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Research the Mali Empire. It was so large as to engulf nearly two million square miles of area (for reference that is the size all of western europe). It was so wealthy due to vast gold mines that when its emperor, who was Muslim, travel to Mecca on the Hajj it crashed Europe's economy due to the sudden influx of gold.

>>84409765
Just steal ideas from places like medieval Ethiopia, Kingdom of Benin, Ajuran Empire, etc.

>>84409861
In addition there Songhai, the Ghanase, the Kanem, the Aksum, Christian Ethiopia, The Bachwezi, the various northern Caliphates, the Zimbabwe kingdom, Lunda & Luba, Akan, the Nok cultures, etc.

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>>84409765
Has anyone ever tried doing fantasy Carthage?

>>84409918
I'm assuming when OP says "Africa" he means Sub-Saharan African, specifically Negroid-type people. Carthage is way more Mediterranean based than something like Mali or Ethiopia.

>>84409861
Oh yeah, Mansa Musa, right?

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>>84409962
Yup

>>84409949
im willing to learn about any of them, desu. but sub-saharan would be appreciated. as far as the sahara itself goes, were there any significant cultures from there? i cant really find anything significant, but maybe my google-fu is just weak.

>>84409980
There was a belt of kingdoms just south of the Sahara on the grasslands that bordered the desert that monopolized Saharan trade.

>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahelian_kingdoms

>>84410002
awesome, thanks!

>>84409918
Isn't that pretty much was Umbar was in Tolkien's books?

>>84409765
Not sure how academic you want your research, but here's some professors talking about said Mali empire: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06kgggv

I based mine off the Machaka faction from Dominions 5, could try looking there

Oh boy, it's another African fantasy worldbuilding thread. I can't wait to see people pull up the same five cultural tidbits that they do in every other one of these threads.

>>84412159
Why would an anon go to a thread that he knows will make him mad? Mind-boggling to me.

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>>84412159
why yes, i do make all of my fantasy cultures pulpy, easily identifiable analogues instead of autistically trying to recreate history in a world where that history never happened, how could you tell?

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>>84409765
Black women are my fetish, I will go through any length to force them into every aspect of my games.

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>>84409765
Here we go again, those are my links for you, plus the stuff I wrote about it:

The first link is my not!Africa image folder:

https://imgur.com/a/y5BNTst

These are a sort of starter kit, focusing on overall Africa:

https://atmarpgsetting.blogspot.com/2018/08/african-fantasy-ideas-for-rpg.html

https://archive.org/details/AfricanMythologyAToZ2ndEdition2010/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/voicesofancestor00tony/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/gassireslutewest0000jabl

http://www.kamit.jp/27_mali/mal_eng.htm

>African Mythology in Context
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/african-mythology

>AFRICAN RELIGIONS: MYTHIC THEMES
https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/african-religions-mythic-themes

https://archive.org/details/mythologyofallra71gray/page/n10/mode/2up

https://abookofcreatures.com/category/sub-saharan-africa/

https://atmarpgsetting.blogspot.com/2020/08/african-bestiary-part-1-of-3.html

>>84409918
Only as a 40K homebrew chapter.

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>>84412660
From here on out, it's for anyone wanting to seek something specific or simply know more:

https://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/index.htm

>AFFINITIES OR "BUSH SOULS"
https://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/wmp/wmp06.htm

>Ritual Killings - Past and Present
>From Cultural Phenomenon
>To Political Instrument
http://www.liberiapastandpresent.org/RitualKillingsIndex.htm

https://archive.org/details/naturalistinmada00sibriala/page/158/mode/2up?q=kinoly

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/14297/14297-h/14297-h.htm

https://archive.org/details/landgodmadeinang00whit

https://archive.org/details/nurserytalestra00callgoog/page/n2/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.54426/page/n5/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/inwitchboundaf00mell/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.283446/page/n2/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/nanditheirlangua00holl/page/n6/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/inwitchboundaf00mell/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/dictionarygalla00tutsgoog/mode/2up?q=bulgu

https://archive.org/stream/WhereMenStillDream/Where%20Men%20Still%20Dream_djvu.txt

https://folkloreontherocks.com/show-notes-for-episode-3-the-grootslang

https://www.jstor.org/stable/29778508?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A014baea0679f363ad5e63316e99ebe87&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

https://www.nature.com/articles/027007b0

https://archive.org/details/kingsgodsspirits00knap_0

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=nuk5qwnHSs4C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarification#Reasons

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/dahomeys-women-warriors-88286072/

https://orias.berkeley.edu/resources-teachers/travels-ibn-battuta/journey/journey-mali-1350-1351

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>>84412680

>Fire Regimes in the Biomes of South Africa
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-69805-7_2

https://www.rejectedprincesses.com/princesses/nzinga-mbande

https://youtu.be/C3crB69ZCeM

https://youtu.be/HBq_zOzhTqw

https://www.academia.edu/19572360/The_Social_Life_of_Iron._A_cross-cultural_study_of_Technological_Symbolic_and_Social_Aspects_of_Iron_Making

https://libmma.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15324coll10/id/73345

https://libmma.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15324coll10/id/71017

https://scoutwiki.scouts.org.za/wiki/Ingonyama_-_he_is_a_lion!

https://ertribal.com/

https://www.amazon.com/African-Myths-Beliefs-World-Mythologies/dp/1448859891/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9781448859894&linkCode=qs&qid=1637673317&s=books&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.com/African-Traditional-Religion-World-Religions-ebook/dp/B007NLM75A/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9781438120478&linkCode=qs&qid=1637673319&s=books&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.com.br/Resolving-Prevailing-Christianity-Traditional-Inculturation/dp/364390116X

https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/collections/21

https://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/xft/index.htm

https://archive.org/details/culturalanthropo06kott/page/184/mode/2up?q=mpakafo

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/madagascar/surviving/legends.html

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/madagascar/surviving/legends2.html

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/pwmn_3/hd_pwmn_3.htm

https://archive.org/details/journalof345819121914east/page/n145/mode/2up

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm#Page_495

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>>84412714
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=wkmQ2WXnkJsC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=Mungo+Park+african+folklore&source=bl&ots=lcHsNHO0pl&sig=ACfU3U1PN171g6O7AJ-Pzq1ktI1MlHnF-Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixjoP-tZbpAhWQIbkGHcUMCj44ChDoATACegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=Mungo%20Park%20african%20folklore&f=false

https://archive.org/details/treasuryofafrica00cour/mode/2up

https://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/fiwa/index.htm

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/africana/

https://archive.org/details/historyanddescr01porygoog/mode/2up

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/49940009/
Information about the Sikhs, Bedouins, Pashtuns and Berbers.

https://iep.utm.edu/hunhu/

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/

https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/opinion/using-a-mummy-as-a-medicine

https://www.mythologicalafricans.com/

https://ertribal.com/index.php/addenda/throwing-throwing-knives

The link below is a tourism website, but the info about the Sahara and the people living there is solid. Noticed a couple instances of questionable historicity, nothing that would demerit the info as a whole.
https://www.temehu.com/SiteMap.htm

>>84412748
>>no.4 & no.5
Fuck Ouch!

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>>84412377
Insanely based

>>84413585
Made for shota cock

>>84410194
I always imagined them as more Arab given that it sounds like the lost city of Ubar.

Interesting stuff you have there OP, but nothing about it is very African even on a "cultural themepark" level. If I have any key advice for you I'd say lean into the mythology and folklore side of things. There are so many epics and legends and tales from across the continent it would be a waste to not mine them for inspiration.

My own people have a pretty rich mythology. We lived in rival city states kinda like ancient Greece called "Ilu" or "Ile". The south of Yoruba country is swampy forest and the north is open savanna. Like the Greeks we didn't recognize each other as one unified nation until late in our history despite speaking the same language, practicing similar customs, and worshipping the same gods. The Ooni of Ife was kinda like the Pope or Emperor of Japan.

Each Ilu had a particular political system. Some were militaristic republics, some were theocracies, most were monarchies. Tension always existed between the nobility and the royal families. See kings in Yorubaland and surrounding cultures were actually elected from a given royal clan (usually descended from the first inhabitants of the city and thus in alliance with the local nature spirits). We can see an example of this in the Ijaw legend of Ozidi where the king is voted in from one of the seven noble clans in a family rotation.

t. Yoruba

>>84415150
>See kings in Yorubaland and surrounding cultures were actually elected from a given royal clan (usually descended from the first inhabitants of the city and thus in alliance with the local nature spirits).

What would happen if the royal family from one city married a member from another city?

Also how many people were in a royal family and considered royal at a time? We're there restrictions on who could be voted for.

>>84415150
The Niger Delta cultures were really cutthroat, weren't they.

>>84415276
>What would happen if the royal family from one city married a member from another city?

Typically, the family of the bride would net the most gain. Yoruba culture is patrilineal. And thus becoming the sons and father-in-laws of the king of say-Owo or Ibadan meant you could call on them for backup in a fight or stronger legitimacy. Every great Oba claimed descent from the demigod Oduduwa.

It could be a tightrope walk.

>This candidate is related to the Alaafin of Oyo, they could help us crush the Ileshans.

but also

>This candidate might get too big for his britches and use Oyo to bully us

>Also how many people were in a royal family and considered royal at a time?

