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>>87315526

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>>87315533

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I would like to post more but jannies will ban me
Fucking indigenious women with their tits out

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>>87315661

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>>87315678

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>>87315678
the deer funnily work.
For the game, the Elf-tecs bolster their numbers by crossing men with beasts, helps them rule over the human city states.

>>87315526
It's got to be an absolute pain in the ass to get from one side of that place to the other.

>>87316177
ogga booba

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>>87317544
It gets hot in Mexico, and when you have jungle overhead you can get away with going with less shirt than normal. Even the Spanish Conquistadors went around with less on.

>>87315526
>I really need more Aztec Elves

Have you ever heard of something called EE-BEAR-ON?

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>>87317676
Unironically no, I have no idea what the details of Eberron were until I started looking at the wiki article for the Aztec part.
I thank you for your recommendation and I have been able to pull a few more. I should now have enough to have both male and female elves now.

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>>87317655
>Even the Spanish Conquistadors went around with less on.
Okay, not OP, but sauce on that please.

>>87315533
>>87315526
Why are dinosaurs so common in mesoamerican fantasies?

>>87320201
Primarily from this book, Phillips, Charles "The Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec & Maya: The Definitive Chronicle of the Ancient Peoples of Central America & Mexico - Including the Aztec, Maya, Olmec, Mixtec, Toltec & Zapotec" 2015.
It was good armor, and it was better for their environment than European armor so the Spanish often replaced theirs with indigenous armor. Which apparently could resist musket shots well.
Remember that for every Spaniard fighting they had another 10 native allies fighting with them, so it's not like the idea most people have of the invasion where a hundred guys killed thousands by themselves because of their superior technology(over a third of them fucking dies), but a combination of complicated political alliances, plague, and backstabbing. Don't get the idea people fought for Cortez out of a desire for freedom from Aztec tyranny or something either, they didn't have an empire they directly controlled it was a sphere of influence and the city-states within said sphere sent tribute and slaves to Tenochtitlan and they wanted to use the Spanish to set themselves up as the hegemon instead of the Aztecs.

>>87320214
Games Workshop probably.

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>>87320214
>>87320527
Yeah Games workshop, also feathered reptiles mesh well with the aesthetics(which is probably why Games Workshop did it as well). Those in Mexico did not have as many livestock beyond dogs and turkey, so giving them dinosaurs kills two birds with one stone in giving them something to pull carts and letting you have super cool dinos. The dinos fitting since mesoamerican also tends to be very lost world in appearance.

>>87317787
Oh! Then I'm happy to have helped. I wish you much easy finding of sources!

>>87322311
The problem is giving them beasts of burden and cavalry changes them on a fundamental level. The reason Mesoamerican city states were like that was because they didn't have draft animals so had to do all that shit by hand and couldn't directly control more than their own city directly.

Anyone know where I can find some good Nahuatl names?
Something more than the thousand baby name sites. I just don't trust those.

>>87320214
feathered serpent + very good paleontology in south america

>>87323481
honestly, these sorts of late theropods probably would have a place in culture above other animals. I doubt they're good eating, too light weight for labour, but they are very pretty.

>>87323640
https://sixthsunridaz.com/nahuatl-names/

bomp

>>87320214
>>87320527
>>87322311
Never thought of it, but also might have something to do with the acambaro figures

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>>87326323
fug forgot file

>>87320527
>good armor
for the stone age weaponry and glorified slave raids that passed as warfare the region was using. surviving accounts detail the spanish wading through aztecs like doom guy hopped up on catholicism and goldlust and could only be brought down when they were too tired to stab with their half pound swords or had malaria. even mesophiles like that autistic texan professor dont try this handwaving, as they usually talk up meso weapons (muh oak swords) instead and gloss over spaniards/tlaxcalans getting speared in the throat and not even being incapacitated
>muh alliances
the aztecs were reliant on sneak attacks during truces and maintaining control through behavior reminiscent of the assyrians on a bad day. it couldve been the chinese, moslems, or even the romans and the tribes wouldve still thrown in behind them
>le plague
didnt fuck up the tlaxcalans. the aztecs got fucked up because they prioritized looting bodies before post battle sanitation and moctezumas usurper was more prone to chimpouts
>they wanted to use the spanish to set themselves up as the hegemon
tlaxcala remained loyal to spain from the beginning of their alliance, to such an extent that they were granted the same rights as spanish nobility but never sought to conquer the region once the aztecs were done. neither did any of the others iirc.
>>>d/is/cord
forge cleric best class

>>87323713
That's damn near worse than a baby name site.
Shame on you for posting that garbage.

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>>87315526
What about other fantasy races? Speaking of, how would you modify said fantasy races for a Mesoamerica-derived setting besides simply making them big on sacrificing others?

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>>87323640
I just find what a word means in Nahuatl and use em.
Smoke Frog -> PŌC-TLI-CACA for example.
If if we wanted to name this lady
"tilmàtlilhuicatl" or Cape-Heaven
You can get away with names like that a lot more in the setting, since that is often what names were (at least for Mayans).

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>>87326606
The armor was good as far as cloth armor got. the point of the brine treated cotton was that you could get a stab wound and pull it out safely and reduce how much it pierced.
That a throat stab being somewhat survivable is a decent case in the armor's favor.

But for weapons I agree, there is a reason you only see glass used as weapons in prison shivs. Makes good surgical tools though.

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>>87331247

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>>87331257

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>>87331265

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>>87331483

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>>87320527
It's cotton armor anon, basically a gambeson sourced locally to ease logistics (you have like half a year for stuff to come from spain at best), the only weapon than could puncture trough it be the aztecs was a Thrower. Later one they used leather armor to fight apaches and comanches, as it was enough to stop the majority of they weapons too.

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>>87328509
I base a lot of my titan spawns (humanoid monster from goblins to deep ones) to use glass, ceramic and resin weapons and armors, as iron absorbs and makes wonky working with magic (gold and copper can acumulate and circulate it, so a lot of magic weapons from humans and titans are made of those materials, or a mix of both called tumbaga) I have lots of inspiration from the americas and calcolithic/bronze age cultures for flavour in them, than humans and titanspawn copy and influence each other helps.

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>>87315526
Here you go. How did Mesoamerican peoples treat women BTW, does anyone here know? Were there any female warriors?

>>87315526
Recently archived, but there's some nice Mesoamerican stuff posted/linked there.
>>>/k/56648787

>>87332517
It depended a lot of the tribe. The Amazon river was called that because the bandeirantes said there was a tribe of amazon warrioress in there, but not much more.

>>87332517
Like every other place.

>>87329974
Got a link to a good translator or dictionary then?

>>87326606
>stone age weaponry
They had metals

>>87333085
Interestingly, the stone age Maya after their collapse took the Spanish over 150 years of to conquer.
Something something, the trees speak in Huastecan.

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>>87333755
And to an extent you could say they didn't ~really~ conquer them anyways. To this day you still have the Maya kicking around and the Yucatan is always trying to break away from Mexico now and again.

>>87326606
You clearly haven’t read a single primary source

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>>87334556
Most Spanish primary sources are how badass they were and how they totally killed a million men by themselves because they were superior in every way, only a few show something like grief when recalling the vibrant places they had seen and how now all those people were dead and those places are forever gone.
I also found this image among my porn for some reason, which I'll share here because literal golden armor is near.

>>87334616
Your furry folder, no wonder.

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>>87334616
>how now all those people were dead and those places are forever gone.
? You can go to mexico, Peru,Brasil, Bolivia or whatever and mingle with them speaking they language and keeping lots of they folk ways, lots even they old religions. Or you can read about and learn the languages yourself if you speak spanish, lots of priest recopilated and learned the locals languages and even made gramatics of them.

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>>87334653
If you want to believe that go ahead, I'm not gonna share a screenshot of cunny or monstergirls and get banned again.

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>>87334681
They are changed? Of course, tell me a fucking culture than its the same than 500 years ago...

>>87334681
Places like the great market of Tenochtitlan are gone forever, and those people are now much diminished in terms of numbers and culture. And it was a sudden change in a few years and not a gradual one over the centuries.
Imagine if one day you saw say Mexico city, then in ten years it's just fucking gone and 90% of the people living there are dead and building a new city over its ruins you'd probably be kinda shocked too.

