>>13784418
Make the Romans less of a human enemy, and more like a tide of civilization that can't be realistically halted or defeated. This will give the game a sense of urgency, so that the players flee deeper into uncivilized land, perhaps to avoid bounties on their heads. Maybe they were once friends/soldiers/retainers of Jugurtha, and are now wanted to complete Marius's trophy collection?
You could also have a cool side story in which the PCs help Sulla undermine his rival for control of Rome, maybe through some fantastic means like finding a relic for him or something. It'd explain how he kept winning those ridiculous battles. (Charonea, anybody?)

Anyone? Come on, deserts are cool.

>>13784523
sorry mate. all I have is an character that came from an desert. cant hel more than that

>>13784514
That's a good idea. Making the players criminals (through no necessary fault of their own) before the game actually starts might be a good way to compel them towards the wasteland.

How much do you know about that area's warfare and whatnot? I know a few things, but I don't want to just vomit it out if you know already.

>>13784603
Go for it. I'm not much of an expert.

>>13784651
Alright, what you're looking at, basically, is a force that developed in a desert out of nomadic traditions. The mongols were similar, given that they were both pastoral and favored ranged weapons, but dissimilar in that the Numidians never had equivalent technology.
Saddles? No sir.
Bows? None short and strong enough to be effectively fired from horseback
Metal? Pff, stayed in the bronze age well into Rome's Imperial era.
What the Numidians brought to the table was horsemanship, good horse stock, and a high degree of personal skill at navigating such terrain. Numidian cavalry was what Hannibal used to pwn the Romans multiple times. They usually operated by flinging javelins with one hand during the charge, and then quickly drawing a second, slightly heavier spear to use as a lance.
Their infantry wasn't anything special, I don't even think it was mentioned by Roman writers during the Jugurthian war. I do know they didn't have phalanxes and whatnot, as they lacked hellanistic influence.

So, what you want to do is capitalize in cavalry. That's pretty much the life's blood of the Numidians, and other Saharan dwellers. I don't know how much your players will like the idea of playing a group of mounted warriors, but the idea has merit. The real question is what you're going to face. Depending on how much fantasy you're allowing here, I'd recommend gnolls. They're a good enemy for the region.

>>13784808
Right, bronze age. Damn it. I forgot about the bronze age.

Alright, secondary question then, what do I do about bronze weaponry? How does one represent equipment of inferior materials? Decreased hardness seems practical, but maybe a chance of blunting or bending the weapon would be a good idea too?

>>13784904
You play Pathfinder? Have it gain the broken status on a natural 1, and just make it easier to repair. Bronze bends out of shape pretty easily, but by logical extension, is easy to bend back into shape. Not like lead or something ridiculous like that, but it's definitely much softer than iron.
Also, in keeping with the theme here, make your PCs poor. Deny them wealth, deal in silver pieces at best and represent the general poverty of the region.
Want to buy full plate? Fuck no we got none of those, but would you like a goat? We have goats. Also, really sweet horses.

I don't know dick about Roman era Africa, but I want to say that there's been a Green Ronin book that revolves solely around Africa in a more modern period. As far as I know, it hasn't changed much between 500 BC and 1500 AD, so you might want to pick it up.

Numidia is the single worst faction in any Total War game, ever. Why the hell would you ever set a game there?
HURR DURR MEDIOCRE ARCHERS DECENT CAVALRY HORRIBLE INFANTRY, LIVE WITHIN PISSING DISTANCE FROM EGYPT AND CARTHAGE.

>>13787952
The Iriquois from Empire called, you're a faggot.

How much do your players enjoyed being killed by Romans? Because that's pretty much what this campaign is shaping up to be if they don't have bitchin' mounts and no sense of shame.

>>13787986
Didn't the Romans get destroyed by horse archers every time they fought them? This sounds more like a Roman murdefest.

>>13788009
Just the one time in Parthia, which they later stormed with someone who wasn't an ass-grabbing moron, and unsurprisingly broke the fledgling country's legs.
Besides which, this is Numidia, I don't even know if they had a horse archery tradition. I doubt it, given that they didn't even have saddles to help them control the horses.

>>13788009
Horse Javelineers is what we are looking at here. The romans got the bows. And Slings, which were apparently really fucking good against the lightly armed numidians.

>>13788060
Oh, I see where I went wrong, I thought Numidia was in Asia Minor. I kind of feel like a jackass now.

>>13788065
Wow. I must reverse my earlier opinion, evade the Romans. Evade the Romans at all cost. All I do know about them is that their cavalry are mediocre, which is a good thing, because that means they can't chase you.

>Implying that there is any outcome here that doesn't involve everyone dying

If this is set in later roman history it would be even worse, as once they got a grip on the east they started using eastern/syrian composite bow wielding archers everywhere dry enough for them to work.

Like Numidia, for example.

>>13784976
Funny thing--bronze is actually HARDER than iron. It's just less brittle. People switched to iron because it was easier to find, not because it was better on its own (of course then steel--which the Romans had--came along and then the game changed).

On the other hand, the Romans almost never ventured into the desert due to supply problems, nothing of worth being there, and the fact that numidians could hid anywhere and then appear, ambush, and then run away, so any deep desert fight was a slow bloody grind for the romans with little risk for the numidians. Additionally the Roman troops cannot be everywhere and are slower than horsemen (though not as slow as you may think, they marched fast) and so raiding lightly defended settlements is very possible and happened often.

Just pray they dont hire other numidians, as they often did.

>>13788149
Alternatively, BE those other Numidians. This guy's talking about his players being a bunch of teamkilling fucktards anyway, might as well get on the winning side.

>>13788133
Well, that's my fun fact for the day. Bronze was actually a good weapon material? Dayum.

How the hell is this still here? I am pleasantly surprised.

>>13788191
/tg/ is a magical place. Question, do you play Riddle of Steel regularly?

>>13788181
Fairly good, though because of its ductility it's vulnerable to bending. It also doesn't hold a dramatically sharper edge than iron (if iron was THAT much poorer people probably wouldn't have bothered with iron weapons at all). Still, it was quite effective.

