From what I can tell, goblins were closely associated with fairies and trolls in European folklore, and were sort of pests or bestial creatures.

So, not much change from the original lore to today.

There's an odd phenomenon with mythical creatures, where they seem to physically shrink as a culture stops believing in them. Tengu, fairies, trolls, they all get smaller and less threatening in their stories as belief fades.

>>17037897

So, goblins are just smaller, less important fairies? but didn't people beleive in goblins and proper fairies at the same time?

>>17037897
Or maybe the man just gets bigger.

OP, "goblin" was originally a catch-all term for supernatural beings. It wasn't any specific creature, it was a generic term for things that were dangerous, unknown and beyond our human world. The idea of them as diminutive pointy-eared occasionally green-skinned weak creatures are a product of Tolkien equalling "goblin" with "orc" and then D&D taking that and running with it, making goblins the weaker form of orcs.

so maybe we can have a setting where the goblins are mischievous/sometimes evil kind of fae instead of smaller orcs?

>>17037942
>>17037974

Well, it's interesting. While, yes, "goblin" was a general catchall initially, over time it began to gather a more general definition; even before LotR the idea of goblins as diminutive, mischievous supernatural creatures was established. Hell, just consider the word "hobgoblin." Hobgoblins were household spirits who were generally considered helpful. The very name serves to set them apart from "goblins" by using a prefix that denotes a particular KIND of goblin.

In Scotland, fairies were divided into "Seelie" and "Unseelie." Seelie were more or less friendly, Unseelie were hostile. In Ireland, fairies were divided into "solitary" and "trooping" fairies. Trooping fairies were the noble, human sized type who travel in groups, live in societies. Solitary fairies were fairy beings normally encountered alone, like leprechauns. The funny thing is, there's some overlap here; solitary fairies were often more hostile on rule of thumb than trooping fairies. "Goblin" would more often be applied to a hostile, solitary fairy than anything else.

In fact, a number of writers have extended this into a class distinction; trooping/Seelie fairies are the nobility, the upper class. Unseelie/solitary fairies are the working class. I think it'd be interesting to take this further, using "goblin" as a term for coarser, lesser fairies who fix shoes or act like bandits, or work the fields, etc.

>>17038081

I'm picturing a bunch of working class goblins having a drink at the pub after a long day's labor. Alternatively, a peasant's revolt of goblins all wielding farm implements and besieging the noble fairies' castle of glass.

>>17038168

I assume they'd be magic farming implements.

>>17038168

And I'm picturing Morris-dancing goblins. It isn't pretty.

I dunno, I always thought you could sort of do a "Borrowers" vibe with Goblins, living in the walls and floors of human houses, stealing stuff to survive, sometimes playing pranks on the humans.

>>17038081
>>17038321

Problem is, in gaming most monsters/supernatural creatures exist to get stabbed in the face by adventurers. Borrower-goblins or faerie working class goblins are great fluff, but add little for the players to actually DO.

Although Borrower-goblins could make for a good campaign, if the players WERE the goblins.

bump

Hell, even if you wanted to leave goblins as flesh and blood monsters, you could spice them up by giving them some special abilities. Make them master pickpockets, give them the ability to appear and disappear like Batman, maybe give them some modest glamour magic.

Tolkien has Orcs and Goblins. Orcs are the smaller, sneaky crawl on walls ones

Backwards up the mossy glen
Turned and trooped the goblin men,
With their shrill repeated cry,
"Come buy, come buy."
When they reached where Laura was
They stood stock still upon the moss,
Leering at each other,
Brother with queer brother;
Signalling each other,
Brother with sly brother.
One set his basket down,
One reared his plate;
One began to weave a crown
Of tendrils, leaves, and rough nuts brown
(Men sell not such in any town);
One heaved the golden weight
Of dish and fruit to offer her:
"Come buy, come buy," was still their cry.
Laura stared but did not stir,
Longed but had no money:
The whisk-tailed merchant bade her taste
In tones as smooth as honey,
The cat-faced purr'd,
The rat-paced spoke a word
Of welcome, and the snail-paced even was heard;
One parrot-voiced and jolly
Cried "Pretty Goblin" still for "Pretty Polly";
One whistled like a bird.

>>17038675

In the movies. In the books, "goblin" is more or less synonymous with "orc."

>>17038675

Wait, what? In the books, neither orcs or goblins crawl on walls. In the movies, the creatures climbing on the walls are explicitly called goblins, and have slight physical differences from the orcs.

Your definition is wrong either way.

Angels and ministers of grace defend us!
Be thou a spirit of health or goblin damn’d,
Bring with thee airs from heaven or blasts from hell,
Be thy intents wicked or charitable,
Thou com’st in such a questionable shape
That I will speak to thee: I’ll call thee Hamlet,
King, father; royal Dane, O!

>>17038698

Christina Rossetini, "The Goblin's Market," right?

I say steal a page from Minecraft, and have goblins kidnap children, with the added bonus that they have magical unguents and salves that they can use to turn a young child into another goblin.

>>17038762
Indeed!

Gotta love that Lizzie and Laura:

>She cried "Laura," up the garden,
>"Did you miss me ?
>Come and kiss me.
>Never mind my bruises,
>Hug me, kiss me, suck my juices
>Squeezed from goblin fruits for you,
>Goblin pulp and goblin dew.
>Eat me, drink me, love me;
>Laura, make much of me:
>For your sake I have braved the glen
>And had to do with goblin merchant men."

>>17037845
Redcaps. Goblins, which stood at about the height of a tall man, and lived in abandoned forts or watchtowers near roads.

They got their name from their bright red caps, which they dyed in the fresh blood of their victims, usually waylayed travelers whom they had slain.

>>17038875

It's odd that there's lots of definitions for TYPES of goblin (in the sense of a small, mischievous/hostile fairy), like Redcaps, Hobgoblins, Boggarts, etc, but there's no baseline definition for a goblin.

Still, Redcaps are a little difficult to spin into a race, since they live alone in distant ruins and are only notable for being homicidal.

bump

>>17038892
Not that odd, really; folklore defies taxonomy.

It's only when you get to scholastic mysticism do beasties start getting categorized, such as angelic hierarchies or divine bureaucracies.

I remember part of a thread a while back that fluffed goblins as a vaguely Southeast Asian-ish culture with an affinity for binding spirits to things.

That was kinda interesting.

>>17038892
Redcaps are now the Parliamentarian rebels who want an end to the monarchy in Fairy Land.

The 'Murdering Everything They See' thing is just propaganda put forth by the Monarchists.

The Parliamentarians always claim the Royal Navy are Kelpies so its not like they can complain.

Also Nuckalavee (pic related) is a fairy biological weapon that both sides accuse the other of releasing.

>>17038892

Just frickin' once I'd like to see hobgoblins as a friendlier and/or smaller kind of goblin. That's what they were originally considered, wasn't it?

>>17039020
The Orcadians have some really, really creepy folklore. How they hell do they sleep at night?

>>17039020

Or Red Caps could just be goblins who have turned to banditry. I mean, there's lots of stories about dwarfs/goblins/elfs/etc with magical caps/hoods/cloaks, often that make them invisible. Maybe the cap is magical and DOES something, but has to be powered by human blood.

Oh, hey, I know. Redcaps are often mentioned as wearing iron boots, meaning they're one of the few fairies that are not harmed/warded off by iron. The cap is what protects them, but has to be "fueled" by mortal blood.