>>87334744
>Places like the great market of Tenochtitlan
And Samarkand, and Pompey, Heracleia, Baghdad... You say that as it doesn't happen every time, the great majority of the cities in Eurasia are build over ancient cities(like Cuzco and lots of american cities btw), for millenia, like the temples, in China entire cities and tribes where levelled and slaugtered during the Tang or Mongol conquest and they don't even have surviving relatives... In the americas it happened the same, the Paracas where exterminated be the Nazcas for example...

>>87334850
And it was fucked up when that happened too and you had people lamenting their loss. Just not usually the people that did it. Especially Pompeii, volcanos only write in Lava.

>>87334616
Stop lying anon you obviously haven’t read shit

>>87334900
But that's life, you have entire cities of native americans From mexico to Chile, they changed culture and mixed with the conquerors, like Alexandrians, Baghdad or Cadiz, Mexico still has one of the biggest markets in the world, you can go there and mix with actual Nahuas than will retain still the language and make you a tortilla with grubs and chiles if its your fancy, or Zapotecs or whatever is your culture than you favor. They just don't retain the culture of 500, 1500 or 2000 years ago, but then no ones does.

>>87335272
Fucking weeaboos.

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>>87335281

>>87337271
>Ack!

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want some chocolate?

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Almost everything posted so far is pretty drastically inauthentic and seems to me to be more based on random sterotypes of Mesoamerican stuff then actual Mesoamerican cities, clothing, etc.

I get it's fantasy, but I think you should still try to be drawing from actual cultural motifs and symbolism and art rather then just pop culture tropes if you're trying to use specific cultural influences, or that if you DO want to deviate from that, that you at least know what things you're breaking intentionally rather then just getting it wrong out of ignorance.

I'm busy so I cannot promise I'll dump a ton of stuff but I can try to post some and answer questions if people have any or want anything

I guess for starters just to explain what bits of art ARE authentic or are at least a well executed fantastical take on things:

>>87315661
>>87315678
>>87315695
These are all extremely grounded and authentic, all are by OHS688. He's specifically drawing from Aztec fashion and armor here and architecture for the third one. ("Aztec" is itself a sort of imprecise term: It can mean the Nahuas in general, the specific Mexica Nahua subgroup which founded Tenochtitlan, or the "Aztec Empire" which was a political network Tenochtitlan was the head of; though be aware it included both Nahua and non Nahua subject states, such as some Zapotec, Maya, Mixtec, Otomi, Totonac, etc ones; and there were some Nahua kingdoms NOT inside that "empire")

Worth noting the first one there with the calvary unit IS fantasy, just very grounded: Obviously the Mesoamericans never had calvary, but the Nahuas did call Spanish horses "Large deer", hence the deer shaped helmets for this hypothetical calvary unit. Note also how the eye of the deer helmet has a red-white glyph in it, which symbolizes eyeballs or stars, which you can also see on the horses harness, and the horse also has it's man tied into a signature soldier hair knot/tassel

>>87329433
A bit out there but could be worse, I like the nose plug

1/?

>>87326340
the what

>>87315661
catbox.moe to circumvent colonialist morals

>>87315695
shitton of marigolds

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>>87338389
this is true, but I am also not an artist. I'm using roll20 and I need whatever I can to enable play. And finding stuff now helps players later, and they might not be giant Nahaultboos like us.
My primary method is to execute it in societal structure, political structure, and pantheon (pantheon also being synthesized with animals of American Indian myths). The parts that can be controlled.
Part of the reason I needed Atzec Elves was that the elves was that communicating the specific subgroup was easiest by making them elves. The other Nahua flavored city states being mainly human. This makes it easy to separate the People, empire, and cultural group.

>>87339589
Nahautl poets and artists really liked marigolds. Think of them like Cherry Blossoms in Japan. Both symbolizing the brief beauty of life.

>>87315678
Love the battle PJs

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>>87339971
I mean it is what warriors of means in Mexico wore at the time. Once again, having no shirt or fucking SHOES in the middle of a Jungle is stupid, the no shoes thing is a GREAT way to get some kind of fucking foot disease. I will also admit i do like the backed sandals look most of these guy rocked into combat.

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>>87340180
There's an interesting division, how in Hispanic countries the elites that wore the suits are called knights instead of just warriors like they are in English.

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>>87330136
What else do you know about Mesoamerican weaponry that hasn't been said here already?

>>87338389
It's a fantasy thread you spastic autist.

>>87323673
>south america

>>87338389
cont:

>>87331257
>>87331490
Again, very out there, and I wish the Jaguar one used feather mosiac rather then actual Jaguar pelts, but I like the ball-player yoke intergrated into the outfir on him, the ehuatl-esque groin armor on the jaguar one, and the shell-bell studded leggingsa which are pretty authentic to some ceremonial outfits for the eagle one. his shield also looks good.

Both also have decently authentic Quetzallalpiloni tassel ornaments attached to the helmets and I like how you can see ichcahupilli gambesonj beneath the plate armor.

This is a good example of somebody knowing their stuff or having done at least basic research and artistically going in a direct direction on purpose while still trying to at least homage some authentic details.

>>87343662
Right, and I get that, but how much of what's been posted is actually intentionally fantastical or is just people having no idea what they're doing?

>>87320527
>>87320201
>>87332031
To expand on this, most Conquistadors couldn't afford plate armor to begin with, so most ALREADY were using Gambeson, which ichcahuipilli vests and tunics basically were: If anything the Conquistadors with the metal plate armor were switching to it, though not all did.

The "and they wanted to use the Spanish to set themselves up as the hegemon instead of the Aztecs." is also a critical point here: a LOT of people assume that the Aztec were hated and that's why Cortes got allies but in reality the entire Aztec political system, and really Mesoamerican politics in general operated in a very hands off way where political allegiences and relationships were pretty dynamic and it was common for say city-state X to pledge themselves or ally with state Y (since, again, subjects generally got to self manage anyways) to then take out their collective captial or rivals, so X could be in a higher political standing in the aftermath in Y's new kingdom.

I speak more about this here: https://pastebin.com/VqW97h93

2/?

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what are good movies about Pre-Columbian America? besides Apocalypto
pic unrelated

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>>87346816
Then stop getting your panties in a twist, isn't like the majority of USA made games, art or RPGs get Medieval europe or any other culture either.

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>>87347073
>The fine craftsmanship on that bow!

>>87347642
huh when I first saw the image I thought it was a tree honestly

>>87346832
>what are good movies about Pre-Columbian America? besides Apocalypto

There aren't, because we have fuck-all records of what it was like.

There's quite a few Mexican movies about the arrival of the Spaniards, presented from the perspective of natives.

>>87340917
No they aren't. "Guerrero águila", "Guerrero jaguar".

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a Nazca Headhunter

>>87317544
based

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>>87346816
>>87320527
>>87320201
>>87332031
Cont:

That being said Cortes's allies didn't really try to assert themselves as a new top dog: Maybe if things had played out slightly differently Cortes and the Spanish may have gotten backstabbed, but historically Tlaxcala, Texcoco, etc were content to try to assert higher political status within the Spanish colional system, which as I said is pretty consistent with how similar pre-hispanic conflicts went down: You had states piggybacking and supprting another more ambitious state's coup/rise to power and benefitting within their new power structure rather then nessacarily siezing the top spot themselves: Texcoco and Tlacopan had done the same thing when they allied with Tenochtitlan when it took out their captial of Azcapotzalco, which is what formed the Aztec Empire

Slaves also weren't super common as taxes/tribute: It doesn't come up in the Codex Mendoza and only does for a minorty of towns in other tax documents, though I recent archaeological excavations of skull racks do suggest there was a regular influx of people from foreign areas coming into Tenochtitlan who got sacrificed. I'd wager most of these were war spoils (IE, slaves given as a initial payment when a city was conquered) rather then via regular tax payments (due to it not coming up much in tax roles and slaves-as-spoils is mentioned more in textual sources) or purchased slaves (keep in mind also slaves had rights and couldn't just be sacrificed whenever... probably, some inconsistent info here), but it's possible the tax documentation is just undereporting it... FOR SURE tho most sacrifices were captured enemy soldiers, NOT civilians


>>87337271
>>87337379
This is by By Mossacannablis; being a dinosaur version of "La fusión de dos culturas" by Jorge González Camarena, but he does some non-fantasy depictions of Mesoamerican fashion too (like pic related). Also note the hair-knot style back trim and red-white eye motif here similar to >>87315661

3/?

