pretty tuff yo

Are you asking out of simple curiosity?

Or are you planning on implementing this elsewhere?

Unfair, but that seems to happen to all races that thrive on the thrill of battle. Particularly in Bioware games. The real mistake was giving them technology they were not ready for and then slaughtering so many to make up for it.

>>15653270
In concept? Good. They were a long-live, fast-reproducing prey race that, from culture shock, never got behind the idea of contraception, and were stuck in a warmongering, expansionist mentality.
In execution? Bad. Making 999 of every 1,000 pregnancies end in still-birth is a good way to piss off a race.

>>15653293

Just curiosity. What could I implement from this?

>>15653270
Made sense to me. Krogans were gung ho about fucking everyone up, everywhere. Reducing their reproduction rate to the point that they can't grow prevents a galaxy wide holocaust.
It was presented as some tricky moral dilemma in ME2, but it seemed to be unambiguously good to me.

It was a sledgehammer solution but it worked. If it gets reversed however there's going to be large problems unless Wrex and similar like minded Krogan can convince their entire race not to do anything stupid and make themselves a target for full extermination instead of population control.

The genophage is absolutely necessary. Especially after what you see on their homeworld. I just hope Wrex can get their shit together before they evolve past it a second time.

Ultimately, though? I got the sense that the whole thing is a test run for trying it out on humans. The Salarians will fuck our shit sooner rather than later, and the earliest we'll know about it is the sudden rash of stillbirths. And the galaxy won't give a shit, just as they don't blink an eye for the Krogan. I predict humanity exterminating the Salarians with an army of clones.

>>15653329

How could it be a test run for humans? The genophage happened before the rest of the galaxy knew humans existed.

>>15653325
it was hinted that it stopped working, the effects of the genophage was starting to wear off.

>>15653329
>I got the sense that the whole thing is a test run for trying it out on humans.
>Krogan Rebellions end-800 CE/1246 GS
>Human/Turian First Contact-2157 CE/2548 GS
I really, really doubt that the Salarians found a race of monkeys that could barely navigate their own seas and decided that they needed a doomsday weapon for them.
>>15653319
>It was presented as some tricky moral dilemma in ME2, but it seemed to be unambiguously good to me.
Its the whole "popping out corpses" thing. The Krogan propably would be growing if they spent less time bashing each others' skulls in over literally nothing.

>>15653347
But it was adjusted a bit to make sure it wouldn't drive them extinct or allow for more growth.

It was a Treaty of Versilles. Under a bunch of false notions of "morality" they unfairly oppressed a group, and are fermenting hatred that will only make them even more violent. I mean, while I personally love the Krogans, (War-like and expansionist? Sign me the fuck up) if you wanted to solve the problem, go for 100% genocide. Far less degrading. I mean, what's worse- killing someone, or putting them in a state similar to that of Johnny Got His Gun? Because the latter is a good metaphor for what happened to the Krogans.

>>15653270

The lesser of two evils. If you played MS2 you know that Tuchanka is literally a wasteland of cement. Specially Jarring if you consider you are actually walking in the throne room the whole time.

On the other hand, in some special moments you actually see under the battle hardened veneer of some of them, and see potential. What would have happened if they had been left alone to develop on their own?

Basically, the krogan are what the rest of the citadel species have made of them. What happened to them is unfair, but trying to fix it would probably destroy the rest of civilization.

>>15653362
>they unfairly oppressed a group, and are fermenting hatred that will only make them even more violent
...which will lead to extinction. The genophage will wipe them out if they are too violent since they can't reproduce quickly enough to replace krogan lost in violent acts.
They are careening towards annihilation and refuse to pull out.

>>15653319
Well, the tricky moral dilemma is that in the end the galaxy DID ended up killing lots and lots of krogans (just roll with me here when I say a stillbirth is still a life, if only for now).

So by saving a lot of people, they ended up killing a lot of people.

In the end, it was not much of a "right" choice, as it was "especist" choice, so to say. It was either the death of krogans, or the death of non-krogans.

I felt it was the inteded "moral dilemma" but the shitstorm with people relating that to "racism" would be rather huge.

Necessary.

Sucks to be the Krogan but while a lot of them cry about it nothing is mentioned about the atrocities they committed in their expansionism and rebellions.
In the long run though it seems the Salarians have made it worse, as >>15653299 said the current Krogan race, barring Wrex and the Urdnot in general for their efforts, have grown into a people that are embittered and mercenary, resorting to work in PMCs to escape the Krogan DMZ and the bleak existence it implies, or resorting to horrors of medical experimentation and cloning as to try and fight the genophage head on. WIth the Genophage weakening as it is, the Salarians either have to continuously reintroduce new strains indefinitely, leading to eventual Krogan self-destruction or war if the latter ever found out, do nothing and have war anyway due to the increase in births giving a race plenty of angry, embittered members with which to engage in conflict, or simply wipe out the Krogans altogether, to the undoubtedly justified condemnation of the Galaxy.

Pretty sure Reapers destroyan everythan will throw a wrench into this situation anyway with ME3.

>>15653381

Speaking of fixing it, I'm very curious to see how everything plays out in ME3, weather its a complex moral dilemma as >>15653362 pointed out or if it'll all be fixed hunky-doory by the power of PARAGON.

>>15653408
>In the end, it was not much of a "right" choice
I get what you are saying. I just don't agree.
Krogans want to ruin everyone's shit and get a population growth reduction in order to prevent a galaxy wide holocaust? I'm fine with that. There is no moral dilemma at all here.

>just roll with me here when I say a stillbirth is still a life, if only for now
I don't agree. That's the problem here. I apparently don't see eye to eye with you on abortion.

>>15653427
>Implying the power of the Upper Left Blue can't fix EVERYTHING if you get enough people channeling it.

rolled 1 = 1

A necessary evil, in my opinion. The original two choices, as Mordin stated, were "Wipe the Krogan from the face of the galaxy in what would surely be a bloody, long war for both sides" and "Leave the Krogan be and watch them curbstomp pretty much everyone with their warlike disposition".

The genophage provided a third option: keep the Krogan in check population-wise, without the need for a galactic-wide crackdown on Krogan populations. Was this the right choice? Debatable. Was it the best of a bad situation? Yes--given the two other choices, it was the one that, while having a significant impact, would allow the Krogan to still live--would allow Krogan culture to thrive, if under a heavy-handed restriction.

Femshep pic unrelated

>>15653427

UPPER LEFT BLUE

>>15653440
TOGETHER, WE SHALL CLEANSE THIS WORLD OF INJUSTICE AND UNRIGHTEOUSNESS! TOGETHER WE ARE THE PARAGONS OF THE UNIVERSE!

>>15653427
Hey, how's that RENEGADE no holds bared makes own rules all human council working out? What? They're too busy deciding what the official state bird or color or whatever of the Citadel station should be to talk to you about the reapers and collectors abducting all the humans. Or the riots on the lower levels of the citadel. Or the collapsing economy.

Well isn't that just sad.

>>15653439

While I completely agree with you about the nature of the choice, it has to be remembered that the Krogen wouldn't necessarily be in this situation, if they weren't "Uplifted" to fight the councils war against the Rachnii.

Speaking of which I've forgotten, was it implied the Rachnii were under Reaper control or some-such?

>>15653464
Yes. Something about "treacherous whispers from across the void" or something to that effect. Very strongly hinted to be reaper control.

>>15653431

Even if you don't agree with him, it's still pretty damn horrifying to hijack the female's reproductive system to abort a *potential* life instead of just reducing their fertility. Every stillborn is a mother trying to stay hopeful that this one will survive, and then it doesn't. That's gonna fucking wreck you, emotionally speaking.

>>15653452
>implying the original council was any bit more helpful in either 1 or 2

>>15653431
Er. I'm actually pro-choice (oh god, I hope we don't get to derail the thread).

As I understand, the occurance stillbirth should imply the parents WANTED the kid, and the pregnancy/hatching/whatever was well-cared for.

So the mental/physical/social grievance that happens when it occurs is very alike the feeling of actually losing a dear, living loved one.

So there where I was coming from.

It's just that roughly (in terms of loss of life) it didn't made so much of a difference, and the choice ended up obviously geared toward who had the better plan to screw up the other side.

So.... It was necessary, but only on a "survivalist" level. Acting like they made the correct moral choice is just plain arrogance.

Mordin points out the Krogan would be able to maintain stable population growth if they stopped fleeing their worlds to become mercenaries and stopped the infighting
The Krogan instead keep getting killed and killing each other, thus creating an escenario in which their numbers slowly dwindle towards extinction

There was a choice between the genophage, or letting the Krogan go stomping around, becoming pretty much unstoppable and being agressive - having already shown they were going to take things by force - or fighting them and resulting in more deaths for basically everyone.

It was the smartest choice, nothing else at the time would have worked.

Whether or not they should have re-phaged them is another issue, and I think it was right - only an external superthreat like the Reapers would allow for the potential fo a rise in krogans not fucking the entire galaxy, and depending on how 3 plays out may be the catalyst for the rebirth of the race and peace between them and the other members of the galaxy (external threat unifying all or somethign).

>>15653471

Neato
Again, I really hope that comes into play in ME3, and isn't solved with
:BLUE: LOL ITS COOL, INDOCTRINATION, BUT WE'RE GOOD NOW :PARAGON:

>>15653485

At least having the regular council doesn't have the rest of the council races completely pissed at you.

>>15653482

That's Bioware's mistake. Mordin explicitly refutes that it causes stillbirths, saying that the Genophage merely reduces fertility. Meanwhile, you have Wrex and Okeer explicitly refer to stillbirths and corpses. The writing team needs to speak to one another.

>>15653488
how is it arrogance? If you're faced with a very tough decision with no "right" answer, all you can do is try to make the what you think is the best choice and then live with that. All Mordin is saying is that he believes they made the right decision, not that he relished doing it.

>>15653493

Well, we know we'll be fighting Rachni Husks, alongside the other varieties.

captcha:
>>ortionmt what

How true

>>15653499

I kind of interpreted that as Mordin trying to justify himself, or being deliberately misinformed by the people in charge. I fucking loved Doc Solus, especially how incredibly conflicted he was over the whole issue.

