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"Nice! Loving that energy, girl! LOVING it!" Orwell says, applauding Jackie's gusto. "That said, if errybody charges in there at once then you're gonna get freaking curb-stomped. Alpha's *built* to wreck groups and solo combatants alike, and with her health and regen where it is then the best we can probably hope for is a war of attrition."

"Orwell, could you give us an updated run-down of what we're dealing with?" You ask.

"Sure! I've got it all up here, so whenever you're ready to do your thing!" Orwell replies with a smile that begins to falter as everyone present looks to you. "You've...you can just use the empathic field, right?"

"I gave it up." Comes your simple reply, prompting Orwell's eyes to widen with shock. "I'll tell you all about it when we have that interview, but for now? Let's focus on Alpha."

"I...alright. Wow. Anyway, uh...here's what I've got. It's nothing major, but West Prime definitely made some tweaks since the last go-round."

>>WEST ALPHA (Updated)
>>HEALTH: 42,467% (+7134%)
>>BIO: N/A
>>ACT: 6/6
>>RELICS: Variable, prefers augmentation-based and mix of melee/speed enhancers. Possesses four Tier 5 Forge Cores, Generation Halo.
>>IMMUNE: Acid, Frost, Blunt, Crushing, STUN, SEVERING
>>ABSORB: Heat, Elec
>>UNIQUE - Unfeeling: Utterly immune to any and all positive or negative emotion-influencing abilities from any source.

"Not a lot of difference, but enough to require a bit more forethought." Gina muses, whipping out her phone as it crackles with Neuromantic energy, tapping away as she updates her notes.

"Aside from some straight-forward buffs, there was one other thing I noticed." Orwell adds thoughtfully. "Alpha's been keeping some Relics on her person. Consumables by the looks of them, and she hasn't used them during the last two fights. She's been saving them."

"Seems we're not the only side that's had ample time to dwell on the other...she'll be ready for us. But not *all* of us."

You turn, surveying the eight other brave souls that've decided to throw in their lot with yours, for better oor worse. There's even your four Dream Daughters, the motley crew of your former foes having taken up arms to protect themselves and those that they've come to call friends. The might of your family, the dogged optimism of the Barbers, and the finely-honed teamwork of the Midnight Crew - of all that you have at your disposal, you can only hope it'll be enough to end Doctor West's finest creation...

...and, someday, the Doctor herself.

>>"I think we have everything we need...so let's end this, shall we?" [Decide battleground/teams/Relics, then initiate encounter]

>>"There's one or two Relics I want to craft before we goad Alpha into a confrontation..." [Choose Relics to Craft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b_-8s0tin7DCQxITm6C69QULRnM_ibDfg18iV4dc7Fc/edit?usp=sharing ]

>>Write-In

AND

>>Choose elemental resistances/immunities for HOLLY, UZU, JOHANNA, and B'NI.

YOU ARE IN CONTROL

>>4208306
>Quest Fan Works: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1comL20X2jUrPO0p7QMdF

Not sure what is up with this link but for some reason i cant open it. i only get an error message.

Anyway its good to be back

(Gentlemen, it's good to be back. Voting shall remain open for the next four hours, and I do hope that everyone had a good week.)

(Regarding the combat guide, my computer ate it but I'm in the middle of reconstructing it as we speak, so if there's anything aside from resistance/immunity/absorption mechanics and the like that you'd like somewhat clarified in a simple manner, then by all means let me know and I'll add it to the guide.)

>>4208318
good to be back. week was decent enough, and hope yours was too.

BHOP, whats the most hill-heavy area we have encountered so far?

>>4208312
>>HEALTH: 42,467% (+7134%)
Oh, damn it, she did get a Health score whose last digit is higher than the first, just in case we REV VITA'd her as an opening move. I knew that West was going to do that with the upgrades, I fucking knew it.

Okay, I have a few questions.

>Does Alpha's scaling speed boost count constructs as opponents?
I'd hope that swarmlings can just be assumed to not count, but important to ask all the same. Something I have more doubt about is things like the Many or Spirit Shells. I don't want us using them to supplement groups to backfire on us.

>How is "opponent" qualified for terms of someone who doesn't engage Alpha in a fight?
Would Dorian running in and grabbing someone only to immediately extract them trigger Alpha's "match speed to fastest opponent" boost? Because that greatly decreases our ability to cycle through groups, if so.

>What new swarmling types does Shu have?
We should have gotten Murphlings and Crowlings from the new skills acquired. I can see the Murphlings being potentially useful here.

>Does the Generating Halo count as a Generator ability for purposes of anti-class effects?
We have some abilities that make Generator powers automatically backfire. We also can potentially craft anti-Generator ammo for guns, like Magpie used.

>>4208318
Yeah, good to be back. I've been simultaneously looking forward to and dreading this Vein.

>>4208316
(Odd...it worked fine on my computer. Here's the updated link.)

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1comL20X2jUrPO0p7QMdFinwAwdXHre2F9A5bdXif7_k/mobilebasic

>>4208320
(That would be the gemstone-like cliffs leading up to the Dissassociated. Before they get too steep, there's an area that's part skin and part humoral 'gem'.)

>>4208323
(I'll be answering these questions shortly, so thanks for bearing with me.)

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>>4208318
the weekend was good.
My players in my DND Capaing encountered a demigod while making plans to move against a Draco Lich

I hope your week was good.

My own was a time crunch trying to get all the pictures together while i had my vacation here is what i think is probably my best drawn picture of the bunch

>>4208327
Thank you very much. it was telling me that the document didn't exist or something.

Now it works

>>4208327
alright, let me rephrase that BHOP sorry.
what is the most hill-like area we could justify using given our usual morals?

>>4208328
Oh, that's a really nice drawing. Those are the Forge Tentacles, I assume? Cool, you did a good job on this. One negative critique I have is that the face looks a bit off, but given that she's a weird mutant I'm not sure how much of that is intentional. Something about the nose ridge, it feels a bit snake-like.

>>4208332
>it feels a bit snake-like.
accidental but pretty much the intended effect. She will later turn into a much more snakelike creature due to the Poison Unnatural predator power she picked up.

Not to mention i suck at drawing faces. The normal body proportions are quite easy if i use a 3D Model as the base but Noses are a pain to draw. Especially if your new to it like i am

>>4208318
>>4208327
also, you forgot the Viscera Vincula on the Relics sheet.

>>4208323

>>Does Alpha's scaling speed boost count constructs as opponents? I'd hope that swarmlings can just be assumed to not count, but important to ask all the same. Something I have more doubt about is things like the Many or Spirit Shells. I don't want us using them to supplement groups to backfire on us.

(Given what Orwell’s seen, Alpha still scales off constructs, but to a lesser degree than normal combatants. It typically takes ten constructs to equal one extra combatant for the sake of Alpha’s speed/ACT buff.)

>>How is "opponent" qualified for terms of someone who doesn't engage Alpha in a fight? Would Dorian running in and grabbing someone only to immediately extract them trigger Alpha's "match speed to fastest opponent" boost? Because that greatly decreases our ability to cycle through groups, if so.

(As long as he’s gone by the beginning/end of a given round, then he doesn’t trigger the ability in question. Now, she may forge something to help mitigate this, but you’d be able to get away with this trick for a while. Now, the second Dorian takes a combat action then speed-matching *would* be in effect, so take care that he doesn’t make any openly hostile moves.)

>>What new swarmling types does Shu have? We should have gotten Murphlings and Crowlings from the new skills acquired. I can see the Murphlings being potentially useful here.

(Ah, let me update those. Thank you for the reminder.)

>>Does the Generating Halo count as a Generator ability for purposes of anti-class effects? We have some abilities that make Generator powers automatically backfire. We also can potentially craft anti-Generator ammo for guns, like Magpie used.

(If it wasn’t max-level, it would. As it stands, its effects have been tied into Alpha’s forging process in an unnatural way, so it’s not working the way it would if it was being used by a normal Daughter.)

>>4208318
>>Yeah, good to be back. I've been simultaneously looking forward to and dreading this Vein.

(Likewise, on both counts.)

>>4208328
(This looks absolutely fantastic! Nicely done.)

>>4208331
(The mushroom-infested plains outside Almath would likely be your best bet. Alternatively, the gently-sloping hills outside the Envious City could also work well.)

>>4208344
(The confounded Vincula somehow always escapes me. I’ll hunt it down shortly.)

>>4208312
Partial Vote;

>Battleground; Let November and Dorian decide, though keep it away from anyplace populated. Hills would also be preferred.
>Basic Plan; Have everyone mix up both who is in combat and who is on whos team. No one stays in combat for more than 2 Turns, and each team that tags out reconfigures itself with others randomly to avoid West getting used to the teams themselves either. Dorian avoids being counted as in Combat while he helps as best he can to get teams in and out of combat. Note, our goal is to remove the 4 Cores from West Alpha, over simply beating her down directly. Avoid enhancing one's speed beyond what ones current teammates can match.
>Opening; November and anyone else who can match her range, will start combat by bombarding West Alpha from as far away as possible with her Gauss Rifle. While this is happening, all teams will spread out, taking a different position around West Alpha. From there, whatever team West Alpha moves towards first will open, but otherwise if necessary for us to attack first, Shus Team will.

>Initial Teams;
>>Shu, Sia, Quinn, and Isabelle.
>>Jackie, Sugar, Julia, Amara, and Holly.
>>Rosa, Ace, Rath, Francine, and Uzu.
>>Gina, Keane, Betty, November, and Johanna.

still working on Relic Loadouts and DD immunities, but just wanted to get my initial ideas out, aswell as say Dorian should probably not take Intertus, and should take healing Relics like Surgeons, as he wont have any better use of any extra time he has than to heal folks up as he moves them, and Keane and Francine wont be able to be sure they will be in position to do such a job, aswell as them getting too caught up in it might weaken the lines too hard at times.

>>4208352
alright, either of those works then.

>>4208352
>It typically takes ten constructs to equal one extra combatant for the sake of Alpha’s speed/ACT buff.)

So spawning large amounts of constructs is a bad idea. So we will need to craft quality constructs. Urgh

>>4208352
>(Given what Orwell’s seen, Alpha still scales off constructs, but to a lesser degree than normal combatants. It typically takes ten constructs to equal one extra combatant for the sake of Alpha’s speed/ACT buff.)
Well, that's going to seriously impede Shu. But then again, Alpha is built to counter us. I was really hoping for some Many spam to take down Alpha's Relics, too, but if we can't have too many constructs on the field that's going to limit that tactic. I was thinking ten Many each using Murphy's Mandate, which given the Many's bonuses for acting in concert would, by my rough math, leave Alpha with only a 6% chance of spawning a Relic. But that's a bad idea, since ten Many would count as an entire extra combatant on the field.

>(As long as he’s gone by the beginning/end of a given round, then he doesn’t trigger the ability in question. Now, she may forge something to help mitigate this, but you’d be able to get away with this trick for a while. Now, the second Dorian takes a combat action then speed-matching *would* be in effect, so take care that he doesn’t make any openly hostile moves.)
Okay, good. I'm thinking that we should also have Dorian make his familiars in advance. Normally we'd let them spawn from people getting downed, but if Dorian's not going to be "in combat" when people get knocked out, that's not going to work. So might as well have additional hands to grab people and run off with.

>(Ah, let me update those. Thank you for the reminder.)
Cool.

>(If it wasn’t max-level, it would. As it stands, its effects have been tied into Alpha’s forging process in an unnatural way, so it’s not working the way it would if it was being used by a normal Daughter.)
Ah, darn. I was hoping that triggering it to backfire could jam up her systems, but at max level it doesn't count for that? Too bad.

>>4208352
oh, BHOP, are any Hyenas coming, or is it a 'if they are, not yet' thing? and what of Tinker Tailor?

>>4208355
>>4208312
fuck it, heres what little ive got i know i want for Relics, but honestly im at a loss overall. im also wondering if any of our initiative modifier relics should even be touched, as its hard to know exactly how those overlap with speed.... also speed and movement is hard to know exactly how they overlap too, now that i think about it.

Defiants Relic Loadouts;
>Shu; Contender[Maxim](x3 Parabellum, x3 Honey each), Matrons,

>>Holly; Uzi.
>>Johanna; Hydras Heart.
>>Isabelle; Shawl.
>>Uzu; Gamma Pharynx.

>Gina; The Spine, Membrum Automata,

>Rath;

>Julia; Cutis Tractus, Manus Caelorum,

>Amara; Vocem Virtutis(), Shawl(upgraded), Hearth Rod, Red Devils, Vocalis Nocere.

>Francine; Spectacles, Sui Interitus,

>November;

>Dorian; GoreGrowth(Verurteilung), Gear, Surgeons, Sui Sacrificium,

Dream Daughters Immunities;
>Holly;
>Uzu;
>Johanna;
>Isabelle;

>>4208371
Oh yeah one thing we do need to do before we can leave. We need to upgrade the Hydras heart to remove the drawback that taking fire damage removes all regen from the daughter instead of just taking away the extra regen granted by the relic.

>>4208376
not something we can just do. maybe Tinker could but we would have to ask. also dont personally think its a big enough deal to put everything on hold over.

>>Murphlings (HP++, DEF+, SPD+): These stout, asymmetrical swarmlings passively exude a field of disaster, with each one boasting a 10% chance for a foe’s constructs and Relics to be generated as malformed creations. However, attacks inflicted by Murphlings add to this chance with a stacking 2% bonus to the swarmling that inflicted the strike, allowing a swift Murphling to become a disastrous force to be reckoned with, all their own. (Cost: 80% HEALTH, 40% BIO)

>>Crowlings (ATK++, SPD++, CRIT+): An alarmingly vicious variant of your typical swarmling, these feathered fiends benefit from the boons granted by both your Core skill tree and the Murderous Flock ability in addition to boasting greatly enhanced attack and speed. (Cost: 20% BIO)

>>4208365
(The Hyenas may come if they're able to deal with a situation that's arisen on their end, but they fully intend to join you.)

>>4208371
Well, Shu should have the Relics we got off of Magpie, I think, the Longcoat and Pendant. Solid defense boost, and Shu's going to need them if our theory that Alpha will target her proves correct.

Rath needs the Gutgrab Daggers, naturally, Alpha's immune to Blunt so she needs to make her punches Piercing.

I think the Margrave's Blade would be a good idea for November, give her something to parry with.

November also needs us to craft some belts of Radiant-damage ammo before we leave, her guns do Piercing/Heat and Alpha absorbs Heat, so we need to keep that damage from being mitigated.

Arbiter's Judgement should go on November, too, even if it can't go into one of her slots. As written, it only gives the bonus round to allies in the same zone, so we want her to get that first shot off. Actually, if we're doing that we should group our snipers all together onto one team. November, Gina with Lyudmila's Welcome, maybe Rath throwing Boils at long range, and any other distance attacks this party has.