>>13788181
Yeah, me too. I wouldn't have guessed that, but I suppose there was a reason it stayed in use so long after the iron age had begun.

>>13788214
Not for about six months, but yeah, it's a good game.

>>13788229
Great, quick question then, is the whole groin attack thing true? Where RoS breaks if you just repeatedly stab to the groin?

>>13788241
Sort of? In the beginning it does, before everyone really understands the game. It's the zone with the most severe damage chart at lower damage levels. However, once people start being clever with how they fought, (or if they've got any kind of large shield) it becomes much less of a surefire deal, as after the first time they'll probably start favoring defense there.

If you can hit there, though, yes it's probably the best place to hit. Which does fit, after all the Romans suggested that the most optimal place to stab an enemy in battle was the lower stomach or the groin, and they'd be the ones to know. Can't always go for the head after all.

>>13788273
That's all I needed to hear. My group wants to play it, but I don't want it to turn into a cockpunching contest.

>>13788306
Oh no, it's a great game. You've just got to ease into it to learn the combat system. I find the best way to do this is to hold a bunch of isolated combats, as though that were a game in and of itself.

My group and I used to use Riddle of Steel as a betting sport. We still would, except someone figured out that partisan/fullplate was nearly undefeatable.

>>13788273
Don't think the groin thing will be a problem since

>Romans
>Large shields make it less effective
>Romans

>>13788393
There's actually a famous story, though for the life of me I cannot find it, of a battle in the Roman civil war in which one commander urged his men to stab or the face when fighting other Romans, because their regular tactics wouldn't work. The other commander failed to mention this to his men, who simply went about it the regular way, and got rolled by an enemy that they outnumbered significantly.

When in Rome, go for the face.

>>13788350
Wait, partisan and fullplate? Partisans aren't that great as far as I can tell.

>>13788454
It's an Extremely Long weapon with 7 DTN. The attack number isn't too great, but when you look at the advantages of its reach, it works out.
The only thing we've found that seriously challenges it is Buckler/Pallasch with no armor. And that's a risky setup if I've ever seen one.

>>13788431
That was Ceaser vs Pompey. Pompey had a lot better cavalry than Ceaser did, so he was getting the upper hand, but then Ceaser had the bright idea of changing Roman infantry tactics from throwing spears at charging cavalry and engaging with short swords to instead brace the spears ad point them at the riders' faces.

>>13788522
Just ran it. Yeah, I see what you mean. The Partisan subracts like 8 dice from an enemy with medium range. That's outrageous.
Granted, Pallasch and Buckler (I'd take Pallasch and small shield, personally) is really fucking good, once you get over dying to a stiff wind... And if you hit once, even if you don't accomplish anything, suddenly he's the one fighting at -8.

>>13788572
Ahh, that's what it was. My mistake, thank you, you gentleman scholar you.

>>13788601
The key is to let the man's overconfidence kill him. A man with a partisan WILL think himself to be God's gift to single combat. What he will forget, of course, is that his CP is lower than yours, and the ATN of the Partisan is the same as the DTN of bobbing and weaving. A little known clause is that if you succeed such a dodge, you appear at your own weapon's range. This is such an absolute death sentence for pretty much every long polearm that it borders on game-breaking.

I like the Numidians as an idea but up until the arrival of the Murabitun they were really given the short end of the stick. I think the only people on an equal level of military impoverishment were the filthy Irish. :( My area of expertise is much more the Medieval Moors, which aside of dressing in more conservative, full-covering garb (earlier wearing just short tunics or even loincloths) had pretty much the same equipment as the Berbers of antiquity but had a rather large transition of fighting style. You still had the javelin skirmishing, with the "Jinetes" of Spain a translation of "Zinete" a corruption of "Zanata", the berber (and as far as I can tell, mainly pastoral and mounted) confederacy who often showed up as mercenaries in Spain. But infantry were not flighty and seemed to draw from earlier, Rashidun and Umayyad era Islamic strategies. Will type them up in the next post

>>13788711
STEP BACK PEOPLE. This man is an expert!

"Early Murabitun armies largely consisted of infantry, some camel riding mounted infantry, and a very small number of horsemen'. The Foot reportedly fought in ordered ranks, with the first carrying long spears or pikes with those behind armed wthh javelins of an adequate supply or slings or bows." (It's important to note that infantry predominance isn't always the case. He mentions how a rival to the Murabitun could field 12,000 horsemen before they got smashed by the Murabitun. Basically the mountainous rif/altas regions would be more infantry rich, the plains more horse rich).

Al-Bakri (1048-1049) writes of the first victory of a Murabitun preacher: "In all their expeditions they put in the front rank a man with a flag. As long as the flag remained upright they remain unshakeable. If it falls, then they all sit on the ground where they remain as immobile as mountains" - I kinda doubt they'd surrender. I imagine it's more if the guy with the flag dies they stand still, since the author goes on to mention the early Murabit didn't even pursue a defeated foe.

The Muwahhidun continued the practice of a defensive phalanx, with cavalry supporting from the wings. A poem wrote:
"We formed a square in the plain. On all four sides we stationed a row of men who held long spears in their hand. Behind them stood men holding shields and javelins in a second line, and at the back of them were men armed with 'nose bags' filled with stones. At the far back were archers. The cavalry were in the middle of the square. Whenever the Murabitun cavalry charged, they only met the long pointed spears, javelins, stones, and loosed arrows. When they died in the charge or turned to flee, the cavalry of the Muwahhidun went out of our lanes and fell upon them. If they charged again, the Muwahhidun cavalry returned to the square and the enemy fell upon the forest of spears."

More in a next post

>>13788782

Those are from David Nicolle. I know some people contend a sacrosact respect for Osprey (this wasn't quite Osprey, more affiliated) but I'm referencing this book because it's on hand and it's a neat and tidy description that I've generally found re-affirmed when I read a myriad of other sources.