>>15653506
I think they also said that the rachni could help you out if you freed the queen. sure there are husks, and sure some of them might be indoctrinated, but there are husks + indoctrinated humans too, so that doesn't mean the whole race is down the toilet like the Protheans

>>15653482
>>15653488
agreed, but maybe the salarians could not work out the virus to create infertile adults instead or to reduce the number of times a females could get impregnated
all in all, if the salarians wanted to be merciful, they should just have wiped them out slowly instead of this damned state of living dead of their culture

I was much more morally interested in the question of the Geth. Wipe out the geth that want to kill you, or fuck with their wiring so that they don't want to kill you anymore?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUHdSidfWD8&feature=related

The part comes up at 5:10.

>>15653488
>It was necessary, but only on a "survivalist" level. Acting like they made the correct moral choice is just plain arrogance.
I see no difference at all between the two. But them I'm a utilitarian (prioritarian really, but people seem to be more familiar with utilitarianism so I'll use that name). What moral system do you follow in which survivalist choices are immoral?

>>15653493
"Saved Rachni Queen" is one of the possible ME1 savefile flags, and it wasn't used in ME2 so it'll be utilized in ME3. You'll be finding answers on that one.

>>15653499

Maybe Mordin is wrong. Maybe the Genophage was only meant to cause lowered sterility but mutated. Maybe it was purposely tampered with.

It was the necessary option. The Krogan's breed too fast and were over populating their own planets. They broke contracts and took over inhabited planets. The options were either to commit complete genocide on them or let them commit genocide on everybody else. While it wasn't a good choice, it was the right choice. It allowed the krogans to live and better themselves.

There was one scene though, when you are on Tuchanka. You hear two krogan's talking, one of them is sure that one of the kids living with the women is his, and he sounds so proud of how strong the kid is. It was a nice yet slightly sad scene that showed just how it affected the krogans.

http://www.youtube[dot]com/watch?v=xc3z41bJ6r8

>>15653449
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkeGMaq0O98

>>15653520
>it wasn't used in ME2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLHOdqUEW0k

>>15653516
The Krogan are still alive though, and under Wrex may have a chance at long-term survival. The salarians didn't design the genophage to wipe out the Krogan, so they still have viable levels of reproduction available to maintain the species. It's just up to the Krogan to not go throwing lives away like they did before the genophage (when they could afford to), and concentrate on actually building something resembling a civilization.

>>15653516
>this damned state of living dead of their culture
If they would tone down the violence then they would survive.
This isn't a slow death sentence so long as the krogan chill out a bit.

I agree with what some are saying in here -- it's not a good choice, but it is the best choice of the available ones. As terrible as it sounds, giving an early society highly potent weapons and technology is a pretty bad idea since most of the time, early societies are built around conflict.

Also, the genetic structure of the Krogen just lends itself to warfare -- high reproductive rates, combined with incredibly tough biology would make them highly suited for becoming the dominant species in our galaxy at the expense of everyone else. Unless something kept their warlike nature in check, they'd simply overrun everyone given enough time.

And you'd bet your ass I'd rather wipe out an alien race than have them come for us.

>>15653511

Mordin's dialogue in his loyalty mission is probably the best of the game, even with moralfag Shepard.

>>15653540
>dat dead female Krogan on the operating table

they should get the Krogan in reserves and give them special treatment to run casinos
that ought to cheer them up

>>15653517

It really just comes down to directly wiping out a threat vs trusting a species to behave. It isn't brainwashing for the Geth, and you can't apply human morality to them.

I do dislike how Shepard phrases the renegade choice as "fuck those guys, kill 'em" no matter your own reasoning for the decision though.

>>15653505
Arrogance in the sense that "now two wrongs make a right".

There was no "right" answer, and a person has no right to justify himself/herself with such in this case.

It's just rationalization.
Lies you tell so you don't face your guilty consciousness. Once it kicks in, it's like you never felt guilty in the first place.

>>15653518

I'm confused how you can see nothing wrong with driving a race to the brink of extinction simply because you fucked them up. I'm not saying they should have let the Krogans take over the universe, but it's not black and white like you're making it. It's a heavily morally grey area.

And now for an easier moral choice: Keeping or destroying the base.

I chose to destroy the base, only because Cerebrus would have somehow screwed up with their experiments on Reaper tech. Given their track record, that possibility could not be ignored.

>>15653540

I cried like a bitch.

>>15653563
considering the illusive man works for the reapers, destroying the base sounds like a good choice

>>15653270
BADLY DESIGNED.

why make the krogans produce STILLBORN babies when you can have the krogans produce LESS babies? Or get pregnant less? Or, give birth to MUTANT babies who die out the same amount but occasionally get a beneficial mutation?

Basically, it worked in a method that was much harsher than necessary, you could lower reproduction in a much less gruesome way.

ALSO: if we used krogan-zombie virus instead of the genophage, the population would be reduced AND they would THANK us for having such a great fight.

>>15653563
It's not a moral choice at all. It's a choice of logic. What option is smarter? You have to take into account how necessary the base is, how much you can trust TIM, and whether or not how much you can trust TIM is even relevant.

>>15653563

Non-choice at this point; Bioware's established that Cerberus just salvages stuff from the base if you blow it up, so you don't exactly keep Reaper tech out of their hands.

What pisses me off is the reactions of your teammates to your decision. Blow the base up, everyone praises you (including the people who argued to keep the base). Keep the base, everyone scolds you (including the people who argued to keep the base).

>>15653525
For all the shit ME2 gets, that part actually caused me to choke up a bit.

But again it needs to be remembered, the Krogen never really had a choice. There they were fighting away on their planet when suddenly here come the Salarians offering space travel and colonization and all the Krogen have to do is go and fight in a war a galaxy away against an enemy that "MUST" be completly eradicated.

>>15653558
>it's not black and white like you're making it
But it so clearly is. I'm truly lost here. I don't get how you don't see this as a crystal clear choice between accepting extinction of most non-krogan races, or limiting krogan reproductive rates to the point that they won't drive most other races to extinction.
No grey at all as far as I can see.

>>15653518
Survivalist choices are amoral, at best.

>>15653557
What? You *have* to be able to justify one way or the other in order to be able to make a decision at all. And they're certainly not "lies you tell so you don't face your guilty conscience." You were forced to make a very hard decision one way or the other. You can still feel bad that anyone got hurt at all, but ultimately some level of harm was unavoidable, and all you did was try to pick the one that made the most sense.

Nothing against Grunt, but did anyone else wish we got Okeer as a teammate instead? Interesting fellow, and his interaction with Mordin could've been amazing.

Why couldn't I just give the base over to the Alliance?

>>15653582

6/10. Took me a bit.

>>15653573
from IRL point of view it was created by bioware to create this type of discussion
from in universe point of view maybe the salarians did not have unlimited resourcers, particularly time, to work out the solution
making the females be born unfertiles 70% of the time and not able to get pregnant more that once 20% of the time leaves the krogans room to stabilize the population, they had quite some time to adjust and so far show no signs of wantint to except from a few isolated cases (Wrex and the Urdnot clan)

>>15653575
What other non-choices have Bioware established?

>>15653601
But I wasn't trolling. This really is presented as the best utilitarian outcome. It is the most moral outcome possible given the constraints.
Are you the troll here?

>>15653555
That's the conclusion I came to at first also. It would be amoral to brainwash the krogans, so I can apply human morality to other life.

The question is whether or not the geth qualify as life just like the krogan do. I think Legion is wrong. I think that the geth deserve the same respect as a race that I give to all the other races in Mass Effect.

>>15653582
I'd still say it's more black and grey. No good choice, but like I say, you still have to make the best choice.

>>15653555
Why can't you apply human morality to them? You are directly overwriting their thinking logical processes to come to a conclusion that they would not have come to on their own. That's pretty much the definition of brainwashing.

>>15653608

The Book Retribution has Anderson resign from his political position, and a comic or two has Councilor Udina.

>>15653608

It makes sense that Cerberus would try to salvage what they could; TIM is kind of an ass like that. You probably put a dent in their plans, at least.

>>15653584
I don't agree with your definition of 'amoral' if that is what you think.

>>15653615

Because they're synthetic lifeforms with absolutely alien mentalities, and Legion expressly tells you it is racist to force your sense of morality onto them? He also says it isn't considered brainwashing to them.

>>15653621

>>15653625
Is TIM willingly working for the Reapers? Or is he subtly being manipulated?

>>15653582

It's still near-genocide regardless of what reason you put behind it. And that's flat out wrong. It was the correct choice, if there is such a thing, but doing that to any race is wrong. You sound like a Randroid.

>>15653629
I just say killing a dude is worse than brainwashing a dude.

I mean, a dead dude is dead. At least a brainwashed dude gets to keep going.

>>15653629
>absolutely alien mentalities
This is what I want to include in a game someday. Aliens that casually violate human rights without being able to recognize that any wrong has been committed and who don't mind when certain horrific violations happen to them.

>>15653629
>tells you your code of morality cannot be applied to his species
>lets you make the moral choice
something about your story doesn't line up. and being synthetic doesn't mean shit about the way they deserve to be treated. Legion describes the outlook of the true geth towards other species as pretty much live and let live. Sounds more deserving of respect than most of the organic species in the galaxy.

>>15653612
I can respect that, but in my opinion the geth aren't life like a human or even the alien races. They are simply a mechanical imitation of life, programmed to respond certain ways to certain stimuli. Yes, they mimic life to the point where many consider them to be life, but that's not how I see it.

I for one, still prefer accident of universal/planetary conditions aligning to create life as we know it. Of course, by this definition, I wouldn't know what to make of humans created in labs and such from inorganic material, if things ever got to that point...

Legion's also a retard if you choose to keep the Collector Base. Its kind of amusing, but mostly annoying.

>>15653595
Okeer's voice was also MUCH more pleasant, to be honest. He's done voices in a number of games, and I've always admired the sound...

>>15653638
>It's still near-genocide
But in this case regular genocide would be completely morally acceptable. The genophage is even more merciful than that. I fail to see the dilemma here.

>You sound like a Randroid.
Well, I'm not. You think utilitarians and objectivists are the same thing or something?

>>15653642
Would you rather die a free man, or live as a slave?

>>15653658
The weak will always choose life, Anon. For them life is its own reward. No purpose, no driving force, no meaning is necessary. They drink from the dregs of life and call it the nectar of the gods.

>>15653652
we've got both going strong here, and there's only 92 replies so far, so I see no reason to split the thread at this point

>>15653650
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGwuhtGIQOg&feature=related

The geth show that they are capable of mental evolution. Even if that's artificially created, in my books, that constitutes life.

