>>81155030
so true lmao

>>81155030
yawn. Just kill the gnome. Any extensive system of meta currency is aids. At least hp bloat is consistant in that a level 16 worm will also survive in the lava, essentially making it anime rules. Consistency trumps reality.

Of course, again, the best option would just be auto death or something actually happening to save them instead of mechanizing fate itself.

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>>81155192
>essentially making it anime rules
person with trash opinion comparing things in terms of anime, damn what a coincidence

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>>81155030
how is "the fates aligned in this moment for some reason" a substantial upgrade over "you're just that tough for some reason"? If anything, in terms of narrative/storytelling, doesn't it feel cheaper if the hero gets bailed out by whimsical forces, rather than pulling himself up by his own bootstraps?

It's even sillier than the classic headcanoning of HP as luck for vidya protagonists like Nathan Drake who have no business tanking that many bullets, because at least those keep the benefits of health points and damage numbers leading to predictable/fair results for death and injuries.

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>>81155346
>T. Needs the universe itself to save him and has a get out of jail free mechanic to do it by.
Your letter of the law might not be hp bloat, but the spirit in your law truly is. Try not to jump in lava next time buddy, dont expect to expend a benny for god himself to save you.

>>81155030
If your game ever allows a PC to go over 20 HP outside of buffs like magic or armor you are playing a bad system.

>>81155575
if you're opinion is that characters should have neither tremendous inexplicable HP or "get out of jail free cards"
that's a perfectly respectable opinion, but not pertinent to the discussion, as the topic is the best way to represent heroic characters who survive deadly situations

>>81155030
The Thad combining the two, meaning that instead of dipping into lava, the Gnome illusionist lands on a rock and takes the appropriate fire damage from convection.

>>81155030
Is this even controversial? I mean besides with brainlets.

HP is plot armor.

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>>81155811
that's how I do it, your HP goes up only 1 point per level, but you also have a few meta points to not die if shit really goes down. but they don't come back

>>81155620
Depends if it's trying to portray deities or anime protagonists or superheroes or something. If you average soldier in a somewhat-realistic world can survive falling into lava or being hit with a tank cannon, either the system has gone wrong or you have misunderstood the nature of your setting.

>>81155809
Calling the thread topic stupid is relevant to the thread topic. My two cents though is that HP is best for heroism because like >>81155192 wisely
observes it turns everything into anime rules.

>>81155868
That's how I do it in my system. Hirelings and followers have 10 HP plus one per point of stamina. Faction leaders get 20 (for plot armour), and two point per point of stamina. A level-up happens once per in-game 'year' that the protagonists survive and stay in-charge, to a maximum of Level 5, and these level-ups are accompanied by another 10+stamina HP...

Which, since there aren't huge stat increases otherwise, means a couple lucky commoners with pitchforks PROBABLY won't kill your Level 5 faction leader in one or two turns, but you can't count on it, and a mob of them for sure will.

>>81155979
This is basically how most editions of D&D work. A level 20 Fighter is vulnerable to 2000 goblins. The sheer weight of opportunity to attack him will eventually kill him.

But level 20 Fighters are pseudodeific beings who wield world-shaking prowess. So they can do shit like cleave an entire army of goblins, in theory.

>>81155947
>anime rules
What the fuck is that even supposed to mean?

>>81156091
If you want something enough and train like hell, you can become super humanly powerful and durable and surpass normal natural limits.

Like a shounen protagonist, or a bodhisattva.

>>81156071
The problem with 5e at least is in order for the fighter be able to keep up with a level 20 Wizard’s spells he basically has to be an anime hero that can cut down hundreds of enemies without breaking a sweat. Probably why a lot of people say level 3-10 are the most fun.

>>81156135
So DBZ is the only anime you're aware of? Okay.

>>81156091
It’s just referring to the over the top ridiculous tropes of anime combat. Things like slashing someone faster than the eye can see, cutting down 5 people in an instant, superhuman feats of strength and agility. Just the over the top kind of stuff that shows up in the average anime fight scene.

