>>9663834

>It's not like necromancy is inherently evil.

Except it is.

What makes you think there aren't? Good necromancers are a pretty standard hero type in many RPGs.

D2 Necromancer.

I figure that he is pretty nice.

Also, given that you can become an archlich pretty easily in D&D 4e without murdering kittens and what not, and there being a good chunk of "nice" fey undead.

"RISE FALLEN WARRIORS! GO HELP THE FARMERS"

Right. Because Zombies and Skeletons and stuff like that are evil?

>>9663855
That depends entirely on the setting and you know it.

Spells that raise the dead tend to carry the Evil tag.

>>9663877

Creepy? Kinda. Evil? Nah. They do whatever they're told, so they're only as bad as the guy pulling their strings.

>>9663877
No, but they ARE disconcerting.

Because desecrating the remains of the dead, the possible setting-dependant act of tearing a soul from the afterlife or similar soul-wrenching shenanigans notwhitstanding, is generally percieved to be the height of douchebaggery.

>>9663899
>>9663902
Right. And I'm sure people will assume the worse when there are skeletons and walking dead bodies coming towards them.

>>9663893
Which doesn't mean anything whatsoever... in 3.5 there's even a PrC for standard lawful good paladins who have armies (well, squads) of undead and become partially undead themselves.

rolled 76 = 76

>>9663834

I personally play any kind of necromantic focused character as cheery and upbeat. If you spend your entire life around death, gives you all the more reason to enjoy life while you can!

Luckily, I saved this post someone made for just an occasion.

>Many have heard that becoming a lich is inherently an evil act. Details, however, are rarely discussed. After all, publicizing the details of necroapotheosis would be nothing but a boon to those considering the dark path.

First, it is essential to understand what we mean when we talk of "negative energy." Is it energy, but inherently destructive? Naturally not. Many kinds of energy are destructive. Is it the opposite of life energy? Well, while that's almost correct, it's not a very informative phrase. Doesn't mean much, "opposite of life energy."

No, there's a simpler, more accurate way to express it. "Negative energy" is energy passing out of the world. Like water flowing downhill and driving a waterwheel, power is generated when life flows into death. This is why many undead actively feed upon the living; it is life force, extinguished, that gives them power.

All undead are powered by negative energy, and so all are powered by the annihilation of living anima. Some seek and harvest actively; vampires, for instance. Some are passive... the tiny deaths of grass, distant animals, and the tiny creatures that surround us are enough to sustain the flow through the black hole at the heart of a mindless skeleton.

Liches, then, are something of an anomaly, no? For, with a few exceptions, the more powerful an undead, the more likely it is to actively feed... mere flesh for a ghoul, living blood for the parasites, and souls themselves for the great Devourers.

How, then, do liches feed? Cleverly. Automatically. The process is active as long as the phylactery exists, and once set in motion the lich never need concern himself with the details.

More specific? Let's just say those who suspect lich activity should keep an eye on infant and child mortality statistics.

>>9663929

I'd expect the one at the lead of the pack to don a bright orange jacket and start dancing.

>>9663935
Which PrC is that?

>>9663834

"Hey guys, d'ya mind if I channel pure negative energy into the corpses of your loved ones, reanimating them as hideous unliving constructs bound to my servitude? No? Thaaa-aaanks!"

Necromancers deal with death, but they don't have to be the 'raise hordes of undead minions and conquer the world' types of people. They could be specialist healers, creating cures for plagues or specializing in healing people with horrible diseases and strange afflictions. Imagine a necromancer who finds some poor peasant who had his arms ripped off by a bugbear or whatever, and instead of laughing maniacally and sending skeletons to loot his farm uses his knowledge to make him some new arms or something.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy

>>9663872
the D2 Necromancers are all true neutral with the job of maintaining the balance between heaven and hell

>>9663929
Again depends on the setting.
Last game i was in the body was seen as a hunk of meat once the spirit animating it departed.
As such it was common for poorer families to sell dead loved ones to necromancers to be converted into cheap labor.
It wasn't that unusual to see zombies doing menial labor.

>>9663961
Cause that's the thrilleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer?

>>9663980

No, they were good.

Basically, they thought that both angels and demons were dicks, and should be kicked out.

They just didn't buy into the angels being autogood, but saw that they weren't as actively dangerous as demons.

The only thing that makes necromancy evil is that it uses the souls of the dead to power the undead bodies, which is Not Very Nice™.

If you have necromancy that doesn't, then the only thing wrong with it is violating the entirely socially subjective taboo on tampering with dead bodies. If your society doesn't even have that taboo, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with just animating some remains (although if it doesn't use the souls of the dead there's no difference between animating a pile of bones and animating, say, a bunch of twigs).

>>9663980
The necromancers may have been good, neutral, evil, or merely individualistic, because its simply in humanity's best interests to oppose both Heaven and Hell.

Fun fact: Tyrael was the swing vote when the denizens of Heaven were deciding whether to exterminate mankind. With Tyrael out of the picture, the saints may go marching in...

>>9663935
Wait, what? What's it called?
Need!

I have a mathematical proof that shows that necromancers are evil.

1) Heroes are good.
2) Heroes kill the fuck out of everything.
3) Therefore killing things is a good act.
4) Necromancers do the opposite of making things dead.
5) Therefore necromancers are evil.

>>9664008
In a savage worlds game i was in you could animate corpses and other things using elemental spirits.
Putting a fire elemental into a dry corpse was always a fun thing to do.

>>9663980
Afaik, that balance doesn't even concern them. They're more a "Humanity first"-organization.

>>9664031
Wait doesn't that mean healers are evil too?

Moral Option 1: The Crawling Darkness

Many DMs will choose to have Negative Energy in general, and undead in particular, be inherently Evil. So much so that we can capitalize it: Evil. And say it again for emphasis: Evil. That means that when you cast a negative energy wave you are physically unleashing Evil onto the world. When you animate a corpse, you are creating a being whose singular purpose is to make moral choices which are objectionable on every level.

That’s a big commitment. It means that anyone using Inflict Wounds is an awful person, at least while they are doing it. The Plane of Negative Energy is in this model the source of all Evil, more so than the Abyss or Hell. It’s Evil without an opinion, immorality in its purest most undiluted form.

Moral Option 2: Playing with Fire

Many DMs will choose to have Negative Energy be a base physical property of the magical universe that the D&D characters live in – like extremes of Cold or Fire it is inimical to life, and it is ultimately no more mysterious than that. An animate skeleton is more disgusting and frightening to the average man than is a stone golem, but it’s actually a less despicable act in the grand scheme of things because a golem requires the enslavement of an elemental spirit and a skeleton has no spirit at all.

The Plane of Negative Energy in this model is precisely the same as all the other elemental planes: a dangerous environment that an unprotected human has no business going to.

>>9663834
dude, necro-wizards are my thing. but most ppl tend to go towards sorc just because of more spells/day. also, parties see melee as the most precious commodity and dont focus on round groups. they wait untill the 5th or 6th player to be an arcane caster. its a waste tho. necromancers to be effective they need alot of evocation or they are going to be ruining themselves. its not just necromancers, its the arcane class as a whole that needs adjusting towards player preference. it saddens me to say so, but casters have become the last kid to be picked on the dodge ball team. i baww at almost every campaign i host because they have no casters. and later down the road when i throw one at them, they complain because their WILL saves arent high enough or something.

>>9664041
when i said "balance" i meant it like this.
nether heaven or hell gets a big enough upper hand so they don't have time to conquer sanctuary.

>>9664093
Are you serious? If its 3.5 you're talking about then you clearly don't realize that casters own fighters, they rape them in their asses hard. Unless you never play past 3rd level or something playing as a wizard you get spells that can insta kill among other awesome things, and if you're a cleric you can become more powerful than a fighter through buffs. 3.5 is caster edition.

It sounds to me like your gaming group is just retarded.

So, the Messiah Jesus Chirst, great necromancer or GREATEST necromancer?

I loved playing good D20 necrowizards. True necromancers wouldn't have worked due to rule constraints, of course, but still.

I'd like to add something to OP's list of examples: my all-time favorite, the skeletal mariachi band, performing charity events even posthumously.

>>9664144
thats...thats what i was saying. did you read or something?

"i baww at almost every campaign i host because they have no casters. and later down the road when i throw one at them, they complain because their WILL saves arent high enough or something"

last senance too, yo. i was supporting the caster class, but i was saying that for some reason ppl dont chose them.

off topic, I've only played aD&D, 3.5, and Pathfinders

>>9664160

Shit necromancer. He couldn't even raise a single undead follower.

>> Why aren't there any good necromancers?

Actually I read this Japanese light novel series called Nekuroma which is a generic school harem romance comedy thing.

Except that the main character is a necromancer and the main heroine is a skeleton.

He's not really good, though. Not evil, but the guy at one point goes around using magic to strip everyone naked which doesn't really strike me as good.

>>9664206
Are you kidding me? Have you seen Christians? They are your model zombie!

I apologize, that joke was in poor taste.

A necromancer could do a lot of good for a nation.

Skeletons are great workers. For a small investment of black onyx you get a tireless worker to farm, man factories doing simple tasks, carry shit around, you name it.

It doesn't stop there, oh no. Zombies retain their fly speed after all, so if you grab some cheap giant flying creatures to raise you can strap seats to the fuckers and BOOM. Your nation now has air travel.

These fuckers are mindless too, meaning that even a budding necromancer can whip out a control undead and take care of business. Sure he can't make em, but the world needs managers damn it.

>In many basic religions, killing is considered evil
>You've killed trillions of micro-organisms within the span of each year, if not a trillion times that depending on what you do
>creating artificial life from the dead is considered evil by humans
>machines with mechanical bodies, they're just material, just like dead flesh being animated
>undead things are a living type of creature if you consider artificial intelligence a type of life form

inb4 wtfamireading.jpg


Yeah, necromancers are sooooo evil... /sarcasm

>>9664250
That was a good joke.

And my home boy JC raised an undead follower. Lazarus or something...

He's got a bit to go, but raising yourself is pretty badass.

I don't have the copypasta handy, OP, but I'll grab it when I get home if the thread's still up. Basically, we brainstormed "What setting would result in good, socially acceptable necromancy?", and what resulted was an undead analogue to the Roman Empire.

>>9664206
Lazarus

Is necromancy arcane or divine in nature? Does it come from the deity that the necromancer worships, or can the necromancer do the majicks all on his own?

>>9664306
>These fuckers are mindless too, meaning that even a budding necromancer can whip out a control undead and take care of business. Sure he can't make em, but the world needs managers damn it.

This terrifies me more than anything. The air full of a bunch of McDonalds managers steering around thirty tons of flying skeletal dragon. That nation is fucked if there's a GED for necromancy.

this is tha best necro, yo

channeling negative energy twists your mind and turns you evil

Are you kidding me? People want good necromancers now?

Wasn't it enough that the paladin got completely desecrated?

>>9663855

Dustmen faction in Sigil, Baelnorn, Archlich to name a few

Sorry bro not all of us play forgotten realms

>>9664406
all arcane spells are gained through knowledge or blood relation to dragons or other things. clerics can chose "inflict" spells from their devine spell list. most necromancers are WIS or SORC because the arcane necromancy spells are GRATUITOUSLY better than any other set... i dont think druids get them, unless the complete devine book gave them one. paladins, rangers, and a few others cant even cast offensive spells. wu jen and other non-core classes mix and match. just go download the PDFs of all the books

Hell, Healing spells were necromancy in previous editions. In 3.5 some re-re decided to change Healing spells to Conjuration, and left Inflict spells in necromancy. They be fucking with my verisimilitude.

>>9664453
There've been good necromancers since there've been necromancers, period.