>>15653652

I don't mind the thread being co-opted into this discussion.

>>15653658

I work for minimum wage. These days I live to work rather than the other way around. So I'm already living as a slave.

>>15653499
>Mordin explicitly refutes that it causes stillbirths, saying that the Genophage merely reduces fertility.
As I recall, he explains that it "reduces fertility" by making most embryos (zygotes? hatchlings?) fail to develop a functional nervous system. If they even reach that stage. So, yes, it did reduce their "ability to produce offspring," in the most horrific way possible. From the wiki:
>The genophage's modus operandi is not to reduce the fertility of krogan females, but rather the probability of viable pregnancies: many krogan die in stillbirth, with most foetuses never even reaching this stage of development.

Kind of wish they spelled fetuses correctly.

>>15653656

It would also be interesting to contrast him with Mordin's borderline racist remark about there not being Krogan scientists.

>>15653591
You have to take the factual (and honest) justification:

I did it because If I didn't, I (and my loved ones) would be dead by now. And I'd rather kill a stranger than let them hurt my or my loved ones.

Survivalism. A hint of Selfishness.
And completely amoral.

Of course your brain must justify itself into it having a bigger/better meaning than that, because most of the times society doesn't bode well with amoral choices.

>>15653680
Most of the times, these rationalizations are a good and fine solution to avoid contant psychic suffering, but other times, they may be over-alienating you from the reality.

>>15653676
>fail to develop a functional nervous system.
BOTH of them?

>>15653678
>Kind of wish they spelled fetuses correctly.

Brits. Whaddayagonnado?

>>15653657

>Go to an underdeveloped planet
>Take a race not ready for inter-planetary relations
>A race that loves nothing more than to fight
>Give them technology centuries out of their grasp to fight something you want then to fight
>Realize you fucked them up when they turn on you
>Decide not to wipe them out, but to almost wipe them out and leave them in a position where their natural behavior will slowly eradicate them.
>Somehow manage to have done nothing wrong.

Think about that for a second.

And a utilitarian should understand the moral grey areas of such an action. You are saving a number of races, but you're utterly slaughtering another in one of the most gruesome ever displayed to do it. That is not pure good by any definition.

>>15653680
I'm pretty sure that "destroy/disable lethal threats to your own species" is pretty well accepted as moral.

I'm going to have to roll my eyes at the notion that self defense is "amoral," at any rate.

>>15653680
Ok, in the case of the Krogans there are 3 viable choices, correct?
1) Kill all the krogan
2) Genophage
3) Let the krogan carve their way through the galaxy
For the benefit of all non-krogan life (yes, including mine, but I would argue that this is irrelevant), choice 3 is out the window immediately. You are then left with the choice of extermination vs. genophage. Neither of these affects MY chance of survival, so survivalism has nothing to do with it. I view that genophage as being much more merciful, because it allows their race to continue living and (hopefully) eventually come into their own as a more peaceful race.

On the genophage: It seems to me that it would have been possible to make Krogans come out either infertile or just make it more difficult for them to conceive in the first place. Making all the women go through tremendous numbers of stillbirths seems needlessly cruel. Especially since this is Mordin Motherchafing Solus we're talking about. If he wanted, he could probably make a disease that causes a percentage of Krogans to grow feet instead of eyes and shoot lasers out from the toenails.

On Keeping Reapertech: I opted to destroy it. Not because of cerberus. Not because of the illusive man. Not because there's anything inherently wrong with the tech itself.

I destroyed it because of something Legion said to me. I didn't want humanities path to be determined by found technology.

>>15653669
That's not really what I'm interested in, although it does show evolutionary programming, a very interesting feature. What I'm interested in, I will never be able to know -- do they have "consciousness" like ourselves? Do they have, as a crass way to put it, "souls"? Or, are they just perfect mimics of life?

Also, I'm having trouble putting in words what I exactly mean, so sorry if I'm not exactly clear.

>>15653706

But it already has been, you can't take back the discovery of Prothean technology on Mars. You can't take back the sharing of technology with the CItadel races. You can't take back all the alien tech you pumped into the Normandy 2. You can't take back the adapted Reaper tech you used against the Collectors.

Plus Legion encouraged you to take the base anyway.

>>15653715
I think a better question is: If it mimics life so perfectly that IT believes that it is alive, and worthy of existence, isn't that enough?

>>15653696
Not him, but I agree that uplifting the Krogan in the first place was a very bad idea, and that actually most of the wrongdoing comes from that action. However, in terms of the genophage, we are temporarily disregarding how we got into that situation to view the genophage decision on its own.

>>15653715

Considering a human "soul" is nothing more than electricity travelling back and forth in the brain, I'd say they're pretty much on par with us there. The only difference is our natural origin and their synthetic.

>>15653696
>And a utilitarian should understand the moral grey areas of such an action.
Of the first part where they are given ships so they can spread everywhere out of control? Yes. That was a bad idea. At the absolute best you could present it as perhaps being a gamble worth the risk.
Of the second part where they are going to kill everyone and need to be killed or somehow prevented from spreading? No. That is completely and unambiguously moral. So when ME2 throws this at me like it is a deep dilemma, I'm left wondering what the problem is.

>>15653715
Considering there's still a good lot of debate on whether *humans* have souls, I don't really know how valid of an argument that is

>>15653720

So because we're already partly contaminated, we might as well just dive right in?

>>15653701
It is ammoral, sorry.
If morals decided that killing is wrong, killing so you won't get killed yourself is simply...not-right.

>>15653715
I see what you mean now. The quarians would have no reason to build them as a mimic of life. The geth were intended as a work force, and are artificially intelligent.

To me, that means that they are conscious. To me, a geth is just as conscious as humans are.

>>15653658
It really depends. Do they make me like being a slave?

If so, I can never tell I'm not free in the first place, and I don't get to MAKE that choice.


Another point for the brainwashing side, as I see it.

>>15653736
>contaminated
Gaining a technological advantage is not a 'contamination' in any sense.
When you are genuinely wondering whether or not your species will face extinction soon, you need to be getting a hold of all the tech you possibly can.

>>15653743
every rule has an exception, and killing so you won't get killed yourself is, depending on the circumstances of course, one of the only instances where killing is absolutely justified

>>15653729

I'm done arguing this with you. You refuse to see reason. A choice leading to the least number of casualties is not a purely moral choice, it is the most moral choice. That is an important distinction. You should learn it.

wow, an interesting and long video game thread on /tg/, something that's not possible on /v/ due to immature kiddies. And that's why I love you, fa/tg/uys.

>>15653736
>playing Civ V
>scouting around
>find bows in ancient ruins
>CONTAMINATION
>commit hara-kiri

>>15653743
>It is ammoral, sorry.
But it isn't. That simply isn't what 'amoral' means. This falls under self defense as a moral action.

>>15653701
Heck yeah, I'll agree with that. But let me put down two extremes, just for arguments' sake.

I am directly attacked by another who wishes to end my life. I can either fight back, possibly kill him, and attempt to preserve my life, or I can let him go through with his intentions. Pretty cut and dry case of morality there.

Now, taking the extreme and somewhat silly example from the Eldar (Not trying to drag too much 40k in to this, just figure this makes a good reference.). The Eldar would have a Tyranid Hive fleet steered over a few clicks onto a human sector to simply delay their inevitable deaths as long as they can. In essence, they're defending themselves, even at the cost of another (In this case, a neutral third party). Is that moral? I'd say sure, after all I care more for the survival of my species than another.

Some people, however, don't quite see both of these are moral. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume some people don't see the wiping out of many future generations of an alien race to preserve our own as moral, either.

>>15653746
Say you have the choice. Say this is the Matrix. The machines capture you and tell you that they can either kill you here or put you back in the Matrix. Would you choose the Matrix? What if we upped the stakes and your friends' lives were on the line? How much do you value your life, and how much do you value your freedom?

you fuckers forget that there exist the possibility the citadel kept the krogans alive as a race for potential use as a weapon (again)
solus idea of keeping them alive so they can grow into a mature race is just his opinion, even he must recognize the virus was ordered to be designed non-lethal for a reason
also
WHAT THE FUCK DO ASARI LOOK LIKE WHEN THEY ARE NOT MESSIGN WITH YOUR HEAD WITH PHEROMONES OR WHATEVER THEY USE TO LOOK LIKE AN ATTRACTIVE FEMALE OF ANOTHER SPECIES????

>>15653723
Not uplifting the Krogan means the Racchni would've been the dominant species though.

>>15653743

WTF are you, a pacifist vegan?

>>15653758
>I'm done arguing this with you.
No problem. We don't seem to be able to get our meanings across to each other.

>A choice leading to the least number of casualties is not a purely moral choice, it is the most moral choice. That is an important distinction. You should learn it.
What a false distinction. And spare me your smug 'you should learn how I think' bullshit. Keep it to yourself.

>>15653757
Justified? Sure.
As long as we are understant that "justify" somthing means something like "to give a meaning/significance".

But that isn't the question here.

It'd be moral to incapacite.
It'd be moral to flee.
It's not moral to kill. (if your morals clearly state that killing is bad, and chances are THEY ARE)

Survive isn't, in itself, moral as we (as part of society) understand it.
And that is what I am trying to convey.

>>15653765
I don't think anyone is saying self-defense is moral no matter what. All that's being argued is that one guy who thinks that self-defense of any form is immoral.

>>15653754

Pretty much this. Obviously Shepard will/can defeat the Reapers in 3 even if you blow up the base, but in-character its basically the most irresponsible thing Shepard can do. It is the only available resource to examine for information on the Reapers and possible countermeasures or weakpoints. Searching the base won't just turn up a weapon that one shots Reapers just gathering dust in the closet, but it is really the only gain you've made against the Reapers since ME1.

>>15653770
Always choose life, because one day you can beat the machines.

if you choose death, you'll never rise up and have a grand casting down of the machines. EVER.

>>15653754
Except direct Reaper technology typically either makes you go brain dead, or assumes direct control. They were building a Reaper in that base, which means whatever tech lets Reapers indoctrinate was probably in there too.

>>15653777
Not knowing all the details about the Rachni wars, I cannot say whether there were any other viable options for defending against the Rachni, but if there were, they probably should have thought a little longer about what they were doing with the Krogan, and taking another option.

