>>15069694
Character advancement is free-form, with XP investment improving skills and attributes. Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game. There are a number of special techniques available to choose from, each classified under a relevant skill. Higher skill ranks are prerequisites for more advanced techniques.

Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Gerudo, Goron, Hylian, Kokiri, and Zora, with more under discussion. Each race gets a couple nifty abilities (eg, Gorons can roll into a ball and roll around, Zora can breathe underwater, and so forth), except for Hylians, who instead get a +1 to the Virtue of their choice (though this can't be applied to put any Virtue over the usual starting limit of 4). No other races get any bonuses to Virtues. Each race also has a Mass score, which affects movement speed, getting knocked/pushed around, use of the hookshot/clawshot, and so forth.

Damage is measured in hearts, and can be dealt in fractions of up to 1/4 heart. Your character has hearts equal to 1 + Courage + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical or Courage values, or by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.

>>15069701
shit to get done:
stat out weapons, spells, and abilities
whatever else you can think of

>>15069701
>Your character has hearts equal to 1 + Courage + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical or Courage values, or by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.

derp scratch that. that was changed last thread.
starting heart meter = 2 + physical
starting magic meter = mental + magic skill
Physical only affects starting hearts. Additional hearts are gained by collecting Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers by completing puzzles and defeating bosses.

No Shiekah race?

I am saddened by this

>>15069818
ALL THE SHIEKAH ARE DEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD

>>15069830

Not if the DM wants it set before they're dead.

I like Shiekah. You're mean.

>>15069818
stat 'em and maybe they'll get added

>>15069847
Fine.

Sheikah
4 Mass
6 Movement

Can use |Brawl| techniques with thrown weapons. (In melee range, of course, hidden weapons and such)
Gain an extra keep with Stealth and Acrobatics rolls.

Take +1 damage from Light based sources (If there is such)

>>15069894
looks good to me. I'll add it to the wiki and if anyone thinks it needs to be changed or removed they can voice there concerns in the thread

Isn't it a little early for this thread?

Once the whole thing is finished, Can we work on stats for Din and Nayru as oracles, and items from the Oracle games, in case people want to play in Holodrum?

Holodrum > Hyrule

>>15069940
probably

>>15069971

More importantly, is there an IRC for discussion of this?

>>15069978
no. that's probably why there's so many threads. IRC was suggested in the first thread, but the guy who started the project declined

>>15069983

Well. That sucks. :(

Reposting weapons with revisions. First, Classes of weapons.

Melee Weapons (Physical):
-Power: Axes, Maces, Gauntlets, Picks
-Courage: Broad Swords, Scimitar, Claws, Unarmed
-Wisdom: Spears, Daggers, Rapier, Deku Staff

Heavy (Physical):
-Power: Ball and Chain, Hammer, Great Sword/Axe

Ranged (Mental):
-Power: Bombs, Bombchu, Cannon
-Courage: Boomerang, Slingshot, Hookshot
-Wisdom: Bows, Seed Shooter, Needles

Magic (Mental):
-Power: Din's Fire, Fire Rod, Creation and Destruction Magic
-Courage: Farore's Wind, Wind Rod, Travel and Enchantment Magic
-Wisdom: Nayru's Love, Ice Rod, Healing and Protection Magic

>>15070038
(Going to start stating in a second. Here's Armor.)

Light Armor (Physical)
-Woven Cloth (0 heart, wind resist)
-Tanned Leather (0 heart, electric resist)
-Padded Leather (1/4 heart, electric resist)
-Deku Vestment (1/4 heart, fire weak, water/ice resist)
-Deku Shield (1/4 heart, 1 extra dice, fire weak, water/ice resist)
-Armos Shield (1/4 heart, 1 extra dice, fire resist)

Medium Armor (Physical, +1 Mass, -1 Acrobatics)
-Coiled Chain Armor (1/4 heart, results from stored ball and chain, penalties stack)
-Darknut Half Plate (1/4 heart, can be converted)
-Chain Mail (1/2 heart)
-Iron Chest Plate (1/2 heart)
-Stalfos Regalia (1/2 heart)
-Iron Shield (1/4 heart, 1 extra dice)
-Gauntlet (1/4 heart, occupies shield slot)

Heavy Armor (Physical, +2 Mass, -2 Acrobatics)
-Goron Steel Raiment (1/2 heart, allows rolling)
-Darknut Full Plate (3/4 heart, can be converted)
-Gerudo Black Armor (3/4 heart)
-Iron Knuckle Full Suit (1 heart, additional +1 mass)
-Great Shield (1/2 heart, 2 extra dice)
-Biggoron Shield (1 heart, 3 extra dice, two actions to use)

>>15070042
(Rods)

Rods (Mental, Consumes X magic)
-Ice Rod
-Fire Rod
-Lightning Rod
-Wind Rod
-Water Rod
-Earth Rod
-Dark Rod
-Light Rod
-Magic Rod (No Element)
-----Deals 1/2 heart damage at range, double if weak to element, half if resistant
-Dominion Rod
-----Control certain structures or construct enemies such as an Armos
-Cane of Byrna
-----Target can keep an extra die on all defensive rolls.
-Cane of Somaria
-----Creates a 1m cube block dealing 1/4 heart damage to any foe within the square and forcing them backwards. Can be used again to detonate the block for 3/4 heart damage to all adjacent enemies.
-Cane of Pacci
-----Invert a target leaving it prone and unable to defend. Deal 1/4 heart damage.
-Sand Wand
-----Make an area of quicksand reducing all movement through it by 3.
-Wand of Gamelon
-----Stun an enemy causing them to lose their next 2 actions.

If you're going to use Physical, Mental, Spiritual, why not just play BESM 3rd Edition.

2nd Edition was shit in digest format, but 3E was a really great system that can already handle all of the Zelda items and abilities easily.

I must say, I like the new formulae for calculating hearts and magic. Makes much more sense.

Though I will say I think improving Physical after character creation should add hearts, seeing as it's not something that's very easy to do in the first place. With a maxed-out Physical score at character creation, it'd take you 20 XP to advance to the next rank, and 24 more to max it out completely. That's quite a lot given the way XP costs are going; if we assume something like 5 XP per session, that means it'd take you 4 sessions to gain a heart by advancing in Physical. That doesn't seem too bad.
Likewise for magic being improved by advancing the |magic| skill and your Mental score.

>>15070133
sounds reasonable. I don't have any objections

>>15070038
Starting stats: (Name---Damage---Special)
Hero's Sword----.5
Razor Sword----.5
Armos Sword----.5
Cane----.25
Tome----.25
Hand Axe----.5
Kokiri Dagger----.25----Extra Roll Die
Rapier----.5
Scimitar----.5
Magic Sword----.75----Magic Consuming
Biggoron Sword----1----No Shield Slot
Deku Staff----.5----No Shield Slot, Flammable
Mining Pick----.5
Gauntlet----.25----Stun
Clawed Glove----.5
Fist----.25----Extra Keep Die

Lance----1.25----Heavy, Charging
Great Sword----1.5----Heavy
Great Axe----1.5----Heavy
Ball and Chain----1----Heavy, Reach, Sweep

Hero's Bow----.5----Range 15
Slingshot----.25----Range 10
Seed Shooter----.25----Range 10
Boomerang----.25----Range 5, Returning, Stun
Cannon----1----Range 20, Heavy
Hookshot----.25----Range 5, Pull Lower Mass
Longshot----.25----Range 10, Pull Lower Mass

Needle----.25----Thrown 5
Deku Nut----0----Thrown 5, Stun
Bomb----.75----Thrown 5, Exploding
Bombchu----.75----Thrown 5, Exploding

>>15070038
that looks good, but really think all weapons should be physical

>Physical Wisdom

>Finesse, stealth, control, and that sort of tricky stuff. Examples: the Sheikah, |Bows|, balance, grappling.

I personally would like to see magic in the form of spells following the elements of the sages, but it seems you have already decided on spells being items.

>>15070225
All the physical wisdom melee weapons are precision weapons, requiring careful planning in use or targeting key points of the opponent.

>>15070238
No, we were planning to have some good old plain wisdom/mental magic, just no one has sat down to make any yet. They would require a little more deviation from the source material

>>15070248

I think you missed.

Just saying.

>>15070248
Don't forget music.
Music is supposed to encompass some of the traditional "magic" effects too.
Things like teleportation and certain puzzle solving things.

>>15070270
You're right.
>>15070248
Meant to link to
>>15070236

>>15070238
i get that and I'm not contesting it. I'm just saying maybe ranged weapons should also be physical rather than mental, since magic is meant to fall under mental

>>15070248

Maybe each race should have an elemental affinity?

There arn't any Koroks, so mabye Deku Scrubs could take Wind

Then you got

Deku Scrubs - Air
Gerudo - Spirit
Hylian - Light
Goron - Fire
Zora - Water
Sheikah - Shadow
Kokiri - Forest
Rito - Earth

(I know Rito and Deku Scrubs should be the other way around, but the Rito sage was in the Earth Temple)

This affinity could give them access to one level higher of magic of that type or something?

Reposting Character sheets.
1/2

>>15070314
And here's a vertical version for you guys who prefer them.

>>15070314
ah, thank you. I kept trying to repost them but getting "duplicate file entry" even though I altered them slightly and resaved them with new names

>>15070324
Yeah, I ended up changing the background color to slightly off-white before it would let me post them.

If we do upload them to the wiki be sure to use the ones from the last thread. I still have my originals saved for further editing too.

>>15070335
i actually would have uploaded them to the wiki by now if I knew how

I remember I tried to come up with a Zelda RPG opn my own once, but this is much better.

Maybe I shouldn't have spent all my time formulating a complex religion around the godessess and the three virtues of the Triforce

>>15070355
We're all guilty of it.
Most of us are just naturally fluff guys. We have so many wonderful ideas and all we want to do is just paint a picture even though the framework has even been laid to paint upon yet.
Bu projects filled with fluff guys are almost always doomed to failure.
It really takes a few dedicated crunch guys to get anything working.
That's me. Pretty much every stat block in this thread and the character sheets I made up yesterday.
Thankfully, since we are using pretty well developed pre-existing fluff it leaves a lot more focus on the actual workings of the game. Makes the whole project run a heck of a lot smoother.

You butts want an IRC to use?

irc://irc.thisisnotatrueending.com/ZeldaRPG

You can use Meebo or any IRC web client to connect as well. Anybody with an installed IRC client should be able to just paste that into their browser and it'll pick up automatically.

>>15070396
I honestly like the fact that we haven't been using IRC, because I'm usually at work while the threads are the most active. this way I can get caught up on what's been done and make my own contributions even after things have slowed down

>>15070406
It also gives a nice record of everything that has been said and done for reference. Since no one has been particularly good at keeping the 1d4chan wiki updated that might be for the best.