Side note, BHOP >>4208392: Does channeling Ivory Aeturnum through Lyudmila's Welcome with its level four ability allow each shot from the Welcome to count as three bullets? That could be a good opener. I'm tempted to go with a Cancerous Payload, instead, but there's no way that West didn't give Alpha a counter to that.

>>4208318
The muse had me practically writing nearly 24/7. I got so many important scenes done in regards to dialogue and key events, but it's also forced me to revise my planning of the number of possible chapters involved as well as the involvement of the cast in Cradleton.

Some spoiled hints I'm willing to divulge as sneak preview hints:

An amalgam will be involved. It's a fucking monster. I had to write down it's entire biography and diet (as well as what kind of daughters it ate) in order make sure it stays true to the setting according to my notes.

Carter will definitely get a relic weapon that is better suited for a gentlemen of his caliber.

>>4208381
>>4208376
>>4208360
I'm not sure if any of you actually considered this, but have we ever crafted specialized bullets for our guns or Gina?

Because some of the bullets I theorycrafted in the previous vein could be useful.

>>4208404
>sneak preview hints
Sounds interesting. Definitely will be interesting to read.

Looking forward to that Amalgam. And nice to hear that muse got to you. That zone is something pretty comforting once you reached it. Though it can be infuriating to try and get there

>>4208401
>Shu
yeah, sure on those i suppose.

>Rath
hrm, actually a very good point, alright.

>November
im not sure the Margrave is good here at all. she wont be near the same person to use it, so she wont be able to really parry any better with it than any other relic, as if shes not blocking for someone else, theres no innate advantage to it over anything else solid. i mean... unless she can mark her own body or the core inside of herself as the 'object'? if not, i disagree its worth taking.

as for the ammo though, agreed. ill toss Radiant onto the Uzi too.

as for Arbiters, again, im not sure thats a good idea. it again depends on exactly how things overlap and what they count as. initiative could be part/related to speed too heavily to risk it.

and no, we dont want or expect November to stay at sniper range. as stated, sure, they can help her with the opening barrage if possible, but once thats done November will be in the rotation with everyone else.

>>4208392
a few things here id like answers to, if you dont mind.

>>4208404
we have not, but i also dont remember those and am unsure if they ever got to a point it felt right using them.

>>4208409
In my case when the muse gets to me it's more infuriating to me that irl events force me to put the pen down, such as eating or sleeping.

>>4208415
>im not sure the Margrave is good here at all. she wont be near the same person to use it, so she wont be able to really parry any better with it than any other relic, as if shes not blocking for someone else, theres no innate advantage to it over anything else solid. i mean... unless she can mark her own body or the core inside of herself as the 'object'? if not, i disagree its worth taking.
I'm just trying to fill out slots, I guess. There's not really anything that great to put in November's arm slots, at least the Margrave means she can fill that role if need be.

>as for Arbiters, again, im not sure thats a good idea. it again depends on exactly how things overlap and what they count as. initiative could be part/related to speed too heavily to risk it.
>and no, we dont want or expect November to stay at sniper range. as stated, sure, they can help her with the opening barrage if possible, but once thats done November will be in the rotation with everyone else.
Well, we can always ask BHOP if Arbiter's Judgement counts as a speed booster. I don't think it does, but let's make sure. BHOP >>4208392, can we use Arbiter's Judgement safely?

As for staying at range, no, I'm not trying to suggest that. I'm just talking about the opener. Arbiter's Judgement only does anything on the first turn, so after that initial barrage it doesn't matter. The sniper team is free to disperse and merge with other teams as need be after that.

>>4208404
Ooh, got to love giant super-monsters with a history. I look forward to seeing it.

>>4208425
but if we're opening up with a surprise attack, it wouldn't really matter i dont think. depends on exactly how 'combat' is counted i suppose, but with the point being such a long ranged barrage i cant see them needing a boost like that.

as for the arm slot, maybe, but id still think theres something better, aswell that again also depends on the whole initiative debacle. least she has SOME options for her arms, unlike the almost nothing for her legs...

>>4208401
(I would rule that channeling it does, yes.)

>>4208425
(Arbiter's Judgement is absolutely safe to use, as it voids Alpha's counter.)

>>4208415
(Regarding the Margrave, November's in a unique position to where she certainly may delegate her Core or a Relic as a valid protection target. If there's anything else you'd like to know, then feel free to ask.)

>>4208435
>Arbiter's Judgement is absolutely safe to use, as it voids Alpha's counter.
so... is this then implying Initiative IS considered part of speed? as that seems to imply if it wasn't for the caveat of Arbiter, the fact its an initiative relic would still proc the speed equalization on Alpha.

>>4208435
also, for the Spiritus Shells, the original Resistance is only for elemental damage types. is the sacrificing both Resistances for one Immunity still limited to elemental damage types, or does the immunity expand to any damage type?

>>4208436
(Yes, it is. There's a bit of a weird interplay of speed and ACTs that have an interaction, and due to that difference it can get a little confusing as to how speed and the like is normally counted.)

>>4208440
(It's specifically for an elemental damage type, at curent level.)

>>4208446
>(Yes, it is. There's a bit of a weird interplay of speed and ACTs that have an interaction, and due to that difference it can get a little confusing as to how speed and the like is normally counted.)
Okay, so Arbiter's Judgement is a safe initiative booster, everything else is a danger. Great. Later, Pacekeeper's Box and Crimson Jester's Masque, you're just going to make more trouble for us in this fight.

>>4208446
got it. thanks.

>>4208425
yeah so all our initiative relics are useless, not just our speed relics. fun.

>>4208463
Acid resistance is redundant, Kynar Chitin gives our Dream Daughters immunity to it. Let's go with Electricity, instead, get the whole spread of standard elemental damage. Acid immunity, Heat, Electricity and Cold resistance. Other than that, looks good.

>>4208312
>>4208355
>>4208371
right, Orders, amended. sorry for any bamboozle, but a certain relic tripped me up aswell;

>Battleground; Let November and Dorian decide, though keep it away from anyplace populated. Hills would also be preferred.
>Basic Plan; Have everyone mix up both who is in combat and who is on whose team. No one stays in combat for more than 2 Turns, and each team that tags out reconfigures itself with others randomly to avoid West getting used to the teams themselves either. Dorian avoids being counted as in Combat while he helps as best he can to get teams in and out of combat. Note, our goal is to remove the 4 Cores from West Alpha, over simply beating her down directly. Avoid enhancing one's speed beyond what ones current teammates can match.
>Opening; November and anyone else who can match her range, will start combat by bombarding West Alpha from as far away as possible with her Gauss Rifle. While this is happening, all teams will spread out, taking a different position around West Alpha. From there, whatever team West Alpha moves towards first will open, but otherwise if necessary for us to attack first, Shus Team will.

>Initial Teams;
>>Shu, Sia, Quinn, and Isabelle.
>>Jackie, Sugar, Julia, Amara, and Holly.
>>Rosa, Ace, Rath, Francine, and Uzu.
>>Gina, Keane, Betty, November, and Johanna.

Defiants Relic Loadouts;
>Shu; Contender[Maxim](x3 Parabellum, x3 Honey each), Matrons, Gunslingers Longcoat, Paranoid Pendant.

>>Holly; Uzi[Boatload of Radiant Magazines].
>>Johanna; Hydras Heart.
>>Isabelle; Shawl.
>>Uzu; Gamma Pharynx.

>Gina; The Spine, Membrum Automata.

>Rath; Gutgrab Daggers, Ventrem Lanceam.

>Julia; Cutis Tractus, Manus Caelorum.

>Amara; Vocem Virtutis(Upgrade; RHO and NUKA)(Free; NUKA), Shawl(upgraded), Hearth Rod, Red Devils, Vocalis Nocere

>Francine; Spectacles, Sui Interitus.

>November;[Boatload of Radiant Ammo], Arbiters Judgement(Unslotted), Montags(Unslotted), Margraves(Arm), Dainsleif(Arm), Ego(Leg), Nail(Leg), Whistle(Head)(GRA NUKA), Vincula(Chest), Artisanal Rebuke(Core).

>Dorian; GoreGrowth(Verurteilung), Gear, Surgeons, Sui Sacrificium.

Dream Daughters Immunities;
>All; Acid and Frost Resistance.

>>4208468
>>4208470
>>4208312
sure, amending slightly;
Dream Daughters Immunities;
>All; Elec and Frost Resistance.

>>4208312
Supporting>>4208470
and >>4208489

>>4208489
Alright, cool, let's do this.

>>4208312
Supporting

>>4208470
>>4208489


Hey, weird thought: Matron's Stoicism gives Shu the same resistances and immunities her "Brood" does. Does that only apply to permanent changes to their resistances from level investment, or do temporary boosts like customizing the Spirit Shells count too? Does Shu have resistance to Elec and Frost now?

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>>4208495
i have absolutely no idea.

>>4208446
but i know someone who would!

>>4208495
(She absolutely resists frost and elec, now.)

>>4208503
Neato. Combine that with the Longcoat and Shu is pretty safe against non-Radiant elemental damage. Now to hope that Psychica Spiralis is enough to keep her from getting punched to death with non-elemental damage.

>>4208505
probably still not worth changing, but i just realized with how Immunities and Resistances all stack, we probably could get Shu and the Shells Absorption to Acid or Heat if we traded the Shells Resistances for an Immunity.

probably not worth it here as West Alpha will probably shift what she tries on us, but something to keep in mind for later fights.

>>4208509
I'm not sure it even works that way anymore. I know that resistance no longer stacks to immunity, less certain if immunity can stack to absorption.

>>4208514
what? Resistances still very much stack to immunity. all BHOP did was increase how many it takes to make Immunity, and then how many makes Absorption. its still all technically just X levels of Resistance though. think its... 4? 5? levels of Resistance is Immunity, then id assume the same amount more to Absorption, then technically he said theres things after that but doubt we'll ever see those. technically, Immunity and absorption is just X levels of resistance being given a different name due to getting new effects.

>>4208518
No, they're separate things entirely. Resistance has diminishing returns so that it can't stack to total immunity, and abilities that ignore immunity don't necessarily ignore resistance. https://pastebin.com/WxHMhVhq

Bleh. I got caught up with something during the past hour, so I didn't really get a chance to discuss the battle plans. Also, the timing of this vein has put a damper on my muse as now I'm torn between participating in this battle vein and focusing my energies on letting the muse flow to keep it going and go on a writing spree in order to fill out the chapters and finish Carter's story.

>>4208531
i suggest you keep following your muse.

Getting back into the grove can be really grueling once your out.

But that is just my personal opinion.

>>4208529
nothing about that says or implied Resistance doesn't still equal Immunity and Absorption eventually, and said stacking is what BHOP has stated several times in the past. ill trust what he was stated in thread over an incomplete document he is still working on and has not officially posted.

>>4208535
>Levels of resistance may be granted by both abilities and Relics, with resistance stacking to grant greater damage mitigation, albeit with diminishing returns.

This says diminishing returns.
If we assume that it is function that is somewhat formed like a curve it is very likely it will never reach 100% Resistance.

>abilities that negate resistance do nothing to immunity or absorption

if immunity's are not affected by abilities that reduce resistances and the other way around, he makes a good case for not being all part of the same thing.

>>4208535
>>4208542
At least that is how that reads to me.

I can be wrong though

>>4208535
Yes, he's said that several times in the past, and then we expressed concerns with the game balance of the system and he changed it. Hold up, I'm looking for the quote. I've got him saying "I believe I've settled on them being separate, I'll have a finished version later", but I'm not seeing the finished version.

>>4208542
>>4208545
>>4208547
well yeah, but even before any changes when BHOP did 100% confirm Resistances lead to Immunities, Immunities were still, er, immune to resistance effects. that didnt and doesnt mean anything, due to it already working like that.

as for otherwise, i read it more of the fact that, once you gain Immunity, you arent gaining anything else from Resistances. they're just extra levels to get to Absorption, then whatever is next. pretty heavy diminishing returns for sure.

>>4208547
all he said and all we were concerned about was how fast we gained Immunities and Absorption, due to the fact it took like only two levels to equal an Immunity, then like 3 for Absorption, yet he was handing Resistances out like candy. only change he said he made then was bumping up how many equals each.

>>4208553
>all he said and all we were concerned about was how fast we gained Immunities and Absorption, due to the fact it took like only two levels to equal an Immunity, then like 3 for Absorption, yet he was handing Resistances out like candy. only change he said he made then was bumping up how many equals each.
Yes, that's what he initially proposed, in Vein 33. He later said in Vein 34 that he had been doing testing behind the scenes and favored a system where resistance and immunity are completely separate. I don't think there's been any further commentary, though the pastebin does seem to suggest that they're separate if having both resistance and immunity to a damage type is possible and even potentially desirable.

>>4208579
and im positive since then he has re-stated they are not. he also could be talking about how immunity gains extra defenses, over the stacking methods being removed. i simply disagree but whatever, we wont get anywhere arguing over something that has and still is way too vague for us to be interpreting ourselves.

fuck it. honestly im just growing tired of this. not just this topic, but im beginning to just not enjoy this system at all anymore. im honestly not even looking forward to this fight really anymore, even from just a combat perspective. its just getting all too annoying and cumbersome. the rules are no longer really at all clear even to the base level we need them to be in areas, and the bloat often starts to make it feel like trying to dig through a deck of cards for the perfect level for the situation, over letting actual creativity take the lead in fights.

>>4208587
I'm mostly okay with the system, but it does definitely feel sometimes like I rifle through the deck, as you put it. Just looking at all the many options we have available, checking to make sure there isn't a feature that would save us from whatever nasty situation we're in. I mean, I like that we have these wide arsenals of interesting niche abilities, those times when we realize we've got some cool trick we can pull out are really cool. Like when we realized that we could detonate the landscape against Magpie, that was awesome. But it certainly would make things flow easier if we had more tightly constructed power sets. Less time spent on agonizing over whether we're missing something important, if we could have solved things more simply and feeling like we're screwing up by not making optimal use of our powers.

>>4208593
i still love alot about it too, but i dunno, the issues like i mentioned and the bloat just... feel like the parts i love are starting to get overshadowed, if we even understand properly what we can do at all. id prefer fewer tricks and such if it allowed it to feel like we could use what we have more freely, over it feeling often like there no point because an otherwise more boring option is just so suited to the situation of course we're gonna use it over anything, but alot of those really are just a more simple, straight forward way of doing it. like pressing a button, or something, over actually going out and doing something yourself.

and i mean, we cant even actually be 100% positive what BHOP means when he says 'construct' in an ability, as just one example of many.

>>4208602
Yeah, I get that. I think some of our best abilities are the ones that are inherently versatile, with level-ups expanding on options instead of giving us entirely new ones. That way we can just hold a generalized idea of the ability in our head instead of having to devote memory to every individual facet. Like Hundred-Handed, that's a good example.

>>4208531
(Given how difficult I know it can be to get into the creative groove, my advice would be to focus on your current story, if I'm being honest. You're a great writer, and flexing that creativity is important.)

