Giving this a bump for discussion.

My question is what was up with the tutelaries? are they demons? some sort of neutral warp spirit?

>>13666716

I think they were warp spirits, not really daemons but just entities from the warp that helped them channel. Perhaps a special sort of warp-race that were attuned to letting people channel?

Those things were pretty nasty though when shit hit the fan.

I had read the book specifically because I totally love the Magnus/TS story I had read from Lexicanum and they are generally my favourite Chaos Legion. The novel only cemented this.

I was pretty surprised at how bro-like Ahriman was, seriously. Most of the legion were cool rational guys but Ahriman was literally a bro. Also I loved how he had casually poked fun at his fellow captains about how he could clean his bolter with his own hands and the rest are just lazy bastards.

>>13667315
I suspect they were some form of Tzeentchian daemons because of that specifically.

--- FUCKING SPOILERS DOWN HERE, DON'T LOOK. I TOLD YOU DOG! ---

It was because of the tutelaries themselves going nasty that most of the captains got overloaded with power and got killed (like the Pyrae temple one, the tutelary ramped up his power until the ENTIRE FUCKING PYRAMID exploded into a giant fireball). It makes sense how they were always there too, cause according to Tzeentch's word he had Magnus and the TS by the balls the moment he was born/the chaos gods gave the Emperor knowledge on how to create the Primarchs.

>>13667399
Go away angelos, we know already.

>>13667399
DON'T HAMMER ME, BRO! I mean it's not my fault we're brothers n everyth*THWAK*

>>13665924
Guy, Ahriman was a Tzeench puppet. The God begun the mutations and shit, knowing Ahriman would do the rubric. No The TS are (in fluff) unstopable, obedient phantom-warriors who follows without doubt his sorcerers. Great for the Tzeentch. In fact, in previous codexes, when Magnus, furious because he dont wanted that, and thinking in punish Ahriman for "killing" almost everyone, Tzeentch make him stop saying something like "Dont hurt my puppets" or something like that. The eye, so Russ could blind Magnus, the demons, the powers, to lose, flying to the Eye of Terror, the mutations... always part of the plan of Tzeentch.

anyone have link to the thousand sons fanfic that was on tg a few months ago?

>>13667389
This. All the TS seemed so bro and rational. I never really cared for the Space Vikings and this only cemented that fact. I lent my book to my Space Viking playing friend after I told him how big of douches they were. After reading he was kinda like...yeah, they are. Emperor was biggest douche of all for never telling Magnus what the fuck was up instead of being "I'm omnipotent, I don't need to explain shit."

Also, during the entire trial scene I was pretty much raging. White Scars guy was pretty good though.

Only thing I didn't like were the Psychic bugs. Sure, they are a cool concept and all but they seemed unnecessary.

Here's some salt for those wounds; Space Wolves have some of the most powerful and cost-effective psykers in the game, while Thousand Sons and Ahriman are overpriced with inferior powers and no psychic defence whatsoever in-game.

Space Wolves also are allowed to do what they want, Logan's led his forces against many Imperial institutions which he deems harmful to SW interests and the Space Wolves chapter fleet has at least one salvaged battleship (Pride of Fenris, Emperor or Retribution depending on source) and a grand cruiser (Iron Wolf, formerly a traitor ship) they refused to give to the Navy in addition to their battlebarges and strike cruisers.

>>13667747
Samewhere, somepart of me wishes what happened to Clan Wolf in Battletech happened to the Space Wolves.

Too bad the story never advances in 40k.

>>13667778
what happened?

>>13667747
The Space Wolves had total right to strike out against all those institutions.

Space Marines answer only to the Emperor, the High Lords of Terra and Inquisitors; but only when they're placed under suspicion of heresy/treachery.

That means, that in any case, every military force, religious group or techpriest assembly must stay the fuck away from Space Marine held territory, except when invited in.

That's just asking to get shot. Like sneaking around in Area 51.

>>13667792

We're not talking about shooting missionaires, they help a convicted radical escape and attack his puritan pursuers, retreating only when he's safely away.

Space Wolves don't get their extra freedoms because they're loyal, dutiful Astartes like the Blood Angels or Ultramarines, the codex itself says that they get them because the Administratum knows that it's better to have them as allies than as open enemies. Same goes for Dark Angels.

