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Turn the magic schools into lifestyles, and then strongly associate their effects with a color.
So lifestyle wise, the psionics user never speaks, but communicates through their mind. When describing their magic, talk about the purple sigils lighting up.
With the ice mage, talk about how they always seem to have a cold beer at the end of the day, and talk about the blue ice, and chill going up the other players spines as he lets of a level 5 spell. That sort of thing

>>81836339
Huh. hot damn that's a really solid start. Dubs delivers

>>81836286
One is reliant on fastidious planning, one trades critical resources for short term power, one is less powerful but has benefits that are constant and nearly universal in their usefulnes. One is specific in use and powerful, one is capable but dangerous, one is reliable but relatively weaker than the other two.

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>>81836286
In my non-DnD fantasy setting (yeah, yeah, I know) I split magic into the following three types to give them all unique niches and reduce overlap and the generic samey feeling DnD magic has...

>Arcane Magic
This magic more or less involves using rituals, chants, items, ect to get the "attention" of entities which exist in dimensions "behind" our world. Once their attention is upon you, you can draw their "presence" into your body and shape it (a staff or similar focus helps) to have an effect on the physical world. This process is extremely dangerous, and is only taught between masters and apprentices, or small covens. A few academies exist, but given the dangers, few want to send their children to them even if the power offered is great.
Generally this magic does the reality warping and elemental blasty stuff.

>Divine Magic
This magic can't be taught. It happens when someone has a "spiritual experience" that changes the very nature of their soul. Think almost dying and catching a glimpse of what lies beyond, or having a spiritual vision of a divine being. Either way, these people are able to affect the life energy of others, especially "artifical" life like undead. This is your basic healing, buff magic, and undead-roasting. Though this magic can't be "taught" a few holy orders do have rituals called "Harrowings" where they attempt to give themselves spiritual visions through purposeful near-death experiences, such as surviving deadly poison, fasting until they almost starve, ect.

>Primal Magic
Life has a flow through the world. It's hard to hear in civilized places, humans are "spiritually noisy". Those who seclude themselves in the wilds, can, over many years, teach themselves to hear these currents and forge a connection between it and themselves. This is your typical druid and ranger stuff like beast-shaping, compelling the loyalty of animals, manipulating plants, ect. It can be taught, but generally not in an academic setting.

An important thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is ACTUALLY LIMIT what magic can do. D&D magic has a problem of being able to do so fucking much, kind of trivially. It's a real pity. Also Vanican magic is actually very cool in its original incarnation, the problem is that D&D actually stripped out all the cool flavour that it possesses in the Dying Earth books.

>>81836339
This is good advice too. Depending on the magic system, you might not want to do this. In Dying Earth, magic isn't actually associated with intelligence; if you know the spell you know the spell.
But otherwise, lifestyles are really good. You don't just 'be an ice mage' like a guy has a desk job, you LIVE it. Like those creative types who just start seeing everything in terms of their job. VFX guys are notorious for this. They always notice interesting textures and such and thinking about how they'd replicate it, or how a sample could be used. So an ice mage would just casually know what the temperature is but possibly not even through a magic sense, but just from observing his surroundings. One of the most interesting thigns about mages is what they DON'T do with magic, but is related to it.

>>81836286
Arcane magic uses energy. Structures built from it produce effects and do the job.
Divine magic works directly with the mind. Its user observes how the world influences his mind to know the world. Relies on waves of change produced by the flow of his mind to affect the world.
Divine magic has insane stat requirements a regular mortal can't meet. A practitioner can make a contract with someone who meets the requirements. Or get a mutation that provides mental interface for certain schools of divine magic.
Arcane magic is easier to interrupt. Block the path of energy, and it fails. Divine magic can produce the same effect through many different nonuniform paths, so it can only be blocked by making the effect impossible with your own divine magic.
There are different types of energy an arcane mage can use and many ways to unlock them.
Black magic relies on deception. It uses symbols, words and gestures to plant suggestions in the mind of a victim. It is the least magical. But can be powerful.

>>81838104
Demonic magic is the evolution of black magic, when it affects the mind so strongly its target can develop the ability to cast certain divine spells.
Alchemy can work with energies its user doesn't have the ability to control.

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>>81838015
DnD can't limit magic, magic is the only reliable way to do fucking ANYTHING in DnD. That's why 3/4ths of the classes use it. If DnD limited magic, everyone would see how shitty it's ACTUAL GAME MECHANICS are and how much they fall apart when players can't just cheat-code their way around them with spells.