>>9664477
Ahh. I thought that if necromancy was divine in nature, the god would say "Fuck it" and take away the necromancers powers if he suddenly started using skeletons to plant flowers.

>>9664453
made a spell sword with Elf Paladin Wizard and focused on channeling negative energy. Got a feat that i cant remember NOT from the core books about how to channel your positive energy spells (cure light wounds) into negative energy. played decent.

>>9664486
The very act of necromancy is evil. You are taking the remains of someone and animating them. Unless you can show me a civil necromancer that asks the relatives of the deceased for a permission to animate him/her, this fact stands.

>>9664493
naw. then rule zero would be thrown around too much...

In the ECS, the Karrnath government was aligned with the Blood of Vol. They were able to use undead hordes to build up their undead army, who fought alongside their regular army.

Some families even thought it was a privelege for their brothers or sons to continue to fight for the country after death.

>>9664518

They aren't using it anymore. Or, they could agree to let their body be used after death. Your argument holds no water.

>>9663834
Make one, and show your players that black and white good and evil is terrible.
Make them choose between helping an "evil necromancer" or killing a "self-sacrificing hero"

>>9664518
Tell you what I'm going to do in my next game, just to spite you.

I am going to make a lich.

This lich is going to use his powers for good, and aid specific people in return for permission to use their bodies to help others, once they're done with them (once they've died a natural death) and doing things in the meantime just for the sake of it -- someone's kid died from choking? Resurrect that kid, pat him on the head, get a good PR campaign going.

Use army of skeletons to build small town into bustling city, arm them to keep the peace and protect the city from marauders. Use said good PR from doing all of this to convince people to give permission to use bodies for purposes of adding to skeletal army or holding them in reserve if it is needed.

>>9664602
>They aren't using it anymore
Robbing graves is totally not-evil, then?

>They could agree to let their body be used after death
You have that on paper, chief?

>>9664624
there's a build for that already, lol

if i DM it, i'll let ya too. hell! you can be a blackguard prestige trying to atone for you sins or some shit!

the law of D&D states: if you can RP it (and DM willing) it can be done

>>9664624
Good luck trying to convince peasants to join your side, what with being an undead monstrosity and all.

Is that torches and pitchforks I hear?

>>9664650
Sweet. I'm all about that.

In fact, the most awesome thing ever would be an undead campaign. ALL players are undead.

>>9664641

Evil, probably not. Just illegal.

And to the second question, sure.

>>9664656
No, that's me being a former cleric with enough charisma (and the brains to wear a jeweled mask to hide my face) to go 'sup. I can fix life and death, let me know if shit happens. also you know those kobolds that kept trashing your farm every two months? yeah I took care of that for you bro.'

>>9664641

>>inferring that a chaotic good character really cares about whether or not they have permission to advance the greater good

>>9664206
technically he did, lazarus of bethlehem whom he brought back from the dead (probably resusatated)

>>9664656

Luckily Liches get a +2 to Charisma as part and parcel of who they are. They're some charming motherfuckers is what's going on.

>>9664681
Lazarus was just playing a long game of hide and seek and Jesus told him it was over.

I find it funny how people always want to turn things upside down.

Evil paladins... Good necromancers...

Human nature, i guess.

>>9664624

That's how it always starts dude.

But the churches, the paladin-led adventurer bands, and all the other people who are going to be arbitrarily opposed to your work are gonna be all over wrecking your shit, no matter how convincingly you attempt to assure the public, "Nonono, my undead civilization is a good thing!"

Pretty soon you're gonna have to start giving those skeletons weapons to defend themselves.

Pretty soon you're gonna have to start building walls. With spikes. Blackened by the arson attempts of constant adventurer attack and encrusted with their blood as you are forced to defend yourself.

Pretty soon you'll get tired of trying to reason with them. Bigger, more prominent heroes come to stop you, you have to kill them, maybe even have your undead minions swarm them.

etc etc.

You'll be up in your tower shaking your fist at the countryside in no time, screaming into the wind through your undead teeth, "FOOLS, NONE OF YOU UNDERSTAND MY VISION! YOU'LL SEE SOON ENOUGH! YOU'LL ALL SEE!"

>>9664661
theres a book for that, lol

its like Apple Apps. there is already something giving guidelines. ahh... how long has it been? 1970s? 40 years of experience and we are given the most beautiful game ever made...
^_^

>>9664692
dude, blackguard is one of the most broken base prestiges in the game! 2 familiars? and can cast more spells per lvl? and i get bonus shit for also being an ex-pali? FUCK YES

>>9664683 look at >>9664422

>>9664715

>not a primary spellcaster

>powerful

whatthefuckamireading.jpg

>>9664719

What?

>>9664721
yea, dude. check it on the SRD if you arent familiar with it.
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/srd/blackguard.html

>>9664725
> implying statement has been made
> repeat

>>9664734

*facepalm*

No, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I know pretty much exactly what blackguard does, by memory. Which is fairly sad, on some levels.

>>9664641

Dammit, need my copypasta!

Some of the tenets of this eventual good necromantic society:

Fear not the necromancer; His is the tireless arm that defends our land.
There is no greater service one can offer the realm than use of that which you no longer need: your body after death.
Necromancers /use/, never take, and never for personal gain.
All bodies are used with the permission of the deceased or their family, with the exception of criminals and the enemy. Even those will be given lawful burial when the army is no longer needed.
The duty of the living is to live. The duty of the dead is to serve as tireless protectors.
Celebrate the service of your friends and loved ones. Honor their continuing sacrifice by making their form as pleasing as possible to the eye and nose.

>>9664696
That's why I charisma at the paladins and convince them to fall and join my side if at all possible.

Beside, if I have a SHINING CITY OF JUSTICE with skeletons and other such things that scan as true neutral because my DM isn't a dick calling everything undead evil automatically, why would anyone aside from the paladins come in, and when all the people are happy and I express my willingness to meet the group and go 'sup, bro, Pelor? yeah, he's awesome' at him, everyone beside the paladin is going to WTF at him rather than assume a lich trick because I'm gonna diplomance those poor bastards into loving me.

That's right.

My lich is a fucking diplomancer.

>>9664749
i misunderstood your previous comment... your implications were skewed

>>9664761
What if no one wants to give their body after they die?

I did have an idea for a game set in a nation where necromancy was the norm for magic (or at least more commonly accepted practice than usual) and the recently dead were put to work as beast of burden, front line soldiers and other such work. A necromancer might also be able to not only reanimate a body but restore some spark of its soul, to allow the bereaved one last farewell in the case of sudden death - or in the case of murders, to ask the victim themselves whodunnit.

>>9664795

...Then maybe you're in a bind. But honestly, plenty of people *donate* their organs for other people for free, how many people would be willing to sell their body after they're dead for money right now?

>>9664806
So you would pay people to give their body to you after you die?

Paladin walks in, hears of this, deems it extortion and slays you.

Hey /tg/, writefag here. Got ideas for this Necromancer haven city of pure justice and honor and stuff. WHAT IS OUR LICH'S NAME? WHAT IS HIS CITY NAME? What is his kingdom name? How should he be adressed?

>>9664817
*After THEY die

derp

Sometime I want to play a cheerful, perky necromancer woman who uses brightly-painted and lacquered skeletons to hold festivals, run fairs, and so on. An agreement with local townships gives her the right to claim newly-dead bodies in exchange for (a) providing funerals and using spells like Speak With Dead to relay the wisdom of those passed, and (b) providing skeletons for labor during crop harvesting season.

>>9664795

People do give up their bodies for scientific study, or for organ transplants. Hell, some people give up their bodies so their flesh can become plasticised and made an exhibit for Bodyworks.

>>9664817
or he says okay, becomes a blackguard and is totally badass

>>9664817

I'd like to see a Paladin take down a Lich. Solid Fog, Fly, use wand of Fireball until he faceplants.

Also, he'd be wrong to call it extortion, since I'm paying them for a service that I am very generous in assuming it is theirs to give.

I remember the undead campaign for Heroes of Might and Magic 4 (not that anyone remembers that game)

The undead guy carved out a piece of mostly inhospitable land and decided he'd just sit on it until the end of time. Any refugees from other lands are welcomed and will not be attacked by the undead armies. He wouldn't attack anyone and in return nobody (except a few overzealous knights) would attack him. Because in every other heroes of might and magic game there was always some big necromancer who would decide he wanted to take over the world. Once he got his army going everyone would team up and take him down, this ALWAYS happens. Very rarely do the undead actually win.

At the end of the day he did get his nice little kingdom that bordered every other kingdom/empire and he lived happily ever after.

>>9664826

Dude, she could totally paint up the skeletons like Dia de los Muertos style. It would be awesome.

>>9664836
You are paying them after hearing that they are not willing to give their bodies, meaning you want their bodies even if it's not okay by them.

What's a poor peasant going to say when offered money?

>>9664818

Maybe we finally have something for Granpa Lich to do as his day job.

>>9664836
dude, all you need is spectral hand and touch attack him to death. paralyzing touch, ghoul touch, that 1d8+5 natural attack shit. man, its like groping someone to death

>>9664826

Sounds very Mexican Day of the Dead, which would be a pretty cool take on a fantasy necromancer.

>>9664818

I like the idea that the living see the city as a kind of utopia; while alive, they are protected and provided for by the dead, who ensure a peaceful and orderly society. Life is easy and you give yourself over at death to work for the next generation.

With that in mind, perhaps the Lich is some kind of Taskmaster or Overseer, co-ordinating the dead workforce?

>>9664852

Ummm... no. That's not how coercion works. If I walk into a store and say 'Hey, give me this bag of oranges.' and the grocer says no. Then I'm like 'Here's 5 dollars for this bag of oranges' and he's like 'Ok' than I have not in fact perpetrated extortion, I have in fact just bought a sack of oranges. Same situation with the peasants.

>>9664836
Epic level paladin, turn undead

DnD morality isn't realistic subjective morality, it's intentionally an objective system of clear moral distinctions. The "Existence of Undead = evil" philosophy dispenses with issues of relative morality and ethics on purpose. It's just the baseline of the system, it assumes the existence of clearly defined, objective evil.

It's entirely up to one's DM to observe that morality system or not.

>>9664873
I as seeing this Lich as the ruler of this city/country, etc. Just trying to get ideas together for a name, kingdom name, perhaps even title. :o

>>9664873

Maybe the Lich is just an advisor to the city council? Not the ruler per se, like the head of the 'Department of Reanimation' or something like that? A real pillar of the community, mind you, and people look up to him for all the magical innovation he's done to make life in their city easier?

>>9664861

He'd pass the fortitude save.

>>9664877
IS THAT HOW YOU AND YOU'RE KIND SEE THE BODY OF A LIVING BEING?

A COMMODITY COMPARABLE TO A SACK OF ORANGES?

YOUR VILE DEEDS STOP HERE, LICH! HAVE AT THEE!

>>9664884

Life Ward. Never leave home without it as an intelligent undead.

>>9664909
>you're

God, i hate myself.

>>9664901
>>9664899
Liches who were once kings isnt that far out there. they have money, and they have power over those with... power. so, yea go ahead. there's a book for that, lol

>>9664844
>>9664873

That's actually exactly what I was thinking. Not *safe*, per se, but a much more positive attitude about it than the traditional gloom-and-ugliness necromancer.

>>9664899

Well, if you're breaking tradition by having him be a Pretty Cool Guy of a lich, don't give him a malevolent sounding name. (Or maybe you do, and that's the only reason adventurers keep attacking - I mean, a dude called Obscenikar must be evil, right?)

He's probably ruled for a thousand years or more, so perhaps work that into his title? The Millenial King or something.