As I see it used, goblins are pretty much faeries. Main difference being they aren't as classy and orderly as the other troupes. Think that Unseelies were a peasant or outlaw caste. On the first, they are simpler and more coarse, and on the second, they are highway robbery mythified.

>What other models are there we could spin fluff/lore out from?
I called them faelings, gave them something like Burning Wheel's Grief, giving the whole red oni blue oni dichotomy. The more trauma and violence one suffers, they end up looking scarred and fierce, with greater strength.

So on one side you end up with the Courts, which try to eke out some territory, have stratified roles, and where being Scarred is seen as a tragedy. On the other there are the Tribes, who are fighting for survival and thus see being Scarred as the sign of sacrifice and strength, with some clans rearing their children explicitly for Scarring as a warrior caste.

>>17039045
Maybe they build up an immunity to iron through exposure to trace amounts in mortal blood.

>>17039023

Actually, they were more specific in their role; they were household spirits.

Household spirits crop up throughout European folklore, from Spain to Russia. Usually, it's a sort of spirit that lives in your house and does minor chores in return for offerings of food or drink, or some symbolic item. they do the chores supernaturally fast and efficiently, though the payoff is sometimes they play harmless pranks on the humans they serve. There's often rules associated with them, like you have to not enter one room once a year, or you have to never try to see them, or never offer them clothes, or something. If you break these rules the household spirit either leaves forever, or becomes enraged. An enraged household spirit's pranks may become deadly, or it may produce poltergeist-style mayhem, and it may follow you even if you move out of the house.

I made Gnomes an evolution of small apes and Goblins are flesh golems made of Gnome parts...

>>17039045
>>17039076

Here's a thought. Earlier, we discussed goblins as the peasants/working class of faerie. Maybe Redcaps are goblins who chaffed under the rule of the noble fairies and rebelled, or committed some crime, and had to flee to the mortal world, hiding out in ruins and lonely places. To survive, they use the red caps to limit their vulnerability to iron, allowing them to use iron against any fairies sent to pursue them.

>>17039103
There is nothing magical about the shape of the horseshoe, but iron is iron.

>>17039103
I actually really like this. So Red Cap isn't a species, it's a political affiliation, a la Roundheads and Cavaliers.

>>17039139

Well, it could also be an escape. Goblins might become redcaps not out of political motivations, but for the same reason any human might become a bandit or outlaw. Some of them might enjoy it, some of them might view it as an escape, some of them might view it as a means to an end.

>>17039156

I'm now imagining "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly," set in Fairyland, with all the outlaws being goblins/Redcaps.

>>17039181

You know, if I ever get back to GMing C:tD, I'm stealing this plot. Either that, or making a campaign based on every spaghetti western ever.

>>17039181

Man, Tuco's half way there already.

Burrow Jack ran faster than his stunted legs could bear; he was almost out of magic, and the Highborn's Hunters were slavering ever closer.

But the Border was in sight. He had to make it.

he old goblin slipped on a patch of wet moss, falling to the ground with a muffled curse. Their forest was against him, he knew, and Their eyes were everywhere. He pulled himself up with a grunt, then gave a shriek as he tried to run forward. A great, black vine twisted around his ankle, tendrils sinking into his flesh, eager for a taste before the Hunt found him.

Burrow Jack used the last of his magic to burn the root off of his leg, but he knew it was no good. The Hunters, creatures of shadow and appetite, were within sight, now. They were in the trees and under the ground, whispering to themselves. Now and then he caught sight of a flashing tooth, a red claw, a soulless eye.

Burrow Jack was no coward. If he was to perish there, on the very threshold of freedom, so be it. He would show the Highborn and their pets how well a goblin could die. The shadows drew ever closer, circling him, grinning. Burrow Jack stood up as straight as he could, and held up his fists.

>>17039461

A Hunter leaped through the earth, knocking him off of his feet. What happened next Jack would never forget, because just as the monster struck at him, a flash of red tore through the dark like bloodstained lightning.

Jack heard a deafening war whoop too rough to come from a Highborn throat, and at once he saw a dozen bodies fly through the air, and heard a dozen sickening cracks as one. A red-capped goblin warband armed with iron cudgels had crossed the border, and their wrath was swift.

The Hunters, unused to retaliation, stuttered and flickered like black candle flames. Their siblings lay dead on the ground, solid and bleeding, their skulls crushed. Before they could collect themselves, the goblins struck again. Burrow Jack crumpled to the ground, covering his ears to drown out the eldritch shrieks and moaning of the dying.

>>17039474

After the battle had ended, Jack was roused with a sharp kick to his back with an iron shoe. Trembling, he looked up to see his saviours.

The goblin who had kicked him grinned maliciously with long yellow teeth. "We lost a man to get you, faerie-slave," he hissed, "A good joke! Lots of blood!"

"I, I didn't ask to be saved," Jack whimpered, "I was ready to die!"

A heavy-set young goblin pushed Long-Teeth to the side, glaring. "We don't care for your death-wish, ducky. We care for your hands and your back and your honor. You owe us two lives, your own and Black Tom's." The fat goblin thrust a red cap at Jack, who cowered. "You'll get us that other life, duck. You'll live free of the Highborn and safe from their slaves, but you'll always belong to us."

Jack reluctantly donned the cap. It tingled weirdly on his scalp. "But how do I get you another life?"

The fat goblin smirked, and handed Jack a cudgel.

"With this, duck. With this."

>>17039461
>>17039474
>>17039492

Nicely done!

While I was out buying groceries, I had a few more thoughts to contribute to this thread. Namely, why do the Trooping Fairies need the goblins? After all, faerie magic can do all the menial labor. And yet an answer lept into my head.

Ever heard of Spriggans?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spriggan

They're a type of goblin tasked with creating changelings, stealing human babies and replacing them with illusions or withered old goblins who impersonate the children. They also sometimes act as guardians of barrow mounds that serve as gateways into faerie.

So, here it is. The Trooping Fairies need human children for something. Either they are a dying race and need human blood to strengthen them, or maybe they're operating on the legend that fairies had to make a yearly tithe to Hell (or somewhere else beyond faerie), and rather than submit any of their own number they send humans instead.

Either way, they need goblins to go into the mortal world and fetch back human children. This is the essential peasant work they do.

>>17039592
Tithe to Hell doesn't see much use these days, but I always thought it was a pretty solid concept. We could swap Hell for any other Undefined Plane of Badness, depending on the setting.

>>17039461
>>17039474
>>17039492

I really like the use of the Wild Hunt, but may I make a suggestion? Like Spriggans mentioned above, there was another faerie creature tasked with stealing human children, and like the Redcap it's from Scotland.

The Cu Sith was a huge Fairy hunting dog, the size of an ox, with shaggy bright green hair braided and knotted into strange patterns (I always liked to imagine it looking a bit like Celtic knotwork, and the dogs looking a bit like Scottish deerhounds, pictured here).

THEY are why the most common Redcap weapon is a halberd or pike.

>>17039652

Actually, I was going to suggest they're paid to the rulers of Giant Country, where man-flesh is considered a bit of a delicacy...

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16908940/

>>17039696
This is an awesome idea. I like the Fair Folk appeasing Giant masters.

>>17039668
If I do more writing tonight, I'll keep them in mind.

I really like the idea of a goblin peasant revolt, possibly instigated by the Redcaps. The Faerie high up muckity-mucks may have powerful magic up in their castles of silver and glass, but there's a lot more goblins then there are faeries.