>>15070406
>>15070416
Cool and all, but nothings stopping you from posting all the worthwhile information in the threads, and keeping side ideas and chatter from the between posts. I do agree with the whole archival process though, too many good ideas lost.

>>15070466

This.

It's nice to have an IRC to chat ABOUT the project, without taking up too much space in the actual thread.

Ideas should be posted in the thread, and then the thread should be archived.

>>15070301
I don't think elemental affinity really fits for a Zelda game. The "elements" in Zelda games always struck me as more thematic than any significant core feature of magic in Hyrule.

>>15070520
I would have to agree.
So, anyone want to try working out some tentative magic spells?

...Anyone?

No?

Well, I guess it falls to me again then.

>>15070481
I figured the IRC would be for playtesting.

I think at one point that it would be nice to make a program or quick way to draw out dungeon rooms. Making a small rectangular grid and populating it with blocks, monsters, pitfalls, and the like for a dungeon room sounds pretty useful for a normal game.

>>15070542
If dungeons are going to be strongly puzzle based they are going to need careful planning and not be a very quick work-up at all. We should probably write a guide for designing zelda-style dungeons at some point.

>>15070536
Well there is a dicebot in there too, so yeah that would be awesome actually.

>>15070529
Now now, don't be so hasty.
Magic too should be focus, or item based.
For example, the default fire spell could require a ritual candle. Protective magics can be linked to rings, and movement magics have always been linked to music...

>>15070548
I meant as a setting. Entities that are movable could be moved, such as adventurers/monsters and blocks.
Also, Bombable walls. It seems to fall under Wisdom + Mental, but would a skill fall under a perception check?

>>15070529

I always thought of Sages when I thought of magic, to be honest.

Now, I could see Shadow type magic doing some sort of Necromancy. Just looking at the shadow temple.

Spirit could be buff magic, such as reflects and mass changing.

>>15070529
I'll try my hand at a few...
Starting with some of the ones from the games...

All spells are Mental-based and, of course, use the |magic| skill.

Din's Fire - Power
Magic meter cost - 3
Skill rank prerequisite: 3
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. For each success, deal 1 heart of [Fire] damage to all creatures and objects within 5 meters of you.

Fire Rod - Power
Magic meter cost - 1
Skill rank prereq - 1
Treat as an attack with range 10. Damage increment: 1 [Fire]

Ice Rod - Power
Magic meter cost - 1
Skill rank prereq - 1
Treat as an attack with range 10. Damage increment: 1 [Ice]

Magic Cape - Wisdom
Cost: 3 (sustained)
Skill rank prereq: 2
When activated, you become invisible and incorporeal. You are immune to (nonmagical?) attacks and pass through solid objects. You must pay the magic cost every round in order to maintain the effect, and you may choose to end the effect at any time.

Cane of Byrna - Wisdom
Cost: 4 (sustained)
Prereq: 4
When activated, this item produces a force field around you in a 1 meter radius. No damaging effect can penetrate this force field, and any enemy that comes in contact with it takes 1 heart of damage for each round it touches the field. You must pay the magic cost every round in order to maintain the effect, and you may choose to end the effect at any time.

>>15070057
>-Wand of Gamelon
>-----Stun an enemy causing them to lose their next 2 actions.

>mfw

>>15070607
I figured most magic would be cast from items, like the rods and medallions and such in the games, with a decent-sized minority available as innately-learned spells. Just like in the games.
However, whether item-based or innately-learned, they have to be acquired. Either physically obtained (as in the case of items), or taught by a suitable mentor (such as the Great Fairies in OoT).

>>15070698
>>15070057
Wait, what?

No. None of that. The CD-i games do not exist.

>>15070738
I agree with this. We should have several classes of magic based items:
Canes
Wands
Rods
Medallions
Spell Books/Tomes
Potions
Magic Dust
Faerie Blessings

>>15070698
>>15070763
This made me laugh. But seriously, get that shit of there.

>>15070787
>>15070763

People don't have to use it if they don't want to. Personally, I think it's hilarious (In a Lethal Joke Item sort of way.)

I know it was one of those tech demo games, but do you think incorporating the crossbow from Link's Crossbow Training would be a bad idea?

It was actually delightfully fun.

>>15070961
Also shooting goron groins proved to be more amusing than it should have been.

>>15070961
I see no reason NOT to have a crossbow as a weapon. It is a pretty decent fit for the tecnology level of the zelda universe.

>>15070195

Is there a reason that Power-based weapons deal as much damage as Courage based ones?

In a previous thread we mentioned Power characters rolling one less die but keeping one more. Is that a good way to model it, or should we just change weapons like axes and maces to deal slightly more damage?

>>15071104
We could always change those stats up. I just wanted to give a good variety of weapons that all were relatively equal in usefulness. And power characters have access to heavy weapons or at least can use them more effectively.

>>15071123
Considering this is more of a puzzle and utility based RPG, maybe giving the heavy or power weapons more options to breaking or forcing things?

The heavy spiked flail for example, can potentially break weaker cracked walls saving yourself a bomb. Or smashing pillars similar to how the Darknuts would in the OoT miniboss rooms.

I am hoping for social stats, I love social character

Like playing a Deku Scrub trader or something

>>15071164
Social stuff falls under the Spiritual Attribute, so you definately can make a Business Scrub.

I don't know if we have a [Diplomacy] skill yet, or if we even want one. There's not much precedent for it in the games, at least.

>>15071207
We should probably go:
[Negotiation]
[Appraisal and Barter]
[Bluff and Feint]
[Stealth]
[Legends and Religion]
All as Spiritual based skills.

>>15071207

No offense, but Zelda isn't very talk heavy on the Main character side.

But for an RPG, you should have something like that. Possibly the one place to deviate from the game.

>>15071262
I agree with this. I'm sure that if Link ever spoke, he might try some diplomacy every now and then.

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, Princess!

>>15071551
Squa La La! We are off!

>>15071426
>>15071262
>>15071238

Should we consolidate all diplomacy into one skill? Along the lines of

Diplomacy (Spiritual):
-Power: Intimidation, force of personality, gravitas
-Courage: Inspiring words, empathy, likability
-Wisdom: Rational debate, deductive reasoning, poise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHCbp5LTgbU

just thought i'd bump.

>>15071855
That's cool, in a corny, classic Doctor Who sort of way.

>>15071238
All social stuff can be consolidated into one skill, with different uses governed by different virtues, as noted in the stats section on the wiki and here >>15071594.

A lore skill could have its uses, I suppose.

Stealth is already a skill, and it most definitely falls under Physical. Why on earth would you put that under Spiritual in the first place?

>>15071104
>In a previous thread we mentioned Power characters rolling one less die but keeping one more.

I think the idea was actually Power characters roll one more on attack, and one less on defense, with the inverse for Wisdom. This was later decided to be not a great idea as a fixed rule, but could work well as optional modes of attack. I believe the way it's currently working is:

>Standard attack
Basic combat rules for calculating dice; use the normal virtue for your weapon.

>Aggressive attack
+1 die rolled for the attack, -1 die rolled for defenses until your next turn. Use Power instead of the usual virtue for your weapon.

>Defensive attack
-1 die rolled for the attack, +1 die rolled for defenses. Use Wisdom instead of the usual virtue.

These options would only apply for melee attacks, and we might want to make the virtue switch applicable only for Courage-based weapons or something like that, so you don't have weird things like using the Megaton Hammer with Wisdom as the key virtue.

Also, I was thinking we might want to make these be purchasable (though inexpensive) abilities rather than standard features of combat. Good idea, or no?

>>15071238
>>15072009
Ah, also, if we do use a lore skill, it should definitely go under Mental. I mean, seriously, what? I can see people being confused over whether magic goes in Mental or Spiritual makes sense, but lore and stealth? That shit should be obvious.

>>15070038
>Ranged (Mental):

The more I think about it, the more this doesn't make sense. Yes, using a ranged weapon has a bigger mental component than using a melee weapon, but if you lack the hand-eye coordination to aim properly then it doesn't matter how well you "know", intellectually, how to use the weapon. And coordination definitely goes under Physical, not Mental.

Physical Wisdom I think adequately captures the more mentally-focused nature of ranged weapons, so that should be the default, except for heavier thrown weapons (such as bombs) which should be Power. But either way, definitely Physical, not Mental.

I think as a rule:

Physical is body: any kind of movement or weapon attack
Mental is mind: Knowledge and "learned" magic like spells
Spiritual is heart: Interacting with others, willpower, music and possibly "fairy"-sort of magic.

>>15072319
Agreed.

And come to think of it...
>Body
>Mind
>Heart

I think this might help clear up a lot of the confusion as to what belongs where. Granted, we'd lose the nifty <attribute adjective> <virtue noun> scheme we have going on, but at least it'd be a bit more intuitive.

Hey don't mean to detail the current conversation but I just wanted to see if anyone has difficulty reading the text on the character sheets as I do.

Like its readable, but the text is alittle too tiny and thin to read with straining ones eyes. Maybe we can try a more bolder approach to the font like this one.

http://www.dafont.com/commodore-64-pixelized.font

or

http://www.dafont.com/commodore-64-pixelized.font?text=07X5

>>15072572
Yeah, the text on the charsheets is a little small.

I believe the anon who made them mentioned he was considering making the hearts smaller as well, which I think would be a good idea.

And it just struck me...there's no bottle slots. Wouldn't it be neat if there were spaces specifically for what's in your bottles?

Anyway, I'm sure the charsheet anon will be back here sometime and will be able to fix it then.

>>15072841

>mfw Bottles

In the games you we're only allowed to carry 4 bottles at a time. Should we have it that based on your [Tool] rank's number thats how many bottles you can carry at a time?

>>15072841
>>15072572
I'm trying to make a more legible version of the current character sheet myself using Office. Here's the progress on it so far.
What needs changing? Are there too many Hearts and Magic Points?

>>15073296

Looking good so far. In OoT you had like 20 Hearts and your Magic Points was always alittle if not more longer then the hearts hud. The smaller hearts are a nice touch too. Good Work.

>>15073327
True, but maybe Heart containers will be rarer in this version than in the games. Begining characters can start from 3-6 hearts, so it may need scaling down.

On a side note, I proposed a different character sheet in the previous thread. I'm sticking with the one people are currently happy with, but if this design seems useful I'll try and convert it too. Suggestions?

>>15073365

This one could work. I'd suggest the character's image actually be the center focus of the sheet and all the other stats circle around him/her as if to say "This goes here". But then again the only problem with this is trying to condense everything into one page which can make a big ol' heap of clusterfuck, Try spreading the pages out into two if that happens.

>>15073296
>>15073365

Number of hearts and MP seems fine as-is.
Personally, I rather like the layout that's currently out, though of course there's nothing stopping you from making your own if you want.

>>15072904
I think it's more a matter of there only being 4 bottles *available* in the games, so I wouldn't put limits on how many characters should be able to carry; rather, it should be made clear to GMs that bottles should be fairly rare and valuable items, and limit bottle count that way.

