You sigh.
"All the same, I am going to get myself human again. I intend to do so."
"...Completely?" Pink asks, uncertain. "what if... what if they just change your mind. So you don't have the instincts that you fear. What then?"
"Then, I'm pretty sure a primeval dragon is going to take me on as an apprentice either way, and make *sure* I'm going to be just as bad as the worst of the dragons."

Pink blinks... slowly. And then, she asks this:
"So why not kill him?"
"What?"
"If you are subjugated, you are no dragon, and you are also not yourself. So kill him. You are strong already, with your mate you will be stronger still. Our Klan will be there every step of the way... Kill him. Become the new king of dragons, and make the *other* dragons more like you."
That's... Certainly one way to approach the issue.

The trap has been set a while ago.
Chad and William is listening very closely, looking to you for your answer.

>I'll consider it if there's no other option.

>...Interesting proposal.

>Other answer

>>5813051
"I like being your dragon, Pink... All of you. But I don't want to be an actual dragon. I at least want to be able to wear my armour, and hold my sword... And to be able to go into town and interact normally with other humans. But..."
>I'll consider it if there's no other option

>>5813051
>...Interesting proposal.
On one hand, we (as in Reynauld) really don't want to lose our humanity, but on the other hand, we'll do the most good to the world if we can teach the dragons (or at least some of them) to do good. All sapient races are capable of doing good - as long as they were exposed to it beforehand.

>>5813050
Also, did anyone have the links to the last thread? Pretty sure everyone's too engrossed in the discussion/debate about transhumanism and forgot to archive it.

>>5813051
>...Interesting proposal.

Wait, we're still not keen on being a dragon? I wasn't here for the last half of the last thread. Was kinda hoping we'd just resolve to be a noble dragon.

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>>5813165
https://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/qstarchive/2023/5772094/

Got it. Have a swole kobold/kobolt as a bonus

>>5813051
>>I'll consider it if there's no other option.

I still remember how this dragon we are talking about was described, I do not believe that we can kill him not without casualties any way. And I am team return to human or at least mostly human.

that and our character has directly sated in the update he wants to return to monkey (heh) so I am happy with the last resort option.

>>5813174
Indeed, our character's quest throughout has revolved around finding a way to prevent their transformation into a dragon. At no point in this adventure has our character desired to become a dragon. In the initial stages of our quest, they actively resisted the mental corruption of the Dragonould, which was part of the Sapient spell attempting to overwhelm their consciousness. Thankfully, Lady Arche Mage managed to remove the mental corruption from our character's mind. Unfortunately, she succumbed to the spell's influence and went mad with dragon power, marking the beginning of our second arc.

While the mental threat was now resolved, our main focus shifted to thwarting the physical transformation. Regrettably, our significant other fell victim to a dragonification spell cast by the now-mad mage, albeit without the mental aspect. To halt her destructive plans, we had to postpone our own transformation. Our actions led to a confrontation with the primordial dragon, a seemingly indestructible force. We brought the second arc to a close.

In the current third arc, we are on a quest to locate another mage who can reverse our transformation, undo Williams's transformation, and achieve our significant other's desired level of dragonification. Our character's reluctance to become a dragon has remained a constant throughout the story.

This issue has been a significant source of frustration among us, as some have suggested making our character a dragon. This proposition contradicts the very essence of our quest, as it:

A. Betrays the fundamental principles we have upheld throughout this journey.
B. Directly conflicts with our character's core desires and objectives.
C. Seems to disregard our character's motivations and the consistent portrayal of dragons as malevolent or at minimum amoral assholes who would kill you for looking at them wrong in this narrative.

With that said, I strongly recommend reading the archives. The story is compelling, and it maintains its quality throughout. It's a solid 10 out of 10 recommendation.

tl;dr

Raynould have never wanted to be a dragon all that energy has come from anons who do not care about this fact.

>>5813051
>>I'll consider it if there's no other option.
A true last resort

>>5813700
Reynauld wants what we vote for him to want.

I, personally, want him to be a buff dragon-man who can match the pace of Sarah's new bod, which she enjoys having and which our character is very much into by all indications. If we eventually become a full dragon, that's fine, but I don't think it's something we should jump into willy-nilly, since the transformation still seems to have an instinctual/mental component.

>>5813866
>Reynauld wants what we vote for him to want.

I see that you're comfortable with making a drastic shift that nullifies the efforts and dedication of 14 threads' worth of anons. This move would disregard the character's established development, previous choices, and the logical consistency based on his past actions. It would in my eyes be a betrayal of the character's essence just because "we" want to voted for it, without regard for all those threads of character development. Moreover, this perspective overlooks the fact that we still need to find a way to defeat the Primordial Evil black dragon if we decide to go full dragon. In short, I have a fundamental disagreement with this approach, and it's quite frustrating.

I am glad you do acknowledge the issue of dragon instincts and the mental issues that come with the transformation.

>>5813878
Anon, I've been here since thread 1. We've actually, in fact, seemingly had this discussion before, including the ways in which Reynauld's situation and outlook have changed, as well as his social sphere -- a hot buff dragongirl waifu who likes his new look, a bunch of friends who support him, less fear of turning evil, etcetera. Please don't lecture me, and let's not repeat ourselves. Neither direction is "a betrayal of the character's essence". It's just personal preference, and you're being real chuuni about it.

>>5813909
>You sigh.
>"All the same, I am going to get myself human again. I intend to do so."


we are just going to have to agree to disagree, I respect what our character wants, has developed as, and has his goal set on. So I want to see him return to full human or at minimum go back to dragon born rather than the border line feral form dragon that he is at now. A sentiment you seem fine with so our goals/acceptable outcome ranges are not incompatible. But I agree there is little left to be gained by going around the bush once more.

>>5813918
He. Isn't. Real. We just had the option to vote "...Interesting proposal.", and his views would have begun to shift and change at our command because that's how interactive fiction works.

>>5813921
While the character may not be real, it's essential to recognize that characters require motivations and core traits that define who they are. Consider James T. Kirk, the iconic swaggering Captain of the USS Enterprise. He's known for his love of women, his crisis-solving abilities, and his unwavering loyalty to the Federation. These are defining characteristics and motivations.

If the writers suddenly decided to change Kirk's character drastically, making him gay, revealing him as a Romulan spy, and having him betray the Federation and its ideals, fans would understandably be upset, feeling that the character was betrayed.

To illustrate further, think of the recent controversial show, 'Velma,' which drastically altered the characters and what they represented, leaving a sour taste for many.

After 14 threads spanning nearly two years of character development, struggles, and choices, it's entirely reasonable to perceive a drastic change as a betrayal of who the character is, what he stands for, and what he has fought for. Despite what you claim, Reynauld's core ambition and primary goal has remained focused on returning to his human form.

It's clear that we have differing views on character growth and development and their importance to a story. As suggested before, let's conclude this discussion. However, it's important not to oversimplify the idea that pivoting into embracing full dragonhood, after all we've crafted with this character over 14 threads and two years, can be as simple as voting for it. Reynauld is more than just a generic silent protagonist in a low-quality AAA title, devoid of personal motivations. Through 14 threads and two years, we've molded him into a rich and three-dimensional character.

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>>5813927
Kirk also isn't a character guided by sometimes-contradictory user inputs. he fact that other anons who have been reading, guiding, and playing as Reynauld for over a year disagree with you and vote contrary to you means your interpretation of the character is not as ironclad and unchanging as you might think.

>>5813700
...I've been here since the beginning. I said I wasn't here for the LAST HALF of the last thread, not that I just started from there or this thread.

>>5813051
>...Interesting proposal.

>>5813051
>...Interesting proposal.
... but can we actually kill that draconic bastard though? We should look for a way to end his threat to the world once and for all, regardless whether we stay human, become a full dragon, or kept to a state with the powers of both but weaknesses of neither.

>>5813051
>>...Interesting proposal.
She's pretty on point with this:
>So why not kill him?"
>"What?"
>"If you are subjugated, you are no dragon, and you are also not yourself. So kill him.

>>5813878
>I see that you're comfortable with making a drastic shift that nullifies the efforts and dedication of 14 threads' worth of anons.
I've been here since the first thread and it's really just you who gets the vapors every time you see a scab that can be mistaken for a scale.

Note to the new players, it's really just this one guy who is dead set on this nonsense.
>>5814296
Not right now, he's pretty powerful.

>>5813051
>Why not have our cake and eat it too.
Dragons are powerfully magical, we've experienced this first hand. Why not develop our draconic power to let us freely change our form throughout the dragon to human spectrum?
Be a dragon when we need to put the other dragons in their place, or hang out with our dragon gf.
Be a human when we want to take out kids to the park or visit a friend in town.
The obvious choice here is to be a dragon-shifter and unapologetically strive for the best of both worlds.

>>5815536
I'm not opposed.

>>5815536
We ARE on a tight schedule though. The Fey curse accelerated our transformation drastically, and Onyx did say he'll come to collect the second we fully transform. So if anything at least we need to delay our transformation until we can find a reliable way to kill Onyx with minimal casualties. Also, we still need to find a transformation scroll for our resident gobbo.

>>5815536
>>5815540

Okay, but in this case, we should start working towards that ASAP, but that also means having Reynauld come around to the idea. I think the best way of doing that would be to maybe use the write-in option a bit more to make our character a bit more vocally amendable to the possibility so long as his mindset doesn't shift entirely.

Because I've noticed that. The baseline answers don't really account for what we're talking about.

>>5815528
No anon he isn't I just prefer to lurk rather than fight in the thread.

>>5815712
I really don't think we have the time for that. I also don't like it either

>>5815644
Yeah either way I think we need to chat with an archmage asap. To slow down/reverse the transformation and/or learn how to control our own magic to that end.
Our new family likes our dragon-ness and if nothing else we seem to be committed to them. Finding a way to compromise would be great.

>>5815528
>Note to the new players, it's really just this one guy who is dead set on this nonsense.
No i'm not, this has been an on going debate/arguement for many threads. Involving multiple anons.

>>5815536
Hell, if that is possible I would be very happy with that arrangement as it solves pretty much every issue I have with going full dragon. Assuming we can figure out how to kill the giga evil dragon that will be coming for us.

>>5816008
I want to reverse the Transformation to where we are back to being similar to a DnD Dragonborn rather than the nearly feral formed abomination we are currently stuck as. if we can do that then I am all on board the learn our magic plan.

my preferred outcome would still be full human, but honestly the dragon shifter idea if it is possible is also acceptable and pretty cool.

>>5813051
>...Interesting proposal.
We still need to make sure we "don't eat humans for supper" as nicely concluded by Para, and even then we need to delay our (and Para's) transformation by a wide margin so that we have the time to prepare to fight the Onyx.

Turning back to full human would be a net loss for us, and had both we and Para been fully human we would have probably mauled her to death under the Fey Curse... but Onyx's "promise" was that both of us would receive his full "tutelage" once either one of us fully transforms. So we should probably also remind Para of the predicament we're in.

I'm all for transhumanism though - humanity isn't a weakness per se, but it's the baseline every other sapient species is measured against - aka a jack of all trades but a master of none. No specializations, no quirks, no traits beyond what we learn - aka what would be available to everyone else. It's only a true "strength" when compared to what another species is bad at, and every other time our only strength is "strength of character"... which is, once again, available to most other species as well.

++From this rotting cage of biomatter, Machine God sets us free++

>>5816018
can we at least agree to revert back to dragonborn levels of TF, so we can have the time to prepare for Onyx and keep our sick sword fighting skills, ability to wear armor, and interact with civilization so we aren't forced to chill in caves?