>>81838302
A caster can bind things with magic, a fighter can conquer them, no?

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>>81836286
>How do you make arcane style magic feel different than theurgy versus stuff like psionics?
While it may be subtle in the game rules of D&D, there is already a large difference in how they call upon their magic. Arcane casters require weird hand gestures, strange esoteric sayings, and specific materials held in their hand which get burnt up in use. Think Dr Strange and his sorcery, large hand movements, strange names, and odd finger gestures with glowing sparks of magical essence being pulled and twisted and shaped into a spell.

Divine casters don't use material components, substituting instead a divine focus, a holy symbol. This brings to mind that divine miracles are not esoteric gestures and strange language, but prayers and holy poses, brandishing their holy symbol and calling on their gods power. Holy light, angelic choirs, radiant glows in silver, gold, and your dieties favorite color, the scents of sacred flowers and incense.

Psionics and psychic magic are neither of these. It is purely of the mind, requiring elements of thought and emotion to power its magic and alter reality. Its manifestation in strange coronas of odd color, flashes of light and color in the eyes, rippling semi-invisible waves, among other strange phenomena. Many of the phenomena are colored in ways reminiscent of nuclear radiation and its glows such as Cherenkov blue, radium green, ionized blue and violet and red, among others.

Adding in primal magic for things like 4e and PF2e, where casting primal spells is mostly somatic and verbal components, gestures and words. Obviously, these are signs and prayers and thanks to the various spirits and elementals of nature that give their magic to the druid and ranger and other such primal classes. Manifesting as subtle changes in the environment, a rustle of bushes, a subtle breeze, a change in scent but only for a second. The signs and sigils of the magic glowing of verdant colors.

>>81836286
There is an objective answer, though; if you make the powers different, they will be different. There is nothing subjective or biased about that statement.

>>81838334
Not when what's being conquered has damage type resistance to the fighter's weapon and/or general resistance/immunity to weapons.

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>>81836286
Well, I like the idea of the different approaches to magic all just being different ways of using the same thing, with each type having different strengths and weaknesses. What do you think about that?

>>81836448
Which one is which again? Please elaborate anon.

Just switch the colors on your LED strips accordingly

>>81836286
I legitimately don't understand separating magic into different "schools" or whatever, maybe just differentiate slightly in method to get similar or the same results but arbitrarily splitting up magic, divine magic, psionics, black magic, and whatever else just seems like an excuse either to bloat a game mechanically or restrict magic users.
I also don't know the difference between regular magic and psionics so I may just be a retard.

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>>81836286
just read Spheres of Power, please

I like how the Soul series approach the origin of each kind of magic.
Miracles comes from the faith in the gods.
Sorceries comes from the understanding of magic and it's bare nature
Pyromancies comes from learning about the Flame of Chaos
You also has the Dark version of said schools, but they are just the original element touched by the Abyss.

>>81836286
This is an important one >>81838015 since when you have wizards that cast spells to read minds or lift things with telekinesis, it makes you question what the point of having psionic as a separate thing is.

>>81847131
When you do this we normal magic, your target can dodge and there are energy lines that can be interrupted. Also reading minds with normal magic requires a very complex spell for even limited reading. However, normal mages can freely learn and modify spells. Mental magic can't be dodged or intercepted, but is impossible to learn with normal stats. Different classes can be created based on how these abilities are acquired. Clerics have to ask gods for help, but they would only help when it furthers their agenda. Psionics are mutant born with an ability, but they only get 1-2 mental spell and their skills are just different ways to use it. Warlocks can have different deals.

>>81848055
Or, you simply don't give normal magic those abilities. There's nothing that says a wizard needs to be able to read minds.

>>81838302
>pic
Based. Magic should be the be all end all

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>>81836286
I've been working on a setting where everything has a spirit representing its true essence, a bit like a mix between Shintoism and Platonic ideals, with the smaller the thing that the spirit represents, the weaker it is, with most weaker spirits being non sapient (for instance, only the largest and oldest, or at least otherwise significant, trees would have a sapient spirit, just for starters).