>>9664909

Oh god, not this fucker again. Guys, let's send him packing.

>>9664906
it delivers touch attacks... and the 1d6+5 is a WILL save of 10+1/5 lich lvl + Cha mod... so, yea

>>9664795
Obviously, if they don't want to, I find people who do.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who'll be willing to grant me their bodies once they've passed on to the afterlife in exchange for earthly tokens, power, money, a +2 sword, and so on.

>>9664818
I hadn't gotten so far as a name actually. Tell you what though, as far as running the city goes, I'd totally make it a republic. Let the living manage the affairs of that which is living; let the dead manage the affairs of that which is not living (or which won't be once it runs across the skeleton army). So obviously that includes the keeping of the peace from those who would threaten the city and the kingdom, though I assume if we have anyone in the army that is not undead, they are either spellcasters who serve a support role in keeping the skeletons going or they are human elites who are meant to engage other elites; why waste the lives of the living in conflict?

I imagine the lich is rather laid back and wouldn't be very particular about how he's addressed, perhaps taking a title of nobility for himself as he builds the kingdom up around the city of justice. Perhaps that city would be one he'd take a more active role in, assuming there are others, but I would not be surprised if he also elevated some to a privileged position under him as liches or lesser undead themselves to manage smaller parts of the kingdom. Of course in doing that he would have to be DAMN sure to keep them in line... hell, that could be a plot hook, 'sup, one of my subordinates decided to go batshit and is trying to raise his own army of skeletons, this ain't cool but I don't want to send mine at him because it'll freak out the people, y'all head down there and go Splinter Cell like Sam Fisher on his ass so everyone knows things can stay cool'.

>>9664899
>>9664901

Is this going to be a land of the dead or a land where the living and dead work together in perfect harmony, side by side on my piano?

If it's a kingdom of corpses, the lich would be king. If living and dead are unified, I don't think he should be absolute monarch - I think that would lead to the living being second class citizens - but perhaps his power is tempered by some sort of mortal council or senate, who speak for the living while the Lich speaks for the dead.

>>9664927
Epic paladins continuously emanate a positive energy aura.

Good luck trying to get into touch range.

The problem is that the morality of the Great Wheel cosmology has nothing to do with negative energy. Negative energy is a morally neutral force.

>>9664909
Dude. Dude, NO. Stop that. Chill, dude.

Look, quit smiting me, bro. I'm not evil, you're wasting your smites and that only stings a little, yo. Also it's 'your'.

All I wanna do is make everyone's life easier around here, 'cause I was born in this village before I left. Better living through magic and all. Tell you what, I tried golems, but everyone kind of freaked out 'cause the golems tended to be fugly, and it takes a hell of a lot out of you to make a golem. These guys? I decided to go this route when I resurrected the village elder something like two hundred years ago after he choked on a chicken bone and we talked a while, he wanted to keep helping the village after he was gone.

Best of both worlds, bro.

>>9664964

It could be a constitutional monarchy. The undead are property of the king, and the king signs off on the stuff parliament does, for the most part. In times of war they still have strong central leadership, but in times of peace the people get their say.

>>9664966
like i said, spectral hand DELIVERS touch attacks. that means it is a ranged touch attack. also, lich's aura of evil counters your aura of good... : /

>>9664795

NOBODY nobody, not going to happen. Too much social pressure to do the right thing.

>>9664817

Paladin falls. Not only is it lawful, it's societally correct and the prevalent more.

>>9664852

No, you're offering money on a condition. So contracts are evil now?

>>9664909

Again, paladin falls. He rushed to quick judgment. And the best part? He's just unlawfully attacked one of the city administrators, a high crime. He'll be lawfully tried, sentenced to death, and reanimated to protect the city.

>>9664966

Life Ward. Paladins can suck my dried-up lich balls.

>>9664947

I'm wondering about the role of the living in this society. Naturally the undead form the main bulk of the military, to protect lives. What do the living do? I see the undead being used as manual labour, heavy lifting, so perhaps there is much more opportunity for the living to turn to more skilled trades and scholarly pursuits (which would explain where all those necromancers keep coming from). Perhaps this city is renowned for its craftsmen, as it just has more artificers and such than anywhere else, meaning the good ones are really fuckin' good.

>>9664996
You and the elder might agree, but the villagers might not!

I will tour the village and ask the people how they feel of this.

Any skeletons that come near me will die, so I apologize about that in advance.

>>9664966
Ring of protection against positive energy.

>>9664964
I'm not sure if it would be quite side by side, but the undead who do repetitive (unskilled) labor rather than slaves would certainly give the area an economic boost while the morality of keeping sentient beings against their will ceases to be an issue. Skilled laborers still remain, of course; a skeleton cannot forge, and even if they are to build, they need someone intelligent to tell them what they are building, where to put everything, and so forth. When they are not doing such tasks, though, they're basically going to be out of sight and out of mind, and the propaganda would present them as the sentinels of the city. They are those who remain to to protect those of the living who cannot protect themselves.

>>9665044

Intelligent undead are a hassle, so the living probably do everything except the grunt labor - which means education and literacy are probably pretty high priorities. Essentially, the 'working poor' are replaced by undead, so everything else is filled by actual living people.

>>9665048

Uh-huh. Listen buddy, that's destruction of government property. I'm gonna have to take you in.

Well necromasy is about death, violating graves, enslaving souls, human sacrifice, summoning hordes of ded hungry for living flesh and erady to do anything to prolong your life and cheat death.
Only in silly games undead and necromantinc enchantmets are nice and clean, appear out of overe only from use of mana/ memorised spells, and then dissipates after some time without a trace.

Also good neromancer idea suck even more than of civilised orc. It ruins the style of necromancy...

>>9665048

>Any skeletons who come near me will die.

Bit late for that, chap. Unless you're counting ones still clothed in flesh and pulsing with blood? In which case, enjoy your fall.

>>9665054
>>9665065

I think this a good direction to go - stereotypically, an undead-heavy society sees death as a 'promotion', but here the dead do grunt work and other unpleasant jobs. There's probably a large part of the military that's actually still alive - the officers and colonels are probably still-living necromancers who haven't reached the General rank of lichdom yet.

>>9665048

Quite alright, you can't help what you don't intentionally do. We'll just order the workforce organizers to have the Sentinels steer clear of you.

>>9665044

Pretty much. Think Rome, but replace "slaves" and "underclass" with undead.

Uhhh guys... the least evil a lich can be is chaotic neutral, and i doubt a character of that alignment could run a city state like the one you are talking about.

>>9665044
Yeah. Exactly. They would probably heavily promote people to pursue skilled trades but see to it that the peoples' needs are met.

They could very well end up sending people out into the world to pursue their trades elsewhere, and oh by the way they're spreading the news about this shining city that was built by a lich who wants to do nothing but help the living and the bones of those who chose to let them keep helping the city even after death. Sure you'd get people poking around, but the lich isn't gonna be reclusive. If he's going to have high charisma and hella diplomacy he might stroll around sometimes waving at everybody and being friendly.

>>9665048
Dude, you need to chill the hell out. Go on, ask around, but you break it, you buy it, and I don't wanna have to exile you for being a dick.

>>9665102

Optimally, it would have some elite human units too; spellcasters and whatnot. Awesome to be throwing around Stinking Clouds when your foot soldiers are skeletons.

>>9665122

If he can be Chaotic Neutral, can he be Lawful Neutral? Because that would work. Even True Neutral would do in a pinch.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are Lawful Good lichs. I forget what they're called, though - they have a different name, but are essentially the same as lichs.

>>9665122
Alignment sucks, but players can change their alignment. Who's to say that our lich friend can't have a change of heart, and that's why he came back and started making things -right- once he had the time to reflect on it all?

>>9665081
"Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school"
manipulate life force sounds like healing as well, doesnt it?

The sombre sound of a bell rang out in the still air of the Great Hall. Seated upon the large, unadorned wooden throne sat an imposing figure – the ruler of the small kingdom known to outsiders as Arran’ak, the Millennia Emperor Myrhan. The carved wooden doors at the far end of the Hall opened slowly, pulled back by meticulously kept Royal Guards – in life, they were the best of the warriors of the kingdom, and in Undeath that fact had not changed. Clothed in well-made armour, with heavy axes or polearms they presented visitors with an abrupt reminder of the sheer, overwhelming might of the deceptively small kingdom.

Myrhan turned his unsettling golden gaze to the small contingent of ceremonial Handmaidens. His ever-grinning skull tilted down in a measure of respect, which was repeated by the white-clothed woman who mounted the steps.

>>9665122

Demiliches, Baelnorn, and templates, your argument is invalid.

>>9665140
I don't remember what they are offhand but yeah, they exist. They use positive energy instead. I suppose that's a possibility. Hell, if you end up with a positive energy lich he'll probably just animate undead, with positive energy versions. Paladin can't quite waltz up and go YOU HAVE HUGE BONES, CLEAVE AND SMITE anymore.

“Anyen, you are looking well.” His voice had a sepulchral quality, the finality of a closing coffin, the cold weight of the ages. He motioned for her to take the fine throne to his right, her customary seat – as Empress of the Dawn, she held equal – if not more – power as he. The bell rung thrice, signalling the start of the day.

“Ah, dear King. You are looking as … thin as always.” Her voice was quite unlike his. Soft and light, as warm as the summer she represented and as forgiving as the spring. Much of her was hidden from the world in a complex wrap of pure white linen cloth, which matched his simple black robe in its make. A gold chain wrapped her waist and her wrists, which flowed seamlessly into the silky silver wood of her throne.

Having discussed matters with several citizens, it seems they are content, if not happy to live here.

I did not sense anything controlling them, so their words must be sincere.

I apologize for my earlier outburst.

The dawn light filtered into the strangely beautiful Hall. Great bays of glass filled wide windows, beams of pale gold dancing across the grey flagstone floors. The carved onyx pillars depicted the life of the Kingdom, undead toiling the fields alongside their once-brethren. The living and the dead building and working in forges, woodcarving and herding. Great panels were for the depiction of major events; the ‘wedding’ of the Millennia Emperor and the Dawn Empress, the building of the Great Spire that housed the dead and living flying beasts. Great festivals were carved along tales of war, but the most dominate ones were that of peace and tranquillity.

A different bell chimed this time, the start of a new day in Court. The doors opened again, this time chained back to let the world in to the Hall. Soon it was filled with a chorus of voices, debating the fors and againsts of many an issue. All the while the stern gaze of the Emperor watched with the cold thoughts of the grave, and the Empress watched with all the warmth of a summer day.

Bad writefaggery is bad, /tg/. But this is what I saw :3

>>9665113

>Sentinels

That's a point; they probably have some sort of code-word for the dead workforces to make their role in the community sound noble and virtuous. If nothing else, it keeps people from freaking out when they see some rotting shambling mass of flesh come down the street wearing their father's face. "It's okay, Jimmy, daddy's a Sentinel now."

Or maybe the dead are made to wear masks to avoid emotional trauma?

>>9665162
>"You are looking as … thin as always."

I LOL'd. Thank you for that. Actually that could be a pretty fucking awesome setup, it sounds cool. I like it.

>>9665164

Quite alright. Now, have you obtained lodgings? Might I suggest the Rutting Boar? Most of our infrequent visitors prefer it. The staff is all living, so there's no chance you'll accidentally dust a maid.

>>9665140
>>9665122
There is a specific build in one of the books about a "Good Lich". one who is atoning for its sin of obtaining false life and killing millions for a goal that it now regrets. it gets the same stat bonuses and similar attacks, but it losses it aura but is still seen as evil no mater of its true alignment.