Once we achieve that we can start working on the Dragon shifter idea green tag had, which admittedly I am liking more and more since it really does let us have our cake and eat it too.

>>5816024
Exactly! The dragonborn form is the most advantageous to both we and Para in our current situation as we'd be tougher than a baseline human with greater physical strength and a potent fire breath, but just as skilled as a human in both close quarters and ranged combat without having to learn specialized magic (shapeshifting, dragonmorphing, etc.) or requiring specialized (and no doubt expensive) weapons and armor that fits a dragon's size and physiology.

Us turning full dragon would probably be an actual disadvantage against Onyx: square-cube law means a fully-grown dragon would be a lot less nimble than we currently are, and Onyx have a LOT of experience with dragon-on-dragon fighting which we don't. What we do have a good amount of experience with... is how to kill things larger than us with our trusty sword, and how to fight together as a squad - both of which work best when we're still of humanoid size.

So yeah, grocery list:
Halt our transformation so both we and para can stay at dragonborn form for another few years at least.
Find a transformation scroll for Anna.
Find a transformation scroll for William if he still wants us to.
Find ways to kill Onyx.
Learn shapeshifting that works for dragons.

>>5816036
God it is a breath of fresh air to be able to say I completely agree.

>>5816036
...this works, I guess, yeah.

>>5813051
>>I'll consider it if there's no other option.
Good Jove, miss the beginning of one thread and the debate is baaaaack
I don't mind retaining some dragon aspects, but I'm, and have continued to be of the opinion that full dragon is bad end.

>>5816086
yep

>>5815536
I'm pretty okay with this, if it's possible. Seems like an 'eventually' kind of thing, though, even then. Maybe Snikt could do it for us, since she seems to have more powerful command of her magic, with how easily she changed the appearance of that gnome?

"That... Is an interesting proposal." You note. While you most certainly don't *want* to become a dragon, you're not about to reject the ability to quell the dragon troubles everywhere... if you're correct about this. Even dragons seem reverent of that big bastard, so... Well, applying kobolt rules, beating him would give you his authority. Once you can do that...
A dragon also has plenty of time to push for reforms like that.
Pink is grinning ear-to-ear, but you stop yourself.
"Well, if things go wrong, at least I have that option, yes. No reason to fall to despair, you know? Honestly? I might go kill Onyx either way."
"So why wait? Ask the wizard there to speed it up, and-"
"Pink." You say, a little more firmly than usual. "I'm not going to do that."

She blanks.
"Why not?" She asks. "I thought you understood that more power is-"
"Because, if I'm a full-on dragon, I'm working from a disadvantage. I'm used to wielding a sword, wearing armor... Everything. If I'm much bigger than before, I'll inevitably be slower. I can cover more distance, sure, but we need to consider this from the perspective of fighting Onyx."
Pink remains somewhat confused, so you explain further.
"He's huge, yes, but powerful enough to be just as fast. If I turned into a full-on dragon, I couldn't be equal to him as a dragon. But a smaller, more agile foe? I might have a chance there."
Chad does bring up one issue:
"If that's the case, why did you not attack him when you first saw him?"

You chuckle:
"I didn't say I was ready to fight him now. I need to plan a lot, figure out what to do, bring... some exceptional weaponry, most likely. That said..."
It almost physically pains you to say it, but...
"I'll... probably pick the inbetween spot. Dragonborn rather than... full-on dragon. And, who knows, once there is peace?"
You grit your teeth.
"Maybe I will let it finish, if I have a way to switch. *Only* if I have a way to switch."

Pink shakes her head.
"You are too kind to your humanity, Dragon... But I understand. I- We will all be there to the end."
Chad and William both agree, loudly. You smile at that, and you smile a little louder when you suddenly hear shouting.

Ahh, right on time.
You stand up, adjusting your balance, and then walk towards the yelling. You see a man in a leather outfit, wearing a simple hunter's hat. There is a quiver of arrows on his back, and a compound bow a little distance away.
Snikt and the twins are currently tying him down, with no particular issue. Turns out having two guns aimed at you makes you a lot more compliant.
He leans back, and looks up at you in disgust, before saying something in the local language. Paracelsus, masked up, approaches slowly.
"He's telling you to get it over with and just kill him."
...
The man has a familiar look to him. The kind of look you've seen on a lot of faces when you returned home after the crusades.

>Kill him, no time for questions

>Ask questions

>Leave him here, tied up in the faewild.

>>5816395
>>Ask questions
Do we know each other?

>>5813050
I cant read past post of this quest, how do i catch up?

>>5816432
https://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/qstarchive.html?searchall=kobolt+klan

You can find the full archive right here.

>>5816434
Thank you anon

>>5816395
>>Ask questions
if he doesn't want to answer questions it means that somewhere in his pretty little brain there are answers that are worth finding.

>>5816395
Supporting >>5816520

>>5816395
>>Leave him here, tied up in the faewild.

>>5816395
>>>Ask questions
It's good to be informed.

>>5816425
Supporting.

>>5816395

oh boy this quest is still running, looks fun. i stopped reading last year after anons ignored me pointing out the archmage was an obvious trap. time to catch up.

"He's going to answer a few questions we have. It's in his best interest to answer truthfully." You say, and Paracelsus elects to translate that. The person in front of you doesn't seem to be very impressed by the implied threat, though there isn't a single doubt in your mind that Paracelsus mentioned it. He remains silent, so you just start with the first question:
"Who is he?"
The question is asked, and while he is initially silent, after a short bit the man speaks. As per usual, Paracelsus translates:
"He says his name is Tristan... And that he's a bounty hunter."
A bounty hunter? Really. Alright then, that raises the obvious question:
"Who put a bounty on my head?"

The man shrugs, and seems to be giving a fairly non-commital answer guessing from the tone. If he's exact on who it is, then he doesn't care in the slightest. Paracelsus rolls her eyes as she tells you what he said:
"Evidently, you've got a bounty for insulting an officer, and being responsible for the deaths of two "gallant knights". Also, for being a public menace."
...Alright then. You're just tired from hearing it.
"I suppose that officer didn't appreciate the fact I defeated him in a duel... And, I suppose killing two of his soldiers wasn't going to make them like us either." You say, annoyed at having to deal with this...
This had better not prevent you from seeing that damned mage. Fortunately, Paracelsus isn't worried:
"It's just a local bounty, most likely. Even if it wasn't, news travels slowly when there's a faewild in the way. The law can't stop us, because there's no official warrant out."
"Even though..."
Paracelsus chuckles:
"I'm guessing they don't have any solid evidence of you killing the soldiers, and the officer you shamed isn't going to make things worse for himself by using the King's Law to take revenge for being defeated. It's a rather shameful thing to do."

You strongly doubt it could have been anybody *except* you that killed those bastards, considering they got roasted, but... maybe they didn't find the bodies.
Or, the shame of the duel is more important.
"Right. And back to this guy... How does he move through the faewild so easily?"
The question is asked... and the man laughs in response. Then, he speaks again, and you can only hope he's not just mocking you.
"He says that it's because he fucked your mother last night."

He's mocking you. You cross your arms in irritation.
"So, we're not going to find out from him, then?" You ask, and Paracelsus just grins in response. It's not a good-natured grin, to say the least.
"Ohh, don't worry. I already know. Open his pack." She says, and the twins do just that, revealing a bunch of... bread?

"Salted, yeast-rizen bread, with cold metal flecks baked into them. Very hard to make, and likely hardened to the point of being a club. It keeps the fae away, up to a point."
"Why didn't we-"
"Cold Iron is far too expensive for us to get, let alone getting it baked into bread. This man is a professional."
The man looks at the bread being removed from his pack, and then looks back at the Paracelsus. His expression doesn't change one bit, and instead, he just tries to get a little more comfortable.

Is there anything else to ask of this wretch?

>No. Move on and leave him tied up here... And he can keep the bread.

>No, move on, leave him tied up, take his stupid bread.

>No. Kill him and move on.

>Yes, ask him...
Please do elaborate on what you want to ask.

>>5819727
Archmage arc was kino, so I'm glad e didn't listen to you.

>>5820143
>Yes, ask him...
"Why should we let you live?"

I see no reason we should sympathize with this smug merc more than a bandit. If he has a good reason, maybe we can consider it. if not...

>Kill him and move on.

>>5820143
>>No. Kill him and move on.
>>5820153
we can ask him first, but overall I don't see the point. In any case, we should take the bread and not leave him alive to potentially mess with us at a later date.

>>5820143
>>No. Kill him and move on.

>>5820153
Support but take the bread with us

>>5820143
>>No, move on, leave him tied up, take his stupid bread.
can we hand if over to the new fae king?

>>5820143
>No, move on, leave him tied up, take his stupid bread.
Leave him to the gnomes

>>5820143
>>No. Kill him and move on.

Don't want anyone to find and use him.

>>5820143
> Give him to the fey, and take his bread.

"Right, that's all we're getting out of him. Twins?"
Both of the girls look to you, smiling, and you just say:
"Shoot him. Back of the head, so he doesn't see it."

It's a small mercy. Some would say it's not a mercy at all. Your kobolts say "Yes, dragon!" with genuine delight to be helping out, even if it is to execute someone. The shot doesn't echo far, the trees and leaves doing much to stop it. Then, you loot his body. A composite bow, 28 arrows, his bread...
You let him keep the leather armor, though, considering he did what everyone does when they die. Too much weight for what it'd get you, anyhow. The bread is something you pick up as well, considering it's potential uses.
"This feels... silly." You say, holding the loaf in your hands. But you don't question it as you stuff it in your pack, and prepare to keep moving. It shouldn't be hard to make your way out, considering the current prince in charge is going to make this easy for you. It's just a straightforward trek through a forest now.
As you walk, you look down at your body... sighing at how warped it now looks. Paracelsus notices, however, and comes close to you.

"In my opinion, you are still quite attractive, you know."
"I think your opinion won't matter much to anybody else that sees this. Frankly, I'm expecting to be attacked when they see me."
"Don't you worry... They've seen worse. Just claim it's a curse, like before, just one that got worse. We're here to find a mage that could help you, lest we forget."
You smile. It's good to know she's there for you, at least.
"Thank you. I'm not giving up, not again anyhow."
"Your response to despair was to go out and do good. Even if it's harrowing to know you were alright with dying... Well, I think it speaks well of you that you did that, at least."

You hold her hand, tenderly.
"I've got many reasons to never give up."
She chuckles to herself.
"Just a month ago, I thought I was never going to bother with a relationship, and here we are, being sappy together." She says, blushing as she squeezes her fingers between yours.

The trip through the forest was, ultimately, *far* easier than before. Just a straight line, without even having to adjust for trees. It's as if the forest itself was giving you a wide berth. And then... out.
"Right... Two more days until we reach the capital. We can make a stop over there, Foidh-Abhainn is a bit of a backwater, but that's just the thing I liked about it. Not nearly as much royalty worship, mostly just farmers." Paracelsus says. "It'll be a good place to stock up and rest."

Considering it's probably approaching midnight, it sure sounds like a good idea...
But, considering what you look like...

>Head into town.

>Sleep under the stars

>>5822227
>>Sleep under the stars
Paracelsus, who can speak the local language, and understands the local customs, can handle going into town for supplies and Intel.

>>5822227
>Sleep under the stars
Engage the cuddle pile

>>5822227
>>Sleep under the stars

yeah better not risk it, maybe we send word into town so that they don't mistake us for a monster band or something

>>5822227
>Sleep under the stars
Supporting the Paracelsus diplomacy at >>5822308, too

>>5822227

>Sleep under the stars

Imma be real, I just wanna cuddle our dragon wife in peace.

>>5822227
> Head into town.