Technologically nothing would stop an ancient berber army from doing this. The equipment was still poor, mail was really only the domain of the aristocratic cavalry and most men on foot and horse trusted in the protection of a leather shield. The more famous was the Murabitun's lamt, a very large and very strong all leather shield with near mythical protectiveness, used by all sorts of Sub-Saharan/Saharans. I don't know if the Muwahhidun used it, but I know the round daraqa (All leather shield) was also in use. Later on, into the 13th and 14th and 15th centuries you get the Adarga, first in a heart shaped and then in a buttocks-shaped.

The problem is more the cultural and ideological motivation to fight so defensively, to literally behave like a Saxon shield wall or a Macedonian Phalanx without the luxury of a 20 foot sarissa or any sort of body armor. While the religious motivations behind the Muwahhidun and Murabitun movements played a huge part in making a berber hillman willing to fight with such stoicness, there's also the fact that it was inspired or transmuted by the Muslims - the Andalusians fight the same way.

More next.

But it's possible to see this in a fictional setting inspired by antiquity. Instead of the Arabs, what if it was the Hellenes who so thoroughly colonized/converted the (not) Maghreb? Think about how much the Greeks held the phalanx (not macedonian one) in an almost religious light because it was their way of making a fight "fair", of trying to emulate the old Illiadic warfare in an artifical, 'state vs state, no skirmishing plains only final destination" manner (funnily enough, cavalrymen and peltasts and archers having more claim to Illiadic traditions than a Hoplite).

So one could replace the Arabs and Islam with "Not Greeks" and "Not Illiad". Culture adopts the imperialist's view of life, their myths and religions that espouse a proud, direct, not flighty way of fighting". This is a more modern rendition of a lamt, but authors have various interpretations of it - all favoring a very large, body-covering look.

Or a "Not persians" conquered them long ago and instilled such a defensive posture (since that murabitun way of fighting is pretty much the same as the ancient Persian Sparabara & archers/javelineers & cavalry).

Though I like the idea of a religious element (in this case more Hellenistic/Illiadic). You could have an internal as well as external villain of an ambitious chieftain who stylizes himself some long lost descendant of a great Hero or God of Old, who has trained his men to fight in this irresistible, vicious phalanx that just eats up and spits out all the paltry, flighty tribes before it. This churning combine is swallowing up tribes and petty kingdoms at an alarming rate, which has brought on the imperialistic predations of these Not-Romans, with the players the aforementioned "Black Sheep Flock" caught in the middle of it.

>>13788782
What a bizarre way of fighting. The flag bit, I mean. It sounds very ritual, and I'm not sure I understand it. When you're done, can you point me in the way of the source material, so that I can educate myself further?
Thanks, and sorry for interrupting.

>>13788857
My mind is blown.

Let me see if I understand what you're saying though, because I am not a clever man. The situation you're proposing is one in which our hypothetical desert dwellers, instead of fighting in a swift, mobile fashion, instead develop a way of war that is more Greek, focused on defense and stalwart formations?

And that this Not-Numidian force would (and I see no reason why you'd be wrong) drive before it all those who cling to the older, skirmish based ways of war. And that the PCs should, theoretically, be from the latter, now caught between Rome's immovable crushing legions, and DesertGreek immovable crushing religious phalangites?

Snap. Snap I say. I say Snap. Three times I have said Snap. Now four.

>>13788860

Not an interruption, and no problem. I'm pretty much done. The references I took was from David Nicolle's book "Crusader Warfare Volume II". Vol. I covers the European Medieval armies, Volume II is mainly Islamic with a touch on Mongols. It gives a very good, broad summary of organization, recruitment, equipment, payment/administration, fortifications, strategies/tactics and navies of the Islamic world from the Maghreb/Al-Andalus to Iran, roughly from the 11th century to 13th-14th.

Another reason to go for a "Ancient to Medieval" depiction of the berbers is the romantic and exciting nature of the Murabituns as 'veiled ones', practicing that Tuareg-embodied belief that has men veiling themselves upon puberty while women are unveiled. This being for various reasons including the mouth being a 'private part' (Dunno why women don't veil, then), and not wanting to show your enemy your face or to deflect the evil eye or some shit. But it'd fucking terrify anyone who saw it and knew the Murabitun's reputation, and apparently the Murabitun kings or caliphs had to decree that ONLY murabitun could wear it, since silly Andalusians and blacks were trying to emulate the cool kids.

http://www.amazon.com/Crusader-Warfare-II-Struggle-Crusades/dp/1847251463 - that's it hard covered, but I imagine you can find it soft covered, used, or be able to borrow it as I did.

The Hundred Years War for Morocco: Gunpowder and the Military Revolution in the Early Modern Muslim World - If you can find this, it's a great book although it's based on the 15th-16th century. You get more of an impression of the gunpowder era for the Moroccans, but it's still really interesting and covers an otherwise unmentioned part of history. The best it'll do is illustrate what other authors touch on about the rise of cavalry following the fall of the Muwahhiduns, since cavalry were the principal part of the army at this point.

I'll try and remember more resources to suggest.

>>13788916
>>The situation you're proposing is one in which our hypothetical desert dwellers, instead of fighting in a swift, mobile fashion, instead develop a way of war that is more Greek, focused on defense and stalwart formations?

You've got it. They would trust in long spears and pikes, and principally tall leather shields of multiple layers of animal hide (Usually gazelle, but Rhino hide or elephant hide could be used in shields) glued together for protection. It could be a static rock for the enemy to crash upon like a wave, or it could be a crashing wave like the Hoplite phalanx, or something in between like a Saxon shield wall.

The following are Wargaming booklets on armies. What I like about them is you get both a description of the fighting style/organization if applicable, examples of armies, and some great B&W depictions of soldiers with commentary about their equipment or dress. The earlier ones before Macedonian/Punic wars are kinda crappy art wise, but everything from there is awesome. And don't let the title fool you. Macedonian/Punic Wars has depictions for India, Berbers, Sarmatians, Celts, Oscan Italics, ect.

Armies of Ancient Middle East: http://www.sendspace.com/file/w5xgff
Armies & Enemies of Ancient Egypt & Assyria: http://www.sendspace.com/file/id208y
Macedonia & Punic Wars: http://www.sendspace.com/file/zd0waw
Armies & Enemies of Imperial Rome: http://www.sendspace.com/file/jrg38k
Dark Ages: http://www.sendspace.com/file/aljhgv
Feudal Europe & Maghreb & Andalusia: http://www.sendspace.com/file/0j7vkf
This'll have the stuff on the Moors I described.