>>9665148

I'd imagine the royal guards are the intelligent sorts of undead, you could use bone creatures or corpse creatures from the BoVD or Skeletal Champions if you're using Pathfinder. These are the 'career men;' they've sworn oaths of loyalty to the king and the nation, and will fight past death to defend it, until their destruction.

>>9665196
I'd love to stay, but duty calls.

I feel like writing more, actually. How odd!

>>9665181
Yeah. I'd have them masked, certainly. Garb would be a little complicated if they're skeletons but something could surely be worked out.

I really REALLY don't think anyone's going to be stupid enough to send the freshly-reanimated out to do anything, though. They need to be cleaned and attired properly. In fact it's entirely possible that they might gild the skeletons so that they don't look so much like skeletons anyways, and are more appealing to the eye. Having skeletons shamble through the streets is not the best of plans, plus it's that much harder for any swingdick necromancer to waltz through with his skeletons, raise hell and blame it on you.

My Dm created a sept of good necromancer in our campaign, their motto is something like "for everyone who leaves, we keep guard" (it sounds better in italian)
Basically they use necromancy to
1) Question the deads
2) summoning good dead champions (normal undead are created unwillingly)
3) destroy the undead.

>>9665181

That was a part of the "code" I wrote up above. A common accoutrement of a Sentinel would be an ornate helm, both to decorate it and to hide the view of a loved one's rotting face. Everburning censers in the "barracks" would keep them smelling of perfumes (and not rot) and colorful ribbons, battle banners, and heraldry would cloak the rest of the body.

>>9665225

Not gilding, gold is expensive. Use brass, with ornaments pressed in on the skull and face to differentiate particular animates.

>>9665238
Good idea, I like that. When they're not out and about, they've got places they stay with censers that keep them smelling fresh, which handles any of them who still have flesh; those who do not probably have the smell permeated into their bones from being exposed to it so damned much.

The funeral ceremonies might be quite elaborate for those who choose to become sentinels, honestly. I just got this picture of the lich sitting in attendance and putting a ceremonial sentinel mask onto the body after everyone has said their farewells, before everyone leaves. (Obviously he's not going to reanimate it in front of them, though!)

>>9664041
Necromancy is just Wizard for HUMANITY, FUCK YEAH!

The one thing I worry about in a society like this is if the living become degenerate and lazy because they have others to do their hard work for them.

>>9665239
Never said they had to be gilded with gold, of course. Yes, brass probably would be ideal. And for that matter, the lich may be able to put some spell-like effects into it to ensure there are no problems with any of them should they be severed from his control. Fail-safes.

>>9665271
I was thinking about death-rites and things like that. Maybe each Empress is buried, not Risen, as a sign of respect and love. Hmm.

Hum. In WHRPG 2ed, In sylvania, ruled by a powerful necromancer (Manfred von carstein), there are lot of undead patrolling, and the peasant are ok with this. They call them "the guards". Cause despise being a ambitious douche with a oversized ego, Manfred is a pretty nice guy with his people.

>>9665286

Gilded means 'covered in gold.' Just throwing that out there, being a vocab nazi. As far as fail-safes go, those are expensive - you're already looking at however much onyx a pop, then throwing spells on top of that? Gets expensive. Better to just have a contingency or divination spell that tells you when someone wrests control of them then you teleport in and blow their ass up.

>>9665282
That is always a risk, unfortunately. But if the skeletons are handling many of the menial tasks around the city, they effectively have factories that will run 24/7. The city is going to be an economic powerhouse, which means they can afford at the VERY least to provide widespread literacy and to ensure that no one goes hungry. They'd promote skilled trades and crafts pretty hard and likely try to ensure there's some sort of social mobility. And promote the arts for that matter.

...what the hell did I just do, /tg/? Is this going to be a skeleton-powered Renaissance?

>>9663834
necromancy (nek'rɘman'sē) n. foretelling of the future by communicating with the dead. 1550, alteration of Middle English nigromaunce (probably before 1300, in Kyng Alisaunder); also about 1303 nygromauncy; borrowed from Old French nigramancie, nigremance, and directly from Medieval Latin nigromantia, from Late Latin necromantia divination from an exumed corpse, from Greek nekromanteíā (nekrós dead body + manteíā divination, oracle, from manteúesthai to prophecy, from mántis prophet; see MANTIS)

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To make good Liches look in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting
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>>9665372
hey, what are you using for that definition?

>>9665271

Also, I envision a marked difference between Sentinels and Conscripts (the bodies of fallen enemies and criminals). Conscripts would be unadorned, and thusly kept with the army (and out of the city) at all times. They would be shock troops and cannon fodder, sent in as the pointy end of the spear until unfit to serve. They would then be de-animated, properly interred, and their remains sanctified so that no one else could use them for more nefarious purposes.

>>9665398
Yeah. Serving the people is a privilege, not a right; only sentinels should be permitted to do so. Conscripts did not earn that privilege.

Either way, I imagine they're very very picky about how any remains are interred...

>>9665340

Hopefully. It could be like the Switzerland of its continent; small, wealthy, highly educated, and super rich. The living members are highly educated and often wizards, and they can maintain a sizable army despite their small size (let's say only one major city, some outlying farms and such) if anyone tries to dick with them.

As far as the history of this place goes, I was thinking it might be more interesting to have it be relatively new - no more than 2 generations old, perhaps? As for it's origin story, perhaps it used to be a small city-state ruled fairly benevolently by its royal family, until one day it gets usurped and the royal family murdered, except for one son of the noble family who was away at university in some other country studying magic, who had just completed his phylactery. He gets 'killed,' comes back to his home city, and takes back his country by force. Since he's not exactly a control freak or really that into ruling (he likes studying magic) he sets up a parliament and relegates most of the governmental duties to them, meanwhile using his consummate magical skill to make things better for his country. In those 2 generations he's probably fought 2 or 3 major wars against his neighbors, but things probably went like israel against its neighbors.

Gentle Repose was here, making your undead public servants not smell like rotten butts.

>>9665434
That's a pretty sweet backstory. I'm all for it. And if the place was trashed in the coup, he'd have done his damnedest to build it back up better than it was before. Having all the legitimacy he would need to do it doesn't hurt a thing, either.

>>9665474
Well sure but what about permanence for it?

>>9665432

Yeah, I'm guessing a mausoleum fit to be a 40k cathedral. Probably built out of an entire mountain, everyone more noteworthy than the local cheese vendor gets an ornate ossuary, and the whole joint's warded better than a princess's chastity belt.

>>9665434
> but things probably went like israel against its neighbors.

Especially once they get to slogging against an enemy that never tires, never sleeps, and has no logistics train to speak of.

>>9665282

I see there being a very strong work ethic in this culture, actually. After all, you have all these walking reminders of "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" or whatever, about the place. You know that even the dead still serve, so what's your excuse?

I see it more being that physical labour is seen as something for the Sentinels and intellectual or skilled pursuits are for the living.

Also, I had an idea. What if the people call the lich ruler The Grandfather? Not as his official title, but what the man on the street refers to him as. I can see family being very important in this culture and he probably IS an ancient ancestor of 90% of the populace.

>>9665501

Pretty much. Now their neighbors are doing a lot of saber-rattling but are weighing their options for actually winning... and probably trying to find someone bad enough to take out the Lich King.

>>9665500
In the spellbook of course. Fuck, I'm gonna have to steal this for my setting.

>>9665501
Sure, the enemy can get early victories. But what good will that do when the eternal army absorbs enemy losses anywhere they can gain a toehold, turning them into conscripts to fight for the kingdom? What do you do with an enemy that never stops, never gets tired, and does not even need to do so much as live off the land in order to continue their combat?

Once the enemy engages in a battle with the eternal army, they are locked into it until one side or the other has been completely wiped out. And even if the eternal army's warriors in that battle are defeated, you'd better haul off your dead.

So /tg/, here's some more!

The sun shone brightly down upon the funeral procession. It curled halfway through the city, starting from the Great Hall and ended at the Spire. It was a funeral procession that happened once a generation; a Dawn Empress had passed away of old age. The city, and indeed, the entire country went into mourning. Dark greys and stark white clothing was donned in reverence, and the towns and hamlets were silent. Even the Sentinels had stopped for the day, ranking up into rows in specific areas and standing to attention, facing the great city and the towering Spire.

There was a great throng of people lining the streets of Ran’ak, the capital where the Emperor and Empress ruled, and the open coffin that held the Empress in the Everlasting Sleep was slowly carried along the great road. The people were openly weeping, throwing white and black lilies onto the road to be trod on by the Handmaidens that bore the weight of their ruler. Leading the party was the Millennia Emperor, clothing in mourning white, head bowed and hands clasped before him. He intoned the words of the Empress’ Requiem, words ancient and barely understood by the populace.

so, on the whole pali vs lich thing...
DRACOLICH BITCHES

The procession ended once it reached the Spire, the crowd gone silent, the only sound the quiet crying of the Empress’ Handmaidens. Myrhan led the Handmaidens into the Tower, and the city waited as the last of the Rites were done.

Inside, the Millennia Emperor commanded the Handmaidens to deposit the Empress upon the Chronic Altar. Once that was done each took their appointed moment to say their part of the Rite, bow to the Emperor and their Empress, and leave. It did not take long, but each moment was like the strike of a hammer. The lich waited until the women were gone, and then slowly sat by the Altar. For a skeleton that did not show any emotion he radiated sadness and a weary sense of defeat. He spoke at length in a dead tongue, regaling the walls and roof of the Empress and her life, her deeds and her death. In a way, this was his goodbye, a final writing into his ageless memory of the woman that once was and never would be again, until the next Empress was presented, or found, or born, or a million other things.

>>9665432

What are we thinking about cremation? Is it a reward ("you've done your duty and more; go now and rest beyond") or a punishment ("for your sins, you shall be forgotten. None shall ever see your face again")? Is it something that a particularly wealthy family can "buy" for their dead to avoid being dragged up and put to work in the fields? Or is it a crime, trying to get out of your death-duty?

AND THE LAST OF THIS BIT, FFFF flood detection I HATE YOU

It took him some hours, and it was dusk by the time he interred her into the Tomb that was her rite. Protected by magic and by the Chronus Legion, she would be forever safe from the outside ravages of time. He threw open the great stone doors of the Spire and left, letting the mourning of his country sink into the stone. It was his peoples right, and it was his own selfish want to give her a burial that was given to none other. Such was her right.

>>9665550
Dracoliches were such a steaming pile of fail in 3e, so much weaker than a regular dragon.

>>9665512

Well, I was going with the idea that the nation is a fairly recent establishment. Wouldn't be a terrible nickname for him, though.

As far as the behaviors of the citizens go, you could have a bit of a generational gap - the older citizens, while still creeped out a bit by undead, are grateful to the Lich King for what he's done for them, plus for those who have that patriotic urge he's the rightful king, dammit. The younger generation, used to easy access to education and lack of physical hardship, has a growing minority who really haven't taken the lessons of their parents to heart, and there's a growing body of young arcane students up to no good with necromancy - hey, the king does it, it must be okay, right?

>>9665102
>Bit late for that, chap. Unless you're counting ones still clothed in flesh and pulsing with blood? In which case, enjoy your fall.


You know thats actually a type of skeleton now, right? Fleshwalker, or something like that.
Creeped the -Fuck- out of my players when those zombies they were fighting sloughed off their skins :D

>>9665564
I think cremation would be a punishment reserved for the worst of the worst. No one is press-ganged into being a sentinel (even after death) and they take the sanctity of life and death very seriously. If someone declines the offer to be a sentinel, that decision is respected and they are given a proper interment, as stated above, so there are really no worries about someone being taken from the grave to work in a field somewhere or anything.