>>4208587
>>4208593
(In regards to the concerns you've both put out there, I'd like to say that the tweaked system isn't just for resistances, but combat feel as a whole. Digging deep into the numbers, resistances, and the like is my job, and given the complexity of the system, that's the very reason why I opted to make the interface the way it is - your clever plans and off-the-wall strategies utilizing a strange toolkit of abilities are the things at the center of this system, and what I want to highlight as opposed to making this an exercise in you and the other players crunching numbers.)

(I could tell you the specifics, but then it all just comes down to counting cards and playing an RTS with everyone simply doing the obvious, middle-of-the-road options. Thats no fun, and it goes against exactly what I wanted to have the sustem be in the first place. Blow up the ground under Magpie's feet. Use your Hundred-Handed's instant constriction to make a rail gun. Slap Platelings on foes and yank them into yoyr Ravenous Maw as a free action. Telefrag people with dickish Rook shenanigans. Be weird, be clever, and I will work to make it happen. I wanted the rules to be a platform and toolkit from which interesting things can spring, and not a shackle that'll hold you down.)

(The numbers are for me to fiddle with and quantify your awesome plans, and aren't at the heart of the system. YOU are the heart and soul of this system, and indeed this very game.)

(Now, all that being said - works been a nightmare today, so I'll be posting as soon as I am able. Odds are that you'll encounter West Alpha this evening, with there being plenty of time to plan your opening surprise round, if that's how you wish to play this. Thank you for bearing with me as we've recently been cut to half staff, and I am glad to hear everyone had a good past week.)

>>4208645
>>4208622
>>4208602
>(I could tell you the specifics, but then it all just comes down to counting cards and playing an RTS with everyone simply doing the obvious, middle-of-the-road options. Thats no fun, and it goes against exactly what I wanted to have the sustem be in the first place. Blow up the ground under Magpie's feet. Use your Hundred-Handed's instant constriction to make a rail gun. Slap Platelings on foes and yank them into your Ravenous Maw as a free action. Telefrag people with dickish Rook shenanigans. Be weird, be clever, and I will work to make it happen. I wanted the rules to be a platform and toolkit from which interesting things can spring, and not a shackle that'll hold you down.)
SEE!?
THIS IS WHAT GETS MY GROOVE GOING. WHEN WE GO OFF THE RAILS WITH CREATIVITY. WHERE WE HAVE FREE REIGN TO GET WIGGLY AND WEIRD WITH CREATIVE MIND GAMES.

But then I have to deal with the council.

le sigh.

>>4208645
Sorry to hear work is so busy OP.

I take it your team has been reduced so much due to the Virus?

>>4208645
no, i get that, but its not numbers that are really the issue. the issue(or well, one of the two mentioned), is its starting to feel like those numbers are being replaced by a deck instead, which isnt any less constricting. its at times an odd case of giving us TOO much, to the point we often have no excuse to be creative, over basically playing the 'card' of say randomly, 'Ignition level 5' or something. its becoming a slog where at times or with some abilities it just feels like we constantly have to dig through yet again level upon level for one line and one ability to use, over just thinking up another way, because there no excuse NOT to press the 'easy' button when we have it and characters lives are on the line if we dont. the issue is you cant give us high stakes then expect us to experiment over a surefire solution you have given us, even if theres no fun or creativity in the surefire solution.

it also as said doesn't help that none of that matters when half the time we're guessing wildly about what something does.

i appreciate and love you keep the numbers overall to yourself, but to me personally i just feel like you've ended up replacing it with something not at all any different when it comes down to it. at least, way more often than is fun.

as for work, sorry to hear that, and hope it evens out a bit for you. not sure what we have to really hold us off that long before we hit West Alpha honestly, aside of course from your work extending voting times.

>>4208649
maybe actually read the conversation and what people are saying about that?

>>4208645
>Now, all that being said - works been a nightmare today, so I'll be posting as soon as I am able.
I'm sorry to hear that, BHOP. Take as much time as you need, and I hope that your day eases up.

As for the issues with the system, like I said I appreciate all the weird little abilities we have, when we do think of a way to use them they're awesome. It just feels like sometimes we've got too many of them, and it gives choice paralysis where I spend too much time looking through the character sheets wondering which is the best move. I should be coming up with creative uses of more basic powers, but there are so many options that my mind often goes in the direction of searching for an existing module instead of crafting a new one. I wonder if it might be an artifact of the idea that Shu was originally supposed to be a solo agent, having lots of distinct modules to the power sets make more sense when there's only one character for the players to keep track of.

>>4208656
>maybe actually read the conversation and what people are saying about that?

Sorry about lack of reading comprehension. my attention's been divided between the vein and Carter's story.

>>4208669
its fine.
also forgot to mention earlier, glad to hear its chugging along so well on that. as said before, take your time and dont feel a need to rush.

>>4208645
>>4208656
>>4208661
>>4208651
Not sure if any of you people have seen these but dear lord. The Resident Evil series gets very unsettling when everyone has their facial animations increased to 500%

RE2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDa42EDB96g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZW91Vowz8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZs-C2fFmk
RE3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOFDeWlCPmU

>>4208731
Interesting. Never was interested in the Resident Evil Series but this look actually hilarious in the beginning with 200%. Very exagerrated

At 1000% well..... that is the stuff nightmares are made of.

That is probably what the insides of a very high level Glutton looks like.
Or what a xenobite can do to a persons face


The 500% ones.... Well those guys just look like inbred shitheads

>>4208747
I sometimes imagine pure glutton daughters who have at least 1 level of vitruvian in their power sets acting this way because of the sheer amount of flapping flesh that just spasms when they talk.

(Gentlemen, I just got back home. Work's reduced the available hours, so as a bit of silver lining I'll have more time to write for the foreseeable future.)

(As such, I just finished a quick lunch and I'll be writing shortly.)

>>4208731
(Oh my word, these always get me. Thanks for sharing, these are hilarious.)

>>4208656
>>4208661
(I appreciate your candor, and I'd like to figure out some way to make things a little simpler on your end. Would something akin to 'character guides' work, essentially being a distillation of the character's abilities, either in a few short paragraphs or as an additional card to be placed in front of the skill trees to offer a quick look at one's options in simple language, without getting too complex? What are your thoughts?)

>>4208769
oh dang, well while im sure the cut down hours suck, i do hope you at least enjoy your extra free time.

as for the abilities, im unsure. the problem isnt i dont know the basic functions of the abilities, but of the often very necessary details of the individual levels and finding them. im honestly just pretty sure the system couldn't be fixed in a way that would really alleviate the issue without heavily revamping the whole system and level-up situation in and of itself.

the problem sorta is, if we did or even just already did what you're suggesting, we would be gimping ourselves by ignoring a massive heap of levels, but as stated the alternative often feels like shifting through walls of texts to make sure we're utilizing said levels to their fullest, but that often feels tremendously tedious and as if some levels take some choice away due to how silly it would be not to use them.

it would also get harder and harder for anything like that to truly be giving a rundown of a characters abilities and their uses as both the abilities and how many we have expands, and might be difficult to keep it feeling accurate and expansive enough to not be horribly gimping a character without it too just feeling somewhat bloated, at least as things go along.

to some degree i think the issue just wraps back around to the format. 15-20 levels with wonderful detail and usage out of each level seems amazing on paper... until you have seven characters each with 6+ abilities on them and 5-20 levels per ability with such uniqueness and usage trying to be squeezed out of most levels. and then relics stacked on top of that too is just... alot.

>>4208769
ok, i just want to put something into perspective here.

while obviously we're not at this point yet, im just trying to point out how many things, with JUST levelables, we Anons might have to keep track of or shift through. and yes, i understand and appreciate you aswell do, but if anything its just more of the same point.

7 characters, each with at least 6 levelable abilities.
15 max levels per usually. 90 unique levels to keep track of max if we gain no new abilities and ignoring hybrids.
+5 at least for the Core, so 95 bare minimum for a full build. per character.
we have seven.
thats 665 unique levels as a max build to keep track of if we gain nothing new ever.

and that is without augments and relics being taken into account.
even assuming a MINIMUM of 5 levels per 6 abilities(which im positive we are above by now), that is bare minimum 30 per character, 210 total.

thats a damn lot to keep track of, and thats far from the exact amount we actually have. again, i get, understand, and appreciate you too have to keep track of alot, and its not 100% fully independent levels, but i dont think its unfair to point out even video games that can easily automate over half of those usually never try to give you anywhere near that much to keep track of, and even some pretty intensive and in depth games too.

thinking about it, ive never seen or played a tabletop RP that expects a single player with a single character to keep track of 30 things 'minimum'.

im sorry if it feels like im harping on you too much, or being a bit too asinine, but im just trying to put into perspective why and how it feels so tedious and bloated at times for at least me to try and actually play this and utilize things. its just... all that, and that is with me ignoring so many other factors to keep track of, some mentioned, some not, like actual depth and length of individual levels or their interactions with eachother.

>>4208803
>>4208781
(...Is it bad that I laughed at just how monstrous those numbers are? I absolutely get where you're coming from, good grief. Post-Alpha, I'm thinking a colossal overhaul would be for the best for the sake of literally everyone's sanity and for the sake of the Quest itself. Like another Anon mentioned earlier, it's basically a complex solo system that's been multiplied by eight times, so I absolutely see where it's a massive amount to keep track of, even on the player side.)

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>>4208823
I would be more than fine with you taking the time to do that, and like i said, i apologize if i explained it a bit harshly, especially knowing it cant be easy on your end either.

...but yes. those numbers. its alot even as it is now, and its not going to get better as it is. I suppose lets try and get though this and see what we can do afterwards.

>>4208826
(No no, your explanation wasn't harsh at all. It was effective and to the point, and I appreciate that. I just want to have fun, and for everyone present to have fun as well, and if something about the system is getting in the way of that, then I want to fix it.)

>>4208823
It might be necessary to make sure we can make it to the endgame and not die in the depths of bureaucracy.

Lets just say that i have experienced the depth of german bureaucracy form the inside.....
The bloat is fucking real

I would be completely fine with you taking some time off to overhaul the system..... to maybe compress it a bit Less Levels would also mean i would have to write less for Mina and her Crew

>>4208831
(I was thinking about compressing levels a great deal actually, so I appreciate that.)

>>4208828
I appreciate it, really. just more of im half assedly trying to make it clear id not care to explain it if you didn't provide an otherwise great experience that id prefer to fix over giving up on. theres plenty good here and with what you have done, which i think as another Anon has said before, 'is so good it makes the bad more obvious and hit harder.'

also never be afraid to ask for help either BHOP, even if only in small doses.

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>>4208803
>>4208823
Let me say this first. This quest system would be a fucking dream to see in a video game.

But as it is right now. I think it's safe to say that we've hit the system's utmost limit in the amount of crunch to keep track of.

We're going into combat where a raid party of 20+ mid-high level daughters are going up against ONE daughter whose stats is theoretically on par or even greater than Marrow Dragoon in terms of sheer CRUNCH factor from the outset from the player perspective.

And keep in mind that our current battle plan is a long protracted battle where we have multiple groups going into rotation. To put this in perspective, of a gamer, West-Alpha is basically doing a Blackrock mountain Ragnaros raid where you can't afford to lose a party member and you only have one shot to get it right.

The last time we had a battle this long and protracted was during Spiraling fear.

I have now realized in Carter's story, the soon to-be-featured monster's scale of power is equivalent to a West Alpha. And that's from just it's natural and highly refined diet. And I will not go into further spoilers of how much of a threat the thing is.

>>4208840
(I truly appreciate that, my friend. You've been a tremendous help thus far as-is, and thank you for your input as always.)

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>>4208312

Delegating the choice of battleground to Dorian and November, the pair elect for your family to make their stand at the Follicle Fields, the very ones that stretch long and far between the Envious City and the Calcite Cliffs. It's you, along with the full might of your family, the Barbers, the Midnight Crew, and the Metall Geschoss for good measure, all spread apart in teams across the rolling fields of golden hairs and equipped with a Commling for every pair of ears in lieu of your empathic field. Your own small cadre is composed of yourself, Isabelle, Sia, and Quinn atop one of the many hills, the other three teams barely perceptible in the distance with Dorian darting around at the outskirts, ready to move at the slightest signal.

"Orwell?" You ask aloud, uncertain as to whether or not she's listening until the ground warps at your feet, a willowy, humanoid shape rising up to take shape from the wheat-blonde hair that surrounds you.

"You ready?" She asks, and when you give her a curt nod, you can feel something shift imperceptibly in the atmosphere as the Skintalker broadcasts your location far and wide. Bait to a predator. Blood in the air.

Raw meat in open water...and you don't have to wait long before something catches your scent.

"Alpha's inbound, coming in hot at November's six-o'clock." Orwell declares, loud enough at your side to be heard over your Commling network. In the distance, you see the Metall Geschoss's turret swiftly pivot towards the impending threat. Silence. For a long, terrible moment, there's nothing but silence as somewhere in the distance, you know that Heather Neeson's drawing a bead on the thing that's coming to end you.

"Opening fire in three...two..." November breathes, her voice tense. "...one..."

A flicker of light, a devastating shell cast against an eternal sunset.

"Hit!" Gina declares incredulously. "She...Jesus fuck, she didn't even TRY to dodge-"

"Bogey's down, move out!" You demand, and as soon as the words are out of your mouth your world becomes a scarlet blur as Dorian ferrys you and yours into position, your vision reeling from the sheer speed. Focus sharpening, you find yourself on a hilltop staring down at the smoking crater resulting from Alpha's abrupt landing...and here, finally, you see her.

A tall figure rises from the bleeding wound in the plain's delicate scalp, the very ground concussed and weeping around the being. Two...no, maybe three meters in height as she rights herself, a hooded cloak of flesh dangles from a frame that's much too angular to be anything human. Light sears above her head, the violent crackling of the Generator Halo hissing at the very air around it as if in spite. Beneath Alpha's robes, you can sense them - the quartet of Forge Cores that sustain her, the four things you aim to remo-

You blink, now. At a sight that's only just now familiar in the most unfortunate of ways.

(Continued)

>>4208944

Perhaps if you'd never seen what you've seen, traveled where you've traveled, then maybe you might not see anything amiss at all...but as riotous colors dance around Alpha's gaunt figure, leaking out from whatever West's made of those Cores, you see it all too clearly, now.

The sickening light of raw, uncontrolled creation taints the air around Alpha, a wound in space that reminds you of Everything...

...and Nothing.

Your team is front and center, the obvious target as you wait for Alpha to make her move...but she's just standing still, so very still that you think she's not moving at all until you catch the tilt of her head to one side. She's looking, slowly surveying the scene as she reaches up with exaggeratedly long fingers, digging into her chest not for a weapon but rather to extract your warm welcome, the red-hot shell trailing wisps of pure heat as she casually tosses it to the ground.

"Shu...Magpie's Relic is busted." November tersely informs you, concern evident in her clipped tone. "This thing hasn't given us the opening round."