I would put just four bottle slots on the charsheet though, for consistency with the games if nothing else.

>>15073499

Its just funny how bottles are considered just as (if not more) rare as gold in Hyrule. Because anyone with a decent [Craft] check can easily make a bottle, its just glass. Thus why I figured the [Tool] check could be used for the limit of carrying them. So we'd have to choose allow people to craft em and keep a limit, or make them a rare/expensive item.

>>15073627
Maybe glasblowing is a lost art, known only by few who charge hundreds of Rupees for a humble bottle.

I think it's fair to give each player around 2 bottles, so they can hold their own personal items as wel as quest-specific materials if needed (like hot spring water or Deku princesses

>>15073751

"Ah shit, I left my Deku Princess on the table again."

A lost art? Jesus I'd hate to be the blacksmith who decides to try making glass armor for his customers. Windows must cost a fortune in Hyrule, you know your upper class when you can see outside of your house.

>>15073817
>you know your upper class when you can see outside of your house.

Actually, this was historically the case for much of premodern history. People didn't use glass windowpanes; they used greased paper. Or just an open hole with shutters you'd close to keep the wind and rain out (because in some regions and time periods, even paper was a luxury item).
Likewise, people didn't use glass containers to store things in; they used pottery or cheap metals like tin.

For a medieval setting, it actually makes sense for glass bottles to be rare and valuable.

Now, as for the aforementioned clay and tin containers...*it's a secret to everyone.*

>Hands over several hundred rupees.

>>15073854

Noted and Informative. So then mayhapse it could be a rare items, but now I see people using craft checks to make consumable cups and bottles out of tin and clay. Which then can also help with making Glass Bottles a rare find because they'd not have consumable uses.

>>15073917
Consumable low-quality bottles acutally isn't a bad idea. Especially given that such lower-quality containers would be tougher to wash out thoroughly than a smooth glass container (especially in the absence of modern detergents), and most things you'd want to store in bottles can easily be handwaved as being rendered ineffective or even toxic if slightly contaminated.

Though really, I'll bet that most Zelda fans, if playing a Zelda RPG, probably wouldn't even think to question it in the first place, lol.

>>15074031

Yeah last thing Zelda fans would be worried about is "Did that Like-Like completely devour my shield yet?", rather then "Ah crap I'm getting some kinda disease after being in that things gut."

>>15074147

Also I just thought of something, would Like-Like's not attack Deku's like in Majora's Mask unless provoked? That could be another good reason to be a Deku, most flesh eating monsters would tend to ignore you.

>>15074031
Part of what makes the bottles valuable is their durability. Especially in combat, you don't want to be leaping around with a clay vial that could easily be shattered.

Metal flasks might work too, but they could be just the same as bottles in terms of usefulness and scarcity.

>>15074208
My guess is that Like-Likes attack the most heavily-armored creature avaliable, like rust monsters. After they relieve them of their shield, they spit out the target and flee to digest.

If the creature they attack is strapped into their armor, well... tough luck.

Are people alright with some combat Techniques taking more than a round? Thinkgs like the hurricane spin might take 2 actions to charge, and then 2 more actions the next round to spin around the room like crazy. (Possibly losing 1 action or their entire next turn afterwards.)

Not all techniques, of course. Things like the sword beam are still just one action.

>>15074710
As long as it's used sparingly, I don't see why not.

>>15071238
Why? Why do we need a skill for everything? I know some people love simulationist stuff, but I thought we were going for a more gamist aspect of things (which is why we have Pow/Cou/Wis and Phys/Ment/Spir and sparse skills).

I know skills mean more dice to roll, but come on, what's wrong with simply rolling Wis/Ment to appraise something? Just set the bar decently based on the challenge; bartering for 5 Rupees of a 25 Rupee set of arrows to refill your quiver is simple stuff.

>>15073296
This is awesome. It's what I was picturing, except vertical. But y'know what, I'm totally okay with landscape. I'd also suggest doing a setup in items where you can list your #k# numbers, like on the one in >>15073365. It just looks cool; anything that makes you able to just look and roll is good, even with our simple system.

>>15075095

Are you trying to say that using a sword requires more skill than picking out the best produce and getting an amazing deal on it?

Or a bow requires more skill than forming a truce between two warring countries?

There should be -some- social skills.

Otherwise you're just fucking over people like me who love to play social characters.

>>15075095
Re: The charsheet -- Since T.C.N. is basically just doing a cleaned-up version of the one that was made in the last thread and is currently up on the wiki, there should be spots for roll/keep values on the finished version.

>>15075095
>>15075266
I don't think a single social skill would be a problem to include, but splitting it up by context would be too much. We use the same stat for all aspects of physical capability, and the same skill for weapons ranging from swords to maces to axes, so it would be strange if we used different skills for diplomacy and intimidation and bartering rather than rolling them all under a single |Social| heading and differentiating context based on the Virtue applied to the roll.

>>15075095
There should actually be different skills for actions that are different, so that practic with a hookshot does not magically make you better at using a boomerang.
>bartering, haggling, diplomacy skills
Awww heeelll nawww who is putting all that shit in there? Seriously, if you want better prices, side quest.

>>15075266
You can still play a social character without having a whole arsenal of skills to govern talking to people.

Lore is a possible skill. but [Negotiation],[Appraisal and Barter], and [Bluff and Feint] can all fall under the three-part [Diplomacy] skill here: >>15071594 . Verbal disputes can be measured by opposing Diplomacy rolls between the orators...or maybe we would need some kind of Willpower defense (Courage and/or Spiritual based).

>>15075266
A skill for social stuff (hell, perhaps |Social| or something) is fine. But a skill for everything and anything social like OWoD and it's secondary ability lists with niggly little stuff like Panhandling or Cooking is a bit much to me.

So perhaps we can reach a compromise about a few good skills that a lot of uses could fall under to add for Social-aspect stuff?

> captcha: rolict realisma

No, captcha. I don't want hyper-realism in my magic ocarina game.

I'd like to make a suggestion re: bottles.
In LTTP the bottles were explicitly magical. What if regular bottles are common enough, but there are magic bottles which are enchanted so that things such as food, soup, and potion don't spoil in them and critters like fish and fairies and stuff can live comfortably inside?

Progress on the sheet. I'm using the Triforce font, does it seem legible enough at that size?

>Santa ganters

>>15075400
If we have multiple social skills, maybe we have one for rhetoric and one for duplicity? Sort of like the diplomacy/bluff split in D&D.

>>15075961
Looks good to me. I can read it just fine.

One thing I'd note is that we need some way to determine which hearts are currently usable; can we maybe put a circle or box beneath each heart that can be filled in, since the original damage draft was to check them off right-to-left to represent damage (easier than filling in and erasing ala the e-game). That way if we have 5 Hearts, we can fill in the squares under the first 5 and ahve that be our reminder of which ones to use. Especially if we have any spells or items that give Hearts temporarily.

>>15075956
I like this idea.
I also liked the idea that, early on, there would only be one or two bottles for the party to share, so... Say the tank fell in a boss fight, so the Mage runs over to oncork a fairy over him while the agile Sheikah distracts it with a flurry of deku nuts. Later on, everyone will have a bottle (maybe even two!) so they can handle themselves during the high-powered fights.

Idea for bottled fairies: They may be used to revive someone to full HP if they were reduced to 0 hearts within one round, or to 1 heart if they fell within 10 rounds (Keeps death a possibility, but not exactly common, and makes every fairy precious in the first few dungeons).

>>15075997
I'd say fill the usable ones in with red, but that's not practical I don't imagine.

>>15076031
That's why I suggest a circle or box underneath; that way we don't have to do anythign to the hearts themselves. Also, for Magic Meter we should probably do the same, so that we know how much Meter a character has, and do checks right-to-left, and when all checks are filled in, meter is empty.

>>15075961
Loving the progress so far! And that font is excellent -- legible, and fits well with the theme.
Will you be using the little icons for the attributes that were on the other sheet? Because I really like those...

>>15076045
>>15076031
>>15075997
I'd say a small checkbox by the bottom of each heart would be good.

>>15076045
As for magic meter, I'd say just draw a long line through boxes you don't have access to.

>>15075956
That's a good idea. Have regular bottles hold potions and stuff, but they spoil within X number of days.

And don't even think about putting a fairy in a non-magical bottle...

Better yet, you CAN put a fairy in a non-magic bottle, but when you release it, instead of healing you, it curses you! Mwahaha!

>>15076143
Or it's just dead...
Poor fairy...

so why aren't we working on developing spells?

I mean, yes, everything magic (with the exception of spin attacking) that link uses is item based, but it's not as if magic without items hasn't been depicted

so let's get started with something simple: offensive magic

now a pretty common offensive spell that everyone from Gannondorf to Wizrobes have been shown to perform without too much effort is casting a ball of damaging light

should these spells' power scale up?

Gannondorf's has been shown to cause knockback in addition to damage, and it'd make sense that the avatar of all things Power can cast more powerful versions of spells

>>15075997
>>15076089
One idea I considered was drawing a line in front of the hearts and magic points you could use. For Hearts it might work better as a box you draw around your hearts; I'll have to spread them out a bit further to make them fit.

>>15076072
I was thinking about using the symbols from the Oracle of Ages game/ the Pearls in WW, but they don't match up very well. I'll leave them symbolless for now.

Just a heads up, though- as we make progress and add and subtract features, the sheet will have to change around as well to match the game.

>>15076408
I've actually just been working on spells, though I'm starting with the stuff that's directly based on items on and spells you get in-game. One thing at a time, y'know? We'll get around to it sooner or later.

I've run into one small difficulty: I feel that certain offensive spells should have some kind of "saving throw" mechanism to give enemies a defense, but for the most part it isn't clear how to do this. The most straightforward way to do it would be a check with the appropriate attribute/virtue combination, but if you're doing an attribute check opposed by a skill check, the skill's going to win every time. I thought of maybe doing the "save" as an unopposed attribute check with success based on the caster's ranks in |magic|, but that seems like it would favor the caster as well...

>>15076540
Show us what you have so far, throw it on Pastebin or something.

>>15076528
Each of the OoT Spiritual Stones corresponded with a virtue ala the Pendants from LTTP. Kokiri's Emerald was Wisdom; Zora's Sapphire was Courage; Goron's Ruby was Power. Visually they're neat, you could use those for the Attribute ticks perhaps?

>>15076567
>>Kokiri's Emerald was Wisdom; Zora's Sapphire was Courage; Goron's Ruby was Power.
Isn't it the other way around? Farore and Link both have green color schemes, and while Nayru's is blue, Zelda's usually incorporates some blue or purple even if it's otherwise pink.

>>15076567
Wait, I'm a retard. You meant for Attributes. Hmm. Perhaps a Power Glove from LttP for Physical, a Dominion Rod from TP for Spiritual, and perhaps the Book of Mudora from LttP for Mental?