Imagine hordes of goblins attacking the walls. Goblin shovels that dig invasion tunnels by themselves, explosives made from goblin whiskey, wielding scythes, bill-hooks, flails, pitchforks, all enchanted in some fashion with good ol' rustic goblin-magic.

>>17039762
If we go with the faeries-as-ruled-by-giants idea, this could also be a big chance for serious diplomatic maneuvering; the giants don't care who's in charge as long as they're fed, so they stay out of the civil war until one side convinces them to ally.

>>17039762

Wasn't there a thread long ago where someone suggested that all elven empires were built on the backs of goblin slaves?

>>17039840

I think it's not so much that the giants rule the faeries as it is the noble fairies pay them tribute to bribe them into not raiding Fairyland.

>>17039879
Fair enough. I still think the giants would be inclined to side with whoever offered them better tribute, but I imagine they'd wait until both sides were really desperate before coming down on one faction or another. Their favour would, naturally, decide the war... if they could be convinced to act.

The sun was setting as the goblin climbed up the rocky hill, and it glinted like fire on his still-damp cap. It was dusk and he didn’t have long. Soon the mounds would be opening. Iron boots were dragged up then heavily placed in footholds. Sinewy, strong, and clawed hands grasped at stones or tussocks of heather. The sound of metal jangling came from the sack slung over his back, and he grunted softly.

He crested the hill and loped towards the ruins, clambering up the old masonry. At the summit, he looked out into the valley below, and listened. He heard the wind as it blew through the heather, felt it blast his weathered face. There was the distant call of a peregrine, winging home to its roost before nightfall. Fall down in the valley, he saw the lights of the village flickering on, though he knew it would be ages before they found the dead man on the road out of town.

A howl broke the goblin’s train of thought. It came from out on the moors, and in the distance he briefly thought he saw a golden light amongst the distant mounds and barrows there. The howl was answered by another. The goblin reached down into a cleft in the ruined tower, and hauled out his pike with one hand. With the other he set down his bag, flipping it open and rummaging within. He plucked out the horseshoes he had stolen from the village, and stacked them neatly by a pile of stones he and arraigned previously.

The great big green bastards were going to have trouble with him, oh yes.

>>17039966

Well, I think valiant as their efforts are, and despite the fury of the redcaps, the goblins would still lose. Their fairy masters are just too strong, which is precisely WHY the giants have never invaded in force. Neither side thinks its worth it, but the giants know the fairies aren't powerful enough to retaliate, so the fairies elect to buy them off.

Still, I'm sure there'd be a Redcap William Wallace or two ready to go out in a blaze of glory.

"Fuck those fucking elves!"

>>17040089
Ah, beat me to it.

>>17040413

Hey, if you've got one go ahead and post it

Burrow Jack was getting used to running for his life. It was, by now almost routine.

The Highborn had sent great, green dogs this time, ones that Jack was learning had almost been bred to think like goblins; they knew every hole to hide in, every street where children played, every fen and glen and hill.

They were big as the calm-eyed oxen that mortals kept, but they moved like smoke, silently and fluidly, their only sound an occasional (yet terrifiying) baying; mortals locked their doors and hid their children, but it was goblin flesh the hounds wanted.

Jack had been on patrol with Fat Calum that night, armed to their pointed teeth with crude iron weapons, but it wasn't enough to keep the hounds away. Calum wasn't worried, flitting just ahead of Jack, graceful as a soap bubble with his own magic. Jack still hadn't mastered using any kind of magic with so much iron around, something that amused Calum endlessly.

“Keep up, ducky! Spread your wings and fly or die!” the other goblin cackled. Jack groaned and shivered as three horrible barks rang our again. He couldn't tell how close they were-- maybe a mile away, maybe half that much-- but he knew Calum was far too arrogant for his own good. They were being chased by the some worst the Faerie kennels had to offer, not mere shadows.

A high-pitched shriek and gurgling ahead of him brought Jack back to reality. Calum had been caught! Jack fumbled with his own magic, urging his legs to move faster.

MORE GOBLINS

>>17040610
On instinct, Jack fell to his knees and crawled through scrub that Calum must have leapt over. Following a string of old curses as they rang out through the night, Jack saw Calum standing amazingly over the corpse of a green hound, one hand to his bleeding throat, on on his halberd, waving it desperately at another monstrous dog.

Jack was paralyzed with fear; the dog smelled like old, cruel magic, and he knew Calum was as good as dead.

The fat goblin croaked out a war cry and lunged at the second hound, but it was too fast, too fast. It dodged as Calum fell uselessly on his face, without even enough magic to counteract his weight. Calum screamed a dozen forgotten insults at the creature as it batted at him with a paw, sniffing and growling lowly.

“I got your brother, pup! You can't get him back even if you--!” Calum was silenced as the dog sank its teeth into his belly.

“This is what becomes of deserters, little goblin,” a soft, mellifluous voice whispered in Jack's mind.

The Highborn.

>>17040630
In his mind's eye, Jack saw a tall, impossibly white-skinned man with laughing blue eyes. Jack saw the man smiling at him even as he saw Calum being torn apart.

“While we are disinclined to forgive, tonight we feel merciful. You will live this night, little goblin. You will live, and you will tell your brothers-in-arms what you saw. We would have you know what despair truly is, before you die.”

The dog vanished with its master's voice. Jack struggled to his feet, and ran to what was left of Calum.

The fat goblin's head lay face down in a shallow pool pink with blood. Jack gingerly picked it up, hands shaking with rage and fear. He looked down at the dead green hound that Calum had taken with him.

“I'll tell them,” he whispered, “I'll tell them what I saw. I'll tell them what you did. And I'll tell them what we'll do to every bastard back in Faerie.”

>>17040649

Time to make a tooth necklace!

Originally, goblin, kobold, and gnome were all the same creature in different languages. Small, humanoid fairies that live underground and have great magical powers, with an outlook toward human that ranges from benign to malevolent.

I tend to depict goblins in my games are more painfully stupid and cowardly than they are evil. they won't torture or murder for fun, they'll poke it with a stick to see what happens. they're a threat in that they breed quickly, are quick to panic for how tiny they are so they're quick to stab something than reason with it, and incredibly wasteful and take whatever they want so they eat up all the resources and environment around them

if they're in your way, they'll likely try to rob or stick you just cuz they're panicked idiots non-stop. if someone strong enough to make them think he could kill them all (say random evil mage), they'll stop pissing themselves long enough to swear to do whatever he says because he could kill them better than the other guys could

>>17040666

Actually, gnomes are though to be an invention of the 16th century alchemist Paracelsus.

>>17040689

Really? I could have sworn I'd read about them being in earlier British fairy stories. Are you sure he didn't use the name from something older?

>>17040700

Pretty sure. The name first appeared in his writing, and nobody's ever been able to figure out a definitive etymology for it.

Paracelsus also created the concept of Elementals, and described gnomes as the elementals of Earth. Given how he describes them, he seems to be drawing on elements of mythical dwarfs/kobolds/goblins, but gnomes are thought to be entirely his creation.

I've done something different with goblin(oid)s in my setting, but then, they may not even count as goblins anymore.

They're a species with biological castes, like social insects. Goblins are the workers and foragers, bugbears are the soldiers, hobgoblins are the administrators. Hags are the only female goblinoids, and they give birth to the rest.

They're militaristic and expansionist, but are reasonably okay overlords once you've been conquered. Its definitely possible to ally with or even befriend a goblin, but their race in general tends toward imperialism.