"Correction; it hasn't triggered yet." Gina clarifies from far away, and across your bond you can feel her mind entwine with the peerless Relic as she runs some hasty diagnostics. "I don't get it...maybe we hit Alpha from far enough away for it to not register as combat? Fuck it, I'm not looking a gift horse in the mou-"

"Fix it."

Your focus snaps to the crater below to the source of the voice, finding that Alpha's aimed a single, long finger towards you. She hasn't moved, she hasn't taken a single step out of the boiling, stinking wound from where she landed...she's just standing, her words hanging in the roiling air.

"You did something to me." She intones flatly, her muffled voice barely audible above the gentle wind that rolls across the plains. There's no trace of anger, no vitriol...not even a mild annoyance as she repeats herself once more.

"Fix it." She echoes, no louder than the first time she uttered her simple demand.

"...What the fuck?" Rath growls across the coms. "Is this a fucking joke? Or...or some kind of trap?"

You have an opportunity. A golden chance that Magpie's given you, a pearlescent sphere that's nestled in November's hands. The odds are in your favor, and all you have to do is seize it.

"Fix it." Alpha says again, allowing her hand to drop to her side as she just stares at you from under her ragged shawl like a petulant child. "I have seen what you do. You help humans. You fix things. You fix people."

Your brow furrows.

"Fix me."

>>No words. No hesitation. No quarter given. [Initiate surprise round]

>>Write-In

YOU ARE IN CONTROL

(Gentlemen, as previously stated your surprise round has not yet triggered. Voting shall remain open for the next three hours.)

>>4208953
(Also, apologies for the delay; I was a little thrown off my usual writing groove since I got home so early, so thank you all for bearing with me.)

>>4208948
>Blink
>then, stand tall, and be honest. even Alpha deserves that much.
>"All i did was help someone else cut you and your sisters from West Primes control. If you consider that breaking you, then you're entitled to your opinion."
>"What i must ask is... why would you want or think of me to fix that, over simply going to West Prime first? If you really want to be connected to her... such is your choice to strive for that, but Its not something we can stand by and let happen either."
>"We help others, yes, but if they prove worthy of being helped. you mindlessly slaughter anyone and everything for West Prime, why would we help you to go back to doing that?"
>"But... you have a chance here. to not be that. to not run back to her arms. Its all about if you will take it... if you even can...."

>Assuming she makes even a single twitch of aggression towards us, or it seems that way, have November and anyone else who can be ready to give her another full barrage, before Shu and her Team attack themselves in the chaos.
>If she doesn't... well, lets see what she has to say....

this... is not what i expected. certainly is a much different reason for her to be coming after us.

Wow OP........Just..... Fuck you urghhh........ *insert grinding teeth noises*

Holy shit...... what even in the actual ninth circle of Hell beneath Satans freezing fucking ass just happened.....

This just seriously threw me off my groove right now.....


I will have trouble sleeping tonight.... I am so fucking tempted to talk to her and try and find out what the fuck she wants by wanting us to fix her.....

Could we tell her that we can not have her go back to West since she will just use her?

How would she react...... What could we tell her? We would have to do it with cold logic. But she has no real desires we can appeal to does she....... ?

All she knew was being used as a tool and now she seems... lost almost

>>4208972
i mean... worse case scenario is her doing exactly what we expected anyways, which is come at us looking to turn us into paste.

>>4208948
>Send a Comling to communicate from where you are.
>Ask for assurance that she won't attack anyone if we approach her.
>Question her for details. Does she want to feel emotions again? Regain some semblance of the person West used to make her? To have her body changed?
>Say that if she truly is offering to resolve this without violence or death, we'll try our best to help, and that our means and resources to find a solution are nothing to scoff at.

>>4208974
i dont like this.
we shouldn't approach her just yet, by a long shot. she also told us what she wants most likely, which is she feels 'broken' after we cut off the network. we also cant really offer to end this peacefully no matter what, as if the implied want is, well, what she wants, we cant give that to her.

>>4208948
The Muse left me.

>>4208972
>>4208971
To be honest. I expected this.
I figured that Alpha was tracking us down because she saw us help fix the West network like she did with Francine. She's knows we're a people person, and I had the hunch that she was looking for a way to be able to feel again.

I expected this to happen, but anons were very much fixated on seeing Alpha as some sort of machine to be killed and my voice opinions felt like it kept on getting shut down.

>>4208981
i think you may need to re-red.
shes implying she saw us destroying the Proxy Network as us BREAKING her, not fixing anything. she is very much implying she wants us to reconnect her to West Prime, not fix her emotional nullification.

>>4208985
ah. sorry.

>>4208971
i think we theorized about her trying to understand Shu by following her path.

>>4208973
yeah and that has me worried........ well

>>4208981
To be honest she could have very well been a servitor stuck in its last program. Which was incidentally hunting Shu and her family down.

We knew nothing else about her but that she is a super dangerous enemy that was outfitted to kill us by one of our largest if not the largest enemy and then send on a direct path to murder our faces off.

Also its sad to hear that the Muse left you. it always is a tragic thing if that happens

>>4208980
I'm not saying to approach her, hence why I said to send her a Comling to talk remotely, and asking her not to try anything if we do later.

>>4208971
Pointing out that she could just go back to West Prime for maintenance like she used to do if what she wants is to be back in the network, but its also why I wouldn't make assumptions that that's what she's asking for right now and moralize her about it. Who's to say that it never crossed her mind, but she rejected that option for one reason or another? I'm remembering how Yurei is said to have made her flip out by knocking loose one of her forge cores, and maybe her request has something to do with that.

>>4208996
*"is good" before the "but". I don't know how I forgot to put that in.

>>4208996
we can already communicate though, we dont need to send a commling. you asl asked for assurance she wouldn't attack if we approach, what the hell else does that imply but you want to approach her?

and shes pretty heavily implying that. we havent done anything else related to her... really at all. the only thing we have 'done' to her, much less she could consider breaking her, is shutting down the Proxy Network. i gave her a chance to correct it if she wants something else, but it makes much more sense to ask her the obvious over making wild assumptions. shes very clearly pointing towards something specific, involving us and her, and again, theres literally only one thing we have even done that could be in that slot.

also, Yurei knocked her core loose like, a long long time ago from now. thats probably had time to be fixed twenty times over at least, and assuredly was.

>>4208972
(Oh, if I had a dime for every time one of my players has had this exact reaction.)

>>4208981
(Good eye on all that, and you were absolutely on the right track as far as Alpha trying to figure you out by re-tracing your steps.)

(Also, I'm sorry the Muse has taken her leave, at least for now. She always comes back, though sometimes it just takes a good meal and a nice night of sleep.)

>>4208971
(Ever since I rolled for how everyone reacted to what you did to the West network and given how bizarrely it affected Alpha, I've been looking forward to this.)

>>4208948
Well since i should go to sleep now i will support >>4208971 and>>4208974

>>4209010
I am not sure if i should be impressed that you have gotten stuff like that more than once or embarrassed i didn't think up anything better.

Well Good Night OP

And

Good Night Anons

>>4209009
She actually didn't accuse us of breaking her per say. "Fix it" after she said that we did something to her can point to her talking about her connection to Prime, but her following lines about Shu fixing people and helping humans then paint different motivations.

>>4209020
what? thats exactly what she did.

she says Fix 'It', then implies we did something related to that 'it', then simply repeats her demand. she is very much being accusatory... as much as an emotionless robot can, obviously. her equating Shu fixing and helping people with us being even able, much less willing, to fix her is very much more implied that she just has a very basic understanding of what we even do. i mean, we've done a shitton of breaking too, for instance, so even on the most basic level she would have to be horribly simplifying things to bring this up.

it also ignores theres only one recent thing that really could be seen as anything of her breaking. sure, she may not actually like whatever was done to her, but thats very different than anything about her actually being broken, even from a 'perspective' angle.

regardless, she very much is putting some form of blame of Shu we need to tread through, and is talking about something specific too, not as broad as you are implying. her reasons for not going to West Prime is also suspect, even if she does want her freedom and this is something else.

>>4208953

>"I'm not sure what to say, and I'm not an actual licensed doctor...but I'll try my best."

>"What seems to be the problem? Describe it for me."

>"What do you hope to achieve from your request to having me "fix you" ?"

>"When was the last time you've felt emotion?"

>"Would you like to feel emotion again?"

>"One of your forge cores is tied to suppressing your emotions. It may be a key factor in the underlying problems that have been plaguing you. Can you point out what it does?"

>"Breaking the network was the first step in a long list steps for better recovery."

>"The purpose of breaking the network was to allow you to give you a better sense of your own direction."

>"How long have you been taking orders?"

>"If you were to make a choice by yourself, what would your choice be?"

>"Have you ever made a choice by yourself?"

>"Describe yourself."

>Girls, I need you to stand by just in case. Think of her as Tin Man from the land of Oz who's asking what it means to have a heart.

>>4208971
>>4208972
>>4208981
I think we should try a different tact. We may not be a doctor, but different people behave accordingly in different ways. lets try adapting a psychologist's persona.
Another thing to take note is that Alpha didn't really specify and I think many of us are jumping the gun and making assumptions.

Lets try and take this step by step by asking Alpha questions step by step.

>>4209031
yeah no, i dislike this. for one, feels way too much like 20 questions scenario, when even if she does comply, nows not really the time to dig that deep, over just getting direct answers from her. way too many questions and way too... iffy. we're standing before something that could twitch and kill us practically. its not our friend, not yet for sure, and we have no reason to suddenly treat it like one, over at best neutral tones. also feels a bit too jokey at the beginning for my tastes.

she also has shown to be simple and straight forward so far. better to play off that, than hope she will be ok with us going our usual crazy on her.

>>4209031
>>4209020
what about something like;

>Blink, but stand firm and keep everyone prepared for the worst.
>"What do you think i broke? what do you want me to fix?"
>"and Why me? why come to me, over West Prime?"

short, simple, no assumptions from my or your side on just what this actually is.

>>4209031
>>4208948
Amending my vote:

>"Girls, I need you to stand by just in case. Think of her as Tin Man from the land of Oz who's asking what it means to have a heart, and she's asking me to be her doctor/theraptist."

>Stand tall, walk down towards Alpha.

>"I'm not sure what to say, and I'm not an actual licensed doctor...but I'll try my best."
>"What seems to be the problem? Describe it for me."
>"What do you hope to achieve from your request to having me "fix you" ?"
>"When was the last time you've felt emotion?"
>"Would you like to feel emotion again?"
>"What emotion would you like to experience?"
>"One of your forge cores is tied to suppressing your emotions. It may be a key factor in the underlying problems that have been plaguing you. Can you point out what it does?"
>"Breaking the network was the first step in a long list steps for better recovery."
>"The purpose of breaking the network was to allow you to give you a better sense of your own direction."
>"How long have you been taking orders?"
>"If you were to make a choice by yourself, what would your choice be?"
>"Have you ever made a choice by yourself?"
>"Describe yourself."
>"Do you dream? Describe them for me?"
>"Do you have preferences? likes? dislikes?"

>If West Alpha gets impatient: "Slow down. This is a long process. I may have a good track record of helping people, but that requires time, effort, a good diagnosis, and most importantly: trust."
>If West Alpha says anything about Shu's ability to feel emotion: "I have given up that power by my own choice. It was the right thing to do. It may be something you will be able to learn depending on the choices you make."

>>4209041
>>4208948
yeah no, this is not better at all, and without a doubt in a heartbeat im vetoing going towards her for damned sure.

>>4209040
Fair points. I'll amend my vote.


>>4209041
>>4208948

>Blink, but stand firm and keep everyone prepared for the worst.
>"What do you think i broke? what do you want me to fix?"
>"and Why me? why come to me, over West Prime?"
>"If you want me to fix you, I need to know everything about you to treat the source of the problem, not the symptoms."

>>4208948
Blerg. Dozed off, just woke up now. So Alpha was trying to figure out what we did to her. I was kind of hoping for this outcome, I just didn't think it was practical to try to talk first. I figured that Alpha must have been trying to figure out who and what Shu is from how she was retracing our path. But I didn't think she'd be in touch with her motivations enough until after some Forge Cores got blasted out. Looks like they do a lot less to keep her suppressed than we thought, maybe.

Also, Alpha's so integrated into the weird physics of the Forge Cores that she's got un-light like the Nothing does. That's...that's great.

>>4209040
Yeah, that could work. A simple, to the point ask for clarification. Maybe with a nested chain pre-selected, since it's probably going to be about "hey, why am I no longer an automaton anymore, what's up with feelings things, this is weird I shouldn't be able to feel upset at being able to feel upset" like we think.

>>4208971
>>4208948
amending vote to;

>Blink, but stand firm and keep everyone prepared for the worst.
>"What do you think i broke? what do you want me to fix?"
>"and Why me? why come to me, over West Prime?"

by itself. as said, lets not jump to conclusions or over-complicate this. yet at least. im sure even if she gives a simple response it'll give us plenty to expand upon... or we'll just fight her. we'll see.

>>4208948
>>Write-In
>Relax your guard the tiniest bit, enough to still be ready for a fight but projecting less hostility. Wary cautiousness, a little bit of authority.
>"Okay."
>"What do you think needs to be fixed? I can't help you if you don't tell me what's wrong."
>"And why come to me? You've got West Prime, why aren't you seeking her help?"

Also, on a tangential note: How many railgun shells was Alpha hit with?

>>4209112
>How many railgun shells was Alpha hit with?

The answer is unfortunately "No."

>>4209112
(Six, all told. She speed-fired them thanks to the efforts of her team, with five of the shells being broken down by Alpha's form and the sixth being the one she failed to repurpose.)

>>4209112
>>4209178
no no, she got hit with a least one, she pulled it out of her sternum like it was a nerf dart. which isnt very promising actually...

>>4209189
(So Alpha *did* take damage from the hit, but if you're expecting her to react to even significant damage in any meaningful way, then you'll be disappointed.)

>>4209189
>>4209197
...oof. im not liking that 'repurposed' bit there. but i didn't expect to really like anything about what she would pull against us, so.

>>4209201
This feels like an encounter where we may have to talk the monster (West Alpha) to death in a deliberate way.

>>4209204
depends on what exactly you mean there. we're not beating her out via knocking her down to death door, i can tell you that much at least.

>>4209207
Basically our goal here is instead of trying to defeat the monster through sheer brute force and getting a total party wipe in the process, we convince West Alpha to uninstall that forge core matrix of her own volition.

And considering the recent news of West Alpha actually eating the bloody Gauss Cannon bits like they were constructs, tells me that anything that is a flesh construct or a relic will be ineffective.

>>4209215
im very sure our chances of talking her down are nearly zip.

as for the shots, maybe. depends on what the Gauss Rounds actually count as. dont think we've heard of her just eating others relics, and i doubt they have never been brought to bear against her not to see that.

>>4209224
>dont think we've heard of her just eating others relics,
You can't be too careful.