>>13667791
They were destroyed and exiled.

>>13667842
harsh, but such is life

The funny thing, having read bout 1k Sons and Prospero Burns, is 1k Sons is their side of the story. Which means the punishments and battles will be far worse than they were in reality because Magnus is the proverbial child being punished for what he considers nothing. In Prospero Burns, Russ gives Magnus time and warning to evacuate his people and come quietly so he wouldn't have to kill everyone.

>>13667829
Also, don't forget that the Space Wolves and all original Legion Chapters are OLDER than the Church, OLDER than the Codex Astartes and OLDER than the Inquisition.

Hell, they're older than the Imperium.

They have been fighting for the Emperor before the Adeptus Mechanicus was under the control of the Emperor.

Do remember that, when you talk about Space Marine chapters prancing about like cunts. They have their reasons to do that. Doesn't change the fact that they act like cunts, but they are cunts that kill the enemy... mostly.

>>13667862

Which in itself is a retcon. In the original Index Astartes article, it was Russ who convinced the Emperor to send the Space Wolves against the Thousand Sons, Magnus' message did not break the Webway or the Golden Throne and was merely violating the ban on sorcery, and Russ himself was convinced that the entire world of Prospero was a nest of heresy that had to be razed.

In the Horus Heresy version, Russ gave a warning and the war was actually a lolchaos plot to take both Legions out.

>>13667862
He does?

Weird, considering that the entire last few chapters, ever since Magnus breaks the Emperor's shit on Terra, he literally becomes a massive emo and does nothing but undermine his own legion and waits for death with open arms.

Really. He puts the psychic barrier around prospero and CRIES and WANTS TO BE DESTROYED.

>>13667862
I saw it in the same way

Magnus was arrogant, and his legion suffered for it. However, I really enjoyed Ahriman as a character. Holding onto his humanity at all costs.

Only thing that bugged me; The council of Nikea was originally where the emperor forbade -sorcery-, and where the practices of the librarians (space marine sanctioned psykers) were laid down. In this book big E just said "no psychic powers. EVER."

>>13667896

The new version is in accordance with the new GW policy of Imperium having to always be the good guys and having the best stuff in-game as well, xenos and chaos can go screw themselves.

>>13667896
I think with the Horus Heresy books, they are trying to provide a greater depth of information. The Index Astartes article could be considered how history remembers the events, which makes sense since most people think of Russ like a brutal dumb barbarian, whereas in Prospero Burns he is a rather cunning and brilliant fellow.

Likewise, in 1k Sons, we see that all psychic stuff is being banned. Since there are still psykers in the Legions after the Council, I tend to think that Magnus blew the verdict out of proportion and misunderstood Russ's stance on things. Which is, don't tamper with things you are not ready to mess with.

His Runepriests are obviously psykers and he knows it. He also knows that they are very very careful in how they use their powers and work hard to master their power before taking it to the next level. Whereas with Magnus and Sons, they just rush headlong into new knowledge with no thought for the consequences.

In Magnus' eyes however, Russ is a ignorant hick who doesn't understand psychic might at all and everyone is out to get him.

>>13667940

Problem, xenos?

Maybe.. maybe Ahriman will finally find the Black Library and find out how to reverse the Rubric, and free himself and the Thousand Sons from Chaos. And maybe Magnus will redeem himself by freeing Fulgrim from possession.

>>13667975
Oh god I hope so. A Thousand Sons and Fulgrim were my most favourite HH novels. I had started really liking the TS and thinking Emperor's Children were just faggots in all sense of the word.

I ended both books with manly tears and a desire to lash out at the Imperium. This is why I play Chaos, Gentlemen.

>>13667947
Ah yes, someone who tries to read the metaplot.
Puts things in perspective. It has been a good day, nice explanation of the Battle of Prospero, and a possible connection to the lost Necrontyr souls and the Enslavers.

>>13668044
Necrontyr souls? Wha?

>>13667947
But then why does the Runepriest in 1k Sons scoff at the accusation that he is a psyker?

The general attitude of the Space Wolves was "He's not a filthy psyker witch,he is a SON OF THE STORM!" as if there's a difference. Of course the only difference could be that he's a space wolf and the rest are not and it's just one huge case of favouritism.