>>13788821
>>13788782
This is insanely cool. Ritual warfare usually is.

>>13788919

I recall an anecdote I read a long time ago about one of the few recorded Viking raids on Andalusia. The raiders found themselves in a nice looting frenzy until the arrival of the 'blaumenn,' which I assume to be referring to 'blue men' AKA that blue veil you see on those Tuareg mercs.

At which point the fucking vikings just went 'fuck this shit!' and decided to go fuck up Italy instead.

>>13788968
You've just made my week. You know, it was sort of looking iffy around thursday, but no, this is incredible. Eight hours after the thread is made, four hours after I give up on it producing anything neutral, you deliver unto me not only what I asked for, but what I wanted and hadn't bothered asking for, and what I needed, but hadn't realized it yet.

I cannot thank you enough. You are a gentleman, you are a scholar, and you are a credit to the board.

>>13789021
>Neutral
Wait, what? Useful. Sorry.

>>13788916
>>desert dwellers, instead of fighting in a swift, mobile fashion, instead develop a way of war that is more Greek, focused on defense and stalwart formations?

Looking back on what I've learned on desert combat, swift and mobile is really a stereotype typical of light cavalry and doesn't seem to apply to, say, the armies of the Arab conquests.

There they fought in solid defensive formations with swords, shields and spears, waiting for the enemy charge rather than rushing or maneuvaring in light formations.

They fought much like the Greeks and Romans where it was the job of the cavalry to apply the swift moving hammer to the infantry anvil. There was a tribe in the southern Caspian region that fought almost exactly like a Roman legion.

The only armor I know of as being reasonably popualr for the Maghreb is quilted stuff, found most frequently in depictions of Muslim Sicily and Andalusia where it's reasonable to assume they are depicting Maghrebi troops (given their presence in either). Although given this is a 'fantasy' or at least alt-history setting I think you can be more creative with it, too. I liked the unique, organic-driven styles of Bronze Age armor and I think given the presence of leather amongst these Not-Berbers they could fashion some original styles of animal-material armor, using both the usual hide of gazelle and buffalo/cows as well as shit like crocodiles, giant snakes or dragons, rhinos, elephants, and then mythical/legendary versions thereof if you're a higher fantasy setting. Like a scale cuirass that's of croc scale, or a buff coat of elephant hide.

Pretty sure they never used that stuff, though. All I've ever gotten is irritatingly vague comments of "felt and/or leather" armor being used, the latter often attributed to the Hafsid successors of the Muwahhiduns in the 13th century onward but no telling if that's leather lamellar or scale or buff coats or what.

>>13789021
>>Neutral
>>my face

I appreciate it. I'd owe you as much thanks as I'm always one who wishes fantasy and gaming be more creative and outgoing in its atmospheres and settings. You're certainly one championing such a great approach.

>>13788968
To give my 2 cents, I suggest that the previous horse javelin warfare should remain dominant among some groups, who serve the (presumably) better organized phalanx warrior's in a vassal/mercenary tribe relationship, as I see this formation having similar troubles that the Romans had with the light numidian raider cavalry otherwise. Plus that would allow for the nomadic characters, who would be forced between serving the invading romans, the dominant phalanxers (who likely were/are a foe of the player's tribe) and remaining poor and independent.

The biggest problem I see here is that leather armored/shield wielding phalanx fighters would get creamed by the Romans much as the heavier equipped greeks were, and in ways the more agile nomads could avoid. This is not an army that can skirmish and maneuver well.

>>13789066
This is all quite an illuminating experience for me.

>>13789068
I'm just trying to make something fun and new. And with this material, I've got a better shot than I had before.

>>13789110
>>13789090
My grasp of Greece's defeat at the hands of the Romans is a bit vague, but I do remember that battle everyone talks about where they creamed the Macadonians by breaking up the formations and then ripping them to pieces up close.

I guess it'd only be easier if everyone were more lightly armored. Thus, cavalry power would be essential to keeping more mobile infantry from outflanking and exploiting the ponderous formations. If there's a preexisting tradition of cavalry excellence to be found amongst the remaining tribes, they might see a lot of employment as mercenaries.
Am I reading you guys right here?

>>13789117

Also, going back to early Islamic history, right before actual fighting began between two opposing armies there could be a series of called duels between elected champions, kinda like the one in the beginning of 'Troy.'

And Arab aristocracy was pretty knight-like where they have stories of duels that began with charging with lances and usually ended with sword fights dismounted.

For honor and even for love.

>>13789066

That's exactly it. And you're referring to the Daylami (or Gilani or Mazandaranis, how delightful antiquity is for so many dang names for people). Without referencing material directly, they fought with spears that could double as javelins, brightly painted shields they put a lot of pride in, seemed to favor axes too. It sounds like they first emerged as valuable troops back in the Achaemenid days under those Takabara light infantry, but it was into the Sassanid Era that they started to shine as heavy infantry. The later roman author who talked about Persian "Gladiators" who could match a legionary pound for pound were most certainly Daylami. At this point they seem to 'generally' or at least the more famous ones fight with large shield, axe or sidearm (sword/mace) and a 'zhupin', a spear that was also a javelin so we could presume some sort of heavy motherfucker.

South of the Caspian was actually one of the few areas where the Muslim invasions were successfully turned away and conquest arrived only by diplomatic agreements. They served as highly prized and valuable infantry mercenaries, often able to work in conjunction with the ascendant Slave-warrior cavalry. Not to mention they gave birth to the Buyid dynasty which for a brief time around the start of the 11th century, made it look like Sunni Islam was going to disappear forever. This map isn't perhaps 100% perfect, but it gives you a good idea of how if not for the arrival of the Oghuzz Turks who championed themselves as Sunni saviors to legitimize themselves, the Islamic world would probably be mostly Shia.