I was thinking that magic would involve manipulating this spiritual underlayer of reality to achieve a supernatural effect. It would have started out as just trying to do things to get the attention of powerful spirits in certain ways, which would eventually evolve into directly making deals of mutual benefit with spirits, like offering something to the spirit of some fields to help ensure a plentiful harvest. Then someone would eventually find a way to directly manipulate spiritual energies through arcane means and rituals, getting an effect without a middleman (it probably helps if one has some spirit ancestry, since more powerful spirits can take on truly physical forms separate from their source, and I'm certain that the first to use magic this way had a spirit as a parent). The third method I was thinking of would have someone either merge with and/or consume a spirit via either a particular deal or a ritual, effectively making them part spirit and giving them some of their powers. What do you think? Can you think of any other ways to use magic that are distinct from what I already said, or any pros/cons to the three methods I listed above, please? My best ideas for limitations ATM are that deals can be exact-worded, rituals can take a lot of time and special components for big things, and spirits shunning those who consume them instead of just eating their connected objects like what happens in nature (along with having trouble lying, since spirits inherently have little ability to directly lie in most cases).

>>81848180
But muh realism. We live in a world where every tool can be used for every job, if you have enough stats.
Anyway, you can just limit what types of energy a mage can control. They could be unlockable through mutation and deals like divine magic. But since every type of energy can be used for countless things, arcane mages would have more flexibility.

>>81848249
>find a way to directly manipulate spiritual energies
Real world shamans can ask spirits to rebuild their nervous system. If the spirit is powerful, you can get some abilities. The famous initiation ritual where spirits consume your flesh and you get reborn. Also being unnatural makes seeing spirits easier. Spirits of complex things, like a land or a planet, are harder to perceive.

>>81848818
Again, nothing about magic needs to function in that way.
But also, the fact that arcane mages wouldn't have access to certain abilities associated with psychic powers doesn't mean arcane mages wouldn't still be flexible spellcasters. There are plenty of abilities you can give a wizard that don't require them to be able to bend spoons or levitate.

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>>81836286
Why does D&D have Sorcerers discriminated against like X-Men again? It seems like shitty worldbuilding that wizards are fine but sorcerers aren't. Heck, aren't Warlocks of all classes treated better than them?

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>>81850977
DnDogshit and Dumpster-Fire Worldbuilding. Name a more iconic duo.

>>81836286
first decide, why they need to be differentiated.
second, decide what roles each plays in the world.
third(most important), decide what limits each has
fourth decide what strengths each has
fifth decide on areas of overlap, and if that overlap is differentiated, either by method or effect.
sixth, devise how these magic systems fit into your setting
seventh, decide how your setting and its inhabitants react to each magic system
congrats, you now have magic styles that are, and therefore feel different.

>>81850977
They have problems controlling their power. And they're treated better than warlocks in most settings.

The only time I have felt that D&D facilitated magic being unique is Pathfinder's 3rd party system Spheres of Powers.

Casting Traditions allow you to create a very specific way a particular group casts spells, making them only able to do it with certain materials or with certain skills or in certain areas and more. I now only do SoP campaigns and always require some casting drawbacks to make campaigns flavorful.

In my current I have given everyone Material Casting, with the material being the organs of varieties of deep sea creatures, and the city the party is it is entirely centered around the industry of killing and processing these creatures.

>>81851944
>with the material being the organs of varieties of deep sea creatures
How did anyone ever discover this magic?

>>81851944
I tried a Spheres of Might game before the GM cancelled it and I was really impressed with how much they managed to achieve within a D&D framework. Champions of Spheres really is a cool and flavourful system.
>>81853372
NTA but Whales beach themselves, giant squid wash up on shore. Fishermen find spooky things.

>>81857072
Didn't like some of the Might Spheres' theming. Barroom brawling is so specific I think it should be created as a tradition, not an underlying mechanic.
If it were me I'd have folded drunkenness into raging as a generally irrational state.
Improvised weapons could be an open hand thing.

>>81850977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUTU-GnxVuM

It's not every Sorcerer, but the horror stories of children with supernatural, terrible, powers at their disposal and only youth's wisdom to guide their hand are more than enough to offer reason to be wary of Sorcery.

>>81851944
>>81853372
What >>81857072 said, the practice was discovered in ancient times. People are the organs of beaches sea creatures and casted magic accidentally. The organs are so magically active that a layman can use magic if he has access to them, the only limiting factor is the supply.

In the setting until the industrial revolution about 30 years prior there wasn't enough magic for anyone but the ultrarich (Nobility) to do magic due to the prohibitive cost. The city the game is centered around is, due to rare weather events, the one of the only places in the world where industrial level killing of these creatures in really possible.

In the rest of the world magic has exploded in usage due to this city supplying them. Magic has seen widespread military usage for the first time and magical research has accelerated. In the city the organs are so common that lowly gangsters and the urban poor can get their hands on a little bit of it if they put their mind to it.