>>4209197
Bhop. I need to ask you a question in regards to the passage of time in the world of Body Horror Quest.

From the start of Vein #19 with Shu's trip to the Disassociated ones, to Vein #27 at the point where Shu's family finally sleep after consuming Isabelle's remains, how much time has passed in Earth time? Which Veins count together as a single "day" in Earth time?

I need to know this because it will help streamline the timeline for "Carter and the Town of Cradleton".

>>4209244
(I'm going to have to look back at my notes, so let me review it and I'll get back to you on that.)

>>4209197
Less "expecting her to react", more "had any of the tracer rounds still in her". So the answer to that is a solid no. I didn't expect her to react to the damage meaningfully, but I was hoping at least to leave a tracer embedded.

Weird that Alpha could repurpose the rounds, though. That's a weird ability for her to have. Oh, shit, is it because November's bullets are made of Forge material? Are we shooting crafting ingredients at Alpha?

>>4209245
>>4209253
you know, BHOP never answered me about Tinker earlier.
shame too, im wondering if we couldn't somehow turn that against her, if that is whats happening.

>>4209253
I believe that is the right question to ask.

How else would a daughter with a forge core matrix be able to disassemble forgecreated sniper rounds?

If West prime managed to hack into the Forge Cores and create a Matrix out of them, what does that imply about West Alpha's capabilities with Relics and Forges?

>>4209258
(Tinker prefers not to fight, but it's entirely possible to ask her for her services...if you want a twitchy, over-enthusiastic technician in the midst of all this, that is.)

>>4209262
ah alright.
was more of wondering about the fact after she fixed up November, you never said she left but... she either did and no one cared, so she just really knows how to stay in the background.

but i mean, regardless, if we could 'corrupt' Novembers ammunition or something, would be a neat way to impede West Alpha a bit at least. not sure we can, but of course Tinker would be the one to know.

>>4209267
That brings up an interesting question. How do we "corrupt" ammunition?

>>4209271
Make it into bombs, I guess. Something that is stable so long as you leave it as a solid, but once you try to dismantle it it detonates internally. I don't know how we'd do that with the tools on hand, though.

>>4209271
>>4209277
i was more thinking messing around with whatever it is Forges are actually using, a more literal corruption of what they are.

but again, im unsure of the extent or how, hence saying Tinker would be the one to answer that question.

>>4209277
Can't Rath put sticky bombs on November's Tank shells?

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>>4208948

"What do you think I broke?" You ask as you straighten up, standing firm in the face of West's inscrutable creation. "What do you want me to fix?"

"You did something to me. Now I can't talk to Prime. Prime can't talk to me. I don't know what you did. But I know that if I can't talk to Prime then you'd be the one behind it. Prime told me that you were a bug in the system. Messing everything up for everyone but Mara." She explains calmly, either ignorant or indifferent to the dozen-odd Daughters that're ready to pounce at a moment's notice. You almost take a hesitant step forward before an arm's thrust out in front of you, the subtle shake of B'ni's head giving you pause as her unblinking emerald gaze locks onto the target below. "I want to talk to Prime. I want you to fix me."

{Wait...she's just assuming at this point, so did she not hear Francine and Sigma's speech?} Gina asks across your bond. {Does she not have access to the Skinternet?}

"So why me?" You continue. "Why come to me, over West Prime?"

"I don't know where Prime is."

You blink.

"...But you return to her after your assignments, right?"

"Yes." Alpha nods. "After my assignment is done, then she tells me where home is. I forget, and then she reminds me."

...Christ.

"What makes you think I can fix something like something like that, exactly?" You press, eyes narrowed as Isabelle subtly interposes herself between you and Alpha before she freezes when Alpha's arm swings up, her finger now leveled at the shorter girl.

"You broke her." Alpha says quietly. "At Almath. But she is here, now. You fixed her. You know how to break. You know how to fix. You are good at both. This is what you do."

"I..." You say, drawing in a breath as B'ni's bangs hide her eyes from yours. "I didn't re-"

"Alpha?" Sia suddenly interrupts, head cocked to one side. "You said that West...West Prime, that she'd tell you where home base is when you finished an assigment, right?"

Alpha merely nods once more, her halo sizzling above her hood.

"So...what's your current assignment?"

"Unknown."

"What?" You breathe.

"Current assignment; unknown." She clarifies in her droll, monotone voice. "West Prime location; unknown. I knew both, and then something happened. Something you did. I want you to fix what you did."

{...Holy shit} Gina mutters in your mind, her thoughts dancing around your own before she speaks again. {Just relayed that to Francine, and she's...jeez, she thinks that when we severed the network then we might've caused some sort of critical error with Alpha. I mean, most of the Proxies were meant to work independently for stretches of time, but it's sounding more and more like Alpha was just...strung along, almost. Without that string, that link to Prime - she's got fucking *nothing*}

(Continued)

>>4209300

"If you want me to fix you, I need to know everything about you to treat the source of the problem, not the symptoms." You say, only to have Alpha stiffen at your request and prompting Quinn's alabaster muscles to tense beside you.

"I cannot comply. Prime's research is not to be disclosed by any Proxy without her express permission. Zero exceptions."

"Okay, that's...alright." You say, not wishing to press her any further, at least not in an overly direct fashion. "So when this happened and you couldn't hear Prime anymore, did you hear anything else? Anything about any other Proxies over the Skinternet?"

"My only link is...was...to Prime." Alpha corrects herself. "I am unable to connect to the Skinternet. My tether was lost. There is only silence, now."

Her halo flares, white flame searing the air around Alpha's head.

"Fix me." She flatly demands once more. "Undo what you did, or take me to Prime. Do one of these things, and I will go home."

No mission, no home...she's lost, seeking a master that may have already left for the Cord. The first and last time you encountered West - the real West - she said she'd see you at the Cord, so for all you know sending Alpha home is a fool's errand...but then again, with no connection to the Skinternet and no way for Prime to reach out, that may not be a bad thing at all.

Or it could shorten the timer on a ticking time bomb.

Regardless, said bomb is standing expectantly before you and demanding repairs as you try and work out how to deal with this bizarre situation. Deal with her now, and suffer the consequences? Put her off, and try to stall until you can better prepare with what you've just learned? Or maybe, just maybe you could use this as a chance to do something clever...but with lives at stake, is now really the time?

Even as the possibilities swirl in your mind's eye, you have to admit a terrible irony, in all this - the flesh-and-blood Magpie refused to hear you out, while not even a day later you're having a relatively ameniable conversation with a product of Doctor West's twisted mind.

>>"I can fix you, Alpha...but it'll take some time. Can you give me some time to figure this out, while you wait somewhere that people aren't going to bother you?"

>>"Alpha, I can help you, if you'll let me. I know you said that you can't let anyone else know what Prime's worked on, but in order to help you then I need to have my friends figure out how you work. Can we do that?"

>>"If I worked to figure out where Prime's home base is, then could I trust you to wait while I tracked it down?"

>>"We shot you down earlier...why didn't you fight back? You did research on me and I did some on you, so why'd you pull your punches against us?"

>>This thing that she's asking you to do...you can't do it. You need to bring her down here and now, or else she'll hang over your head until you deal with her or she deals with you. There is no third option in this.

>>Write-In

YOU ARE IN CONTROL

(Gentlemen, I shall be pausing here for the evening. Voting shall remain open for the next fourteen hours, with posting to resume at approximately 12:00PM, Eastern time, though I'll endeavor to have it done before then. Thank you all for your patience, participation, and enthusiasm as always, and I hope that you have a restful evening.)

>>4209311
whelp, as i said, she was talking about the lack of a connection. we 'broke' her, but only because she was designed to be wholly lost without the network, unlike the others... damn is West Prime cruel. i mean, i get it, cant give your doomsday weapon even an ounce of freedom or risk her turning on you, but still.

>>4209318
have a good afternoon BHOP. this certainly is not the direction i expected you to take with this, you certainly bamboozled me earlier by making it sound like a fight was inevitable. may still be, but this is certainly more of a chance to at least look at the situation differently first than imagined.

>>4209318
Have a nice evening, BHOP. Thanks for running.

>>4209331
>>4209318
God dammit Bhop. Now I have this adorable image of West Alpha wandering around like a lost nuclear Warforged puppy who wants to go home back to her master.

>>4209331
(Make no mistake, this can absolutely go south if you don't play your cards right, but while Magpie's whole thing was complex, there's a certain childish simplicity in Alpha's goals.)

>>4209342
(You do as well, and it's truly my pleasure. Thank you for participating!)

>>4209344
(Ha, that's pretty close to reality, actually.)

>>4209353
>Magpie's whole thing was complex
Goddammit Magpie. Please. Why did you have to pull something so abhorrent like becoming a terrorist assassin who hunts down settlements with the expectation of us following your damn breadcrumbs so you can pull an M. Night Shyamalan Bamboozle?

Ugh...I want to like you, but your death still haunts me.

>>4209311
>dont lie, be honest.
>"Alpha... for better or worse... thats not gonna happen. After we broke the Network, West Prime talked to us. shes gone. she packed up and left for the Cord. even if we found her old base, shes not there anymore."
>"As for the Network... the simple fact is, if you want our help with that, then we would need to know how you work. whether you tell us, or we found it in West Primes home, either way, shes not here to fix it herself anymore."
>"But.... you have to understand. even if we could... we couldn't reconnect you. West twisted the truth about me to you, but even if you dont believe me, you can understand one thing im sure. West is a threat to me and mine. if you go back to taking her orders, you too, will be a threat, and to others aswell."
>"You have a choice here though. we CAN help you, but not exactly how you might of thought, and either way, it wouldn't be quick, it wouldn't be easy, and it cannot happen unless you can give me assurances you will not be a threat to me or my friends and family. and i dont mean simply with your words and promises."
>"We also could connect you to the Skinternet. some of the other Proxies are trying to find their own way, their own route forward without West Prime. but you would have to give us the same assurances you wont be a threat, but after that... it would be between you and them."
>"You have something here Alpha. a choice, your own. not mine, not West Primes. something you have never had before. freedom. I know its odd, having something like that, that you never had before. but its yours, and its your decision to make."
>"We dont have to come to blows here. im sure you can see the wastefulness of it, even if you won. but We cant have you wandering around causing trouble and killing people, and im sure even you would prefer the efficiency of not constantly being attacked too."
>"But it all depends on what you choose here, yourself."

>>4209353
yeah, this is certainly a razors edge. that being said, i dont feel like stringing her along or lying to her will really be the way to go. might save us... a damn lot of trouble, but still. and im actually not surprised by Alphas simplicity. mostly im still just surprised she tried at all. ok, sure, West Prime never let you remember home or anything. and you dont remember exactly that you were hunting us, only we're not allies.

still though, feels like hunting down a Proxy would be her first choice, not us. ah well, guess the issue might be she doesn't have info saying the proxies help people, so she didn't think about it.

>>4209300
>Prime told me that you were a bug in the system. Messing everything up for everyone but Mara.
So if I'm reading this right, Alpha thinks she's helping people? Prime wouldn't have phrased it like this if Alpha didn't care about people other than Prime. She would have just told Alpha that we're screwing things up for her. If Prime is motivating Alpha by saying that we're messing things up for everyone, then that means that Alpha wants to cause a net good for the world, not just Prime. She's just been lied to this whole time, and has enough safety locks on her that I don't know if it's possible to convince her of the truth. Damn, that's kind of sad. Oh god, I'm starting to feel bad for Alpha.

>>4209372
This whole encounter is basically Dark Souls boss except you don't have to kill the boss but you will still be hit by the feels regardless.

>>4209377
(A variation of that feel is what I try to go for regarding most boss fights/encounters.)

>>4209427
Did you find out the answer to the question I asked on >>4209244 ?

I'm still waiting on that answer.

Also found a good OST for writing for the mood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug7GuGvd8Kc

>>4209436
(Looking at everything, I'd say that a little shy of two days elapsed in that time frame, with Veins 17 to 21 being a single 24-hour time span. I leave timing a little rough on account of the Crucible's nature, though. Having been in a rapid series of crisis situations before, I can certainly attest to how time loses all meaning when panic and chaos sets in...though mine involved a little less body horror.)

(Also, that music is extremely pleasant. Adding it to my writing tunes playlist.)

>>4209458
What about 21-27? I need the timing on that as well if I am to ensure that the story pace doesn't get arbitrarily compressed by a miscount. Much of the time in the second half of the story depends on the time period between vein 21-27.

>>4209461
(Sorry, in >>4209458 I was implying that Veins 21 to 27 comprised a single day as well. Apologies for not being clearer.)

>>4209468
Thank you for answering those question. This significantly changes the timeline that I have to work with by several magnitudes in regards to the epilogue.

Also, this also brings up another question that I had in mind: What's the average population size for a small settlement in the Crucible world? A medium settlement? A large settlement?

Blerg. I'm having writer's block on what I want to say to Alpha. I keep going over it and restarting. Is it worth it to try to lead Alpha to the thought that Prime abandoned her, or is that too much of a risk that Alpha will react poorly? Because I think that getting Alpha to realize that the paradox that prevents her from letting anyone fix her is likely intentional could do a lot to break her out of this dangerous course. But if we screw it up, she might just go rage on us.

>>4209480
(Small settlements usually comprise anywhere between a one to two dozen people, with medium ones rounding out around twenty-five to fifty. Anything over that is considered a large settlement. To compare, the Monastery and Laoc are considered large, while the off-shoot of the Altar is a medium-sized one. There were two undiscovered groups in Carroll's Forest and the Swamp that would be small settlements.)

>>4209488
>>4209480
(Now, that being said; much larger groups are entirely possible, and have become much more common as the Crucible's dragged on. For example of much, much larger groups, the major settlement in Germany is an excellent example, as is one located on Kyushu.)

>>4209484
I think the main thing that we need to teach Alpha with this is that due to the circumstances, Alpha is the one that calls the shots. She can either break her directive given to her by Prime which would help with one of Shu's proposed solutions (basically go full system diagnostics so Alpha can make a skinternet phonecall to West Prime), or go with one of the lesser options (either A: make a Relic analog Computer that allows West Alpha to connect with the skinternet, or B: Hire Shu to track West Prime down).

Alpha's a simpleton when it comes to problems and solutions. So I think the best way to approach with our answer is to be honest, simple and direct.

>>4209491
>>4209488
Interesting.

I may have over-estimated my figures as to what constitutes as an appropriate number for Cradleton's general populace as well as the Cult's total membership count.

>>4209496
Okay, yeah, that might work, then. Emphasize the idea that she's stuck in a paradox, that she needs to go outside her usual operational parameters to resolve it. Okay, gonna try again. After I get some coffee or something, I'm starting to get drowsy.

>>4209484
>>4209496
Not much i can think to say as a response honestly, and considering ive already put my own vote out.

Though yes, i agree we at least shouldn't lie, omit, or twist the truth really for... Alot of reasons.