And yeah, I think I switched the Emerald and Sapphire, sorry!

>>15076633
The other charsheet had an ocarina for Spiritual, but the power glove and book of Mudora sound good for the other two!

>>15076710
I can try, but Office doesn't like sprites (they appear blurry) and the sprites don't fit as well with the cleaner sheet as they do with the more pixelated one.

>>15076946
http://www.zeldawiki.org/images/6/62/Book_of_Mudora.png

and

http://delfinoplaza.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/gold-gauntlet.jpg?w=101&h=108

Those are a PNG and JPG, respectively of Book of Mudora art and Golden Gauntlet art.

>>15076946
The Zelda Wiki pages for the items have a number of non-sprite images that could might be easier to adapt than the sprites.

>>15077002
The only reason I feel like we should have more spiritual skills than [Social] is because otherwise it feels like that attribute isn't getting nearly enough love compared to the other two.
I would think we should have for spiritual skills:
[Social] - Interacting with other people in any way necessary.
[Subterfuge] - Lying in conversation or making a fake-out in battle, possibly also stealth
[Music] - Both instruments and singing for song-abilities.
[Handle Animal] - Riding horses or interacting with animals.

>>15077129
I'd say the social aspects of |subterfuge| should be rolled into |social|. Unless you combine it with stealth, it seems like a pretty arbitrary split, and I'd rather keep |stealth| separate so we can keep the skills limited to a specific attribute for each skill (though virtues will necessarily vary).

We already have |instruments|, and I think that's a better fit than |music|. I don't recall any sort of magical-type effects ever being produced by vocal music; it's always with an instrument of some sort.

|Handle animal| sounds ok, though I'm not sure how well horseback riding fits; actual riding strikes me more as a Physical thing.

I'm soooo pumped for yous guys to finish this.

>>15077302
It's actually almost play-testable so long as you ignore magic and tools which aren't done.

Combat Skills
[Melee] (Physical Power/Wisdom/Courage)
>Includes [Brawl] and [Staves] from the wiki
[Heavy] (Physical Power)
[Ranged] (Physical Power/Wisdom/Courage)
>Includes Bombs

Item Skills
[Armor] (Physical {Possibly Power})
>why is this a skill? What do you roll it for? Other than requirements to wear armor. It doesn't seem to use any specific virtue either.
[Shield] (Physical {Possibly Courage})
[Tool] (Physical Power/Wisdom/courage)
>All nonmagic tools; grappling hooks, boomerangs
[Magic] (Mental Power/Wisdom/Courage)
>All magic spells and tools (but do things like Magic Leaf and the Gust Jar work better with Physical?)
[Music] (Spiritual Power{?}/Wisdom/Courage)


Non-Item skills
[Dodging/Acrobatics] (Physical Wisdom{for defense/Courage for acrobatic feats?)
[Stealth] (Physical Wisdom)
>Possibly merge with Dodging/Acrobatics?
[Crafting] (Physical Wisdom)
[Alchemy] (Mental Wisdom)
[Lore] (Mental Wisdom)
[Social] (Spiritual Power/Wisdom/Courage)
[Ride/Handle Animal] (Spiritual Courage)
>Not sure what else this could be used for besides mounts.

>>15077313
Well, it would be great but my primary game group wouldn't ever play it and my secondary game group is broken up

>>15077320
I like rolling |Brawl| and |Staves| into |Melee|; with the proper use of techniques and abilities, it should still pretty easy to build a specialist in the appropriate weapon.

|Armor| can probably be cut. There really isn't much use for it, and prerequisites for armor don't really make that much sense.

I think it'd be ok to have a few magic items, like the Deku Leaf and Gust Jar, go under |tools| rather than |magic|.

I'm against merging |Stealth| with |Acrobatics|; sneaking around is a very specific skillset, and I think it should be kept separate.

|Handle Animal| could just be rolled into |Social| as a Spiritual Courage application.

>>15077320
I see tons of physical and mental but only three spiritual. And spiritual is the only one not usable in combat. I think this needs revising.

>>15077355

Hell dude I'd play it. I'm drawing up the Pyro Deku Scrub as we speak.

>>15077405
Well there are only 3 Mental, and if we go with |Social| and |Music|, 2 Spiritual.

The point you're missing is that a lack of different skills for the stat doesn't mean a lack of uses for the stat. Yes, there are a lot of different "Physical" skills, but they pretty much all fall under different methods of "hitting things" and "not getting hit".

Also, not every stat should have combat applications. Spiritual was *never* intended for combat use.

I think [Willpower] (Spiritual Courage) ought to be a defense skill, in the same vein as [Shields] and [Acrobatics].

As it stands, Physical has far more skills than Mental and Spiritual combined.

I don't see much practical use for [Crafting] outside of jury-rigging loose material into useful items (which means it might work better as a part of [Tools], but that's another issue) or in forging some epic weapon (which might be a task better left to NPC's). But if Crafting goes, Alchemy doesn't make much sense to exist either.

>>15077404
Armor training could be bought like Techniques.

Going to take a stab at magic. Need to make up a template.

Name: Fireball
Focus: Fire Rod/Lantern/Candle
Virtue: Power
Cost: X
Range: 10
Effect: 1/2 heart Fire damage, 1/4 fire damage next round, Ignite flammables

Name: Freezing Orb
Focus: Ice Rod/Zora Scale/Tome
Virtue: Power
Cost: X
Range: 10
Effect: 1/4 heart Ice damage, cannot move and double damage from heavy weapons next round

Name: Fire Burst (Din's Fire)
Focus: Fairy Pact/Cane/Tome
Virtue: Power
Cost: XX
Range: 3x3 Area
Effect: 1/2 Heart fire to all enemies in range, Ignite flammables

Name: Rapid Recall (Farore's Wind)
Focus: Fairy Pact/Pearl/Necklace
Virtue: Wisdom
Cost: XXX for set, X for recall
Range: Self
Effect: Set a glowing way-point or teleport instantaneously to a previously set way-point

Name: Uplift
Focus: Wind Rod/Deku Leaf/Pearl
Virtue: Courage
Cost: XXX
Range: Self
Effect: Be flung up into the air and up to 5 meters in any direction. Attack can be made on descent for double damage.

Name: Magic Armor (Nayru's Love)
Focus: Fairy Pact/Pearl/Necklace
Virtue: Wisdom
Cost: XX per round
Range: Self
Effect: Reduce all damage taken by half


Name: Recovery
Focus: Fairy Pact/Pearl/Tome
Virtue: Wisdom
Cost: XX per heart restored
Range: 5
Effect: Restore hearts to a target equal to half the magic spent.

>>15077568
|Willpower| sounds like a good skill to have. And come to think of it, we should probably have a |Perception| skill based on Spiritual (or possibly Mental?) Wisdom for opposing |stealth|.

I could actually see |Alchemy| staying but |Craft| going; alchemy would mostly be for consumables, which in the games are relatively easy to come by compared to actual gear. Being able to craft swords and armor and such, on the other hand, seems contrary to the spirit of a Zelda game. Arrows are about the only thing I can see fitting as a craftable item.

And if we wanted to give Mental more to do, we could maybe split Lore into a few different categories. Maybe |religious lore|, |historical lore|, and |natural lore|?

>>15077696
I was doing magic somewhat as follows:

Din's Fire - Power
Cost: 2
Skill rank prerequisite: 3
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. For each success, deal 1 heart of [Fire] damage to all creatures and objects within 5 meters of you.

Nayru's Love - Wisdom
Cost: 6
Skill rank prerequisite: 3
This spell generates a diamond-shaped force field that prevents all damage that would be dealt to you for the next two rounds.

Farore's Wind - Courage
Cost: 3
Skill rank prerequisite: 3
This spell has two different effects.
The first time you cast it, it sets a magical marker at your current location.
Subsequently, you can cast it again to instantaneously warp back to the marker you set previously. This erases the marker; you must set another marker before you can warp again.
You may transport yourself and up to one additional creature for each rank you have in |magic|.

Fire Rod - Power
Cost: 2
Skill rank prereq - 1
Treat as an attack with range 10. Damage increment: 2 [Fire]
Enemies damaged by this attack catch fire for 1d3 rounds, taking 1/4 heart of damage each round.

>>15077696
Looks pretty good so far. My only concern is that most [Weapon]'s do damage based off of increments. So if someone gets 3 successes over the enemy with a good roll, with a hero sword, that's one attack with only one action. A Herosword warrior full attacking some random with with two actions can potentially do 2 hearts of damage in one turn, or even more.

Sure, you can Fire something up that is weak against fire, but a sword or bow can do just as much damage or more. Being very mana-costly but highly damaging would be nice.

Also, movement and casting. Should folks have to be immobile to chuck magic around?

>>15077904
So we aren't using the [Magic] skill for magic like we are [Melee] or [Ranged] skills for weapons?

>>15077948
No idea. There isn't any concrete rulings yet on how magic works.

I was sure that we were treating magic spells as items, so the magic skill would cover attacks too.

>>15077408

A quickie concept picture of my Deku Scrub Pyro

>>15078000
Ah, my mistake.

>>15078015
That's pretty damn awesome.

>>15078015
I never knew a Deku could ever look badass.

>>15078045

Yeah Im a notorious drawfag, is people put down stats and concepts I'll most likely concept em. I'll be drawing my Heavy user Hylian next.

First time seeing a thread about this. I'm not good on my Zelda lore but I'm curious about the opposed check system you guys picked. Any particular reason it was chosen? Know any features of the distribution of outcomes produced by such a system?

> If one party in the contest has more kept dice than the opponent, the extra dice are treated as unopposed, with a success threshold of 4.

This feature in particular seems strange to me, doesn't this mean you'd often be better off rolling against someone with an equal number instead of less (since the bottom dice in the comparison are likely to be smaller than 3 on average).

>>15078116
Oh wow.
Um...
Hylian Castle Guard that was suddenly struck by the PC Beam one day. Specializes in swords, shields, tools, and armor. Courage-heavy.
The idea I had for him was that he looked like the other guards, but without a helmet (because he's a main character now). Low Spiritual score, because he still thinks he's not a hero and rejects any ability to connect with others, socially or otherwise.

>>15077904
My intention with stuff like the rods would be that they're handled the same as a weapon attack, but using Mental and |magic| instead of Physical and the appropriate weapon skill, and shield defense wouldn't apply unless you had a suitable shield.

The mp costs will probably need some tweaking, though. It's kind of tricky to pin down since it doesn't seem like there's much correlation between magic meter sizes between the various games (or at least between LttP and the 3d games), and none of them have any numerical values that I can find.

>>15078121
Well actually, with the roll and keep system, if the enemy rolls atleast twice as many dice as he keeps, then he is likely to roll a 5 or 6 (55.555% or better). Also, I thought the threshold of 4 was inclusive, so each die could get a 4, 5, or 6 when unopposed.