Potentially hundreds considering the custom of polygamy. Mind you sex slaves and concubines could not bear legitimate heirs. Bastards were social outcasts.

Different wives had different ranks depending on their patrilineage. Your chief wife was not necessarily your favorite wife, but your most important wife.

>We're there restrictions on who could be voted for.

Depended on the city state. As far as voters were concerned it could vary just as much. In some cases the Oba could appoint his chief counselors, but they had no right to vote. In other cases only initiates of the secret societies could vote for example. In a few cities elections were decided by elder men from each clan.

>>84415457
Ruthlessness is often selected for in polygamous societies. In Kongo for example when the king died it was open season between princes. You spent your father's entire life plotting and scheming and trying to become more popular than your brothers so when the old man finally keeled over your political followers gave you the advantage in royal elections. Sometimes by force.

For this reason, ranks existed among wives. Your chief wife provided your 1st choices of legitimate heirs. Your lesser wives might have designated statuses for their children to prevent infighting between brothers.

>Don't worry Timi, you shall be the lord of XYZ province
>So please don't go after your half-brother Asabi, or we won't recognize your legitimacy

cool thread

>>84412660
>>84412680
>>84412714
>>84412748
Holy fuck thanks, ive got a lot of reading to do, i suppose.

>>84415150
that's a good point. i did that with my !european, !middle-east and !imperial chinese equivalents because im very familiar with their cultures. part of why i made this thread was so that i could get some more cultural context without blind wikidiving. as a side note, the desert elves actually follow a sort of Anansi character, Grandfather Spider, as that's the only African myth that I'm familiar with. hes a trickster god who tricked the night god into giving him a tiny bit of the night sky to make a shield against the sun. this is where the moon comes from, according to the desert elves. it is the hole that daylight comes in through, where the shield above their city was cut from the heavens.

"A Black Byzantium, the Kingdom of Nupe in Nigeria." By S. F. Nadel. 1942. London: Oxford University Press is an excellent anthropological survey of the Nupe kingdom which was allowed to function relatively untouched by British colonials into the early 20th century as long as they paid their taxes. It's free to read online in most places.

If socio-political autism isn't your thing then there's lots of lore to pull from different places. I've had an idea for a while now of making a WoD fangame based on African Witches. I had a daydream which I thought was cool as shit. Like I'm in a dark forest and then hear chattering hyenas and just see a bunch of Witches riding them towards a creepy green light in the distance. From overhead there's jets of flame which dance across the sky and almost resemble human figures headed in the same direction. Then there's a hot looking woman with little mouths all over her body being carried on a fancy palanquin by zombis. Finally there's all the assembled witches of different varieties surrounding a grave with the sickly green light coming from it. At this point baboons, civets, and dwarf familiars wander about. A tall man wearing a necklace of skulls and a bracelets of human teeth rises out from the grave holding a girl and sucks out her soul before turning into a gigantic owl and flying off to the sound of cheering witches.

>>84416145
For the sake of fun without sacrificing relative accuracy you could carve Africa into a few different themeparks.

>Sahel
>Jungle
>Not!Middle-East + the Horn
>Southeast Africa
>Southern Africa

>>84412660
>look through folder
>come close to the end, think 'neat little collection'
>"Load 564 more images"

damn bro

>>84412377
How were they actually treated in IRL African nations back then? Which treated them best and why?

>>84409980
You can kind of split sub-saharan Africa into four sub-regions.

West Africa is where most of the medieval kingdoms are, as it's where most of the major-river valleys that help produce civilization are and much more of it are flat grasslands. Islam perforated through the area thanks to trade across the Sahara.

Then there's east-africa, wherein there was Ethiopia on the borders of Egypt, and the coastline of the Indian Ocean, where states would trade with arabs and indians allowing for a lot of ideas to transfer across, including again islam. The indian-ocean-coastline also would use Swahili as a trade language, and would amass a lot of wealth.

Then there's the Congo Basin that was isolated thanks to the massive jungles, but the Congo river helped provide a basis for civilization

And finally there's southern africa which was largely barren and nomadic thanks to being overwhelmingly dry, outside of the Zimbabwean civilization which mysteriously collapsed.

>>84417638
From what I've seen, not particularly terrible, not particularly great compared to the rest of the world.

There were some prominent African women and queens naturally, including unironically a black woman king (or kang) who insisted on using the title King. Supposedly according to myth every night she would have two men duel to the death for the right to bed her, and the man who won would be executed in the morning.

I do know that in nomadic pastoral cultures in the arid regions closer to ethiopia and kenya, as the men do all the herding, the women do all the merchantry, so the saying amongst the culture is 'wealthy is the man with many daughters'. The women in the culture also do all the crafts and preparing of the animals (that is the leather and meat, etc.)

Also I know in some other eastern african cultures dowry's are reversed, where the husbands family has to pay the brides family before the marriage- this is the basis of one of Africa's epic hero's, where a king insisted on having all his wives only give birth to daughters so he could grow rich. One of the wives has a son, but the kid refuses to exit the womb so he doesn't get executed for five years.

Also I know many west-african cultures are matriarchal, in the sense you trace familiy lineage through the mothers line and not the fathers.

>>84416145
Egyptian-Nubian mythology has the Pesdejet. They’re a group of gods who protect humanity from the forces of chaos, especially the demon Apep. Set is pretty evil himself but unlike Apep he simply wants to rule the world rather than destroy it, so sometimes he helps the other gods fight him at night.

The ancient Berber gods of the Maghreb were called the Dii Mauri by the Romans. The main characters were goddesses and heroic queens. The creator goddess Settut hates mankind (especially men and boys) and is always trying to destroy us. The evil spirits like the Waghzen and Kel Asuf are weak to silver weapons and amulets. They hate humans but tolerate human females more.

Cushitic mythology revolves around Waaq worship. Waaq is the lord of heaven. Below him are the Ayyaana who are lesser beings which possess people to communicate the will of the gods. Each clan is protected by a unique guardian Ayyaana. Maaram is the goddess of the sea and wife of Waaq. The world is haunted by various evil spirits and especially man-eating giants of the wilderness.

In Mali the world was created through interactions of the four elemental gods: Faro (Water), Pemba (Earth), Ndomadyiri (Wood), Muso Koroni (Fire), and Teliko (Wind). Muso Koroni and Pemba went bad, spreading chaos in the world until Faro and her allies stopped them. Now Faro comes back to earth every 400 years to make sure the world is running properly. Various monsters from Wokulos to Bilissis were created from Muso Koroni and Pemba’s /d/ tier adventures on earth.

The Holle are the Songhai gods. They are the forgotten children of Adam and Eve. They traveled from Egypt to the Niger River to establish culture and seize power from the spirit beings called Zins. They mostly settled in heaven after sorting out the world. The job of making the place safe for humans was left to heroes like Faran Maka and Moussa Gname. At a later date the Songhai flew on a magic carpet to escape from Fulani and Tuareg raiders.

>>84418123
>matriarchal

No. Matrilineal. Your mother gets a voice in the family, but all decisions fall under the final word of men.

>>84409861
>when your entire empire is trading posts created by Arabs

>>84418276
Around Lake Chad there was a race of giants called the Sao. They built cities with high walls, drank up rivers, and hunted elephants like normal men hunt rabbits. Eventually they were conquered by the ancestors of the people who live there now.

The Dinka, Anuak, Shilluk, and Nuer believe that the warrior king Nyikang was born the son of a prince and a half-crocodile-half-human princess. He raided the sun for cattle and had many adventures before the tribes broke up. All of them worship the god Jok or Ajok alongside a host of similarly named spirits.

The Azande supreme deity has many names. Mbori, Bapaizegino, Bapai, Mani, etc. He created the world and got the human race in motion. All things come from a great canoe he had sealed up.
The creator has two aspects: Yende the masculine god of light above, and Ndasu the goddess of darkness below. Mani manifests himself in the rainbow: Kelema , which is believed to be a double snake. Two snakes, one light, one dark-coloured, are lying with one another in the sky. When they are not visible they live in the water, and the grand masters of the secret sect of Mani possess the power to kill people by means of the water. If a Mani sorcerer wishes to kill a
man, that man will feel an irresistible urge to go and bathe in the river. The water will make him drowsy and drag him down to the bottom. There are many nameless creatures living on the bottom of the river who will kill the victim, or torture him and then push him back on shore. Some members of the cult, it is said, control the power of lightning (koki), and can
direct it against those who arouse their wrath. Those members of the sect who control the leopard (ekopi), can send him out to go and kill people for them. Those who control the boa snake (nioka) can call him by means of a magic whistle.

The Hausa worship the Isooki or Bori. They are a kingdom of spirits who live in the red desert city of Jangare. Jangare never stays in one place for long.

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>>84413022
I wouldn't be surprised if they also had venom when used in battle.

>>84416145
You're welcome. Go as far as you want, take as long as you need. Took me years to find all this.

>>84417039
Yeah...

>>84417638
>>84418123
Adding to this, besides Africa having a lot of secret masked societies, there are women-exclusive ones as well as ones for men.

It seems that the Dahomey Amazons were the best documented and largest of several traditions regarding warrior women, but don't take my word for it.