>>13668065
Russ is a bit different from the wolves

don't you remember the part where Ahriman notices that he's merely putting on the air of a savage? Russ is actually extremely intelligent; like all the primarchs

>>13668065
Thats what I'm saying, its a story told from the Thousand Sons point of view. Which means their bias shows through.

We see in Prospero Burns (which yes is biased towards the wolves a bit) that their Runepriests don't deny they are psykers, they just feel that one shouldn't delve into things one is not ready for.

So in Thousand Sons, we see that view is taking, stretched, misunderstood, and mangled until we get Lolololol not psykers, sons of the storm!

Since the Wolves have no illusions about themselves in Prospero Burns, having a view that they are the ones who have to carry out onerous tasks no other Legion will and they are fine with that. And in 1k Sons we have the victims telling the story. So in my opinion, I'm more inclined to trust Burns over Sons.

>>13668128
>>13668119
hmm, well I do have to read Prospero Burns so I'm not being some TS fanboy here. It's really great of you guys to tell the other side of the story :)

Maybe the truth needs to be gleaned from a mix of both. I mean 1k Sons makes it look like the TS were the victims 100% and that the wolves are just violent savages. I'm sure Burns has it as vice-versa. Both don't seem to be completely... accurate.

Prospero Burns is fantastic, you should definitely pick it up.

I'm both a Wolves and Sons fan, but alot of 1k Sons can be attributed to both a victim telling his side of the story and Tzeentch pulling the wool over Magnus' eyes. Its kind of clear that Ahriman though he and Wyrdmake were bros but Wyrdmake obviously felt that the Sons were going way too far. He is also very powerful to Ahriman because the Wolves focus on perfecting their strengths before tackling greater skills.

I remember a tournie where a guy had count as space wolves with thousand son models.

Were thousand sons space wolves before?

>>13667975
and become a ultramarine

>>13668488
No

Another thing Prospero Burns points out is that there were actually daemons that had infiltrated the TS, and could have been leading them to chaos without their knowledge

I also felt bad for Russ, because he knows that if any of the Primarchs rebel, he's going to have to be the one to stop them, he can never truly be a brother to his brothers...

>>13667975
Should Ahriman ever find the Black Library, daemons and every single last thief in the galaxy would not be far behind. They would pilfer all of the contents in the library, giving unstable information into the hands of what are essentially children playing with fire.

Even his he suddenly got a "noble" turn-of-heart, he would doom the galaxy by opening the gates to the expansive library on the Warp. So no. He'll most likely perish or take his own life when he finds out time cannot be reversed, nor can mistakes be removed.

>>13668682
Valid point. Or he could take it upon himself and other TS to guard the Black Library in a sort of self-imposed exile. Ahriman only desires to be bro, not galaxy damning.

>>13668682
> He'll most likely perish or take his own life when he finds out time cannot be reversed, nor can mistakes be removed.

or he'll out-knowledge tzeentch himself while all the Harlequins are busy kiss-of-deathing all the other warp things running in the library

>>13668714
The Harlequin mime had been strapped to its surface and was pinned by four Marines, each holding one of its
limbs in place. The thin, rubbery armour over the alien's chest had been sliced open and peeled back, exposing its porcelain skin.
In turn, the skin had been cut, burnt and shredded until it was awash with bloody colours, almost as vibrant as the eldar's armour
itself. The alien's mask had been removed, and I could clearly see its startling blue eyes bulge with each incision.
Ahriman circled the table slowly, muttering quietly to himself in a tongue that I recognised but could not fully recall. He was lost
in concentration, and seemed to be almost oblivious to the presence of the dying Harlequin on the table next to him. But as he
muttered the secret words of his forgotten language, more cuts and gashes appeared in the flesh of the prisoner, each wider and deeper than the last until blood started to ooze out of the joints in the creature's armour, pooling on the table and then on the floor
below.

'I suspect that this distaur, this mime, can speak. My hypothesis is that it will do so when it reaches its pain threshold. This is part
of a general theory that I have tested many times before, and it appears to hold true: all life forms change their nature after they
experience a certain amount of pain. Of course, the thresholds vary by species and training, but the general theory appears to be
sound.'