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>>87350329
cont:

>>87347946
The Nazca are Andean, not Mesoamerican: The two regions developed civilization totally independently and didn't have a lot of contact, and were located like 4000 kilometers away.

But if we're including Andean stuff, pic related by Mossacannablis is like a blend of Andean and Roman(?) aesthetics, that to tie into my point with the anon below, this actually blends and changes elements to be fantastical in a way that demonstrates the person making it knew what they were doing and INTENTIONALLY made tweaks to suit their artistic vision vs a lot of other people just just not knowing what Mesoamerican or Andean aeshetics were like to begin with

>The art
Is that from Humankind?

Do they have unique unit graphics for generic units compared to the Mesoamerican and North American civs now? Or is it just for the headhunter?

>>87347073
European or Japanese fantasy usually DOES at least get a basic amount of the original culture and aesthetics right despite what it may change or add onto: It still has an understanding of and respects it's historical influences before it tweaks shit. Most Prehispanic stuff in fantasy is not like that, and resembles the stuff it's pulling from very little. The stuff in the thread i'm highlighting shows how you can do it right even while making deviations.

>>87332564
If anybody wants clarification on anything I posted in this thread too let me know. Something I forgot to mention there was that the Maya had siege towers: You can see one on a mural at Chichen Itza.

>>87332063
This is just overt historical art rather then being fantasy, but it's accurate, aside from that Sallet style helmet not being in widespread use yet. I also like how the Aztec soldier here with the Macuahuitl has the dotted style ichcahupilli wheras the one with the "glaive" (see >>>/k/56732872) Some researchers think the dotted style was just a basic cloth tunic/shirt though rather then being actual padded ichcahupilli gambeson.

4/?

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>>87350603
>Is that from Humankind?
yes
>Do they have unique unit graphics for generic units compared to the Mesoamerican and North American civs now?
no idea, I just found it on the Artist artstation page which the artist(who's french) classified everything he did as "Latin American" which includes a "Mississippian" culture, page for reference.
>https://www.artstation.com/artwork/b5y83o

>>87350603
Jesus, dude. Chill. Sometimes you gotta drop historical stuff for the rule of cool.
>European or Japanese fantasy usually DOES at least get a basic amount of the original culture and aesthetics right despite what it may change or add onto
So does this stuff. So what if it's jaguar pelts instead of feathers? The basics are there. Chill out, man.

>>87350603
Say, MesoAnon, have you checked the music of the Aztecs in Civilization? Apparently, there are no records of music beyond "well they used drums"

>>87320214
they're cool

>>87350603
>But if we're including Andean stuff,
OP here, I 100% want more Andean stuff(North American Indians too, I can just find art for them easier), but that is the even more obscure Andean Dwarf that I need.

I'm combining the more advanced Andean metallurgy, Dwarf Fortress style economy, and existing in mountains for a rather fitting mix. Do you have any input MesoAnon? You have been very helpful.

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>>87315526
Besides Onyx Equinox, what are some existing examples of Mesoamerican fantasy that we can use as inspiration, the only one I can think of is Ixalan from MtG. Not OP BTW.

>>87355645
Forever seething there will be no season two

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>>87350603
Got any interesting insights into the Pueblo? One of the major cultures for my setting is based on being their descendants after being forced out of their homeland and pushed north into an area similar to like, Montana.

>>87354736

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>>87355852
have some fun art in the mean time

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apparently this is in the meso folder next to a cinquedea i believe. I think they were going to be a pair of counter cursed weapons, this one for the meso side.

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>>87355852
I know a bit on the Hopi from a bit back.
little details like how the land was passed down matrilineal lines. How the men unironically sat around and wove cloth instead of fighting.
The fact they were rather pacifistic probably is why the Navajo lands completely surround theirs.
Most of the Pubelo were in decline due to the exact opposite of what you described. Tribes from up North in Montana and Canada moved south, and killed and ate many of the settled peoples. That's why you have the word "anasazi" it is Navajo for enemy.

>>87355911
yeah, that's exactly in line with what I have researched too. Basically the exact same thing is happening in my setting, but just, from south to north. The only beneficial thing going for them is they've serendipitously fallen into becoming the major trade brokers, and in recent times have started to create massive trading guilds.

>>87346816
i think i remember you. youre that autistic faggot that spams his word vomit anytime an apocalypto thread pops up at tv?

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>>87355942
Doesn't make them an ever bigger target then? You can go with them hiring merc, wich have its own perils or get good at fighting if you don't want them to be raided.

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>>87356053
Dang, he does raid every fucking board, I seen him in /k/ and /his/ and here.

>>87355771
That sucks. I heard that it’s good, but I haven’t actually seen it yet, what about it can we take for our own?

>>87355645
there is Rokka: Braves of the Six Flowers anime/LN but the anime only really just the trapping of Mesoamerica nothing else was really inspired

>>87350329
Why is he spilling his xocoatl.

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>>87315661
>>87315678
>>87315695
I got this last July, it's a full compendium of surviving mexica poetry and just like >>87339889 it contains a lot of marigold references
If anyone is interested I think it can be imported through Amazon its from the "Fractales Collection" and the editorial is "Arte y Letras"
Other books:
>The reasoning behind the myth: Mesoamerican Cosmovision by Alfredo Lopez Austin
>Prehispanic Codex by Manuel A. Hermann Lejarazu
>Popol Vuh and Chilam Balam both ancient myths and legends compilations
>Map of Mexico Tenochtitlan by Miguel Leon Portilla
As the name suggests this is a compendium of maps of the city from its original form and the changes it suffer until the 1600s
>Megalithic mexican sculptures by Eduardo Matos Moctezuma
Compilation of mexican sculptures

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>>87341836
About the famous macuahuitl, Achille Jubinal drew a two-handed version of one at the Royal Armory of Madrid in 1837 (it was destroyed by a fire in 1884).
They existed. But how they were used and how common they were it's unknown

>>87356464
/his/ makes sense, but what did /k/ do to earn these walls of pent up spaghetti?
>>87359005
>>>/r9k/

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>>87346832
>GOOD movies about Pre-Columbian America
>Apocalypto

there's barely movies covering that period let alone good ones, there's the Hernan miniseries tho

>>87359090
Some one was posting a cozy castle thread and he started to sperg about pueblos out of nowhere.

>>87359137
Herman level of unironic autism.

>>87332517
The Spanish were in a bit of a shock when the native envoys offered them a couple prepubescent girls to have their way with.

>>87359249
A pair? Dozens normally, I think the tabascan offered 20, one of them would become the Malinche/Doña Mariana.

>>87356459
yeah, its the merc route they've adapted. Also, since they are semi-nomadic now, they aren't in real danger of being wiped out. Whenever problems occur, they just pick everything up and move to a different city and set back up.

>>87315533
neat

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>>87315526
Here’s one for you. Also, how can we handle magic in such a setting besides just making it all blood magic?

>>87337972
yes

>>87350603
cont:

>>87331483
This is another pretty fantastical one that's not really "accurate" (even less so then say >>87331257 and >>87331490), but again, feels like at least the person did some research: He has Tezcatlipoca's signature yellow and black color scheme, expanding his pectoral mirror into a big chest portal is a neat twist, with it summoning an undead Jaguar tying into mirrors being underworld entrances and used for divination (which Tezcatlipoca is tied to) as well as his connections to Jaguars.

I do wish the head wasn't an Ollin glyph, though, which isn't really tied to him. Headdress is also a bit generic, and some stuff styled after actual deity regalia/ornaments would have been cool, but overall, again, this is still I think doing an okay job even if it could be even better

>>87356053
>>87356464
>>87359090
>>87359137
I don't post on /tv/ much, I'm not sure I've ever been in an Apocalypto thread there. I was in a bunch of the Black Panther 2 ones though

>Some one was posting a cozy castle thread and he started to sperg

I made two posts giving info about Mesoamerican fortifications and then stopped posting since even I acknowledged they weren't castles in a strict sense. I only posted more after other anons replied to me and expressed interest in more information and had questions. Why is that a problem?

