>>18081906
Because Gandalf got in the way.

Because he shall not pass.

1) Gandalfs a boss
2) Sauron is more powerful that Balrogs?

>>18081913

Fair enough, but answer the second question

Gandalf and Durin's Bane were both Maiar. We could jump to the conclusion that Balrogs have a slight sense of honor, or are better at threat assessment than the orcs/goblins in the setting and figured that if it smacked gandalf to death it could clean up the rest of the fellowship rather easily and then picked up the ring.

If it had just booked it for Frodo it might have gotten it's shit slapped by Gandalf's magic before it could get it's hand on the ring.

>>18081928

I think the appeal of the ring is meant to be that someone sufficiently powerful may be able to harness it.
Since the Balrog was roughly on an equivalent power level to Gandalf, it's feasible that he might've been able to at least attempt it.

>>18081931
Maybe.
If it wanted to.
But Balrogs aren't intelligent in the same way Sauron is, they're the manifestation of Darkness and Fire. They pretty much just want to kill stuff.
Same way Orcs started out as twisted and perverted Elves.

>>18081946

Sauron is a maiar too, so Durin's Bane might have been able to kick his ass, especially in his weakened form.

so pretty much 'idk, lol'

The ring wouldn't have fit on the balrog's finger.

>>18081975
>But Balrogs aren't intelligent in the same way Sauron is, they're the manifestation of Darkness and Fire. They pretty much just want to kill stuff.

You dumpass, Balrogs are Maia like Gandalf and Sauron. Just because the movie showed it as a big hulking beast doesn't mean that it's not on par intelligence-wise with those two.

>>18082002
If it's so intelligent why did it stay in the mines?
The Balrogs may have started great but they have fallen far.

>>18082012

Hibernating in the deep parts of the earth after the war that deposed morgoth.

>>18082028
Until the dwarves woke it.
Point is that was years ago and it still didn't do shit.

>>18082012
Because it an abandoned Dwarven city-mine filled with goblins to rule. Why go out into the world and likely get your shit kicked in by some hero or whatever if you've got a sure thing going on in Moria?

OP's question is stupid, likely why it was ignored.
The One Ring does not give off some fucking aura of ONE RINGNESS. The only people who knew Frodo had the ring where the people who put it on and the Ringwraiths who are instinctively attracted to it.
If someone told the balrog that Frodo possessed the One Ring, it would first ask what the hell it is, than maybe try to grab it.
With it, yes, it likely could have dethroned Sauron.

>>18082045

Probably what the other dude said. Durin's Bane had a pretty sweet gig before the fellowship just barged into his mine and started making a ruckus. For all we know he was taking a power nap, the dwarves woke him up, he slapped their shit and then went back to taking a power nap.

Or just sat around yelling at goblins all day, one or the other.

>>18082055

Not OP, but my impression was that the ring had a will of its own, and was capable of 'calling out' to anything the ring thought would benefit it.
What, with its tendency to be lost and then found in random places.

>>18082088
And the ring wanted to be taken home.
It knew if the balrog got it Sauron would be destroyed and so would it.

>>18082109

I'm not trying to imply that the ring would have called out to the Balrog, but I'm just saying it does, in a way, have an aura of 'one ringness', even if it is selective.

>>18082047
It was hiding from the Valar.

Unlike Sauron, who was a more subtle power of domination and control, Balrogs were obvious creatures of destruction and fire. A Balrog would've rampaged across the world and been obviously, painfully visible as a power until a trio of ancient elven heroes and a human descendant of whoever, all armed with magic elf swords and maybe even a dwarf with a grudge confronted it, and yeah probably fucking wrecked its shit.

It might've been raising an army of goblins in Moria for the purposes of assaulting the upworlders when Gandalf and his group traipsed through.

Gandalf is notorious for destroying threats to the "good races" as secondary results of his actions.

Smaug was easily a match for the balrog, for instance, in raw power. Smaug could have assaulted Rivendell in the wake of or during an orc incursion, and all would have been dragon fire and dark swords in the elf-held north.

Without Gandalf uniting the elves, dwarves, and men of the north to wipe out both Smaug and nearly every orc of Eriador and the Misty Mountains, there would've been no help for Frodo in Rivendell, Without Rivendell there wouldn't have been a Fellowship.

>>18081982

The ring has been shown to alter its shape and size according to who it wants to wear it.

Gandalf actually couldn't sense the ring, either, so there's no reason to think that the Balrog could.