So, what should goblins be doing when they're NOT rebelling or being Redcaps? What's the Goblin Market entail, for example? If goblins are working class fairies, farmers and smiths and what not, then is it like a Farmer's Market? What gets sold there?

And what about goblin-magic? What makes it unique?

Houndtooth Jack couldn't help but laugh, now. It had all seemed so easy when he had taken his new name. Everything had been so simple. He laughed again, and spat up what might have been part of a lung.

The Red Caps had killed humans by scores, more than they ever had before. They crept beyond the forgotten castles and lonely roads and into villages and towns, taking anyone unlucky enough to be unprotected by old laws. People cowered in their houses, afraid to walk the streets at night, barely consoled by the sun. No-one knew what happened to the poor souls who disappeared without a trace, but the grey-haired people said old prayers and touched iron whenever they could.

The blood made them strong. Jack knew he was a monster, now, even more than when he'd stolen children for the Highborn, but he had told himself that it would all be worth it. The blood made them strong; it was their shield.

They'd gone recruiting whenever they could, finding other goblins who'd escaped, but did not yet live by murder. They'd cajoled an threatened together an army.

>>17040904
>And what about goblin-magic? What makes it unique?

Well, If goblins are working class fairies, I imagine that their magic is itself kind of rustic. If you read folk stories, you can get an idea for the sort of magic peasants thought was interesting, and it's often practical magic. Tools enchanted to work on their own, tables enchanted to produce food, boots enchanted so one step takes you seven leagues.

>>17040958

They'd tried to find stronger allies. Envoys were sent all across Britain, some to the hags (who were kind enough to send their skins back) some to the water-horses (who were not) and some even to the few giants that chose to live among men. Houndtooth Jack had stared up into the face of Jack-In-Irons himself and lived, and he had almost left with an ally.

Houndtooth Jack laughed again. Giants, he now knew, were the equals of the Highborn. But even they couldn't lay siege to Faerie and live. A few young, arrogant giants had chosen to fight under the banner of the Red Caps, but all were now dead or dying.

Arcadian splendor burned all around him. They'd made the Highborn feel this, oh yes. For all their magic, then and there their castled were toppled and their fields were blasted.

Houndtooth Jack's army was still fighting, but they were losing, and they knew it. They did not run. They taught the Highborn that free goblins died standing.

>>17040987

“Why?” a tall, impossibly white-skinned woman with cruel blue eyes asked him. “Why did you do this? We will heal our lands in time. You die for nothing, goblin. Your brothers and sisters die for nothing!”

Lying in a ditch, feeling his exposed innards dry in the heat of the fae sun, Houndtooth Jack, once called Jack Burrow, grinned a bloody grin at the Highborn lady.

“Not for nothing, you beautiful bitch. Not for nothing. Something like you can't understand what we've done here and now, but men and goblins can. I will die here, and I will be unmourned for the nightmare that I have made myself.

“But you will always remember the day that Fairyland burned.”

>>17041008

And they they turned him to stone, so all goblins would remember him in his last moments, and the pain he died in. The goblins remembered, but they remembered something more than just the pain.

And, because this is a fairy tale, they all lived happily ever after!

Oh wait, they didn't. Uh... let's try...

And if they are not dead, they are living still!

Whoops, no, they're all dead. Uh. The End, I guess.

A thought. What if, during a goblin rebellion, they went to a dwarf kingdom (in itself a sort of otherworld like Fairyland or Giant country) and tried to buy enchanted iron to fight the fairies with?

A thread about friendly goblins and no one has mentioned the comic Goblins Life Through Their Eyes?

For shame

>>17041208
Melty faces, and "I AM SO SAD!!!!": The Comic

>>17041208

Uh, friendly goblins? In case you haven't noticed, the last few stories have been about goblins using the blood of slaughtered humans to fuel a war against the Fair Folk. There's nothing very friendly about them.

The thread is about trying to come up with a totally new base model for goblins. That comic is about being the opposite of traditional fantasy Tolkienian goblins, which is something different.

>>17041208

Nobody mentions it for a goddamn reason.

bump

So, Goblin professions:

Redcap (outlaw)
Spriggan (professional baby thief)
Hobgoblin (human servant)
Leprachaun (shoemaker)
Clurichaun (Drunken deadbeat)

Any others?

>>17041599
Bugbears and brownies spring to mind.

>>17041621

Brownie is basically just the Scottish term for a hobgoblin. Bugbear is a bit amorphous; it just means something scary, like a nightmare. It's supposed to suggest a big hairy monster, the sort of thing I child might imagine is hiding under the bed. It really has no connection to goblins outside of D&D.

Bugbears=Builders.
Brownies=Farmers.
Silphs=Messengers.
Changeling=Adopted.

Only british goblins or the others of around the world are cool too?

Goblin and Orc are two Old English creatures in folklore.

A goblin is a sprite like creature who enjoys mischief, but also can help people when they can.

An Orc is akin to a forest Demon, a foul creature that eats the flesh of men.

>>17041654

Sylph I think is Greek and means a type of nymph. Bugbears have never bee very well defined. Brownies are house spirits, not field spirits.

At any rate, I think Pixies are sometimes depicted as somewhat goblinish, and they're more associated with the fields.

>>17041239
Simply put, Goblins of old fairy tales were rather harmless but tricky bastards, liked playing pranks and such.

What do you think about the PF goblins?

Like, sure, subversions of the typical image of goblins is cool and all, but I feel the PF goblins are the vile, tiny pests version done right.

That's on ogre they are fighting in the pic, right?

>>17041666
>An Orc is akin to a forest Demon, a foul creature that eats the flesh of men.

Uh, no it isn't "Orc" derives from "orcneas," which is a general term that can mean demon, ogre, goblin, or evil spirit. It's used for Grendel in "Beowulf" for example, but also used as a general term more or less synonymous with "monster." The word "orcneas" is thought to perhaps ultimately derive from Latin "orcus" a name for a cthonic deity, and also the root word for "ogre."

"Ork" is a word that actually has some meaning in folklore. It refers to a sea monster in the Medieval romance of Orlando, having no connection with goblins, coming from a different root word that is related to "orca." "Ork" is also the name for a minor Tyrolean mountain goblin, of which there is very little literature.

>>17041708
Tyrolean? Tell me moar.

They were one of the races created by a God of War, had a magnificent, martial civilization and a nigh unstoppable war machine, then were stricken stupid by another god, and they've regressed to the point that they no longer even remember their written language, though writings from prominent goblin warriors, wizards, poets, and the like are still scattered in ancient tombs.

Goblins themselves as they are today lost their warmongering ways with their intelligence, and are generally prone to mischief with outsiders when not simply harmlessly xenophobic (IE moving away with the strange tall pink thing moves closer)

>>17041740
Your blending of historical etymology and utter bullshit disturbs me.

>>17041739

I wish I could. There definitely seems to be some connection to ogres. In Italy, the word for ogre is "orco." In a Medieval romance about the hero Dietrich von Berne, the Alps are said to be ruled by a great ogre king named "Orkis." And the Tyrol is part of the Alps.

As for the "ork," though, I know very little. It is a bit like a Kobold in German folklore, alternately described as a wild spirit that lives in the woods and sometimes helps humans (or jumps on their backs and rides them like an aufhocker), or is sometimes described as a helpful household spirit like a hobgoblin/brownie.

At best for the classifications of this thread "ork" could probably mean a hobgoblin who works out in the frontier/boonies. Maybe in a lumberjack camp or something.