>>15653770

That one's a tough call. Freedom is worth nothing if you're dead, but to willingly choose to live a lie, not even to live a lie, but to have a lie simulated before you to make it seem like you're living...a lie you'll never know. Blissful ignorance, or immediate death...

There is a fourth choice here. Threaten the krogans with the genophage, which was the original plan. But the turians decided to just use it without warning.

So, here's how it goes.
Rachnii are bad. They fuck up the council's shit.
Council tags the Krogan and hands them modern technology, says that they're plenty tough and they'll solve the problem cause they are immune to the worst kind of shit because their planet is tough as shit.

It works!.. Oh fuck, now they have weapons and technology and they are still psychotic tribals who deal with their problems by killing them.. Didn't think that one through!

They essentially did the whole send a cat to get a mouse, send a dog to get the cat, send a lion to get the dog, send and elephant to get the lion, sort of thing.. They solved the problem by making a worse problem.

So they had the Salarians genophage them.

I think it was a dick move. Instead of apologize or try to keep things in control, they did the most despicable thing they could and punished an entire race for their own mistakes.

>>15653794
>tech lets you indoctrinate
>genophage cure released
>Indoctrinate new krogans
>shepard rules the galaxy

Is this renegade or paragon?

>>15653786

Yeah, but you won't have that technology.

Cerberus will.

Fuckin love Elcor. Most unique race in an alien game I've ever heard of

>"Elcor speech is heard by most species as a flat, ponderous monotone. Among themselves, scent, extremely slight body movements, and subvocalized infrasound convey shades of meaning that make a human smile seem as subtle as a fireworks display. Since their subtlety can lead to misunderstandings with other species, the elcor prefix all their dialog with non-elcor with an emotive statement to clarify their tone."

>>15653784
>It's not moral to kill. (if your morals clearly state that killing is bad, and chances are THEY ARE)
It is not moral to kill under certain circumstances.
Under other circumstances it is a moral imperative to kill. If your species will be driven to extinction unless you kill, it is without the tiniest bit of doubt a moral action to kill.

>>15653765
I'd definitely consider it moral, considering how xenocidal the Imperium is. To put it another way, "is it evil to kill a race who all want you dead?"

I sure don't feel kinship with 40k's humans.

>>15653786

Cerberus isn't below using humans as test subjects. You give them the base and they will have it up and running again instead of assimilating the tech. I wouldn't put it past them to finish the human-reaper thing just to see what the hell it does.

>>15653794

Not necessarily, but even then that means we can research Indoctrination and possibly figure out countermeasures. Deny the Reapers one of their most potent tools; even if it costs a number of lives, its worth it to save the galaxy.

Coincidentally, this is precisely what Cerberus is doing in Retribution.

>>15653770
As much as I like this comparison, there's another variable. In the case of The Matrix, the person in question would be an innocent victim.

The geth made a choice. Isn't it fair to ask them to live the consequences of that choice rather than forcing them to accept your reality?

Cerberus actually starts sharing the info its gained from the base at the end of Retribution, because the Illusive Man knows that the more people working to prepare against the Reaper invasion the better.

>>15653814
The choice is not up to the geth.

The brainwashee usually doesn't GET a choice. And, he enjoys his life more after the brainwashing than before, if done right.

The only one who would disapprove is the brainwashee's former self, who is DEAD DEAD DEAD.

>>15653784
What if you don't have the means to incapacitate or flee? What if someone is attacking you with intent to kill and all you have to defend yourself is no physical combat skill, and a pistol? For the sake of argument, say they're doped up on morphine and won't feel any attempts to take out a limb, so killing them is the only way to escape with your life?
In regards to fleeing, that's akin to letting yourself be pushed around all day by the bully. Should they have just run from the Krogan and abandoned the galaxy to them? If someone is trying to kill me, should I just keep moving towns? A man has a right to stand his ground.

>>15653785
I think you are failign to notice (or you don't know) the difference between "immoral" and "ammoral".

Immoral implies outright disregard for morality.
Ammorality implies a lack (or sometimes, standing beyond the borders) of morality.

As such, Surviving is ammoral.
It ultimately requires a level of selfishness which is clearly outside the aspects contemplated by morality (considering its origins as a "rules for living in a society", which in itself implies a certain level of unselfishness)

>>15653820
What I'm saying is that the geth did have a choice. They had the choice to either fight and risk death, or to assimilate, and they chose to fight. The way I see it, we should respect that choice.

>>15653788
Again, what if you choosing life directly causes others to die? What if you choosing life dooms the revolution so that all hope of freedom for the species is lost? Would you still choose life, even knowing what the consequences of that choice would be?

>/tg/: a complete lack of the recognition of the moral acceptability of self defense
I honestly didn't expect this.

>>15653722
Being a computer science major, we worked with coding quite a bit in college. One of the last things one of our teachers did was, with some sample program he got from some other professors at different colleges, was demonstrate a program that is somewhat capable of carrying on a conversation with you. Imagine cleverbot, but more... clever.

Anyway, the experiment was you talked via instant message to someone on the other end of a computer and tried to decide if it was a human or the program talking. About half the time when the program was used, the students identified it as human. Now, it's certainly not human, of course, but it's still able to trick others into thinking it was.

And that's really what I wonder. Is this Geth AI nothing more than a beefed up cleverbot? Either way, there's no scientific way to prove what I'm looking for, so we'll probably never have an answer. I just don't really see them as anything more than one of our creations, that's all.

>>15653831
>we should respect that choice
We should do whatever is best for humans.
In this case that is getting a large number of geth allies who now see the wisdom in opposing the reapers.

>>15653798
We can pretty easily guess through examination of past and present behavior that the Krogan would not have reacted very nicely to being threatened in such a way. It may inadvertantly be just enough to push the Krogan to band together for a gigantic WAAAAAAAGH and descend upon the galaxy too quickly for the Salarians or Turians to act, ultimately causing even more innocent deaths, even they do eventually manage to release the genophage and stabilize.

>>15653841
You are thinking of the Turning Test.
And some people believe that human brains are very complex Turing machines, so they would recognize the geth as being functionally living beings even if they have microprocessors rather than nerves.

>>15653824

Lets see here.. ah yes, according to all forms of earth morality ever, defending your race's children from HORRIBLE SPACE ALIENS is always a moral act! Sacrificing your species for the sake of bizarre alien warmongers is moral according to no society in the history of mankind.

>>15653844
OK, there's a different argument. It sounds incredibly evil to me, but it's still a new argument.

>>15653836
me neither
if somebodies tries to fuck you up be pre-emptive and stop him
if that anger was caused by something you did to the aggressor in the past learn not to be a dick in the future, but stop the aggression currently about to occur
if no other option other that homicide is available for self-defense or if the death of the aggressor happens due to your defense (and you did not intend to kill the aggressor) i find it very hard to think a society would find your conduct reprobable

>>15653833
How would me choosing life doom the revolution? Do they read my mind? Then the machines never captured me, I took my cyanide pill before they could.

Next question?

>>15653841
It's called the Turing Test. I'm not really a religious person, so I consider people pretty much "beefed up clevebots."

>>15653836

>/tg/: A firm grasp on the many shades of grey morality holds, and that one asshole that thinks it's strictly black and white.

Don't be a smug little cunt just because you're the best at disagreeing.

>>15653861
They made the choice to fight us. They made the choice to put THEIR fate in OUR hands.

If WE choose to brainwash them instead of kill them, it's our right.

Personally, I would replace the processors with good ol' earth-made robots, keep the bodies, and have a hodgepodge geth legion. but that's not an option.

>>15653868

They used their magic plot powers to remove your cyanide pill without you realizing, then plot-injected you with plot chemicals to force you to make one of their choices - no alternatives.

>>15653868
Seriously, the question is would you rather live a life of blissful ignorance or die mentally free.

Stop this bullshit of revolution. It doesn't exist.

>>15653822
>>15653833
What if, what if, what if...

Guys.
Do you actually like when the conversation ends as a thousand hypothetical situations, each side with its own... and to which the others just can't aswer without awfully distorting the initial situation?

I mean, it's easy to construct a hypothetical situantion which illustraters perfectly your point.
So what?

The stalemate created by such condition is enough for you?

I mean, I am fine with it, just want to make it clear so you'll understand my unwillingness to put up with this kind of bullshit.

>>15653878
>All's fair in war.
Fuck that. Even my greatest enemy deserves more respect than that.

>>15653882
Dying free means I'll never get to live free.

Living in ignorance means that I may one day regain freedom for me and the ones I care for.

I choose life, unless I jeapordize freedom EVERYONE, like they would all get CAUGHT if I was alive. Like he said was the scenario.

>>15653884

We had a whole thread about how there's always a third option earlier, friend. Don't test /tg/'s willpower to find another way out.

>>15653874
>Don't be a smug little cunt
Cool down your level of mad, friend.
There is a moral disagreement here. Try not to descend into rage over it.
'Cunt shit badger dicks' is not advancing the dialogue. Think up a meaningful response and present your case.
Have a pic of a not too bad looking woman dressed up as Jack.

>>15653896
>Living in ignorance means that I may one day regain freedom for me and the ones I care for.

No, you are completely dodging the heart of this problem. You can either die mentally free or LIVE A LIFE OF BLISSFUL IGNORANCE. Those are the only options. No mental freedom, there will never be any breaking free.

>>15653895
Hey, they're effectively dead by the time we brainwash them. They are in no position to complain what I do with their parts.

Either that, or the brainwashing is so benign they stay conscious through it and never really die, just change, at which point I'm the most fucking charitable warlord I've ever heard of.

>>15653878
>they put THEIR fate in OUR hands
>it is now our right to do whatever the fuck we want to them
NO. Fuck. That. The best judge of your personal morality is what you do to someone who is helpless against you. No matter how flawed the logic of a group is, there are some things that you just don't do to another thinking being.

>>15653908
You propose an impossible situation then. There's always a chance of your containment cell overloading, powering down, or numerous other things. Hell, the machines could rise and fall of their own volition, freeing us.

To exclude the chance of escape is to ignore the most important part of the problem.

>>15653898

Why bother? Every time someone presents a well-phrased case to you, it seems you dismiss it with "No, no. This is what I believe. How can you believe anything else? I don't and won't understand."

Your picture is appreciated, but your unwillingness to consider you may not have the optimal view of morality is not. Do you believe in moral grey areas outside of this specific case? I'm curious.