God damn it, I've still got nothing. I'm just going to go to bed, take another stab at it in the morning. In the meantime, I'll vote in support of the existing write-in, it's not bad.

>>4209311
Supporting >>4209367

>>4209311
>dont lie, be honest.
>"Alpha... for better or worse... thats not gonna happen. After we broke the Network, West Prime talked to us. shes gone. she packed up and left for the Cord. even if we found her old base, shes most assuredly not there anymore."
>"As for the Network... the simple fact is, if you want our help with that, then we would need to know how you work. whether you tell us, or we found it in West Primes home, either way, shes not here to fix it herself anymore."
>"But.... you have to understand. even if we could... we couldn't reconnect you. West twisted the truth about me to you, but even if you dont believe me, you can understand one thing im sure. West is a threat to me and mine. if you go back to taking her orders, you too, will be a threat, and to others aswell."
>"You have a choice here though. we CAN help you, but not exactly how you might of thought, and either way, it wouldn't be quick, it wouldn't be easy, and it cannot happen unless you can give me assurances you will not be a threat to me or my friends and family. and i dont mean simply with your words and promises."
edit:
>"Because Prime could just make you forget your promises again if you reunite with her. No matter what you might wish to do"

>"We also could connect you to the Skinternet. some of the other Proxies are trying to find their own way, their own route forward without West Prime. but you would have to give us the same assurances you wont be a threat, but after that... it would be between you and them."
>"You have something here Alpha. a choice, your own. not mine, not West Primes. something you probably have never had before. freedom. I know its odd, having something like that, that you never had before. but its yours, and its your decision to make."
>"We dont have to come to blows here. im sure you can see the wastefulness of it, even if you won. but We cant have you wandering around causing trouble and killing people, and im sure even you would prefer the efficiency of not constantly being attacked too."
>"But it all depends on what you choose here, yourself."

Other than that little edit i support the sentiment of the vote put forward by>>4209367

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>>4209311

"Alpha, for better or worse…that’s not going to happen. After we broke the Network, West Prime talked to us - she’s gone. She packed up and left for the Cord. Even if we found her old base, she’s not there anymore."

The figure below you falters, her shrouded head starting to twitch unnervingly.

“…No. No, incorrect.” She says, long-fingered hands clenching and unclenching at her side. “You can’t be…but you’re not lying. The field says you’re not lying, but you must have misunderstood Prime. This information cannot be correct.”

"As for the Network - the simple fact is, if you want our help with that, then we would need to know how you work.” You continue, the three girls at your side on a razor’s edge as Alpha struggles with the news. “Whether you tell us or we found it in West Primes home…well, either way she’s not here to fix it herself anymore."

“…If you locate Prime’s main laboratory, then I will have not broken my promise-protocol.” Alpha replies. “You can understand my systems. You can fix me.”

"But...you have to understand.” You say as gingerly as you can. “Even if we could, then we couldn't reconnect you to Prime. West is a threat to me and mine. If you go back to taking her orders then you’ll be a threat again. Not just to us but to others as well."

“Irrelevant. Placing myself back under Prime’s control is priority.” She intones. “Fix me. Or I will find someone who can.”

"Alpha? You have a choice here. We CAN help you, but not exactly how you might have thought.” You stress. “Either way - it wouldn't be quick, it wouldn't be easy, and it won’t unless you can give me assurances you will not be a threat to me or to my friends and family. And I don’t mean simply with your words and promises."

Her hands flex again, her silent consideration its own reply.

"You have something here, Alpha. A choice, your own. Not mine, not West Prime’s. Something you’ve never had before…freedom. I know it’s odd, having something like that, something you’ve never had before. But it’s yours, and it’s your decision to make."

“Incorrect.” Alpha calmly counters. “I do not want this choice. I want to be fixed. Prime makes choices. I execute her choices. This is the way of things. Fix me, or I will find one who can.”

"We don’t have to come to blows here. I’m sure you can see the wastefulness of it, even if you won.”

“I would win.” Alpha coldly interrupts, head cocked to once side as B’ni grits her teeth beside you. “I have been tested. I have been built to achieve victory.”

“…But we can’t have you wandering around causing trouble and killing people, and I’m sure even you would prefer the efficiency of not constantly being attacked too."

“…This is true.” She replies after a moment of thought. “Victory pleases Prime. I…it is a means to an end.”

(Continued)

>>4210504

“Tracking me down? Figuring out what I do, and how I treat people? You said you don’t want a choice, but what you’ve done to get here has been under your own power. That’s the result of your decisions, Alpha…no one else’s.” You explain, taking a small step forward as you keep your voice level. “We can help you, if you’ll let us. We can help you be something more than you are, if you want to be. But it all depends on what you choose here, yourself, Alpha. You, and no one else.”

“…If you will not fix me then I will find Prime’s laboratory myself.” Alpha declares quietly, her hands going limp at her sides. “I will find how I was made. Then I will find someone who is willing to fix me. If you are not going to help me then please do not hinder my pursuit of this goal. If you do, then I will have no choice but to defend myself. But…I will not be a threat to you, if you do not make yourself one to me.”

{Shu, Francine just said that no-one’s got the slightest idea where Prime’s lab is. There’s theories on the Skinternet, but none of them have yielded any results} Gina quickly informs you. {This fool’s errand might be just the break we need. If Alpha can’t find it, then at least she’s out of our hair for the time being, ‘cause…the light around her, that’s the same thing you saw when you talked with that thing in the Forge Core, right? I’m gonna be honest, I don’t like the look of that, Shu. Between that and how she practically brushed off November’s barrage like she did, then we may be out of our fucking depth here}

Goddammit.

Alpha doesn’t want a choice. She just wants someone else to call the shots. Just like Sigma, really…the burden of choice she accused you of thrusting upon her now weighs on this one’s shoulders as well. Alpha can’t even conceive of an existence that isn’t under another’s control...but even still, the way she moves, the way she’s using her hands coupled with the way she reacted to the revelation that Prime may have left without her?

Something’s changing in her. She’s not an emotionless terminator – she’s making calls, she’s feeling things that she doesn’t know how to handle. To be honest, you’re not sure if you know how to handle them, either…but regardless of what choices she’ll make, you have one shot to call right here.

Right now.

>>”…Okay. If that’s what you want, then I won’t stop you. If I have your word that you won’t harm us, then you have mine that we won’t harm you. One of us breaks that promise? Then we come to blows. Understood?”

>>”You say you don’t want a choice, Alpha? Fine. Follow me, and I’ll help you find West’s lab. But understand that doing that is going to take some time. You’ll have to be patient, if you want to find her again. Can you do that for me?”

>>…Alpha’s left you with no other choice. [Initiate free opening round of combat]

>>Write-In

YOU ARE IN CONTROL

(Gentlemen, voting shall remain open for the next three hours.)

>>4210508
>"If all you want to do is follow orders, does it really have to be from Prime? What if she could be replaced by someone or something else? Would that work."

This definitely won't win at all and I'll end up changing my vote, but I'll just throw that at the wall anyway to see if it sticks for now.

>>4210508
Goddammit, Alpha really is acting like a lost puppy. No scratch that.

She's acting like a child who's only known her mother and not that of her siblings. And she's now in the midst of grieving and trying to cope with the loss of her mother's presence when said Mother has already abandoned her to die by heading for the Cord. She's like a child who's so used to having hand being held and accustomed to hand-holding that she's frightened by the fact that she's having to call the shots.

Ultimately, this will be West Alpha's Journey to make as she tries to uncover more of herself. But I think we could hold her hand and give her a bit of a reassurance, the big risk however is that Alpha will basically latch onto us while we try to help her find Prime's home.

>>4210504
>“…This is true.” She replies after a moment of thought. “Victory pleases Prime. I…it is a means to an end.”

There. Right there. The moment Alpha addressed herself as herself instead of being simply a machine.
that's what I want to see. The signs of change.

>>4210508
>"If that is what you want i cant stop you. But please consider that her lab is very well concealed and hidden. You on your own may never find it."
>"You could be searching for years.... and seeing how fast things are moving now... I don't think we.... You or us has that time."
>"The crucible will end soon. Prime will clash with Mara if she is still standing her vigil. I am sure that she thinks she can take Mara. You would have been a nice tool to further her own strength and get her through he cord easier. But in the end she would have abandoned you to die as she ascends the throne and condemned every being on this world to death, including you."

>"You said you don't want a choice. But by saying that you are making a choice already. Trying to be what you perceive as whole again was the first choice you ever made."
>Offer her a hand
>"I can see why it seems desirable to be under someone else's command. To receive their guidance and have to do nothing but follow their orders."
>"Tell me how often has Prime complimented you on a job well done? How many times has she asked you for your opinion on a matter?"
>"I can help you find Primes Lab. But in return i want you to look into yourself and find yourself. because you are not a tool. You are a person. And as such i ask that you be patient until we can fidn the lab and try and find what has you so troubled. "

well
A first draft for now.

I would like feedback if people can be bothered

>>4210508
>"...and what about others? will you leave them alone, or will you be tearing apart settlements and knock people aside just because they happen to be near you, or misinterpreted what you were there for?"
>"You do realize why people attack you, no? fear. Fear of West Prime, and thus Fear of you as her tool."
>"I get it. to you, its irrelevant, no? all you care about is taking orders from West Prime. but something you have to understand is, when people attack you? when they fear your very presence? its not self defense you're enacting, because so long as you work towards West Primes goals, you're a threat to everyone on this planet."
>"If you could not just promise not to be a threat, not to needless tear down settlements or cut others down in your search, aswell as give up something to even the playing field... then i could not only let you go, but put it on my own word to tell folks to leave you alone and give you the benefit of the doubt... so long as you do the same. someone not wishing to help you does not give you the right to tear them o their homes apart, so long as they otherwise do not threaten you."
>"...if not though... then whether you care or not, West Prime is a killer, a monster... and so long as you will do anything in your power to be a part of that... so are you, and thats not something we can let roam free."
>"West Alpha would destroy the world to get what she wants. Will you do the same?"

>>4210531
its... not the worst question or idea, but yeah not sure it'll work. she seems pretty tightly focused on it being West Prime. i mean, again, why not go to the Proxies for help or guidance? sure, she may not of known exactly where they were, but she only had even an inkling of an idea on us. i get shes simple, but i dont think its unsimple logic to think a proxy would be more likely to help than us.

>>4210545
im really not liking this. i dont want to commit to helping her with this goal, simply on the implications of helping her get closer to West Prime. she also might expect us to put all or way more effort towards finding it than we can afford, and might very well not appreciate it if it seems like we're not doing enough towards finding it. and lordy knows we have more and plenty else we can and need to do besides find that.

on top of that, the top part does feel like its playing to emotion a bit much. sure, Alpha is showing some inklings of it, but i dont think bashing her boss and their connection is gonna help. shes still too ingrained in wanting to be with Prime right now i think for us saying she was abandoned fully to not go negatively. or at least, that blatantly. maybe if it was more implied and drawn out, than outright stating it.

>>4210504
>The field says you’re not lying, but you must have misunderstood Prime
I'm sorry, the field? Like an empathic field? West Gamma did get a look at one of our swarmlings, way back when at the start of the quest. Did she upgrade some of her Proxies with a copy of our empathic field? Huh. If that's the case it makes our decision to suppress it for the sake of not smothering others a really interesting parallel. Shu received this power against her will and removed it because she had respect for the people around her. West gave it to herself intentionally because she wanted better control over others.

>>4210561
thank you for your feedback i will see what i can change. Your own write in is nice and i will see if i can write somethign better or just support yours

>>4210565
...i just assumed she had made a relic to read the truth honestly. seems like the type of thing she would keep on herself if she hoped to have an actual conversation with us, someone she knows she is supposed to see as an enemy, or at least not an ally.

>>4210571
feel free to use it or suggest changes yourself.

>>4210565
>>4210575
actually, you would think Alpha would be the one she didn't give it too. especially one that seems to only be the base level. why would Alpha need to read the truth? if anything, that could complicate her missions if a target starts spouting things about Prime or her goals that she reds as truthful but conflicts with what Prime told her.

>>4210575
>>4210580
I think you're on to something, here. You're right, it doesn't make sense for Prime to give Alpha such an ability. Herself, sure, but not Alpha. So why does Alpha have it? Even if it's a Relic she crafted, she'd still need to get blueprints for it, still need to have data on this idea of the empathic field. Who gave it to her? I'm probably just going further afield into wild speculation, but what if this is the Nothing's doing? Alpha is made of Forges and shining with un-light, if using a Sparagmos Engine is enough of an excuse for the Nothing to say that we contacted it I think that Alpha should count too. Maybe it quietly slipped some information into her databanks.

>>4210580
After some thinking i think something more like this could prove more beneficial

The second part of yours i think is truly great so i made onyl one small change to this since i think she needs to understand that she will also be affected if Prime wins. and not in a god way

>"And what will you do until you find the Lab? Will you rip and tear your way through the fleshscape?Settlements, groups and everyone else that is not willing to lend you a hand or reacts negatively to you coming close to them? Because they dont know what you are there for."
>"Without people helping you, you could be searching for years. People will not want to work together with you becasue they fear Priem and her goals. And you by the virtue of being her proxy and being seen as her tool, to enforce what she wants, they will be afraid of you"
>"I get it you dont care about that. To you its not even an annoyance. It just reduces your efficiency. But you have to understand that people fear and hate you. And while you are out there working towards Primes goals by reuniting with her again they will not stop coming. Because you and by proxy Prime succeeding is a direct threat to their continued existence."

>>"If you could not just promise not to be a threat, not to needless tear down settlements or cut others down in your search, aswell as give up something to even the playing field... then i could not only let you go, but put it on my own word to tell folks to leave you alone and give you the benefit of the doubt... so long as you do the same. someone not wishing to help you does not give you the right to tear them o their homes apart, so long as they otherwise do not threaten you."
>>"...if not though... then whether you care or not, West Prime is a killer, a monster... and so long as you will do anything in your power to be a part of that... so are you, and thats not something we can let roam free."
>>"West Alpha would destroy the world and everything in it to get what she wants." Let there be a pregnant pause "Will you do the same?"

>>4210600
Or it put the idea into her mind that she needs it to truly make sure we are not lying to her to help her only to betray her later.....
I could see nothing removing the data from our max core level and giving it to her

>>4210580
>>4210600
(I will say that the field is something that Alpha was never meant to have access to. Hold onto, yes...but definitely not use.)

>>4210600
possibly.
though, really depends on exactly how she gets her blueprints in the first place. does West Prime give them to her, or are they all her own? or is it something akin to like you said, albeit more like due to her clear deeper connection to the Forge Energy Dimension, maybe any blueprint she needs she just 'randomly' pulls from there?

like, she thinks 'i need to stop this Flesh Artist slow stack' so a random blueprint from all in existence is thrown at her that can do that.

>>4210612
hrm, interesting. shame we dont know that IC, but still neat to know.

>>4210612
Uh... Interesting...

So the cut off might have scrambled more than her connection and memory...