>>87359117
>>87346832
I give my recommendations on Mesoamerican influenced media here: desuarchive.org/co/thread/119651972/#119695404 note this doesn't mention Onyx Equinox, which the thread itself was about, and is IMO the best non-indie handling of the topic

Hernan sucks, the aerial shots of Tenochtitlan aside

>>87323640
>>87323713
>>87328470
>>87332991
Unironically your best bet is to ask for input on Nahuatl subreddits or discord servers, like /r/Nahuatl or discord.com/invite/9JEJduWWKk

>dictionary
https://nahuatl.wired-humanities.org/ is the most academic-vetted one I know of bu I don't speak Nahuatl so I can't make promises

5/?

>>87366206
of course youre from pleddit. that self shilling shouldve been a dead giveaway. how about you meet up with leaffag and herman, maybe then your spaghetti walls will get some of those internet points?

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>>87315526
If we're doing a fantasy Mesoamerica, would you prefer having a Conquistador equivalent or not? And if so, would you prefer them as humans or some other race, like how Ixalan made them vampires?

>>87367038
I don't have any but that's mostly because I don't really have an analog for them in Not!Europe as the Gnoman empire managed to rebuild itself and is in full reconquer mode. Maybe they can be it after a while, not sure.

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>>87366206
cont:

>>87335131
>>87335272
These are all 1:1 accurate to specific Maya burials and murals. The latter one here is by Zotzcomic/Kamazotz/Daniel parada, he does a ton of infographs and resources on Mesoamerican fashion

if people want more artist suggestions btw, let me know, though some can be seen in the desuarchive link in >>87366206

>>87366789
Anon, the point of the "unironically" in the line is "I know this sounds dumb, but this is the best option"
>>87332517
>>87332696
>>87332779
Firstly, ese weren't "Tribes": Large monuments, aquaducts, rulership, class systems, etc go back in Mesoamerica almost 3000 years before Spanish contact, see pic. The region had city-states, kingdoms, and empires, not "tribes" (obviously there were more rural areas, but you wouldn't call some rural medeival european halmet a "tribe", same ideas, unless you're looking at the fringes of what's considered Mesoamerica like the Chichimeca or the Lenca

Anyways, re: Women,, it depends. That Maya, Mixtec, and Zapotec queens could hold equal power to kings is pretty well established, some even held formal military titles higher then their husbands (such as Queen Kabel , who came from the Kan dyansty/kingdom headed by Calakmul, one of the two most powerful Classic Maya dyanisties/cities, and was placed onto the throne/given a political marriage the king oftheir subject Wak dynasty) or are depicted in codices fighting (Like Queen Six Monkey, a prominent Mixtec queen was the head of one of 3 major Zapotec/mixtec kingdoms in Oaxaca, and regent of another via political marriages) but obviously we can't say for sure if they actually participated in battle

That's also not necessarily reflective of how non-queens would have lived, but the specific info we have of women in Maya or Zapotec society isn't a topic I know much about. That info is out there, though, especially if you also draw on colonial period and more modern ethnographic work since there are still a lot of communities

6/?

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>>87350603
>>87347946
>>87355029
Here's another pic of mossa's andean-roman OC

>>87367428
>>87332517
>>87332696
>>87332779
cont:

For the Aztec, the traditional view has been that their queens didn't hold formal titles as rulers like kings did, or at least for the Mexica. In general the Mecia get characterized a lot as prude traditionalists when it comes to things like gender expectations and roles and sexuality, and we know they were also more classiest then some other Nahua cities/groups. But how much of the gender prudishness stuff is reality vs the Spanish influence over things (and colional period Aztec writers trying to make themselves look better TO the Spanish) is debated and some recent work has argued Mexica queens did actually count as formal Tlatoani. I'm a little skeptical of this but I'm not up to speed on the arguements for it.

In any case, in this traditional view of Mexica society, it's definitely patriarchal, but women still could hold some minor political, priestly, and medical offices, just not the highest ones, and while "womanly" things like domestic life and weaving etc didn't lead to AS much social power as say military success with stuff men did, the "ideal" was still that men and women and their social spheres were equally important complimentary opposites, and within those spheres women could hold a considerable amount of influence.

Some have even argued wives/mothers would have been the breadwinners since most of a average family's income came from producing and selling textiles. Women also could own property, and while mexica royal succession practices are complex and it's own topic, material lineages and princesses could still pass down succession rights in contexts it wouldn't in Europe (which becomes a point of contention in the early colonial period: Spain would grant local kings, nobles, etc formal titles within Spanish nobility, but only it fit Spanish successon/land claims)

7/?

>>87338305
sexy

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>>87315526

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>>87368767

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>>87368780

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>>87368786

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>>87368794

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>>87368808

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>>87368816

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>>87368819
and last one. i just got a bunch by searching "inca OR aztec OR maya OR mesoamerican" on some /tg/-esque subreddits

Any recommended reading/watching primer for Mesoamerican languages? The names sounds like an unintelligible jumble of letters to me and I'd like to get some perspective to poke my brain in the right direction maybe.
(I have linguistic background but zero knowledge about that region's languages, if that helps)

>>87368092
Bro go away

>>87371228
no u

>>87328509
cute

>>87368841
more like coatle-cute

>>87346816
Move to /his/ if you care so much. The OP literally said they just needed content. Do you even play tabletop RPGs?

>>87350603
>European or Japanese fantasy usually DOES at least get a basic amount of the original culture and aesthetics right despite what it may change or add onto: It still has an understanding of and respects it's historical influences before it tweaks shit.
But thats blatantly false. You obviously specialize in pre-hispanic cultures so you may not notice the MASSIVE cultural errors and disrespect medieval european cultures have in mainstream media. But its fine because the more important part is telling an interesting story.

>>87373518
Do you?

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>>87367038
I was thinking of having less Conquistadors, and more ghosts from the "Last-World". A big civilization built up, and in the tradition of the Mesoamerican Myth they were flooded. They spirits of these drowned sometimes get angry and walk among the living.
It's pathfinder e1, and pathfinder happens to have stats for WW1 soldiers. And WW1 Tanks. I very much plan to use these both with ghost slapped over.
Also I got an excuse to enthuse over troglofauna.

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>>87367038
I feel its worth having in your setting if you are doing the whole history bent. It might be cheap, but its also an effective way to expand the dynamics in play.

In my setting, the one with the displaced pueblo above, after a cataclysmic event the elves basically have a cultural epiphany, and become crusaders with the visual style conquistadors. They fully believe they are doing gods will, and their actions are for the betterment of everyone. So yeah, the poor pueblo people kind of got lucky the elves are a bigger threat, and because they are willing to trade with the elves and everyone else, have some security.

Also, Ixalan has fantastic art for the vampires.

>>87377682
>Also, Ixalan has fantastic art for the vampires.
I've been looking at the cards, and I agree. But the actual Mesoamerican ones seem rather limited and lacking. Unless the listing I was looking at is just missing them. Lots of Dinos though.

>>87378407
i think the merfolk are closer to the mesoamerican stuff than the humans and dinos.

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>>87315526
Besides region-appropriate beastfolk like picture related, or dire versions of the same kinds of creatures what are some cool ideas for monsters and enemies in a Mesoamerican-based setting? Hard mode, no Dinosaurs.

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>>87379147
axolotl dragon. Or Axocoatl.
Regular megafauna, terror birds and saber tooth cats.
Bird Monsters (looking at you Seven Macaw).
Vampire Baty monsters.
Trees that cast enchantment spell-like abilities.
Stone Golems with Olmec heads.
Armadillo Crocodiles.
Sloth Everything.
Chupacabra.
That crying drowny lady.
Things beyond mixing animals into things is difficult due to the nature of the translation.

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>>87379289
>Things beyond mixing animals into things is difficult due to the nature of the translation.
What do you mean by that exactly?

>>87379147
See picture related.

>>87379147
Cipactli, every joint has another mouth, its body mande the earth and requires blood to prevent it from devouring those who walk the earth. also tzitzemime

>>87337972
no

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>>87385265
Why not? Are you allergic to it or something?

>>87337972
maybe

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>>87359080
>>87341836
There's actually a photo of that weapon that survived but it took forever to find because the museum didn't know what it was and put it with samurai armor.