>>9665569
but...its a dragon. that is a lich. better than a humanoid paladin, thats all im sayin

>>9665564

Nonintelligent undead have their soul go to the afterlife, so it's neither a reward nor a penalty, it seems to me. For the royal guard, it's an honor - but also a serious obligation. They pledge themselves to the Lich King for eternity.

>>9665604

Honestly it might be law that the corpse belongs to king and country after death. Nothing wrong with it, as long as the people don't resent it.

>>9665587
Speaking of cremation... necromancers who used their abilities for their own selfish purposes and refused to recant their deeds would be prime candidates. Then again, necromancers who wished to do something constructive would very likely be welcomed!

>>9665604

If the establishment of the lich nation is a recent thing, there might be a dissident movement that cremate their dead to prevent them being 'defiled' with unlife.

But yeah, I like the idea that a peaceful burial is a reward, cremation a punishment and the default being "get back to work".

>>9665605
Silver dragon, bitch.

What now?

>>9665564

Actually, I'd see it as taboo. To inter a body is fine; in a case of extreme need, your living relatives can offer you into service. Even criminals are put to use. But to willfully destroy the remains of another, it would be equivalent to saying, "Even in death you are worth less than nothing." Unthinkable.

>>9665632

Anyone remember LaShonna?

>Why aren't there any good necromancers?

countless of them in WHFRP 1st Ed as well as the decent score in other settings and systems (I even on occation play one in WHFRP).

Does /tg/ want any other lich writefaggery before I lurk moar?

>>9665632
not a paladin, doesn't count

>>9665642
Hmm. Well, if you feel up to it. But you've made my night already with it all, dude. Thanks for all of that.

>>9665611

True, but most burial rites are gestures for the living anyway. The act of cremation might be a way of saying "if you do what this guy did then fuck you, you don't deserve to help us, even on our worst day" or, if it's a reward it says "this guy is such a bro that we'd feel bad having to call on him for aid ever again, so he can rest in peace - be like him". But yeah, I agree that it's a bad thing to cremate in this society.

>>9665659
Yeah. Either way it would be recognized that the person has moved on, but they have left their body behind to serve the state, like you said; someone who's being cremated is seen as having done something so vile that even in death they are worth less than nothing.

Better: cremation is just banned outright. Those who have done something vile enough to get the ire of everyone doesn't end up cremated... they are flayed and their bones shattered so that they cannot be reanimated, and scattered to the winds to serve as an example for others who would commit such heinous deeds.

>>9665642

More writefaggotry is always welcome.

So what does /tg/ want? :o I'm willing to write more if /tg/ can prompt me with something.

>>9665659
>or, if it's a reward it says "this guy is such a bro that we'd feel bad having to call on him for aid ever again, so he can rest in peace - be like him"

But that's the kind of guy you want in your mausoleum. You point to the effigy carved into his ossuary and say, "See that guy? In life, he was one of the King's most stalwart generals, before one of Talgrim's foul assassins laid him low. But he was raised again as one of the greatest of the Sentinels, and he personally held the van for eight hours at the Battle of Longfields, finally crushing the Talgrimite foe."

>>9665709

Possible. What if a truly heinous criminal has their head cut off, the body disposed of and the head fully reanimated? The head is fully aware and necromantically preserved to be aware for the rest of eternity, unable to even scream.

>>9665717

How about relations between Zombieland and another kingdom? A living emissary sent into the land of the dead as the POV character

>>9665728
Meh. Little too morbid. The lich isn't going for a rule by fear here, and if the shit hits the fan he doesn't want any undead (excluding conscripts, maybe) to be able to speak ill of him.

>>9665740
That ... that I could do. Brb with more writefaggery.

>>9665740
Fuck yeah, that sounds sweet. I'd love to hear about that.

>>9665747

Bear in mind these guys probably don't see it as morbid. They're drenched in death every day and night. And this probably wouldn't even be something that happens often - it's war criminal territory. But if it's meh, it's meh. Fair enough.

>>9665768
Yeah, but it would be a little fucked up if we had Hitler's head going D: for eternity.

>>9665781

Yeah, I just sort of liked the idea that one of the Grandfather's secrets was he keeps the un-living heads of his greatest vanquished foes in his palace to serve as a sort of secret council, who think the unthinkable for him, but also try to undermine him.

... am I missing something or does the sup/tg/ archiver no longer have a place to submit threads anymore?

>>9665842

Near the bottom of the page is the button to get to the request interface. I'm on it right now.

>>9665877
Thank you. I looked but I was unable to find it. Strange.

Took me a while but here it is.
Day 1;

Today is the first day of my travel into Arran’ak, “Land of the Dead” or so they say. We have had tepid relationships in the past with this small kingdom, yet my Liege has requested we foster a greater relationship. We are already on the road, and I suspect it won’t be long before we reach country borders.

Day 6;

#messily scratched out words# What was first seen as an attack by undead forces has turned into an honor guard. We are at the border of Arran’ak and my own kingdom, glorious Sejruh, and have been met with a small contingent of “Sentinels”, the fighting force of Arran’ak. They are as cordial as a corpse can be, and they don’t stink. I am thankful.

Day 10;

We are now in Arran’ak proper, and our Sentinel guards have been replaced with a living version. They are still known as Sentinels, this may require some inquiry. In any case, we are being well provided for. There is great show of wealth and learning in the hamlets and towns we have gone through, and we are welcomed warmly by the populace. It seems the dead are used as workforce and soldiers, though there have been references of … reverent dead? I am not sure, the words they use are strange.

Day 13;

We are not far from the capital, I can see the object known as the Spire from where we are camping tonight. From here it is impressive. This expedition is revealing much about the life of this kingdom. I would not be amiss saying it is a peaceful place, though there is no doubt that they would be able to fend off another army.

Day 20;

SO MUCH HAS HAPPENED! We were welcomed with a festival to the capital, even though the city seems to be going through mourning. When questioned, the townsfolk and the guards are forthcoming of the reason, their Dawn Empress (female ruler ???) has died, and it is the customary period of a weeks mourning for the Empress. I understand that it is one day away from the Festival of the Dawn, which is only ever held after this period of mourning. This will be a sight to see.

Day 25;

Met with the Millennia Emperor. I was expecting an aged man holding the title, not a Lich; yet out host was quite friendly and answered our questions without hesitation. He also asked about our country, and more strangely, the laws we have. After asking him (her? Unknown) about this, I was informed that he is only one half of the ruling body, the other being the Empress, and that laws were a hobby of his. Trade talks begin tomorrow.

Day 27;

We have come to an agreement; trade will begin within one month’s time. We have gotten a fair deal in entering this agreement, but for everything they gave they expected equal. I do not doubt this is a good thing, everything I have seen is of the highest quality. Our kingdom will prosper well with this trade.

Enclosed is the full agreement, Sire, for your perusal at a later date. Do note, that while they use the dead as a sort of commodity they have never once asked for ours. When I enquired I was simply told that the Arran’akian people considered it an honour to be raised, or a necessity, and that they had no want to impose their way upon others. Please step carefully about this subject. The Millennia King will be sending an emissary within the year, and I propose we welcome his contingent as they have greeted ours.

Faithfully your servant;
#Blotched writing, apparently a name#

Tadaa. I had fun doing this.

>>9663834
where is the OP pic from? looks kinda like jojo's bizzare adventure... sauce?

>>9665918
Awesome. Thanks, man. And thanks for making this thread into something awesome. Have a good night.

>>9665925
It is JJBA, from the second arc.

>>9665918

Well done! My writefaggotry gets waaaaaay too wordy.

>>9665953
Not a problem, glad it was enjoyed. Felt good to do writing for something other than study, man~

ANd I was suprised how much I wanted to write. Apparently Liches are awesome material.

>>9665980

Especially when they're not being total cuntbags and punting kittens for the fuck of it.

>>9663977
>>9664056

Beat me to it by a mile...

>>9664052

A common misconception - it is okay to heal, so long as it promotes killing - hence you may heal and even resurrect adventurers, but not commoners.
However, necromancy doesn't truly promote further killing so much as negate killing and thus is a sin - which can only be atoned for by being kill by demons/adventurers.

##

My own perspective on healing magic being granted by the gods is that because "old age" can't be undone by Good Magics (TM) it's actually a semi-trick - the heals and rezzes are to promote the creation of more powerful adventurers, who then die and become far more useful souls for the Gods to make Solars out of. It's only a semi-trick because it still helps the adventurers, it's just that the gods aren't open about their real motives.

>>9664093

Hmmm... elegantly poor spelling and punctuation, text speak used sparingly, melee and evocation promotion...

You sir, are a fabulous example of a War-Troll.

>>9664205

However, the last sentence of this is too revealing - as was the melee/evocation talk before and it may behoove you to be even more subtle in future. Still a fine example of the dark art.

>>9664239

Well it strikes *me* as mandatory.

Did this once myself.

To be a Citizen, one must donate their body to the state. The state is run by wizards and lich's, in the pursuit of Necromechanical science. All primary industries are supported by Undead workers. This frees up people for higher education pursuits. Alot of them become state sponsored necromancers and enter politics or the bureaucracy.

Military Forces are purely undead. Labour is purely undead. No one need to cry about their son going away to war unless they are dead.

Medicine is highly advanced. Imagine how fast ours would have advanced if they could make a cadaver go through a debug cycle, and restart various organs to see how they broke, and test replacements and such.

All of this, one caveat, you repay the state with your unlife for as long as you lived, and your body can be called into military service at any time.

I was in a D&D Campaing where our party, mostly Neutral alingment, stumbled on village entirely based on necromancy.

However, it wasn't GRIMDARKIAN place but rather well collected society. The raised had good life, skeletons plowed the fields and herded the lifestock around while zombies did the heavy lifting for the living.

Long story short, the village was founded by a grand necromancer who achieved lich hood and had children, which is to say she had 7 year old grand-grand-grand daughter efficient at necromancy.

>>9666066

So, they serve as a corpse for as long as they've been alive? That strikes me as a bad idea, since the bodies in best condition would serve for the shortest terms.

>>9666107

Well, they can be turned into skeletons or boneguards for even more effiency.

They don't have to be fleshy undead.

>>9666107
Yeah true, btthat is fixed, i believe by two points.

1. The best samples dont get used for labour, but for science. and how long does a good corpse last for science anyway?

2. It helps the "citizenship" feel. you get out what you put in. And they can always be pulled back out of storage for military purposes.

>>9666134

The skeleton of an eighty-year old might have arthritis and even if it doesn't it would still have gone through more wear-and-tear than the skeleton of a twenty year old.

>>9666134

Still, are you going to want that strapping young lad of 18 who died of an unfortunate accident mustering out in under two decades, while the osteoporitic remains of his aged grandmother toil on for seventy years, assuming they last that long? Doesn't quite seem fair.

>>9666160

Also, what about the non-citizens who choose not to have their remains used? What sanctions or penalties do they suffer?

>>9666176

Besides, with negative energy and/or mineral fusing they shouldn't have any problems.

Bones coated and/or dipped with iron or similiar metals sould make it more durable.

>>9666192
Ah, well they are only allowed to travel through the country. Many who wish to live in the land without a business or travel permit, wake up in their bed outside of the border. They border with some very not nice countries.

I am a common man - a schoolteacher. I am fifty-four years old, and facing the last years of my life.

When I die, they will place my body in the deadhouse for a year and a day - there, my friends and family can say their goodbyes, in their own time. There will be time aplenty for my soul to leave the flesh behind, and go to its final resting place. (Or, as some believe, to find rebirth - I am unsure, but I lean toward the former.) The initiates, those who aspire to make the ultimate sacrifice, will look after my bones, alongside those of my brethren and sistren.