>>13789147
Both posts are me actually, but yeah, some cavalry tradition would have to remain. Possibly the phalanx tribes would conquer a large area, and then allow smaller groups of nomads to live there in return for service or something. You could end up with a 'civilized' perspective and a nomadic one, both fighting for or against the invaders, as well as each other.

And if long pikes were introduced by the Greeks(or better yet the idea of the companion cavalry), then you may just also end up with groups of light lancers.

>>13789166
Fuck yeah, Daylamites.

I think everyone missed the point.

WHO IS JOHN GAULT?

>>13789166
This kind of discussion gives me a warm glow of contentment, and I thank the OP for that.

>>13789166
>Sucks to be Sunni
This is only the first hilarious thing about this picture. What's up with the dragons?

>>13789183

>>13789183
Every time.

>>13789188
Hey, my part in all this isn't that big. Bill Nye the History Guy over there is delivering an educational cornucopia for us. I'm just sort of... Sailing the current.

>>13789213

Who do you think lives there? People? NO Saddiq, No! I heard from Ayyub, who heard from his uncle Abu Sibayas, who has the reputable word of Sayf al-din Shumla ibn Al-Husayn ibn Al-Husayn that a merchant by the name of Muzaffar ibn Ardashir Al-muqtafi ibn Mardanish that those of the windswept hinterlands at the edge of the blue-black sea, whose realm is of rolling emerald hills (Crafted by God, Praise be to him!) are inhabited by a race of scaled creatures, frequent to the cursed inebriated intoxicants.

Their womenfolk are also apparently well endowed and exceptional at the art of polishing spears.

But yeah I just saw the gigantic map, had to re-shrink it to make it fit 4chan's file limit size and thought "Where be dragons"?

>>13789213
Never heard of the old "here be dragons" refrain they used to put on maps in unknown lands?

>>13789268
>>13789270
I am at a loss for a reaction image that simultaneously expresses my mirth and my embarrassment.

In place of this hypothetical reaction image, I inform you that I am both embarrassed, and mirthful.

And yeah I was flipping through the chronciles of Ibn Al-Athir (it's a dry read, but it's great for getting political facts of the 12th century crusades period) for names in that silly imitation of the Arabic emphasis on legitimacy by the link of who said what. I actually found a dude with "ibn Al-Husayn ibn Al-Husayn". That's silly. My brother asked how I keep track of all these Arabic names when he read my paper on Hashemite/Al-Saud competition for the Hijaz. I pretty much just compartmentalize them and try to contextualize it. It's kind of like all the damn Williams and Roberts and Georges of Europe. I mean Nur Al-Din Zangi is ruler of Syria and Jazira in the 12th century. One of his vassals dies. Who succeeds him? Nur Al-Din Muhammad. :|

>>13789170

I agree with you. I've always been a fan of..I don't know how to phrase it, but an Imperialism with regional fighting styles adopted. I suppose I'd call it the "Imperialism AOR" vs "Imperialism Reform". The latter is what the Colonials mostly did, they'd train the locals to fight like Europeans while maintaining smaller irregular corps of locals fighting in their way. I think that Imperialism AOR has been the dominant style through the ages, however, with only states organized and capable enough to institute a common systemic military able to do the "Reform" system. The Romans are probably the closest and you can see how they buckled under that weight and the Foederati system grew rather than waned and while Germans were Romanified in dress or fighting style as time went on, that Roman fighting style was essentially Germanified.

It's easy to conclude that the Chieftain's own confederacy would fight in this organized way, but those he conquered who are now vassals would constitute lighter auxiliaries. Or only the tribes of the hinterland highlands fight as organized infantry, while the plainsmen are pastoralists.

It is a rare day indeed that I'm as afraid of the Africans as I am of the Romans in a setting. Well played, /tg/.

>>13789368
Nyum Nyum, motherfucker.

>>13789368

African/Desert Romans would be totally bitchin' bro.

>>13789342
Ahh, the dangers of relying on mercenaries in place of a standing army. Still, when it worked, it worked, eh?

>>13789421

>>13789151

There's a lot of rich and wonderful atmosphere and aesthetics to the Pre and early Post Islamic Arab aristocracy, as you'd expect to befit a semi-pastoral people with a rich oral tradition in lieu of literature or other artwork. Reading a book about the early Islamic period was filled to the brim with really exciting and nuanced characters. I sadly can't find it in my dorm room right now, but anyone interested in that period could check it out: The Heirs of Muhammad: Islam's First Century and the Origins of the Sunni-Shia Split

The only example I really remember perfectly was this dashing Arab chevalier who roundly beats a rival tribe in a bloodbath of a battle, and then deflowers their princess on those bloodied sands.

>>13789151
>>13789434
Didn't the original idea of Chivalry have roots in the Islamic world? I mean that's pretty bada-
>Arab chevalier who roundly beats a rival tribe in a bloodbath of a battle, and then deflowers their princess on those bloodied sands.
WOW.

>>13789425

Oh definitely. I don't know enough about the Romans to really make any definitive statements, but I mean Byzantine strategy 101 was pretty much the Foederati. I'm not really sure it was that which failed the Romans rather than something else.

The stormfronter type might say it was multiculturalism that did them, but I think the Roman form of Multiculturalism was the ideal - "I don't give a fuck what you are, but either you pay taxes and keep to yourselves, or you participate fully in -OUR- culture and anything cool and useful you can bring is welcome". One author I read talking about the Roman/Christian culture up to around the arrival of Islam made a case that what really pissed Roman Pagans with Christian converts was their 'treason' from Greco-Roman culture and society. That you participated and then turned away from it. I'm not describing it right but it was rather convincing.

>>13789434

I fucking loved the desert aesthetic in Lodoss. King Kashuwe was fucking pimp in his robes and turban during that one ball in the OVA. All the bitches (and Parn of course) were slobbering all over his curved dagger.

>>13789461
>>13789434

I ran a game a while back where the elves were basically Medieval Arabs/Persians - classy yet snooty with a spiritual focus on the bow (for common elves) and dueling weapons for the nobility. And their advanced medicine and sciences were little different from the usual Elven magic they use to lord over everyone else.