Amanirenas seems like a good queen to take inspiration from, but we mostly know about her from the Roman perspective. Pic related.

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>>84409918
No. When romans say delenda, it stays delended

>>84418541
The Akan worship the Abosom. The Abosom are spirits of nature who manage things in the stead of the creator god Nyame. The mightiest among them is the river god Tano, who shields humans from Owuo the god of death. Anansi is the trickster spider and friend of Nyame. Other creatures include petty dwarf spirits called Mmoatia and jungle demons known as Sasabonsam.

The eastern neighbors of the Akan like the Ewe, Fon, and Aja believe in the Vodun. The Vodun are the African counterparts of the Afro-American Voodoo spirits called Loa. Chief among them is the moon goddess Mawu, who is a dual deity alongside her husband/sibling the sun god Lisa. The trickster Legba is a wily sex god. The Vodun possess their worshippers to communicate messages. They had many adventures building the universe.

The Orishas are the gods of the Yoruba. They are opposed by the wicked Ajogun. The Orishas are very anthropomorphic and behave in many ways like the Greeks gods. Below the Orishas are different types of spirits, ghosts, monsters, and legendary creatures variously called Irunmole.

Next to the Yoruba are the Igbo. They worship the Alusi. Different regions of Igboland hold different gods as more important. In Nri for example the ruling deity is Ala the earth goddess. Elsewhere it is Igwe the sky god. However more powerful than any other god is the aloof Chukwu.

The Duala worship the supreme god Njambe. And lesser water goddesses called Jengus. Equally important to the Jengus are the ghosts called Edimos.

The Fang and Beti tell stories of legendary ancestors called the Ekang. Though not worshipped they are held in high regard and looked to as symbols of strength and valor. The Ekang are immortal superheroes of sorts constantly battling to keep the secret of their power safe from the ambitious mortals of Oku.

The Kongolese believe in of nature and ancestor spirits inhabiting ritual statues “Nkisi”. In ancient times the world was controlled by monsters called Nzondo.

>>84418822
Their Afro-American counterparts call the gods Kimpungulu. The notable gods include Nzazi the thunder, Kalunga the sea, and Bunzi the earth.

The Mbundu gods are closely related to the Kongo gods and are called Kilundu.

The Nyanga tell of the Bashumbu gods. They intervened pretty regularly in the epic of Mwindo.

The tribes of the Great Rift Valley believed in the Cwezi. They were a mythical tribe of divinities who created a vast nation in East Africa before vanishing from the face of the earth.

The Nguni worship their ancestors as both gods and men. These beings are called the Amadlozi.

>>84409765
>I'm not that knowledgeable on African cultures
This is the pitfall of examples of it in fantasy writing as well. Not many people in western cultures are knowledgeable about the subject, so they aren't good at writing about it.

>>84409765
Not gonna lie, it would be pretty cool to play a campaign set in an African nation that trades slaves for guns so they can continue conquering their neighbors.

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>tfw ABookOfCreatures had to shut down because of the Lebanese economic crisis

We were fucking robbed

>>84419660
I recently studied the slave trade in my African-American History class. Here are some notes:
>There were older but smaller slave-trades across the Sahara and Indian ocean
>These slave trades continued and in some capacities increased, but we don't have as good documentation on them
>forget his name, but one african slave even managed to become a sultan in India
>Europeans at first mostly set up trading posts along the west-african coast, which is where most of the slaves would be traded from
>this source of wealth, trade, and guns would then make the african kingdoms on the coast the most powerful, allowing them to go after the kingdoms of the interior
>slaves were believed to have different temperments from different kingdoms, Beninese slaves were considered to be the highest quality, while those from martial kingdoms were considered more likely to rebel and thus less valuable
>slaves on a slave ship would come from multiple different backgrounds and usually not able to speak the same language- this was on purpose as being form the same region would make the more likely to work together to revolt.
>most slaves put on to the ships had no idea where they were going or why- it was an incredibly common belief that white people were cannibals who would eat the slaves they boarded on the ships. It was quite common then for slaves to try to commit suicide to avoid this fate, usually by jumping in the ocean to drown. Those that succeeded were often cheered on by the other slaves. Trying to starve themselves was also a common tactic, resulting in slave crews to invent devices to force-feed the slaves (one you stuff down someones mouth, turn the crank to forcefully open their mouth and pour down some gruel)
>the slaves would be marched to the front deck once a week to be washed and get exercise to keep their muscles active for when they'd be put on sale
(cont.)

>>84419870
>the thing nobody ever depicts about the slave trade, because it's fucking disgusting, is slaves did not get bathroom breaks. They would be stacked shoulder to shoulder, and on top of each-other like a book-case (women would be kept closer to the stairs than the men under the idea they were less likely to rebel). And rather than going to the bathroom, you'd be locked in the storage chained together for a week and just having to relieve yourself where you were, with the human waste trickling down onto the guy below you, and on to the floor. How bad this was depended on if the slave captain believed in loose-packing or tight-packing
>this meant that slave ships STANK like literal shit, and you could literally smell them a mile away, you could also recognize a slave ship by the presence of holes closer to the sea-line that were air-holes. That many people that close together would take in all the oxygen in the room, so they needed those air-holes. Other features of a slave ship would be nets on the side that were to keep slaves from trying to jump overboard, and a raisable floor in front of the aft called the Baricado that could be raised as a wall in the case of a slave-revolt, which according to anecdotal evidence were incredibly common. In such an event the crew would retreat to the aft, raise the Baricado, and shoot at the slaves from above until order was restored
>as you can imagine serving on a slave ship was a miserable experience, and we have hard data that serving on a slave-ship was the deadliest maritime industry of it's age. With all the human waste in the confines below it was naturally incredibly unsanitary, add on to that the constant slave revolts. Many of the crewmen were often shanghai'd by the captains- regardless of how shit a human being you are, if you are a sailor you can easily find work on a ship where black people aren't likely to try to kill you, and the ship doesn't smell like raw sewage.
(cont.)

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Mondjoli-Mbembe is a type of half-bird and half-man from the Central African Republic believed to have magical powers like teleportation and invisibility. Sometimes they leave out extra fish for people. If a person is greedy and takes them all however, the creature will track them down to their village and make them pay.

>>84419999
>Slave captains were said to be uniformly the worst of human society however, who ruled through terror, and would often treat his crew little better than the slaves, and if you died on the journey, they dumped your body overboard for the sharks like with the dead slaves, only you'd do it at night so the slaves wouldn't notice
>the slave crews were often also dumped at port without wages so the slave captain could just wrangle up a new crew he could con out of wages (cause once you are out at sea you have no choice to do your job, because getting the ship to it's destination is the only way you'll survive, let alone get paid)
>this meant that every new world port was littered with beggars that were former slave-crewman, and curiously the only people that ever showed kindness to these people were slaves, who would often take them into their slave quarters and share what little they had, it's hypothesized because they sympathized with how terrible it was to have been on a slave ship

>>84419748
What else do you have? Because this looks based.

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>>84409765
What are the most underrated African-style fantasy monsters and why?

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>>84421672
Most of them? If you hop on Google you’re lucky to see anything more than the same 10 miscellaneous creatures completely divorced from their actual mythological context. And most of that is fakelore like the Grootslang or the “Man Eating Tree of Madagascar”.

>>84421672
Insibikas shoot fire out of their asses.

Tokoloshes are known to rape people to death with their massive cocks.

Kirimu is a snake-eagle-dog-pig hybrid that breathes fire

>>84409980
The taureg iirc. Sand nomads.

>>84409861
WTF? Mansa Musa is from Civilization 4, and Civ doesn't have rhinos.

>>84409765
This thread brings a tear to my eye. It brings back the spirit of old /tg/. I work at an art gallery, in the African art section. Most of the stuff there is Ghanaian.
There are a lot of masks and idols that have an ugly black crust over them. This crust is made of dried blood, ashes, and crushed egg shells. Having been imbued with the life of other things, they have gained a life of their own. Masks signify certain jobs in the community, and will be passed down through generations. So when someone wears a mask, you talk to the mask, not the person wearing the mask. The mask you talk to now is the same one that was worn in your great-grandfather's time, and its decrees are just as absolute now as they were then. In many ways, the mask wears the person, not the other way around.
There is also an emphasis on the love of family and community. There is a Ghanaian saying: "If you do not let your brother climb, then you will not climb."

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>>84415150
How did Yoruba dress before Islam and colonialism? I know about West African strip woven textiles, but not how modern the folk garments made from them are.

>>84422429
that's good to hear, anon. glad i could make you smile with the thread :)

>>84409918
Carthage was a Phoenician colony

>>84409765
>its hard to find art that isn't either Egypt or spear-wielding, hut-dwelling tribesmen
That's because that's all there is, excepting Carthage and the Berbers. All the cope about Mali, Songhay, Kanem, Kilwa, Ethiopia - they all fall into the spear-wielding, hut-dwelling tribesman category.

>>84422430
>How did Yoruba dress before Islam and colonialism?