The city is literally bursting at the seams with magic and is barely held together because now anyone who puts their mind to it has the power to magically kill one another.

>>81857180
>>81857072
I will agree, not all the themeing is great and a lot is overly specific. Some of it needs rebalancing. Overall however it accomplishes far more in terms of balance and giving individual characters flavor than D&D does.

Two spellcasters of the same class, and even the same sphere, can feel very different. As an example:
>Incanter 1
Enhancement Sphere specialized in bodily talents, casts by causing himself to bleed and take damage, slowly draining his own lifeforce to cause harm or buss his allies.
>Incanter 2
Enhancement Sphere specialized in object enhancement, casts using intricate knowledge of clockwork and drawing sigils in the air to animate objects and enhance his allies weapons.

>>81836286
I don’t know if it makes it feel different, but I describe arcane magic in terms of its nearest real-life analogue, which is “arbitrary code execution” in video games.

The way that your movements, words, and thoughts affect reality magically are exactly like how people move about, eat stuff with yoshi ect to glitch straight from the first level of mario world to the end credits.

>>81857252
Tradition should replace class all together.
In fact the whole thing should be its own game.

>>81857453
> In fact the whole thing should be its own game.
I'd love to see what they could make if they weren't constrained by jank D&Disms like AC and feat design.
>replace classes with traditions
The classes they have are actually some of the best I've seen because they're more like larger archetypes than the Fighting-game-esque "Choose your Fighter!"

>>81836286
Did it start with D&D? I thought it was always spell slots, with the exception of 4e's juiceboxes. I don't think they ever made distinctions between their powers.

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>>81836286
What do you guys think of magic based off of the Four Fundamental Forces and similar shit, like dark matter?

>>81850977
Because Sorcerers were added late 2nd edition (same with Warlocks but no one remembers that), so writers had to come up with a reason why they weren't all over the place.
Meanwhile Ed Greenwood has said that if he believed in writing retcons he would have retconned most wizards into sorcerers and made wizards themselves actually super rare and reclusive folk to explain why they're not the most common class despite the amount of power they have (or can eventually have).

>>81836286
Fantasy Craft has an interesting take on the arcane vs. divine magic split: Rather than being a question of different spell lists, it's all about how the spells are acquired and used.

Arcane magic works on a pool of spell points, and requires a Spellcasting skill check to successfully cast a spell. There's an inherent measure of uncertainty and risk, but arcane casters gain a decently broad repertoire of spells and have enough juice to let them rely heavily on their magic as a primary tool in most situations.

Divine magic, on the other hand, works on the basis of Paths, themed collections of benefits granted by the caster's patron. These benefits include a mix of spells and other perks or abilities, with the exact proportion depending on the Path. Divine casters get a much narrower selection of spells, and each of their spells can only be used once per scene, but they get much earlier access to high-level spells and their spells always work. A divine caster won't be slinging spells turn after turn like an arcane caster does, but when necessary they can call down quite impressive miracles, and they have other more general blessings outside of spells that help them out in other ways.

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>>81836286
Why would anyone become a warlock over being a cleric or wizard? What's the appeal?

>>81858916
Shit because it's obvious already there are two forces at best, and it's probably going to turn out to be just one.

>>81864094
In DnD? It's the only class that has a tie to the world and a narrative hook. The other casters have no narrative incentive or interaction with their classes progression.

Uh, I mean, E L D R I T C H B L A S T

>>81864094
Less strength, more freedom.

>>81866004
>narrative incentive or interaction with their classes progression.
Surely you’re exaggerating. And if you aren’t, how would you fix the other classes?

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>>81866691
How much wiggle room 'should' clerics have with their powers? Also, how do warlocks have more "freedom" than wizards?

>>81851890

Which is insane because they don't accidentally hex or shoot bolts of force at people. They have full control over it. They always do it with purpose and malice of forethought, unlike those Sorcerers.

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>>81836286
What do you think of D&D's schools of arcane magic? Would you split or merge any, or change them in general?

>>81875897
I would combine necromancy and conjuration, but move all the necromancy healing to abjuration.
Then combine illusion and enchantment.
Then move divination into transmutation.
And finally make a new school of artifice.
>That's just the elder scrolls
Yes.jpg
Schools should be organized based on what they accomplish. Does it fuck with the mind? It all belongs in the same school. Does it summon something, be it an elemental, a weapon, or a ghost to puppet a skeleton? It all belongs in the same school.
You should be able to summarize a school with a single verb.