>>87320214
Why not?

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>>87315526
Have a Quetzalcoatl. BTW, does anyone have any suggestions for how we can do deities in a Mesoamerica setting besides just copying picture related and other real life gods from the real-life region?

>>87315526
Look up Mormon art.

A lot of it is cool for RPG stuff.

>>87388843
With how weeb Mexico is, I'm surprised a Samurai with Macahuitl hasn't been made yet.

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>>87392473
What I did was create a synthesis between American Indian myths and Mesoamerican gods by way of their associated animals.
>huitzilopochtli->Sun Eagle (the eagle eating snake was a symbol)
>Tezcatlipoca-> Mirror Bear (he is associated with the Constellation Ursa Major, same as the Great Bear in Sioux myth).
> Creator deity is a mix of the Mayan Kok, Inca Viracocha, Pan-Andean god-with-stick, and Navajo Turtle.
>Incan Moon Goddess-> Moon Rabbit with way too much El-ahrairah added.
>xolotl -> Dog who is psychomp and also syphilis ridden.
>Raven steals souls from Dog to be undead and get's burned for it.
>Coyote is a lying backstabbing chaotic evil god of awful people.
>Popol Vuh's Seven Macaw
>Made a pun on Anasazi and Anasasi to create a spider goddess. She is just Weaver from World of Darkness.
I could do a whole text dump on details if you wanted. I'm decently proud of it. The important detail to recall is that you are making a pantheon that has mechanical effects on your clerics and having open options for your clerics.

Okay but how did the Mesoamericans wage war. I recall reading they did the Achaemenid thing of archers behind a wall of spearmen.
But mostly I just see a mob.

>>87392765
Where did you read this? I’d like to see the sauce please.

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>>87392756
Sure please do. What you have so far sounds petty based and I'd love to hear more about it.

>>87347802
same

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>>87395584
>Grand mother Coyote/ Xmucane: Chaotic Good. long before the birth of the world, mother coyote was married to father coyote. Together they made a world together. The stones, water, and trees were all beautiful. They gave birth to gods in turn. The men that filled the world however… Father Coyote and his children had filled their hearts with too much of his wickedness, too much of his sin. For their many wrongs and refusal to listen to her, Grandmother coyote flooded the world that was.
>Domains:Destruction, community, darkness, good, healing, Chaos, ruin
>Holy Weapon:Longbow
>She is worshiped by midwives, mothers, and matrons. She is invoked by those who strike against evil no matter the consequences or circumstances. She rests in dark blackness of the night sky. Her followers cannot tolerate the followers of Father Coyote to live.

>Grand Father Turtle/ Kok: (lawful good) After the-world-that-was flooded, Grand Mother Coyote was alone above the ruins, skies dark as even the sun was drowned under the waters. One day, a turtle floated up and saw Coyote crying. To end her sorrow, turtle dove deep below the waters. He braved the dangers of the drowned world, and found the land again. Carrying the entire weight of the world upon his ancient shell, he pulled the land up above the flood waters. He resewed the greenery that too had drowned, and coyote was overjoyed to see it again. The two married and bore twins. Huitzi-Inti and Quetzkulan. Together the grand parents remade the world of Xamumatz.
>Domains:Earth, healing, law, plant, protection, good
>Holy Weapon: Earth Breaker
>He is worshiped by farmers, earth-movers, patriarchs. He is invoked for planting and harvests. He is protective of his many grandchildren. Followers of Kok must bear their burdens, no matter how painful. They are allowed to find easier ways to accomplish the end goal, but the end goal must be completed, not left undone.

post 1/9ish

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>>87396495
>Father Coyote : (chaotic Evil)Father Coyote is a trickster. When he filled a world with men, they were tricksters all. No man could trust another, the powerful were the most lying and deceitful. So awful and corrupt their lives Grandmother drowned them. Now Father has a spiteful hatred to his old wife. He seeks to subvert the world above.
>Domains: Trickery, chaos, evil, magic, death(murder)
>Holy Weapon: Longbow
>He is worshiped by thieves, liars, assassins, dark magicians. He is not invoked in good company. In less good company he is invoked to bless conspiracy. His followers cannot suffer worshipers of Grandmother Coyote.

>Red Macaw: (neutral evil)The prideful one. Red Macaw is encrusted with gems, gold, jade, all that glimmers and is precious. He seeks to have the entire world gaze upon him. In the World-That-Was Red Macaw outshone the sun and moon, the men lived their lives to his rhythm, not day and night. He lead his followers to pride and degeneracy, caring more for pleasure and being seen than actually doing. When his eye was lost in battle with Eagle, it floated to the surface forming the island of zali-ixtli on lake Teccnomatz, capital of the Alftec hegemony.
>Domain: Evil, charm, glory, animals
>Holy weapon: Blowgun
>The followers are either too overwhelmingly vain or overwhelmingly debauched. The narcissist and the addict. He is almost never mentioned in polite company, as his worship is illegal in most places where law can exist. At most he might be called out before a drink or run to a brothel. His followers can never admit any mistake as their fault. (they have a hatred for Eagle, but there are far too many and fighting all of them would just be too much work)
post 2/9ish

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>>87396535
>Huitzi-Inti/Eagle: (Lawful Neutral)Son of Coyote and Turtle, Twin of the Feathered Serpent. He was born into a world of darkness. The sun was still beneath the waters, and now within the underworld. In order to guide his way through the blackness, he tied the leaves of tobacco into a torch. The smoke burned white, and collected into a white bird, the raven.
>Eagle dove deeper into the caverns, where he then found the den of Red Macaw. Eagle snuck up to red Macaw as he dazed off on his drugs. He fired a blowgun at Red Macaw’s mouth, striking one of his jeweled teeth. Red Macaw was awakened terrible pain, and fled into deeper caverns. From the center of the cage, Eagle stole the sun. From the depth of the underworld, Eagle could not find his way back. By luck the smoky white raven new the way to escape the underworld. Up 8 underworlds, Eagle was led past plague and death. Come the last, Red Macaw returned. Red Macaw stole the blowgun from Eagle’s claws and dove to take back the light. Raven slipped way with the sun. Raven however, was not as strong as Eagle, and Raven’s feathers were burnt black. To fight Red Macaw, he formed a macuahuitl from his own blood. In the low caverns Red Macaw and Eagle fought beak and claw and weapon. Red Macaw prepared to fire back one of Huitzi0Inti’s darts, but Eagle threw his blood weapon at Macaw’s eyes. By the time Red Macaw could see again, Eagle had already carried the sun back into the sky. Ever onwards Red Macaw seeks to strike Eagle from the sky, sending the decadent dead to fight. Ever onwards Huitzi-Inti needs blood to forge weapons, and hearts of soldiers to fight against Macaw.
>Domains:Sun, fire, war, , glory, law, strength.
>Holy Weapon: macuahuitl

>>87355911
>Hopi
>pacifistic
does not compute. Also anasazi is “not out ancestors,” only figuratively means enemies

>>87331257
cool

>>87393771
I think it was an Osprey book.

>>87396581
This is pretty based anon. Can't wait for the rest of it!