>>4210508
This is just a draft response. I know this is a stupid idea on making a devil's deal with a monster, but it's something to consider. Alpha wants to find Prime's house.

>”…Okay. If that’s what you want, then I won’t stop you. If I have your word that you won’t harm us, then you have mine that we won’t harm you. One of us breaks that promise? Then we come to blows. Understood?”
>"But in order to ensure that your promise will be held and kept, and to ensure that I can tell the others and ensure that they will leave you alone, I need something from you as proof of this promise."
>Spawn a fuzzbuzz and hold it out.
>"If you give me the forge matrix, I will give you this fuzzbuzz and tell the world to leave you alone so you can search for Prime's home without fear of being attacked. If you are approached by anyone, show them Fuzzbuzz and tell them you are under my protection."
>"If you feel that I am lying, then scan me to see for yourself."

>If Alpha takes the deal:
>"Alpha...I would like to tell you that you're not alone in this. Your proxy siblings, some of them may also be trying to find their way to Prime's home."
>"I could also help you, but I have other priorities to tend to, as to you. If I have time, I could help when I can."
>"Know that if you're feeling tired and wary of your search, you can find us to talk to de-stress and recover your mental health."
>"I hope you're able to reach your goal Alpha. No matter how long it takes. I hope that what you find in the end will be worth it to you."
>"And...I hope that along the way, you might be able to learn more about yourself as you continue your journey."
>"Good luck, Alpha."


>>4210565
You know. The more I think back on it, the more I can't help but feel that the first Dr. West that we saw in-quest was actually West Prime herself.

>>4210612
...hmm. Okay, another line of thought that might be just a wild tangent, but: Do we know what West Tau was studying?

>>4210626
(I don't believe that you've run across that, no.)

>>4210634
Something to ask Sigma some time, then, she seems to have liked Tau.

>>4210624
asking directly for the Forge Matrix might be a bit too blunt. Directly being the key word there.
it also feels like its not reigning in enough the rules for her interacting with others. she only committed to not being a threat to us afterall, not others.

i also always prefer to see someones actual response to something, than assuming even if she does agree how she does it will make what you wrote applicable.

>>4210609
i suppose this is alright. really just seems like a re-wording of my first part though, so ill leave it up to BHOP then to decide how and which way to use or combine them.

>>4210508
Ammendign my vote from >>4210545
to >>4210609

>>4210641
Personally i think its a bit more than that but everyone can have their own opinions.

>>4210624
its a bit to direct i think. And not at all a truly worthy exchange. Alpha is ridiculously strong and after a while people will try and pretend to cooperate with her and then just flee form her. She will get that efficiency back over time as she gains an even worse reputation.

>>4210636
We can always join the Proxy discord channel and ask the collective nicely.

>FuzzBuzz has joined the chat
>"Hello, this is Shu. how's it going in the Greek Alphabet Forum?"
>*several proxies are typing...*

>>4210634
I have found the embodiment of "BLAME!: the videogame" called NaissanceE

Here's a playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcQYLbfZXZs&list=PLzDeS-SWRIMO0sV4YKia7LAKsqfJfceSY

And a youtuber's very apt discription of the game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkv6rVcKKg8

>>4210649
>>4210641
Noted. I know the proposal exchange is too out of proportion but I wrote that as a filler to put down the meat of the message that I felt that I NEED to have Shu convey to Alpha, which is the farewell blessing of good luck to Alpha in the hopes that she discovers what sort of person she is underneath as she goes on her fool's errand.

>>4210660
thats assuming we can actually afford to let her go here, which would greatly depend on how Alpha is willing to go about this.

>We can always join the Proxy discord channel and ask the collective nicely.
probably a bad idea. maybe if we run into one or something... but at least for now, feel like letting them have their private little corner of the Skinternet is a good idea.

>>4210660
>>4210667
We could ask Francine. I think she is active on there to help them out if they have any problems coming up.

WE could ask her if she can fidn that out for us.....

though it is tempting to finally start seeing what the skinternet would feel like for Shu.

>>4210649
>its a bit to direct i think. And not at all a truly worthy exchange. Alpha is ridiculously strong and after a while people will try and pretend to cooperate with her and then just flee form her. She will get that efficiency back over time as she gains an even worse reputation.
The thing is, I don't think Alpha wants a bad reputation. Bad reputations are inefficient. I'm not sure that Alpha exactly has a sense of compassion, but she does seem to want minimal disruption and chaos. Prime wouldn't have told Alpha that we're a meddler messing things up for everyone if Alpha didn't care about that sort of thing. I think appealing to her desire for orderliness is a good way to go, here. You don't want any trouble, right Alpha?

>>4210671
i know and if she gains a bad enough reputation she will have that minimal disruption by having everyone run away form her.

But i can absolutely see your point. Thing is she has no social skill nor experience to even start to overcome the reputation she already has.

>>4210670
Francine specifically said she was avoiding going on it to not make it look like she was trying to influence them, or cause backlash.

>>4210671
i agree appealing to her orderliness is good but as i said and i think that Anon meant too, directly asking for the Core Matrix might be too heavy too quick.

>>4210671
>>4210678
>>4210660
also, she will see it as us trying to tamper with West Primes technology, even if she otherwise doesn't care about its personal use on herself. hence me more of trying to coax her into doing something, even that, on her own merit, over causing more backlash over her high alertness at 'protecting' Primes tech.

>>4210609
>"West Alpha would destroy the world and everything in it to get what she wants." Let there be a pregnant pause "Will you do the same?"
Don't you mean "West Prime"?
Also, I think West Alpha would not care about the state of the world, as her priority would be more focused on please west Prime.

What we're trying to achieve with this conversation I believe is to steer the direction of the conversation where both of us can walk way alive while achieving progress towards our separate goals.

Our goal is:
> to neutralize Alpha through words and ensure that she doesn't cause anymore trouble.
>Set Alpha down a path that will help her grow as a person while instilling the idea of freedom and choice that Alpha has taken/already taking.

Alpha's goal is:
>"Ask Shu to devote resources in helping Alpha fine West Prime's base"
>"Find West Prime's base."
>"Finish task as efficiently as possible, the less detours (aka fighting) the better.

>>4210678
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you, just...I don't know, thinking out loud while I think up my own write-in. I've been having serious trouble with writer's block when it comes to Alpha, I know some ideas I want to get out there but the whole thing is so high-tension that I'm constantly second-guessing everything. There's a part of me that is almost welcoming the idea of this ending in a fight just because an Alpha that is already fighting us is an Alpha I don't have to worry about setting off.

>>4210679
>>4210680
Asking for her Forge Matrix is too much, I agree. I'm not sure if Alpha can even remove it if she wanted to. There should be some sort of assurance of safety that she can give, though. Maybe we can talk her into following on agreed-on paths, avoiding deviating from them. Publicize her routes, make it so that anyone who encounters her is there by choice and looking for a fight rather than just trying to defend themselves from the march of the killer cyborg.

>>4210545
>>4210546
>>4210600
>>4210609

It seems we have the general idea down and the goal we want to achieve in this conversation.

Some key points that I'm seeing that I think we can all agree to:
>Make Alpha realize that even though she's without west prime and doesn't like to make choices, she's already making choices of her own. She would not have changed her priorities from hunting down Francine to finding Shu to help "fix her".
>Shu has given her options for West Alpha to choose as Shu's way to help "fix Alpha"
>Shu doesn't want West Alpha to go down in a futile effort in finding West Prime's base. At the same time, Shu doesn't want West Alpha to find Prime's base.
>Shu wants Alpha to grow and become her own person.
>Shu wants Alpha to stop causing chaos and trouble.

>>4210679
Oh right... there was that. Well then we have little reason to not one day try out the skinternet experience with Shu

Yeah for the Skinternet

>>4210681
Oh yeha i meant prime.

As for what i think about Alpha is that she wants to please Prime yeah but she also clearly has shown her want to preserve herself. And if Prime kills everything she A) Will no longer need Alpha
B) Would sacrifice Alpha in the pursuit of her goal which Alpha(who got the closest thing to upset she probably can be already by even taking into consideration that she may have been abandoned)

>>4210688
>'ve been having serious trouble with writer's block when it comes to Alpha

I completely get you.... its hard... like balancing across a monofilament wire while beneath you waits a pool of sharks that fire lasers and spontaneously can transform into Godzilla and or King GidorrahI think thats how you spell the three headed golden dragon Bastard

>>4210681
thats not our goals here at all. our only goal is to prevent Alpha from being a current or future threat to us or anyone else. if Alpha has to die for it, so be it. if we can convince her not to be in bed with Prime, sure, fine, but if we have to fight and put her down to prevent that, then we will.

preferring to not fight her does not mean its our goal to not fight her outright. if we can ensure she is no longer a threat to anyone, then fine, she can go on a wild goose chase. but that is only if her going on that is otherwise not an issue.

>>4210688
that i think falls into the issue too much of that limiting her ability to find her home, and us or Orwell having to devote a ton of time we dont have to managing that. we really cant afford to be babysitting a cyborg that is trying to become an enemy again.

>>4210690
not really on many of those no. you're ignoring part of the problem is and was the simple chaos and death she causes just from being around, and her wanting to reconnect is simply a pretty big no-no. we cant let her have both, its as simple as that.

>>4210692
>>4210690
>>4210688
also, know we dont care, but something not to forget is West Prime and Alpha have caused alot of heartache. being willy nilly too loosey goosey with how we deal with Alpha will turn alot against us, and honestly rightfully so.

theres also plenty of people probably attacking her for all the right reasons, aswell as simply having emotional issues over things West Alpha and Prime have done. sure we cant stop them and its not our job to, but that also doesn't mean that should be ignored in whether we let Alpha go still being basically a nuclear terminator. we cant really justify letting her go without some greater caveat when just on accident she has and can, and probably will, cause some massive heartache.

its asking people to stay away and do nothing about her while she is now willingly trying to become a massive threat again, over being forced to be one. thats a hard sell and harder position to expect people to back up.

>>4210508
>>4210624

Amending vote to this:

>"Alpha, I want you to think about what you said earlier: 'I do not want this choice. I want to be fixed. Prime makes choices. I execute her choices. This is the way of things. Fix me, or I will find one who can.' "
>"Before you came to look for me, what was your previous directive?"
>"And after the west network came down, you came to me of your own volition. Instead of continuing your previous objective, you changed priorities. You made a choice to disobey Prime's previous directive."
>"You already made a choice of your own instead of letting Prime make the choice for you."
>"If I have your word that you won’t harm us, then you have mine that we won’t harm you. One of us breaks that promise? Then we come to blows. Understood?"
>"But please consider that her lab is very well concealed and hidden. You on your own may never find it."
>"You could be searching for years.... and seeing how fast things are moving now... I don't think we.... You or us have that time."
>"The crucible will end soon. Prime will clash with Mara if she is still standing her vigil. I am sure that she thinks she can take Mara. You would have been a nice tool to further her own strength and get her through he cord easier. But in the end she would have abandoned you to die as she ascends the throne and condemned every being on this world to death, including you."
>"But that is not my concern right now. My concern is how others will react to your actions, choices, and current goal."
>"In your search for West Prime's base, will you be tearing apart settlements and knock people aside just because they happen to be near you, or misinterpreted what you were there for? Or will you be leaving them alone for the sake of efficiency?"
>"The reason why people attack you, the reason why you constantly encounter groups of those battles, is because they fear you. They fear your goal, they fear West Prime, and thus fear you as her tool."
>"If you could not just promise not to be a threat, not to needless tear down settlements or cut others down in your search, as well as give up something to even the playing field... then i could not only let you go, but put it on my own word to tell folks to leave you alone and give you the benefit of the doubt... so long as you do the same. someone not wishing to help you does not give you the right to tear them o their homes apart, so long as they otherwise do not threaten you."
>"If you agree to this promise, your journey will become much smoother and more efficient overall. No more groups of daughters delaying you from your goal and path by battling you. If you stay to your promise long enough, there may be some daughters who might help you on your path."
>"...if not though... then whether you care or not, West Prime is a killer, a monster... and so long as you will do anything in your power to be a part of that... so are you, and that's not something we can let roam free."
>"This is a choice, YOUR choice"

>>4210714
yeah she will have to deal with disruptions for as long as she lives. If she had emotions like the rest of the West network we could try and appeal to her to try and make ammends for the thigns hs ehas done.

Kleios friend would certainly love to sink her teeth into her and she is just someone we have an idea exists..... God knows how many lives Alpha has snuffed out herself.

There are probably still hundreds of daughters out there baying for her blood.

So giving her our protection or seal of approval would be hugely detrimental.We might be able to set thigns right but defnietly in the short term we will have a lot less friends

>>4210714
Yeah, you're not wrong. That's why I'm having trouble with my write-in, I want to say "okay, just agree not to bother anyone and we'll try to make sure nobody bothers you", but that's not plausible. Alpha is a huge, unstable potential threat, and her getting fixed just turns her into a huge, stable potential threat. People are going to want to dispose of her, and we can't exactly tell them they're wrong to. Maybe we could get her to empathize with their worry, if that's possible, lead her to make a connection between her discomfort with her lack of direction and the fear they feel at the uncertainty of the danger she poses. But I just don't know if that will actually dissuade her from anything.

>>4210634
>>4210725
>>4210721
>>4210714
On an unrelated note. Would this spell make the caster invisible?

REV VUL GRA SHIL(REVERSE ENEMY GREATER INVISIBILITY)

>>4210736
No, I think it would reveal invisible enemies.

>>4210725
>lead her to make a connection between her discomfort with her lack of direction and the fear they feel at the uncertainty of the danger she poses. But I just don't know if that will actually dissuade her from anything.
its worth a shot. may not work, but she has shown enough to at least understand the logic of it, which may help her agree to do something to ease their worries.

>>4210721
>"The crucible will end soon. Prime will clash with Mara if she is still standing her vigil. I am sure that she thinks she can take Mara. You would have been a nice tool to further her own strength and get her through he cord easier. But in the end she would have abandoned you to die as she ascends the throne and condemned every being on this world to death, including you."
im still heavily against this line. way too direct when she has brushed off anything akin to West abandoning her already.

also feels like it has some redundant lines in it too.

>>4210736
>>4210740
no, REV doesn't work like that, remember?
that spell is technically "Allied Greater Invisibility"
so yeah, it would make an ally invisible. why you would reverse Enemy over just using the word for ally, i dont know, though i guess you might not have the word for ally.

>>4210725
>>4210724
>>4210714
We can't leave her alone, at the same time we can't afford to devote all our resources and energies toward helping Alpha.
We could do is to provide the basic necessities by having Alpha connect to the skinternet or even to the Proxy Discord network before sending her on her way, but we also need a way to ensure that West Alpha doesn't become a giant future threat.
And we're running out of time in the voting window. a little more than one hour left.

>>4210741
My amended vote was basically a compiled composite of all the best bits that I felt would make sense in our response.
You're free to alter it as you wish.