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>>81836286
Do you prefer necromancy to fall under arcane magic, or do you like it as its own thing entirely, and why?

>>81877896
I don't like the idea of Necromancy being its own type of magic because using necromancy alone seems dumb af (imo). Mastering the dead is an extremely powerful magic so it would appear ridiculous to be able to do this but nothing else idk if you see what I mean... like "yeah I can raise the dead but I can't light a candle"

>>81866004
You say that like it's a problem, wizards can make their own narrative incentive just fine.

>>81877147
But necromancy works with the absence of things, why conjuration makes them present. They're very different, things they create have opposing tendencies.

>>81877147
>Schools should be organized based on what they accomplish.
when every technique is easy to learn

>>81870376
Warlocks can use their spell whenever and however they want, no energy limit. Clerics can only bother their deity several times a day, and only when they act in accordance with its will. No wiggle room, gods aren't idiots. Some gods will allow you heal your loved ones, but that's all.

Played a game where magic was bound by laws (like, humans wrote these laws them selves) restricting magic users from learning spells outside their perview. Magic-resistant knights travel the lands to ensure people keep to these laws.

Nothing prevents people from learning any magic from any school. But then you would become a lawbreaker. With the death penalty.

>>81878605
Why restrict magic like that, what are they trying to stop? What are the schools, and how do they know if you break the law? How are the laws created?

Also, what system was this?

>>81878536
>Some gods will allow you heal your loved ones
Which gods are those?

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>>81877147
It should only be based on what they can accomplish if the distinction is arbitrary and human made.
If the distinction is due to branching magic traditions, then there should probably be some convergent evolution. Both a muscle manipulator and a mind controller may be able to root their enemy in place for a while.

>>81878520
>when every technique is easy to learn
You lost us.

>>81884012
>Both a muscle manipulator and a mind controller may be able to root their enemy in place for a while.
That's when you start getting into AD&D.
If you ever want to see ridiculous amounts of spells looking into the wizard spell compendium for AD&D.
It's 4 volumes of endless amounts of redundant spells because each school finds different ways to do things that other schools can do (though a conjured fireball tends to do less damage and cost a higher spell slot than an invoked fireball, to represent the difference between just creating a flame on someone and channeling your raw magical might into searing destruction).

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>>81878128
Yeah, besides being undead yourself, why would one be so hyperfocused in ability?

>>81838302
>OP specifically asks for advice for systems that aren't D&D
>this dumb Irishman comes in to soapbox

>>81850977
Pretty sure that's no longer lore as of 5e, but then again I stopped giving a shit about the official settings in 3rd

However, 5e mechanics justify it:
If we take wild magic sorcerer as the default, and they expend a single spell slot per day, they'll cause an extremely destructive effect inadvertently about twice per year. Making them hide their powers is understandable.

>>81891291
>Making them hide their powers is understandable.
So there’s no way to prevent these destructive outbursts of power?

>>81891887
If we use the foolish assumption of mechanics == fluff, then yes, the only way to avoid this is for them to not use any magic larger than a cantrip.

I assume a character with potential but serious training to avoid this, would no longer be a sorcerer, but probably a wizard instead. Or they would be a sorcerer that switches to another bloodline that doesn't just explode.

>>81890121
You can control everything you destroy? And already destroyed things are harder to destroy again. If you want to conquer a country but don't have an army, necromancy seems like a good choice.

>>81892165
Assuming that you don't get damned for it. That's the big question.

>>81836286
Are you >>81891233? Can you post, uh, moar?

>>81838302
Why is it purple in the chart and blue in the legend?

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>>81836286
What about elemental magic, do you prefer each one element to be a singular discipline, have them be all grouped together under one school of magic, or somewhere in-between?

>>81858118
>4e's juiceboxes.
Their what? I never did 4e.

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>>81836286
The way I see it is Arcane magic uses special knowledge that takes years of study to do even the most basic of things (unless you are a sorcerer in which case you are that guy who never shows up for class but aces the test in half the time without studying), Divine magic is calling on the power of a god to preform magic on your behalf, nature magic is tapping into the the power of life itself and bardic magic is a facet of arcana but instead of using specialized knowledge it uses music and dance to focus it's power.

>>81899735
>bardic magic is a facet of arcana but instead of using specialized knowledge it uses music and dance to focus it's power
I've always disliked this because it confines bards to being performance artists. I would prefer to consider bardic magic as using emotion/willpower to focus it's power, because that way you can justify both music and art (things that can embody emotion) as well as skilled oration/honeyed words (designed to manipulate the thoughts/feelings those who hear them).