When that year and day have passed, my bones will be laid before one of the Sacrificed - perhaps even before the First King himself - adorned with the vestments of the risen. I will be judged, then, and perhaps - or so I hope - chosen to serve among the Sentinel, to defend this city, rather than as a mere Risen, to labour in the fields and workshops: But I am not a tall man, nor heavily built, so I doubt it. Nonetheless, this mortal shell will continue to aid those I love and respect.

I welcome death.

Eon necromancy was here, necromancers mostly "go evil" because of social stigmata, not through the "corrupting influence of the dark arts", except if you make deals with "the pit", which is basically a maelstrom of death in the nether planes, then you're probably a bad, bad man. Necromancy does, however, have the sad side-effect of giving the user av pretty weird image of corpses, seeing them as raw materials instead of a former living person, but that could happen to people in real life too.

There has even been a necrocracy in the past; undead stood for military numbers, heavy labour and basic construction, the only problem was that the rulers were dicks (partially due to the aforementioned corpse-thinking), and most people don't like the idea of their loved ones walking about without recognising them, so eventually it fell apart, but it was a long runner.

>>9666211

Naturally, if one is an ambassador or someone of similiar status can request their body transferred or certain burtial rites done at time of death.

I don't see necromancy based society any different from other nations, other than with death sentences the fate is indeed worse than death in the long run.

What the. I go home from work and this is what happens?

No. While you may need to give your unlife for certain privileges that would come with citizenship, being able to donate your body is supposed to be largely considered an honor. We're not going to start deporting anybody who doesn't want to donate themselves. Personal freedoms are taken very seriously here.

>>9666251
>other than with death sentences the fate is indeed worse than death in the long run.

The death sentence would be pointless. Better to sentence them to decades of labor, especially those labors that the undead simply can't do. Get the most out of them in life, and then use them in death.

>>9666239

Why corpses are so bad? Seriously, undead are basically vessels of negative energy similiar to low elementals of their own planes.

Sure they might not be made out of pure negative energy, but they still respresent it.

>>9666268
Precisely. The lich, the millenia emperor, cares about what's best for his people. Including in cases of justice. There is no justice in shackling someone to the material plane when he knows full well they'll be judged after they die, anyway.

>>9666268

What would be painful execution, raising through nercomancy then given some sort awareness as they "live" with their regret till infinity as a ragged corpse sound?

I am an initiate. Day in and day out, I welcome the newly dead, and care for their remains in the deadhouse. In the evenings, I attend my lessons, to learn the art of Necromancy - it is a privilege, yet I sometimes question my choice.

Should I learn enough, before my time comes, I may advance from Initiate to Adept, dressing the dead, and from Adept to Master, assisting the Sacrificed. I will then, once my time approaches, have the opportunity, the duty, even, to make the sacrifice. To never again enter the deadhouse, but to bind my soul into my flesh, to remain there forever - to never leave this life, never find rest, eternally serve this nation. There will be no rest for my soul, no afterlife, no reincarnation - I will sacrifice all of this. When my bones are ground to dust through ages of servitude, what remains - my soul - will sit on the silent council, advising the rulers of this land --

forever.

My point:
1:wizards mostly learn their magic at a magic school
2:Magic school are about as official as they can be
3Since they are official, the local government must approve them
4:Most wizards know Necromancy spells
Conclusion: The government supports the teaching of necromancy

>>9666236
>>9666291
And here you guys go making this thread a little more awesome with every post. /tg/, you rock.

>>9666286
Feels bad, man.

Seriously though, that got shot down earlier in the thread. It's not terribly ethical and the lich doesn't want this sort of thing to inspire fear in the population. He does not want to rule by the peoples' fear, but by their admiration and respect.

>>9666286

Again, too much undeath-as-punishment. For the most part, undeath should be a positive thing, a service you provide to the community. When you can no longer offer your heart and soul, you offer what remains of your flesh.

>>9666291
>>9666236
This is how I thought the populace would think. I didn't think much about the teaching/honor of necromancy, but that's a really nice thing to think about. Hmm. I could do a little more writing, but the thoughts aren't fully formed :< SAD.

>>9666326

Well, there HAS to be some sort of motivation of people following the law and preventing unsanctioned necromancy.

Spreading out a necromancer gone AWOL as a zombie on the castle walls, howling for couple days out or pain until vocal chords are torn out with rusty pliers so neibors wouldn't complain.

>>9666330

The punchline was eternal torture or at least, extented.

>>9666364
I imagine the Millennia Emperor taking the AWOL necromancers into a room to have a little ...chat.

The necromancer never comes out, of course. The Millennia Emperor takes a very harsh view on people using the dead for unhonorable/etc things.

I am a criminal. I know this, but looking back, there is nothing I would have done differently.

She was to be my wife - I love her, more than I love anything or anyone else, even now - but our love... was not to be. Disease claimed her, claimed the love of my live, and in doing so, it also claimed my heart. I could not let her go. In the deadhouse, I sat at her side, watched her flesh sag, her bones appear, as the days turned into months, and eventually, the full year - yet my love was not diminished - rather the opposite. When she went to her Rising, I followed. I watched it, and when she - the Risen who was her - moved once more, I could not contain myself.

Mother, father, I am sorry, but... it was the only thing I could do.

>>9666364
That's the sort of offense that would justify the destruction of their remains. You don't have to make an example of them by making their suffering public, just make it known that they will suffer.

Being chosen to serve as a Risen or a Sentinel is an honor. Conversely, your remains being destroyed as an example to ensure that you will not serve the state even in the lowliest capacity after death... shattering their bones and scattering them shows that you are so worthless and worth absolutely no respect even in death.

>>9664624

Could expand on this by having a living guard section that can get extra pay if they give permission to become undead after they die.

>>9666364
>following the law

There would still be the traditional deterrents. Jail, fines, loss of property, loss of rights, corporal punishment, work duty, and the like.

>unsanctioned necromancy

Yeaahhh, that might be the one time that the ultimate punishment of cremation is invoked.

Come to think of it... it would be difficult for a rogue necromancer to do an awful lot, wouldn't it? The bodies of those who have died are left for a year and a day for their loved ones to pay their respects, and surely the buildings that those are in are warded against magic. The Risen are themselves warded (if weakly) to keep amateurs from playing around with them, and to alert the Millennial Emperor to the fact that someone is playing with things that don't belong to them. Any remains that are not in the service of the empire are buried in the spire which is a hallowed place, and guarded for that matter.

Honestly, the only thing they're going to be able to reanimate are animals.

>>9666451
Considering the fact the upper tiers of the Spire house lookouts/ alive and undead flying beasts would further limit rogue necromancers. :3

>>9666451

You underestimate the ambition of man, they would go to any lengths to get hold in the line for power.

Besides, physical necromancy isn't the only way to do it. One could raise wraiths, ghosts or poltergeists.

>>9663830
Ｈ ａ ｖ e ｙ O Ｕ ｈ E Ａ R Ｄ ｔ Ｈ Ｅ Ｎ Ｅ W Ｓ ? Ｔ i Ｎ Y C h A Ｎ ｉ ｓ ａ ｎ i l L E Ｇ A L C ｌ O ｎ e ｏ F A Ｎ o n Ｔ Ａ L k B ｂ s H T t Ｐ : / / 8 8 . 8 0 . 2 1 . 1 2 /

>>9666477
I had not considered intangible undead. What would the Millennia Emperor think of that? :o

>>9666477

There's really no reason to be a necromancer within the bounds of that kingdom. Better to just move elsewhere.

>>9666489

Same as other undead, controller incorporeal undead can cause as much economical harm as living could.

Such as rising a poltergeist to haunt in a already collapse verge gold mine wouldn't be a pretty sight.

>>9666429
Well, we kind of got past that, but the honor guard of the lich are still themselves even if they are now undead. It is one of the ultimate sacrifices that can be made. Sanctioned necromancers exist as acolytes, tending to the Risen and helping keep society running in that regard, but I'm sure there are others that are in use in various ways.

This is a place where both death and life are treated with the utmost respect, and it's kind of expected for people to allow their remains to be used for this. Of course, all considered, there are probably plenty of remains preserved and going unused as I doubt the attrition rate of the Risen is very high.

>>9666508

You are likely to be hunt down by opposing factions outside the nation even off the wartime and lack of resources.

Incorporeal undead... I had not considered that.

However, the unwritten policy is that while your mind and soul are yours alone, your body belongs to the state. I don't think sanctioned necromancy in the state would involve incorporeals as they tend to involve the spirit of the deceased. All they're interested in is the body, and they are happy to let the souls travel on to their reward.

>>9666518

And of course, higher echelons IE Demi-liches or Millenia Emperor would require higher sustenance, which would be souls but of course, this could be set amount only during set amount of years, not daily Emprah esque psyker feeding.

For example, offering ones own sould would get monetary or other benefits for the relatives or family members of the voluntaree.

>>9666562

Considering the nature of necromantic society, some souls might stay on the plane to give counsel to whomever they wish and give them interesting insight to necromancer from the dead planes.

Sort of traditional eastern Ancestor worshipping.

One other thing that occurs to me. With undead doing their work (and the high likelihood of donations in the name of the Risen to the state itself) I imagine that the economy is pretty damn good.

I imagine that it is not only extremely important to keep the Risen well maintained but also to keep the people happy to keep the Risen coming along.

It would be a worthy investment to have a stockpile of diamonds somewhere so that the clerics and necromancers can raise dead who have died in accidents and by violent means. Not to mention that this makes the peacekeepers' lives easier -- they can identify who killed somebody, and the person who died isn't likely to move on altogether too quickly because they know they'll likely be brought back.

I think that's all a pretty fair trade for a near limitless army of undead from your citizens. Don't you guys?

>>9666603
Ha! Yeah, all considered, that does sound like a pretty damn good possibility! That just adds more flavor to it all, and perhaps a reason for Adepts to utilize incorporeal undead. If they want to stick around a little while longer... why object? Let them. I imagine there's plenty they can do. Just so long as things are kept regulated and the Adepts are sanctioned.

>>9666630

Undead even more so that are aware, such are wraiths are scrictly sanctioned and protected at the same time.

Such as forcefully raising a ghost might take notable ability, but the bondage the spirit is forced through is unthinkable so the process has to be entirely voluntary to make the process pleasurable as possible.

I would imagine recently raised wraith shouting "It feels good to be back again!"

HI GUYS I HAVE SOME MORE STUFF

The body of the deceased is to be preserved for a year and a day. Family, friends, any who wish to pay respects, are permitted to the deceased resting camber to send farewells, well wishes, or just to remember the life of the deceased. This is a time of mourning and acceptance. Chambers are to be cleansed daily with a censer of Forget-Me-Not smoke. Should the body show the onset of over decay, immediate prevention is to take place as to halt the unseemly destruction of the loved family member or friend.

Once the period of a year and a day has ended, the body is to be treated with the required salves and wrappings, charms are to be placed inside the body, and the Rites of Rising are to be said over the deceased. A week-long period of vigil is to be kept by an Adept appointed to the body. This is to allow the spirit a period of grace to settle into the afterlife, and to not be disturbed by the earthly workings of magic. Initiates are to cleanse the preparation chamber daily.

Once the vigil has ended, the body is to be unwrapped and prepared. If the deceased is to be a Risen, the body shall be heavily preserved. If the case (or by request of the state) warrants the removal of flesh, all flesh shall be removed without delay and to be interred in a place of the family’s choosing. Otherwise, the treatment of the flesh to strengthen it in undeath will commence, and will last a month.

If the body is become a Sentinel, the proper honors shall be observed. The body is to be allowed another month of Vigil, to show proper respect of one deserving of such an honour. A Sacrificed will commence with the proper reverential treatment. The flesh is to be preserved and retained, strengthened with the proper magic and reinforced with the sacred charms. They are to be clothed in armor that befits their station.