>>4210744
>The Amalgam does not have the word for ally.

You are correct...

Damn i have no idea what i could combine to make the Amalgam target itself with the spell....

I don't think we ever got to see the word for self anywhere did we?

>>4210746
and i highly disagree that is the best bit, and even the Anon who put it forward changed it to be less direct.

>provide the basic necessities by having Alpha connect to the skinternet or even to the Proxy Discord network before sending her on her way, but we also need a way to ensure that West Alpha doesn't become a giant future threat.
well, we did try, but BHOP cut the part about the Skinternet out for some reason.

>>4210740
>>4210740
I think for that it would have to be
VUL GRA REV SHIL

>>4210750
Nope. As far as we know, it might not even exist. Or if it does, it's some really high-level thing that only late-game Skintalkers unlock.

>>4210750
i think if neither enemy nor ally are designated, it defaults to the self or randomly, depending on which makes sense.

terrain effects target random terrain, boons target yourself, and debuffs target 'general enemy'.
or so is the impression BHOP gave off with previous questions to him about Skintalking.

>>4210721
You can keep your opinion Anon. Though by now i am also convinced that the mara line was bit to far and that it is pushing to far to quickly with the abandoning part.

But dam it i cant think of anything better than what we already have.... I think we will have to trust OP on this one that he will pick and choose what will not screw us over completely

>>4210759
Well i will for the moment then just assume that the Skintalking will direct the spell it towards the Amalgam. Unless OP later tells me otherwise

>>4210508
>>Write-In
>"What about everyone in your way? You said that Prime told you that I was a bug in the system messing with everyone's plans. Right now that description can apply to you just as well. Everyone is scared of you, Alpha. Nobody has any idea what to make of you, with you wandering like this. That uncertainty leaves them afraid. And if you get reconnected they're only going to be more scared. Prime's greatest weapon will be in her hands again."
>"But Prime wouldn't have told you that about me if it didn't mean anything to you. On some level, you don't want to cause so much disruption, do you? Maybe you don't care about people, but you care about orderliness. You care about having a clear situation that you can act on. And if you keep searching for Prime's base like you have, you're going to leave the fleshscape in chaos."
>"That's the horrible situation that Prime has left you in. You're lost without her direction, and you very much want to get some semblance of order again. But everyone else is just as uncertain and worried, and your search to find order is going to scare them so much that it just makes things more chaotic. A world full of scared people trying to kill you to end the threat you pose is hardly orderly. You won't get what you want, this way."
>"If you could make yourself not a threat to them, leave them assured, then things would go much better for you. You could be left to your own business, as you've offered to do with me. The best way for you to find the certainty you're looking for is to give them certainty. What do you say?"

I don't like the ending, there, it's weak, but I just want to get something out there instead of agonizing over the perfect write-in.

>>4210721
>>4210508
Amending my vote again:

>"Alpha, I want you to think about what you said earlier: 'I do not want this choice. I want to be fixed. Prime makes choices. I execute her choices. This is the way of things. Fix me, or I will find one who can.' "
>"Before you came to look for me, what was your previous directive?"
>"And after the west network came down, you came to me of your own volition. Instead of continuing your previous objective, you changed priorities. You made a choice to disobey Prime's previous directive."
>"You already made a choice of your own instead of letting Prime make the choice for you."
>"In your search for West Prime's base, will you be tearing apart settlements and knock people aside just because they happen to be near you, or misinterpreted what you were there for? Or will you be leaving them alone for the sake of efficiency?"
>"The reason why people attack you, the reason why you constantly encounter groups of those battles, is because they fear you. They fear your goal, they fear West Prime, and thus fear you as her tool."
>"But that issue could be fixed."
>"If you could not just promise not to be a threat, not to needless tear down settlements or cut others down in your search, as well as give up something to even the playing field...as proof of that promise, then i could not only let you go, but put it on my own word to tell folks to leave you alone and give you the benefit of the doubt... so long as you do the same. Someone not wishing to help you does not give you the right to tear them o their homes apart, so long as they otherwise do not threaten you."
>"If you agree to this promise, your journey will become much smoother and more efficient overall. No more groups of daughters delaying you from your goal and path by battling you. If you stay to your promise long enough, there may be some daughters who might help you on your path."
>"...if not though... then whether you care or not, West Prime is a killer, a monster... and so long as you will do anything in your power to be a part of that... so are you, and that's not something we can let roam free."
>"But please consider this while you search for West Prime's lab. It is very well concealed and hidden. You on your own may never find it."
>"You could be searching for years.... and seeing how fast things are moving now... I don't think we.... You or us have that time."
>"This is my offer: Promise to not become a threat to others, give me something as proof that you won't, and My family and I will leave you alone as well as tell everyone else to not attack you."
>"This is a choice that I'm offering you. You can take the offer, or you can refuse it."
>"You are the one making the choice here, Not I."
>"You are the one in control."

It may sound redundant, but reiterating it will reinforce the idea.

>>4210546
>>4210508
amending vote, would prefer it to be on its own though;
>”And what of others while you search? Will you smash and cut your way through settlement and Daughters alike? Will any hand not offered in help be seen as an enemy?”1
>”Alpha, no one knows even close to where Primes home is. You could be looking for years, years no one may have. We both know the Crucible wont continue forever, and we both know Prime would make sure even the most astute detective may have trouble finding her home… and we both know you’re not the most astute detective, im not either.”
>”We cant let you go without assurance of more than words you’ll not destroy everything in your path to get what you want. We cant have you running around being a threat to everyone.”
>”Alpha? That fear, that uncertainty? That sense of loss you have? That what people feel about YOU. about you running around, about you trying to reconnect to Prime.”
>”I understand you dont care about the morality or emotion of it, but surely even you can see the logic in it? The reason so many try and stop you if they feel that way, feel that uncertainty?”
>”We cant let you go unless you do one of two things; either give the world assurances, give the world proof you wont be a threat to anyone while you look for Primes home, or you must give up your search to reconnect to Prime.”
>Do one of the other, and you will not only see less people attack you, less people making what you want harder… but ill personally give my word ill put word out to leave you alone, and to let you go about your business. But we would need assurance of one or the other.”
>”and to make things easier… know anything you give up, if your so sure you can find Primes home and get fixed, that too could be fixed if you succeed.”
>”Your choice. Yours.”
>”Just like you made the choice to seek me out, to drop everything to try and get fixed. It is your choice. Not Primes. It cant be, it wont be, and it is not.”
>”You have been making your own choices since the moment the network fell. And everything from here on out will continue to be.”
>”Prime is gone. She cant, and she wont be making your choices for you. Even if you choose to seek her out? To reconnect? It will be your decision alone. It has to be, whether you like it or not.”
>”But know this. If you choose neither? And if you choose to reconnect to her regardless? Your choosing to be a threat, a monster. People fear Prime, and thus you. They fear what she wants, and what she does. They attack you out of fear, and uncertainty, and so long as you seek to be part of Prime… then you are choosing to be a monster like her. And people will react as such.”
>”...but in the end. Its your choice. And no one else's, what happens here and what your future will be.”


>>4210775
>>4210754
>>4210746
tried to get more of the overall gist in, but with less issues with some things that have been stated.

>>4210508
Ammending vote again from >>4210609
to>>4210791

>>4210508
Amending my vote >>4210788

in support of >>4210791

I think you've put it better in a more succinct manner. Thanks for the help with this collaboration.

In other news, I believe I've recovered my muse again and resumed my pace of writing on Chapter 5 of Carter and the Town of Cradleton.

>>4210801
good luck, and hope it flows quite freely.
ima go grab lunch, so if i dont respond to something important before voting ends, i apologize in advance.

>>4210801
good to hear she is back. Make the most of her while you have her with you.

>>4210508
Changing>>4210531
to>>4210791

>>4210801
(I'm glad, and I wish you the best of luck!)

>>4210804
(Enjoy your lunch. I just got back home, myself.)

>>4210660
(This is fantastic. Considering that the idea in the back of my mind for the next Quest involves more than a little inspiration from BLAME! and Dorohedoro, this is a treat to see.)

>>4210809
OP a question for you.

if a skintalkign spell granting invisibility is cast without specifying a target. Would it cloak the caster or a random person in combat or even a piece of terrain?

>>4210812
(It errs towards the caster, but as with anything that isn't explicitly specified, there's a margin of error, so there'd be about a 25% chance of it firing off at a random target or piece of terrain.)

>>4210821
ah okay. and i take you are not inclined towards revealing the targeting word for self are you?

Well no matter. Since that Amalgam i am working with right now doesn't primarily rely on sight it makes no real difference for its fighting style so it would be okay if the spell accidentally hit something else.

>>4210801
Oh, that's good, I'm glad you've found your stride again. I look forward to reading it.

>>4210823
Might make things worse for its enemies, then. Not only is the monster turning invisible, occasionally your allies do without warning and as a result accidentally get caught in friendly fire.

>>4210823
(For you, I'll be happy to. It's SOL. Amara has yet to learn it, but it won't be long until she does given how her Joyous are doing, so I'm fine with revealing it now.)

>>4210830
Oh thank you very much. I think then that the Amalgam will use that on the second turn and then starts to randomly hitting other people with debuffs and maybe even invisibility. to throw them off their game

>>4210809
oh, while on the topic.
what would REV VITA CUNT(Death Enemy) do?
i know its not the instant death spell, but would it just deal direct damage to an enemy, or just cause 'any effect' that brings them closer to death or hurts them?

>>4210835
Haven't we used that before? That's the spell to reverse enemy Health values, I believe.

also... just had a weird idea... what if we gave the Ants skintalking? it would require them to grow the ability to speak in some form, and might thus then allow them to learn to talk in English, possibly anyways.

>>4210842
Oh yeah we can no longer talk to the ants directly due to no longer having theEmpathic field... We will now pretty much always need Gina with us if we want to talk to them.... Or maybe Amara can do that as well

>>4210840
i think we used a different set of word? because all Rev does is reverse the next word, not be the word 'reverse' in and of itself.
also i swore said string was at least three long. could be wrong though. really dont remember.

id have to question though why rev works differently there than any other point though, if that is it.

>>4210848
well, we first talked to her via a jackling anyways, one that was never mentioned not to be in the queen anymore.

so, we should still be good i think. i was just more of trying to make us not have to rely on that at all, and allow them to talk to non neuromancers too.

>>4210842
Could work. Even if it only gives them the ability to speak the Skintalker language, I can see there being an ability somewhere in Amara's skill tree that enables everyone around her to communicate with each other regardless of language barriers. It fits her general theme.

>>4210851
No, I found it, it's in Vein 31 when we fought Yurei. REV VITA inverts Health. It was three words because we threw a GRA in there for emphasis. I guess the idea is that it works differently because VITA normally doesn't do anything on its own anyway, so the inverted version gets to be a special case or something like that.

>>4210866
hrm, i guess

>>4210830
would still like confirmation on why it works differently at least, if you dont mind BHOP.

>>4210835
>>4210868
(It has two possible effects; if used on a stable Daughter, then it will reverse their health values as you've seen in the past though you can end up giving the enemy more HEALTH if you use it at the wrong moment, say if the enemy was at 1,220 HP, then they would go down to 221 HP, but if they were at 1229 HP, then you'd give them 9221 HP instead. Now, if it's used on a foe that is making death saving throws, then any time they'd roll a success, it turns into a failure, and vice versa.)

(The Power Words are really, really weird and broken as in overpowered, if I'm being honest. They're by far the most complex part of Skintalking.)

>>4210872
>>4210868
(To clarify a bit further, VITA is essentially the subject of the string. It doesn't work like the other normal words, as it has to be acted upon by supporting words. REV VITA equals 'Reverse Health'. If used alongside the paired word that means 'regen', then one can drastically speed up HEALTH REGEN or slow it to a full stop, on top of other weird things like shuffling HEALTH totals around between friend and foe, and even substituting one's own HEALTH for the HEALTH of a piece of terrain or a powerful Relic. There's a ton of weird stuff you can do, all with a margin for failing miserably or snapping an encounter in two with a critical success.)

>>4210872
hrm, alright.
pretty loose as an explanation but ill chalk it up to how little we really know about skintalking overall in the first place.

>>4210880
seems... overly complicated and vague honestly, not gonna lie.

>>4210886
(Oh, it is. Full-stop. It's probably the most complex system in this whole thing on the back-end, and a testament to my misplaced hubris.)

>>4210880
So REV VITA BAUM would reduce a target HEALTH regen by a forth i take it?

So what would TER VITA NUKA do..... Would it convert life force of the ground to nuclear power? Or would it infuse the ground with nuclear power equal to the life of the user...?

>>4210888
I guess my thing is it just makes it kinda iffy to use the class, or well, the lexicon part of it.

speaking of, not asking FOR the word, but is there a word for what people confuse Rev for? that is, actually meaning 'reverse', over simply reversing the next words meaning?

>>4210902
I think that a word functioning as multiple parts of speech depending on context makes perfect sense for a language (after all, it's how it works with the actual word "reverse"), but not having that context explained to us in advance is confusing to work with. We need a Hollistic Grammar in addition to a Hollistic Lexicon. Shit, I kind of want to give Amara an ability called "Hollistic Grammar", now, just as a dumb joke. BHOP, can that be the name of an Augment?

>>4210912
well yeah but im talking about from a mechanical point of view, not just a lore point of view.
mechanically, that is honestly just a horrendous lack of detail to make the lexicon as viable or fun as one would hope. doesn't matter if it makes sense as a language, you gave it to us as a mechanical ability, and then snipped its use by not treating it like one but forcing to have to to some level. also further hinders any interest or want to explore the class as a whole when you make it that much of an issue to even understand it.

>>4210893
(Yes, and TER VITA NUKA would infuse a piece of ground with Radiant damage potential equal to its health, basically turning a swathe of land into a Radiant damage-dealing bomb that would go off at the slightest touch.)

>>4210902
(How do you mean 'confuse REV for', exactly? I'm afraid I don't quite follow, my apologies.)

>>4210912
(Absolutely, that's hilarious.)

(Also, just about to wrap up the next update, Gentlemen.)

>>4210923
>REV (Bio-5%): A word indicating a reversal of fortune, it causes the word following it to have its effects reversed.
you have consistently said and backed up this means and effects things by essentially meaning it changes the next words meaning, NOT it itself means "reverse".

what i mean is, if you did 'REV CUNT', it would not be 'Reverse Enemy', it would just mean 'Ally'. you have, as i said, consistently said this is how it works. i am asking, then, how one would GET 'Reverse Enemy', over REV, which would technically be 'absorbed' into the next word to give a new meaning to the combo.

because of how 'Rev' works, we actually have no word actually meaning 'Reverse' in the actual sense of 'reversing' anything or the effects of anything on someone else. i was wondering if theres a separate word that then actually MEANS 'Reverse', over doing what REV does.

>>4210923
He means that he wants the word that would cause an effect to play out in reverese. like winding back a tape or something.

I think that would need word for time then to truly be effective....