I think the ring called out to creatures of evil, like a signal for it to be returned to its master, but I think perhaps the Balrog was beyond its call. It was more likely attracted to Gandalf's presence, which may have shone like a beacon, whereas the One Ring was more like an insidious controlling whisper.

I don't think the Balrog could be controlled by the ring.. it is an item of seduction and control, and domination.

>>18082518
uum, an balrog cán stalk people, movies fucked up their porportions.
they are marginally higher than the Noldor of old.

>>18082646
I know you mean in height, but they are creatures of shadow and fire. They are not like Gandalf or Saruman, or even Sauron who can make themselves seem like people. The Balrogs are scourges.

>>18082646
So, that would be like, eight feet?

We can solve this problem with MATHS
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/calculus.htm

I wouldn't say it was trying to get the ring from Frodo. I can't necessarily speak as to its motivations, but they were kind of just in the way more or less.

As for overthrowing Sauron, no. No being could overthrow Sauron by using the ring, because the ring IS Sauron.

>>18084498

So you're saying that basically through the balrog Sauron would take over anyway? It's been a while but I thought I remember Gandalf saying that if he used the ring he would become new dark lord, implying that Sauron would be overthrown.

Because you can't get the ring with an arch angel of magic standing in the way, unless you kill him first.

So the Balrog went for Gandalf.

Alternatively, it didn't know the ring was there.
Or it could not have had any interest in the ring, or Gandalf's ring, and just wanted to beat the shit out of him for fucking over his side in the ancient days.

If Durin's Bane came out then the White Council would have put a mission together to fuck it up like they did with Smaug and the Necromancer. The ring wouldn't call to Durin's Bane because if he got it then it would probably never get to Sauron. The balrog would be too strong to take the ring from and it would have no reason to go anywhere near Mordor.

rolled 20 = 20

>>18084838

This guy has got a good point!

Gandalf had Vanya (or one of the Elvish rings, at the very least, and as I recall the one directly relating to BOOM-type magic). Regardless of how useful the One Ring might have been the Balrog, I'm sure that an Elvish Ring of Power (unsullied by Sauron, remember) might have been a more delicious prize, especially given that Gandalf was still Grey.

Also I'm pretty sure that Gandalf could in fact sense the Ring, but only with the Palantir. He had to hang out with Bilbo all those years, just to keep an eye on it.

Guys.
Guys!
Hey, guys!
What if, like

I mean

GUYS!

What if the Balrog was really an angel, and so was Gandalf, and the angels work in strange, mysterious ways, to further their own goals, and the goals of whoever they've decided to call their masters at the time? Like, what if the Balrog was just taking a nap, and Gandalf sorta managed to kick his hive over, or the plan all along was for Gandalf to assassinate the balrog, so shit wouldn't get fucked up when war eventually hit?

What if the movies have told people what the fuck's really going on, so we'd not have to explain to every single moviegoer that, yes, Gandalf is an angel, and yes, so is Sauron, and Sauroman, and the balrog. Maybe, while they're at it, they shouldn't have added that one scene in the extended versions, where Gandalf gets his staff broken by the fucking witchking in a staredown.

What kind of magic is there in the LOTR series?

What use would a wizard be in combat?

A real wizard, not a mystical being like Gandalf.

>>18084923

A non-Istari wizard would be mostly limited to curses and such, if anything. I remember there being mention of sorcerers in the south but I don't think it was clear whether or not they actually had powers or were basically like real life occultists.

>>18084923

You know that one scene where Gandalf pulls off his veil, and banishes another of the angels from the useless king's body, or anytime Gandalf starts talking really importantly-like ("BILBO BAGGINS! I AM NOT TRYING TO ROB YOU!")? That's what magic does in LoTR.

Didn't Glorfindel kick some Balrog ass way back when?
If Durin's bane got out, Glorfindel could kick his ass.

>>18084908
The maiar basically ARE angels. So yeah. And the rest of your post isn't especially coherent.

>>18084975

That's the joke. Are you new to this site?

>>18084967
So more like very forceful persuasion and such? Kinda neat.

>>18084966
Curse? What else? I know things like a wizard sending out a fireball don't exist in the LOTR universe, but what about stuff that would fit in with the Illusion or Mysticism schools from TES?

>>18084996
I though he was only invoking the meme to add some self-deprecating humor to what he was saying, instead of just joking.

I'll go sit in the corner now.

>>18084999

Yeah, to some extent.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Magic

>>18084999
Gandalf had some pretty wicked enchanted fireworks. And there's all his light-magic-tricks with his staff, like when he drove off the Nazgul on the plains outside Minas Tirith.