I watched the sorcerer as he turned away and continued to circle the desk.

For a few more seconds I watched the cuts and the
gashes continue to appear across the Harlequin's silent body, seeing its sparkling blue eyes bulge in agony even as the life drained
out of them. Just as I turned away, one of the eyeballs ruptured and a wide cut ripped across the eldar's face, covering his features in ocular liquids and blood.

The thing is, the Laughing God (who created the Library) is still alive. I'm not sure exactly what are the capabilities of an Eldar god, but I would expect that he could conceal it, move it, make some idiot get lost on the one true path to the Library and end up slipping into a webway portal to Alaska, and so on.

>>13668714
>>13668717
He seems like a compassionate brother to his legion and those who read Prospero Burns.

What do you expect to happen when a sorcerer is given all the knowledge on how to control and manipulate what is essentially the largest powersource in the galaxy, the Warp?

Does he: A) manage to outsmart a god of wile and cunning, then take upon himself to guard the place he so long sought to find from every other force in the galaxy, including the former guardians?

or B) Go on a mad powertrip believing he can reverse time and rewrite history, trying to become a new Warp-God?

If Ahriman is immediately tailed by Tzeentchian daemons into the Library, that means that Tzeentch is well aware of the sorcerers plans, knowing it won't work in the way he believes or hopes.

Besides, Harlequins know that should something like that happen, they would focus solely on stopping the one who would doom all. Failing that they'll rather sell their lives dearly and obliterate the whole place into teeny tiny atoms, blowing up the silly Thousand Sons with them.

See the thing is while the 1k sons novel put Ahriman in an extremely bro position (so much so he feels like a guy you'd share a beer with, like that one guy in the novel who actually fucking did just that, only it was wine), after 10k years in the current timeline, he's a prime asshole.

the guy gives mild power to cults and once they get even a slight amount of new info for Ahriman he just stomps all over their shit. Sad as it is, Ahriman is just a typical "FUCK EVERYTHING, I WANT MY LIBRARY" and is as cruel and callous as any other champion of chaos.

>>13667399

What, is there some sort of connection to the Blood Raven and the 1k Sons? I thought that was with the Black Legion...?

I haven't read Prospero Burns yet, but from what Ahriman managed to find out in his confrontaiton with Wyrmdrake, Horus had been feeding Russ lies. I don't think it was Emps intention to have Russ completely OBLITERATE Prospero, but more rather go there and demand Magnus and his legion to come to Terra for judgement.

However, with Horus lies, it seems the Wolves did a pre-emptied attack on Prospero. They must have been wiped up into a frenzy by Horus lies, what could he have told them? That they had schemed against the Emperor? That they had ruined his plans for the webway with malicious intent?

>>13668834

A Thousand Sons has a bit about "lost sons and the raven of blood, seeking lost knowledge" or something in that order, and the Dawn of War books have been hinting to that direction as well, Goto's work as they may be.

Abaddon's interest in the Blood Ravens is something else, he wants them killed and in Retribution has put Eliphas in charge of the extermination. There are many reasons why that might be, maybe he fears that Magnus snaps out of his lethargy if he hears that there are other non-dusted Sons alive beside his sorcerers and an active primarch could draw support away from warlords like Abaddon to enact his own plans. Currently the only daemon primarch showing any interest in the materium is Angron, and he's so simple-minded that he isn't a political threat to Abaddon. Magnus could be another story.

>>13668714

I'm thinking of having my players in my Rogue Trader campaign stumble upon Ahriman, or more rather he sets up to meet them. They are sort of renegades themselves right now, of no crime of their own. Carrying an important artefact that is the key to stopping the resurection of an ancient, dead race(no, not the necrons, something far more terrible), he's willing to help them out, if nothing else to thwart the other chaos lord that's on their heel. He has his own agenda, of course, and thinks the knowledge he can unlock from that forbidden planet can further his plans to enter the black library.

But it could be a cool scene where he tries to assure them he actually cares more about the Imperium than they might think. He might not like what it has become, but he still considers himself loyal. It'd be a pretty sweet scene of him reminiscing of the lost past, telling them of the wonders of the Imperiums golden age. Could offer some perspective none of them ever had faced, and some real hard decisions whether they are willing to trust this sorcerer of dark arts, or go on without him.