>>15078167
Oh, I see. I hadn't noticed that the "keep" pile was likely to be quite small in comparison to total dice. The situation could still happen but would be quite rare.

>>15078121
Primarily we were looking for something that would be easy to make work with the virtue/attribute stat system, and roll & keep dice pools made the most sense for that. Linear comparison was adopted because it helps streamline play (no math necessary), and seems like it would help make for more possibility of give-and-take in opposed checks (as opposed to adding up the pools or counting successes against a target number).
The "unopposed dice only count on 4 or greater" bit was added because people felt that having unopposed dice be automatic successes might be too overpowering; however, this is one aspect of the dice system that would be easily changed if it proves to be an issue.

As far as looking at the actual probability spreads for the system, the closest we've come to that is noting that larger rolled pools would skew results up pretty strongly, and this link that was posted in the first thread for introducing the mechanics:
http://samhaine.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/dice-system-roll-and-keep-linear-comparison/

So in other words...not too much.

>>15078144

In the same vain, I kinda made him more paladin-esk, where he's a melee hitter but he dabbles in some defensive magic to keep his party standing like walls.

Heres a quickie concept.

>>15078226
Hm, well actually, given the way skills are handled currently, a character optimized for a particular action would likely have roughly equal roll and keep pools.

Assuming a maxed skill, a virtue maxed at character creation (but not improved since then), and an attribute maxed at creation and improved by one, you'd have a roll of 8k7.

If we dropped the "even-numbered skill ranks add to keep pool", it would be 8k4.

Personally, I'm not too great with this sort of probability stuff, but if somebody who does know how to do that sort of thing could break down the differences between these two, that'd be great.

>>15078316
That is way too high for a beginning character. How did you get those numbers?

Also, I think the rule for "Even-numbered ranks going into the Kept pool" meant that they didn't go into the Roll pool either. So if you had a skill rank of 2, you'd have 1 more die in the Rolled pool and 1 more die in the Kept pool, not 2 Rolled 1 Kept.

>>15078316
Correcting my post. The site is.com, and doesn't especially show results. It does show the added up value and probabilities of what you might get, from which you can divide by the dice to get an average. Not sure how helpful it might be with roll and keep, but it may come in handy.

http://www(dot)anydice.com/

Throw "output [highest 4 of 7d6]" into the text field, hit enter. Change as needed. Enjoy

>>15078420
This isn't for a beginning character, but for an endgamer.

6 skill ranks = +3 rolled, +3 kept
5 attribute score = +5 rolled
4 virtue = +4 kept

Total rolled: 5+3 = 8
Total kept: 4+3 = 7

For a newbie, you're looking at 6k6 for someone focusing entirely on one thing.
4 skill ranks (all 6 points invested in one skill): +2 rolled, +2 kept
4 attribute: +4 rolled
4 virtue: +4 kept

Total rolled: 4+2 = 6
Total kept: 4+2 = 6

This becomes 6k4 if skills don't contribute to the kept total.

>>15078310
I like it.
I normally make paladin-types, so I wanted something outside of the box for me. Was going for a more like Link, without the Wisdom or Spiritual aspects (I call him Lunk).
Amazing pic, though.

>>15078555

>Lunk

Lol Freelance Astronauts.

I don't wanna turn this into a drawthread if no one wants it but yeah, throw me some concepts I'll give ya some character designs, hell maybe even some list of props for the game!

>>15078310
I was hoping to jump on the request bandwagon my self.

I'm thinking a high power high spirit goron tank character. great axe, defensive abilities, and such.

>ordaysto mimic. good idea captcha

>>15078491
Hmmm
What if instead of every even rank going into the Kept pool, it's every 3rd rank?

That makes sure the Kept pool doesn't stay too small or get too big, while still diverting some of the dice away from the Rolled pool.

Skill progression would look like

>Rank 1: +1 R
>Rank 2: +2 R
>Rank 3: +2 R, +1K
>Rank 4: +3 R, +1K
>Rank 5: +4 R, +1K
>Rank 6: +4 R, +2K

so a minmaxed skill for a beginner character would be 7k5. Still big, but not as bad.

Again, I dunno.

So, there's been some discussion in the IRC channel about magic meter costs, and the consensus (such as there can be with so few people...it's rather lonely in there) there is that we should probably have each block on the magic meter correspond to 5 points to allow for small costs like use of the Lens of Truth.

The only change this would require to the character sheets currently made/in progress would be making the magic meter bar just a little bit taller, so that way players can write tally marks in the boxes. Each box should easily fit a block of 5 tallies.
And then we'd just change the calculation for magic meter from Mental + Magic to 5*(Mental + Magic).

Think we can go with that?

>>15078696
With Magic the way that it's written now, the maximum Magic Meter one could have would be around 12 (assuming Attributes cap at 6). So if you want each point of that to be 5 points, then that's a total of 60 magic points.

Even for a moderate magic user, with Magic 2 and Mental 3, that's 25 magic points.

That's really a lot to keep track of for a "simple" RPG system.

>>15078696
Aye, one of the people here that supports this. Most "magic" in the game eats off whole blocks, like the spin attacks taking one or two blocks, some spells eating four whole blocks. But then you have the lens of truth, zora energy, or goron spikes, that all eat a point every two seconds or a point a second, and they would only eat a partial block. The character sheet is fine as is, it just needs one line of explanation in the rules that a block is so many points.

>>15078696
You could also have passive things eat blocks over long periods of time.

Say you want Lens of Truth to cost 1 point per round, and you want each block to be 5 points.

Instead of altering the point values, alter the duration of the effect. So instead of the Lens costing 1 point for one round, have it cost 1 block (5 points) for 5 rounds.

>>15078677
Wait, what the heck are you doing with your rolled dice bonuses on those skill ranks? I'm not even seeing any sort of pattern there...

The bonuses should be:
>Rank 1: +1 R
>Rank 2: +1 R
>Rank 3: +2 R, +1K
>Rank 4: +2 R, +1K
>Rank 5: +3 R, +1K
>Rank 6: +3 R, +2K

Giving you 6k5 for a minmaxed starter character. Still feels a bit high to me.

What if we only gave a kept dice bonus when you max out the skill? This gives a minmaxed starter 6k4, a plausible minmaxed endgamer 8k5, and puts the absolute cap at 9k7.
A slightly more versatile character (3 Virtue, 3 Attribute, 3 Skill) would have 5k3 at creation, and an endgame pool of something like 7k4, assuming a one-rank improvement of the relevant Attribute and maxing out the skill.

The latter looks a bit more preferable to me, but I can't really back that up with any sort of hard stats. I'll have to play around with AnyDice tomorrow and see if I can't find a way to get it to give me info useful for our system...

>>15078676

Sorry for the delay.

>>15070548
>>15070620
check out the GM Resources section of the wiki. particularly Tags

>>15078894
I LOVE YOU DUDE!!

>4,071 rronal, and what is a rronal captcha?

>>15078858
If each round is a second, with that way you can't use the lens for just a couple rounds, use the zora energy fields for just a couple rounds, or spike roll for just a couple rounds. It's not exactly that crunchy for each block to be five points and have everything but duration effects use magic in blocks, and have duration effects use magic in points per second. Considering how two races personal spells are duration and point per second use, we need this to reflect them.

>>15078894
Well, now I've got to add in my potential: a Kokiri who utilizes a bow and arrows, with a particularly angry faerie companion. He's got blonde hair combed back and slightly long under his hat, the green tunic, and a wooden bow. Also planned on having him use a set of panpipes if you want to d those hanging from his belt.

>>15078867
Ranks 1-2 and 4-5 added to Rolled, and ranks 3 and 6 added to Kept. Each third rank in skill added to kept.

Not that it's a good solution, I'm just explaining my thinking.

Here's the character sheet so far, The grey dots on the Magic bar are for players to draw vertical lines through, to show their current maximum Magic. I'll add them to the Hearts soon enough.

I also should add some kind of calculation cheat-sheet above the skills area.

>>15078912
>If each round is a second,

I hope you're not serious.

>>15078922
I'd say just put it at the bottom with a character creation summary (X points for Virtues, X points for Attributes, X points for skills, not to exceed X maximums, starting Rupees, how to calculate Heart Meter and Magic Meter). Pretty much the same style of character creation summary that an NWoD character sheet has.

>>15078936
Agreed, a round that short internally needs initiative recalculated every round in my mind, just so the sequential crap is more fair.

3 seconds is the absolute shortest round I can ever imagine honestly, and even then.

>>15078918

There will be a delay, but I can get on it, the log has been saved anyway. Hold tight bro.

>>15078990
No rush, man. We've got plenty of time after all!

Right, so on the subject of magic meter usage: I just fired up my endgame save slot in LttP and measured out the magic consumption of the various items.

Magic powder and the cane of Somaria are cheapest, taking 32 uses to consume the entire magic meter.
Cane of Byrna consumes the whole magic meter in approximately 24 seconds.
The magic cape consumes the magic meter in approximately 16 seconds.
The fire and ice rods each take 16 shots to use up the magic meter.
The three medallions each take 8 uses to consume the magic meter.

Now, this is all with the magic meter upgrade, meaning I'm working with twice the base available supply of magic power.

In order to have a whole-number representation of the magic point total, we need to assume the smallest costs (the magic powder and cane of Somaria) are 3 points each. This puts the cane of Byrna at 4 points per second, the fire and ice rods at 6 points per shot, and the medallions at 12 points per use.

This is all for reference. I'm going to load up OoT next and see if I can get some data on that.

>>15078950
He was describing it in a "round per point" way, and the three abilities, two of which are core and one of which could feature in half of the campaigns, are all second/point in the amount of magic they eat.

If a round is three seconds, then they'd be eating 3 points per round.

>>15079156
Awesome, thanks dude! I'll fire up MM and do some rolling and swimming.

>>15079156
>I'm going to load up OoT next and see if I can get some data on that.

Nevermind, it would appear all my OoT saved games got erased at some point. And I know I don't have anything to work with for MM (which presumably should be basically in line with OoT in the first place) or WW...
But at any rate, at least we have the LttP info to work with.

>>15078922
that looks fucking beautiful so far. the gray dots are a nice touch.

>Ranks 1-2 and 4-5 added to Rolled, and ranks 3 and 6 added to Kept. Each third rank in skill added to kept.
what's wrong with alternating?

I agree that there should be a social skill, especially considering how shop owners and traveling merchants and swindlers and shit are kind of a theme in the games.
How aboooouuuuut....

|Sway| - How much influence your character has in social situations and how much he's able to sway others' opinions.

>>15079162
Though actually, if it's 3 seconds per round, that makes 6 points in 2 rounds, which you could just fudge down to 5 points per 2 rounds...

But then again, looking at the costs from LttP here, >>15079156, it looks like the maximum magic meter in that game was just shy of 100 points (96, to be precise), which supports the idea of dividing the 20-block bar on the charsheet into 5 points per block.