You lie back under the stars, kind of glad to just be relaxing for a bit. It's a shame that you don't have a bed available for yourself or your companions, but that's alright. The kobolts are the best blanket one could hope for, after all, and everybody's body heat contributes to... Downright startling amounts of heat, actually.
Anna lies on top of the pile for this reason, being the only person here who isn't in some way heat-resistant.

"So... what's next? Just... two more days of walking?"
"Sure seems like it. Then we need to look into how we're going to be entering the capital. It's a big city, after all."

...
Damn.
"Well, we can do it like you did just now, go a bit incognito and ask around for a meeting. It won't be ideal, but..."
"It's the best option we have." She confirms, finishing your sentence. The town she visited didn't have too much to say. Mercifully, nothing of note happened there in quite some time, and even the king's men haven't been around in weeks. The town remains fairly sleepy, and the only thing keeping it up and running is the occasional bit of trade... and fishing. The only thing of note is supposed sightings of a mighty sea monster, despite the river not being salty in the slightest. But, you suppose calling it a lake monster has a bit less gravitas to it.
"The loch isn't too spectacular, so this one really should be just some fishermen telling tall tales. They aren't exactly panicked despite the presence of a huge evil sea monster, after all."
Fair enough

"Seems fishermen are the same everywhere."
"Something about being out on the water, I suppose. As for supplies, I was able to procure some fish in exchange for healing some people..."

Paracelsus falls quiet.

"I... had to use magic. As far as they know, I'm just an out-of-town alchemist, but I didn't have what is required. I instead enchanted his tools. It feels... dishonest, but revealing myself as magical would be too much of a mess."
She grits her teeth...
"It's something I should be able to fix, too. The man had congestion. Well... not anymore, but I... It goes against what I set out to do to be able to take a shortcut, and now that I *can* take a shortcut, I wonder to myself..."
She turns to you.
"Shouldn't it be a better idea for me... not to revert this? Perhaps it would be better to find some kind of in between, or perhaps better to leave it be. I'll have a lot of time to think about this, after all."

...

>Well... I won't be a dragon, if things go right. But I can't stop you from making that decision.

>I really think it would be... unwise to do so. Humanity is something that can only be lost, not regained.

>We'll both need some time to think on this, I suppose.

>>5826899
>We'll both need some time to think on this, I suppose.
>I don't want to lose myself, either... The person I've become, the skills I learned as a human, my ability to interact with people somewhat normally...
>And don't forget about Onyx.

>>5826899
>As far as skills go, I think that there's no shame in using what you have available. In my experience, war and conflict gives you no extra boons for honour in battle. Healing, I certainly knew several who'd take magical healing over none at all and meeting death. That said...

>We'll both need some time to think on this, I suppose. I think the big problem is neither of us want to lose who we are at the core. Neither you with your healing knowledge, nor me with my empathy for others. And we fear that our physical changes will bring mental ones as well. They already have for me, I know that. I struggle at times, and I fear losing that struggle...though having you helps greatly.

(I'm a firm believer of 'humanity is a matter of *empathy*, not physical form'. A dragon or other sapient creature can have just as much or more empathy than a human. Humans can do some horrible horrible things.)

>>5826899
>>I really think it would be... unwise to do so. Humanity is something that can only be lost, not regained.

>>5827133
>at minimum we should halt any further transformation and revert mine so that I am not a walking target for monster hunters and glory hounds

>>5826899
>>5826951
Seconding. We have been given a huge opportunity to help people, and we should use it as best we can. That's the point of being both an Alchemist and a Knight Errant.
Using magic to heal people isn't "cheating;" the reason she wants to find practical, alchemical solutions is because those solutions are repeatable and we can share them with other people, but if we don't have those tools available, we still have a duty towards the people who depend on us. We should reassure her of that.

>>5826899
>I really think it would be... unwise to do so. Humanity is something that can only be lost, not regained.

>>5826899
>>>I really think it would be... unwise to do so. Humanity is something that can only be lost, not regained.
>at minimum we should halt any further transformation and revert mine so that I am not a walking target for monster hunters and glory hounds

I stand by what I have said all quest, we should return to being human or at minimum get back to dragonborn status

>>5826899
> (Write-in) Remind her that Onyx included her in his "tutelage", so she fully transforming is still a BAD idea as long as he's still alive.
> Also remind her that her original research is important exactly because most people cannot use magic, and those who can use magic often run the risk of going full crazy, so her continuing her research would still help the most number of people in the long run.

The thing is... unless there's a god/religion that Reynauld follows in the setting that decrees human exceptionalism, there's no real divine spark that makes "humanity" - or the existence as any other sapient species - somehow special or sacred beyond different specializations. Kobolds have the issue of being naturally subservient to other species, morality be damned - but they're the exception (being magically created as a servant species and all that), not the rule. Being human or not should not change our morality or sapience, nor should it change our perception between right and wrong. Still, incredibly bad idea to fully transform into a dragon with a certain Onyx bastard coming to collect, though.

>>5826899
Supporting >>5826951

>>5829145
Also adding this to >>5826910

>>5826899

This is such an import choice and I hope we get it right.

>>5829145
I support this guys, and >>5827137
This if she really wants to keep some magic but first guy is right humanity fuck yeah

To be extra clear I am voting to return to human

>>5826899
>Well... I won't be a dragon, if things go right. But I can't stop you from making that decision.

>>5826899
Supporting >>5829145
I'm in the camp of "remain as a dragonborn", similar to the logic of >>5816036 and >>5816018.

>>5826899
Supporting >>5826951

>>5830023
>>5829997
>>5829686
>>5829673
Anon, don't do this. have some dignity.

>>5826910, later supplemented with >>5829586; "Need Time to Think' 1
>>5826951 NTTT 2
>>5827133 Stay human 1 (no previous votes)
>>5827281 NTTT 3
>>5827522 SH 2
>>5828632 SH 3 (or at least Stay HumanOID) 1
>>5829145 Delay transformation 1 (no previous votes)
>>5829557 NTTT 4 (no previous votes)
>>5829673 SH 4 (no previous votes)
>>5829686 SH 5, but Sarah can do what she wants (no previous votes)
>>5829997 SH 6 (or at least HumanOID) 2 (no previous votes)
>>5830023 NTTT 5 (no previous votes)

Without 1 post IDs, it's 2 to stay human (one of which is okay with being a humanoid dragonborn), 3 to take time to think.

>>5830058
Define "dignity". If it's about us going off the rails, then it's more or less because the simple choices Spine gave us didn't really cover the nuances of the stuff that most of us want to talk about... and if you're defining the existence as one specific species as more "dignified" than another... then it's more /pol/ than /qst/.

>>5830082
I mean I think it's really weird to have a huge influx of 1-post voters at the end of a voting cycle, pretty much doubling our usual vote count, and I suspect someone is rather desperate to have the quest go their way and is taking dishonorable measures to achieve this.

>>5830085
Yeah... but once again, sometimes it's just school/VPNs being really dynamic with their IDs - I was 2CnX/mbm, Wg9l0Bgn, l2oxfbDN of this thread, and PGD7ivAe of the previous one. PGD7ivAe was my apartment ID, which I can no longer use as every IP address from the same apartment complex was banned.

If we start down the rabbit hole of accusation throwing this thread is going to get very nasty very fast.

I have a couple of points to put forward to hopefully calm this down before it goes off the rails, the vote has been open for 3 days over a weekend. If there is a time for people to be scrolling through new threads it's gonna been then. On top of that I think we can all agree this is a pretty important vote so lurkers would normally only read are taking the time to actually put there vote in.

Am I going to sit here and pretend that the chance of someone botting is zero, no because it never is, but we have a pretty solid community in this thread, and despite our disagreements I would like to think and hope we are all collectively better than that.

and at the end of the day spine has final say over what happen with the update if she thinks things are fucky then she will do something about it. either way we should all wait for the update and see how it plays out. Though you all know I am firmly in the remain human camp, or if it is a possibility dragon shifter camp because I after thinking it over do agree it would be cool and would not betray the character's essence

>>5830521
"She"? When did Spine mention her gender somewhere in the previous threads, or do you just know her IRL?

>>5830610
I know spine runs on other sites as well and unless I am going full retard mode I recall it came up at one point

>>5830610
... and in case anyone's wondering, I was lAs/tgdy and bz06Cimj in this thread, and bRady7qK, EBiHmxLk, 6o3g7jnG, RN5UJ6zO, and YL2naLlz in the previous one.

I've remained WLBDUx67 for this whole thread, unless this post somehow changed it.

I make a point of only voting on home wifi so it should be the same each time. That's also because I can't trust my mobile not to be ip blocked or slap me with a random ban.
And sorry if I get grouchy occasionally. I guess it means I'm invested in the quest.

>>5831168
"You've been banned for using a vpn"
I haven't used a vpn outside of work (for accessing internal work networks only) since I moved out of my college dorm in 2008.
Holy crap shared ip addresses are annoying.

"I... I can't say I'm very sure about that." You say, and you see that Paracelsus seems rather disappointed. "I intend to become human again, or... at the very least close enough to human to still recognize myself. As I am now? That needs to be reverted, I can't go on living like this."
Paracelsus remains quiet... And sighs.
"I understand that. You are attached to your humanity, and its familiarity. But I..."
She falls silent, looking away from you as she tries to hide her expression. Then, she turns back to you, pushing a kobolt tail out of the way.
"I can't say I have much love for the human form compared to something as regal as a dragon. Especially if we don't have to deal with the brutish attitude. But... On the other hand, I worked hard for this body, as well."
Boy did she.
"But it will fail me. My studies will last forever, I fear, or far longer than this body could normally offer. You have been sped up, but I've got... Decades before I hit the stage you're on. I don't get hurt as much, and I don't get poisoned by vengeful fae either. I can't just... walk away from this magic. This age... This strength."
"Do you need it?" You ask.

A cutting question, from how quiet she becomes. It's not like her to ever fall silent, and it drags on. However, then she has an answer ready.
"Yes. I *do* need it. I want it. This... this is an opportunity, and I must see it through to the end. But I need you, as well. You're the only man I ever loved, Reynauld, and I..."
She grits her teeth.
"The fear of losing you is far greater than the looming threat of my mortality."
You smile.
"You don't have to lose me. You've got... decades, right? I'll be there the entire time, no matter what happens. I love you for *you*. For the smart, beautiful woman that-"
"I'm not beautiful, Reynauld. I'm plain, backed by effort. If you like my looks now, they'll fade. Faster than you'd think."

You smile.
"I think the concept of aging isn't unfamiliar to me, Sarah."
She smiles back, grimacing.
"I know, it's just... I need time to think about it. If you really don't want to be transformed, I'll respect that decision. Meanwhile... I need time to consider it. Being... somewhere inbetween, at least. Would that be so bad?"
"I've considered it myself. It's my minimum, if humanity is truly impossible to regain."

Sarah remains quiet... And then turns back to you.
"I think, when the time comes, we'll have figured it out. We still need to talk to the court, after all. Now, come on, let's just sleep."
And sleep you do, with a rotating guard, of course. Just in case.

In the morning, it's time to figure out how to travel. The main road is the fastest way, you'll get to your destination in two days... But it's public. There are some alternative roads, but it'll take longer, and... Well, if you're out in the middle of nowhere, who knows what you'll find.

>Main road.
THe quicker the better

>Alternative roads
You can handle any bandit, no doubt.

>Off-road
Difficult all-round... But quiet.

>>5831179
>Alternative roads
Quiter than the main road, but the bandits should be more predictable than what we'd encountet off road.