>>81156160
That’s not a trope exclusive to DBZ but ok. Are you just butthurt that he referenced the most well known anime? Not everyone is a weeb like you.

>>81156160
That's most shonen anime, my dude, to varying degrees.

>Believe in it real hard, put yourself through a grueling training regimen, maybe have a divine/demonic blessing to help get you started or amplify results, and you too can be THE VERY BEST!
>If that doesn't work, have a psychological break and develop a superpowered transformed state that DOES have that great and terrible resolve


Naruto
Gurren Lagann
One Punch Man
My Hero Academia
Pokemon (Ash's Pikachu)
Tokyo Ghoul
Shamn King
Soul Eater
Bleach

>>81156270
This lol, entire theme of the first like 400 episodes of Naruto is that hard work beats talent lol. It’s like the most common trope in Shonen.

>>81156315
>>81156270
And then it turns out that Naruto's talent was the only thing that mattered and the hard work was irrelevant lmao

>>81156468
That’s because the creator was already burnt out and wanted the series to end but it was such a money maker that he was kinda forced into continuing it. The last 200 episodes there’s just a noticeable dip in writing quality.

>>81156157
This is a common D&D problem. Most other fantasy games handily avoid it. I would recommend not playing D&D.

>>81155192
>essentially making it anime rules

And unless it's meant to be a low fantasy setting, that's fun.

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>>81155947
>>81156135
>high hp is like anime
so bad?

>>81155030
>The virgin narrative meta currency
"Fine, the fates align, disallowing this hero from perishing an untimely death - you land upon a huge rock floating within the lava, narrowly saving you from certain death. Now will you stop crying? You're getting fluids all over my battlemat."
>The chad hp bloat
"yeah your gnome illusionist falls into the lava but doesn't burn to death because he's really tough."

>>81156468
This. Naruto is fucking trash and shits on its own storyline.
>>81156580
He wanted it to end so badly he wrote a second manga about Narutos child Boruto,and the entire story is cyclical.

>>81155030
>>virgin HP bloat
You just suck at describing combat. Falling into lava does not, as some people believe, instantly turn you into ash, and an entire combat round is six seconds. A better description would be:
>>your gnome illusionist takes a fall into the lava, the merciless heat of it burning his arms and shoulders severely. YOu must think quickly- how will you escape the lava before you perish?

>>81156468
Rock Lee was the true protagonist the whole time.

>>81156868
Too bad he chokes

>>81156830
Boruto wasn't written by the original creator until recently. He wanted out so badly that he let his assistants have the rights to make a sequel. They only just brought him back a couple months ago to try and fix the even worse story they shit out.

>>81156865
Why does the gnome illusionist have so many meat points? A barbarian, maybe. But nothing in the fiction of the game gives any reason why a wizard would be tougher than a regular person
"HP isn't meat points"
well then you just have Fate points that are treated exactly like meat points for 99% of the game

>>81155979
This sounds like absolute shit

>>81156580
But it didn't matter the whole time. Ever since the beginning almost every time naruto was in trouble he just pulls the fox demon out of his ass and wins.
Chunin exams? Fox demon
Fight against Haku? Fox demon
Fight against gaara? Fox demon
Etc etc etc.
Naruto never actually needed to work for anything. All he needed to do was be strong enough to not get instantly fucked on and his magic puppy does the rest of the work.

>>81157185
>But nothing in the fiction of the game gives any reason why a wizard would be tougher than a regular person
Have you tried not playing dnd?

>>81157185
>so many meat points?
If he has enough hp to survive being pushed into lava in one go, he's probably spent a significant amount of time being pushed around and fighting. Knowing how to fall can turn snapping your neck into just getting winded.
Again, OP just sucks at narrating what the mechanics are giving .

>>81155192
This is the best answer I've ever seen to this tired complaint.