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>>87396581
>Moon Rabbit: True neutral. When the jeweled tooth of Red Macaw was shot out, it was flung across the land of the dead. The souls from the World-that-was coveted it, so surrounded by souls, the gem came to life and hopped right out in the form of a rabbit. So brightly this white rabbit shone, that the ground burst into flames. These are the deserts. Wandering the desert, the white rabbit fell in love with Eagle and he carried her up to the sky. Eagle and rabbit had many children, they were called the dwarves. So many were the dwarves that the jungles below them were cut thin, and every mountain top was covered in dwarves. Mirror Bear saw the oncoming disaster and told rabbit to stop having so many children. Rabbit ignored the warning, and for that Mirror Bear had gathered his wrath. The Bear of Mirrors cursed Rabbit with a mercurial madness. Her mood and personality changed in a cycle every 28 nights. With rabbit distracted, Mirror Bear sewed together the Peccaries and elves, creating the orcs. To orcs, Mirror Bear gave the cunning, the fierceness, the desire to hunt, slay and eat the children of Rabbit. So they went away from Mirror Bear full of nothing but hunger to kill the Rabbit’s brood.
>Domains:Darkness(moon), community, nobility, charm(love),void
>Holy Weapon: Halberd
>The dwarves most readily worship Rabbit. Outside the mountains she is worshiped by young women, lovers, young mothers, and shell gatherers. She is invoked at marriages, and at festivities afterwards. She holds no law to her followers as her mood greatly shifts. When the moon is full, she is NG, When the moon is gibbous, she is lawful neutral, when crescent she is chaotic neutral, at New Moon, she is neutral evil.

post 4/9ish

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>real life city 10x more insane and fantastical then 99% of fantasy settings

why are they so underused bros

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>>87400912
>Bear of Mirrors: CN: When the eagle was diving into the underworld and the world was dark, Father Coyote snuck out from the waters below. Seeing Mother Coyote in the sky, he fired arrows at her. Noticing the attack, she blindly fired back. By the time all the arrows flew, the arrows were scattered across the sky. All the points of the arrowheads caused the sky to fall. This fallen chunk of the sky was in the shape of a bear, and it animated in the shimmering dark obsidian of the sky with a thundering roar.
>When the dwarves were to many and mighty, he created the orcs to curb them.
>Long ago, Quetzkulan walked in the form of a golden haired woman. She lead the elves and Coatl together to make the greatest and grandest of empires. From the Cahkai river in the north to the Scythian river in the south, the Toelfs ruled. Mirror Bear was displeased at Quetzkulan, first for faux pas of walking the world like a mortal.Second was the utter indifference the Dragons and Elves had for the lives of their human/orc slaves. What truly angered Mirror Bear was Quetzkulan’s outlawing of human sacrifice. Mirror Bear plotted to humble another empire. A slave served Quetzkulan a mixture stolen from deep in Red Macaw’s den. While she was inebriated, Mirror Bear used his powerful magic to take control of Quetzkulan’s avatar. When she came to her senses, her jade city was painted black with blood.
>Domains: Magic, liberation, madness, air,chaos
>Holy Weapon: hand ax
>Mirror Bear is the patron of slaves, he seeks their protection regardless of their worship (he will protect the worshiping slaves far faster however). He is also worshiped by warriors who are not soldiers, the kind who raid cities for the loot not duty. He is invoked by slave owners who wish to avoid his wrath and magic users. The Alftecs offer him great amounts of sacrifice in order to avoid the fate of the Toelfs.
Followers of Mirror Bear cannot tolerate cruelty to slaves.

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>>87404048
>Quetzkulan/ The Feathered Serpent: Neutral Good. Quetzkulan is the twin sister of Huinzi-inti. After the ventures of Coyote and Red Macaw, the waters between the world that is and the world that was needed guarding. Quetzkulan rode on the wet rains to each portal. At each portal she laid an egg, and there hatched the Coatl, the dragons. The Coatl in turn laid their own eggs at their own. So many and great were her children, that one day she walked down to Xamumatz in the form of a blonde elven woman. She united the elves and the dragons in one nation, the Toelfs. She ruled as benevolent God Empress, forbidding the death rites prior states so favored. Her rule reached from the waters of the Cahkai river to the tributaries of the Scthian. Her capital was a shining masterwork of solid jade, the fields bore bounties born of perfect rains,and the libraries filled with codexes and books so many even a Dragon’s life was too short . All was well, until she sipped one drink she could never notice. Then the madness consumed her, the atrocities a Goddess can reap against a city cannot be spoken. So mournful her tears that the skies rained black, melting the empire away. She walked into the sea, returning to her divine form. To this day a rare few elves are born with hair of gold.
>Domains: water, scalykind, weather, travel, knowledge, good.
>Holy Weapon: Lance
>The feathered Serpent is worshiped most obviously by the Coatl, the scalykind. Scribes and the wise worship the wisdom she provides, and messengers for her protection. She is invoked for rain and safe sailings. Followers of the Feathered Serpent simply cannot offer sentient beings in sacrifice.

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>>87315526
Gods have already been mentioned, but what about the priests and priestesses? What should we know about Mesoamerican religions besides that they believed that the gods needed blood to be sustained and keep the world running?

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>>87404183
>Anaxichi/The Spider: Lawful Evil, even among the mysterious brood of Father Coyote, Spider is particularly mysterious. She is associated with structure to the great works of man. Stories themselves never speak of her deeds, but story tellers whisper what she might have been behind.
>Domains: Rune, magic, artifice, vermin, law evil
>Holy weapon: Net
>The only who might publicly worship Spider are architects, and those who worship her are only tolerated when building great temples to more respectable gods. Weavers do so silently, in their work. The commands of Anaxchi are personal and specific in nature, as each follower is but a string in the cloth.

Gods of Death
In Xamumatz, there are 3 deities associated with Death, of 3 different associations. The underworld, the Psychopomp, and death’s cheat.

>Lady of Death:Lawful neutral. The first is the one who is not really a deity. The lady of death is simply the first voice of the Land of the Dead. In the land of the dead, the dead organize themselves in their depths, and when the dead must speak to the living, it is she who speaks. They are a bureaucracy, and believe all things have a time and place for their death. Things are ill boding when wrong.
>Domains: Death, Repose, Law
>Holy weapon: Sythe
>The closest thing to worshipers the land of the dead has are some morticians. Even in that field raven is far more popular. She is invoked when those close to death face it head on. Followers of the land of the dead do not entertain the undead as a gross violation of the bureaucracy.
post 7/9ish

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>>87405684
>Raven: Chaotic Neutral: Raven, the one of smoke, is the cheater of the underworld. Raven has dove there and back again over and over. It is by raven that death can be cheated. The mummified Dwarven Kings owe their existence to raven.
>Domains Death, travel, chaos. Trickery, Fire(smoke)
>Weapon: Knife
>Raven is worshiped by necromancers, death dodgers, morticians, and thanatophobic. Raven is invoked when one wishes to escape death rather than face it. Followers must simply refuse to accept their own mortality.

>Anu-xis: Neutral Evil. The Dog. When death does catch one, they must be led to the depths of the true underworld. To make the journey to the 9th underworld a guide is needed. Anu-xis, guides those souls. He is impartial, he simply leads them. But once was he ever crossed in a particular manner was the first King of the Amazons. For his displeasure he afflicted that region with a curse of Syphilis, eventually resulting the Scythian region’s matriarchy. He also takes care of the unknowable horrors who live in the underworlds, as the loyal god he is, he sees no difference.
>Domains: evil, death, animals
>Weapon: sickle
>Anu-xis is often worshiped by the monstrous, the gobbles in particular venerate him. He is invoked to avoid the meeting of his plague and his monsters, and for safe passage of the dead. The followers of Anu-xis must seek to bring lingering spirits to rest within the underworld as best they can. They also tend to be cool with cursing syphilis on people.

Last post because I managed to squeeze them all in.
I just hope one of my players actually picks cleric or something, or i'll be peeved on all that domain stuff I worked in. Any of the list y'all think would be cool to play Clerics of?

>>87375779
cute

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>>87315526
What are some interesting things that we can do with magic in a Mesoamerica setting, besides the obvious answer of blood magic? Like, would they have the standard four elements (Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth) for a mage to wield, or some other variation?

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>>87409208
Smoke and noise. A common method to cause disruption were noisy whistle and smoke. These were associated with Tezcatlipoca, "Smoking Mirror" who represented the Chaos of battle among other things. Hallucinogenic plants also.
>>87405441
I can say the priests(who were called Nahautls) often also liked making poetry.

sadasd

>>87315695
>hyper-intracate art for the entire image
>but photoshopped mat texture

>>87355645
>>87355771
shill me on it

>>87315678
yiff in hell furfag

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>>87411188
That's cool, what else do you know about that? Also, maybe Smoke could be a sub-element of Darkness? What about spirit magics, or cool stuff that we can do with blood magic besides the obvious?

They did? Do you know anything else?

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>>87419581

>>87315526
>I really need more Aztec Elves.
This. I want to rape them.

>>87368819
cute

>>87419377
Adorable. Is there any more art of them? And what's their whole deal exactly?

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>>87355029
Not him, but here's what I have.

https://imgur.com/a/9gLt3za

And this is the South American bestiary I did once:

https://pastebin.com/zYksc3gf

Remember. Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not be lazy. That is the whole of the law.