>>13789455

It'll depend who you ask and what they've read. The wishy washy neutral approach would be that it was both an indigenous invention and brought from abroad. But honestly? I'm more inclined to its foreign invention. I'm not an expert of linguistic epics in that period or any and what I've read was passing remarks rather than actual, heavy investigations.

The arguments I heard was that the Troubadour and his concepts of courtly love in a European context originated in Southern France and radiated from there, and that it had been transferred to Provencal/Occitan from Al-Andalus who had inherited it from the Arabs.

Another passing remark I read was summarizing the Persian/Turkish/Arabic literature of the Crusades. Turkish was of "Love and warmuch in common with French Chasons de Geste, whereas Persian stories tended to focus on a lost imperial past, a clash of titanic heroes and the splendours of courtly life (Shahnameh). Arabic epic traditions, reaching its final form in the crusades, showed deeper interest in human relations, the emotions of battle, and the tense relationship between men and women, with the leading character often being female. There were also elements of sex and violence: An enemy warrior-herione with a 'bottom like a narcissus flower' finally succumbsto the hero, and of course, falls in love with him."

And if you look at European Epics prior to Courtly love, do you really see any romantic element? The Illiad, Beowulf, Viking Epics, I'm not sure the early Arthurian stuff had it either. So I would say Courtly love 'originated' from the Islamic world but was refined and created into it's actual form by European design. After all, the whole idea of a platonic love of the knight for a lady he pines for is horribly Un-Islamic, when they saw chastity as..maybe not a sin but practically a sin.

>>13789461
Way I see it, Rome was multicultural throughout its history, and that's what made it strong. Their military-even the core, professional Legionaries-were a combination of military tactics and equipment from across Europe, Africa and Asia. Spanish shields, Gallic helmets, Greek formations, Italian javelins.
What did Rome in, and eventually the Byzantines, was that their economies made no damn sense at all, and they let their militaries grow slack and full of foreigners with no real loyalty to them. If you're going to be multicultural, you've got to layer over it with the common notion that everyone is still "Roman," even if they're also a Thracian or a Greek or whatever.

>>13789455
Hey, don't fuck with Muslims. They know their shit.

>>13789497
This is a good idea, and I'm mad that someone else has done it so visibly. Never watched the Records of the Lodoss War, but I've seen a lot of it thrown about. (Is it good, by the way?)

You know what'd be a cool idea that I might try sometime? This same notion of the Islamic people and their forebears being elves, and then going through more or less the motions of the crusades that happened historically.
And then, you've got Spain and Southern Italy as mostly being made up of half-elves, and the looming Imperial threat from the east also being Elvish.
A different look at Elves, for sure.

>>13789455

Oh hell that reminds me. I don't know about you guys but I like how HBO's rome gave us a living, breathing, realistic and not stale and artificial impression of the past. How they were us, just with different cultures and technology but had the same silliness and depravity and so on. If you want a chuckle or a mild glimpse of that, you should read Usama ibn Munqidh's book of contemplations. He was a chevalier of the crusades era, served Nur Al-Din and Saladin and such and while some of the tales are likely inflated, it's nice to see how similar they were to us. I'll post a few exerts in a moment.

>>13789559
Tossing it out there, a continuation of this... The Ottomon Empire (indeed, the Islamic world as a whole) started falling behind Europe-proper somewhere around the 1700s (I believe) in technology and development.
Whatever real world reason this might've had, if the Muzzies are all Elves, you could very easily explain it by having all of the ancient generations of learned and wise elves suddenly dying off all at once, leaving younger generations that were accustomed only to war, and lacked that creative and intellectual spark that had dwelt in their forefathers.

>>13789508
>>Arabic epic traditions, reaching its final form in the crusades, showed deeper interest in human relations, the emotions of battle, and the tense relationship between men and women, with the leading character often being female. There were also elements of sex and violence: An enemy warrior-herione with a 'bottom like a narcissus flower' finally succumbsto the hero, and of course, falls in love with him."

That sounds like what our stories are like. Neckbeards of the past... wait, they had actual beards.

Let's just make this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrak%C3%A7%C4%B1_Nasuh a patron saint of /tg/.

>>13789574
>HBO's Rome
Yeeeeeeessssssss.

>>13789579
>>Matrakci Nasuh
>>Speak 5 languages
>>Swordmaster
>>Sharpshooter
>>Master bladesmith
>>Sell books on math, martial arts and history to sultan
>>Paint miniatures

Real life PC, that one.

>>13789580
It was a damn good show. By the way, your boy Larry told me to talk to you about Caliburn. I don't want to break the thread up at all, so can you give me a really quick answer to this? What the hell is Kyton Von Richtofen's deal? I know he's the Autarch of Chiron, but he'd have to be like 200 years old, and the Chirons are supposed to hate cybernetics and stuff. How's he still alive?

>>13789574

He's also the guy who gives us that famous story of the Muslim doctor treating a knight and a woman, and the Frankish doctor decides that cutting the knight's leg off (he dies) and the woman's skull open (she dies) is better. There aren't too many humerous sections but it does give a nice view into daily life and war amongst the Crusades.

Franks possess nothing in the way of regard for honor or propriety..."There was a house belonging to a frankish man who sold wine for the merchants...so one day, he came back home and discovered a man in bed with his wife. The frank said to the man "What business brings you here to my wife?"
>>I got tired, so I came in to rest
"But how did you get into my bed?
>>I found a bed that was all made up, so I went to sleep in it
"While my wife was sleeping there with you?!?!"
>>Well, it's her bed. Who am I to keep her out of it?
"By the truth of my religion, if you do this again, we'll have an argument, you and I!"

"I have seen my uncle, Sultan (may god have mercy upon him), who was one of the most courageous members of his household, having taken famous strands in battle and truck renowned spear thrusts, suddenly, upon seeing a mouse, change the expression on his face, become overcome by shudders at the mere sight of it, and take himself away from the place where he saw it."

"Among his attendants was a courageous fellow whose name was Sunduq, known for his bravery and audacity. He was so afraid of snakes that he would practically lose his mind. My father said to him as he was standing before my uncle, "Sunduq, you're a good man, known for your bravery. Aren't you ashasmed to be so afraid of snakes?"