One preparation is completed; all those bodies that have completed the Rites are to be gathered in the Spire’s courtyard. Family and friends of each body are welcomed, but not necessary. A group of no less than five Sacrificed will complete the ritual, and the Rites of Rising are repeated.

Then the Risen are sent to whichever section needs them, or if a special request has been handed in by the family, to that family’s workshop or land force to work. All names of the deceased will now be entered into the Grand Tomes.

And that's the last bit of that one. Feels awesome to get more out.

>>9666662
Absolutely. That's the whole idea here -- a place where undeath is not considered anathema, but a part of life and the whole cycle. If someone wishes to stick around after death... well, why argue? You've got plenty of adepts and the like who can make it happen. Just... certain kinds like vampires, mummies and zombies aren't acceptable either because the processes used to create them are simply not available in that culture, or they are seen as hostile types of undead and they don't want to desecrate peoples' bodies by turning them into such things. Even in this culture, some kinds of undead are beyond the pale.

Currently building one based off Franken Fran-esq experimentation and Gauldoth Half-Dead from HoMM 4 (Shit game, Rokkin' Undead campaign) who's ended up as a Nihlistic 'The universe doesn't care if you live or die excape when you are part of its great plan. Creation and destruction can both be used for good and evil' style guy.
He's awesome to play.

basic advanced society requires some sort of competitive advantage from property (physical or intellectual) it can exploit to get started.
this fledgling town would have to be either rich farmland, center of commerce (river, trade route), or rich in minerals. this is part of your backstory.
over time, the undead themselves become the exploited capital, along with intellectual capacity of the living. master tradesmen sounds wonderful. rows upon rows of tinkerers, craftsmen and wizards expanding the arts. to reach this society though, I'd expect this town to have started as a trade hub. agrarian and mining communities I'd wager are too "blue collar" to shift to education over just a few generations.
the biggest threat to your story is within the first generations of Grand-daddy showing up. both internal and external factions would react negatively. he'd need a strong PR campaign (which you touched on) or they'd need to make a faustian pact (in their mind). perhaps the town is constantly raided/at war, and granpa shows up to kick ass? after a generation or two of warfare, the living don't remember a time without granpa. just ideas.
from there granpa begins to socially engineer his people into educational pursuits, re-connecting them with their multicultural trade-town roots in the process. develops stories of "hero traders" he knew in the past, picking common surnames as his exemplar citizens.

I wondered what kept this lich going, what would keep his interest for generations, then centuries, but I can see global domination through peaceful means and social engineering as being a very interesting and equally challenging pursuit. also a bit evil by standard definition, but then again, if everyone's happy who cares?

Overall I like it, your Grandfather is what every conspiracy theorist thinks the Illuminati is, minus all the drawbacks of being an organization of mortals.

>>9666725

>>9666725

Vampires are often created through freak accidents in necromancy, so anyone who might suffer such fate gets similiar treatment to someone as severly disabled.

Since their bloodlust, they can't really participate in daily society with the mortal world so they can choose to live in seclusion and study if they wish, considering that vampires are sort of one-in-a-million and aren't allowed to spread their curse for their own and everyones safety. They will be provided sustenance to keep them alive, in return that they continue to serve the society at least indirectly working as scholars or lorekeepers of the society, since they are most aware of the undead and have ungodly long memories.

Mummies are just like zombies however, far more crispier and "working stiff".

Game I ran, 'twas not inherently evil. Because, look at it this way: Glut someone on too much positive energy will kill them just as hard as negative energy.

>>9664839
I remember that; despite the fact that Heroes IV was a total shit game, at least its storyline was an improvement over the other games' standard "bad guys invade, good guys form alliance to push them back, necromancers make a final push for power"
I've always thought it's entirely possible for a good or neutral necromancer to exist. Rather than nation where necromancy is accepted, however, I figure something like Frankenstein is more likely: a lone necromancer who raises the dead to learn from them or to help him in his old age, or even simply as company.

honestly I'd move to this town irl. you have to be realistic though, there will always be malcontents and leechers.
is this society so collectively driven that punishment and/or rehabilitation allowed? or is individualism praised so that the free flow of ideas is nourished.

and by rehab, I guess reanimation is technically rehab for the lazy.

>>9666925
I think that it wouldn't really matter unless you did some truly horrible fuckups, like killed a bloke or something. I'd think there would still be currency, so a job would be needed to buy things like food, etc. I doubt everything would be free, but I think it'd be cheap, due to the undead-driven labor force.

Not sure, though. Maybe the lazies are just given less privileges?

Abomination: Creations of an unsanctioned necromancer and certain types of undead that sanctioned necromancers are instructed never to create. Destroyed immediately unless a soul is bound to it.
Conscript: Enemy soldiers and criminals who are used as the eternal army's footsoldiers.
Risen: Term for all undead who have been brought into the service of the state. Generally used as unskilled laborers.
Sentinel: Ever-watchful guardians, they are strengthened and used for the keeping of the peace, and in times of war are the formidible backbone of the eternal army.
The Millennial Emperor/Grandfather: Formerly Myrhan, prince of the small country of Arran'ak; his family killed in a coup, he chose the path of undeath to regain his kingdom and improve it.

Initiate: Low-level sanctioned clerics/necromancers. Primarily serve the living.
Adept: Mid-level sanctioned clerics/necromancers.
Master: High-level sanctioned clerics/necromancers who prepare the Risen.
Sacrificed: Masters who have been become Deathless. Their soul is bound to the material plane; while they are not liches, they are very close to being such.

Look good?

A good alternative to imprisonment in such a country or setting would be that the criminal is killed, and forced to work as a zombie or skeleton for x number of years depending on crime. After this time is passed, he is raised if he or his family have adequate funds.

>>9666998
Looks nice. I like the Abomination bit, I think they'd be treated with kindness if one was ever found with a soul attatched. Or perhaps the Millennia Emperor takes them, semperates the soul from the body and sends it into the afterlife? That's a comforting thought.

>>9666805
Mummies are really strong. They could serve as heavy infantry or heavy machinery analogues.

>>9666973

Of course, in a nation like that hard work and sarcifices are rewarded where normal, every day guy just gets average "gets raised as a zombie" by default, unless he has done something impressive during his lifetime

And lack of welfare would mean that there wouldn't be any leeches arounds and law breakers are met with punishment either in or after life, how severly is entirely dependant on the crime itself.

>>9667005
another method : the former criminals must work as Undeads until they have payed the diamond/materials to be raised. The price of the raise is of course multiplied or reduced according to the crime.

>>9667040
>>9667049
Mummies are sentient undead that don't really make any demands on the living. They might serve as an alternate to lich for the 'honoured dead'?

>>9666257
Sorry, i was relating my own version of this. Was rather successful. Please dont take that as me trying to change your version. I hope you gained some insight from my own methodology. An overall, this thread and all the ideas/writefaggotry in it are awesome.

>>9666925
>>9666973
Obviously no society is perfect but the quality of living would probably be notably higher overall than it is in most places due to having the grunt work handled by what is basically automation. I imagine there is a minimum standard that everyone is provided. Sure, the food may not be that great, and the housing may be no better than Section 8, but the absolute necessities would be handled.

However, there would of course still be currency for trade between people to buy and sell goods, not to mention food that isn't just baseline gruel. Goods may be less expensive, at least the ones produced locally, but only when their production involves the undead. Things that require a skilled tradesman at all stages would not be nearly as cheap. Food is cheap, because undead can till the soil and reap the crops easily. Lodging is no different than anywhere else, because people have to run the inn; weapons, armor, and other equipment is likewise not much cheaper, though the Risen likely take part in mining the ore. However, considering more people are freed from a menial existence to do things like that, they're likely to have better stuff for sale.

Individualism is likely praised, and responsibility ultimately lies with each person to decide what they want to do, whether it's to sit there like a bump on a log or contribute to society, whether to become Risen or be interred. Likewise if someone commits a crime, they will be punished and rehabilitated (magic is useful that way) unless the crime is a very serious one (intentional murder, unsanctioned destructive magic) in which case the person will likely end up a Conscript. Only the worst of crimes (unsanctioned necromancy) is likely to have their bones cremated and the ashes scattered to the winds.

>>9667078
Oh. Cool. Sorry, I didn't mean to criticize! And yes, I got some good insight from it too.

>>9667067
Hmm, sounds like a good possibility. I suppose they could fill positions that were not as labor-intensive as what most Risen go and do.

As far as crime and punishment... I would rather not be killing people unless they've committed pretty serious crimes, honestly. I know death isn't usually a permanent thing but it seems kind of shallow to go 'bam, you're dead and now you have to sit in the afterlife for a year while we use your skeleton!'

But that does give me a good idea. If they're in that kind of trouble... make them work hard labor. Put them next to the Risen and have them work alongside them. Give them time off to rest, eat and sleep, sure, but otherwise... they're going to be doing some hard freaking labor.

>>9667113

That was my thought. The legal system would be much unchanged, except that most hard labor would be done by Risen. Therefore you'd be subjected to equally crappy tasks unsuited to mindless undead. For instance, sorting bent nails out of a barrel, then straightening them. Or sorting ore mined by the Risen.

Only the worst criminals, traitors, and unsanctioned necromancers should get the worst treatments. Your soul goes to feed one of the greater undead? Cremation and obliteration of your remains?

>>9667168
Yeah. That sounds about right. Honestly, all that really changes is that harming the Risen is treated akin to harming someone who's alive, and unsanctioned necromancy is made a pretty serious offense in itself and you can be exiled for it, if it involves human remains you're totally screwed and it's considered akin to treason.

>>9667113
Well, they are super strong. They would work well in military position, but they also gain huge wisdom boosts so they could fill civic positions better than any human too. They would be appropriate priests and advisors to the lich leaders and wizards.

Maybe some Risen of especial prestige or who have accomplished great deeds become mummies? A kind of 'peasant knight' thing.

Retard Lawful Stupid cunts don't know about my DUSTMAN NEUTRAL ZOMBIE/SKELETON WORKERS

>>9663834
There was one in the Slayers' comics. She was adorable and at the end of the book she gave Lina and Naga a zombie pretty-boy.

>>9667221

Don't mummies have that whole BURNING HATRED OF THE LIVING problem, though? They also radiate a fear aura, which doesn't really jive well with societal integration. Elite shock troops?

>>9667279

They are SENTINENT undead, why they would threaten living caretakers of their resting places? Besides, mummies are ancient undead and often venerated so they have no reason to terrorize the living and the relatives they know so well.

Both the dead and the living are in harmony, you can't obviously send undead caravans with said escorts since it WILL cause unrest if theres group of undead coming their way, so they have to send some ambassadors and traders to do the commerce.

>>9667279

mummy shocktroops sounds good. so do reanimated flesh golems. personally I'd think if you raise too many undead to high positions the society tips towards a cult of undeath, and it becomes something the living work towards.

why not fill your important clerical positions with the living? the lich himself is the only one who needs long-term vision and plan. maybe one or two others are made to be friends?

>>9667321

Some find it hard, but unlike other religions Necromancers often follow their suprieors (IE, Demi-Liches) and teach their ways and how to uhold the society as they planned, living are much versatile in social structure since most sentinent undead are bound to certain place or are allergic to sunlight or similiar other positive energy ridden locations.

>>9667314

You bring up some good points. Perhaps that burning hatred of the living only stems from the fact that when an average mummy is being disturbed by short-timers, they're usually in the process of superlooting. You still have the problem of mummy rot, though.

>>9667321

I could see an advisory council made up of free-willed undead. No real official power, but their words carry great wisdom and, accordingly, great weight.