>>81899536
Some guy who never played 4e has been trying to make a forced meme about it.
That said, what I think he's actually referring to is the fact that 4e did actually keyword different classes into different power sources. So Clerics and Paladins had an actual Divine power source, Wizards and Warlocks had Arcane, Druids and Barbarians had Primal, etc.

Prior to that there was still implications of it in older editions, like how Arcane spell failure made Arcane spellcasting distinct from divine spellcasting via whether or not armor made it have a chance to not work. 4e seperated things out further, and had plenty of feats and features that tied into the idea of different power sources like that, but I think the only really new aspect was having Primal be a separate thing from Divine, since Druids had always been sort of folded in with Clerics for the general way they worked, aside from not using metal armor or things like that.

The general divide between arcane and divine magic has been around since very early editions though, even if it wasn't as heavily codified or didn't use those specific terms. D&D has always been a game where a priest and a magic user were different things.

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>>81899871
Well, I suppose you could say that The Fine Arts are a branch of arcane magic but not specifically arcane and that is bardic magic, a split (it's suppose to be meticulous and controlled or it's wrong) and (if it's simple but works it isn't stupid) or something like that but a long time ago so that they two types of magic have diverged enough for it to make sense that they are diffrent types of magic.

>>81866004
Oh please, people loved making sorcs this way because they were the chosen dark one class before warlocks. Warlocks just so happen to have a much stronger thematic to them.

The best Warlocks are the dutiful ones who know what they're doing, and don't ask questions.

>>81900001
And then Pathfinder 2E took this further, and split Occult off Arcane magic (and made Bard the spontaneous Occ spellcaster).
It's pretty neat. You have four sources, yet eight classic schools.

>>81836339
Good advice.

>>81900001
Ah, thanks for explaining. Why did they do 4e that way?

>>81836339
>never speaks
Literally why?

>>81899536
Every class uses the same resource despite the fluff insisting they're from different sources. At will, x per encounter, and y per day. Same boring mechanic with slightly different flavor, like how juiceboxes are all bland and watery with the slightest essence of what flavor they're labeled with. Hence, "4e's juiceboxes."
>>81900001
It's not a forced meme if it describes the thing in an apt manner.

>>81838334
What you said was retarded with no substance, but the bear shits in the woods, no?

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>>81836286
I personally dislike the idea that psionics has to be distinct from "magic" as this is primarily based off of visuals.

If I wanted to created my own D&D knock off I would make psionics basically a default option of wizards and roll in shit like illusion and what not under it and sprinkle in the image of things like Dark Soul's spells like the Soul spells and the crystal shit for high end.

So basically, imagine Jace and Big Hat Logan were thrown into a blender

>>81905314
>Big Hat Logan
I have no idea who that is.

>>81905314
That's completely missing the fundamental difference between psionics and arcane magic.

>>81905314
OP literally said making magic feel different; it's never been about visuals.

>>81908028
>completely missing the fundamental difference between psionics and arcane magic.
And that difference is?

>>81910904
Mages build structures out of energy. Psyonics simply change the shape of their mind.

>>81911218
Based on what? A given settings interpretation? When did this become a universal standard?

>>81908959
It is all about visuals. You take the word psychic and it can have different meanings based on the genre its used in. If it's a horror genre the psychic communicates with ghosts, if it's sci-fi then something something new age stuff and technology

>>81911309
>When did this become a universal standard?
Always has been.

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>>81911489

>>81911218
Wrong.

>>81911881
>Wrong.
What’s the right answer then?

>>81913649
Psionics isn't about changing mind per se, but changing with the mind.

>>81913695
>but changing with the mind.
So making the mind strong enough to change reality basically?

>>81911309
Learn how to read.

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>>81836286
What should be the primary domains of nature magic?

>>81913695
How does the mind change reality? Every thought has a physical event corresponding to it. These events create waves of change. By consciously controlling these waves, the mind can change reality.
How does the mind know reality? Reality affects its flow. By analyzing the distortions in its flow, the mind can know the world. Parts of the mind naturally connected to sensory organs are easier to interpret, but the rest of the them don't have a magic shield either.
So, psionics is the art of working with the shape of the mind. Observe it to know the world, change it to control the world.

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>>81836286
in my mind, psionics and shit like 'chi' aren't magic. they are natural the same way a dragon breathing fire and flying around isn't magic.

magic is the manipulation of reality, it is by definition unnatural. even druidic magic.

