>>77247441
hairy, probably

>>77247452
Anon, be serious now.
Animated mustaches coming to life and strangling people has been a problem for LONG before industrialization.

>>77247441
Might erode clan structure if a minority of pro-mass-production groups split off from the traditional artisan majority and then grew to outcompete as well as outnumber them. Being Gunvaldson is as important as being 1/16 Irish-American, ie a joke to the actual Irish/old clans.

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>>77247680
Artisan clans, as I see it, would either do everything in their power to gimp/slow/outright stop the development of new technology that could be a threat to themselves OR try their damndest to be the sole owners of it.

>>77247441
>continuing your seethe in an entirely new thread

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Dorfs having control over mountains with vast amounts of resources to mine and sell to the people off the mountain would provide them with a steady supply of wealth. Mines potentially drying up would likely lead to economic troubles and questions as to whether it's a good idea to dig deeper and risk any dark troubles.

The Dorfs would have their economic rivals, the Kobolds are especially a threat because of the fact that they more or less live to work. The Kobolds are eternally attached to their Dragons, this could be an advantage or disadvantage depending on whether the Dragon is economically savvy to trade with people who need a mountain's resources.

Dwarf products are crafted with quality in mind and are likely to last for a long time so long as it is properly taken care of; you can spot a Dwarf product by sight alone.

I don't how industrial a Dwarfhold would be, but I don't think they would want things to change too much to break their ancestors handiwork unless it is totally necessary.

>>77247796
Dwarvefags are as petty as the elves they constantly seethe over

>>77247771
Probably. The idea of lip-service to largely diluted traditions contrasted with actual diehards just strikes me as an interesting take on how modernity might effect dwarven culture. Given modernization was far from an instant thing and in fact required a kind of feudal rigidity in countries that successfully caught up artisans seeing the way the wind was blowing and catching up to initial innovators while clinging to power would be neat. The question is if patent law would be incorporated into honour culture, I can see a trademark being as important as a coat of arms. Insulting either through unsanctioned duplications is lese majeste.

>>77247830
all the memes they spout are just talking shit, but the second you bant back they get fucking enraged and start crying

>>77247830
>wojakniggers salty about actually constructive setting discussion
Every time.

>>77247827
"Built to last" being such a sacred aspect of their culture suggests that even if they industrialised they couldn't transition into a purely consoomer economy. With planned obsolescence (rightly) being considered an insult the market WILL be saturated with durable goods.

>>77247865
I could see patents being owned by specific clans and families as their property, and so much as building one of their machines without their explicit written consent being illegal as fuck. The early years of dwarven industry would probably be marred with little to no standardization, and each contraption being slightly to wildly different from other devices of similar function. If the Stoneheart clans cave-wheat harvesting machine looks and sounds a bit too much like the Glimmerhold Clans cave-wheat harvesting machine, the ensuing legal shitflinging could gum up a holds many courts for months at a time.

>>77247932
Assuming the "early break by mass-producer clan" works them already being outcasts few in number could ease suspicion and lead to standardization by accident. It'd be cool to imagine their early lead giving way to syndicalism and worker's strikes because faith in the old traditions has eroded giving adaptive artisans the time they need to form not!zaibatsus to catch up.

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>>77247922
With the quality of a craft being so paramount, inventions may come to the market with many of the kinks and flaws already worked out by a given family or clans engineers, which would be one fuck of a trip, with new and somewhat functional and reliable shit showing up as something totally alien and new to shops. One day you're getting your beard trimmed by a barber, the next day that same barber has a fucking rune-carved shaving machine that he can actually swear by and was getting its kinks worked out by some clan you've never heard of on the other side of the world for the past six years.

>>77247972
>faith in the old traditions has eroded
I could see it warping from 'what our ancestors have done and is proven to work' into 'whatever is efficient and effective'
Which could either work really well or go straight into dystopia.

>>77247980
That kind of long-term development would only work when the demands of the market are relatively predictable ironically making dwarven conservatism key to their innovation. What would an alternative to consoomerism have been irl anyway? afaik the gist is that with production outstripping demand ad agencies started trying to stimulate demand by convincing the populace that they NEED pointless trinket #695E.

>>77248016
As humourless, drunken lumpenproletarian the dwarves would actually make pretty scary communists. It'd need some drastic trauma to completely shake their ingrained respect for family institutions though, the production-centric splinter clans might downplay their importance but not outright contradict it.

>>77248045
You know how in strategy games there's the idea of 'playing tall'? Making less of something but that thing being better and far more developed? Probably like that in place of rampant consumerism. The tools and methods of work get better, the government is more effective based on the needs of the people, education and skill being valued higher and higher. Almost like Star Trek, you don't work for wealth to afford random trinkets and baubles necessarily, you work and develop skills because your clan and hold NEED you to get good at something. With everyone getting a full belly and with ever-more effective warriors and war-machines guarding their borders, dwarves may become more and more prideful of their civilization and their peoples, potentially mutating into the oft-harmful problems of xenophobia and hardline nationalism if taken too far.