>>5831168
(Was U5+1DNZJ yesterday)
Well, you haven't been THAT grouchy, at least not with this ID. And I understand your frustration at those who consider holding stubbornly to the fragile cage of rotting biomatter they call "humanity" as the ultimate strength of character, somehow. Like seriously, have Reynauld been behaving any less nobly since the start of the quest? Hell no. Did his form change? Yes, but so what? Is there anything wrong with that, even in-universe?
I vote for staying humanoid because it's the most efficient form for our current task, not because "we'd lose our humanity otherwise", whatever the hell that means. Plus, that means we do get to transform together with Sarah, bit by bit, into draconic guardians of the defenseless, after we kill the Onyx bastard and learn how to switch to and from a humanoid form at will, of course.

++There's no changeless truth in flesh - only betrayal;++
++There's no strength in flesh - only weakness;++
++There's no constancy in flesh - only decay;++
++There's no certainty in flesh - but death.++
++Gloria Omnissiah++

>>5831179
>Alternative roads
The human nobility and knights around here are the biggest issue, more hassle than even the fey. No offense, Sarah.

>>5826910 is me

>>5831179
> Alternative roads

Yeah, pretty sure we'll still run afoul of the local "nobility" even if we're fully human with a band of squires and men-at-arms instead of a clan of kobolds, given how we respond to their blatant robbery of the masses under their rule... So off the beaten path we go. Bandits will face the blade and bullet of our entire clan for sure, and at least we won't be dealing with any more fey as long as we keep to the roads.

... right, where's TOM-8-O's again? Where's our carriage? And have we ever talked to Sarah about Onyx?

>>5831179
>Main road

>>5831179
>Off-road

>>5831298
>And I understand your frustration at those who consider holding stubbornly to the fragile cage of rotting biomatter they call "humanity"


Well fuck you to transhumanist scum. Death before corruption

>>5831298
I'm mostly with you, but also, sometimes we fly into violent frenzi hee we can't consciously control our actions and do things we normally wouldn't, like commit cannibalism or attack our girlfriend.

>>5831420
Do you feel the same way about Anna, or the kobolds, or the changeling we took in? Sarah? Snikt?

>>5831481
Once again, wouldn't we still attack Sarah under the same fey curse if both we and Sarah remained fully human? Only then she wouldn't be sturdy enough to take our attack and survive unscathed.
The Fey bastard's curse was "YOU SHALL REGRESS TO AN ANIMAL! I SHALL BREAK YOUR EVERY BONE, AND WATCH YOUR MIND ROT!!", which means even if we stayed a human we'll probably be turned into a wolf/boar/bear/(insert fauna common to the British Isles) instead, and would probably still lash out at Sarah because we wouldn't understand better.

Cannibalism might be an issue, but IIRC we do have the tendency to cut a bloody swath through anyone who dared to bring harm to our family-by-choice, and anyone who dared to cause harm to the defenseless, regardless how human we look. Our newfound instincts might be an issue for diplomacy though, and does allow local nobility to demonize us even more than they would otherwise.

>>5831591
The mere fact that, prior to the Fairy King curse we were already losing time, acting unusually and without rational thought or memory, implies that the transformation isn't ourely physical. Whether or jot you agree with what we did or think it was justify, it is evidence that we are being changed mentally, nd losing control of our behaviour.

>>5831591
>"YOU SHALL REGRESS TO AN ANIMAL! I SHALL BREAK YOUR EVERY BONE, AND WATCH YOUR MIND ROT!!"
Interestingly enough re: the varying definitions of "human" it is perfectly reasonable for someone to regress to an animal without changing form at all. In fact, humans are fundamentally animals to begin with, and it is only through our aspirations to a higher ideal that we truly become men.
>>5831420
To be a man is to be both marble and sculptor. Transformation for its own sake is ultimately pointless, but it is good that we should become a greater version of ourself.

The issues with our transformation are with our ability to remain in control of it, both physically and mentally. Forsaking the abilitys it has given us, however, marks a betrayal to our oaths as a knight errant because we would be willingly choosing to not help people we otherwise could, and specifically people that nobody else can help (since they don't have the gifts we do)

And of course, finding a way to kill Onyx is high on our to-do list, and if we can not find one, we'll create it.

>>5831179
>>Main road.
I think it's worth the risk

>>5831481
>Do you feel the same way about Anna, or the kobolds, or the changeling we took in? Sarah? Snikt?


I believe anon was taking issue with the characterization of us pro humanity anons as knuckle dragging luddites and him the 'chad' transhumanist


anyway I still believe we should remain human or get back to dragonborn levels of TF, if we can have a scroll to take us back to fully human anytime we want tucked away then I would be (begrudgingly) alright staying at Dragonborn levels if it means our Sarah is happy, but no further for me not one step more.

>>5831803
The anon formerly known as tlzuWnZ1 here.

Shit. Looks like I said something really divisive without necessarily meaning to, did I? Granted, half of it was me trying to speak like a Mechanicus techpriest in WH40K, and... well, the rest is history. (Really should've noticed that first, this is not a WH40K quest; and second, techpriests aren't exactly the most sociable people even in-universe.)
Still, for me, I'd consider dragonborn level of transformation as the most optimal for our current occupation as a knight-errant (increased regeneration, increased strength, increased durability, and fire breath for starters), and assuming Onxy is slain and we learn how to shift between forms at will (or at least without too much preparation), I still don't see any downsides of even full dragon levels of transformation yet, other than Reynauld wasn't exactly happy about having dragonhood forced upon him ten threads ago.

That said, if there's any proof in-universe that dragons are actually incapable of good (instead of just from Onyx's "tutelage" or just from a lack of exposure to their own kind doing good), or there would be too much of a risk for even fully sapient dragons to go feral without warning (similar to magi in this setting where they can go full crazy if they use too much magic), then of course I will retract all my previous comments on transhumanism. Our outside form, after all, should be a means to an end, and an optimized tool for our trade - and optimization would require "not posing a severe risk to the user even without outside influence" as a bare minimum.

>>5831179
>Alternative roads

"We'll take the side routes. The paths less taken." You say, pointing to the smaller road to the side. These roads were mostly made for the farmers to move their sheep from field to field, but inevitably, people starting using them just to get from one farmstead to the other... and, soon enough other places. They don't have any cobblestone or the likes, these are natural paths, walked along just often enough to prevent much grass from growing, and the hooves of the animals have ensured there is a very small groove in the road. It'll take you past some forests, as well, though none of them are nearly as big or dangerous as the faewild you just left. So, it's just... traveling, really. It's likely to even be relaxing, though it'll be a bit of a pain to get the cart through everything. Nothing that'll *really* stop you, but it'll slow you down from time to time. Tomoooooooo has been enjoying himself here, at least, and his stay in the Faewilds has been very good for him. While he is still, undeniably, a bit of an ugly horse, his coat is shiny and his step is certain.
Pink is also taking extra good care of him, now that she managed to acquire a brush.

As you walk, you decide to take a moment aside to just talk to people. The Changeling boy, especially, who has been keeping himself deathly quiet. Frankly, it's... kind of incredible how quiet he can be. You have to use Paracelsus as a translator, still, but it works well enough. You point out that he's still with you and the others... and he nods. Paracelsus then tells you this:
"The boy says Pink has been trying to talk to him, and that she spoke of what we are doing. Turning people into... other things. He wants to be turned back into a human."
Well, that's to be expected.
"Well, if we can manage that... I suppose."
Paracelsus shakes her head, though:
"Will it truly help him? He was already betrayed by his lover and his family. I'm not sure showing up after being made human again will actually help."
"It can't hurt... Besides, if it was king-sanctioned, we might be able to help a hell of a lot of people. His word goes far, doesn't it?"

Paracelsus looks at you... and then nods, before translating it to the boy. He smiles, though it's still quite pained.
It's going to take a lot of time before he learns to smile again, you are sure of that.
"Still... It might be a good idea to find an alternative for the boy, if it doesn't work out. Fortunately, as the traveling freakshow we already are, I'm sure people don't look twice at him being here."

Good point.
Anyhow, the roads remain calm. You pass by a farmer at one point, and when you duck into a forest, you're out of it in less than an hour. The car did lose a wheel at one point, but you managed to reattach it. More accurately, the kobolts did, while you were lifting the cart.
A solid twelve hours of travel, it felt like... Apart from the occasional breaks. The changeling boy, especially, isn't used to this pace yet.

As you prepare for a night's sleep, the first night of... around three, you wonder if there is something else to consider. Anna, for instance... You wonder if she still wants to be a kobolt instead of a goblin. Anything to help cure her face, you suppose.
The boy, you want to help turn into a human, for sure. Paracelsus...
And yourself.
All this changing, all this consideration, it's enough to make your head spin. Instead, you focus on something far more important.
"Say... What do you people think we should do after this? Once... I've arrived there, and hopefully achieved something I'm pleased with." You ask to the group and the kobolts remain quiet. Obviously, they'll just keep following you. Paracelsus shrugs:
"I'd probably hang around you as well. You bring me to interesting places... and I love you, of course."
She says it like it was the weather.

Hmm.

>You'll wander this land for a time, maybe. Figure out if you can't bring about sweeping societal change.

>Head home. As soon as possible. You hate this country.

>Prepare to fight Onyx... which is going to require a lot of planning.
Where to even start?

>>5834742
>Prepare to fight Onyx... which is going to require a lot of planning
See if we can scrounge up any lore about the old bastard, or ancient dragons of his ilk.

>>5834742
>Prepare to fight Onyx... which is going to require a lot of planning.
Faith, steel and gunpowder

>>5834742
>I'd like to say we will settle down build a home together, help those who need it and protect our clan, but in truth I know I have to prepare to fight Onyx, it might be a futile effort, but I have to try even if it kills me.... but hopefully with a lot of planning I can kill him without dying in the effort.

>>5834742
>>Head home. As soon as possible. You hate this country.
>>Prepare to fight Onyx... which is going to require a lot of planning.
Those options in that order. Do some knight errant stuff until its time to check Onyx's oil.

>>5834742
>>5835256
Basically this. I'm still pushing for full Dragon in the long run, Dragonborn-form minimum so long as we can retain our mentality.

People can change their minds, doesn't mean we HAVE to commit to this forever.

"I figure I'm going to fight Onyx... which will require a lot of preparations."
Paracelsus sits up for a moment, moving another kobolt tail out of the way to do so.
"Really? You're going to attack the closest things we have to a God? One that lives on top of a mountain, besides?"
You scoff:
"It's not a God." You say, quite certain that if there is a God, it's nothing as simple as a big dragon. Having seen hints at the horrible truth of the world, odds are that things are just a tad less dragon-shaped and a hell of a lot more sealife-shaped. Unfortunately. That, and organs. You were one of the lucky ones not to end up fighting the Heart at the capital city during the crusade. It's often said that the only thing worse than dying to that thing was actually surviving the fight and having to live with it. Instead, you were just busy fighting off cannons manned by demons.
Hmm.
"I'm fairly certain that a Cannon could defeat it... If it were bigger."

Cannons were often used to deal with dragons, after all, but even that tends to require multiple shots. So you'd need something better to deal with something as titanically powerful as Onyx... Mercifully, Paracelsus is still smarter than you, and proposes something:
"First of all, magically enhanced cannon, natch. Second... Perhaps we could apply the same principle that the weapon we found in the underground. The shotgun."
"So... Powder inside of the cannonballs?"
"We'd have to change the shape, I suppose, but what if instead of a large round ball, it too was more..."
She sticks her hands out, forming an arrow by putting them together.
"Aerodynamic?" She says, having found the word she was looking for. She looks so cute while doing so.
"That's an idea... Maybe it'd pierce his filthy hide."
"Failing that, the concussive force should be able to mulch his rotten insides." Paracelsus says... Though, then she turns to you.