>>18085026
>when he drove off the Nazgul on the plains outside Minas Tirith.

I've always wondered about that. Was the light a magical light or was it just light made by magic?

>>18085026
And in the books, his battle with Durin's Bane started with a spell/counterspell fight over magically sealing a doorway. The balrog's counterspell won, the door exploded and Gandalf almost lost the battle there and then.

>>18084999
>I know things like a wizard sending out a fireball don't exist in the LOTR universe,

Why does everyone forget that ha basically can make napalm at will? That's how they survived the worg (wolf?) ambush right before they get to Caradhras.

Speaking of, he also magically makes wet wood burst into flames when they were about to freeze. At the very least, he can manipulate existing fire, if not create some.

>>18085042
Seeing as how the Nazgul were out in broad daylight, I don't think mundane light bothers them that much, even if they preferred darkness.

>>18084999
Persuasion is one of the things, but at the same time they can pull out the wrath of god if shit gets real. The best example of this is when Saruman lays the smack down on Gandalf. Had they both went all out, they would have literally smashed Middle Earth and sunk it into the ocean.

Most of the time though it's background shit, like poisoning air and ground, or sensing other magical shit.

>>18085062
>"If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a path for you," said Legolas. The storm had troubled him little, and he alone of the Company remained still light of heart.

>"If Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us," answered Gandalf. "But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow."

>"I cannot burn snow."

He seems to not be able to create from nothing.

>>18085062
Yeah, when he was Gandalf the Grey, fire was sorta his thing.

Oh, and his ring is Narya, the ring of fire, one of the Three.

>>18085081
SO to put it into modern RPG terms the magic of LOTR is more utility in nature with some damaging effects thrown in for good measure?

>>18084908
>Maybe, while they're at it, they shouldn't have added that one scene in the extended versions, where Gandalf gets his staff broken by the fucking witchking in a staredown.
Agreed. That scene in the movie was awesome and I thought it added tension, but then I started to think about the book and my nerd rage began to rise. JACKSON!!!

>>18085082
But he can still make fire as long as he has fuel, even when it should be nigh-impossible to ignite said fuel, and he certainly can increase the effects of existing fire.

And he seemed to be able to attack the wolves with fire, somehow, not sure if that was magic or what

>>18085081
>Had they both went all out, they would have literally smashed Middle Earth and sunk it into the ocean.
This sounds like hyperbole, especially since that encounter ended with Gandalf captured and imprisoned by a servant of Sauron while he was desperately needed elsewhere to stop the fall of Middle Earth. The fact that he had to call for help and basically sneak out on a giant eagle (instead of just wrecking shit and leaving) pours some cold water on your theory.

>>18085106
Probably trying to capture this

>Gandalf says "Saruman, your staff is broken." -- and the staff split asunder in his hand. (Book III, Chapter 10)

>>18085097
Yeah, utility spells (not just nature, locking doors and scrying and such), with big nuke spells when magic is just let loose

Magic in LoTR gives you command over things.
Gandalf can banish the undead with his voice alone, scares 'evil' creatures, and can set fire to wet wood, make light in caves, and do other cool shit.

It's not defined, because defined magic is very boring.

So has it been addressed how the balrog would even KNOW of the ring?
Remember, he's kinda been under a rock for a few thousand years. He probably doesn't care too much for the goings on in the outside world.

>>18085123
>>18085129
But is this limited to the beings that Gandalf is one of, or can humans learn this magic too?

>>18085120
Great scene, but it's very different (new guy here, haven't seen that extended edition scene being referring to with Gandalf and the witch-king). That scene was Gandalf's final triumph over Saruman, a formal dismissal of Saruman's position among the maiar wizards.

>>18085132

Yes. The answer is that he probably doesn't.

>>18085116
I'm pretty sure Tolkien said something to that effect, but even if I'm wrong and my source is some bullshit someone else peddled, neither fought at their full strength. Not escalating shit to another war of the gods was a pretty big deal for both of them.

>>18085132

He's a creature of magic, who's one of the wisest, most learned beings currently alive. Even if he didn't know about the rings, he'd detect great magic, and figure out that it's something you'd best destroy or capture.

This, however, is never explained in the movies. We're just to assume that the balrog is some random demon who lives in a cave.

>>18085139

The power of god can be bestowed on anyone, but hasn't for a long, long time.

So back in the olden days, there were truly badass elves, but now, they're all mostly dead.