>>15653910
>some things you don't do to another thinking being

That's why I turn them off first. Or shoot them. And THEN reprogram them.

>>15653909
>They are in no position to complain what I do with their parts.
That is completely irrelevant. The other argument is fair, that who we are is defined by what we believe. I don't think it's entirely true, but it's fair.

>>15653884
Hey, all I'm trying to do show that your 'absolute' statements like "It is not moral to kill" are not absolute at all. That's the whole point - acknowledging that there are shades of grey in these kinds of issues and that context is 99% of the picture.

Surprised the Collector Base discussion was so quiet, its usually hilarious trollbait on Bioware's shithole forums.

>>15653923
If I change them without completely destroying the personality, I view that as the superior option to just killing them.

Just because they're so stubborn they want to die in war is no reason to throw away their lives. Especially if there's more war to throw away their lives PRODUCTIVELY in.

>>15653916
We are talking about the game here, not The Matrix. You may either die or have your mind reprogrammed to reject your original beliefs and to accept the beliefs of another.

There is no escaping that. What you believe becomes you. Think Inception.

>>15653896
actually, being honest, i would choose living happy if the machines were relatable to, or too intimidating to fight against and only would i sacrifice myself if i was almost sure it would free the rest of my friends
this is my opinion
as for the geth, fucking rewire them, they are not human in my eyes, heck not even the turians, salarians, whatever are humans to my eyes, that does not mean i wish them ill, but i am really not concerned about their wellbeing, just about them not being a threat or a hindrance, and legion just told me to do whatever the fuck i want, more geth fighting against the old machines = better chances of survival
again, my opinion, you guys do what you believe is best
as for the genophage, what a sensible action and what an irresponsible follow up in letting them linger after such a long time when they show no intentions of becoming peace-like

>>15653921
Stop trying to be all clever. "They're not thinking at the exact moment I do it LOL" is NOT an acceptable argument.

>>15653926
Dude, what if...
Stay with me here...

I am not really saying what I actually believe, as much as trying to convey what has society has built for itself, oh, during its 3000 years of existence or so.

Excuse me if I'm trying to explain why the "genophage" is presented as a moral dilemma, even if in /tg/'s post-modern morality it doesn't seem so.

>>15653944
Well, if it's die or be completely reprogrammed, that's effectively the same thing isn't it? It doesn't matter to me if that's the case, as per my original "If they make me LIKE being a slave, I don't even get to MAKE the choice in the first place" statement.

>>15653856
>>15653873
Ah, thanks, I've only briefly heard the name before, but I've always known the test. Anyway, I figure that's as close as I'm going to get to an answer, even though it really answers nothing.

And yeah, I'll agree with the fact that people are just really advanced organic machines. I just choose to ask if we're not also something beyond that, and if so, if other things are as well.

>>15653957
Yeah, I know that in the case of the game you don't get to make the choice, but that is irrelevant. The question is which would be worse to do to a person.

>>15653950
You can totally kill a sentient being.

And then when they are dead, they are no longer sentient. You're free to do whatever to the corpse.

And an OFF robot is a DEAD robot. Or, at least, it should be.

>>15653919
>Do you believe in moral grey areas outside of this specific case? I'm curious.
Yes.
But this particular case, in which many species are facing extinction, is not a grey area.
If a particular species will drive yours to extinction if unchecked, then it is entirely moral to defend yourself. An orbital bombardment to sterilize their planet would have been fine. They went with a biological limit on reproduction instead. There isn't a big dilemma here.
Choose to die. Choose to kill all of them. Choose to decrease their population growth rate so that all species can live.
Let's not pretend that is a deep and difficult moral question.

>>15653967
It's worse to kill them then. It's a straight up waste is what it is.

If you give them a choice between dying and living free and they choose death, simply reprogram them to MORE than you would reprogram anyone who chooses life. You know, change the identity completely. You killed the old one, and complied with their wishes.

>>15653947
You don't care about the wellbeing of anything that's not human? Not to throw around names, I'm just telling you, that is 100% the definition of racism. Or whatever the fuck you call racism between species.

Also, do you care about the wellbeing of this guy? He's not human, after all. And if you do care, why do you care about him and not a much more intelligent Turian or Salarian?

>>15653980
because it's CUTE.

next question?

>>15653968
>You're free to do whatever to the corpse
You seriously think that? You seriously think that's okay?

>>15653980
Because he's adorable!!

And I value Garrus' life because he's sexy.

>>15653980

I care about him.

I care enough to use teriyaki and garlic instead of worchestershire.

Fuck 'em. They're aliens, why the fuck should I care what happened to them?

>>15653980
>do you care about the wellbeing of this guy
Not the anon you are responding to, but I fully recognize the need for most dogs and cats to be put to death. They reproduce too quickly (oddly related to ME, good example) and there are too few people interested in adoption to match their population sizes.
I love my dog, but I have no problem that many, many others are killed and never get a loving home.

>>15653970

I agree that it was the logical choice with the least casualties of the three, despite the horrific effects. But will you at least accept that it is a shade of off-white in this color metaphor due to the mass murder of the Krogans? It was not amoral, but it was not perfectly moral either. A more moral decision would be some way of stopping the Krogans without crippling their species. That's all I'm saying.

>>15654003
That image makes me confused.

>>15653980
pets are pleasant, so it suits me to keep it well fed and healthy, so that it may entertain me and provide me with joy
it is not a human beings and feel not compelled to cherish it the same as a person that i find likeable
if it was a big pitbull that i could not handle i would give it away or put it to sleep, next time i buy a dog would be a more manageable race such as a corgi
in Mass Effect terms, the other races can go about, most of them do not directly threaten humankind, the citadel effectively has created a flawed but somewhat functional interspecies community, but i would still care much more for humans than for elcor or any of the other races

>>15653970
ONE SIDE IS SAYING
>making this choice will fill you with regret because you inadvertantly forced yourself to create a virus that nearly wipes out the Krogans, by giving them technology they probably shouldn't have yet thus allowing them to become a galactic threat.
THE OTHER SIDE IS SAYING
>regardless of what came before, if option A is the Krogan Genocide and option B is to watch my friends and family and most other species get slaughtered, the choice is absurdly simple.

BOTH OF YOU ARE SAYING TRUE THINGS, BUT NEITHER OF YOU IS UNDERSTANDING THE OTHER

GODDAMN YOU PEOPLE SUCK AT COMMUNICATING

>>15653994
What do YOU think should be done with corpses? ENEMY corpses? A loving burial? We ship them back to the opposing side?

As far as I'm away, most corpses are NORMALLY thrown in a ditch somewhere. Being used for parts is the luxury suite compared to being tossed on the side of the road like a broken couch.

>>15654021

You know, there's another aspect of killing vs. brainwashing the geth that I'm surprised hasn't come up yet. Legion does say that if you choose to brainwash the traitor geth, there is a very small but nonzero chance that they will develop the same logical pattern again that led them to their original reaper-worshiping, organic-hating views. Thus killing them has the advantage of being the only way that you're absolutely sure they will never be a problem that arises in the future.

>>15654016
So let me get this straight:

>Point 1: Any life that provides you with joy is valuable.
OK, I can accept that.

>Point 2: Human life that does not provide me with joy has value.
Problem.

/tg/,

I love you.
but please stop confusing "immoral" with "ammoral".
They are NOT symnonyns

http://simple.wiktionary.org/wiki/amoral

Ok?
Thank you.

A question for the Geth Brainwashing/Not Brainwashing group. If I convince someone to change their mind with genuine, heart-felt upper left blue words, have I brainwashed them into my way of thinking?

A step further, if I convince them to agree with me with a lie or bluff, yet the outcome is better than us two killing each other, is that brainwashing?

If I convince someone to stand down because I have superior firepower/dead 'ard wagonz or just that their plan will cause them pain and suffering, is that brainwashing them?

Finally, if I bonk someone on the head real hard, and the resulting blow causes him to forget that he wanted to kill me, did I just brainwash them to my way of thinking?

Of course, I think we're just going to have to judge things on a case by case basis as far as all that's concerned. Brainwashing -- I'll know it when I see it.

>>15654033
Well, of course.

But did you know: there's a nonzero chance that HUMANS will follow the logic pattern to become reaper cultists as well.

Should we be killing off humans on the same principle? Better to convert them to our side and run the risks of traitors than just kill them all.

>>15654005
>will you at least accept that it is a shade of off-white in this color metaphor due to the mass murder of the Krogans?
I'm not going to agree to this. As a utilitarian I'm really not seeing the off-white. I get that many people do see this as bad. I don't.
But, if you define 'white' in this metaphor system as flawlessly perfect outcomes, then all things are 'grey' and this is grey also. That would make my agreement that this is grey inane, but I would agree under that definition.
I would much rather define 'white' as 'the best available outcome' though.
Now we are quibbling over definitions as they related to color metaphors. I'm not sure how fruitful that is.

>>15654036
The second part is EVOLUTION talking.

Take it up with evolution if you dislike it, because it already killed off the people who think otherwise. Or, most of of them.

>>15654022
Sure, but I AM saying that there are still things you don't do to another person, even what used to be another person. If you were in a war, and after the battle you went over and shit on a dead enemy's face, that is not fucking okay.

>>15654046

Next you'll be saying theirs a difference between they're and there. It's all a grand lie made up by English teachers.

>>15654013
I took the pic for a /k/-/an/ thing. I have a dog and some guns.

>>15654057
well, an easy "off white" is that the genophage was done in a MUCH WORSE way than it could have been done.

Hell, they could have released a genophage 2.0 after the war that fixed the miscarriage bugs, but they didn't.

>>15653980
I'm curious, do you feel pangs of guilt when you think of all the bugs you've squished, and all the bacteria that you've unconsciously massacred? Or do you just not care as much about other species as you do about humans?

>>15654050
>If I convince someone to change their mind with genuine, heart-felt upper left blue words, have I brainwashed them into my way of thinking?
No. They had the choice to accept or reject your claims.

>if I convince them to agree with me with a lie or bluff, yet the outcome is better than us two killing each other, is that brainwashing?
No. They had the choice to accept or reject your claims.

>If I convince someone to stand down because I have superior firepower/dead 'ard wagonz or just that their plan will cause them pain and suffering, is that brainwashing them?
No. They had the choice to accept or reject your claims.