>>15079251
>what's wrong with alternating?
It keeps the kept die totals right up on the rolled pool size, which kind of defeats the purpose of the roll & keep system and could possibly stand to cause some weird balance/probability issues. We'll probably need to get some detailed stats on how different dice pool compositions affect the outcomes to settle on a final outline of how skills should contribute.

>|Sway| - How much influence your character has in social situations and how much he's able to sway others' opinions.

I actually really like this. The name clearly indicates it as a social skill, but in such a way that it stays a good fit for an RPG based on a video game with a silent protagonist. Plus the description can neatly encapsulate most any kind of social interaction, including animal handling.

>>15079188
Initial thing, goron rolling, Spikes seem to eat two "points", or two pixels, the smallest unit of magic power, every second. Rolling consumes a full magic meter every 30 seconds, for 60 points total.

Zora Energy field, same consumption, 2 pixels a second for 30 seconds.

Lens of Truth... 5 seconds... 5 seconds for it to take a pixel, 300 seconds or 5 whole minutes before it ate the whole bar.

The other spells in the game, Fire, Ice and Light Arrows, Actually list an MP cost. Fire and ice at MP2, 30 shots. Light Arrows at MP 4, 7 shots with a 3 pixel chunk left over.

And there it is.

>>15078918

Ta-Da!

>>15079156
>>15079384
/tg/ gets shit done.

>>15079384
So then, consolidating what we've learned thus far:

>LttP
Maxed out magic meter of 96 magic points; costs are 3 mp/use for magic powder and cane of Somaria, 4 mp/sec for cane of Byrna, 6 mp/sec for magic cape, 6 mp/shot for fire and ice rods, and 12 mp/use for the medallions.

>MM
Maxed out meter has 60 points; costs are 2 pts/sec for Goron and Zora specials, 1 pt/5 sec for Lens of Truth, 2 pts/shot for fire and ice arrows, and 4 pts/shot for light arrows.

Presumably, OoT has the same magic costs and meter size as MM, and according to the Zelda wiki the spells in OoT cost 6 pts per use for Din's Fire and Farore's Wind, and 12 pts per use for Nayru's Love.

Hey guys I know we got a good list of races to pick from but I noticed there are afew left I can see as playables. While some of these may be plausible, some may not, but thats all up to what you guys think.

I feel these races-

Can be worked in easy-
Twili
Skull Kids

Are a shot in the dark-
Subrosians
Minish
Fairies
Stalfos
Koroks

>>15079707
I'm down with Twili and Skull Kids (was actually considering both of those myself) but I think the rest are pushing it as playable characters (i had also briefly considered Subrosians before).

...maybe Koroks.

I'm sorry to bring this up again, but I can't get over calling the social attribute "spiritual". "Spiritual" in no way implies "social" and in the context of the Zelda universe very, very heavily implies "magic", which is the domain of the "mental" attribute.
Could we maybe make "spiritual" the magic attribute and just let |Instruments| and social rolls fall under "mental" as a broader category? That would at least make a modicum of sense

>>15079707
I'd say Koroks seem like less of a a longshot than Skull Kids. Twili seem doable for sure though.

>>15079934
Think of it like an indomitable spirit, a broken spirit, a friendly spirit, etc.

>>15080047
yeah, but that's spirit, not spiritual
spirit and spiritual mean two completely different things. I had suggest changing spiritual to spirit for that very reason (because spirit actually means what you said. spiritual doesn't) and changing the stats to "Body/Mind/Spirit". Several people liked the idea, but one or two people were against it so it never got changed.

>>15080097
I think the reason for opposition was that it creates easily remembered two word phrases. Spiritual Courage, Physical Wisdom, Mental Power, etc.

>>15080120
you can change the attribute names and keep the toward phrases. it should be obvious which attributes each one correlates to

>>15080225
meant "two word", not "toward"

>>15080225
>>15080120
just think of it in terms of "Courageous Spirit" rather than "Spiritual Courage"

same applies to the others

it's not a "Spiritual Power", it's a "Powerful Spirit"

all of them should probably be phrased this way to avoid confusion and to outright sound better

although, while I guess a "Powerful Physique" sounds good, a "Wise" or "Courageous Physique" does not

maybe we should just change the word to "body"?

>>15080840
another argument for the virtues going before the attributes is that they're the more important features, as far as the lore is concrned

If you're going to be authentic, you need to allow the player to obtain the rare and coveted lawnmower, a machine which can find rupees with frightening precision.

>>15080929
I thought the "lawnmower" eliminated grass with ease, but also broke and scratched up rupees.

>>15080860
also if you look on the character sheet the virtues are on the left and attributes are on the right

>>15080840
what about:
Power of Body, Power of Mind, Power of Spirit
Wisdom of Body, Wisdom of Mind, Wisdom of Spirit
Courage of Body, Courage of Mind, Courage of Spirit
?

>>15080969
"Courage of Spirit" sounds wiereder than "Courageous Body" I think

eh... then again, they both sound weird

>>15080983
yeah. my biggest concern though is that attributes are integral to gameplay, so we need to try to be as clear as possible with naming them. especially since they're a key feature on the character sheet. the argument for keeping "spiritual" is more aesthetic than anything

This looks really promising. Keep up the good work!

Hey, were did Sir Sage go?

I came up with some Twili racial benefits which do you guys think is better?

Twili
4 Mass
6 Movement


[Magic] items have, or can switch out for the affiliation of Dark.

Gain 1/4th Heart Regeneration each round while standing within shadow.

Take +1 damage from Light based sources.

While standing in a shadow, Twili can warp instantly at their movement +2 for as long as the shadow allows them to move.

>>15079419
Dude. Thanks! Even the '... what are you angry about NOW, Ara?' face is awesome.

Body/Mind/Spirit seems good, but it's hard to pair it with the Virtues without them sounding weird. It can go either way.

Also, don't consider the Character Sheet when you're trying to make game mechanics. Technically, the sheet should be the last thing completed.

As for Magic points and round durations: Each character takes two actions on their turn. Everyone has been working on the assumption that each round takes at least 5-6 seconds, like in D&D.

The magic system must be made to fit the initiative sytem, not the other way around. There's no way to justify 1-3 second rounds just for the sake of tracking a small magical effect.

>>15080969
Personally, I think I can get behind this.

>>15081126
If you mean me, hey. Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I've been... busy. Give me a few minutes to read this thread and the previous one, and then I'll get right back to contributing.

>>15081572
For the magic system, I think expanding magic points to 5 times Mental + |Magic|, and representing it on the character sheet as 5 points/block is the way to go. For one, it gives more flexibility for pricing smaller effects, like the cane of Somaria and the lens of truth. For another, if we use that formula, then the absolute cap for mp would be 60 points, which, according to the calculations made earlier in the thread (>>15079532), is the same size as the magic meter in Majora's Mask (and presumably OoT as well?).

And finally, the main argument against the larger magic point total is here: >>15078776
>That's really a lot to keep track of for a "simple" RPG system.

Which...I'm not really seeing. Just increasing the numbers is not that complicated to do, and I don't think anyone would really have trouble with it. It's not like you actually have physical markers for each point in your magic meter, it's all an abstraction in the first place. The expanded point total just allows for a representation of magic use that's closer to the games in terms of point costs.

>>15077320
In my personal opinion, I thought bombs would be Courage-based, instead of power, for some reason. With things like Bombchus being Wisdom instead.

Would the Alchemy skill allow one for craft bombs, or is it just for potions n' shit?

It still just doesnt make any sense to me that a bomb is operated with the same skill as a bow and arrow.

>>15078015
Bad. Ass. I had actually had an idea for a Power/Magic based Deku Pyro before I even read yours. Think you can draw him too? I was picturing basically one of those Mad Scrubs from OoT (with the autumn-colored leaves) spitting huge waves of fire instead of Deku Nuts.

As for Armor being its own skill, How about we go with the suggestion that armor training is bought like techniques?

>>15081994
(Forgot to mention, the Scrub had a charred Eyepatch, and unbarked "scars" all over.)

Other than that, I don't think I have any complaints with this thread. Nice to see that the project I started got THIS MUCH support and momentum!

>>15077696
Would a frozen enemy take extra damage from Bombs, as well?

>>15081994
>Re: Bombs

Personally, I think run-of-the-mill bombs make more sense under Power than Courage, though I agree bombchus should be Wisdom-based.
I always thought it would make more sense for bombs to go under |tools| and boomerangs under |ranged|. While both (like pretty much every item) have both weapon and tool uses, I always felt that boomerangs leaned more toward the weapon side in the games, whereas bombs were more for exploration and puzzle-solving, but for the few enemies that you specifically need them for.

>>15081914
I'm not so much against using tally marks for duration trackers for Magic as I am against having to change the initiative system to fit small duration effects.

Can you give an example of how you currently plan on using Magic cost? Use the Lens as an example, maybe.

...hm. Is someone going to archive this? I think we're almost at the bump limit.

>>15082113
Judging by the data from the games, and assuming the 60-pt absolute cap on magic you'd get from 5*(Mental+Magic):

The lens of truth uses 1 mp/5 sec, which would translate well to 1 mp/round for our game.
The Zora and Goron special abilities cost 2 mp/sec in the games, so that translates to roughly 10 mp/round.

All the per-use effects from OoT and MM could stay the same as they are in the games if we went with the expanded mp total.

If we converted the costs for the LttP items:
Magic powder and the cane of Somaria would be 2 mp/use.
The cane of Byrna would be 2.5 mp/sec, or 15 mp/round.
The magic cape would be 3.75 mp/sec, which translates to roughly 20 mp/round.
The fire and ice rods would be 3.75 mp/shot, which we can round to 4 mp/shot.
And the medallions cost 7.5 mp/use, which can be rounded to 8/use.

Now, these costs may need some tweaking for balance, but as you can see they translate pretty well to a system where you get magic points = 5*(Mental + Magic)

>>15082308
We have a bit to go before bump limit yet (assuming I don't get ninja'd, we'd be at 225 posts out of 300, counting this one), but I'll get the archival.

Character idea. More like party idea.

A Zora with a cutlass in cloth garb, A Goron cannoneer with an eyepatch in leathers, and an Armored Gerudo wind mage.

Together they sail the high seas!

>>15082361
I don't have the proper reaction image, but take all my money. I'll go get my tablet.

P.S. what kind of armor do you want the Gerudo in? obviously female, or Iron Knuckle?

>>15082402
Well, I envisioned it something like iron knuckle, but maybe with a slightly more feminine appearance. Something like when Nabooru was turned into one. Maybe have the face wrapped in cloths like Garo from Majora's mask to give it a kind of final fantasy black-mage type look

>>15082336
I still think that magic should be measured in blocks, which could possibly go up to 30 if needed. The beauty of the Heart system is that it's more fun to look at and easier to record than individual hit points. It seems unusual not to do the same for magic.

You can change around the value of the magic spells too. They don't have to be accurate to the video games if they're imbalanced or confusing to implement on the tabletop.