>>81155192
>>81155525
>butthurt Amerifat that hate fun, because Hollywood taught them the shittiest story conventions as default and they literally don't know nothing else

>>81156135
>"anime existed before cultivation"

>>81157185
>meat points
Almost had me there you sly dog

>>81158705
>he thinks Hollywood values consistency in the trash they pump out

>>81155030
Any system that allows for more than 8 hit points is inherently flawed, as that implies that people can survive more than two arrows or sword stabs.

>>81155030
>your character falls into the lava

Roll a new character

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>>81156468
That's right, talent trumps hard work, does that upset you?

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>stray arrow hits the gnome illusionist
>"An arrow strikes your gnome illusionist in the eye and burrows into his brain, killing him on the spot. Your character is dead. Put your sheet in the paper shredder and make a new character. If you don't accept the results, get the fuck out."

Lava has the density of stone and is extremely viscous. Unless your own density was currently magically increased, you couldn't "fall into it".

>>81158705
accurate

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>>81155030
>>the virgin hp bloat
>>the chad narrative meta currency

>the realism gigachad meat points
"The gnome falls in the acid pit, it takes 1d6-1 points of damage per second plus you have to roll on your health every second to avoid be permanently blinded, how many hp you have? 10? Ok remember to roll on health each time you go down that amount to see if you remain conscious. At 50 points of damage you're automatic dead and at 100 your body is dissolved... oh since you're probably horribly disfigured i'll have to lower your appearance by two or three levels."

>>81156865
the lava would sear his lungs and render him unconcious from shock instantly in real life.

>>81164451
But consider:
>The ultimate chad chunky-salsa woundlist
"The gnome falls in the acid pit, add an "acid burns" wound to your character sheet. You receive a penalty to appropriate checks due to pain and damaged skin, and threaten death if you receive another wound associated with this damage type."

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>>81155030
Situations like this just display the flawed nature of playing RAW or even RAI. Not even GURPS can account for all the possible situations that can unfurl, sometimes you just need to make a decision yourself in order to preserve the integrity of the story.
A proper GM would ignore all the rules and mechanics here and do what feels right. Either give the rock platform for "free" to avoid a stupid death or just kill the damn gnome. Are you ACTUALLY playing an anime campaign? Maybe then it's expected that the gnome survives through sheer force of will?
>but but rules say you take 10d4 fire damage
I AM THE RULES.

>>81158934
>he implied, while missing the whole point

>>81164602
Don't you know that playing RAW comes in direct line from people who try to "fix" broken and "broken" games, and after their homebrews failed to address the flaws, just go full circle and decide to artistically use all the rules in the most literal way, consequences be damned? RAW was always a dead-end and a pursuit in futility

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>>81155030
>play system with narrative meta currency but buff your hp so hard it becomes irrelevant
“You wade across the lava pit with little difficulty, taking 175 points of typeless, non-resistable damage in the process. Still standing? Great; you shake some leftover magma off your foot before it can fully cool and continue walking.”

>>81164685
>Play system without HP bloat or meta currency, but just talk over your GM and ignore him when he says you die.
"I wade across the lava pit with little difficulty, and shake some leftover magma off- Shut the fuck up Steven, I'm talking here. As I was saying, I shake the leftover magma off my foot and smirk in a badass way."

>>81155030
What shit system are you playing that falling into lava isn't lethal HP damage for a class that isn't completely cheesing or magically protected?

>>81164649
I don't know what truly causes people to become blind followers of RAW but your explanation makes sense. It's the option for failures, essentially. They get knocked down and never rise up again, choosing instead to dig around in other people's filth like the worms they are.
You don't have to go full freeform anarchy but "rules" of most systems are meant to be bended or even ignored in some capacity. I've played with some RAWlets and it's just miserable, especially in D&D 5e, since that system has more holes than a sinking ship. It needs a talented captain.

Did you know that you can't cast a spell that requires somatic components while holding a magic wand in your spellcasting hand, if it also doesn't require material components (which the wand qualifies for)? I do and I willfully ignore such a retarded thing. But I've met people who ENFORCE it. Forget the rules of cool and common sense, we are following logic that is most likely the result of a typo or a brainfart from the developers.

>>81155030
whom are you quoting?