>>81921217
Everything that is possible, is natural. Mana is but a type of chi. If your mages use mind, they're gods/psionics. If your mages use energy constructs, they're arcane mages. If they use mind to create energy constructs, they're... weird psionics I think.

>>81922211
i'm just saying DnD differentiates between spells and spell-like abilities for a reason.

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>>81921217
>it is by definition unnatural. even druidic magic.
The local druid guild would like to have a word with you...

>>81919638
Arcanists separate everything into elements. Druids should select some natural phenomenon. Observe its cycles. Bond with it.

By shaping their own spirit to resemble the spirit of a phenomenon, they make it capable of knowing, and doing, what the spirit of the phenomenon knows and does.

>>81925038
Shamans work with many spirits. Druids specialize on one powerful spirit. This could be be used to differentiate them.

>>81921121
Not necessarily, in no small reason due to inherent philosophical conundrum, provided one interprets change of shape as an action more significant in regards to one's being.
Provided correct approaches, it's possible to remain comparatively unchanged.
But this kind of mathematical cheesewack is easier to imagine.

>>81922211
They're concepts from different places, and should be treated as such, it would help avoiding redundancy.
Chi is life energy.
Mana is influence, pertaining to sex and violence as primary propagators, IIRC.
Wizards in dnd, also IIRC, are using something called the veil, which would make them sophisticated operators.

>>81925137
I exist because I experience existence. To make me experience existence, something has to change. The thing that changes is the shape of my mind.

Psionics change and observe things merely by existing. It rely on interconnectedness.

>>81925349
Or you exist irregardless of whether or not you experience existence, and there's some other weird parameter that allows to prevent change, or structures work in layers.
That aside, psion isn't necessarily directly connected or interconnected. Consider, if thoughts disrupt reality, one can't afford to think freely.

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>>81925063
>Shamans work with many spirits. Druids specialize on one powerful spirit.
Where's that distinction come from?

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>>81910904
Magic is an externally sourced power, whereas Psionics is an internally sourced one. "b-b-b-but sorcerers have internal power how is this different?!" Sorcerers are born with access to magic but they are tapping into an external power without needing to understand the fundamental rules and structure of magic. Wizards need to learn these rules to manipulate magic.

Psionicists tap into themselves to access their own reservoir of power that originates from their own mind. There is no wizard equivalent of a Psionicist. Yeah, Magic and Psionics have crossover effects, but of course they are going to from a mechanical standpoint. Telekinesis, Mind Reading, Levitation, Flight, Manipulation of energy, etc.

>>81930294
An idea? It shouldn't necessary be one.

>>81930485
Magic isn't external, it's a broad term, externality or internality of energy operation is just a detail here.
Likewise, a direct equivalent of psionics users is a wizard, just like that.

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>>81930977
If we're talking the most reductionist version of magic, then you'd be correct. The most common form of magic in rpg's is the external weave, which is what I was speaking to.

>>81931683
The weave is in dnd as well, right?

>>81931708
That's what dnd calls it, yeah. In most every fantasy setting magic is just another set of laws in reality on top of physics, time, etc. Wizards incant, gesture, perform ritual and whatnot to interact with that layer to produce magical effects as dictated by those laws.

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>>81836286
How specialized do you like magic to be?

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>>81903139

From off the top of my head... psioncs require a large amount of brain power, and the brain repurposes certain parts of the brain for it, one of these areas are used for speaking.

>>81938418
Wouldn’t that mean that they can’t understand speech as well?

>>81940550
Not necessary. Describing paths to knowledge with words and decoding words to build knowledge are two different task with their own collections of algorithms.

>>81941206
You would think that they're closely related though, right? Wait, are you talking specifically about speech or writing as well?

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>>81938418
What are the other areas?

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>>81925063
I feel like, if you look into actual historical druids, they're more similar to wizards than anything else.
In order to become a druid you had to study 8 years as a bard, acquiring wisdom about the material world, and then 8 years as an ovate, acquiring knowledge about the spirit world.
Druids don't wield words of power or shape the world by their will, they are just extremely wise. This manifests in being able to brew medicinal potions and interpret the future from omens all around us.

>>81836286
Whatever your fluff, the mechanics must represent and support it, otherwise it will be forgotten. I repeat, the mechanics must match the lore, or it is irrelevant. What does that look like?