Or that might just be too cheesy, I don't know.

>>13668827
ten thousand years to brood does not do a man good

So i saw this thread and it got me interested in the Thousand Sons. I knew they got banished and were favored by Tzeentch. However, i didn't know all the canon surrounding the events. After reading the 40k Wiki I've come to hate Space Wolves on a whole new level. Hurr Durr we have "runes" so it's not magic, but we condemned a whole chapter of Marines for trying to save the ignorant piece of shit emprah.

Also, in fluff TS should be fucking nutz. Like, their Daemon Princes should be able to fuck shit up. Why are they not?

I feel oddly sympathetic towards the TS. I am genuinely ragin about the plight of an imaginary group of sorcerers. I need to go outside.

>>13668885

That is an interesting prospect, for sure. I've always wondered what the other primarchs were doing. Magnus seems to be a spirit form or whatever(I heard he became a daemon prince, eventually?), but he just seems to be sitting around, doing nothing. No idea why the other primarchs isn't leading the charge on Cadia though.

>>13668834
>>13668885
Yeah it's like this anon says. In the 1k sons novel, after Magnus returns to Prospero after breaking the Emperor's shit, he packs up a few fleets and sends them to the edges of prospero space. This is believed to be the origin of the blood Ravens.

Here's the various proof:

- In 1k Sons, a remembrancer (like a historian) is basically posessed by warp energy and is being burned alive by it. She has prophetic visions and she starts screaming about the Ravens of Blood who cry out for knowledge (of their missing primarch, origins etc) but it is denied to them.
- Magnus sends out the fleets to protect some bits of the legion
- Blood Ravens have a great amount of psykers.
- Ahriman is seen during the Dawn of War Omnibus I think and he mocks Angelos for his stupidity, asking why do the blood ravens happen to have the colour scheme of pre-heresy Thousand Sons.
- Thule finds records of the Blood Ravens origins during Dark Crusade i think and then burns them down "to protect the chapter". In Dawn of War 2 when thule is Dreadnought'D, he mistakes Thaddeus for Angelos and states "the secrets of Kaurava shall go with me to my grave" or something similiar.

Basically, even though Goto's an awful writer, others aren't and they all point to the conclusion that BR = TS loyalists. the fact that the BR haven't started turning to Spawn at random is because of Tzeentch I bet.

In 1k Sons, Tzeentch warns Magnus that he has had the fate of the legion in his hands always and that the contract they made together (stop the Flesh Change) is now void. Tzeentch snapped his fingers and marines started turning.

You could say Tzeentch has his own plans for the Blood Ravens and that, should they fail, he merely snaps his fingers once more and they all turn to mush.

>>13668947

Read the 1k sons book, you will rage even harder. Graham McNeil does an excellent job to make you feel sympathetic to the Sons.

But you also have to realise, while they only want the best for everyone(enlightenment, the furtherment of the human race through the power of sorcery and psychics), they get played royally. Psychic powers are very dangerous, and they do not really approach it with the humility and care that they should. They also start touching sorcery, which is basically psychic powers on crack, where you start using more and more powers of the warp. These kind of things really led to their downfall.

Basically, they all got played. They thought they were masters of their own powers, but in reality their powers got the better of them. This is obvious in the ending of the book, as more and more of them start blowing themselves up, getting betrayed by their warp-familiars, and rampart mutations.

>>13668976

I dislike the idea that everything is according to Tzeentch's plans, if that was true, chaos would have won a long time ago. I'm sure the Blood Ravens are part of his plans, and why they haven't mutated rampantly... maybe they were out of his touch. If they were the fleets that Magnus sent away before the coming of the Wolfs, perhaps he couldn't touch them past Prospero. That place was ripe with the warp, especially after that many rituals he had done so recently.

>>13668885

But how could Abbadabba have considered such a possibility in the first place? He's not exactly the thinking type.

>>13669042
Thats the thing. Tzeentch USED to be the most powerful Chaos God. However, winning meant he had nothing to scheme against. So he decided to scheme against himself. Win or lose, Tzeentch accomplishes one of his plans.

Thats why he doesn't ever win again, because he is actively working against himself.