"But I have to ask... If you intend to remain human, then why be concerned about Onyx at all? This is a lot of effort, and in most circumstances, I'd even say that it's suicide."
You snort.
"I believe that creature might be directly responsible for so many dragons being horrid vermin with too much power. That, and it promised to turn both me *and you* into an apprentice of sorts."
Paracelsus seems rather... interested, at that.
"No better stroke of the dagger than from a place of trust... Not to mention, with its age, I'm willing to bet I could learn much from it."

"No." You say, your voice lowering to a harsh whisper. "There is nothing to be gained from consorting with that abomination. Don't even consider it."
"That seems rather ignorant. Not to mention-"
"You have not seen it, you have not spoken to it. So I ask of you, please believe me when I say that creature is little more than malice and death. Don't consort with it."

Paracelsus seems momentarily lost for words. She just... blinks.
Then again.
Before, finally, she just nods.
"Were it anybody else, I'd have told them to stuff it. But I'll believe you. So, back to thinking on how to kill that thing. We'd have to adjust the barrel on this proposed cannon, too, and find a metal that is certain to handle it. That's not even getting into the transport aspect... I bet magic is going to be essential for that purpose. Back to the cannon itself, however, we're going to need somebody to make it. I'm capable, for sure, but I'm not an expert with metallurgy... And I haven't looked as much into black powder as I'd have liked. So... We'll have to involve the Alchemist's Guild. I did not leave on good terms."
"I remember. You made a poison gas that had actual skulls and crossbones in it."
"My magnum opus in poisons, you know... Goodness, I haven't tossed a plague bomb in so long."
"There hasn't been a need for it, compared to the other options. The kobolts do a lot of work, these days."

Paracelsus wryly notes:
"That, and I'm almost always patching up holes... Anyhow, we'll save the talk about killing Onyx for another time. First... We need to reach the royal court. Sleep well."
"Don't let the bed bugs bite."
"We don't even have a bed."

Hehe.

In the morning, there isn't much going on. You suppose it's as good a time as any to talk to people.

>Don't talk to anybody. Better to stay fully alert

>Speak to somebody
Just mention who, and maybe also a subject, though you don't doubt anybody you talk to will have their own things to talk about.

>>5839626
>Speak to somebody
Let's check in on William and Ana about their transformation goals, and if they've changed, perhaps? Also see how Snikt is adjusting to Dragonkin life?

>>5839639
support, I hope william hasn't given up hope of returning to human form, the idea of being forced into that of a slave species then losing yourself to the instincts of that species is horrifying, hopefully he still has enough of himself to want to return to human form.

>>5839626
>>5839639
seconding
>>5839709
I have a feeling his perspective has changed because he's getting his little willie wet on a regular basis now, more than any changes due to actually becoming a kobolt.

>>5840048
I mean, double-blowjobs will do things to a brother.

"William?" You say, making the (comparatively) tall human-turned-kobold turn to you. You notice that he tilts his head differently now, having adjusted to how his eyes are a little differently spaced. "Yes, ser?"
"I just wanted to touch base with you. Other than training, we haven't talked in a while." It's a bit of a shameful thing, frankly. Fortunately, it seems William doesn't mind
"You had a lot of things on your mind, ser... And I didn't pry. Because I, ahh... Had things on *my* mind."
He looks over to the twins, who are walking next to each other and, if you're hearing it right, trying to figure out if this mushroom they found is red or blue. To you, it's red, but they're still very colorblind.

"No doubt. It's related to this I want to ask... do you still wish to turn back into a human?"
His response was faster than you would have predicted... or what you would have wanted to hear.
"No. Not at all." He says, with a smile. "It's... the only downside is that I'm shorter. But now? I'm handsome, I'm tall for a *kobold*, and my scales are both vibrant and bright! I'm basically everything I wanted to be as a human, comparatively, and for the first time, I know what I want to do with my life."
You're almost afraid to ask, but...
"And that would be?"
"Serving you... Oh great dragon." He says, before laughing. He said "great dragon" with no small amount of irony, and when he catches his breath from his laughter, he quickly adds: "You're just Ser Reynauld to me, of course, but... You know what you're doing, and I like-no. I love the klan."
His smile turns a little pained for a moment, however, and he moves a bit closer to you, whispering:
"And... the sooner people forget about William, the better. Including the klan. The horrible things I said, the things I thought... I'm much, much better as a kobold, inside and out."

You don't like this.
"There's no reason to think that being a kobold is what brought these changes about. Who you are on the inside still seems... the same, no?"
"Hah!" He scoffs. "I still get warm feelings doing what you say. Before, I got that warm feeling when I scrounged together a meal, or when I stole something without them noticing. Now, it's just when I do something for the klan, or for you... though, those are basically one and the same, eh?"
You don't hide your concern, though William is quick to wave it off.
"Don't worry about it, Ser. Kobolt instincts... You've got your own dragon instincts, right? It isn't even some kind of... mind control thing or whatever. According to Pink, when you entered a wild state, it's like... you know how teenagers do dumb things? Lord knows I do... Anyhow, that's you. You're a fledgeling dragon in an adult human's body. That stuff in the faewild? Pretty sure that spider-thing made you, like, animal intelligence. So I'd wonder why *you* would wanna turn back, Ser."
"Because I'm human."
"Are you? If you wanna know humans, just look at the wretch I was."

>>5845146
>If you wanna know humans, just look at the wretch I was.
Pink's gotta' stop grooming our squire into being racist.

(forgot to submitthis post aaa)
This is annoying. Does everybody here hate humanity for no adequate reason?

>Explain to him why humanity is pretty great, actually
Explain

>Fine. Leave him with his happiness
At least he's happy.

>>5845230
(Was VKTgLk0H last time)
It's more like "every sapient species is capable of doing both good and evil", and humans are no exception.
Kobolds are "special" in the sense that their understanding of good and evil is simply "whether this benefits their 'dragon' or their clan" instead of the golden rule, social conventions, or even self-preservation (e.g. the ogre and the human kid, the kobolds didn't even understand being considered emergency rations by the ogre is wrong).
William used to be a bandit, and is actively trying to disconnect his existence as a kobold now from what he was.
Once again, Reynauld don't want to be anything that's not human probably because his time as a crusader meant he saw THINGS that some humans had become under the influence of demons and malevolent gods, while Pink... is Pink, who saw everything from a kobold's point of view.

>>5845243
>Fine. Leave him with his happiness

Humans are not THAT exceptional in a world with non-human sapients. Being human is probably just about as great as being any other species that's fully sapient and coherent.
William might not be bitter about humanity in general, but he is bitter about his time as a bandit. And humans are just as capable of malevolence and cruelty as any other species.

>>5845243
>Fine. Leave him with his happiness

It's his choice. We can ask him if he's really sure about it but we probably wont change his mind.

>>5845633
(was jLsJg6L9)
... and especially because most of our family-by-choice are kobolds, and Anna was definitely in the "pro-transformation" camp. If anything, Reynauld's conflict should be "staying as the original species" instead of "staying HUMAN".

>>5845243
>>Explain to him why humanity is pretty great, actually

>William, every individual has the potential for both good and evil within them. Although you made mistakes and were on a dark path, you embraced the second chance I gave you. You cooperated with me, paid heed to my advice, and despite your doubts, you are on the path to becoming a good person.

>William, I understand that you may not hold a high opinion of yourself due to your past actions. However, compared to my misdeeds, I believe that you are not beyond redemption. Do you remember when I spoke about my family's history and the things I had to do shortly after returning from the Crusades?

>I purged my kin to the last because it was the right thing to do. I carried out orders in the crusade that haunt me to this day. I stood at a crossroads, William. On the left path was the darkness that each of us carries inside our hearts, beckoning me, and whispering sweet poison in my ear. "Haven't you done the right thing long enough? Why bother standing for what's right? Aren't you tired of always fighting for what's right, only to be hurt again and again?"

>On the right path my humanity and willingness to stand fast in the face of that darkness. On that path was the harsh and unfeeling truth that surrendering, relinquishing my humanity, and abandoning the fight would only make the world a colder place. It would leave one less person willing to stand up and do what is right, not because it is easy or for personal glory, but because it is the right thing to do. The world we inhabit, William, is a cold, cruel, and indifferent place that seeks to extinguish the lives that struggle against it.

>There will always be those who seek to profit from the suffering of others, but there will also be those who are willing to stand up to them, even if it means risking their own lives. It is better to die fighting for what is right than to passively watch as the darkness consumes our world.

>William, you told me that if I wanted to see a human, all I needed to do was look at what a wretch you were. However, when I looked at you, I saw a boy lost in the darkness of the world. I saw the potential that you had hidden away from yourself. I didn't take you on as my squire out of pity, but because I believed in the man you could become, the man I still believe you can be. Ultimately, the choice is yours, but I want you to know that I still believe in the William I met on the side of the road. I still see that potential in you, You are a better man than you think.


fucking called it

>>5845715

>tl:dr
>"If you wanna know humans, just look at the wretch I was." William, you can say the same of me I did bad shit in the crusades I had to slaughter my family, and when faced with the choice to give up my humanity and embrace the darkness to hurt the world as it hurt me I rejected it and choice to hold fast not because it was easy or that I even wanted to, but because I had to do the right thing. Humanity understands the world is unjust and cruel, and that the good die and the evil live and chooses to fight for what is right anyway because that is how we fix this broken world because to do anything else would only serve to help the darkness win because it is the right thing to do.


I am no poet, but I hope the core idea gets through well enough. William shouldn't give up on humanity because he believes as a human he would be incapable of being good, the only reason he is changing for the better is his humanity because he chose to embrace the light and not reject it, we just have to help him realize that.


don't let him fuck himself over because of self-loathing, and slave species instincts guys, William doesn't deserve that.

>>584524
>Let him have his happiness, but remind him of humanity's dignity
Point out that for all the evil or stuff people do, we've seen dragons and kobolds do stuff that's just as bad: serving up children to be eaten by ogres for kobolds; treating kobolds like pawns, terrorizing innocents and raping their own kind to impregnate them with cannibal minsters in Onyx's case. As others said, everyone has the capacity for good or evil. If he wants to be a kobold, and Paracelsus a dragon, more power to them... But humans don't deserve scorn for being what they are, either.

Remind him that he's a knight's squire, and that means even if he isn't human, he has a duty to them. If he disputes this, remind him that it's this duty and our adherence to it that spared his life, and the lives of the Klan before that.

>>5845763
Oops. This was meant to be a reply to >>5845243, and also is me.

>>5845243
>>Fine. Leave him with his happiness
it doesn't actually sound like he's been brainwashed based on what he's described. Yeah he's bitter about what he was like as a human, but he's not really wrong to be. I'd be more concerned about imputing his own failings on the rest of humanity than his mostly healthy level of self-loathing for his own past. Humans have the capacity to be both good and evil, and most of them are somewhere in the middle, and our duties as a knight errant and squire is to give people the best opportunities and incentives (like not getting stabbed in the head with a sword or shot or burned alive) we can to make sure they can be good, instead of evil.

Anyway, medium option, remind him that the nature of his duties as a squire don't mean blind obedience, and he has a duty to disobey us in certain circumstances, if he recognizes that our orders or priorities are contrary to our own vow as a Knight Errant. Maybe bring up the ogre, and the other 'bolts, and our concern about making sure that if anything like might happen, it's his duty to make sure it doesn't. I feel like he's been able to handle that when we've had our own problems so far.

I am very sad to see the vote going this way for poor William, truly heartbreaking

>>5845958
I'm happy for him, but I am worried about the actively anti-humanity bent our found family is gradually shifting towards.