>>81164602
>Not even GURPS can account for all the possible situations that can unfurl
Not true, and i'm not referring specifically to gurps here, most rulesystems are consistent enough to cover even unforethought scenarios with base broader rules.
E.g. Gurps doesn't have specific rules for action chase in the base sets (there's one in pyramid's "gurps: action exploits 2") but neither the less it has enough mechanics to serve an action chase sequence well enough: movement rules, fatigue rules and the regular contest rule.

The real problem here is that D&D has an identity issue: it's a tactic single miniature combat game? It's a narrative role play game (per day abilities and metacurrencies as inspiration)? It's a superheroic fantasy game? It's a zero to hero game? Etc... those inconsistencies make the problems as shitposted by op.

>>81164721
>denying your GM the opportunity to bail you out of your own poor decisions
“The fates align, disallowing this hero from perishing an untimely death - you land upon a huge rock floating-“
“No, I fall into the lava and die”

>>81155192
>yawn. Just kill the gnome.
I don't know what the thread is about but this is the best answer

>>81164827
I'm fucking crying. Best post in the thread.

>>81164827
This is basically the norm in our group. The usual GM is way too kind and lenient so we give him a small nudge when he falls prey to his own nature.
If one of us does something that should result in death/a harsh punishment, we will let him know if he tries to pussy out.

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>>81164886
>GM see no point in killing players at random, since there is nothing to be gained from it
>Players continuously refuse, in some inane idea that this makes for better experience to just sit around the table doing nothing for next X hours
Let me guess - you're still a student, right?

>>81165006
You don't play games.

>>81159287
based duck poster

>>81155030
You don’t sink in lava you retard. It’s not water.

>>81165098
Yes you do, and yes it is.

>>81155030
>"yeah your gnome illusionist falls into the lava but doesn't burn to death because he's really tough... for some reason"
That's an hell of a gnome illusionist then, by 3.5e standards even a 20th level gnome illusionist should have around 90 hp and a deep dive into lava would inflict around 70 points of damage in average PER ROUND. Even if he gets saved miraculously in the very round (fucking impossibile) the moment he gets out he still get extra 35 points of damage per circa 2 rounds.

>inb4 it's 5e
Sorry i don't use babby d&d but i would assume it's at least close to what i specified.

>>81165254
>70 points of damage in average PER ROUND
Don't forget the massive damage threshold, 70 points of damage = DC 35 fortitude saving throw vs insta-death PER ROUND. Even a 20th level barbarian would have just 5-10% odds of succeeding for one round.

>>81165361
>house rules

>>81155871
Ouch fuck.

>>81156135
My nigger that kind of shit FAR predates anime.

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>>81165499
>house rules
??
It's in the PHB anon

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>>81164827
>“No, I fall into the lava and die”

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>>81165254
>Even if he gets saved miraculously in the very round (fucking impossibile) the moment he gets out he still get extra 35 points of damage per circa 2 rounds.
Fuck that's a pretty horrific image of pulling the gnome out of the molten fire but he just liquefies in agony in the next few seconds

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>>81165609

>>81165609
Fucking fuck, you're a god, anon.
/thread.

>>81155030
>hp bloat
If ever there was an easy indicator that someone is a 5e retard, it has to be this.

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>>81165609
>>81165647
>>81165713
https://youtu.be/VgNyQocxoCM?t=208

>>81155192
>essentially making it anime rules
Most compelling argument against HP bloat I've ever seen.

>>81166007
>9x10^9001 hours in MS Paint

>>81166036
Yea, you ever just have a really funny idea you want to make, and then you start, but realize that you don't have the software or the know-how to do it, and that you don't want to spend an hour finetuning it, so you just give up after 5 minutes and upload the mspaint version and play it off as a joke?