Keep in mind too, that the players of the game are not Link. More likely than not there will be at least 3 characters in a party, who can divide up magic use among them. They could probably get away with a maximum of 30 blocks.

>>15082562
>More likely than not there will be at least 3 characters in a party, who can divide up magic use among them.

The problem is, this is not an accurate assumption. In order to use magic effectively, you'd need to all put ranks into the magic skill. And if you want to specialize in magic, a smaller magic bar is going to really cramp your style.
Plus a bigger mana bar makes for a more accurate representation of the cheaper effects, like the lens of truth. 1 mp/round is a lot simpler than 1 mp/2 rounds or 5 rounds or what have you.

A 60-point cap can easily be represented on the character sheet without changing the use of the mana bar with blocks -- just treat each block on the mana bar as 5 mp (much like you can think of each heart as 4 hp), and mark off tallies in a block as you use it, as in the pic. Just make the magic bar a little bit broader on the character sheet to make it easier to mark in, and there you go.

>>15082562
>>15082645
Also, there's the fact that assuming a 60-point maximum magic meter makes for much simpler and more straightforward magic-point calculation. The way it currently stands, with mp = Mental + Magic, your maximum is 12. That number is not easy to work with for pricing effects.
If we make it mp = 5(Mental + Magic), you can still represent it on the character sheet as 1 block on the magic meter for each point in Mental and Magic, and it makes it easier to price magic effects flexibly.

Having a magic meter capacity of 20 or 30 would be significantly more complicated to calculate from your stats.

>>15082645
I can compromise with tallies if they only apply to small duration effects. I don't think that things like attack spells should be any smaller than one block/ 5MP, and duration effects shouldn't be things like 2 or 3 mp/round.

We should probably keep in mind magic restoring items, too. I don't know if we want players to smash open pots during fights to find magic jars, though, but it might be an interesting way to recover lost resources.

>>15082758
What's so bad about using smaller costs for weaker attack spells? If we use bigger costs, we'll necessarily need to make the effects requiring those costs more powerful. You'd wind up with magic-focused characters having extremely powerful effects that can only be used a handful of times before they run out of juice. And keep in mind that you'd only hit the 60-point cap if you min/maxed specifically for magic -- a more balanced character is looking at magic meter capacities more in the 40-50 range by endgame.

You'd need a gap with very weak effects (like the cane of Somaria) costing no magic, and then the next step up would cost significantly more (most likely 1/10 of your total capacity), while also being extremely powerful. Partial costs (such as 2 mp/shot for fire or ice arrows) give a nice middle ground.
They also give you more flexibility. If small-cost, duration-based effects like the Lens of Truth are the only thing that cost less than a full block, then using it for just one or two rounds is no better than using it until you've expended an entire block, since you'd then have a partial block that only the weak, sustained effect can make use of.

Simply put, I think sticking to the "one block = one spell" rule makes it more difficult and complicated than "one block = 5 mp" and having smaller effects that use partial blocks.

>>15082825
I just want to avoid lots of tracking.

Also since it looks like just the two of us arguing, maybe we need outside opinions.

>>15082758

Attack spell could be 5mp/1block

Duration spell 1mp/round but lasts for 5 rounds, can cancel at will.

Easy tracking, only need to fraction blocks off if a player cancels a spell midway.

>>15082758
What about some kind of technique? Call it Luck of the Picori or something. Say the Picori look out for them, and they can take one round to search, and then roll 1d6, with a random table including things like a swallow of red potion, enough to restore 1 heart, a swallow of green potion, enough to restore 1 MP, a single rupee, a bomb or arrow, etc.

I think 1 block to 1 MP seems easier to work with, but whatever.

>>15082895
Essentially, my position is that, while partial-block costs may require slightly more bookkeeping, it makes magic-users a bit more useful. Keeping spell costs in full-block increments will tend to make casters into high-power, short-endurance actors. Unless we make magic-recovery items ubiquitous, mages would need to be very careful about when they use their magic, to avoid running dry too fast. But on the other hand, when they do use their magic, they'll rock the house, because you'll need big effects to justify the big costs. You'll wind up with magic specialists being dead weight 75% of the time, wanting to conserve power but winding up unable to do much of anything important as a result, and carrying the team the other 25% when they do cut loose.
Smaller costs lets mages spread their power out better, being able to contribute more moderately and consistently.


>Also since it looks like just the two of us arguing, maybe we need outside opinions.
This is a good point, though. Can we get some more input here?

I'm a little confused about the dice probabilty. When two dice are rolled the first dice should have a 50% chance of being higher thatn the second (purposely ignoring them being equal)

But unopposed dice also have a 50% chance of success as they succeed on 4,5,6. Does this mean that 3 kept dice versus 3 kept dice is the same as 3 kept dice versus1 kept dice?

Somone clear this up for me

>>15083160
I'm actually working on trying to figure out the complete probability spread right now. I'll get back to you in a bit.

But yeah, the dice system probably needs some tweaks, since nobody's actually worked out the probability spreads yet.

>>15083160
Remember that since the extra kept dice you keep are your high dice there is a higher probability of success on larger dice pools than 50%.

>>15082984

Partial blocks. Split them into quads like health.

>>15082050
I think bombs should be courage-based.
My stepdad was in the army. He was going through boot camp, and thy got to the part about Grenade use. You and two other guys would stand in a hole and each activate and throw a live grenade into another hole nearby.

There was this kid. Slight frame, nervous all the time. Only joined because his dad bullied him into it, wanted to quit but couldn't stand the shame of that either.

Anyways, he and his two partners for this exercise got in the hole. First guy goes, makes some joke about "If I held this instead of throwing it, I'd kill us all" and laughed.
Second guy goes.
Now it's the skinny guy's turn. He picks the grenade up and pulls the pin... and freaks out. He dropped it. All three of them died because he lost his nerve.
This is a true story, and represents exactly why explosives (minus the Powder Keg) should be handled by Courage.

As for magic, remember that the maximum a character could get without the Great Fairy's help was half a bar. Maybe that should be our baseline instead of a full bar?

>>15083351
On the other hand, Link wasn't a particularly magic-focused character. A dedicated sage shouldn't have any trouble getting a larger supply of magic.

How's this for a way to handle the magic meter?

Total of 60 subdivisions, divided into 12 blocks of 5 divisions each. Gives the flexibility and correspondence to the video games >>15082984 wants, while letting players easily keep track of magic meter usage by simply ticking off boxes, same as we have with the fractions of hearts.
Also, this bar is exactly the same dimensions as the one on >>15078922 this character sheet; I just copypasta'd it into MSpaint and drew in different subdivisions.

>>15083880

One resource is broken into fourths. The other broken into fifths. Really? Why? Why not just have more blocks and not divide them? Seems arbitrary if we're going to allocate different costs to each spell now anyways.

>>15084050
Since magic meter would be calculated by N*(Mental + |magic|), it makes sense to have major and minor divisions -- one major division for each point you have in Mental or |magic|, and each major division split into N subdivisions. Plus it's just easier to work with and nicer to look at when you have major and minor divisions rather than loads of equivalent divisions.

As for why hearts are in fourths and magic in fifths, it's to make it easier to draw parallels to the video games. You typically take damage in the games in multiples of 1/4 heart, and your magic meter in MM and OoT holds 60 points at maximum capacity, as determined in >>15079384 and >>15079532.

>>15084207
We're not nescesarily trying to be exact to the games; we're trying to make an easy-to-use magic system.

As a side note, here's a 40 point meter for no good reason.

sorry but i missed how magic works in this system .

it's mana style. like 2 manabars for a "Fireball" ??

>>15084331
>We're not nescesarily trying to be exact to the games; we're trying to make an easy-to-use magic system.

True, but on the other hand if following the games works then there's no sense in changing it just to be different. I for one think that the 60-point bar >>15083880 here kills two birds with one stone. The costs line up with the 3d games, it's easy to calculate from the stats (just 5 x [Magic + Mental]), and with the magic meter laid out like that it's easy to keep track of costs.

A differently sized magic meter (say, 40 or 50 points) would be trickier to calculate, and would require more work to convert effects from the games to the pen-and-paper version. I think the only way it could be any simpler would be if you just used a straight one-to-one conversion from the stat points like was originally planned (giving a 12-point maximum), but this runs into a number of issues. When every magic effect takes up a significant fraction of your available magic meter, you wind up severely limiting what a magic-focused character can do. If the magic is too weak for the cost, it becomes a sideline skill -- something you might dip into to supplement the main focus of the character, but not worth focusing on. If the magic effects are made strong enough to accurately reflect the cost, you wind up with magic being a "secret weapon" of sorts -- something powerful enough to define the outcome of a scene with just one or two spells, but so costly that this can only be done sparingly.

>>15084422
Yes, magic is going to be, for the most part, "mana" based, just like how you have a magic meter in the video games.
We're just trying to figure out exactly how your magic meter should be calculated, so that way we can figure out how to set the costs for things that consume your magic points.

>>15084643
As a base, let's look at what starting characters would have.
Since we haven't decided what the formula is for magic, we should look at what should be viable for a beginning character.

An average beginning Power-based character would be able to deal 1 heart per success. Assuming he starts with 6k3, he deals a max of 3 hearts per action.
An average starting Courage character deals 1/2 heart per success, with 6k3, he deals 1 1/2 hearts maximum per action.
Let's say a beginner Wisdom character has 20 magic points, and knows Din's Fire and Magic Bolt (think what Ganondorf uses on Young Link in front of Hyrule Castle). Din's Fire costs 6, and takes a whole round to use. If we assume a character gets to roll and keep like any other attack, they should deal as much as a Physical Power character (1 heart per success), since they expend a (admittedly renewable) resource to attack. This gives him 3 attacks before his MP is expended. Now let's say he uses Magic Bolt. It targets one enemy, and costs... 2 MP. Also we'll assume it deals 1/2 heart of damage. He can use this 10 times, at range, to deal what the Physical Courage-based character deals.
Yes, there are a lot of assumptions, but I think this works out nicely. You have more variety of attack options at the expense of a limited amount of uses.

>>15069694
I like the 20 block thing, with each block being 5 points, for a nice round 100 points and most spells using up one or more blocks, with only certain effects eating up partial blocks.

>>15084784
This sounds pretty reasonable.

Let's see how this would look with the 60-point magic meter...
A fully min-maxed mage would have 40 mp ([4 |magic| + 4 Mental] x 5). If we use the costs calculated here >>15082336, that gives 20 shots with a relatively weak spell (such as fire arrows), 10 shots with a slightly stronger one (such as the fire rod, or perhaps Ganondorf's magic bolt), or 6 uses of a reasonably strong spell (like Din's Fire), or 5 of a really strong one, such as one of the LttP medallions.

Given that such a heavily min-maxed character would be unable to do pretty much anything else (having no ranks in any skill besides |magic|), this strikes me as pretty fair, particularly if we make sure the magic meter isn't too easy to replenish.