>>My lord, what's so suprising about that? In homs there is a brave man, a hero's hero, who is scared to death of mice.
>>Sultan, his Uncle, lives in Homs. His reply:

"MAY GOD ABOMINATE YOU, YOU DIRTY SO AND SO!"

>>Sunduq's face

Then there's a long ass one of "Lu'lu", a brave mamluk who is willing when he and Usama think they're about to be ambushed by a party of Franks goes out alone and challenges them by himself before learning they are friends.

Ending with "Yet if he should see a snake in his hosue, he would run out fleeting, saying to his wife "The snake's all yours!" and she would have to get up and kill it.

>>13789579
Long may he be revered. What a winner.

>>13789612
I haven't heard from Larry in a week and a half, how's he doing?

Anyway, Richtofen is an Angeleater. Did he tell you about those? Got exposed to the Black, turned into one of the immortal psychic folks who talk to God, etc etc. He's supposed to be something of a mystery.
Also, incidentally, people from Chiron are called Chironites. Not that it matters much.

>>13789559

The original OAV is great. Most dislike Chronicles of the Heroic Knight (I am one of them), and the reception to the Crystalis thing with Ashram and Pirotess is mixed.

You're safe to go with the OAV, it's really a D&D adventure with no anime trappings (The original opening song and I think ending song are principally Italian, the closest thing to 'chibi' is deedlit getting furious at Parn for not wanting to dance compared to a chibi mini episode after every episode of Chronicles).

>>13789654
I'll check it out. I'm out of stuff to watch anyway, and I'll need a break in between reading all them books linked to me above.

>>13789654

Also Rune Soldier Louie is in the same setting (different continent) as Lodoss, but it's as I understand it far and away from Lodoss War, which is practically epic literature in drawn form (I'm an unabashed fanboy of it). RSL being humor and cheesecake and such, but I hear it's not too bad.

I find it interesting that the crusaders were known as "Franks." France was of course a country that participated in many crusades, and it's name derived from the term "Frank," but the crusades were a few hundred years since the time of the Franks.

I would think that another word for the crusaders would have been used. Did the Arabs call them Franks, and if so, did this have anything to do with the battle of poitiers?

>>13789650
Don't tell him I told you, but I think Larry's still pissed at Rome over the space combat argument. I wasn't there for it, but it was mentioned. Deleted a whole thread over it, which is a damn shame because it was pretty cool. Anyway thanks, that clears that up. Didn't know the Angels could be so humanoid though, don't they start atrophying?

And if there's any books you need to find, this site is worth a spin. I've found some gems in the rough that were hitherto elusive, but it's not 100%: http://ebookee.org/

A technique I'd recommend is if you're trying to find stuff on an elusive topic, such as the Berber stuff this started with, search for highly specific terms you come across. I can't think of any specific cases where it worked for me but it often does a lot. It's allowed me to develop a rugged, really rugged and limited understanding of Arabic military nomenclature by that kind of bloodhounding.

Here's an Osprey book on the campaign of the 1st Crusade: http://www.sendspace.com/file/4dx6cb

>>13789615

It should be noted that the same story is followed by an account of a GOOD Frankish doctor that actually cures people. Usamah's book is a collection of anecdotal short stories meant to moralize and teach lessons to anyone who wishes to style himself a 'gentleman' of his age.

Usamah also tells stories like the one time he was about to get lynched by a mob of Christians (a woman in the crowd kept accusing him of being the warrior that killed her son in some battle) until he gets saved by his friend, a Christian knight who lived like a local Syrian and ate local Syrian food. Another story is about the time he visited his Templar friends in Jerusalem who let him pray in the Al Aqsa mosque, and he was constantly interrupted by a knight who was 'fresh-off-the-boat.' Another time he was offered by a friend the chance to have his son go to Europe and train as a squire there, and so on.

A cool image you might try to describe, OP, is the tent palace. I read this in a traveller's account some time ago where there was a rich pilgrim on the road to Mecca, and he basically constructed a mobile palace of tent poles and white sheets. Walls of linen surrounding a complex and huge central tent - it can certainly add some flavor I think.

>>13789662
I didn't know it was held in such high regard. I haven't had a television in like ten years, so I don't really keep up with anything nowadays, but this sounds worth it.

>>13789676
Always those two are arguing over stupid things, that's not even their department.

>>13789684
That's a character from Otoyomegatari. She's Central Asian but no less delicious for it.

>>13789674
It's basically Faranj all around - the truth is the idea of the crusading 'Frank' was alive and well far after the end of the last official crusade, and it just took on a life of its own that came to refer to all Europeans - even Italian merchants - much like the phrase Saracen.

>>13789674

I just read in one book (one of the more 'for educated laypersons' rather than hardcore historians) that they knew there were many ethnicities of the Europeans (British, French, German, I suppose Italian and Spanish) but thought that there was only one language, "Frankish".

You saw something similar with "Saracen" where it's an all inclusive term the Europeans used when they knew there were many races therein. The Gestae Francorum, written by a 1st crusader, writes:

>>Indeed, Curbara likewise collected countless pagan folk, Turks, Arabs, Saracens, Publicani, Azimites, Kurds, Persians, Agulani and countless other peoples. The Agulani were three thousand in number and feared neither lances, arrows, nor any kind of arms, because they and all their horses were fitted with iron all around, and they refused to carry any arms except swords into battle. All of these came to the siege of Antioch to disperse the gathering of Franks.

Cubara being the "Sultan of Persia" (Great Seljuks probably). Agulani are tricky, I once thought they were a race from Azerbaijan but it sounds like they might be Senior Ghulams. But then why would Senior Ghulams 'only wield swords' when they were always about static horse archery followed by melee?

Anyhoo, I'm not sure why Frank took off and others didn't. Could be because the Roman Greeks referred to europeans as some sort of "Frankish" deriviatve? Same way Saracen was some Latin or Greek term for the easterners?

>>13789676
Sorry, I'm stupid, the Angeleaters usually do decay until they need to be locked in the suits, but some of them don't. Why? Call Nero Wolfe and ask him.
>The joke being that it is a mystery.