I wonder if you could USE the fear aura to train your living troops to resist fear? Constant repeat exposures to intentionally buff their fear saves... would make for unbreakable line troops. Who fears the hand of mortal man when he already knows the touch of death itself?

>>9667321

You don't seem to understand the mummies concept, unlike other "wet" undead they are crispiers than bag of chips forgotten under sun.

Their limbs and skin start to crack or rot at fast rate if they are moved outside optimum surroundings, making combat with them impossible. But they are still better off unlike regular fleshy undead

Fuck, they probably have their own dentists to look after their teeth.

>>9667367

There are spells to get around this, and the Millennial Emperor damn sure knows 'em. There are also mummy lords, who are somewhat more robust.

>>9667366

Mummies teach the living, like all other elderly undead "motivate" the living with phrases like "There is far worse fates than death" or something similiar.

>>9667367

And oh yeah, mummies are often hosts for number of diseases including the mummy rot which is fatal. However, they embalment contain antitodes to various diseases including their own, making their mere existance to the undead society invaluable.

What is better recepie than holding couple thousand year old bugger that knows exactly what he was embalmed with?

Fa/tg/entlemen, we need this to be archived!! I have to go to work and have not read the whole thing yet!

I thought the problem with undeath is that it drags the soul back into the body- While this is a riveting read, I thought it means, by default, that the undead state is a tormented state of existence for the lower forms of undead, and only slightly better for the 'aware' ones. I mean, people don't spontaneously rise from the grave unless something *terrible* happens to them...

-And mummies deal Mummy Rot by touch, and radiate fear. Won't a society like this be teetering on the edge of violence? Like when a zombie om nom noms the human who was using it as a rickshaw driver, or skeletons attack those who obstruct their work?

What happens when they're uncontrolled, anyway? IIRC, undead attack the living on general principle...

>>9667550

Already up and voted up on suptg.

>>9667531

>Hey gramps! What are those wrappings dipped in?

"Oh, these? Uuh, let me see. Little bit of rosemary, clover, coffeebeans and vanilla I think"

this thread is pure win ! :tg/, never change.

>>9667555
All of our discussion and stuff has been based on the idea that undeath doesn't necessarily tie the soul to the corpse, I think.

>>9667555

Most lesser undead just stay put and don't even move unless provoked, lesser undead in such societies are controller by necromancers or sheer will of Millenia Empror himself.

Besides, Mummies are sentinent so they don't go touching things randomly and those that are in contact with them are protected and antitodes can be given by mummies themselves if need be. Besides, why would you fear something if you knew that the said creature is no harm to you? Fear without reason is rather shaky.

>>9667580

This, corpses can be animated turned into biological automatons similiar to golems if fueled by negative energy.

This writefag is not long for the waking world. Any last minute writefaggery that /tg/ wants?

>>9667580

Pretty much. It's the incorporeal, sentient, and greater forms of undead that typically have the soul bound to the body. Skeletons and zombies are just animated corpses. I dunno about ghouls, ghasts, and wights.

If I used mummies here I'd apply their fear aura as a morale boost to loyal troops and make them army leaders.

Mummy Rot is optional, and the thing about durability doesn't really apply. They don't fall apart any easier than zombies do.

>>9667658

Ghouls, Ghasts and Wights are doomed men that died or endulged themselves in cannibalism, so they would be frowned in civilized necromantic society unless used like hunting dogs during times of war (And only then) due to their insatiable hunger for flesh, far more stronger than you would compare to vampires bloodlust.

Lesser undead can be given certain amount of inteligence, such as occasional skeleton cackling in a cracked old pot just waiting moment to bounce out of it and scare anyone shitless in the process, time is irrelevant to undead so they could sit in there for years.

>>9667367

I really don't know shit-all about mummies. I rarely play tabletop games (like once every 2 years) but am I big fan of fantasy and this board comes up with cool threads like this.
I tried fixing my lack of knowledge about mummies with a mummy thread and some drawfaggotry but didn't get any answer outside of what amounted to "consult a sourcebook" of which I have exactly 1, basic manual 3.5.

>>9667796
try to rs a monster manual or the Libris Mortis for instance. i've never met or used a mummy in D&D so i dunno jackshit on them, sorry.

Well, this is goodnight from the writefag. Hopefully something interesting will catch my eye tomorrow for more writefraggery.

Goodnight, /tg/!

>>9667704
You know, there's probably a couple skeletons hidden here and there. Giant jokes to everyone, because everyone knows about them. No, they're there for adventurers who decide to go looting. "Hmm... let's see. Nothing in the drawers, nothing behind the curtain, nothing in the OHMYFUCKINGGOD"

But yeah. A good part of the whole concept is that anyone who's on the material plane after death WANTS to be here, so if there are mummies having lectures at mage colleges or helping to train a living military for awesome saves vs fear... I can totally see that happening. Otherwise they move on. Vampires, ghouls and wights fall under 'abomination' and would not be raised by any sanctioned necromancer.

>>9667893
THANK YOU AGAIN, YOU MADE THIS THREAD AWESOME

9667796
anon from >>9667871
here is a link describing what a mummy can do : a mummy in itself is not a creature, but a template like a skeleton.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mummy_%283.5e_Template%29
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mummy

>>9667935
Perhaps that is what the Sacrificed are. Mummies who made the transition willingly and elected to stay that way. Or better yet, Mummy Lords; this way there can still be those among the citizens who choose to become Mummies instead of waiting to become Risen.

The other undead are generally skeletons, and the Sentinels are deathless skeletons.

>>9668027
Addendum: They would need to also be Deathless, otherwise they'd be pretty stupid. Seriously, 6 int, 8 int for a mummy and a mummy lord? Kind of lame.

The hood was whipped off my face and the coarse rope looped around my neck. I blinked in the light of the town square, shuffling uncomfortably up on the gallows. There were maybe two dozen people gathered to see me drop. Beyond the crowd, in the background, a gaggle of Sentinels and their Adept overseer were working with a stonemason, patching up a fallen wall. My thoughts were brought back to the present when the Risen executioner jerked the noose tight around my neck.

"Aldus Sitek" intoned the black-cowled legate to my right, reading from a scroll the colour of Risen skin. "For the heinous crime of intentional murder, three counts, you have been sentenced by the Court of the Millenial King to hang by the neck until such time as you are dead. Your body shall then be reanimated and given over to the Conscripts. Your body shall not be interred, nor given a vigil. May your spirit find a deserving berth. Praise the Grandfather."

With that, the legate rolled the scroll back up and nodded to the hooded Risen. Incense-scented hands checked the tautness of my rope one more time with mathematical precision. Didn't want to break my spine or tear my head off, or I'd be useless to the Conscripts. No, I needed to hang and choke, thrash on the rope. I made to snarl a curse, but the floor dropped out from under me, and the words were crushed in my throat.

>>9668460

I remember thrashing at the end of my rope, mouthing curse words as I tried to get free. But my hands and feet were bound and the noose expertly tied, with centuries of experience. My yellow eyes were going bloodshot, staring with final fury at the blank faces of the gathered Living. My vision started going white at the edges and my eyes began to roll back. My lungs burned but I was suddenly too tired to do more than twitch. My eyes closed.

When they next opened, I was looking into the face of a young Adept. Male, barely old enough to shave. I could see a stone ceiling behind him, so I must be on my back. Am I dead? Am I alive? I try to look around, but my head won't move. Just my eyes.

"Master?" The young Adept calls out. "Master, I think I've done it!"

"Good!" An older voice, from somewhere I can't see, down by my feet. "Get it standing and I'll have a look." The Adepts joyous face slips out of my field of vision and I try to say something. My jaw doesn't move.

I realise I'm not breathing.

>>9668566

There's this piercing, shrill noise and suddenly my field of vision shifts upright, then down to the floor. I'm looking at my own legs. Naked. Pale with a blue tinge to them. A second note sounds and my head jerks upwards. I see the Adept standing a few feet away with a flute in his mouth. Looks like carved bone. He blows another note and I stand upright off the slab and turn around. The Master is a man in his fourties, graying hair and ruddy skin. He walks in a circle around me, looking me up and down. I try to follow him with my eyes, the only bit of me that I seem able to move, and when he moves out of sight I try to take in more details about the room.

Stone slab. Door to my left, closed. Couple of incense burners, one in each corner. But I can't smell the smoke. When the Master comes back into my field of vision, he stares right into my eyes.

"Not bad, Skylark. The body appears undamaged by your ministrations, although the eyes are a little irregular."

"He's responding to the flute, though, Master."

"Of course. Otherwise I'd be worried he was still alive in there." I wanted to scream in his face, do something to say that yes I am alive in here you ignorant pick-fucker! The Master turns to the Adept and walks out of my sight again. "Excellent work, Skylark. You'll make Master one day, mark my words. Now put him to sleep."

I barely hear the next note before darkness swoops over me.

>>9668719

I wake up next and I'm staring at the back of someone else's head. A woman. The back of her head's crumpled in on itself like rotten fruit. She's a Risen, not a very good one at that. I look past her and see we're stood in rows, on a field. Past our ranks there lies another line of men, in blue and yellow heraldry, carrying spears and wielding them menacingly towards us. A flute sounds and we march, or shamble, as one towards the spearmen. Who are they? Are we at war? How long passed between my last sleep? My body moves and I'm able to catch a glimpse of the sword in my hand. Cheap, wrought iron. Dull and notched, only slightly sharper than a hammer by the look of it.

The sky above us darkens momentarily and I see rather than feel the arrow hit me in the chest. My legs don't pause, don't even stumble as they carry on towards the spearmen. The Conscript to my left got it worse than me, with an arrow shaft having smashed his jaw, leaving it hanging loosely from his head. He doesn't seem to have noticed.

We reach the spearmen and I see the woman in front of me practically throw herself on the nearest weapon. It rips out the back of her and grazes my cheek. Even impaled as she is, she raises her sword and brings it down on the spearman, cutting into his neck. I realise I'm still moving, my sword raised just like hers.

>>9668923

The flute plays behind us, singing us to murder. It makes my thoughts go fuzzy to hear that blasted music and I have to keep saying to myself "I am Aldus Sitek! I am Aldus Sitek! I am Aldus-"

There's another flurry of arrows, but they're not aimed at us. Suddenly, the damnable flautist falls silent. My body goes stiff, still. So do all the Conscripts around me. The spearmen rally when they see us fall still, and begin to take advantage. The woman in front of me is hacked to pieces by a short sword. I don't truly know how much a Risen can survive and still function, and I'm afraid I'm about to find out.

When his grisly work is done, the soldier sets his sight on me and walks forward, blade held out and ready to strike. I'm screaming silently as I try to move my limbs, just my arm, even my mouth so I can cry out and let him know I'm not like the others, I'm alive!

He raises his sword and I close my eyes. I am Aldus Sitek. I am Aldus Sitek and I am my own man. I am Aldus Sitek! "I am Aldus Sitek!" He lunges forward. I step to the side and bring up my sword. He runs himself through and I rip my blade out, taking his entrails with it. As he gasps his last, I look at my steaming, gorey hands and realise I'm the one moving them! I'm free! I turn around and let out a triumphant howl. My dusty lungs make it sound like some torturous cackle-

-and somewhere on the field, the flute is picked up and begins to play again. My call is suddenly stifled and my body stands to attention. My soul cries out in anguish as freedom is snatched away and we Conscripts march ever onwards..

>>9669042
I wasn't liking the whole ANDIMUSTSCREAM thing but that does get fairly interesting.

>>9670190

Thanks. I don't usually writefag, but I was thinking about this thread on the way home from the library and came up with the idea for that little piece. Hope it was acceptable.