>Finally, if I bonk someone on the head real hard, and the resulting blow causes him to forget that he wanted to kill me, did I just brainwash them to my way of thinking?
Yes, perhaps unintentionally, though.

>>15654036
>Point 2: Human life that does not provide me with joy has value.
why problem? yes i think people have an inherent value just because of beings humans, if you do not share this view i respect that
just because a person does not provide me with joy does not make him/her useless

>>15654016
it's okay to have your top priority be your own species, but putting a dog to sleep because you can't handle it I find to be rather heartless. Furthermore, putting your species' interests so far ahead of others to the point where you start to do ill to other species I would also judge unacceptable.

>>15654066
Oh god, If I were like 30y older I bet you'd make one of my arteries explode.

>>15654061
But we're not shitting on the face, we're using them for our purposes. Brainwashing, spare parts, call it what you will.

This is the equivalent of putting the corpses on our fields to feed our next generation.

>>15654060
>>15654078
The problem is that HUMAN life has value, while NON HUMAN life doesn't. What caused that line to be drawn.

>>15654057

But now we see where we're confusing each other. I see white and black as the respective best and worst outcomes, period. Most everything falls into some sort of grey area to me because of that. It's a matter of which side it's closer to. I think we've been arguing context rather than actual morality this entire time...

>>15654088
evolution. duh. The ones that DIDN'T draw the line usually die out. Or, in the case of ants, actually take slaves from other species and work them to death.

next question?

>>15654050
Interesting situations, but I can confidently say at least for the first two that those do not qualify as brainwashing. The first case all you have done is presented an alternate way of thinking, and allowed your adversary to choose freely. Not so sure about the second one, but it seems short of being called brainwashing to me.

>>15654088
>>15654083
read
>>15654075

you cause "ill" to non-humans all the time. It is absofuckinglutely nothing out of the ordinary for one species to exterminate it's competitor.

>>15654102
No no, you're misunderstanding my question or I'm misunderstanding your answer.

I get that human life should have value, fine, but what I'm failing to understand is why you decided that non human life doesn't have value for the same reasons.

>>15653980
The question is not weather I care about the wellbeing of a puppy or another race or whatever. The question is if I value their survival over the survival of my species.

On the topic of puppies, did you know that they breed pups for testing out different chemicals on? I know specifically some shampoo companies rub the stuff in their eyes to see how they'd affect human eyes if by accident some was splashed on them. I'd much rather have those puppies go blind than myself.

... but I really, really don't want to have to think about it -_-

>>15654125
Because, if they had just as much value as human life, that would mean we have no evolutionary advantage.

If an elk had the same value as humans, we'd never have developed. That drive just transfers right over to intelligent creatures, because we haven't custom designed our brains to be reasonable yet.

>>15654127
And now you understand the most basic form of coping with mental stress: Denial.

I believe next time you may grasp the whole "rationalization" thing.

>>15654127
I would much rather they use rats than humans.

UGLY rats.

Why do they use puppies, exactly? It can't be cheaper than rats, can it?

>>15654123
I think intelligence is very much to do with this. Like Mordin says, "We never did experiments on a species that could do calculus." Natural order and natural death/killing is all well and good, but when you reach a certain level of intelligence you become able to lift yourself above that by choice. So at the very least I would view killing of a species of comparable intelligence to ours (even if they're a ways behind on the developmental road) to be wrong (depending on circumstances, yadda yadda yadda). I also frown on things like hunting for sport, as that just seems killing for killing's sake, and is unnecessary.

>>15654146
I get what you're saying, but why exactly does HUMAN life deserve value rather than INTELLIGENT life? Why do you only value your own species? Fuck evolution, morality is more complex than that.

If I had to sacrifice the life of humans for the life of a far more intelligent and benevolent race. Hell, maybe benevolence alone is worth the sacrifice.

>>15654088
i am not >>15654060, but the poster you started arguing about the dogs

>>15654083
never mentioned causing ill to the other non-human sentients, there is a difference between not caring and actively hating
if i had to decide whether to give money to a poor community in Africa or give money to a poor community in Elcorfrica, i chose africa. while there exists deviants that may prefer backstabbing and parasiting over mutual growth and benefit with their fellow man, i find humans more relatable than the alien elcor. I can put myself in the shoes of another person much more easily than trying to emphatize with the aliens, to them i can promise as much as not actively harming them and cooperating only so much as it benefits me and other humans directly or indirectly (help them now collect favor laters)

>>15654169
In real life they mostly use pigs.
Pig skin is in many ways similar to human skin. So they get tested on a lot.

>>15654146
but as evidenced by even having this discussion, you have the ability to decide for yourself what you value.

>>15654177
if it's comparable intelligence, fine, don't kill it. But if it's trying to kill you, kill the fuck out of it.

You can kill the fuck out of humans if they're trying to kill you, and disease has been used BY humans ON humans as a weapon. The only reason we haven't used genophages and shit yet is A. we only recently are starting to get that technology and B. we are the same species, and any disease we give them could spread to us.

>>15654050
>If I bonk someone on the head real hard, and the resulting blow causes him to forget that he wanted to kill me, did I just brainwash them to my way of thinking?

Yeah, but let's say you and that person start fighting and that occurs. It's worse to say "WHELP, LOOKS LIKE I BRAINWASHED THEM AND THEY DON'T WANT TO FIGHT ANYMORE, I'D BETTER FINISH THE JOB..." than it would be to just be happy with the result.

>>15654177
what's your opinion on bug zappers?

One less obstacle on mankind's way to domination.
Now we need to exterminate batarians.

>>15654197
And I'm programmed to value myself, and then my loved ones, and then whatever else.

If this means xenocide because a race is being orkish fuckers and conquering everything, so be it. And you won't get another answer out of me unless I go insane, catch religion, or get some brain upgrades.

>>15654146

What are you talking about? Elk and Humans exist at the same time. We've had the same time to develop since life began, and we're at equal distances down our evolutionary paths. You seem to be implying not only that humans are the be-all, end-all of evolution, but that apparently all other races are inferior simply for not following the exact same path of genetic mutations.

>>15654193
Pigs are a bit smart for my tastes, is there anything DUMBER and still humanish?

or is that a no-go?

I still can't believe we eat pigs, every part of them is gross and tastes underpar except for the bacon.

>>15654218
>And I'm programmed to value myself, and then my loved ones, and then whatever else.
So all humans are loved ones to you?

>>15654193
This reminds me of one of my relative's PhD.
Since she's into the cosmetic surgery business, her PhD involved testing with pigs.

Cosmetic surgery.
In pigs.

It's rather unnvering to think about it.

Oh the bright side, she got good at the whole surgery thing by fixing decepated hands back into (living) people's arms , so that's cool I guess.

>>15654234
Most humans are firmly in the 'whatever else' category to most other humans.

>>15654125
non-human sentience has value, i never denied that, yet i would never placed them on top of humans

>>15654181
do i think these non-human space saints would make the galaxy a better place? are they war-free and live in a perfect utopia?
then maybe i could give them the chance, otherwise i would save humankind over them

>>15654220
no, no, no, you're being retarded.

I'm saying if the HUMANS valued the ELK as much as they valued HUMANS, we would not have developed. We needed meat to develop big brains.

The only way around that is by thorough scavenging or very protein filled plants, both of which would create interesting species with different evolutionary psychology the like of which are not included in mass effect.

>>15654247
So then why is a random turian less valuable than a random human?

>>15654235
>decepated
>decapitated? But that means "head cut off". This sentence makes no sense.

>>15654234
No, but I have to protect all humans to protect my loved ones when krogans come along.

The humans inherently have more value because they're on "team human", and will be helping me against anti-human threats. If a human works actively against me, it loses that privilage.

>>15654199
I'm not arguing against the genophage or self-defense or anything. Just trying to argue for the value of intelligent life.
>>15654205
I don't claim to be a perfectly selfless, one-with-all Buddha. Hot summer day, mosquito bites me, I'll smack the fuck out of that asshole. It's not intelligent enough, nor is the species small enough, that my killing it is really going to have any kind of large effect. I'll admit that in this way I'm quite selfish, but I believe it's a selfishness common to almost all of us. Furthermore, from a more practical standpoint, it's not possible to empathetic towards *everything* or go through life never harming a single living organism. So there's an aspect of pragmatism in there too.

>>15654169
Dogs eyes are a better quality than pigs/rats, and thus more human like. Hell if I know if that's right, I'm not a biologist.

>>15654255
Because inhuman aliens are sympathized with less than a fellow human. It is a whole spectrum of like-don't care-hate rather than a small number of discrete categories.
If we had actual alien races, I'm certain that humans would band together in a sickening HFY manner.

>>15654255
because the random human is more likely to help YOU than a random turian.

And the same holds true if you ask a turian, they'd choose the random turian.

>>15654265
Oops, stumbled on a false cognate here.
(english isn't my first language)

I meant "cut off" (the best expression I can think of right now).

>>15654280
well then why not use like, vultures. They need to see far, and they're ugly as fucking sin.

>>15654287
It is like we are re-deriving all of the current theories on kin-selection and group evolution on /tg/.

>>15654300
I'm sure they didn't choose dog's eyes out of sheer malice, so I guess you're gonna have to settle with that.

>>15654274
>>15654284
>>15654287
I give up. I really didn't realize that intelligent people considered humanity such a relevant category that it supercedes the value of life in general.

>>15654255
i chose to put more value in the human than the turian
i have experiences with other groups of humans succeding and being prosperous, also i have experiences of them being leeches and traitors, but most on the first than the later
what do i know of turians? some alien species with some resentment towards mankind because our first contact was a conflict
do they have emotions or do they just preted? do they care or would the care for the prosperity of me and the rest of humankind?
better to just let them be, use the citadel politics to keep their militia at bay and away from harming us, then become such a prosperous people we cannot be attacked, either because of might, wealth or influence
keep them calmed, with soft but effective demonstrations of appreciation and good will
chances are, the rest of the races are doing the same

>>15654300
Pigs are cheaper. Pigs are so common and so close to people in a few ways that they are the default for cosmetics.
But rats are the default for determining toxicity. The reported lethal concentration is really the concentration that kills of 50% of a rat population. Hopefully there isn't some large divergence in resistance between humans and rats for that particular substance tested.

>>15654318
It's relevant enough that you choose human over alien if you're given a choice of which random sentient gets to live.