A more versatile character might have 30 mp, which would be 15 shots of a weak effect, 7 with a moderate, 5 of a strong one, and 3 of a top-tier one.

>>15084814
The one problem with a 100-point (or 20-block) cap is that it would require a weird calculation to derive from our stat system, since all our stats cap at 6, a number which 100 is not even divisible by.

>>15084937
Ah, derp, I forgot that skills cap at 3 for character creation, not 4. This would put the mp capacity for a min/maxed character at 35, not 40, which would mean 17 weak (2 pt) spells, 8 moderate (4 pt) spells, or 4-5 strong (6-8 pt) spells.

>>15085040
I believe the original intention was that if playing a magical character, you begin with a number of whole blocks. So starting character would have 4, 3, 9 blocks or something. In the games magic is typically gained upon learning your first ability that uses it, and is a set amount balanced to the campaign and deriving from no other stats.

>>15085175
Hm, so more like hearts, then? Some constant + Mental, or + 1/2 Mental? And then further expansions of the Magic Meter have to be acquired, much like heart containers...

That could work. Though I still think there should be at least a few per-use effects that use partial blocks, assuming characters will start at 10 blocks or less. Giving people options is generally a good thing, provided the array of options presented isn't overwhelming, and I don't think having a handful of weak effects like the cane of Somaria and fire arrows that cost only 2 or 3 points per use rather than blocks of 5 is at all overwhelming. It's always nice when you have a choice beyond "Huge Spell that eats 1/5 of my mp", "Even More Huge Spell that eats 1/2 of my mp", and "do nothing of value so I can save my mp for when I might really need those Huge Spells".
And it's even worse when even your wimpy spell eats a big chunk of your mp. It's all about flexibility.

Sorry I don't have anything to contribute on the magic meter discussion (though the blocks confuse me; the were no divisions in the games, just a straight meter.)

However, it seems someone mislabeled this thread in the archive. This is thread #6, but it says #5.

Gentlemen...I bring you CRUNCH!

I found a tool (http://www.fnordistan.com/smallroller.html) that can output probabilities for single dice in a pool rather than simply taking the sum every time, and I've used it to put together a spreadsheet of the probability of getting a certain number of dice at or above a given number, using rolled pools ranging from 1d6 to 10d6.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjlBKq_uScFFdFJhV0JibWEtS3FIbnBYc2Q2bm5vMlE&
;hl=en_US

As for seeing how kept pools play into this, use the columns under each rolled pool. The first column (probability of at least one die meeting or exceeding the number) is for your first die, the second column is your odds for the second, and so on.

>>15085550
>However, it seems someone mislabeled this thread in the archive. This is thread #6, but it says #5.

Ah, derp. My bad...

The whole issue with blocks on the magic meter is that we'll necessarily need some way to quantify magic meter use, so rather than just using straight numbers we could divide the magic meter on the character sheet into blocks and have each block correspond to a certain amount of mp, much like each heart can be viewed as 4 hp.
The debate is over how many blocks there should be, and how much each should be worth; in other words, how much mp should be available to characters for use of magic.

>>15085590
My opinion on the "blocks" of magic, is that there should be a max of 10 blocks, containing 6 each. Din's Fire and Farore's Wind both take 6 (1 block), Naryu's Love takes 12 points (2 blocks), Fire Arrows and Ice Arrows both take 2 points each (three per block)... the only thing that doesn't conform exactly is Light Arrows, and that's because it's double the power of a lesser arrow.

>>15081994

I'll have to make a rain check on that. It's memorial day weekend and I'm at my girls place. But I'll be taking some more request if anyone wants some quickie concepts of their want to be characters.

>>15085570
Someone who knows maths should take a look at this.

>>15086041
Can you do this?
>>15082361

>>15086589

Gimmie until Monday night and then yes.

Also just a relook on the Twili as a race.vWould you all rather-

Twili
4 Mass
6 Movement

Gain 1/4th Heart Regeneration each round while standing within shadow.
Take +1 damage from Light based sources.

Or

Twili
4 Mass
6 Movement

While standing in a shadow, Twili can warp instantly at their movement +2 for as long as the shadow allows them to move.
Take +1 damage from Light based sources.

>>15086720
1st one is probably more useful.

Second one might be more balanced.

I like the first one personally. But Maybe it should be a blessing of shadow and cost magic as a passive ability.

>>15086720
I rather like the warping one. It's not as useful in combat, but it could be really useful for puzzles. Feels like a much better fit for a Zelda game, I think.

>>15086769

I did attempt to make a passive where their magic can have a [Dark] affiliation, but yeah now that I think about it the warping one sounds much more useful for puzzles.

What was the rationale for kokiri as a playable race? They can't leave the lost woods, can they?

>>15086834
Should probably have a cooldown or something, though so you don't have Twili just warping around the battlefield all willy-nilly.

>>15086864
I think everyone wants to hand-wave that as superstition. Someone will want to play a little guy that's not a deku.

>>15086864

And yet they all went to Lon-Lon Ranch for a huge "Fuck Gannondorf" Party

rolled 39 = 39

>>15086888
That's in the "Adult world" end, so maybe it has something to do with the New Deku tree?

>>15086911
That was one of the justifications given, yes. The other main one was that the whole "they die if they leave the woods" thing was just a myth arising from the fact that none who leave ever return. The actual reason they don't return is that, upon seeing how huge the outside world is, their childlike sense of curiosity leads them to want to explore it all, so they never want to return.

>>15086875

Twili
4 Mass
6 Movement

While standing in a shadow, Twili can warp instantly at their movement + 1 per MP use for as long as the shadow allows them to move. After they warp they must wait one turn to wrap once more.
Take +1 damage from Light based sources.

Like this?

>>15084207

Sorry, just got out of work. I'm >>15084050. I would just like to say that all I was trying to say is let's split both into fourths. It parallels much better. Just a consideration.

>>15087743
That would work as long as we don't basing magic capacity directly off of the stats, which I guess we're leaning toward now? Maybe?
The suggestions are all over the place, so it's hard to say where the consensus (if any) lies.

I still say however we end up dividing the magic meter, we shouldn't try to make everything fit into even block multiples. The added flexibility in the range of effects you could have and the added ease of converting spells from the video games to tabletop versions would be tremendously beneficial, and the slight increase in complexity really would not be a big deal. Not once have we questioned players' ability to keep up with fractions of hearts in damage; why should magic meter subdivisions be different? I think if people can handle weapons dealing 1/2 or 3/4 of a heart, they can handle spells costing 2/5 or 1/2 of a block on the magic meter. It's not exactly rocket science. Hell, with the magic meter on the character sheet rather than numerical mp totals, it's not even elementary-school math -- the slots are right there, all you have to do is count them up and mark them off.
And as >>15083880 shows, it's not like we can't have a usable and aesthetically-pleasing magic meter with many small subdivisions.

In short, smaller subdivisions lets us better balance a wider variety spell effects, and makes it easier to import magic effects directly from the games, without imposing any significant hurdles to gameplay. There's a lot to gain, and basically nothing to lose.

>>15088052
>as long as we don't basing magic capacity

Herp-dee-derp, I love it when I think of two different ways to phrase something and wind up with the retarded bastard child of the two...
>as long as we aren't basing magic capacity
>as long as we don't base magic capacity

I did some dabbling in some other races for shits and giggles, take a look see.

Fairy

Mass: 0
Movement: 10

Fairies can heal any party member to their full amount of hearts through touch. The Fairy must exspend all MP and cannont resuse this skill untill his or her MP is fully restored
Fairies take +2 to all Non Magic sources.

~~~~~

Stalfo

Mass: 3
Movement: 7

Stalfo's gain +1 Ability.
Stalfo's take +1 to all Light Magic sources.

~~~~~

Subrosians

Mass: 2
Movement: 8

Subrosians can swim in lava taking no damage and can manuver in lava at their movement speed.
Subrosians take +1 to all Ice Magic sources.

~~~~~

Skull Kid

Mass: 3
Movement: 7

Skull Kids gain a +1 Keep die to all Spiritual Attribute rolls.
Skull kids take a +1 to all non magic sources

>>15087743
I don't know what to do with it until we figure out how many magic points things will cost.

Right now I'm using the 40MP Magic Meter (2 subdivisions) but that might change depending on what makes sense.

Also, when are we due for a new thread?

>>15088083
>Stalfo's gain +1 Ability.
>Ability

...why didn't I think of that?

We should change the term Attribute to Ability (if only because it's easier to write on the sheet) unless there are any major disagreements.

>>15088097
New thread when old one ascends to Auto-Sage of Wisdom.

As for MP, due to study I figured enough had settled on the sheet being 20 blocks, each block representing 5 points, and then only the cost of spells was being debated.

The spell cost debate is "copy the game spell point costs" or "go with a spell point cost that uses whole blocks for standard spells and only partial blocks for duration effects."
I am changing my side of the argument to support "using the MP costs from the games".

>>15088097
I think a 60-point meter with 4 subdivisions (for 15 total blocks) makes the most sense, since that way we can use the costs from the N64 games (and possibly WW?) as-is. And it looks like the costs for stuff from LttP are easily convertible to a 60-point system as well.

>>15088139
Personally, I've always felt that "Ability" was better used in the context of "special abilities", so I'm in favor of keeping it with "Attribute". It took me forever to get used to your stats in D&D being referred to as "abilities".
Plus a name change just for the new name being easier to write seems a bit...yeah...

>>15088158
Here's a 15 block and 12 block magic meter, each with 60 points.
Which one would work better? If Skills and Attrubilities cap at 6, 12 makes the most sense.

>>15088348
I guess it depends on whether we want to calculate magic directly from skills/attributes, or if we want to do it more like hearts, with a slightly flexible starting total expanded by acquiring upgrades in-game.
If we base it on skills/attributes, the 12-block format definitely makes the most sense. However, the 15-block format would be nice in that most all of the costs determined for spells from the video games are even numbers, with virtually no multiples of 5.

>>15088348
Even though the subdivisions are smaller, the second one looks less cramped to me.

>>15089064
Actually, the subdivisions are the same size in both -- either way, it's 60 small blocks to a full bar.

The reason the 12-block bar looks less cramped is that there's more space between thick dividers.

>>15089064
What? The subdivisions are the same size if I'm not mistaken.

Not sure if people who were working on magic knew about this or not, but this link seems useful.

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Spells_of_The_Adventure_of_Link

Dunno if they should be tied to items or not, but they seem like a good arrangement for an RPG.

In addition after we get probability/magic/pool size figured out, we could figure out how transformation magic works. It happens a lot, and while it probably wouldn't need a skill, it would fit the Spiritual attribute very well.

Wow, you guys are more mature than I expected. Can't believe no one has pointed out that Zelda must be hiding a king-sized cock in OP's pic.

We need a new thread.
Please.

Here it is: >>15091730