>>5845964
>but I am worried about the actively anti-humanity bent our found family is gradually shifting towards.

based on the past few updates I can safely say it is coming from pink. I am glad to see we can agree on that even if I bitterly disagree about William, poor bastard.

>>5845976
>>5845964
>>5845964
Well, yeah, our clan have three (post-)humans in total, one of which is us, the second was basically a magos biologis (aka poor sense of propriety, being constantly fascinated by things others find disconcerting, but very good at her job as a medical professional with a good code of conduct), and the third one a former bandit that would have been executed or at least permanently disfigured/maimed for his crimes by the standards of the time of the setting (late medieval to early renaissance). Everyone else are all kobolds except the one gobbo who is more interested in transforming into a kobold because that means being the same species as her loved one and curing her disfigurement.
Also yeah, we really need to explain to our clan that being a human isn't a morally inferior option, either. And seriously, Pink... is Pink. The oldest kobold in the clan, the most experienced, but also the most set in her ways of "kobold clan best clan, serve dragon good, refuse dragon bad".

... And even as a transhumanist, I still have a LOT of reservations on turning someone into a kobold - because kobolds, as a magically created servile species, stand on a very thin line between "fully sapient and coherent" and "self-learning, self-aware, capable of advanced logic and higher reasoning, but not fully sapient". No other sapient species would be so blindly obedient to their "dragon" (read: any non-kobold sapient being) that they wouldn't even object to being eaten or have their children eaten - do that to a human, an elf, an orc, a gobbo, or even a fey creature (which is not necessarily fully coherent as their "living force of nature" aspect can easily outweigh their sapience), and they'll at least plead for their lives attempt to escape, or buy time so their children can escape. But not the kobolds - they might call the ogre who considered them emergency rations as a cruel being, but they never objected to the ogre's decision to use them and their children as food (Thread 2), making kobolds, in a sense, less capable of doing good or evil than other species as they have an instinctual lack of agency and tend to be only as good or evil as their masters.
.... which basically made them an existence not too dissimilar to droids of Star Wars, which made sense, as both are purposefully-created servile species/product-lines.

>>5845243
... and yes, I'm switching my vote from >>5845285 to a write-in:

> Being a kobold means to serve one being, to treat the being as infallible and always right and just - until another being subjugates the previous one, and the allegiance automatically shifts to the successor. This is not the way to be a knight - doubly so for a knight-errant who answers to no lords nor masters but their own conscience and the code of chivalry. You're still my squire, and to be a squire means that one day, you would become a knight yourself, defending what you truly believe in to your last breath. You cannot do that as a kobold - for being a kobold means to be always servile, to hold someone else's word as law no matter how cruel or unjust, and to never live for for yourself ever again. What will happen if, say, that fate dictates that Sara and I were to be laid low by a cruel monster that would eat your children for dinner and feed you the entrails of your loved ones? We've slain a monster like that before, together: remember the ogre in the sewers? Now what if someone like him were to defeat Sara and me so that he became the new "dragon" of our clan? As a kobold, your instincts would tell you to serve him without question and without hesitation, even when his orders were to, say, feed him your own limbs, or even your own mate and children, as the kobold with peg leg can attest to.

> You were once a bandit, a thief, a wretch as you said yourself, yet your only crime was to survive a cruel and unjust world, a world that I, as a knight-errant, am trying to make better bit by bit; and I'm inviting you - and every other being in our clan, be they dragon, kobold, or goblin - to join me in my quest, and perhaps one day, have you as a worthy successor of mine, making the world a better place not because you're ordered to, but because you want to as well. Yet, as a kobold, you'd never make the final transition, your instincts would tell you to only do what you were ordered to, not what you want to beyond "serve the dragon" and "serve the clan".

It have nothing to do with being HUMAN, but have everything to do with being KOBOLD. I might not care if we turn into a dragon, an orc, a dwarf, or any other species that's not automatically evil or insane, but being turned into a kobold is a tangible DOWNGRADE to cognitive functions when compared to any other sapient species.
TL;DR: Genetic Stockholm Syndrome is not worth it.
... Also, petition to turn everyone except Reynauld, Paracelsus, William, and Snikt into dwarves. Similar hardiness, similar height, similar lifespan, similar ideal in service and labour, but none of the genetic Stockholm syndrome bullshit.

>>5846445
(forgot to mention, was jLsJg6L9)

>>5846445
>>5845715
>>5845243
Support

>>5829684
My ID changed for some reason this was me

Kobolds are genuinely a perfect slave race if you have the strength

>>5846611
Right, quick question: what are some of the tangible downsides to Reynauld staying/reverting to a dragonborn? The only one I can think of would be it would be easier for his enemies to demonize him.... but IIRC his reputation of "the one who purged his entire household" made his outside form practically redundant in demonizing him. The only other downside that I can actually imagine would be that Reynauld have seen abominations some humans have turned into during his crusades. Granted, given transformation scrolls would most likely require the existence of a stable template species... Renauld might not even have the choice to be stay dragonborn, rendering the entire question moot.

>>5846631
Yeah, because they're engineered to be that way - and as an engineering student myself, I have to say, morality aside, whoever created them did a damn good job. Perfectly loyal so no chance for them to defect, long natural lifespan, human-level intelligence, capable of individual decision-makibg, small target, strong immune system, low maintenance, rapid reproduction and maturation, strong sense of discipline so they'll never desert or turn to banditry, plus no personal ambition so they wouldn't try to usurp their current leader either.
Seriously, the only thing they might be bad at is to engage in hand-to-hand with a larger foe.... but that's what larger monstrous creatures are for. For rank-and-file archers (assuming crossbows) and skimishers they're perfect for both drowning the foe under sheer numbers and rapid hit-and-run attacks, while for menial (and even lower-level administrative) work they're still on par with most other species.

>>5846445
I strongly vote against transforming our kobolt friends into dwarves against their will.

>>5846951
Do they even have "will" of their own in the traditional sense? The Pegleg 'bold didn't even understand that having his own hatchlings (read: children) eaten or having his own limbs eaten by the ogre was a bad thing, only that he failed the ogre somehow and he deserved to lose his limb.
But yeah, on a second thought, turning kobolds into dwarves (or humans, or any other sapient) would probably work out about as nicely as turning a dog or a cat into a human - suddenly losing senses and instincts they relied on for decades (if not centuries) would probably turn out to be disastrous.

>>5846971
.... and somehow the IP changed again. Was Z+ciOeCa .

>>5846971
>Do they even have "will" of their own in the traditional sense?
Chad has shown discomfort and concern for others verging on moral compunction. Esme is in love with us and desires us (to the point of being briefly named 'Humper') despite knowing it's "wrong" for her to do so. Pink is actively undermining our authority because she thinks she knows better than us. The kobolts aren't automatons, they just have a much stronger instinct to defer to authority than a human does, and a reduced sense of fairness. They're effectively a eusocial species. Think of them less like lizards than like cute little bees or ants with human intelligence, or at least like molerats or prairie dogs; not robots, but also not humans.

>>5846986
Fair point. The issue is still that they sorta WILL "consent" (in quotation marks because their engineered servile instinct overrides their individual will) to anything their "dragon" (dragonhood optional) asks for, even if it's something immediately harmful for them like eating their limbs. And that's also why I said they have a sense of right and wrong but it's really warped. Most of their concepts of "right" and "wrong" are about whether an interaction between them and their "dragon" is the "proper" thing to do (likely also engineered by their creators), and whether something benefits their clan.
So once again, I'm not saying they're inert robots, but that they cannot give meaningful consent to anything that's not also a kobold. Yeah, I probably worded my previous post weird.... They're capable of individual decision-making just fine, and they clearly have emotion and a social structure so they definitely have free will, it's just that they cannot give meaningful consent to their "dragon"s.

TL;DR: Should've said "can they even give consent to non-kobolds" in the previous post.

>>5847031
>Can kobolts consent?
Yes. They can consent to what their dragon requests, or things they just like (food they enjoy, even from a non-dragon; games they like to play, even with a non-dragon).

>Can they withhold consent?
Maybe, perhaps, but seemingly not as a general rule... At least, not from their dragon.

>Is this bad?
Probably not if you asked a feudal lord or collectivist, or others who see the solicitation of the consent of the governed as unimportant or harmful to society.

>Should it be changed?
Probably not. It's their default state. They enjoy serving. It's immoral to a modern liberal sensibility (including mine) to make a slave of a human being because most humans buck against it. they resent it, and must be coerced into servitude. We're not naturally inclined towards such levels of deference, and it chafes us. For a kobold... Well, the 'turning a dog or cat' analogy is good, or perhaps the best comparison is in Animorphs when an ant is morphed into a human and can only scream in existential dread at what has been done to it. Snikt is grappling with a less-extreme form of angst in that same vein as we speak.

>But can our kobolts consent enough for us to treat them like humans? Can we interact comfortably with them?
In sex-positive feminist circles (I know, I know) there's a concept called "enthusiastic consent". I think that's useful here. Looking at the (non-canon) sex scene, we can pretty confidently say that neither Esme or Pink were being coerced, because they were very excited at the prospect of sex acts with Reynauld and in fact initiated them.

In a less-lewd and canon context, we see this in how Dismas' little family responded to the ogre versus how they respond to Reynauld. They objected in both cases, but with the ogre there was a degree of 'working to rule': they tried to minimize harm and were saddened by the things they has to do, even if NOT doing those things were unthinkable, whereas under US they're actually seemingly gratified. All our other 'bolts have expressed or demonstrated similar sentiments: they have served another dragon, and would gladly have done so had we not killed him, but have repeatedly expressed delight that we are an unusually kind and pleasant dragon, and happiness when we express love of familial feeling towards them.

Put it this way: to a kobolt, it seems that a dragon is like the weather: you cannot control what the seasons bring, but you can certainly enjoy a sunny summer day with a nice breeze more than a cold blizzard or destructive tornado.

>>5847031
>>5847088
>What about William?
That's... Complicated. He's in the best circumstances a kobolt could be in: handsome and tall, well-liked by two attractive (I assume, to fellow kobolts) females, and serving a benevolent dragon who values his well-being and self-actualization. However, eh WAS a human, and his nature HAS been intrinsically warped by the transformation into servitude and eusociality, which COULD be exploited and denies him a freedom he once had. However, many people would trade some small measure of freedom for things like peace, love, community, or simply the guidance of a capable leader. We do it all the time when we submit to kings, or even elect representatives or agree to follow the judgments of courts of law or terms of service. William's condition is a step beyond this in a way I'd personally find troubling if it happened to me... But that's a bit of a gut reaction, not entirely rational.

If a really good friend and mentor would always be their for me, I'd get to be healthy and long-lived, and got two beautiful waifus, would I mind it so much? What if I knew that I had failed my own moral standards and become a real shithead when left to my own devices, and feared backsliding? And if I had all those things, how would I feel if someone "freed" me, but at the cost of my new relationships and my lifespan? Would I be grateful?

I don't know, anon.

For our kobold they should stay kobold and we should do everything we can to protect them, for william we on the pro human side have laid out the reasons why we need to help him change back. Keeping him as a kobold a genuine slave instincts species is wrong

>>5847162
I'm pro-transhuman, but yeah, turning any other species into a slave race is still bad.

>>5847162
>>5847179
>>5847091
>a servile, semi-sapient creature
... frankly describes William as a human better than it describes him as a Kobolt. While in general, humanity would lose a lot if it became kobolts, in this specific instance for this specific person, that is not the case. He was absolutely his own worst enemy when it came to self actualization, self improvement, and growth, and it's not brainwashing if he realized that himself after quite literally seeing things from a different point of view.