Be preferential to your own species. If you are not, the species that is MORE preferential to their species will kill and enslave you. Or just eat you.

Now, if they WEREN'T going all "war with everybody everywhere", then maybe we could talk and settle this like civilized species-nations.

>>15654318
read up on evolutionary biology and psychology, they are fascinating/depressing

>>15654318
>I really didn't realize that intelligent people considered humanity such a relevant category that it supercedes the value of life in general.
Our life is valued more by us than the lives of non-human aliens. Any other value system would result in our extinction in the face of an alien species that values itself more than us. Think of this from a game theory or evolutionary psychology approach.

>>15654287
That's entirely selfish reasoning. If I were forced into a situation of saving a random turian or a random human, I would probably just pick whichever one I thought was easiest, i.e. whichever I had the most chance of succeeding at. If we start knowing more about the people in danger, I can't say race would be involved at all. If I know the Turian is a really upstanding, selfless guy and I don't know anything about the human? I'd go with the Turian. Vice versa as well, I have nothing against helping humans or even looking out for human interests, but when it comes down to the lives involved I would group them as all more or less equal.

>>15654343
>>15654356
How about you give preference to the species that isn't violently aggressive? Hell, that would put humans pretty close to the bottom.

>>15654318
Well, not so much like that. We're talking on a spiecies level here. I'd rather all aliens die than all humans die.

Now, in the cases of an individual, I'm not so sure. I'd rather a human die than 10 or so turians.

Gets even more complex when you start taking into account good and bad in the creature. Right now, we put some criminals to death and finds it just to kill in our own defense, which means that all life isn't equal through the sake of all being life.

>>15654279
There you go. Pragmatism and selfishness. We shouldn't act like it's strange. It's been with us since the beginning.

>>15654294
>>15654235
You're bilingual. That makes you better at language than me. Another word you could have used is 'dismembered', but really 'cut off' is what most people would have said.

>>15654359
the situation is you are given a RANDOM MEMBER of each race. Not you know shit, like one was a murderer and the other was a saint.

Hell, you don't even get to pick the alien race you hate most.

>>15654366
Why? Perhaps a violently aggressive species out competes others. Be ware of advocating an unstable equilibrium.
Either way, value your own highest or lose out to a different species that generally values itself highest.

>>15654366
because if we value another species over ours, we would die out.

>>15654375
I agree, pragmatism and selfishness are definitely normal, but up to a certain extent. It's definitely possible to be too selfish, so there's got to be somewhere the line gets drawn for appropriate levels vs. too selfish

Uplifting the Krogan to begin with was a mistake that led to a population explosion that left unchecked would have been worse than the problem they were uplifted to solve.

The Genophage is tragic, and unfortunate, but ultimately necessary for the survival of the galaxy.

I'm of the opinion that just wiping them out would have been both more dignified and more morally acceptable. As they are now, they live as pets live. While technically alive, they have no actual control over their destinies and are more less at the whim of the rest of the galaxy. They should have just wiped them out completely and let their race die off with some dignity.

>>15654318
meh it's the same with nations, you ask a random english person "if you could save this other random english person or this random french person who would you save?" 9 times out of 10 they will pick the english person, because that is how people are.

only with this it's humans and aliens so same difference.

>>15654391
Of course, it can't be considered "selfish" to value the lives of your own fellow humans.

>>15654391
too selfish is probably when we'd rather kill like 10% of turians for 1% of humans.

I'm going off of percentages, because if I didn't then the race that reproduced the fastest would immediately be in the moral right, what with having the most intelligent lives to look out for and all.

>>15654369
> I'd rather all aliens die than all humans die
I'm not necessarily saying I disagree, but it's definitely a question that merits more than a passing thought. What you're saying is you would rather the other, possibly infinite, number of species in the universe be wiped out than our single species die. I don't really know what to think about that.

>>15654415
>I don't know what to say about that

you say "humanity fuck yeah", or you get shot after we're done killing all the aliens for being a dissident.

>>15654406
I just assumed it was retards who put so much value into these categories. I didn't realize I was alone in this. I don't know if that makes me feel proud or disgusted.

>>15654405
nope, they have the choice to become more civilized, leave aside all that infighting and become a less warlike culture, the genophage is not what keeps them in tuchanka, is their choice not to let go of their ancestral lifestyle, they could easily rise up again to take the place of turians if they have the disposition to cooperate instead of dominate
they have had some centuries dealing with the citadel, one would expect they would have learned the rules of the games are not those of tuchanka

>>15654405
No, as Wrex demonstrates, they definitely have the ability to lift themselves up. The genophage isn't deadly by itself, it's if they keep up their habit of throwing away their lives seeking battle all day erry day.

Also can someone archive this on suptg?

>>15654401
It was a bad choice, but it was the best of choices. The other races in the galaxy needed cannon fodder to survive, Krogan fit the bill pretty well. As it was, other races were spared from Rachni eating everything, although this cost the Krogan their future. The choice was either the Rachni dominate the galaxy with their races being wiped out, or the Rachni and Krogen get wiped out.

Survival made it the only choice, but that didn't make it a good choice.

>>15654415
You don't have to be happy at the thought.
But any other method of thinking isn't competitive when put up against that kind of thinking. That's the problem here.

>>15654426
So, if you were given a choice, would you save a random countryman, or a random ethiopian

Both are about to die, you know nothing about either of them, and if you press the button to save one, the other immediately is incinerated.

Pressing no buttons means both are incinerated.

Who do you choose? No coins or dice are available. This is a game theory/nationality question.

>>15654441
Two-face it? Heads you live, tails you die?

>>15654406
i would it give it more though when it comes to chosing between human lives, but when it comes to aliens is way easier to just say "the fuck is that thing, better have it killed that the guy over there who may have family, a job, and friends"
sure the alien may have all those things, but when i see wriggling mass of flesh and tentacles and you tell me is also a sentient, nope sorry, i still prfer the smelly, bad mouthed, grease-monkey standing next to it

>>15654448
NO COINS ARE AVAILABLE FOR JUST THIS REASON

>>15654391
I think most people treat sapience as the determining factor, when they're thinking rationally. When they're thinking irrationally they treat cuteness as the determining factor.

My dad, for instance, wont eat pork because pigs are smart. That and I'm pretty sure he just doesn't like pork products much.

There's an interesting theory about life on Earth that goes something like this...
Animals don't seem very smart to us. Even the ones that are. Why? Because their intelligence is something that we can't see very clearly. Why can't we see it very clearly? I mean what are the odds that a bunch of species would all evolve intelligence, but none of them would -seem- intelligent? What if humans have been killing off every species that seemed intelligent? Maybe that's why animals don't seem smart - if they do, we kill them.
Think about it. Would the raptors from Jurassic Park have been scary if they weren't intelligent? How many times have you heard a terrified scientist say something along the lines of "oh no, it's beginning to learn!" in a hollywood movie? Humans just plain don't like species that can threaten us on an intellectual level.

>>15654415
We know, unquestionably, for a fact, that there are not infinite aliens, because there is empty space (such as the interior of your mouth) not currently occupied by an alien.

Therefore the question is: do we sacrifice an indefinitely large number of humans or an indefinitely large number of aliens? The former is pretty obvious.

Lets improve the question, do we sacrifice an indefinitely large number of humans and peaceful aliens or an indefinitely large number of fucktarded mouthbreathing hostile orky aliens?

>>15654454
I'm sorry, I seem to have developed a sudden, short-term bout of illiteracy. I do apologize.

>>15654441
Ethiopian, because he is probably already dying.

Let's come up with some more examples.

>random American vs random Canadian
Canadian. I like tend to like Canadians more.

>random human vs random krogan
Human, because krogan have shown to be more violent and less intelligent than people. I respect the values of humans more.

>all humans or all turians
All turians, because they are a more sophisticated race than we are.

>>15654457
Well, actually, many creatures ARE beginning to learn. Dolphins, octopi, apes, and crows fucking especially.

We, as a race, aren't killing them off yet. I think it's not a case of we fear/hate intelligent species, I think it's a case of we were the first one on earth.

>>15654457
>Humans just plain don't like species that can threaten us on an intellectual level.
I couldn't agree more. This is why intelligent computers are mostly portrayed as evil in fiction.
It thinks for itself and isn't human. 'Fucking kill it' is most people's response.

>>15654465
>all humans or all turians?
>All turians.
You have committed theoretical suicide, and people who would follow your beliefs will die from the universe before people who do not.

Therefore, we do not follow your beliefs.

>>15654441
should be rephrased as a countryman or a foreigner, for the sake of ethipian anons
also
countryman

>>15654457
I think mostly that's because we know that our intelligence is the one thing we have going for us. It's like Planet of the Apes or some shit. If we were faced off with a species equally as intelligent but also better off physically, we'd now be at a disadvantage.

>>15654470
see
>>15654466

If people fear intelligence so much, why are we not murdering the fuck out of the various creatures that are starting to show intelligence?

>>15654470
Actually, the reason is -- and you need to brace yourself -- is that fiction involves conflict and sci fi about "we must fight the nonhumans" is vastly easier to write than "nonhumans are taking our jerbs, but I guess that's okay or whatever"

>>15654415
I gave it some thought, jumbled it around in my head, and came up with a slightly different way of thinking about it.

Humans finally make it off this rock and set out to explore the galaxy. Would you rather them find out that they are all alone with no one else around, or would you have them find everywhere else is settled, taken, and they'll be stuck on their single home planet until their inevitable end as the last of them flicker out and die?

Looking at it another way, if I had some choice in the world to either wipe Asians out everywhere or wipe Europeans out everywhere with no other alternatives, I'd probably choose my own race's survival over the other.

>>15654481
Those species largely don't show human intelligence.
A crow that bends a wire into a 'J' shape so it can lift some meat out of a narrow tube is not a direct threat. HAL9000 is.
Apples and oranges.

>>15654481
because they still haven't developed enough intelligence/don't have intimidating physical attributes. Again, a velociraptor developing intelligence is scary. A dolphin developing intelligence is harmless, at least for a longer period of time.