>>17041766

I think you responded to the wrong post.

>>17041766

Oh, I thought this was a "how do you like your Goblins" thread rather than a "CHART THE EVOLUTION OF THIS IDEA OVER A PERIOD OF HUNDREDS OF YEARS IN PURE RESEARCH" thread.

In that case I'll take my Everquest-esque goblins elsewhere.

>>17041855

Dude, I'm pretty sure he meant to respond to >>17041708

Homo ergaster definitely went through some adaptive radiation on Earth #4 during the Pleistocene. one branch became the trolls of Eurasia, losing intelligence in favor of sheer brute strength and jaw power. Homo heidelbergensis in turn underwent rapid evolution due to the pressure exerted by the trolls - after the latter drove most of the bears to extinction due to competition for the same niche. The neandertal body plan flickered briefly in the Fertile Crescent yet never found any ground in Europe, instead changing into the much burlier dwarf body plan in the Alps and spreading from there. Yet the troll was not the only threat to be found.

An entirely different descendant of the now-extinct ergaster lineage had come into being in France, right at the edge of the ice cap. Goblins are still fond of Acheulean technology - unlike the copper-working dwarves - but their bonfires are much sought after by dwarfkind, as the ashes often produce fire truffles, a delicacy worth more than the metals so often fought over. The goblins, for their part, despise intruders and have even managed to form a sort of mutual symbiosis with the pine needle-devouring ogres, a folivorous cousin capable of tearing a dwarf's arm off with no effort.

The goblins might become a vague memory to the dwarves should the latter grow sick of battling the shrieking primitives and their puny spear-sticks.

>>17041967

...Cave D&D?

>>17041967

>>17041967
>>17041987

Caves & Megafauna

>>17041855
>>17041842

Oops, my bad.

>>17041967
Ey, its cool, continue please.

>>17042064

Incidentally, what fault do you find with my explanation of the etymology?

>>17041967
I still love to imagine that H. heidelbergensis was still around when Julius Caesar wrote the Conquest of Gaul.

>>17042078
I thought that

>>17041740

was a response to

>>17041739

Told you; my bad, not yours.

>>17042073
O-okay, here I go!

In terms of appearances, goblins are a stout race, an adaptation to their chilly home. Their limbs are of equal length, despite not being habitual quadrupeds. Dwarves have the same trait for fist-walking through their tunnels, but goblins are adapted so for traversing the canopy of their forested homes - once the home of the short-lived neandertals. Interestingly enough, goblins are devoid of both forehead and chin. Unlike us, they still use their jaws for a lot of functions, such as treating animal skins and combat. Their brain sits directly behind their face, another trait they share with dwarves. Unlike dwarves, however, goblins are not good at close combat, favoring the use of flimsy sticks with sharpened ends; their fertility makes this a fine tactic, as sheer numbers make a rain of spears possible.

The use of fire is quite possibly the only thing that has kept the goblins alive thus far. Trolls fear the thing, despite their enormity and thick hides. Fire-hardening their spears has made them more potent than the dwarves expected, so the few truffle raids undertaken have taken a toll on the dwarves, however slight.

>>17042234
A cool setting can get started from this. More good sir.

>>17042234
The average goblin nose is broad and has a convex bridge that reached a prominent brow ridge, either nostril producing a glorious outpouring of nasal hairs for heat retention. Goblin hair can be any shade of red, blonde or brown, and in general is frizzy yet thick. It grows upon their upper backs and shoulders as well as the scalp. Social grooming means that their spoken language is limited to several basic terms, syntax being nonexistent. This doesn't mean they're stupid, however; the use of toxic weeds on spearpoints is one trait picked up by the Po River Culture and spreading westward fast.

Each Culture is a territory maintained by a strict hierarchy of males, patrolled regularly for food and protection against rival Cultures. Females have a rank equal to that of their highest-ranking son; the alpha male's mother tends the bonfire that forms the heart of the territory while everyone else roams about their business in search of food, sex, whatever. But they always come back together (seemingly at random) to reassert their dominance and groom. But the bonfire sits at the heart of it all, the ashes toppling off its sides as food for the truffles growing nearby.

>>17042331
What about the ogres, you say? They're big, gassy, not-very-sassy and overly fond of pine needles and cones. Then again, they're caught in the same evolutionary trap that caught the gorillas, the pandas, the koala bears and the koala lemurs: folivory. Leaves are generally low in energy and require *a lot* of processing, which involves lots of energy. Energy that must be taken from elsewhere in the body. Leaves are very easy to find (this surprises some people), so a brain isn't a priority for a folivore. Koala bears, for example, have a brain that doesn't fill the entire brain pan.

Ogres are considerably weak when it comes to cognitive functions, unlike their Homo ergaster ancestors. They have big wobbly guts for fermenting needles and cones, but they can thankfully eat other kinds of leaves as well as ferns and sometimes small animals. However, the ogre harems that loitered in the foresty gloom would have been all eaten by trolls by now if it weren't for the goblins and their use of fire. Strangely enough, ogres show no fear of the bonfires and enjoy the truffles growing under the blown-about ashes. The alliance between the two ape species started off the same way we befriended the first dogs-to-be, an uneasy closing of personal space that eventually proved fruitful against the enterprising dwarves. A dwarf in copper and jade armor can easily kill a coterie of goblins, but an ogre defending his turf is an altogether different matter.

>>17042331
>Social grooming means that their spoken language is limited to several basic terms, syntax being nonexistent.

Just a minor gripe here, if this is being written as an objective out-of-character synopsis, if there is enough language for "basic terms" to show up, then there's a syntax. Syntax is just how the words work together, not a sign of "advanced" language or not.

If these explanations are an in-character researcher's notes, then disregard.

>>17042427
Ogres are to goblins what war elephants are to us, basically. Titanic bipeds, nearly eight feet of long-armed simpleton with a dish-shaped face build for chewing tough meals. The death of an ogre can leave a big hole in the defenses of a goblin territory, as the locals were most likely rendered complacent in their more martial duties.

Anyone want me to detail the dwarves? I'm making this up as I go along.

I don't mean to be a buzz kill, because this does sound like a fun setting, but taking the time to introduce a bunch of supernatural creatures, and then explicitly finding ways to make them not be supernatural, seems to be sort of missing the point.

I mean, if you're interested, there ARE options for magic in a neolithic setting. Old Magic, shamans, mother-goddess cults, the master of the animals, cave painting sympathetic magic, etc etc.

>>17042438
It's the latter, sorry about that. The goblins lack any sort of concrete organization of their speech.

"Troll! There! Troll! Troll! There!"

That's basically it.

>>17042473
Imagine if a cluster of ergaster-goblins survived under Hadrian's Wall until Victorian times.

Wouldn't the locals think them magical in some horrible monster way?

>>17042489

Oh, there's an organization to their words. If they can speak and understand each other, their language is fully formed.

But wouldn't it be neat if their language lacked one of the "universals" of human speech? Like your example right there - not a single verb.

What if Goblin was a language entirely without verbs? Or separate verb words at least, such that when you translate it to English it sounds like "Troll there! Troll! Troll! Troll there!"?

>>17042512
That's a good idea. I was thinking that there could be verbs, but actually having any kind of conversation beyond idle gossip and emphasis through repetition would be a tad difficult for them. A cultural version of writer's block, if you will.

>>17042498

Not really? I think they'd probably just exterminate them.