>no, not the necrons, something far more terrible)

there's nothing more terrible than necrons. they are the oldest race in the galaxy.

>>13668889

I need someone to tell me if this is a good or bad idea. Including a major character like Ahriman in the campaign could potentially be a disaster, or awesome.

I need some objective opinions on this.

>>13669078
Not true. See The Harrowing.

>>13669076

So... because Tzeentch was winning, he turned schizophrenic, and is now actively competing against himself?

Insanity on that scale would make a lot of sense actually.

>>13669042
Don't know what to tell you man. I don't think Tzeentch's plans are anything akin to destruction.

Look at it like this. These are full-fledged gods. apart from some shenanigans with their powers waxing and waning, they are Omnipotent. Someone like Tzeentch would logically have something akin to seeing the future. He has proven this to be true with his speech of "ever since the emperor got the primarchs your entire legion have been my bitches, you included".

We can't understand the goings-on of a god of treachery, magic, cunning and knowledge but all fingers point at just him doing his thing. He likely doesn't want to end the Imperium. All tzeentch wants to do is, effectively, play ten billion games of chess simultaneously 24/7.

>>13669106
Bad idea. Ahriman would in no way still be loyal. He would be very bitter by this point. Now would he maybe want to displace the Ruinous Powers? Maybe. But he doesn't care for the Imperium anymore.

Now hiring your RT group to find artifacts for him? Sure he would do that. Though probably through some intermediaries. Face to face is too high an honor for some treasure hunting hirelings.

Ahriman at this point, to me, is a bitter old marine who has been betrayed by Emperor and Primarch. He doesn't care about anyone but himself at this point because he is the only one he can truly trust anymore. He will focus on his own goals and his own alone.

Captcha: Pokemon sespo.
No Captcha, no pokemans in the 40ks.

>>13669139

Abaddon will probably come to duke it out with Ahriman if he ever gains access to Black Library.

Judging by their current statlines, that's not gonna end well for Ahriman.

>>13669121
makes no real sense since he was scared shitless along with his chaos-god buddies to face Emps.
They stole the infant primarchs as well because they were scared to get their asses handed to them and all four of them backing Horus wasn't enough to make them flee when Emps decided to curbstomp Horus.

>>13669139
>No Captcha, no pokemans in the 40ks.
Fire Warrior wants to battle!

>>13669166
Scared shitless by the Big E? You do realize that the Emperor cut deals with the Ruinous Powers for much of his Crusade Era strength. And alot of the was invested in the Primarchs.

See the chaos prayers written on the primarch pods for confirmation of this.

The Emperor cut deals and then reneged on them. The Powers were aware of this and decided to take the Primarchs as their champions in the bargain. They managed to wrest half of them away.

>>13669166
No actually, the Primarchs got whisked away through the warp because the emperor didn't uphold his end of the bargain. It's why the heresy occured in the first place.

- Emperor asks Chaos for help.
- Chaos helps on one condition: Make humanity follow Chaos.
- When Emperor succeeds, he gives a giant middle finger to Chaos.

this is why Chaos fucking hates the Emperor. emps is a douche of colossal proportions. He's like the proverbial Alpha Jock in those american coming-of-age college movies.

>>13669166

They were never "scared of the emperor" not in William King's original telling of the Emperor vs Horus battle nor in Alan Merrett's Visions of Heresy.

And the reason behind stealing or corrupting the Primarchs need not be some unmentioned fear of the Emperor, who has very tangible limits, not able to drive out a horde of daemons from the webway, not being able to prevent repossession of Horus and having to kill him after mindblasting him to his senses. In fact, Horus Heresy implies that they did it out of revenge, or mere spite depending if you believe the Chaos Gods helping in Primarch's creation or not.

>>13669211
Indeed. I personally think the Powers didn't bother facing off against the Emperor because even if they won, it would have cost them some power or at least force them to focus their attentions on him for a time. They are ageless beings, why not just wait the Big E out? And get some followers in the bargain.

>>13669139

The idea is that he's willing to face them in person mostly because of the artefact they carry, and the part they play in all of this.

But yeah, it might be stupid. He'd be the one to tell them of the location of the planet, and the purpose of the artefact. But it may just become way too much of "gm throws in a powerful NPC and undermines the players."