When Gandalf 'dies' (his physical body is torn asunder), he gets empowered by god, who basically makes him a super saiyan angel then and there.

>>18085159
Didn't the Balrogs used to be kind of general types for the BBEG?

>>18085159
>he'd detect great magic

Gandalf didn't realise it was the ONE RING at first. I'm pretty sure Durin's Bane wouldn't be able to do so either.

>>18085172
Generals and shock troopers.

>>18085166
So there isn't someway for men to learn magic, it must be bestowed?

Sorry for the questions, just anxious to learn about the universe.

>>18085132
Huh. The ring *was* forged well after Morgoth's defeat, IIRC, while Sauron was disguised as a good guy master artificer.

But then again, the Balrog wasn't named Durin's Bane until he killed During VI in 1980 of the third age. Gimli was nearly a thousand years after that though. Huh.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Durin

>>18085172

Yes.
They're very, very powerful. Same thing as Gandalf, only working for the evil side.

>>18085159
Of course, the ring most likely would not want to be found by a balrog. It is semi-sentient and it would do its utmost to hide from an enemy it's not sure it could dominate.
Gothmog, lord of the balrogs, was at least as powerful as Sauron back during the height of Melkor.

>>18085166
>who basically makes him a super saiyan angel then and there.

YOU SHALL NOT PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *3 episodes later* AAAAAASS *bulge* *flex* *twitch*

>>18085184

Yeah, all magical powers are something god gives you in LoTR, or you can get them by virtue of being a certain race.

Elves live forever.
Dwarves can always find riches.
You get the idea.

Elves are magical creatures, too. They forged their own rings, remember, and still make very powerful weapons and armor. For instance, THE FLAME OF THE WEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111

Humans aren't granted any magical powers, but are the most badass, because Tolkien invented humanity, fuck yeah.

>>18085184

Sauron taught some of the Black Numenoreans magic.

>>18085189
He was sleeping until Durin woke him up. And as far as we know he's never ventured outside Moria. So, Durin's Bane has only been active for a little over a thousand years. Not long enough to have seen the height of Sauron as dark lord or have been awake for the rings of power.

Tolkien magic for RPGs:
http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/magic/principles.html

>>18085229

He'd probably laugh at Sauron's incompetence. You know, what with having lost his body, the one ring he made to rule the world, and the wizards still running around wrecking things.

>>18085292
Pretty much. If he did find out about the ring, he would probably take it to Mount Doom to destroy it himself.

I love this thread so much.

>>18085312

"What is this shit, you fucking wimp? Orcs? One wizard? MEN!? By the gods, you have fallen. You don't even have your body anymore. Your most powerful followers include dead, human kings, who can't even approach the wizards! Sauron, I am disappoint."

>>18085341
>Sauron, I am disappoint.
This is begging for an image macro, if only I could find the right image.

>>18085220
>Humans aren't granted any magical powers, but are the most badass, because Tolkien invented humanity, fuck yeah.
Yeah, Beren is counted as probably the greatest hero of all time and he got to bang the hottest female that ever existed.

>>18085223
>Black Numenoreans

>>18082125
The ring CANNOT be sensed. It took Gandalf almost a century to figure out it was a ring of power (and the one ring at that). If it could have been sensed, it wouldn't have been lost for a couple of centuries until Gollum found it.
Yes, it has a will of its own, yes it can do stuff like slip off fingers, but it can't easily manipulate people other than its wearer. It can, as shown by boromir, but they had already been travelling together for weeks, and he already thought it should be used.

Btw, I know this sounds rather stupid, but it's been a few years since I read the silmarillion: I thought the Balrogs were just a perverted copy of maiar, like orcs were of elves and trolls of ents, and not actual maiar?

>>18085341
I laughed but Sauron does have a body. Gollum stated that he's missing a finger and sits in his terrible throne. Only the movie made it look like he was a disembodied eye.

>>18085397
No, they were actual maiar who joined Morgoth, but they may have lost some of their shapeshifting ability.

>>18085397
No, they were maiar that decided that "morgoth was a totally swell dude, and I should follow him"

>>18085397

The first 'balrog,' so to speak, corrupted a bunch of others of his kind, and they made up the most powerful forces of the evil side.

Tolkien retconned them slightly over time. You can see this quite easily if you read the books. At first, they were just bad angels, then they become far more terrible and destructive.

>>18085397
>Btw, I know this sounds rather stupid, but it's been a few years since I read the silmarillion: I thought the Balrogs were just a perverted copy of maiar, like orcs were of elves and trolls of ents, and not actual maiar?

Wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balrog

>>18085446
They were always meant to mirror the biblical story of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven.

Because Tolkein was an essayist.

>>18085387

That must be how he got his legendary girlfriend ass-slappin powers

>>18084771
I haven't read any of the extra Middle Earth stuff so this may be wrong, but I always interpreted Sauron from the books as more an entity than a being, so if people like Gandalf or Galadriel took the ring they would essentially be corrupted by his power and become his vessel. So they would "take his place" but really just be a new physical incarnation of Sauron, not a wholly different creature. After all, Sauron's body has been destroyed at least once, and he's still around.

>>18085116
Could be a Jedi type thing where they can't use the full extent of their power without it corrupting them, or they choose not to for appearances or something. Maybe it's considered bad form.

>>18087022

I think they were prohibited by the Valar from using their cosmic powers. So it's either like they have a stopper put on their powers so they can't go SSJ, or they're afraid to because doing so would contradict the Valar and get them in a whole heap of trouble.

>>18087022

It's just common sense.

When they're not disguised, they're burning, blinding light, shadows, fire, and what have you.
If they use their voices, they can command anyone of lower powerlevel to do whatever.
Just from exerting his magic slightly, Gandalf makes Bilbo's house creak and shake.

He also smites the balrog so hard, the impact ruins a mountain top.

If they go at full power, they sink continents.

That, and they're there to guide the lesser races. This seems to be something they're all in agreement over, for some reason. So while Sauron could theoretically go out and get back the ring on his own (one way or another), he's content sitting in his fortress of solitude, so he can make plans that allow the younger races to get it back for him.

Likewise, Gandalf could solo entire armies, but prefers to gather a MASSIVE army instead, then merely blinds the defenders with his magic.

>>18087483

LoTR invented super saiyans.

>>18087563

Screen-capped for posterity.

>And if it got the Ring, would it have been able to overthrow Sauron with it?

No, because the One Ring always works AGAINST the bearer, unless it is held by Sauron

>>18087483
Well the extent of the maia's 'power-levels' is debatable I think; remember, it was the Valar themselves who fucking wrecked Beleriand, not the maiar.

They are really strong though, and Tolkein does state that the Istari could do some really crazy shit, but due to the aforementioned wrecking of an entire landmass the Valar forebade them from doing anything more than trying to rally the people of middle-earth.

This one should be archived,

>>18089296

Even Sauron, the most evil of all evil things conceived, obeys the powerlimiter law, because it's not wise to ruin your world.

I don't know what to say, other than draw the obvious comparison to Cell, and the way they both go about doing things.

>>18084999
>I know things like a wizard sending out a fireball don't exist in the LOTR universe

...Actually. Saruman fires off a fireball at Gandalf, when they parley after the Battle of the Hornburg.

>>18089342
See, I'm not so sure about that. The real 'evil of evils', Melkor, DID fuck up the world, but it was in a more subtle way by messing with the creation process. I think this indicates that he was willing to cause mass destruction on Arda even though he was seeking to dominate as well. However, even when he was about to be completely defeated and sealed away by the Valar, he didn't try break any continents or anything crazy like that, which he probably would have if he was able to.

The only continent-destroying that takes place was when Beleriand was destroyed as a result of ALL the Valar and Maiar fighting Morgoth in the most destructive war in Middle-Earth, and when THE God of Middle-Earth (the Valar's boss) sank Numenor, and that only after he was begged to by the Valar.

So yeah, I don't think the Maiar would be able to do something that the most powerful being in Tolkein's universe was required to do

>>18089312

Archive request put in. 1 of 4.

This thread is awesome and you should all feel awesome.

>>18090038

Where do I go to vote?

>>18089753
Eru didn't just sink Numenor. He literally reshaped the entire cosmos.

>>18089753
Also, the thing with Morgoth is that by the time he was sealed away, he had invested too much of his essence in Arda itself to be powerful enough to destroy continents. Only God (or Eru or what-have-you) is able to just create stuff infinitely. Other beings need to use their own energy to do so. Which is why Sauron is actually kinda better then Morgoth at the whole dark lord thing. He just goes and forms armies of existing entities rather then creating them from nothing and thus using up his own essence.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html

Vote the thread up there.

>>18090229
WHELP you ruined it, I hope you all enjoy your round planet now.

>>18090566
YOU TRY INVADE HEAVEN? FUCK YOU, HAVE GORRAM ROUND PLANET IN SPACE NOW!