>>5847435
Kobolts are a literal slave race there is no denying this

>>5847495
Yes and they're still a step up from where William was on the great big bell curve of humanity, because as much as we'd like to pretend that every member of the human race has unlimited potential, it's simply not true. Some do, most don't. Our job is to make sure those who can aspire to greatness do, and those who can't are still able to make use of their limited potential to lead fulfilling lives. Humanity writ large, and William, are two totally different things and he's unironically better off now in every metric.

>>5847162
Will he be happier with marginally more free will but with less sense of community and probably no bitches? We'll see, I guess...

>>5847553

You might think William's beyond saving, but I call bullshit on that. Long before he went through that awful violation and became a literal slave, he was growing as a person, becoming a better guy. It wasn't just a trick of the light; he showed real promise.

Let's get real about what happened to him. It was as bad as being raped. Goog took everything from him—his body, any chance of going home, and damn, his free will too. We've seen what Kobolds do when under a dragon's control. Three in our clan were sacrificing people to a damn Ogre, even mutilating a kid, all because they were ordered to, with no hesitation, no way to say no. According to you, turning William into one of these poor devils was somehow an improvement. That doesn't add up.


I don't know what made you see people this way, but honestly, your bias disgusts me. The truth is simple: we need to restore William's free will and agency and remove the mental chains that Forced Violation has put on him. As a kobold, he'll live and die by our command, happily, because his mind is literally hardwired to do so. It doesn't matter how well we treat him; he'll still be our slave. You can try to justify it and rationalize it, but everything we know about kobolds and how they function in this setting proves this fact true. not turning him is horrifying and wrong if we truly consider him our ward, and truly want to mentor him, then we have to turn him back. Anything short of that is just putting him in a gilded cage. Until something offs us and Sara and he ends up a slave to something as bad as the Ogre.

Hell, it's not like we can't get a few backup scrolls of Species Change from the wizard we are going to meet. Goog, before going full Mad Mage, gave Ana one. We could turn William back to being human, and if after a few weeks, then after he regains a clear mind and full agency if he chooses to turn back into a kobold, I won't say a damn thing because it will have been his choice and not a forced violation of his person.

because right now he literally cannot think straight and a compliment is enough to make him putty in our hands. He literally can't say no to us that isn't a person who can make sound choices, that isn't a person who is thinking clearly enough to make such a critical life-defining choice.

and that's all I have to say about this.

>>5847579
.According to you, turning William into one of these poor devils was somehow an improvement. That doesn't add up.
>I don't know what made you see people this way, but honestly, your bias disgusts me
Nothing the kobolts have done is different or worse than things regular old humans have done. Whether William is better off as a kobolt or human is an open question. Whether kobolts deserve to be called 'poor devils' for their nature seems like a stretch. I like our kobolt friends.

>>5847586
>We could turn William back to being human, and if after a few weeks, then after he regains a clear mind and full agency if he chooses to turn back into a kobold, I won't say a damn thing because it will have been his choice and not a forced violation of his person.
That is optimal, but also, he CAN disagree with us even if he can't outright disobey us. See also: Pink, Chad.

>>5847619
>Nothing the kobolts have done is different or worse than things regular old humans have done.

are you sure you want to make that the hill you want to die on?

>Whether kobolts deserve to be called 'poor devils' for their nature seems like a stretch.

Are you sure this is the hill?


because I remember how every Kobold was introduced and who/what they served. The original group served that piece of shit dragon that cursed us in the first place and who was a right bastarded and terror for the local towns. But let's be fair they likely served him in a more servent role than a go and actively harm others kind of way. But that doesn't change the fact they were actively and happily serving an evil dragon.

Then we have the later add-ons serving the Ogre, who I will remind you, killed their old master, claimed ownership of them, ate through their food stores, ate the kobolds, and told them to snatch people from the town to feed to him. And they did it, all of it, because they had no choice but to obey because of what they are. It never crossed their minds to try and kill the bastarded who ate their old tribe, never crossed their minds to take a chance and run for it, or even ask the humans for help with the ogre, no they fell in line because they physically and mentally couldn't do anything else.

I like our kobolt friends too and want to protect them, but I won't turn a blind eye to the truth that if we were not here, they would very likely be back under the command of something as vile as that ogre and would follow its orders without resistance, because of what they are.

So for my part, at least the question of whether William is better off as a human or kobold is a very clear and simple question. Free will, and the ability to make your own choices without literal mental limiters forcing you to obey anything that is stronger than you, are more important than the illusion of comfort and temporary happiness because what happens to William if and when he is separated from us, what happens when an Ogre becomes his dragon and he can do nothing more than follow it's vile orders, because he literally can't disobey. What then anon, and don't try and say oh that will never happen, because you can't know that.

When I look in my heart I can only find one course of action that sits right with me, because if we actually care about this character we have come to know as William, then the only right choice is to turn him human again. Otherwise, we are bad mentor, bad friend, and in my view bad anons.

I am speaking from the heart here so I hope you can make sense of my views

>>5847619
>That is optimal, but also, he CAN disagree with us even if he can't outright disobey us. See also: Pink, Chad.


I am reminded of a quote, one that is all too relevant to this discussion and debate on William's fate, "a man chooses, a slave obeys" and anon, William can only obey, I hope you can see the problem with that.

>>5847642
>are you sure you want to make that the hill you want to die on?
Anon, in the quest world our MC slaughtered his family because, regardless of their freedom of will or because of it, they perpetrated abominations just as terrible or worse than anything any member of our klan has done. That's not even touching on things people have done in real life.

>>5847648
>"a man chooses, a slave obeys"
Literally a phrase that was invented to refer to human beings, highlighting that humans are very, very capable of being rendered just as servile and subordinate, and HAVE been. They're just less happy about it.

I hope we find enough scrolls to be able to offer William the choice to change, and then (if he wants) change back. If we can't , though, I don't feel as cut-and-dry about it. If we can change him back against his current will, but not return him to kobolt form later, I'm not sure the possibility of sabotaging his current happy life is worth it to give him marginally more free will, especially when Pink and Chad are actively highlighting that this may not be necessary to expand his autonomy.

Also:

>>5847642
>Otherwise, we are... bad anons
>>5847579
>your bias disgusts me

I wish you'd stop trying to frame other anons making different choices about this work of fiction as somehow being immoral or bad in some grander sense. Unironically, please, touch grass.

>>5847659
>Anon, in the quest world our MC slaughtered his family because, regardless of their freedom of will or because of it, they perpetrated abominations just as terrible or worse than anything any member of our klan has done. That's not even touching on things people have done in real life.

exactly the point anon, he chose to do the right thing even at a terrible personal cost, he could have let it break him but instead he did what had to be done.

> If we can't , though, I don't feel as cut-and-dry about it.

I suppose our fundamental values are just too different from each other, I value free will and choice over the illusion of happiness.

>I wish you'd stop trying to frame other anons making different choices about this work of fiction as somehow being immoral or bad in some grander sense. Unironically, please, touch grass.

I speak the way I speak it's as simple as that anon. also, see that I prefaced my replies as my opinion on the matter. anyway Fictional or not the idea of keeping someone as our slave even if they are happy to be our slave is disgusting to me. That's just the long and the short of it, and yes it is that simple, as you pointed out he can disagree with us, but he cannot disobey us. We are nothing more than a benevolent slave master if we keep him as a kobolt.

If I have offended you, then I apologies I can get passionate about the things I get invested in, but I standby what I've said.

>>5847579
Free will does not exist. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't. I have nothing against humanity, but whatever parody of humanity you've folded over on itself to hold up as a paragon of existence is absurd, and in no way resembles humanity as it actually is. The vast majority of people are eusocial bugmen, especially in a quasi-medieval environment where survival is dependent on group succuss.
>>5847648
Then William was only ever a man in a purely biological sense. This is actually the crux of the problem. "Human" means two things, it means being a fully realized being and it has an axiomatic meaning that implies membership in our species, but those two meanings have nothing to do with each other. Only a very small portion of the latter are a part of the former category, and there's nothing to imply that you need to be homo sapien to be a fully realized being.
>>5847660
To be fair I also find his worldview and conception of humanity to be deeply immoral which is why I constantly get baited into replying. Jean-Jaques Russeau and his consequences have been a disaster for mankind.

>>5847824
>Free will does not exist.
Well that explains that, you're wrong, and have a deeply tragic view on life.

>>5847088
>>5847091
(was ZBY+tmQt and IanTfiIl, such is the life of a engineering college student, whose opinions don't even warrant composting or recycling and goes straight to lanDfill)

Yeah, and that's why me, as a transhumanist and an egalitarian, didn't want to just talk to William about how GLORIOUS and RIGHTEOUS it is to be HUMAN instead of OTHER SPECIES... because first, that type of talk belongs to /pol/ instead of /tg/ or /qst/ (aka we've yet to see Reynauld subscribing to human exceptionalism in-universe, and until then any out-of-universe human exceptionalism would be out of character), and second, because we do have other non-humans in the team. Pretty sure that type of sentiment will drive us apart from Sara (transhumanist with a "Dr. Guinea Pig" attitude), Anna (transgoblinist), Snikt (former kobold, currently transforming into a dragon to save her from a deadly curse), plus the veritable warband of kobolds under our command. Telling William that being HUMAN is the MORALLY CORRECT THING TO DO would definitely NOT go well with our team, although we do sorta need to address to the (largely non-human) team that being human is ALSO morally correct and for heavens' sake NOT morally inferior to kobolds and dragons.... because, once again, Pink is our de facto 'boltwrangler (aka secretary, adjutant, and counsellor) but she's way too stuck in her traditional thought process of "kobold good, serving dragon good". This isn't too surprising, however, as Pink is literally more than two centuries old, and definitely have some pretty deep-ingrained biases and preconceptions, or in other words, she's "the boomer of the bunch". She knows her stuff alright, but sometimes her ideas no longer fit the current situation.

Back to kobolds and societal structure. Yeah, the kobolds' lack of ability to withhold/withdraw consent might not be an issue for the more authoritarian-aligned cultures... but there's reason why modern egalitarian nations even have the "checks and balances" system: an authoritarian state can indeed be a lot more efficient than an egalitarian one under the guidance of a wise ruler, but everything can go to hell literally overnight when a tyrant takes the helm - while the checks and balances would at least try to limit the damage somewhat. Under Reynauld who treats his kobolds like his own children, then yes, everyone's living great, but it's a completely different story under the Ogre. In an egalitarian state we give our collective consent to our government to set rules for us or to allow certain people represent our best interest... but the catch is that we can also collectively withdraw that consent by voting them out of the office and repealing laws that no longer fits our modern sensibilities, a process which acts as a check against the state's power. The kobolds are incapable of withholding or withdrawing their consent no mater who their ruler is, which also ties into William's situation as our squire: a squire is a knight-in-training, who would one day become our equal as our successor. A kobold may be literally the best soldier a field commander can ever dream of, but their instincts tell them that they will never even dream of being their commander's equal, let alone being a "dragon" themselves.

Yeah, it's actually pretty understandable for him to choose the more stable path as a kobold - he only turned to banditry out of desperation, and for him, a stable life where he would be free from starvation might as well be all he wanted. But we have to warn him the risk of being a kobold: if we were to be laid low by a monster like the ogre, the he'd be serving a cruel overlord that commits every atrocity imaginable, while he would be powerless to stop it - or even to stop himself from following the monster's commands. Human or not, William would be a loyal subject and a good warrior who punches above his weight, but it's up to him to decide whether he wants to take up our mantle one day and continue our mission to make the world a better place even after we die on the battlefield. There's no inherent "wrongness" in choosing one way to serve the society over another, and from the available information we have gathered, kobolds are indeed capable of higher reasoning - and this meant it's possible for them to make informed decisions.