>>17042535

Actually, you could probably approximate verb usage through some extreme noun/pronoun declensions.

Like, I guess, for instance have "Troll" be "Durg-" with "Durgix" for the accusative (I took -the ball-) then have "Goblin" be "Treg-" with "Trego" for the nominative (-The girl- took the ball) with "Tregoi" as the plural. Then let's pretend "Spear" is "Yurk-" with "Yurker" being the instrumental ("I played baseball -with a bat-") with "Yurkeri" being the plural form.

With that set up, you could have them say something like "Tregoi durgix yurker" which could translate to "Goblins attack the troll with spears." but would more likely be translated at "Goblins troll spears!" Then saying words that mean "today" "tomorrow" "now" "yesterday" could add the mood/aspect necessary to change it into "goblins attacked the troll with spears", "goblins will attack the troll with spears" or "Attack the troll with spears now!" though that last one would likely require a different declension for the word for Goblins.

>>17042609

I just murdered the thread. Sorry.

>>17042730

It's alright.

So, goblins.We've dealt with the goblins as faerie workers/outlaws and goblins as neolithic offshoots of humanity. What about the concept of household goblins, who live amongst humans? It think there's some more potential there we could explore.

In the game I DM, Goblins are six armed psuedo-arachnids with twelve eyes, six of which are only open in the darkness.

They also are the most intelligent race in the world, and tend to run monstrously sized floating libraries and look down upon other sentient races for being "silly-brained".

Try and keep the thread bumped with new ideas guys, no matter how lame they might seem. I'd like to see whether we get anything more out of tomorrow's fresh blood.

>>17042868

...I would ask the question of by what measure do you still consider them to be goblins, at this point.

So we have in the category of goblins the next beings: Goblin, Hobgoblin, bugbear, Leprechaun, Kobold, Brownie, Spriggan, Redcaps, changeling, borrowers, boggarts, Korrigans (it's typed in that form?), gremlins, pooka, puck... Then we have the ones who can or not enter taht category (a flexible category) like the wisps and pixie, all that little fairie, and a lot of others little being of all parts of europe (trasnos, trastorlillos, trasgos, duendes, lupin, imp, trenti...). My english is poor, sorry.

>>17043482
More types of beings, please? If it's posible from parts of the world than it's complicate for a non english speaker to get (for good or bad, its the international language) some info. C'mon /tg/ of the day, don't let me down.

Well, nobody care,so I will start to dump some mithological creatures from spain. My english it's bad, so fuck off all the gramma-nazis.

Trenti

This is a cheerful and bening type of faire, found in follow girls and grab some specific parts of her anatomy, then ran and hide in some bushes. It's a forest lord, know alot about her zone and likes to make little jokes to the lumberjacks and hunters. He (because ever is a he) like to care about babies and little humans in general, making jokes to make them laugh. Alas, normally without the acknowledge of the humans, the creature helps to raise the lamb after a tempest or make the life easy to the grandmothers. A good, though mischievous fellah.

Tentirujo.

A little guy who has a green skin,little horns in the head, a goat like tail, red cloths and a "boina" in the head. It's a naughty one, touching in the noble parts of the females to get them aroused and exited, with a mandrake plant who has the ability to turn the little one invisible and pranks of the like.

Ijanas.

Some type of mischievous and cheerful fairie, with a large breast, bright hair (blonde or red-head) and great beauty. Normally they help in little things like calming the herds or guide the lost, but all of them like the pranks. Very gluttonous and sweet-tooth, all of them like to assault the honey combs or steal the milk, some enter in the houses to steal the food and mess up.Though normally very "good" and "kind" to the males, they are Very vengeful, and if anybody piss them can be very annoying or perilous.

Trastorlillo.

A typical house-hold goblin, short (30 cm) with little horns,normally a white "boina", a shepherd stick, large hands, mischievos,playful and some times "good" and others "bad". They are found in imitate sounds of all the animals and the crying babies to annoy the habitants of thehouse, and trough some times he will help cleaning the house if the habitatns give him milk and others little gifts, the little bastard likes more to mess up the place and make pranks to the adults of the house. But it's very kind to the childsm making them laugh. If the family abandon the house the Trastorlillo will follow them.

Anyone know if it's possible to edit the post? Because i want to add some thing I forget to add. Well, anyways.

Dianyo.

A little goblin of about 30 cm, brunette skin, little horns, very ugly and green eyes, very large hands with a hole in the right, it's a type of asshole goblin. A night and cleptoman fairie who loves to make all type of pranks to the drunken, the travelers and the farmers. Not very bright but with a great pride, so the most common form to get ride of them it's making a challenge like counting sesame seeds or transport water with a basket, so humiliate for doesn't being able to fulfil the request flee.

The pic of a Diaño.

C'mon, im the only one who like goblins?

Simiciu/Sumicu

A dark and evil goblin, very little and sneaky,who like mess up with all the little things like keys and money, but with the powerful and malign ability to make the people (and childs) "sumirse" or make them off of existence.

*Le bump*

These look pretty cool. I think a lot of /tg/ was asleep though.

>>17043744
>>17043791
>>17043870

It sort of figures that Spanish goblins would be so sexual in nature.

Russia has a number of household spirits like hobgoblins/brownies.

The Domovoi (pictured) helps with chores and fieldwork. There's one in every house, and he lives in or behind the stove. If he gets upset of offended, he'll act a bit like a poltergeist.

Much more dangerous is the bannik, who lives in the bath-house. The fifth firing firing (or fourth, depending on tradition) of the bath was reserved for the Bannik, and, given his inclination to invite demons and forest spirits to share his bath, no Christian images were allowed lest they offend the occupants. If disturbed by an intruder while washing, the Bannik might pour boiling water over him, or even strangle him

The Bannik had the ability to predict the future. One consulted him by standing with one's back exposed in the half-open door of the bath. The Bannik would gently stroke one's back if all boded well; but if trouble lay ahead, he would strike with his claws.

>>17038081
>In Ireland, fairies were divided into "solitary" and "trooping" fairies.
This is a later invention of Yeats, to be fair.

>>17046335

Well, I think Yeats was just trying to categorize things. His books on Irish folklore were one of the earliest and most thorough analysis of Irish fairy traditions.

I can try to post some more Spanish goblins/fairies, anyone is interested? Alas I request that book, because the info was awesome (and the pics too) but i was reading it back in the 2003.

>>17046812

I don't think anybody will complain if you post more.

>>17046812
Sounds good.

I wonder if goblins went high tech. If there's a goblin that keeps making my hard drives fail.

There were a number of goblin-like creatures in Northeastern American Indian folklore. Two that stick out in my mind are the Mohegan/Pequot Makiawisug, and the Wampanoag Pukwudgies.

Well, Makiawisug were more like brownies than anything. If you gave them little offerings, they'd treat you well in turn. If you insulted them, they'd root you to the ground and steal all your things before you recovered. They liked hot weather and were associated with whippoorwills. Their leader was the witch Granny Squannit.

Details on Granny Squannit are in conflict; some stories say she was just a tiny old woman, some say she was a one-eyed hag with webbed hands. She was married to a giant in most stories, called Moshup by the Mohegans and Maushop by the Wampanoag.

Puckwudgies are closer to the traditional goblin. They were short, squat, and had big ears and noses. They lived in marshland and could control mashlights, which the Wampanoag though were the souls of dead warriors. They used poisoned arrows, conjured up magic fire, and could shapeshift, usually into porcupines.