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>>87424755
Thank you for the bestiary. I shall now lazily steal this and call it my own.

>>87329974
If you are still here name dude I'd like your input.

So if I wanted to name someone Scale Shirt it would be Mixincayotlcotomitl?
Which is just the words for Fish Scale and Shirt shoved together. At least according to the site that you provided.
I've looked up Aztec Place names and it seems like they remove the "tl" from words to make them, should I do the same for people names? So instead it would be Mixicayocotomitl?

>>87405726
This is pretty based anon. Hope that someone picks cleric soon.

>>87424755
that bestiary will be a great reference for these names, thank you! also good image collection

>>87409208
>blood magic
All magic is blood magic, you sacrifice a little bit of your energy to power a spell. The Aztecs are just more honest about the source of their magic.

bump

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this is your dragon

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>>87426238
I would say that is way too many syllables. You can cut the Mixin and ichcatl. Recall that this will still have to be said. The name you describe is is roughly "Fish Scale Cotton Shirt".
I would mangle the first one into Cayotl and use huīpīlli. Cayotlhuipilli or something. Recall that the end goal is to make sure they sound right, not be perfect one-to one. No one will notice unless you are playing in Mexico, and an attempt was made in good faith. If the name is too long then you end up using a nickname, defeating the point of the name in the first place.
>>87431535
The spawn of the feathered serpent have many faces yes.

I think removing the tl is also a good idea.
Tlacaelel is made from the words tlacatl & ellelli.
Acamapichtli is from acatl & mapichtli.

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>>87428059
Okay, that's a neat idea. What else can we do with it? Oh, and what do you think about them being big on necromancy?

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Sorry anons got busy

Also random pic: Codex Black is a very well researched Mesoamerican historical-fantasy comic

>>87368092
>>87332517
>>87332696
>>87332779
Cont:

Oh, also, There's some accounts where women are said or are depicted as combatants but it's not a regular thing, IIRC usually presented as an act of desperation by the defensive population during an invasion.

>>87339889
Well, if you have questions about social or political stuff or religion like you said, feel free to ask. (Nosuku-K's art like what you posted is also very well done and researched, I reccomend her stuff)

Have you seen my art/book drive yet/before?

>>87339971
>>87340180
>>87340917
>>87347885
See >>87334616 re: the armor types (tho there were even more obscure ones too). The full body wasuits were made of thick cloth and then covered in feather mosiac and was also worn over gambeson tunics/vests. Keep in mind also the Aztrec were in Central Mexico's valleys and plateaus, the jungle was hundreds of kilometers away in most directions. It's not like they never conquered tropical, jungle heavy areas, but it's not like that was all over the place.

Re: Knights vs Warriors for the Eagles, Jaguars, etc, I prefer the term "Knight", because "warrior" sounds generic and these were special military orders outside of the normal rank system and with specific prestigious entry requirements, same with the Otonin and Shorn One order.

>>87330136
I've seen it claimed that the idea that ichcahuipilli was soaked in brine and dried to harden it might be a mistranslation. We don't know for sure, though. Also, regarding weapons, having obsidian and wooden weapons really isn't a big disadvantage when your enemies don't have metal armor: Obsidian is absurdly sharp, sharper then even modern steel scapels get, so it's not gonna be that less effective against flesh, gambeson, etc then steel is, maybe even more at least for the first few swings. The problem is durability.


8/?

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Here's your Warlock.

>>87433715
What do YOU think about them being big on necromancy? What else can YOU do with that idea?

>>87433715
>big on necromancy
Boo! Boo!
Blood magic is enough, no need to make them stereotypically evil.

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>>87335349
This guy is so d&d, he's got burburs on his helmet.

>>87326340
>people believe this shitt

>>87437013
What is this? Some kind of Pokémon knockoff?

>>87437507
The Inca should be the ones with necromancy given what they did with their emperors. Even then that's less evil and more mummies having tea parties.

>>87339415
>>87438764
its just an odd thought that came across with the dino association, i'd hope no one would take these things as real.

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Might as well ask some of this, but shigeru mizuki
has this as a south american myth, but can't find much other than a macaw woman story, and can't cross reference it cause the site that has this image with a detailed description is in japanese and google doesn't want to translate the pages. any help appreciated

>>87338305
redpill me on this design

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>>87443832
I think that is the rival half-sister of huitzilopochtli. Coyolxāuhqui She got her head cut off by him.Most of her got cut up. Her association is snakes, That's her on the flag of Mexico.

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>>87437013
Okay, can you give us more details here please?

>>87437507
I was thinking more in the calling up and communicating with spirits kind of necromancy. I also think that inherently evil necromancy is overdone just a tad.

>>87441027
Right, they made mummies. What other cool things can we do with the Incas in a fantasy setting like this?

>>87444155
>She got her head cut off by him.
Why would he cut off his sister’s head? That seems mean even by god standards.

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>>87436107
cont:

>>87326606
You confuse me anon, you seem to sort of know what you're talking about in other posts but then this one has so much dumb bullshit

>for the stone age weaponry

The Mesoamericans had some copper and bronze weapons and armor, though admittedly most copper/bronze was for ceremonial goods.

Even that aside, "Stone Age" is a dumb label: Technology and social complexity is not a linear video game tech tree:The material used in tools as a proxy for complexity: The Mesoamericans mostly used stone tools yet had gigantic cities and complex aqueduct networks on par with Classical antiquity and the Medieval world, had cutting edge medical and botanical sciences, and were at least comparable to eurasian bronze age civilizations in most other regards. On the flip sides, there were some tribes in Africa that still lived in simple villages yet developed steel without ever touching Bronze

Even if we're just looking at weapons, Mesoamerican military gear was way more developed then Stone age/neolithic examples from Europe: In Mesoamerica you had a huge variety of very intentionally engineered weapons ranging from (effectively) swords, glaives, spears, halbreds, simple clubs, ball, flanged, and morning star spiked mace, and gambeson, full body warsuits, tunics, shields, etc

These weren't random sticks, sinew, and rocks, you had finely carved weapons with precious metal and stone inlays/mosaics, and as you can see in >>87334616 shields and warsuits were insane works of craftsmanship and art with wooden or woven reed backing, Gabonese padding, and fine jewerly/metalwork ornaments and feather mosiacs with tens of thousands of feathers individually placed to make different designs and images.

Pic related shows the same feather mosiac technique used on shields, warsuits, etc applied to 2d art. Saying that this level of craftmenship is "stone age" is absolutely moronic

9/?

>>87331265
cool

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>>87447370
She was being mean to their mother. The short version is their mother debased herself with some hummingbird feathers. Then Huitzilpopchtli was born. His elder half siblings, (eldest sister and entire army of brothers) were shamed their mum got knocked up by molted feathers and attacked. It was self-defense, she was attacking her own mother and new born half-brother.
>>87447399
I think he is just trying to curb enthusiasm on the weapons purely out of flaws of the material, not craftmenship. However well made they are, it is still well made stone being measured up against gun and steel. Similar to the whole weeb about the 1000 fold katana thing.

>>87354736
based

>>87436107
Looks pretty cool, thanks. Any other media like this that hasn't already been mentioned here?

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>>87447399
>>87326606
cont:

>and glorified slave raids that passed as warfare the region was using

What? The Aztec didn't really do slave raids. Maya city-states did to some extent (but they also had more total warfare), but the Aztec not so much, Aztec warfare and expansion was all about getting states to submit into becoming tax paying subjects.

The actual warfare was also organized with armies that fought in formation, had barracks and armories, and formal military structure with different ranks, elite orders, officer and command titles, etc. It was absolutely comparable to organized warfare in Classical anitquity and the like, not random warbands sacking whatever. If you mean flower wars, see: https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/13893450/#13897468

Read Hassig's Aztec Warfare.

>surviving accounts detail the spanish wading through aztecs like doom guy hopped up on catholicism and goldlust and could only be brought down when they were too tired to stab with their half pound swords or had malaria

I'm admittedly not intimately familiar with conquest accounts since I'm way more interested in Prehispanic history and society then the conquest, but that's not really my assessment from what I've read? Obviously Cortes, Bernal Diaz, etc describe their and the actions of other captains in detail as being pivotal and successful as if they made or break their success; but they also wank off various specific Aztec (I'm including Tlaxcalteca and other Nahuas as "Aztec" here, not just the Mexica) soldiers as being nigh supermen who tossed around spainards like toys and took out dozens of men with themselves. There was romanticism of people on both sides.