Arcane magic draws on the primordial powers of chaos, bending it to the users will. Mechanically? Significant chance of misfire which causes issues such as exploding, mutation, forgetting spells, or if you're lucky it is just a close one. Can cast over your mana/spell slots/MD, but now there is a very significant risk, like 5 in 6 chance of misfire.

Divine magic meanwhile derives from a god/Saint hearing the clerics prayers, seeing their righteous actions, their good intent and answering them. Clerics know not to be frivolous with their prayers, so how do mechanics support this? Unlimited potential castings, but each time they pray for intercession, roll a die, if they succeed it works. If it fails, the die steps up and the failure range increases, and so on until d100 then a crisis of faith. Spells won't ever backfire on them like arcane magic. Spells obviously won't work to the benefit of an enemy of order. So, if a cleric is in a party with a fighter, and the fighter intends to murder an innocent, beyond just moralising him, the cleric can say "If you do that, you will be excommunicated. Separated from the church, the mercies of heaven cannot aid you". Aka no healing for you.

Make the mechanics support what you're going for! Your vision may look different to mine, awesome, just make your rules support your vision.

Magic shouldnt be available to PCs, but it should exist.

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>>81836286
What’s the cut-off point between a golem and a robot in your opinion? Can a robot be powered by magic, or does any magic make it a golem? Or does it take a magical intelligence to define a golem?

>>81951093
not OP but for me, a robot has moving parts and a golem is basically an animated doll.

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>>81951203
So in your opinion, a robot is propelled mechanically, but a golem magically?

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>>81952013
pretty much

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>>81952260
Alright, what about if the motile power is mechanical but the source of energy for the robot is magical? Like, electricity from a magic crystal shit.

>>81954316
Golems are magical constructs, Robots are non-magical constructs.

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>>81836286
I was gonna make a thread for this, but I suppose I'll ask here, since it seems to be the current "magic system thread."

So I'm working on a setting for a story that's focused on people with the ability to "Dreamwalk." It's urban fantasy with a very Persona/TWEWY sorta vibe. Granted, when I say "Dream World" I'm also making heavy reference to Lovecraft's conceptualization of the idea, which I'm drawing influence from.

Anyway, to cut things short, I'm mulling over what to do for the power system for this manga.

My initial idea is to base it off the Enneagram as personality archetypes can be very useful for writing characters, and tying that to the power system can be unique. It can be something like HxH's Nen categorization where the Hatsu was also based on personality. It also seems to work flavorwise, to take influence from Jung, his archetypes and the following interpretation of that in psychology for a story themed around dreams, and nightmares and such. The exploration of the sub conscious just goes hand-in-hand with anything dream related,

But I am open to anything really. I think the one thing I certainly wouldn't do, is Jojo stands, since then it would be too much like persona, and this is something I intend to show an editor. If you could point me toward anything you think I should look into for inspiration, I'd appreciate it.

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>>81957813
So, is there any Tarot and shit like in Persona?

>>81960752
Yes. Very much so. Most of the cards in the game are tarot cards and the MCs all have one that represents them.

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>>81960778
More details please. What else can you tell us?

>>81960752
I’m the original poster. Persona has Tarot, yeah. My idea. No.

>>81964097
I wanted to add. What I’m trying to do is figure out limiting factors to the power, because when a lot of your fighting takes place in the Dreamworld, and your power is literally the power of Dreams, then it suddenly seems like you could do literally anything, which makes for a nice imaginative upper limit, but I need to be able to differentiate what different characters can do, and do it in a unique way.

Some examples would be the aforementioned Jojo stands, or JJK’s Domain Expansions. Both of which would have been good, but they’ve already been done so I gotta think of something else. I do know for a fact that tying it to your subconscious is an excellent way to really restrict what each character can do to a unique flavor, which is part of what makes the Enneagram so appealing of a categorical system.

>>81965848
Alright, can you still us more about your idea please? It sounds pretty based.

>>81965923
Maybe the fact that you know that you can’t do that while awake is a factor? Psychological limitations?

>>81960752
>>81964097
>>81966906
>>81969307

This poster has no genuine interest in your concepts, he is only responding to keep the thread on life support. Notice how each post was three or four hours after the last one, with the exception of >>81966906 which is right after /tg/'s peak activity (see https://4stats.io/ ) where a post would have more quickly fallen to the bottom. Also notice how this thread is riddled with similar questions that were similarly timed.

>>81838302
This

>>81965848
Alright, thanks for sharing this. Keep up the good work.

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>>81932119
What are some of the settings that are exceptions?

>>81971011
>This
Based opinion anon.