That's a pretty deep dive. We've been interacting with Muslims like the Hausa and Nupe and Fulani since medieval times even though we wouldn't convert in any meaningful numbers until the 19th century. Northerners likely still wore white robes for protection from the sun in the dry season. Southerners were more likely to wear kilts/skirts without a top. Hats and headdresses made of red coral were always popular with the upper classes. Facial scarification was mostly stomped out by Islam so I think more people would wear the scars. White clothing was a status marker. You needed wealth to keep it clean all the time when it's hot as balls. Either you stayed indoors in the cool shade away from the sun or your servants and slaves could wash your garments every day.

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>>84412377
Mmmm... dark meat.

>>84422612
Cool, thank you.

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Rule of thumb if you're going for a high fantasy vibe, the Sahel is the best pick.

>Armored cavalry who live by a warrior code of honor
>Epic scale conflicts where the fate of nations hangs in the balance
>The earth itself is literally an ancient evil sleeping for now
>Gods return to earth
>Magic is commonplace but mostly in the form of petty charms, single-power amulets, and potions
>Classes are literally baked into the setting (warriors, griots, blacksmiths, hunters, etc.)
>Lost heirs everywhere
>Prophecies of rightful kings in hiding
>Girls disguising themselves as boys to fight wars
>Heroic last stands against insurmountable odds
>Elaborate court intrigues full of backstabbing and secret alliances

The jungles are better suited for heroic fantasies.

>Smaller scale
>Weird-ass adventures
>Bullshit magic everywhere
>Combat is way more over the top
>Less plot driven and more character driven
>Death is super cheap
>Conflicts are generally more personal
>Freaky races and exotic tribes every time you walk a mile

>>84422634
10/10 would eat, roasted or raw

just take any european mythology and stick black people in it. way easier

>>84420088
>curiously
It's not even that strange unless you're a western modern looking back at it with a preconfigured view of the slave-crew as privileged oppressors.

>it's a bumpfag episode

>>84423635
>10/10 would eat, roasted
Definitely include a people group of independent villages speaking the same language who never form into a larger entity because they love raiding their neighbors for cannibalism.

>bumpfag shifting into maximum overdrive

Great thread, chuds. This will be useful for my civ quest.

>>84423796
Bump

>>84412660
Awesome! Saved

>>84409918
You guys really need to start learning the difference between North Africa and (sub-Saharan) Africa.

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>>84409765
Idk if this has been mentioned, but I've been reading the Imaro books by Charles R. Saunders; they're "sword & soul", a variant of sword & sorcery with a more African-oriented theme to it. They're not amazing stories, but I find the setting and ideas growing on me. I'm more than halfway through book 2, pretty interesting overall so far. Imaro's fought a bunch of monsters, wild animals, Lovecraftian horrors, wicked sorcerers, etc.

>>84422612
>scarification
I'm legit curious about this. Was there a problem with infection and what did people use to keep the cut clean?

Were the scars to denote rank or affiliation?

>>84413585
>>84422634
I like their wigs.

>>84409918
I would but one of my players would insist that the party razes and salts it for the meme.

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>>84409765
I know that you're not supposed to copy other fantasy settings because that eventually leads to horrible incestuous garbage like modern fantasy (aka D&D/warcraft-esque shit) but I did end up copying a lot from Guild Wars: Nightfall, particularly the nation of Kourna, which is basically African Prussia. I reason to myself that NF was fairly original (or at least, close to IRL natural & mythological inspiration rather that taking from other fantasy settings) to begin with so there wasn't some long chain of derivation happening.

>>84415150
This is kind of the problem of African settings. They have to be described through European cultural reference and that makes them feel like Xerox copies of European equivalents.

Shit, the literal best Africancentric fantasy writing I've seen makes a joke out of how Shango is "a typical black electric superman" and that "he's kind of like Africa's answer to Thor or Perun" which...honestly slaps in the context.

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>>84425561
>Was there a problem with infection and what did people use to keep the cut clean?
At least in some cases, they would purposely inflame the wounds, to make the scars more noticeable. I don't know how they would prevent the scars from getting worse though. Sure there was some good method, otherwise scarification wouldn't be widespread.

>Were the scars to denote rank or affiliation?
Pic related.

>>84426753
Agreed. Just the symbolism of snakes as positive animals can already be hard to grok for some.

>>84426496
One could go a lot worse than copying GW. Kouma wasn't particularly "African", but it sorta managed to be its own thing.

>>84425585
Why is it that wigs are so popular among black women?

>>84426753
Nothing wrong with that. Most people play Japanese and Chinese themed games as Medieval Europe analogies. Metaphors are useful.

>>84427185
They are? Since when has that been a th?

>>84418325
Kek

>>84427185
>>84427909
Lot of black people have trouble growing out their hair like white people. And a lot of it tends to be naturally kinky and gets into knots. This is why braids or dreads are more popular.

So if you want to mimic the popular white fashion models (which everyone does) it's a lot easier to just have a short haircut and buy a wig to look the part.

As to when it started, my guess would be around the 20's, which was an era in which black people were able to reach a level of affluence previously barred to them thanks to the Harlem Renaissance, and when black people were pressured to integrate into white society. This was a pressure done by black people to- under the idea that if black people acted sufficiently 'white' enough, they'd be finally accepted as equals in broader american society. This didn't happen, which is why in the 60's with the counter-culture movement and the civil-rights movement natural hair-styles like the afro became promoted instead.

Also btw the ancient egyptians would wear wigs, but more the men than the women. It's easier to just shave your head and wear a wig in the desert, also makes it easier to deal with things like head-lice.

>>84423791
I mean 'not being a slave' is a pretty fucking great privelege to have on a slave ship. Just like 'not being a zombie' is a great privilege to have during a zombie apocalypse.

And don't act like you're some great scholar on the transatlantic slave trade who already knew all this before hand.

>>84422598
Off the top of my head, there's the stele of Ethiopia, the Great Library of Timbucktu, the Blue Mosque of Djenne that are all great monuments of Africa.

>bumpfag still trying his best

>>84428578
Bump bump bumpp

>>84413585
Jade Cargill from AEW, for those interested

>>84409765
>Fantasy African Nations/Cultures
OP you have no idea how appropriate of a title you used. Because "real" would have been a misstatement.

>>84423796
Im OP, and im not Bumpfag. i thought that was clear from the fact that i actually contributed to the thread, instead of just asking questions.

>>84409765
>my fantasy setting, and I've gotten a bit stumped when it comes to not!Africa.
>I'm not that knowledgeable on African cultures
>Thus far I've got a race of nomadic, sand-swimming Scorpion(ish) men who live in the northern desert
>priests (roughly equivalent to a 1st level cleric)

DnD zoomer generation.

>>84429886
>Because "real" would have been a misstatement.
Not OP, but what do you mean?

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>>84412377
Based.
In my game world the dark-skinned people inhabit the dry, deserty eastern region of the continent. Some of them are basically earthbenders and their cities are decorated with monolithic stone statues and structures, and most families have tabaxi slaves and servants.

>>84409918
That's a pretty shitty rendition. Carthage was at the very least three times as big as that.

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>>84432156
Maybe even four

>>84409918
That is one sexy harbor. Why are thalassocratic empires and kingdoms only ever shown with MORE and BIGGER ships, they're never shown to have advanced harbors and ship construction techniques that you would expect.

>>84431123
>most black families have slaves
Very nice

>>84433661
>they're never shown to have advanced harbors and ship construction techniques that you would expect.
Like what exactly? Details man.

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>>84409765
You should watch Kirikou and the Sorceress for inspiration OP

Should not!africans be jungle or desert people?

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>>84409765
give them rhinoceros riding zulu warriors it's a nobrainer but sometimes cliches can be kino

>>84427353
This is definitely not true. Even the incredibly weaboo Rokugan setting makes it clear that this isn't a Medieval Europe analogue. Oriental Adventures (lul) comes the closest but it's literally being applied through the lens of D&D mechanics, which are pretty Eurocentric in basis and outlook.

Oriental settings don't have anywhere near the same problem that African ones do. I suspect this is because Asiatic cultures had expansive written traditions before European explorers showed up. Meanwhile, Africans were rarely literate, and the ones who were tended to have matriculated through European colleges and had those biases intact.

Not even really same but different here.

bumpy

>>84436900
Take Game of Thrones for example, I know, not the most brilliant example, but still. The Iron Islands are talked about as if their navies are second to none. The II are consistently talked about as devoid of resources, and the people that live there are all mindless barbarian morons who only ever talk about raiding and taking things by force. Their navy has no logical reason to exist beyond a few ships. No harbors, and no construction or sailing techniques exist to justify their ability to exist at all. Let alone with ships as large and numerous as they have.

Tolkien of course has a good example. Numenor had a fantastic set of natural harbors and raw materials to build and guard ships, as well as commercial harbors for trade with elves from Valinor. After Numenor falls, Gondor and Arnor have a shadow of their naval might, and prefer to focus on their armies, having lost much of the knowledge that allowed their supremacy.

>>84440321
The point stands. There's nothing wrong with it. Cultural translation works.

>>84433661
Most people don't know about medieval navies, and tend to just slap age of sail tropes on to them.

Not that medieval naval warfare was all that interesting, you had some galleys and some sail-ships, you had the viking longships, but boat-on-boat fights were pretty rare and often avoided.
>>84439208
Both man. Geographic diversity is interesting, and having different biomes helps you differentiate your fantasy black people as having diverse cultures.