... seriously, am I the only guy in the "transhuman/transspecies" group that wants to see Reynauld turning into a full dragon (with shapeshifting abilities ofc) by the end of the quest but want to see William turn back into a human (or at least into another non-servile species)? Granted, if he wants to stay a kobold then I'd be disappointed but understanding, sorta like how parents feel when they see their kid choosing to go down a career path that pays less or have less room for advancement.

... right, anyone archive this thread? It's 29 days now and I'm pretty sure we don't need a repeat of last time.

>>5848473
We're only on page 7, and the oldest thread on th board's 46 days old.

>>5847851
Either physics works, or it doesn't.

>>5848647
the laws of physics do not preclude the existence of free will

>>5848647
>>5848790
>>5847851
I'm not sure this is the place for this debate.

>>5848800
It was Fx0S3NUq who began this line of conversation

>>5848826
Sure, but at least that anon related it to the quest and discussions around its universe and characters. Debating if physics in the real world precludes free will is outaide the scope of that.

>>5849232
A on is fairly pointing out that it was your camp that started this line of reasoning nothing more

>>5849348
"My camp." Say that aloud. listen to yourself. this is a GAME, a fictional STORY. Calm down. there are no lines in the sand to be drawn here, no real consequences. Also, I tagged one of "my camp" in the "guys, pls stop" post as well, so it's not like I'm 'playing favorites' or whatever. I just think it would be better for all of us, especially QM, if we didn't shit up the thread debating physics or theology in a manner unrelated to the actual quest.

With that in mind...

>>5847824
>>5848647
We don't actually know how physics works in this post-apocalyptical magical reality where enormous hypercarnivores can be both incredibly tough and durable AND fly, and also beings can rapidly grow and shrink due to magic while violating conservation of mass. We don't even know fi souls or free will are real.

>>5849348
ust79+bU here.
If increasing the already wide devide between the transhumanists and human purists is your only contribution to the quest, then please calmly leave everyone alone. If not, then please state your previous IDs.

Also, going by your logic, how many "camp"s are there? Two? Three? Four?

And where are the lines drawn? Willing to allow Reynauld stay dragonborn form when fighting Onyx vs Reynauld have to return to human form ASAP? Wishing Reynauld to go full dragon after killing Onyx, or wishing him to turn back into a human after killing Onyx? Willing to accept William's decisions regardless whether he wanted to stay a kobold or turn back to a human? Assuming William would be better off staying a kobold? Thinking it's a moral failure for him (and Reynauld) to not return to a human? Thinking that Pink is actively undermining our authority vs thinking she's misguided in her approach vs thinking she's right? The world is more nuanced than a simplistic "with us or against us", and I highly doubt the consequences in a fictional story with minimal railroading is dire enough to warrant that sort of decision-making.

>>5849432
Support. Bonus point for... free will doesn't even matter when consent and coercion are the main topics of concern. What if everyone is predestined, perhaps by the works of a deity or a pantheon of deities, to make certain choices? What if every sapient species are only making their choices based on their past experiences, their own genetics, plus their own built-in RNG? Does it even matter?

The issue about being a kobold is that they CANNOT go against their masters' command, whether they personally like it or not, not if they have free will. Tell someone to feed you their children or their limbs, they'll probably treat it as a joke and tell you it's not funny, and when they realize you're serious about it, they'll call you a psycho and try to either flee or to fight back. Kobolds do not. Although they might personally hate the order, they literally cannot go against it, and their engineered psyche would tell them it's due their personal failure that such things are happening to them. Humans (and presumably most other ambulatory species in-universe) have built-in safeguards to maximize either their own chance of survival (commonly seen among species with higher birth rates, like rabbits) or their offsprings' (commonly seen among species with low birth rates, like humans or bears), but for kobolds? Not even that.
Religion doesn't even enter the question because first, deities (both in-universe and as discribed in the various IRL myths and scriptures) are almighty beings that cannot be killed by some random people with a sword or two; and second, they're astral and intangible beings whose powers and influences are vast but most likely not sitting on a throne right in front of you. That said, if we do view it from the lens of religion... that means kobolds are engineered to worship every other species as their "gods" and "goddesses", which.... is equally unpleasant.

It's already been proven the kobolds are a slave race without the ability to disobey their master. It would be monstrous to leave william like that. If you can't see that it isn't my problem you've already said you don't believe in free will so there really isn't anything more to be said between us. Our views are seemingly fundamentally incompatible

"William... I won't fight you on this, but I would like to make a few points against what you're saying." You say, carefully. Leaving him to his happiness is tempting, bit there's a sort of... Tainted happiness about it.
"As much as I adore the klan, I'm just not sure if I can consider you to be in full control of your actions. Serving a bigger creature is their reason to be, and they will fulfill it to their best ability.... Regardless of the moral character of that larger creature."
William scoffs.
"Not much different from most people then, yeah? Folks will go to authority figures all the time. They'll follow them to know what to do, even if they'll pretend it's for coin. Kobolts don't have to deal with any shame about it, at least."

You shake your head:
"But a person has the power to dissent! A tyrant gets overthrown. A dragon... Those beasts cause pain and misery, and Kobolts follow them. It's part of their nature, even when it is clearly against their best interest."

You look over to Dismas for a moment, thinking back about the ogre.

"William... I understand that you feel much happier, and I hope to be a knight worthy of a squire like you and Chad... But in good conscience, I just can't say for sure you *truly* want this."

William has a counterargument.
"Interesting idea you've got... But what if I'm not like them? Hell, what if it's culture over instinct? Because, ser... I can still tell you to go pound sand when it comes to this. Some people, hell, most people are probably better off turning back... Not me. I'm happier like this. I've got a good master too, don't I?"
He smiles, and you notice that his tone is still rather measured. He's honestly in rare form, being able to get his thoughts out so... Eloquently is perhaps not quite the word, but compared to the usual humming and hawing, it's a surprising twist.

"William... My proposal is that, once we have ways to turn people, perhaps we could turn you human for... A week, maybe two. If you still want to be a kobolt, fine. No harm no foul... But I want to try."

William looks... Touched, actually.
"You just wanna be sure if I'm happy, huh? Hells... I'd say that I really don't deserve you, ser, but I think I've given you enough of a verbal blowjob."

He chuckles, his scaly muzzle turning it into a high-pitched, wheezy chortle. "We'll do it your way, dragon... Try it the old way before we get back to this."

You can't help but notice he considers turning back a foregone conclusion... But you don't intend to fight him on that.

"Every person has potential, you know. You are no different."
William shrugs:
"I just have a lot more potential as a kobolt. Seems sad, but functionally... I'm just happy.

Right. However, collar suddenly stops you, and points ahead:
"There's a really obvious pitfall trap on the road, and Chad says he saw some People in those trees...

Ah.
Bandits.

>Call them out

>Go around

>Burn the Grove they're hiding in

>>5850791
>>Call them out
>"as a wandering knight I will give you this one chance to surrender and leave. Fight and you die"

>>5850807
support

>>5850791
>Call them out
>>"as a wandering knight I will give you this one chance to surrender and leave. Fight and you die"
(Sarah can translate)

>>5850791
>>Call them out
>>5850807
Support

We're probably approaching "time to archive" territory now. Page 9 and all.

"Alright, tell them I'm a wandering knight, and that they have one chance to buzz off."
"That word doesn't exist. You can't be a wandering knight out here, because you're not a knight unless you're working for somebody else. A baron, at least."
You pinch the bridge of your nose, which is a bit of a task with how malformed you are these days. You eventually settle for your eyebrows.
"Alright, remind them that I'm currently a six and a half foot tall dragon mutant, and that I'm very willing to let them go if they don't do anything stupid!" You say, not hiding your annoyance. Paracelsus smiles, and begins to speak that language. Her voice carries far, so there's no doubt they can hear it.
The response was quick and decisive, you suppose. Almost instantly, you see an arrow fly out of the tree, making you raise an arm as a reflex. Surprising both yourself and probably most people here, you actually manage to block the arrow... with your bare arm. The arrow is just a whittled piece of wood, no steel tip, and you suspect the draw strength of the bow isn't very impressive either. The little arrow embeds itself into the ground, and you take a deep breath.

"Tell them that I'm going to set them in fire in five seconds."
Paracelsus, her grin turning a little more malicious, translates it... and starts a count-down. At your best guess for the word "three", you see several people hop out of the trees, and make a run for it. Paracelsus, however, keeps counting down.
"They had their chance, if any of them still feel lucky, now's the time to show you were serious."
Well, this is just a few trees, so you're not concerned about starting a forest fire. A bit of a shame to see that patch of land go to waste, but...
It's being used by bandits.
No real loss there.

You take in a deep breath, and the bright flames quickly envelop the tree. You're quietly relieved to not hear any screaming, meaning they did understand the threat well enough to leave. Getting shot at probably wasn't a good idea from them, though-
A sudden gunshot takes you out of your thoughts, and you see that Snikt is now reloading her pistol.
"Snikt?" You ask, a little confused and annoyed.
"He shot you. He was the only one with a bow, and the arrow matched."
You look over to the body. Must have been one hell of a shot if he's just dead on the spot...
"I was letting them go."
"They tried to kill you. I think that's a little too forgiving, Dragon..."
Well...

When you pass the victim by, you see that he's still alive, at least. In shock, certainly, but probably possible to save the life of.
...

>leave him to die
He *did* try to kill you

>Save his life, then leave the wretch here.

>Save his life, take him to the nearest city for an arrest

>>5856376
>finish him
It's the merciful thing to do, without being unreasonably so.

>>5856376
>>Save his life, take him to the nearest city for an arrest

laws still exist and we have ended the threat, killing him now would not be self-defense it would be murder, or getting even just for the sake of revenge.

>>5857180
Do the laws in this country work that way? Do the laws in this country really matter to us?

>>5857183

Justice is justice, anon. Killing him now would only feed our bloodlust. He can't fight back; he isn't a threat to us anymore. Leaving him for dead would be unjust.

The essence of justice lies not just in punishing wrongdoing but also in being fair and measured in our response. In the heat of the moment, seeking revenge might feel satisfying, but it doesn't serve the higher purpose of justice. Our ideals of law are built on the idea of proportionality and fairness, not just vengeance. By sparing him when he is defenseless, we demonstrate that our commitment to justice extends beyond immediate retribution. It's about upholding a principle rather than succumbing to the raw emotions of the moment.

>>5856376
>>Save his life, then leave the wretch here.
interrogate him. i guess we can ask why he tried to attack us, basically whether it was the baron again or opportunistic bandits, but also we want the lay of the land, local information, that kind of stuff. If it's the baron, send the guy off with a message to "kill me yourself you coward."

>>5857188
I suppose. We've killed bandits before for less, though, viewing it as a duty a wandering knight to help keep the roads safe. This guy was especially unrepentant, unwise, and violent. When the others respected our warning and fled, he tried to kill us.

I'm fine either way the vote goes, though. I'd just rather not waylay our course to save this fool.

>>5857331
i support saving him to interrogate him, then we can do whatever with him (except if the baron sent him I'd like to use him as a messenger.)

also kind of excited for if they recognize Sarah somehow when we get to the royal court.

someone archive

>>5856857
Support

>>5858101
https://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/qstarchive/2023/5813050/

Been sick recently, so sorry for the lack of updates. I just figured I was going to let it drop off after the last update, frankly.

next thread soon

>>5863451
Feel better soon, QM!