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>>81155809
Please note I did state
>EXTENSIVE system of meta currency
enphasis on that first part. Something like insipration dice or what have you. Informal boons and the like dont nearly as mechanize and loose the magic and tension of an adventure. Small things that might help you survive is fine, just not reality warping itself to your will. That combined with smart GMing (giving the players heroic situations, outs when appropriate, etc) should be more than adequate enough for a party to survive without them being some immortal marionette. On the smart DM point, just say as your gnome falls twoards the lava, you see a rock floating in it. Make a dex check to try and save yourself from certain doom. You dont need metacurrenency. The dm can just give you more saves if it does not seem thematically appropriate for the character to die. and if they keep failing, ow well, that just makes mortality m0re real. Its in institutionalizing fate is the problem.

>>81166529
This is a perfect metaphor to describe my life

>>81166007
Nice, literally me.

>>81165609
>>81166007
top kek

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>The virgin HP
>The chad meta
>The gigachad realism
The ultrachad "Bodyparts have hitpoints".

>>81169645
>Final Chad: All characters have an anatomical drawing of their character, which is marked on to represent damage to specific areas, chosen randomly with a 1d100 for X and Y position on the character's body.

>>81169740
I've always wanted to re-read Tsukihime and note all the injuries Shiki takes.

>>81165075
>If you don't enjoy spending rest of the session starting at the wall, you don't play
"nogame" is getting out of hand lately

>>81169918
At my table, whenever you take damage, to ensure my players understand the severity of injury, I will set a timer for minutes equal to the amount of damage taken. Players have to be quiet and sit there until the timer is up before I will resume the game, and if any of them speak or otherwise interrupt the timer, it's reset. If a character dies, I end the session, and we wait a week before starting the game back up. It's really helped my players to be more cautious, knowing that if they take damage, they have to sit there doing nothing while their ADHD-addled brains smoke and cook for five minutes because the ranger fucked up.

>>81169990
>At my table, whenever you take damage, to ensure my players understand the severity of injury, I will also hurt the player. If a character dies, I end the player, and we wait until after their funeral before starting the game back up. It's really helped my players to be more cautious, knowing that their own lives are on the line.

>>81170042
>YOU DIED, YOU DON'T EXIST ANYMORE

>>81170042
>BLACKLEAF NOOOOO!!!!

>>81170042
>>81170054
>>81170116
I've got tears in my eyes from how hard this made me laugh. Cheers anons. Glad I shitposted.

>>81165254
>muh superior 3.5e
The same gnome falling from a 50ft tall tower would just get 5d6 points of damage. Even if maxed out it's 30 points of damage out of the 90 hp the gnome has. He will simply get up and walk away without a single broken bone.

That's how shit d&d is.

>>81171411
That's how it works in real life though.

>>81164685
>play system with only narrative meta currency and no hp
"i wade across the river of lava and then brush off the bits that remained on my clothes. yeah im just an above average human, but only villains can kill me so who cares"

>>81171636
Yes.

>>81171411
>gnome accidentally falls off from the 50ft tall tower
"During the fall you hit against the tower wall multiple times. You grasp a protrusion for a moment but your grip is lost almost instantly. You smash the ground spectacularly but miraculously alive. Your head buzz like crazy and your body hurts immensely but no broken bones (apparently), lots of contusions, bruises and maybe your shoulder got dislocated for a moment"

>gnome purposely jumps from the 50ft tall tower because muh metagame "it's only 5d6 of damage"
I crack open the DMG at page 27 "Variant: Damage to specific areas" and pick the most appropriate crippling injury/ies.

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>>81169990

>>81165607
That says DC 15

>>81156135
The ol' charles atlas approach

>>81159162
DUCKED

>>81169856
I've only read the arcueid route, but I'm pretty sure he gets tackled by a tiger in the hotel and immediately stops it, and thwarts two or three sneak attacks with his death sense. He does get mauled by nrvnqsr's beasts, but powers through it and gets healed by the mud.

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>>81172892
Yeah, you're right, i remembered the scaling dc optional rule wrongly (so it should be DC 17 instead of DC 35).

>>81173126
>DC 17
I meant DC 19, i'm fucking sleepy right now.