Certainly though, if we take the numbers given in accounts at any sort of face value, even with some skepticism, it is true though that many, maybe dozens of mesoamerican soldiers were taken out for every Conquistador that was.


10/?

>>87316177
>>87317544
nice

>>87456536
Hey, do you have any ideas on how fantasy Mesoamericans could better have resisted the conquistadors? I mean, obviously healing magic would have helped with disease, keeping their numbers up, but what else can we do with that?

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>>87457936
Magical Bards.
The war instruments they played terrified the Spaniards. They had never heard such strange and awful sounds. The 'twisted shells' were effective psychological tools.
But beyond that, anything you give to the Mesoamericans to fight the Spanish is just going to turn around and help the Spanish. Tlaxcaltecs would just use it as part of the war.
The main difference is that you would probably have even more Tlaxcaltec influence in the resulting alliance.

>>87456536
>>87326606
cont:

>the aztecs were reliant on sneak attacks during truces

This very wrong.. Diplomatic norms were a gigantic deal to the Aztec and other Mesoamericans. Kings literally visited enemy cities they were at war with for religious festivals where their own soldiers were being sacrificed. This isn't to say that assassination and backstabbing during truces never happened, but it wasn't common, if not outright rare. This is something they shit on the Conquistadors for doing a lot

Now, Mexica of Tenochtitlan WERE fond of sending in disguised merchants or tax agents as spies and to act provocative to get arrested to then act as an justification to invade a place due to having imprisoned Mexica officials, but that itself shows how there were guidelines for when declaring war was or wasn't acceptable. There's even accounts from Duran's history where Mexica officials and royal heirs personally visit the enemy rulers to anoint them with pitch (which was used to mark the faces of the dead) and a gift of arrows as a formal declaration of war

>and maintaining control through behavior reminiscent of the assyrians on a bad day. it couldve been the chinese, moslems, or even the romans and the tribes wouldve still thrown in behind them

Firstly, see >>87367428 re: tribes, and see >>87346816 and >>87350329 , especially the pastebin regarding why local city-states and kingdoms (not tribes) worked with the Spanish.:

The Aztec being widely hated and cruel and oppressive to the places they conquered is a meme: When the Mexica conquered a place, rulers, laws, and customs were generally left in place (no draft animals meant directly managing far off provinces was generally not realistic), infrastructure generally wasn't razed aside from major temples, and took intial spoils of slaves and goods and then they got left alone to self manages long as they coughed up economic goods as taxes annually. They weren't regularly dragging people off or anything

11/?

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>>87458492
>>87326606
cont:

You are correct that there was a systemic aspect of their political system that meant subject states would try to opportunistically secede or rebel or conspire against their capitals, but that's a result of it being hands off and subjects retaining their own identity and ambitions, not because the Mexica were uniquely onerous: Classical Maya dyanisties, the Zapotec capital of Monte Alban, the Purepecha Empire, etc were all more hands on with subject states and places they conquered then the Mexica, at least in terms of direct management (the Mexica still did indirect political and economic pressuring to cement influence)

>didnt fuck up the tlaxcalans
But it did? Other states were impacted too, the Purepecha Emperor died from smallpox so when Conquistadors and allied Aztec, Tlaxcalteca, etc forces arrived, the Purepecha Empire was in the middle of a war of succession because of people launching coup attempts and the heirs not being in control

>but never sought to conquer the region once the aztecs were done
because as I explain in the pastebin, the whole model behind states working with Cortes was that, as a subject or otherwise a state in a less prestigious position, in that political model, it's a relatively low-cost/risk maneuver to offer yourself as a subject or an ally to another state (since as a subject you got left alone anyways), where you help them take out your collective captial or their political rivals, and then you're in a position of higher standing in the new kingdom you helped prop up: The entire point is to aid some other state that's doing most of the work and piggyback off their success without giving up effective independence

>>87334616
I helped make this collage. There's some other more obscure armor types beyond this too (EX: is pic a ichcahuilli xicolli, ehuatl, or something else?, and a lot of other specific tlahuiztli, ehuatl, shield, and banner color and pattern variations then what's shown here too.

12/?

>>87458050
>But beyond that, anything you give to the Mesoamericans to fight the Spanish is just going to turn around and help the Spanish.
What about contracts with gods and spirits? I can’t imagine that that’ll fly with those beings.

>>87331247
lol talk about wish fulfillment

>>87356464

Why did they practice so many human sacrifices?

>>87456536
>The Aztec didn't really do slave raids
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Aztec_Empire
lol

>>87460795
That doesn't prove what you think it does.

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>>87459120
>What about contracts with gods and spirits? I can’t imagine that that’ll fly with those beings.
Haven't you read the manga. YHWH has a much higher power level. Some say it is so high that not even he can count it.

>>87460795
>anon dropping a wikipedia link to a guy with weaponized autism
you brought piss to a shit fight

>>87458878
Informative as always, Mesoanon.

>>87460775
by “so many” you mean “a tenth as many people as were publicly killed in any European state of the same time”?

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>>87315526
Hey, does anyone have any art or ideas for how we can use Mesoamerican elements in urban/modern fantasy settings? The only example I know of is Shadowrun of all games (see picture related).

What about Mesoamerican-themed science fantasy, or even straight-up science fiction? Anyone have anything there please?

>>87458050
>The war instruments they played terrified the Spaniards. They had never heard such strange and awful sounds.
What exactly did they sound like? Got a recording?

>>87367428
>tl;dr doesn't reference Moroni or the Lamenites
Repent.

>>87457936
Blood Magic.

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>>87315526
Do the Incas count for this? If they do, since we haven't talked about them much, what are some cool facts about them and/or some neat images that we can use? Have an Incan goddess, for example.

What about the Olmecs, since they've come up even 'less', despite predating the Aztecs by some time, to the point that they were probably the first Mesoamerican civilization?

>>87419612
Cool pic. What do these arrows do?

>>87419640
What’s her deal exactly?

>>87458878
cont:

>>87351158
Rafael's stuff is great, like Zotzcomic, OHS688, etc another artist I always recommend for accurate mesoamerican fashion

That piece is depicting 8 Deer Jaguar Claw, a gigachad Mixtec noble-turned-warlord who conquered like 100 cities in 18 years after sidestepping the oracles that controlled the Mixtec political system, massacred the entire dyansty of his rivals (including 6 monkey, re: >>87367428) and only died when the one boy he left alive ended up growing up to assassinate him.

>>87351393
Mesoamerican music is something I've wanted to dig into for a while, but yeah, we really don't have much information on it. We know some of the instruments used and there's been some studies on what sort of sounds they would have made, and you can try to examine some surviving poems or songs which would have been sung to music to try to work out the composition, but it's all very extrapolative and as somebody who doesn't into music theory or anything a lot of what sources I can find on it sort of go over my head.

If you want me to dig up some links for you, let me know, but re: poems and implications for music composition, see:
reddit.com/r/nahuatl/comments/yh5mst/what_16th_century_nahuatl_poetry_actually_looks/
reddit.com/r/nahuatl/comments/yiqeel/full_lyrics_for_the_10th_song_in_the_ballads_of/

>>87355852
>>87355911
>>87355942
>>87397860
I have some artistic reconstructions of Oasisamerican sites and know a few things tangentially, but not really a lot. Something I can say is that the idea that Mesoamerican turquoise mosiacs art used Oasisamerican turquoise has been debunked by recent research and we know it was sourced locally, which calls into question what Mesoamerican traders were getting in exchange for the macaws, rubber balls, etc they were travelling up with and selling.

Ancient Americas on Youtube has a video on the Hohokam which is neat: His videos are generally pretty well researched, tho I have issues with the Toltec one.

13/?

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This is Atl. She went to Japan to find Ayakashi Hunters and Quetzicotl ran to Japan

>>87418559
It's not that good. The plot is shallow. Main character is unironically gay.
Honestly, the only good thing about it is the visuals, paired with an underrepresented setting.