>>13789691

Thanks for mentioning that, I forgot to bring up the really enlightening Templar one where it's the Templars that 'save' him from the harassment of the newly arrived Franks. It's rather revealing when most of the time we get depictions of Templars as either God's chosen ones to slay the heathens, "lol Dan brown stuff", or "evil murderous conservatives that kill innocents".

A related note is how "Renegades" to their faith (christian or Muslim) weren't an uncommon occurrence but are almost always skimmed over by their respective religious historians.

And yeah, I saw it in my saved folders and went "lol, african? She looks like a Turkish Anatolian dancing girl."

>>13789696
The OVA is the best of the available Lodoss material.

However, the TV series while being far worse gets one of the best OP's ever. It's amazing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve5rvM-YBac

And a new idea to turn on the head of the Greek/Persian elves would be making humans the 'civilized' ones, and Elves the vigorous, rampaging, expanding Normans and Turks.

>>Horse archer Elven Muslims

This is so archived it isn't even funny.

>>13789727

I'm pretty sure I know who you are, or I have a hunch of sorts.

>>This'll only make sense if you are who I think you are.

If you want to read about the Byzantine-Arab wars over Syria, here's the Osprey book on that campaign: http://www.sendspace.com/file/uh95qa

>>13789737

An interesting choice - I've always thought of the Normans and Turks as total parallels in the societies they came from, the way they infiltrated politics in a region, and the way they came to dominate it with 'CALL THE WHOLE FAMILY OVER' tactics.

For that matter, the Vikings and the Arabs were also alike in the same way.

>>13789752

You are correct, sir. Do I know you?

>>13789727
Frankly, sir, damn. Case made.

>>13789776

Ahiga of Broken Crescent, now mainly Sahran of Mount and Blade since CA is crapping up modding.

>>13789778

Well shit, it's been forever man. How's the Mount and Blade modding scene?

Well folks, it's about time that I actually got to work. You people are the finest /tg/ites I have had the pleasure of bumping into for weeks, maybe months. I'll still be on, but I'll be refreshing like once every fifteen minutes. I have new reading material, I have a new show to watch, and I have a campaign to write. But first, I have 150 time sheets to check for token errors for which I can deduct peoples' pay.

Chao, gents.

>>13789783

It has, buddeh. Think you and Strelac are the only ones I still run into from there and him barely (he's a dad now, and he has this awesome M4 with an eotech sight it's nutz.). I know AD did a lot of skins for hegemony but he seems to have vanished after that.

Modding scene is pretty good, although I am not sure it's better than M&B was in the later periods (2007-2009). I've been working with 1257 AD which was the most comprehensive Singleplayer Total conversion although now Prophecy of Pendor ported and has a lot of momentum. 1257's team is now trying to do a Sub-Mod for Outremer circa 1167, so I've been helping out with rosters for that. Also working with Lynores' Peloponnesian War mod, mainly with Carthage and Oscan research.

Multiplayer is dominated by Mount and Musket (napoleonic, niche but it's fun), CRPG (Kind of an MMO meets M&B. I'm not too big on it, but I think the latest patches fixed some issues), and then native. However an up and coming mod is a Viking one which is pretty well put together.

There's this -CRAZY- Russian mod of the Crusades set to come out some time in the future. Gameplay we haven't gotten really any details for, but the artwork is amazing. Included a screencap of theirs. I think it'll be more stylistic than entirely historical but that's no biggie, looks beautiful.

Thought about that Maghreb/Andalus mod you tried, thought it'd have been neat to see that as a mod in M&B.

>>13789790

I'm bound to bounce out soon, found myself staying up for such an engaging and fun topic. Hopefully it'll be around later but if not, was fun! Thanks for the great conversations. Though I'll stick around a little bit longer.

>>13789815

Oops meant to link to Galt.

>>13789820
I think you did.

I did a little wikipedia'ing on the term "Frank," and what I found seemed to make sense. Basically:
-Franks were the first group to fill the power vacum left after the fall of the western Roman empire
-Many of the early crusaders were from the northern French nobility, where it was fashionable to trace descent from Charlemagne.

So with the cache the term frank still wielded, and their own conciets, the early crusaders cast themselves as Franks.

>>13789810

I'm gonna sign up for the Taleworld's forum then, I've neglected both M&B and TotalWar for a long time since I've been busy with first year of Med School, but I'm definitely amped. Mind if I try and help out with the Outremer mod?

>>13789829

Well that's what being sleepy'll do to ya!

>>13789836

Medschool! Now I feel inadequate. Miraj is an engineer, you're a doktor and I'm a Foreign Affairs major.

Wouldn't mind at all. Total War as I mentioned may not even let you mod Shogun 2, although I think that's all of us just fearmongering before the release but I do think the writing is on the wall. Taleworlds is still nice and cozy for mods (hell, the upcoming expansion is one).

Look for 1257 and the L'Outremer topic. Just mention you're a buddy of mine (sahran) and it'll be good to go. They pretty much have me doing the research free reign so there won't be too much chefs in the kitchen or anything.

>>13789835

Makes sense to me.

>>13788979
no, vikings refered to black people as blue people
africa was named blueland in norse culture

>>13789849

Looking forward to it then, see you there!

>>13789835

Also the term Faranj might have something to do with the Greek term φράγκοι, which sounds similar and means the same thing (West Europeans).

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangistan

Is Frankistan an awesome name or what?

>>13789852
But still, those Vikings. "Fuck this shit," indeed. Also, "Hey, these Roman guys will give us gold if we work for them - SCORE!" and who can forget, "Woah, I discovered American Indians. Meh."

>>13789852
>>13789876

Of course by Africa they most likely meant North Africa anyway.

Also, another anecdote I recall concerning Vikings and the Middle East. There were several raids up and down the Caspian - who do they call to deal with the Viking raiders?

Why, Daylami tribesmen.

>>13789876
yeah, vikings preffered to get out with as much loot and lives as possible. while they were warriors, they were not some kinda orc that lived only to fight

Aw fuck! I missed an epic thread!

>>13790158
You can still read it!