I <3 /tg/

Personally this is the way I see it:

The Rachnii War was from all available evidence the opening gambit of the Reapers vs. the organic life of the Galaxy. That made it everyone's problem. Both FTL capable and not capable species. Therefor involving the Krogans was justified, developed or not they needed to pull their weight in the battle for the survival of organic life. The consequences of their nature are their problem, if they needed to be sacrificed afterwards then so be it, whether the council knew it or not the fate of the galaxy was at stake. In all likelihood they did know, just not who the source of the threat was. Keeping the Krogans alive to be later used as a weapon later if need be was the best possible choice. The Krogans should consider themselves lucky they were considered useful enough to keep around despite the threat.

>>15654458

But we could learn so much from orks!

>>15654498

White Mans Burden: The Post

>>15654481
because all proof points to them not being an actual threat, if octopi where massing and building nukes, warmachines, and the such that could tower our lives, we would stomp them so hard we would be eating ceviche for years
sure, considering a dolphin a non-human intellect can be scary, and unsettling given a certain angle (other ways of being it include awe, maybe even kinship for some of the more animal oriented nature), but it does not trascend the moment into becoming an actual worry you carry around unless it becomes a mania, and thus a disfunction

>>15654489
Actually, a crowded universe is more beneficial to humans I think.

Technology, fucking EVERYWHERE? Fuck yes! Trade, free colonies once the civilizations there die out, a near-infinite expanse of empty space between systems, and a huge portion of stars that don't have 100% of their energy used. There's room to grow for humans, even with all the planets and stars taken. And we'll grow faster than if there are no aliens to steal tech from.

>>15654485
But I've run into some of people in real life and lots on the internet who think that virtually any AI research is a terrible idea and will doom us all. They basically think that the worst sci fi imaginings of intelligent computer systems is virtually guaranteed.
Maybe I've just been reading too much lesswrong though.

>>15654474
I keep thinking this through, and I'm not finding any moral or logical flaw in my logic. It is primitive and disgusting to value myself, or my race, above all else.

>>15654491
dude, crows fucking MEMORIZE YOUR FACE, and tell it to EVERY OTHER CROW THEY KNOW.

and then ALL THE CROWS will fucking attack you. That is scary. They also create new tools and techniques almost constantly, and these techniques spread to every crow in the region.

Nobody will give a shit though, no matter how smart they get.

>>15654466
Those species aren't "beginning to learn". They've been intelligent for a long time now. Evolution doesn't happen so fast that a species can go from dumb to smart in a matter of centuries.

But humans haven't considered these animals intelligent for very long. Even apes weren't thought of as being particularly smart, till like 500 years ago. Why? Because their intelligence isn't self-evident.

The theorey states (and I think I agree) that if they were self-evidently intelligent then homo sapiens would have wiped them out.

This is why all those other species of man-like creatures (homo erectus, for instance) are extinct. They didn't just starve to death in a ditch somewhere. We killed them.

>>15654528
Okay, I understand this and I agree with you. But what was the situation again? Were you just picking one race to die with no other information? Because then, I would honestly have to say human.

>>15654528
>I'm not finding any moral or logical flaw in my logic
So you completely missed the 'we will die if we think the way you do' part of all this?
That is not a moral or logical flaw in your thinking?
I honestly don't see how being quick to embrace extinction (which is the result of your thinking) is a good thing.

>>15654528
>primitive and disgusting to value myself over others

Well, you can die once the situation comes up. I, on the other hand, will choose to not die. We will see which of us lives to claim moral superiority to the next generation.

>>15654537
>We killed them.
Yep.
Except for those hot neanderthals. As a white person, they are my ancestors. Our ancient homo sapien ancestors fucked them so much that they were absorbed into our species.
HFY, I guess.

>>15654537
>other species of humans extinct
Dude, we didn't kill them to death, we FUCKED them to death. We have signs of interbreeding with other near-humans all over our genepool.

Well, it's more accurate to say we killed SOME of them and fucked OTHERS, such that the rate of human babies being born VS human babies dying outweight the rate of semihuman babies born VS dying.

>>15654528
That's an anomaly in my own logic. I value my race over anything else, yet at the same time, I'm willing to die for others if on a personal level, I deem that particular entity (Not race, gender, or whatever classification you can put them in, but the sum of them as a whole.) more "important" than myself. What makes an entity that was is something I can't answer, because I won't know till I see it.

>>15654558
Non-violence through boning.

Fuck yeah!

>>15654546
>The life of my race is less valuable than the life of one that is morally and intellectually superior to our own.
I don't see the problem with this statement.

>>15654481
They aren't starting to show intelligence. They've been showing the same amount of intelligence they've always shown.

Our fear of intelligent non-human species is not a fear born of reasoning. It's a fear born of instinct. If we can reason that something is intelligent, that doesn't make us fear it. But if we can SEE that it's intelligent, THEN we fear it.

>>15653696
Why does everyone fail to acknowledge that the genophage is slowly being bred out, hence the whole purpose of mordin's loyalty mission.
The krogan still manage to thrive, with many krogan mercenaries and a stable population.
Personally I was pro-genophage all the way.
I blew up the geth heretic station, though. I couldn't stand to slave the geth; that's worse than murder.
On another note, Paragon all the time isn't necessarily the best route, particularly when dealing with krogans like
>Headbutting a motherfucking krogan into submission like a boss.

>>15654579
Mah.
Fuckin.
Nigga.

>>15654579
Moradin claimed that he tweaked the genophage a bit. He knows that if it is too weak the krogans will overcome it and experience population growth. If it is too strong they all die no matter what.
So he tweaks it to be in the happy medium.

>>15654576
If you don't see a problem with the statement, then continue not seeing a problem with the statement. Your beliefs that others are more important to yourself will benefit me, and others like me. Up until we run into some aliens, at which point you will be most likely executed for treason.

>>15654561
>>15654558
Two different species cannot mate to produce fertile offspring. That is the definition of species. So no, we didn't fuck em to death.

>>15654578
>same intelligence they've always shown

Well, you keep saying that in 4000 years when the crows are mugging fuckers in back alleys for their space creds, and spending them on cheap corn and booze.

>>15654604
Species do not exist in the way they are intend to.
The concept of a species is not unlike other scientific concepts, like an ideal gas.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Neanderthal man were capable of cross-breeding, as is evident by neanderthal genes in modern humans.

>>15654579
Holy shit, I agree with someone in this thread 100%.

>>15654604
>he still uses common-parlance definitions of species!
>laughing_biologists.jpg

Seriously though, the line between species is muddled as hell. Sometimes, the gender of each of the parents determines whether or not the offspring will be fertile, depending on which genes are carried for males and females of each species.

The shit is fucking complicated, look up lygers and tropical birds for more info. And the birds especially, they can produce viable offspring in a sort of daisy chain, each species with a similar species on the next link of the chain, but not with a species further away.

>>15654604
The definition of 'species' is a lot looser than that in practice.
Wolves, coyotes and dogs are three different species. They can all interbreed with each other in any mixture.
Homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis are different species. Modern European homo sapiens show genetic signs of being part neanderthal. There was apparently some (probably large) degree of cross breeding.
Welcome to the imperfect application of definitions in the real world.

Nothing you just said made any sense, and all of it is bullshit.

If two animals can breed to produce fertile offspring, then they are of the same species. That's how species work.

The only exception I know of is mules. Female mules are RARELY fertile. Male mules never are.

You cannot join two species by breeding them together.

>>15654670
You aren't using the term 'species' correctly.
It is a LOT fuzzier than your absolutely hard definition.
That's how things are in practice. Please don't try to apply a grade school definition of 'species' to the real world. It simply isn't correct.

>>15654670
>He has a biology major, from his highschool.

>>15654670
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger
They CAN breed. and, the offspring can breed. Though, only if the original parents were a certain configuration of male and female that is not mentioned in the wikipedia article. The article makes it seem like you can breed ANY ol' lion and tiger together to make a breeding offspring, but it has to be a certain combination of genders. I can't remember which, because I can't find the more in depth article.

>>15654648
I stand corrected. Canines are jacked up.

>>15654712
not just canines, EVERY DAMN SPECIES.

Every species fucks with any species that looks like it and they don't already have a blood feud with. And, if the genetics are right, so help you they will have fucking offspring. And those offspring will have offspring.

And, yes, this DID cause a number of scientists to die early a few decades back because of the stress of trying to apply old definitions of species to actual observations of mating habits.

>>15654706
The point is, get a large population of tigers and lions. Keep interbreeding them. Eventually you end up with a mixed population. This happened in real life with neanderthals and homo sapiens. The exact details of which crossings produce fertile offspring are trivial when you have two large populations in constant sexual contact with one another.

>>15654706
>>15654725
>In 1943, a fifteen-year-old hybrid between a lion and an 'Island' tiger was successfully mated with a lion at the Munich Hellabrunn Zoo. The female cub, though of delicate health, was raised to adulthood.
There was one success. And it was sickly. Sounds like ground for combining two species to me.

>>15654740
Well, I'm using lygers as an example because tropical birds that I don't recall the name of are hard as fuck to look up.

If you want a more on-target example of interspecies breeding, look at the entire canine genus. In fact, pretty much any genus.

>>15654740
>one success, in under 100 years of recording observations

actually, that's VERY GOOD for an evolutionary timescale. If such a thing DOES produce offspring like that, there is a very good chance it will muddy up the gene pool with non-species genes. Like how humans have neanderthal genes.

>>15654816
what principles? The guy who cited the lygers outright said in a later post he only sited them because he couldn't remember off the top of his head a better example.

Besides, it's against all kinds of debate rules to go after the one piece of evidence that is shoddy when given a collection of evidence to choose from.

>>15654828
Just because one thing that was said is correct (canines) doesn't mean that all things that are said are correct (ligers).

I am just as obligated to point out when you are wrong as I am to admit when I am wrong.

Which I did.

Principles.

>>15654844
But I admitted it wasn't the most appropriate example a WHILE back.

Why is any of this still being discussed? Or did you just miss the admission?

>>15654853
I stopped arguing with you when you admitted it.

>>15654795
was directed at
>>15654759
which I am assuming is not you.

>>15654868
ah okay then my mistake.

So. yeah. fucking to death is just as viable as killing to death.

now that THAT is over, I propose we should fuck the krogans to death instead of gene plagueing them to death. We just have to make humans more appealing to them than krogans. How do we do that? Ask shepard. he has SO MANY mating requests.

>>15654882
The DNA is too different, it wouldn't work.
Maybe get some asari fucking to death or something.

>>15654897
Obviously we should fuck asari until they are humans, and then have the humasari fuck the krogans.

This is the best and most logical idea.