It's kind of like asking 'should my fantasy-Europeans live predominantly in the mountains, or in the plains?'

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>>84439208
There are whole settings whose landmass(es) don't have the dimensions and biome diversity of Africa. It even has peaks with snow and glaciers.

Plus the "Points of Light" works quite well with rl Africa, but specially so regarding its cultures and mythologies. Outside the community, be it a village, harbor or kingdom, it's all the Bush.

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>>84409765
Well, how do African cultures handle magic and mages in folklore and myth? Compared to European cultures I mean.

>>84446351
Depends wildly

>>84446351
A few African cultures traditionally believed that ironworking is inherently magical and one specific detail is that every blacksmith knows how to turn into a were-hyena. The name "bouda" is shared by Ethiopians and Berbers.
For that matter, all the African shapeshifter beliefs I've been able to verify are intentional magic. The Somali belief is that the spell to shapeshift into a hyena involves rubbing yourself with a magic wand at nightfall and by repeating this before dawn you return to human state. A leopard-man cult (promising to teach witchcraft to turn yourself into a leopard and back) was documented in parts of West Africa from Sierra Leone to Congo in colonial times.

>>84439324
Rhino cavalry is underrated.

>>84419748
feelsbadman

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How could these masks be utilized for an african fantasy setting?

>>84439208
Yes, and also swamp magic people, tall hunter savannah people, costal trader people and mountain cowboy people
>>84449573
>Masks are personal artefacts of wizards/warriors, greater the deeds and power the more elaborate the decoration
>The inside of the mask is inscribed with spells and blessings from the wise man for favour in battle that the players can customise to their playstyle
>The spell carvings need some chinese medicine tier ingredients though, meaning players have to go off and hunt monsters and animals for the ingredients, bonus if the spell effect is related to how you need to kill the monster

https://archive.org/details/ThePalmWineDrinkardAndMyLifeInTheBushOfGhostsAmosTutuola
Read this. Almost a dadaist spirit journey. Very cool. Propably my favorite post modern style book. Lots of inspiration for creatures in traditional yoruba lore.

thread theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl7vCGI_-4Q

>>84435657
Slavery is a proud African tradition

>>84420043
legitimately scary

>>84451791
But of course, Europeans made it worse. I mean, wasn’t the African version a lot easier to earn your freedom from?

>>84449573
Intelligent objects that grant abilities related to the mask's personality and function. The more one aligns themselves with the purpose of the mask, the stronger these abilities become.

>>84409765
The process of 'fantisization' is often rushed for Africa as a whole.
While the Enlightenment and romantic period were distanced from the greater part of European mysticism, despite the Northern Hegemon beating down the majority of the continent, that cultural oral mysticism was still alive, while others just went extinct.
Essentially, it's attempting to rush an often still living cultural mythos while in contention western elements had multiple transitions out of old myth to folklore to the ultimate conversion into engaging Fantasy.

Though, this is more a problem with races, and human positions can be more malleable and direct. Consider how Tolkien has the Rohirrim basically be his OC Anglo-Saxon Khanate and Gondor is heavily steeped in Eastern Roman Empire elements.
To that end I have some general ideas that may be taken and used that are unique to the Sub-Sahara.
>A grand Imperium/Republic founded by former slaves that expands ruthlessly from the coasts, utilizing advanced technology from afar, advanced boats and trade they stand to enforce their dominion upon the small divided tribes.
>Nomadic hosts of cattle men unbent by the Kings of the land commit to a total war against the agrarian peoples of their region, intent upon razing all settlements and exterminating the weak sedentary peoples.
>A charismatic scholar once exiled returns to his homeland, with an army of foreign converts at his back to obliterate the ancient petty kingdoms and establish a grand theocracy, and his converts will lead armies across the known world in righteous conflict.
>A city so incomprehensibly large that it must constantly keep expanding its earthwork walls, producing a maze-like mass of ditches, moats, entirely subsumed villages, and fresh walls that are incomprehensible to even the cities immediate neighbours.
>A battle of many warlords grows exponentially until dozens of free war canoes with thousands of mercenaries cram in ready for the greatest battle of history.

>>84452852
There are many types of slavery and not all are created equal. It was the 'industrialization' of slavery that cranked it up a notch as it turned a practice into an industry that could essentially support itself and entire states.
And there is the further complication of the fact that the Slave Trade's death turned a sizable portion of East Africa/Central Africa into a mosh pit as those former slaver states didn't go quietly into the night and lasted up to the New Colonial period.

>>84418034
I’ve been reading into Zambia which has some great potential for a setting, as there’s a much more documented mythology for it, as well as having a neat hyper-self-sufficient cultural identity such as a each man mining all of his own iron to make tools.

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>>84452852
>But of course, Europeans made it worse.

>>84409871
It's worth pointing out that Songhai was born from the rebelious provinces of Mali and effectively took over the major trade routes by conquering the north of Mali's territory.

>>84449573
I have mephits wearing similar masks, to make themselves more distinct than a bunch of twigs, rocks, flames, etc. Usually they reflect their personality.

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An important thing to remember about many subsaharan cultures, is that few tribes developed writing. So the the smartest people in African folklore where not scholars but craftsmen.
Culturally this has been reflected in their myths by Wizards not being learned men who spend hours bent over mysterious tomes, but sculpters and carvers of Icons and Fetishes.
There's also frequently a heavy patriarchal theme. The elderly men are usually right, as opposed to the rebellious youth.
I highly recommend the 1987 Malian Fantasy Epic "Yeelen" if you're looking for some inspiration.
Be warned, it's very different from western fantasy, and not everything translates well over cultural barriers.

>>84455737
>is that few tribes developed writing.
Why didn’t they develop writing? And what about female magic users?

>>84444463
It's always strange to run across a genuine philistine.

>>84456636
They largely didn't have a pressing need for writing, and training someone to read & write requires time and therefore resources (in those foregone from collection by both the teacher and student) that were largely not logical for most tribes. Those that had extensive trading relationships did learn scribing and do it, but a lot of it was basically "Mansa Musa owns all this shit" followed by a list.

The oral tradition that they practiced for most of history worked just fine for conveying memes and mores. Honestly literacy is still a pretty inefficient way to convey memes and mores in most of Sub-Saharan Africa. I spent years in East Africa and found the people, particularly the Maasai, wonderful and welcoming. But the majority of them had no real need to read and write. They were still living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. I taught the kids, and the kids typically decided in their teens whether they'd pursue education and western-style work or continue traditional training as a hunter or herdsman or gatherer or what have you. So you had a bunch of Maasai with 7th-8th grade reading skill (which, it should be noted, exceeds the average American high school graduate's) but no real use for it. I'd drag around a trunk of books with me and let them trade out what they wanted for something they had. They loved pulp serials and parables about greed (aka capitalism tales), and while several of them read on subjects, they loved my old collection of books on American bushcraft the most. They were super popular. Covered things like finding shelter, tracking game, making bows, basically Boy Scout stuff.

Anyway, until you have a lot of memes and mores to convey, writing is a major net drag on your society's resources.

>>84456838
What about females who use magic? Do you know anything about this?

>>84459932
NTA, but there are loads of female magic users in various African cultures, malevolent and otherwise. Yoruba has one of the richest literary histories so you could start there.

>>84459932
Not really my area of expertise. I know the bare basics about Loa and the Orisha but the majority of Africans I've met are either animists/shamanistic or practice an Abrahamic religion. My aunt's father's father was an Islamic scholar, and their family had practiced Islam since the Middle Ages. They're Dyula. That's not unusual in Mande cultures.

>>84409861
>It was so large as to engulf nearly two million square miles of area (for reference that is the size all of western europe).
That's bigger than the Roman Empire at its height. Where are you getting this figure, I've never seen Malian borders that cover anywhere near that much land.
>It was so wealthy due to vast gold mines that when its emperor, who was Muslim, travel to Mecca on the Hajj it crashed Europe's economy due to the sudden influx of gold.
If by Europe you mean Egypt then this is true, although he apparently tried to fix it at great personal expense on the return leg of his voyage.

According to legend one of their kings also built up a fleet of 100s of ships and led them off into the Atlantic, never to return.

Aren't they all?

>>84461175
>According to legend one of their kings also built up a fleet of 100s of ships and led them off into the Atlantic, never to return.
Why’d he go and do that?

>>84418034
>Then there's east-africa, wherein there was Ethiopia on the borders of Egypt, and the coastline of the Indian Ocean, where states would trade with arabs and indians allowing for a lot of ideas to transfer across, including again islam
East Africa was also home to some of the earliest Christian churches, and the purported keeping place of the Ark of the Convenant in Axum, a one-time black Jewish kingdom.

>>84452852
>But of course, Europeans made it worse.
And then made it end. Or at least attempted to, African and Arab slavers and traders were reluctant.

>I mean, wasn’t the African version a lot easier to earn your freedom from?
Africa is not a static single place. It'd be like comparing 300BC Spartan/Laconian slavery to 700AD Saxon slavery.

>>84409765
Kino thread
Deserve bump

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>>84421672

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>>84421672

good thread

>>84439189
great film!

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dumping some inspirational art

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>>84472079

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>>84472094

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>>84472111

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>>84472127

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>>84472127

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>>84472252

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>>84472260

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I do not recall the name of this building, I believe its a mosque. I have lifted this design for a lot of my sci-fi settings.