>>13669279
It could be good, except for the "worse than the necrons" part.
That's ridiculous beyond compare.

>>13669331

Mogul Kamir conquered a tomb world with the largest cavalry charge in Imperium's history according to Codex: Imperial Guard. Necrons have joined the worf team in 5th edition.

>>13669108
>Not true. See The Harrowing.

what's "the Harrowing" ?

False Gods (or was it galaxy in flames?) says that the chaos gods moved against the Emperor because whatever he was doing on Terra was destroying their realms, it also mentions the bargain big E. made with them

It says that the chaos gods are not interested in the material plan, just in the preservation of their own.

The bargain with Horus went something like "you kill big E. and take the galaxy and we keep the warp"

And we all know the Chaos gods are known for telling the truth... especially Tzeentch...

If a Chaos god says they helped create the Primarchs you can bet they are either lying their asses off or overstating the truth to gain an advantage.

When did Magnus go from having absolutely massive-as-fuck beefy arms to tiny T-Rex arms? You would thing the large arms would be more fitting since he was supposed to be the largest and physicly strongest (although not the greatest fighter) of the Primarchs.

>>13669385
I didn't say they told the truth.
Pretty much everything they showed Horus in that vision was out of context and leaving out all the key details

>>13669422

Maybe he's mutating?

A Thousand Sons states that he lost his original body in the battle with Russ and that his daemon prince form is fashioned solely from his spirit.

>>13669422
I KNOW MAN, WHAT THE FUCK?!

This thing is literally the biggest issue I had with the book. I loved the entire thing from cover to cover but everytime I picked it up I just found myself staring at Magnus on the cover and hearing "BABBY ARMS! BABBY ARMS!" in a whiny voice in my head.

now, thats just an imperial propaganda

>>13669497
>>13669422

Well lets be honest here, the cover art of any book, 40k or not, is almost always misguiding. Somehow it just seems like publishers doesn't give a flying fuck what's on the front page of the book.

>>13670084

>>13670103

Oh yeah, this is the book that has Ulthwe sacrificing Eldar and Space Marines to their masters the Dark Eldar, in turn led by Lelith Hesperax who has a pact with Slaaneshi daemons.

>>13670141
interesting.

Why is there no campaign for it?
I want Rogue Traders involved.

>>13670103
The cover artists saw it was another C.S. Goto book, and just said "fuck it, it's not like anyone's gonna take it off the shelf, anyway".

>>13669358

>chaos gods saying that big e was destroying their realm
>chaos gods
>Chaos..... gods...

This sounds like a trustworthy source.

>>13670103

That is truly a horrible 3d rendering. It's like they made the Marine, and then worked on the eldar, ran out of time, and forgot to even add proper textures.

>>13669219
>>13669211
>>13669198

>>13670205

I like how in both The First Heretic and in 1k Sons, the main arguments the daemons / chaos gods use is "I have no reason to lie to you", and it keeps getting at me everytime.

Lorgar gets mad because emps made pacts with real gods to create them, and at first he doesn't believe them, and then they say "I have no reason to lie to you" and OH WELL I GUESS THAT MAKES IT BETTER.

ASFDGASDHGAHWF

>>13670205

I'd rather believe Matt Ward than the Emperor.

>>13670361

Honestly, I would have gone "Gee I'm genre saavy enough to know you're trying to fool me here. GTFO out of my head, bitch."

>>13669353
The Harrowing is something mentioned in of the Dark Heresy rule books, I think it's The Radicals Handbook.
Basically in the M32 the Imperium found this "thing" they named the Echoing Labyrinthe. Shortly after after creatures started pouring out of it. Creatures that defied every known law of physic and dealt devastating losses to IG, SM, Xeno, you name it. So the Inquisition had to use Chaos Sorcery combined with forbidden tech from the Dark Age of Technology to destroy the Echoing Labyrinth. How ever many fear that the Harrowing will return, watching from their outerspace dimension that does not exist in Realspace or Warpspace.

>>13670437
>>Echoing Labyrinthe
>>Snicker

Why the fuck do I see dirty jokes where none exist?!