>>81171851
>"During the fall you hit against the tower wall multiple times. You grasp a protrusion for a moment but your grip is lost almost instantly. You smash the ground spectacularly but miraculously alive. Your head buzz like crazy and your body hurts immensely but no broken bones (apparently), lots of contusions, bruises and maybe your shoulder got dislocated for a moment"
with a high HP system it's unlikely to ever get descriptions like this, and you'd only see it when the GM has read a thread like this, rather than actually emerging from the rules
whereas a system with meta-currency to avoid death (and limited HP or wounds to represent physical toughness), a description like this naturally rises out of the mechanics

>>81169990
At my table, whenever one of my players characters die, they get spanked with the yaoi paddle until they're sore

>>81173241
Based.

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>>81173237
>it's unlikely to ever get descriptions like this
Well since the phb explanation goes as in pic related in what other way the GM could explain the fact that the gnome survives the fall uncrippled?
I mean if you go "the gnome shakes off the the 50ft fall like nothing because it's super though" it (kinda) works the same but reeks like lazy shit from a mile away.

>>81164827
>>81165609
>>81166007
>>81169990
>>81170042
Best posts of the thread.

>>81155809
>the best way to represent heroic characters who survive deadly situations
Perhaps they could just be really skilled, strong, and not retarded/suicidal? Did ancient, demi-god heroes need some mechanism to survive falling in lava? No, because they weren't stupid enough to need it. The one character that I can think of who did have something like that going on, Achilles, was essentially an argument against that kind of plot armor since he died anyway while guys without magic bullshit invincibility lived.

>>81156865
You'd be dead before you even touched the lava.

>>81159800
>Lava has the density of stone
Do you think water has the density of ice?

>>81174246
>Did ancient, demi-god heroes need some mechanism to survive falling in lava?
in India they used a minor bun engine

>>81165006
>i am a bitchmade faggot that can't handle any form of consequence and i assume everyone else is the same

>>81174710
>I project this hard to get (You)s
sad

People should stop trying to use D&D as if it's a good system for narrative story games. Because it's one of the worst ones for that style.

>>81164797
>The real problem here is that D&D has an identity issue: it's a tactic single miniature combat game?
If you spend 5 minutes reading the book then it's very clear that this is exactly what the game is. Of course, people like Crawford want to shitpost otherwise on twitter etc. but the actual game has no support for anything other than a fantasy combat game.

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>>81179817
>>81179819
>bumpfags

>>81179839
>this is exactly what the game is
Well now that i think about...
- theater of mind combat almost impossible to do since 3e;
- hp bloat is so abstract that make only sense from a miniature game perspective;
- advanced game mechanics are all about combat;
- non-combat mechanics work only if you use them to bypass non-combat scenarios ("i roll persuasion to convince the guard at letting me pass"), that's why the binary fail-pass dynamic.

>>81155030
Neither. The player may make press F very quickly many times in quick succession. If he succeeds, then the player manages to punch a boulder into the lava, creating a platform to land on just as he falls in.

>>81173428
And what happens when the paladin deliberately tanks they fireball because it's no big deal or the whole party jump off the top of the tower because they know the damage it'll do is not sufficiently significant?

>>81180602
This happens: >>81171851
>muh metagame "it's only 5d6 of damage"
>I crack open the DMG at page 27 "Variant: Damage to specific areas" and pick the most appropriate crippling injury/ies.

>>81180741
>Gotcha!
I sleep

>>81180750
>d&d is shit
You don't say? Obviously i warn the players beforehand:
>"you know fate/gods are protecting you most of the times but forcing their hand is never a wise move"

>>81180765
>Having a conversation with his own imaginary audience
>Replying to non-existing content
Unironically seek medical help

>>81180979
Sorry if jumped over a step, apparently you not mentally equipped to follow a simple discussion, let me rephrase the post:

>>Gotcha!
>I sleep
Well d&d is shit so it may happen that the dm is forced to asspul a solution now and then. Obviously i warn the players beforehand:
>"you know fate/gods are protecting you most of the times but forcing their hand is never a wise move"

>>81158705
Whiter than you, Achmed