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>>84409765
Did any African societies have any female warriors?

>>84409949
>I'm assuming when OP says "Africa" he means Sub-Saharan African, specifically Negroid-type people
No he doesn't you fucking /pol/tard. Africa is Africa. A continent, with the highest native genetic diversity on Earth. Even "sub saharans" are not a single race despite the African-American meme.

>>84431123
mhh

>>84474194
Amazons of Dahomey
Their main weapon was the musket (+ bayonet)

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Actual kino thread. Thank you /tg/. This is the only board that knows how to have fun anymore.

>>84475130
why are you mad?

>>84475097
>this one god is called Babalu Aye
>implying the rest are Babalu Nay

>>84474969
So only after the Europeans came. Why DID the Europeans develop faster technologically speaking than the African nations did?

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>>84473489
It's a mosque yes. I think it's one of the six left in Ghana, in the Sudano-Sahelian style.

https://haunsinafrica.com/tag/ancient-mosques-of-ghana/

Drawings and photographs from European travelers show that there were many more.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Du_Niger_au_Golfe_de_Guin%C3%A9e_par_le_pays_de_Kong_et_le_Mossi

There are both religious and secular buildings in this style elsewhere. And a couple of "mosques" built for tourism.

>>84477333
Several reasons. One of them is that they weren't part of Eurasia, and innovations like the chariot took longer to reach them. A lot of Africa lacks timber and stone, which also complicates things. Foreign intervention also plays a role. They have their accomplishments, like making carbon steel when Jesus was around. Pic related.

>>84479159
the carbon dating for that seems inconclusive. they tested wood which can sit around indefinitely in an arid environment and could've been any age when used in the furnace. its also impossible to age anything from oral storytelling. even if it were true, it was one tiny tribe that clearly never spread its methods or even steel outside their tiny confines. its not proof of any technological marvels of africa as a whole

>>84477333
A lack of easy methods of transportation which heavily restricted the flow of ideas along with a climate and geology that renders large chunks of the continent unsuitable for farming capable of supporting large civilizations. Basically, if you don't have consistent weather and numerous navigable waterways, you're going to be lagging behind everyone who does.

>>84462975
They’d heard rumors of a new land across the ocean. Presumably they all died in a storm or something, but with only a small change to history you could have seen the Mali begin to colonize the Americas, probably starting with the eastern tip of Brazil.

>>84461175
It's both egypt and Europe. Crashing the gold market in Alexandria also crashed the gold market in Europe, because you know, Europeans know Alexandria exists and trade there.

>>84481111
There isn't much evidence that Europe's economy was affected by Mansa Musa. Despite the legends he didn't affect the value of gold by very much even in Egypt, and there wasn't enough trade with Christian Europe for slightly lower prices in gold to do more than just make a few Italian merchants richer.

Also the never went to Alexandria, it was Cairo where he spent so much that he drove the value of gold through the floor until he borrowed it back when returning from Mecca.

What ended up crashing the late medieval/early modern market for gold and silver in Europe was the exploitation of the New World, not West African production.

>>84479253
I don’t think anon was saying we wuz wakanda, he’s saying that despite most of the continent not having much technological advances there are anachronistic occurrences of advanced technology.
>>84480584
That’d be a pretty cool alt history. I wonder what Islam would have grown into in South America.

https://litter.catbox.moe/iuuznj.png

>>84480584
>you could have seen the Mali begin to colonize the Americas, probably starting with the eastern tip of Brazil.
Has anyone ever done anything with this idea?

>>84462975
Wanderlust.

>>84477333
Cold winters.

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>>84421672
The Thunderbird

>>84477333
The theory I ascribe to is geographic determinism, and more specifically a lack of fertile river-valleys.

Civilization appears where there just not enough water, examples would be the Fertile Crescent, the Indus River, the Yagtze and Yellow River, the Mexican Cenotes. Where water is too scarce to use carelessly, governments are invented to manage the water for the sake of survival. And if you pay attention to where the most African Civilization occured, it was along places like the Nile (including the estuaries in the Ethiopian Highlands), West Africa, and the Congo River.

However while in Europe there are rivers abound and you can't go 300 miles without hitting a major source of water, in Africa there aren't that many major water sources aside from those I mentioned.

So this means regions are either uninhabited (like the Sahara) or they are in regions plentiful enough that no governmental organization is required. One of the major problems the Mali Empire had for instance was an inability to expand it's borders that far from it's major river- as if the King can't march his troops to ask you why you aren't paying your taxes, then you stop paying taxes, and suddenly the King no longer owns that land. We can also see that in West Africa where most of the fertile rivers are, are also where we see the most medieval kingdoms within Africa that largely did keep apace with Europe.

Now as to why they stopped keeping apace with europe, well the answer there is slavery, where the kingdoms hollowed themselves out by going on constant slave-raids for the massive ammounts of cash that europeans would give them for said slaves. Doing that for centuries on end is going to fuck overy your economy.

>>84485391
>Now as to why they stopped keeping apace with europe, well the answer there is slavery, where the kingdoms hollowed themselves out by going on constant slave-raids for the massive ammounts of cash that europeans would give them for said slaves. Doing that for centuries on end is going to fuck overy your economy.
The Islamic slave trade in East Africa lasted from the 8th century until the British forced it to end, though. Are you saying that didn't affect civilization because all the good river valleys drain into the Atlantic, so they were just enslaving primitives?

nubiamb

>>84485391
>The theory I ascribe to is geographic determinism
Are you also going to tell us how its impossible to domesticate zebras?

>>84475097
This nigga lookin zesty

>>84486692
No, and I don't see why you'd think that unless you were purposefully trying to make a strawmans argument because I've offended your politics.

The trans-saharan slave-trade is much older than the trans-atlantic slave trade, and also much smaller. Which is the reason there are less black people in Saudi Arabia than in Georgia or in Haiti. You can't grow tobacco in Arabia like you can Virginia. You can grow cotton in egypt, but that gets farmed perfectly well by Egyptians.

There was a much greater demand for slave labor in the New World than there ever was for the islamic world. There was also an trans-indian slave trade where slaves would be traded from Africa to India, which again was smaller because there was a smaller demand for slaves, as indians weren't busy trying to populate two new continents, and had plenty of indians just laying around.

Instead of trying to make this an issue of race or of religion, we should remember the true enemy and that this is an issue of capitalism.

>>84488119
>how its impossible to domesticate zebras?
Aren’t they just striped horses?

>>84490223
Striped Horses who, unlike horses; evolved along side humans so they register us as a threat.

>>84490223
Zebras are stripped donkeys.
>>84490255
People have tamed zebras and if it wasn't for the advent of motor we had a brit mad lad than was in the process with some of the sub especies of zebras to make them domesticated for going looking for gold and that stuff.

>>84490279
taming an animal isn't the same thing as domesticating a species

there are 'tame' lions and grizzly bears

>>84490308
Yeah, and we domesticated foxes in 50 years. If that dude had still the need and it was profitable to do so, we would have domesticated zebras right now, but alas, cars were better for what he wanted the domesticated zebras for, so his pet project was abandoned.

>>84490336
Zebras refuse to breed in captivity is the major hurdle from what I’ve read.
You’d need to snatch up bunch of baby Zebras and raise them almost exclusively through human contact, which will give you retarded zebras that can’t care for their own young.

>>84490614
They are? Weird, as donkeys in general are horny animals than will try to breed even with non donkeys, but then I never had a zebra.

>>84490688
That and when forced into pregnancy females will aggressively stress themselves out to miscarry. If what the one anon said about them recognizing humans as a threat is true, they probably naturally view pregnancy as a death sentence in that kind of situation.

>>84490336
zebras have been there for far longer than motor cars have. but it was the introduction of cars that prevented it from EVER happening, sure

>>84490688
its almost like they aren't donkeys and are an entirely different species

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>>84490887
Not ever, you just need some autist with enough funds to do it, that's how the foxes were domesticated. Then in about 50 generations, you will have domesticated Zebras. In the 18th century there was a movement in some armies to train Moose as Snow cavalry, so pitching it to the army could be a good way to get funds. Or to milk them, there are moose farms but the milk is just too expensive.

>>84491136
foxes aren't zebras

>>84491155
... Yeah, they are caninae. And zebras are Equss. Both are families where you got some of the most famous domesticated animals, Dogs and Horses/donkeys. You just have to breed them with other zebra than are naturally looking human contact and interbreed them. We hadn't done that to elephants (than actually find us cute) because they have too long of a lifespan and you could tame wild ones.

>>84491210
Heck, you could directly breed zebras with donkeys, and just reduce the timespan a lot, and get Zeedonks.

>>84491210
some animals literally cannot be domesticated anon regardless of family. some animals won't even breed in captivity, let alone get domesticated

>>84491136
>In the 18th century there was a movement in some armies to train Moose as Snow cavalry
and it didn't work

>>84491242
they've tried that, the offspring are mostly infertile like in mules

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>>84491275
Get a donkey near a zebra and the magic will hapen anon.

>>84491283
thats not a zebra anymore, anon. is your IQ in the single digits?