E made pacts with the ruinous powers? Yea and I shat them into existance. And I don't know if it was retconned the fukk out of existance or not but as I recall Khorne became self-aware during the crusades, Nurgle during the great plague and Tzeentch during the renaissance. A whole lot of buttsex and a couple of thousand years later Slaneesh was born around 30k, two thousand give or take.
Now Emps was born in Anatolia around 8000 B.C. Meaning he kinda pre-dates the chaos gods.

>>13672053

Why would the chaos gods be born out of the actions of humans? Humanity is far from the oldest, and FAR from the most advanced race out there. One would think that Khorne Nurgle and Tzeentch at least have existed since time immemorial.

>>13665924

Now. I was really, really pumped for this book when I heard it was going to come out. However, I'm a little leery of the novel itself. A lot of the things just ring a little strange to me...

Bear in mind- I found a lot of the ideas introduced to be *awesome*. Some aren't *quite* that much, however. Like, Magus finding enlightment in a...random stone statue. That was weird. Or the battle against the Titans in the opening, with DBZ-levels of power. Not to mention more goddamn annoying remembrancers, and people practicing Tai Chi.

I felt Prospero Burns- Which has a *very* unique take on the Space Wolves- was significantly better...It 'feels' more 40K. A Thousand Sons...Some parts just ring wrong to me, like the way their powers don't seem to be the 'Control this *carefully*, or it'd blow up in your face' kind of thing, but are more like D&D Wizard spells.

Amon is pretty cool, though, and I liked the OH SHI- blurb at the ending. Ultimately, though, I really wish Abnett did this book, and Graham 'Prospero Burns' in stead. Dan would probably get the alien nature of Tizca over better.

>>13672053

the Ruinous Powers existed as blobs of Warp forever. they didn't get names and become distinct entities until way later. and then the Emperor made pacts with them in M29 or M30.

>>13672120

Abnett and McNeil actually started on the books the other would write, but eventually realised they couldn't do the faction they had initially signed on for justice and swapped. So no, apparently, Dan Abnett couldn't do Tizca very well. I'm reasonably sure they would have collaborated on each other's books though, so whatever.

Best character of A Thousand Sons was Kalophis (Spelling?). Man that guy was awesome, taking on all those psychneunin.

>>13672268

Poor Phosis T'Kar blew himself up :C

I did like Emanuel though, he was suave, and just a regular dude. I really disliked how they made it feel like he had no idea what to do, and all the mysteries of the warp was beyond him. That's just bogus, while Space Marines have powerful bodies, that doesn't automatically make them better psyker. I suppose they have the power of time, equipment and willpower training of the Astartest to help them, but the most powerful psykers in the universe are usually mere "mortals".

I just felt bad for the dude, he wanted to learn to get more powerful, but he was "merely a mortal". I just wanted him to rise to supreme levels and own some space wolves or somesuch.

What did happen to him and Camille anyway, do they return in Prospero Burns? No spoilers on this please :S

>>13672323
Nah, Prospero Burns was all spehss wulfs, all the time.

Pre-heresy Thousand Sons posting in this thread.

We still fight for Prospero

>>13672334

So what the hell happened to the Rememberences and their friends? The book wrote that it was not the last time he would see Prospero. Then the spess wulf fleet comes in, and it just ends. Did they get blown out of the sky? Managed to escape? Nobody knows :(

That's terrible authoring, build up compassion for characters, and then we don't even know what happened with them.

Bumpan for more discusionnan

I've never read any CS Goto. Why is he so frowned upon?

>>13673137
Man-portable multilazors, Slaaneshi farseer on eldar loli rape, 'if eldar even have spleens', need I go on?

>>13667659

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6226554/1/Confessions_of_a_Wayward_Son

Wished there were more chapters.

>>13672386

In Prospero Burns, Hawser, the viewpoint character, remarks that he heard they turned up. However, he never met them, and only knew about them after the fact. In his defense, he was knee-deep in shit at that time.

>>13675267

Kasper is admittedly one of the more badass humans in the series...Especially since he's still very aware of what he is. Note that he appears to be the third proto-Astartes in the Heresy- There's Kol Phaeron, what's-his-name from the Dark Angels (Who had simply shitty books, alas), and now this guy. Kasper seems to be weakest on the power ranking, though- He's visibly inferior, while Kol Phaeron even got acid spit and wore Terminator armor.