Some Wampanoag stories even maintain that Pukwudgies managed to kill the giant Maushop and his sons.

>>17047538
Well, some people can complain than isn't a Spanish Mythology thread, but anyways...

Malismos

Well, that furry,ugly,angry, "short"(1,40-1,60m), awful creature has lots of similarities with the troll, probably exported by the Visigoths. All of them are nocturnal creatures, loving to live in dark sites, like caves, and the sun hurt them, sometimes being mortal. They have powerful magic ability's.

>>17047625

That would be a gremlin.

>>17047745
They where treasure hoarders and guardians, like the Xanas and Mouras.

>>17047625
Gremlins, that little pest are found in crush and mess up technological things. Alas are one of the few faerie creatures who can resist iron.

I'm posting Spanish duendes(goblins) because are the only one I know, but apportations like>>17047736 are teh things I'm searching in that thread, so keep posting please.

Martinico:

This squat,short (60 cm)with a big head, malicious eyes, long tail and clothed like a friar, love the red colour. It's a very unstable one, capable of being very kind and helpful with the men and woman, but moody and irritable for little things and capable of do the most vicious pranks if some one piss them. Likes to haunt houses, and if likes the family, it's capable of follow them when the host abandon the house.

>>17040904
>>17040961

In addition to that I'd add magic that ties into the basic concepts of goblins; they're small and sneaky. So, invisibility, limited shape-shifting, ability to squeeze through openings that seem way too small, etc.

bump

Hmm, the Italians and batlic country have they own goblins or what?

>>17049361

I dunno about Italy. I know they have orcos, and the Greeks had the dactyls, but I'm not sure about straight up on goblins.

So anyone has any alternate form of goblin? C'mon /Tg/ last night was amazing.

>>17039023
Yep, and a few lines in the Hobbit flipped that around forever.

Not that I dislike that kind of Hobgoblin.

>>17050759

Tolkien even felt embarrassed about that latter, having written the lines before he'd actually investigated the meaning of "hobgoblin."

Okay, so, last night we talked about Redcaps being Goblin outlaws and bandits, who have fled the rule of their faerie overlords.

But why couldn't something similar be said of hobgoblins and brownies and boggarts? They serve humans, right? Maybe they wised up and traded in for less dangerous masters. Hobgoblins and their ilk are goblins who have fled Faerie, but lack the drive to become as vicious as the Redcaps.

Of course, the Redcaps know other goblins are fleeing Faerie, and so they watch the gateways and borders, looking to "save" and then pressgang escaping goblins.

>>17051356

Alternatively, before the coming of man the Fair Folk had full run of our world. Human civilization and modernization slowly drove them back into Fairy Land, but isolated islands of magic remained. Enchanted forests, haunted ruins, mystic archipelagos.

And some of the Elder Race remained behind as well. While most goblins retreated into fairyland, where they became slaves and minions of the Faerie nobility, a few remained behind and adapted to the new world of humanity.

>>17051356
I like it. Can you post more fluff about the fairy form of government?

>>17051356
>>17051419
>>17051435

Okay, here's some thought. The Hobgoblins are the MAJORITY of the goblins, not the minority. They realized living amongst humans is better than living in Faerie. These are the "working class" fairies, who make shoes for humans, or cut their wheat in the night with magic scythes that let them work twice as fast. Humans repay them with food and drink.

After the lights have gone out and the humans are in bed, the Hobs take the barrel of ale that was left out for them, role it down to the bench in front of the tavern, and drink and have a smoke, blowing shape-changing smoke rings from their intricate pipes. Part of the deal is that the humans never interfere in Hob business, but some children crowd near the window shutters and press an ear against them to hear goblin talk, and maybe learn secrets.

What they mainly learn is the Hobs casual speech makes that of the ornery old human farmers look downright wholesome.

Redcaps, on the other hand, are extremists, goblins who don't like serving ANYBODY, too surly to be Hobs. Some are ex-spriggans, who used to be the faerie nobles' guards for the gateways of Faerie, or spies in the lands of the giants, or the thieves of human babies.

>>17051435

If you mean the faerie nobles, I think it's silly to assume they have any. I mean, sure there are multiple "kingdoms" in Fairyland, and each Fairy lord has his own castle, but the borders of their kingdoms are fluid and shifting, and they can pluck a titanic castle of glass out of the ground whenever they feel like it.

They fight, they love, they torment, they create. It's all passionate and over the top, hedonistic and unrestrained. It defies order and government and what not. There's definitely a pecking order, with some faerie lords having more allies or minions or raw magical power than others.

>>17051559
But they will have differenced castes of fairies, like the Goblins, The gnomes and the Elfs for example, the workers, the artisans and the nobles respectively for example.

>>17051578

Well, in this case I'd say "elf" would just be the world for the tall, beautiful faerie nobles. But that said, they wouldn't really NEED anything. Faerie magic is so powerful that they can pretty much conjure anything they need from thin air. Crafting buildings, weapons, music, it's all the same to them. It's recreational, a matter of art, pride, and creativity. They just use goblins to do the shit they don't feel like doing, or think is beneath them.

Gnomes and dwarfs, though, I would say have their own otherworld, separate from fairyland or the real world or Giant Country. It might connect to those places, but exists independently.

>ctrl+f "Warcraft"
>no results

I always liked the Warcraft universe's spin on Goblins, but maybe that's just because I'm a hipster who likes things that are different from everything else. Goblins aren't evil in that setting, just 1) profit-seeking and 2) have no regard for the concepts of "danger" or "safety". Thus, their inventions are powerful, but have a tendency to explode. And this isn't just them cutting corners in the name of making more profit, this is an actual design philosophy that amounts to "ah fuck it life's too short anyway".

They've also got their own unique physical appearance, style, and culture, making them distinct from orcs in every way except skin color. I thought that was a nice break from the usual trope of "goblins are miniature orcs".

>>17051597

This reminds me of a suggestion in the Giant thread from earlier this month, of a setting that consists of multiple stacked "planes" that all interact with each other in trade or warfare or whatever, as opposed to a true "globe" planet. Something more like Norse myth's Nine Realms.

You,'d have the mundane realm of humanity, then Giant Country, Fairyland, The Dwarf Kingdoms, and maybe the realm of the Gods.

In my campaign I have Atog Khan, a possibly immortal goblin king in a constant struggle against Lord Winterloc, a dracolich. He's helped out the players a few times, including giving them OP weapons.
He's at war with Winterloc openly in the Underdark, and has agents opposing Winterloc's agents on the surface.

I love this campaign, and here's some drawfagging

>>17051643
aaaand the other picture. If you're here drawfag, thank you

>>17051597
>>17051623

This reminds me of another setting we discussed in that thread, where humanity is explicitly kept weak, never allowed to develop large kingdoms or armies, never allowed to advance too far technologically, because they essentially exist as a resource to the supernatural beings.

The Elfs of Fairyland want to use humanity as a regular supply of Changelings, the dwarfs want to sell them shit, the giants want to eat them, the gods want to be worshiped...

>>17051808

...and the Dead want to increase their numbers.

>They're either diminutive, vile creatures who kill and torture for fun, or they're rejections of this approach
>They're either diminutive, vile creatures, or they're rejections of this
>They're either vile creatures, or they're rejections

So they're either something or they're not?

All trucks are either two door blue pick-ups, or they're not.

>>17051968

See:

>>17041239

There is a difference between something specifically created to be the opposite of an idea and alternate approaches to that idea.

>>17051506
I really like this idea.