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>>84491210
Regardless of family some animals have too strong of animal instincts and are far too picky about their environment to ever stand being around humans and will only tolerate you at best but you'll never find any to selectively breed when they literally all hate everything about how and where humans live. If something can really be domesticated than it has been already as much by the will of the animal looking for easier living as by humans. Even "domestic" foxes are very peculiar pets that most people would be unable to deal with

Why would Africans go to the effort of domesticating an aggressive species of donkey to work as a pack animal when they already had horses, camels, oxen and donkeys already in most of their civilizations? the only Africans that didn't already have some kind of riding mount or pack animal were the culture groups on the savannah, far removed from the major population and civilization hubs on the west coast and up along the east coast.

>>84472439
Sexxxx!!!

>>84491347
look just give some guy money to mash a square peg into a round hole. he needs to buy a new house

>>84491347
Because its an animal already adapted to the medium and doesn't die of the Tze Tze fly like horses? And Donkeys are already vicious, they think where to strike or bite to cause more damage, so it isn't nothing new, that's why they were at first used to pull chariots and after selective breeding you had the assholes of today.

>>84490336
We haven't domesticated foxes. We got part of the way there. Domesticated foxes are still extremely skittish around humans and prone to aggression.
>>84491665
Horsese seem to be used just fine in Africa. Chad was famous for it's cavalry. It's the main thing they're known for after being named Chad.

>>84491879
They don't,only in zones where the tse-tse fly isn't common it was used. The more to the south of the sahel you go, the more expensive it was to get and maintain a horse. In africa they generally didn't use them in pastures, they hand feed them (wich is very expensive), what in the coast would cost 3-6 slaves, you could get 15-20 because the rarirty. The trade of horses from the Berber or Portuguse was very big because that. That's why having a breed of equus than is adapted to the medium would have been genius, having your priced war animals die isn't good for the economy or a kingdom.

>>84409918
Would be neat to have a mountain of salt out there, but it'd probably have way too many implications on medieval economy with that much salt easy to grab.

>>84490223
More or less. The point is that geographical determinism is quackery and dosent explain why certain ethnic groups still act like retards in the modern age

>>84491955
Yeah, but part of the problem is the further south you go, the more jungly it is, which is bad terrain for horses to begin with. Like europeans weren't massing great cavalry charges in the heart of the Amazon rainforest.

>>84492382
Oh, well the answer to that is obviously colonialism.

I mean do you really expect that if a bunch of white people showed up, shot everyone, took all your resources, and then when they left, left with a legacy of trying to divide local people against each-other while maintaining informal economic control, and after all that you can make car companies that can topple Ford and the like?

Geographic determinism explains why certain regions start less developed than others, colonialism explains why people continue to be disadvantaged against others.

>>84492426
>Oh, well the answer to that is obviously colonialism
Its not, but your response is predictable. You are a textbook npc

>>84492395
What are the wars for indepenence, of course they were used in what you would call the jungles, matto grosso and stuff like that, people are bitching they are cuting the amazones for pastures man.

>>84492458
I mean do you want to offer an alternative theory? Like eugenics?
>>84492476
Yes, but I don't see how the two points are connected.

>>84492522
What points? Cavalry is very useful in jungles or pantanals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydyEIVLuZCM
Here a vid in english from a tourist explaining it. A horse/Mule/Zeebra for that kind of terrains would be useful, specially in the past. If you need a reason to domesticate zebras, even if it was only to mix them with horses, here you have one.

>>84492597
zebra hybrids are hard to breed, invariably sterile, and don't have the temperament to make good mounts

also there is a lot of Africa that doesn't have a chronic tse tse fly problem, the existence of extensive cavalry culture in both eastern and western africa is proof of this, its mostly a problem in the tropical interior, the congo and such

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>>84492691

>>84492597
Its obviously a bunkertroon or similar that came here specifically to debate the subject in bad faith. Recognize the signs

>>84492786
I ever give the benefit of the doubt, but the bad faith I noticed yeah.

>>84492597
I mean the point about them cutting down the amazon for pastures. They are doing that, but I don't see how it relates to them using cavalry in the jungle. Once they chop up the Amazon for grazing land it stops being jungle, and the land is used for cattle primarily.

>>84491300
>thats not a zebra anymore, anon
NTA, but what is it then?

>>84492382
>geographical determinism is quackery
I’ve never even heard of it before today.

>>84497497
The idea is that the geography of a culture is the primary determinant of how that culture develops.

Which I figure is the most logical view of things- cause I mean, what other factors are there in how a culture develops other than the physical factors of the environment the culture lives in? Sure some cultures might get into contact with others and share ideas, but who they get into contact with is mostly going to be determined by geography too.

>>84491210
Horses and donkeys aren't really similar in the way they organize, however. Horse herds have a clear structure with one horse as the head of the herd and a herd structure around that; we domesticated horses by basically replacing the head horse with a human.

Zebras don't really form herds in the same way. They group together for defense but there isn't really a leader or structure, there's just a bunch of zebra hanging out together. You get small family units, a mother zebra and her foals, but no large organization like in horse herds.

Honestly I just imagine Menzoberranzan with whoodoo spear chucker outfits and less scifi-looking architecture.

>>84498633
So yes, the alternative answer is eugenics, thank you for saying the quiet part out loud anon.

>>84500006
Why's Eugenics such a dirty word? Nobody has a problem when a chinless wonder incel is bitching because nobody wants to fuck him.

>>84500092
Six gorrilian, slavery, small pox. No one particularly cares about the word outside of the west.

>>84500092
Well there's the racism. The sexism. The ableism. The fact that most people who promote eugenics haven't the first clue how race, ethnicity, or gentics work and are merely peddling pseudoscience to promote authoritarian polices.

>>84500092
there's a world of difference between individuals selecting who to marry and an authoritarian government deciding who gets to marry

>>84500092
The anon you responded to isn't even using the word correctly. The just wanted (you)s

>>84500400
There "is" a world of difference, because hypothetically in about 100 years we could be a gaggle of gorgeous beach people with phds that speak like 3 languages each.

Or we could be the same clusterfuck retard shitshow we've always been, shooting at each other and mistrusting one another because we are the living embodiment of dysgenics and discord. Like, this guy I'm working with is black, bald on top, has eyeballs that are trying to pop out of his eyelids like a fucking pug, and goes on deranged, angry rants about 4 angels that control everything and child support laws. Dude doesn't wash his hair because he thinks black people have magically self cleaning hair.

If you think eugenics is tyranny, wait until you experience Balkanization! You may end up with a benevolent dictator, or you may end up with someone like my cohort pulling some Pol Pot shit.

>>84500502
The only correct response so far

>>84500698
Okay firstly okay mr. ubermensh.

Second is this the part where you try to convince me you aren't racist?

Thirdly: Eugenics wasn't some savior of Yugoslavia that once removed caused the collapse of the glorious communist utopia that was Yugoslavia.

>>84490279
>Zebras are stripped donkeys.
>stripped
Get out of here, furry!

>>84498449
>but no large organization like in horse herds.
Any particular reasons that might be the case?

>>84500798
What's wrong with being racist

>>84504837
You’re wasting your time hating people other than the Jews.

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Would having more fetishes make an African sorceress more powerful?

>>84506253
Coomer be gone.

>>84506253
Would having more wands make a European wizard more powerful?

>>84506332
Not that kind of fetish.

>>84506987
What led to African magic users having them and European ones having wands?

>>84507629
I think it comes from Christianity, Ancient Greek seers used to do similar viscera rituals and using animal pieces as talismans. Christianity takes the animal sacrifice away as God tells people they can’t sacrifice to him since everything is his to begin with, so you then lean into the Christian iconography of plant and manufactured artifacts like the cross, spear of Longinus, and the crown of thorns. Combined with the Druidic practices of Europa that were subsumed by Christian cosmology in order to expedite the conversion of far reaches like Scandinavia and the British isles. It leads to holy powers of wood (the ark of the covenant was specifically made from acacia wood).
I’m not a hundred percent certain but I’d imagine fetishes fit more in line with totems or spirit animals like the American indigenous and Norsii cultures would use, you’d likely only have one that you’d take on or pour yourself into.
African mask magic would be your go to for multiple artifacts on a single practitioner as the many faces afforded would likely exponentially increase your potential applications.
And as always, fuck off bumpfag.

>>84506987
>Would having more wands make a European wizard more powerful?
Maybe? You need one arm per wand, though, and growing extra arms is something many FRPGs have no rules for.

>>84508652
You only need to use a second to get an advantage. Maybe you could use a third in your teeth like Zoro?

>>84504689
There's not a particular reason for this but for animals that served a use and had such a structure it was natural for humans to at some point be able to take advantage of it. Maybe you can pin it on a gene some of these animals share.

But horses and zebras are an examples of where the lack of this trait in an animal made it difficult enough to domesticate that humans weren't likely to do it accidentally.

What would be some essential spells for a vodoo wizard?

>>84517635
Besides Voodoo dolls you mean? Zombie mind control.

>>84517635
Curses.
I was doing construction work on a missionary’s house one time and he would tell us stories about africa on lunch.
One story was about how a local man was cursed by a witch doctor to be followed by a vicious dog. The dog wouldn’t attack anyone that ignored or treated the man poorly but attacked anyone who treated the man with kindness.

>>84517635
purify food. purge womb. dick shrinking curse. love enchantments

>>84520226
Why? What did he do to deserve that curse?

>>84412660
Dude, you should put this shit in a pastebin, it's pretty useful and I'd like to have it on hand without having to use a 4chan archive site that might be slow or down ATM.

>>84522965
He was knocking up women wherever he comes from and either one of them or a parent asked for him to be cursed.
He was specifically not a local so it’s second hand even to my second hand source.

>>84492426
"Once apon a time niggers were not niggers... and other tall tales people like to pretend they belive."
Written by certified not racist anon.

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>>84523222
That's from the pastebin I already made last year, with the exception of the very last link about the Sahara and its people:

https://pastebin.com/zeyzz5Qa

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>>84409765
What are some harmful stereotypes to avoid like the plague?

>>84525742
For one remember that sub-saharan africa wasn't a unified country and culture. It was much like europe, separated into numerous cultures and nations. They weren't all tribal either, as there were many medieval kingdoms- though they weren't as common as in Europe and Asia either due to geographic conditions (waterways are key for medieval kingdoms to enforce their borders- roads are expensive to build, but the water makes it easier to move across distances quickly to enforce tax laws).

Sub-saharan Africa wasn't isolated either- parts of it were, but there were thriving trade routes across the Sahara, the Indian ocean, and from the African Great Lakes. Africa also wasn't always technologically backwards. East-Africans were using sutures for centuries prior to Europe (using ant-heads to close wounds) and also were able to use monsoon winds to have some of the hottest forges on earth.

>>84526127
>and also were able to use monsoon winds to have some of the hottest forges on earth.
How did that work exactly?

N

What would be a good name for a fantasy not!african continent?

>>84520226
Damn that's actually pretty fucking cruel

>>84528901
Dengue

>>84528901
I usually go with Lemuria.

>>84530293
>Lemuria
Why specifically Lemuria? Wasn’t that supposed to be in the Indian Ocean or somewhere similar?

>>84530905
It was the name given to one of the supercontinents Pangea split off into in a book I read when I was little, combining with the out of africa theory gives me mystical africa ideas

albino witches and cannibalism

>>84409765
I thought that was the brazzers building for a second.

>>84533011
Anon, you’re wrong on an entire spectrum

>>84525339
how are these even used

How about getting inspired by the mythology and lifestyle of the Mbuti Pygmies of the Congo?

>>84527971
I don't know specifically, but like I said it involved funnelling the monsoon winds into a forge to drive up the heat.
>>84528901
Africa is named after Scipio Africanus, so how about instead Scipianus? The greeks referred to Africa as Libya, but that's a modern country so that's out. Likewise for Mauritania the Roman name for Morrocco.
>>84530950
The theory of Lemuria came from an era where people didn't understand continental drift. See scientists could tell that certain species had traveled across continents in order to spread life- evolution was understood, so it was believed similar species must share a common ancestor. However some species were so distant from each-other with no evidence of migration across land-routes that currently exist, so the theory was that there were land bridges that no longer eixst connecting the continents. This is true in the case of Doggerland connecting the british isles and mainland europe, or land bridges between Indonesia, or Siberia and Alaska.

Lemuria however was conceived as an explanation for shared species between Africa and India, again in an era in whcih people didn't understand that the continents move over time thanks to the earth's continental plates, and is complete pseudoscience by todays standards.

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>>84536580
>Africa is named after Scipio Africanus
other way around chief. Publius Cornelius Scipio was only given the name 'Africanus' after conquering the African kingdom of Carthage

>>84536718
Oh my b

>>84534706
>pic
It’s a throwing knife
>link
You click it or copy paste it and copy past the information inside for your use.

M.mmm…mmmmuh muh mmuh MUHD HUTS!

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>>84534706
The second to last link >>84412748

>>84536580
>>84527971
I recall watching a documentary about rebuilding these furnaces. They were at the edge of cliffs facing the monsoons, and I think there were ceramic pipes at the base that channeled the winds into the fire.

>>84537322
Got a name I can look up, google keeps giving me Asians when I look for it

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>>84409765
How did African nations handle pirates?

>>84538067
To my knowledge the most piracy they dealt with was in east-africa, where the states there were quite reliant on sea-routes to india and Arabia. But I don't think they had specific anti-pirate policies to them. Most of the rest of Africa wasn't too concerned with the naval side of things, which isn't unusual, in medieval Europe navies were largely conscripted merchant vessels and local sailors in times of war and primarily used for the purpose of transporting ships. Only the Byzantine Empire, and the merchant republics had proffessional navies up until the age of Sail. China even went and burned all their ship at one point because they reasoned they were a useless waist of money that wasn't doing anything (this proved to be the wrong call when the invading Manchu who were horse-nomads ended up with a larger navy than China when they conquered them).

>>84488563
>Which is the reason there are less black people in Saudi Arabia than in Georgia or in Haiti

Nah. It's because they castrated all the male slaves you lying commie shit stain

>>84537322
Sounds like an interesting watch. What was the name of the documentary?

>>84538279
>China even went and burned all their ship at one point because they reasoned they were a useless waist of money that wasn't doing anything
They emperor ordered it because the navy was under eunuch control, and they tried to fuck with him and failed. He also put the dry docks and shipwrights out of bussines for that same reason, and when generations later they wanted to rebuild the fleet there was no one alive who knew how to build the bigger ships.

>>84542881
Classic China

>>84542881
>>84542944
Remind me when Mao asked the Chinese to kill sparrows to prevent the birds from eating their crops just to have the insects population usually regulated by the sparrows get out of control ruining their crops and leading to famine.

>>84543010
>Mao
Who? And what crops were they even growing that the sparrows couldn’t resist?

>>84538805
The Hell? If they really did that, why?

>>84537445
Seconding.

>>84546930
Google it

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>>84537445
>>84546930
My mistake, the monsoon furnaces in question were the ones used to make Damascus steel, and they were located in Sri-Lanka.

https://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/archaeology/research/themes/materialculture/monsonsteel/

https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10871/14111/World%20of%20Iron%20Juleff.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

https://youtu.be/k-UEFwnuwXU

>>84474255
>No he doesn't you fucking /pol/tard. Africa is Africa.
You go to a north african country like Egypt and tell them they are the same as negroes and see what happens to you.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/egyptian-diplomat-said-black-africans-were-dogs-and-slaves-vj2jntcr6
https://www.tigraionline.com/articles/egypt-insults-africans.html

>>84548335
>didn't read the post but replied anyway

>>84548347
I read the post just fine nigger. I've been watching you apes screech about muh Africa for years now. If you think your race is so great why not move there to live with it? Do you need to live next to the white man because you can't support yourself?

>>84545310
Chairman Mao, the leader of the communist revolution in china. Guy has a long history of ideas that make sense if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Someone in the party noticed that sparrows were messing about the grain fields, knocking seed, and shit like that. So Mao institutes a policy to kill any birds near the fields, no birds mean there’s nothing to hunt the bugs. The unopposed bugs destroy the grain.
He also had all the civilians gather all metal to make weapons for the revolution and just ended up making a bunch of worthless pig iron and destroyed much of the infrastructure and quality of life in China at the time.
Guy was lucky he could work a crowd because he was not a worthwhile leader, China is lucky that Xi is a sociopathic genius, another Mao would outdo Genghis’ population reduction record

>>84549256
A note on melting down the metals, there's a bit more to it. It's still stupid, but makes a bit more sense on paper.

Communist ideology stresses self-sufficiency, as having to trade things long distances is the tool the capitalist uses to get rich. This is what allowed the USSR to force-industrialize (and why modern Russia isn't the same industrial superpower). Even after they had set up the soviet satellite states, rather than sell russian cars to the poles or the hungarians (which would have made Russia money) they instead made the Poles and Hungarians make their own car companies to make their own cars. The result was the economies of the western world was an interconnected web, while in the warsaw pact nations they were isolated silos.

Mao took this principle of self-sufficiency, but seeing his main support was amongst the rural regions, and China was an incredibly rural nation that (at the time it seemed) no hope of catching up to the west, the idea was to make the rural parts of China self-sufficient with their own mini-industrial revolution. Take all their tools to make forges, and then the peasantry will be self-sufficient to make their own tools, making stronger as a result.

Now the reality as you note, was that the peasant no longer had the tools to farm, and could only produce worthless metal of no use. Which in turn caused mass starvation for no gain, key part of this was Mao ignoring the role that specialization plays in industrialization.
(cont.)

Also it should be noted the main reason why Mao was in charge of China was his role in the legendary long-march, during which the communists were almost wiped out, but had limped to survival (becoming little better than bandits) which let them slowly grow in number to then overtake the Chinese Nationalists. Mao's role as a military commander is pretty dubious, but his ability to keep the movement going long enough to survive while trekking up and down China (for reference, it'd be like if all the Communists lived in New York the government started shooting all of them, and the survivors walked all the way to Montanna, with everyone shooting at them as they went) cemented him as undisputed leader of the party.

Plus the Chinese had been in a state of anarchy and war since 1911 almost, so most people in China at that point preferred a unified government even if it was completely incompetent, than bothering to try to overthrow it

afribump

>>84550229
>60 IQ post