>>17051968
There is a difference between a subversion and an aversion.

Pratchett's and Hunt's goblins subvert Tolkienian goblins because they are considered monsters in their own settings, but aren't.

We are looking to avert the Tolkienian ideal altogether in a setting where no-one would automatically assume goblins are always evil.

Admittedly, my own story made that goal kinda blurry, because I wrote about goblins who chose to be criminals.

If we have redcaps as criminals and hobgoblins as law-abiding, but keep them as one species, we avert rather than subvert the trope.

So, should the Hobs be goblins who fled Fairyland, or who never went there in the first place, choosing to remain amongst humans while the other Fair Folk withdrew?

bump

A pic of a Tentirujo.

As for Norse mythology, we don't really have "Goblins" in the conventional sense. Instead, Trolls fills all roles. (The role of brownies and such, however, are filled by creatures called "Tomter".) Goblins, therefore, would be called small-trolls.

>>17053097

Yeah, the way I understand it is that the smaller, more goblinish trolls are the product of this same phenomenon: >>17037897

In fact, I seem to recall some folklorists arguing all trolls were just the diminished memory of the old jotuns, citing the superstition that lightning strikes are believed to kill trolls as a vague memory of thor battling the giants.

>>17053097
>>17054755

Actually, the word "drow" that we all know from D&D's dark elves is one of two names (the other being "trow") for an odd mythical creature from the Orkney islands.

Drow are a weird mixture of Scandinavian trolls with British goblins, a synthesis of the Norsemen's attempts to settle the islands.

Nick Scratch leaned back on the old stool in front of the tavern and smoked his pipe. The other lads had already left for the night, but Nick didn’t have too much work to do, so he had decided to linger and finish off the ale. The air was cool, the sounds of insects and owls and the breeze in the branches was serene. It was a good night to be a Hob. Nick’s sharp eyes could see some lights in the distant shadow of the forest. Elfs on their midnight procession, perhaps, wandering through the trees. Nick raised his ale mug to the air, wishing luck to any of those miserable redcap devils the elfs might be hunting tonight.

The earth shook. It was a mild tremor, but it bounced Nick in his seat and spilled the ale. Just as Nick was reorienting himself, there was another. A third came a few seconds later. Nick could see where this was going and sat back in the chair, got a firm hold of his mug, and braced himself as the great thuds got nearer and nearer.

The giant came into view over the blacksmith’s, loping lazily along, with a dopey but satisfied smile on his face. Slung over his shoulder was a brace of sheep, tied together with leather thongs.

“Ho!” called out Nick. The giant paused, looked around, and finally spotted him. He raised his offhand in greeting and strode over to the goblin, leaning casually on the roof of the blacksmith’s. There was a creaking and groaning of timbers. Nick winced. Looked like he would have some work tonight after all.

>>17055700

“Hello, master Hob,” rumbled the giant conversationally. He briefly noticed that the blacksmith’s chimney seemed to be toppling and reached out to right it, his tongue sticking out in concentration.

“Good evening, Bront. Been some months since I’ve seen you wandering in this part of the shires. I hope you came by those sheep honestly,” said Nick.

Bront the giant boomed with laughter. In the morning, the blacksmith and his family would remember being awoken by the sound of distant thunder in the hills before falling asleep again. “Yes, master Hob,” replied Bront, “You do not need to worry about your contracts with the farmers. Why, I found one whose cart was stuck in a ditch earlier this evening, and these lambs were payment for lifting it out for him.”

Nick nodded. Normally the Hobs worked to guard the fields, but there was little they could do against a marauding giant. Still, old Bront had been living in the moors long after his kin had drawn back to Giant-Country, and was a decent enough sort as giants go.

“Any news from the marches?”

>>17055709

The giant rolled his eyes skyward pensively as he scratched his chin, the movement of his arm causing a few tiles to slide off the blacksmith’s roof. Nick sighed inwardly. “Well,” said Bront, “The barrow-fires were alight a few months back. The old men in the hills must be upset about something. Maybe a grave robber, or maybe one of them is just in a mood.” Nick made a mental note to visit some of the outlying farms and ask their Hobs if all was well. An angry barrow-man was not to be dismissed lightly. “And,” continued Bront, “I suspect we’ll have some storms this coming week. I was down by the sea only a fortnight ago, and could see them rolling in.”

“Thanks for the news,” said Nick. He reached down and picked up the barrel of ale. There wasn’t much left, but perhaps enough for a giant’s mouthful. He lifted it up and heaved. Bront caught it one handed, smiled his thanks, and cracked the barrel over his mouth. The last of the ale showered down and he drank it in a single gulp. With a wave, he stood up and strode off into the dark, his footsteps’ tremors slowly fading away.

Nick watched him go, then got up and stretched, before clambering up to the blacksmith’s roof. The damage was extensive. He shook his head and made a sharp whistle. Five Hobs came up through the crooked chimney, riding the last wisps of smoke from the blacksmith’s cooling hearth.

“Right, lads,” said Nick, “Let’s get to work.”

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html

13th down. That seems oddly appropriate.

Also, bump for goblins.

>>17055051
HEY, THATS FROM A BOOK? GIVE ME THE NAME OF THE BOOK!!! GIVE ME THE BOOK!!! GIVE ME THE DOWNLOAD LINK!!!! SAUCE, SAUCE!!!
SAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCE!!!!!
ARE THERE MORE BOOKS ABOUT THAT!!! TELL ME!!!

>>17057177

Uh, you mean the picture? It's probably from a book, but I couldn't tell you which one. I just found it online.

Good lord, this thread is still going?

>>17057373
Yep.

So, I was thinking a little more about this: >>17051623

It could make an interesting setting. The players would all be humans in a world where humans are little more than resources for supernatural beings. The worlds would be:

Heaven
Giant Country
Fairyland
The Mundane World
The Dwarf Kingdoms
Underworld

Humans beleive that when they die they go to Heaven or the Underworld. Heavan is beleived to be cut off from the other worlds, and the only way to reach it is through death; the gods that dwell there do not leave it, merely receive those they deem worthy. The unworthy go to the Underworld, which is sort of a mix of the Greek/Norse underworlds.

There is a belief in older gods of the mundane world, who walked amongst men, but they have been forgotten and abandoned.

Humans do not use magic, though there are certain "cunning men" who have a talent for dealing with supernatural beings, and some people make deals with supernatural beings for very specific powers. Aside from this there is no organized magic that can be learned, because humans are prevented from reaching such levels.

Whenever a city grows too populous, a lord too powerful, or a an army too large, it is destroyed. The city is covered by a great mist, and is gone when the mists dissipate. The lords vanish in the night. The armies enter a forest and never leave.

And in the dark corners of the land the older, more tangible gods lurk, promising power to humans, saying they can break the tyranny of the other supernatural races, if man will put his faith in them once again...

bump

>>17055700
>>17055709
>>17055723

I enjoyed this, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Postin' some goblins and other fae critters

>>17059329

He looks awfully friendly for a Recap.

>>17059377
I had nightmares about this cat when I was a wee one.

Captcha: Problem, itsCDA...

Shit, the CDA.. Fa/tg/uys.... I don't thank I could handle the CDA again...

>>17059355

...the hell is his deal?

So, Spriggans are goblins working for the elves, Hobgoblings are goblins working for humans, and Redcaps are goblins who are criminals that don't work for anybody?

Shouldn't there be another category? Wild goblins, or something, who aren't criminals but don't work for humans or elves?