>>77247922
They could certainly never get into digital technology then. You imagine server rooms built to last centuries and expanded upon with all manner of backwards compatibility to hook up a babbage like machine to a modern desktop and all so some old engineer can do simple calculations with said babbage type computer.

>>77248112
A pity that it was the market which enable fast and widespread industrialisation in the first place (though even then it required trust-busting to hobble the robber barons), I can't see humans without foresight avoiding descent into consoomdom when at the time letting policy be led by money seemed to have worked out. That said the zaibatsu were a weird hybrid case which prospered as a market externally but was all-but feudal internally and still is to this day with lifetime employment.
>>77248153
Good point. I bet dwarven logic-engineers seethe endlessly about having to import human or worse (((elven))) data-crystals because their industry doesn't have fast enough turn-around. That said while the human net gets infested with rogue daemons every other week dwarven networks are rock solid.

>>77248153
They would definitely be behind for years or even decades, if other races are a part of this particular picture. Eventually though, some visionary (or mad, depending on who you ask) head-of-clan or hold might pour his wealth into figuring out just what these 'computers' are capable of, probably starting a tradition-vs-new fight that would mirror the original march into industry.

>>77248254
I bet they'd make Babbage's dreams come true where other races would abandon metal to work with silicon.

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>>77248202
>>77248254

It'd be the worse version of the initial implamentation of network technology. There was a time you had to have your building wired specifically to work with whatever vendor you were using (Apple, Sun Microsystems, Windows, etc) because they all had their own network protocols that worked on their own shit.

I imagine in a clan situation you'd have different formats all over the place with little to no compatibility unless it was somehow vital and then you have upstart clans who are looking to get a piece of the pie either to get in the good graces of the existing clans or to usurp them.

No wonder a lot of dwarves come to live and work in the human lands when you got that sort of shit to deal with.

>>77248075
They probably have an innate need to belong to a lineage even more so than humans making different interpretations of political doctrine a much bloodier replacement for the clans. I imagine that if a few went syndie they be no less mad but liable to favour open source which eases some of the problems >>77248361 mentions while causing others.

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>>77248361
>Literal Format and Console Wars
That'd make infiltration and cooperation both exceedingly difficult. What happens when both clans end up in a cooperative endeavor only to realize their tech doesn't talk at all? Sure they could figure it out on their own time but what if a king or lord needs them to cooperate and doesn't have the time for them to figure out what the fuck is going on? Could a great leader perform the work of standardizing certain components of the technology?

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>>77248430
>Syndicalist Dwarves

I could totally see this. More and more the concept of "family" as a corporation comes to mind. You and your biological family are selected for their skill and you are "married" into the family so you have your given name and family name. So, you literally marry into your job and work it your entire life. Hereditary membership may or may not be a thing depending on the Family and Clan, the Clan being the conglomaration of various Families

>>77248500
Necessity would force some level of standardization. The big political blood/piss fights comes from who gets to dictate the standard which gives them immeasurable social and political power.

>>77248500
I always imagined rune magics implied a talent and fascination with cryptography. Dwarves might even oppose human-friendly machine language on principle for diluting the purity of communion with divine logic. Maybe I'm just projecting the Dwemer and kabbalah autism where it doesn't belong.

>>77247922
Funny thing is that "Built to last" is one of the things that killed British industry.
A lot of old British industrial equipment is still in use today despite being over two hundred years old in some cases.
Workshop I used to work at had a steel roller that was built during the industrial revolution. They got a modern one but it broke inside a year and they just started using the ancient one again.

Old British made appliances and such are a similar story.
Because shit got built to last once you sold something to someone chances were you'd never sell them anything again.

So I think in many ways a purely capitalist society wouldn't be doable in keeping with the cultural norms of the Dwarves probably leading to a schism in Dwarven society with some holds adopting something more communistic in order to keep with their traditional view of Dwarven craftsmanship and maintain its standards.
While others will adopt the idea of planned obsolescence making their products designed to fail at set points in set ways. Probably even openly advertising such a fact "You will get exactly ten thousand uses out of this. Not one more. Not one less. Or your money back."

I think seeing Dwarves applied to things like computers would be interesting. In its early days it was a rapidly shifting field not suited to the production of traditions.
But now we've plateaued in regards to computers with older methodologies and norms focused on efficient usage of system resources now coming back into the limelight but are only really remembered by people who were coding at the dawn of the modern computer era, not being really properly laid out in any formal educational texts.
So could you wind up with a situation wherein Dwarven software is noted for its simple and spartan nature but is also exceedingly efficient and light on system requirements?
A dwarf programmer says "Why bother getting more ram you wazzock? Just use what you have better"

>>77248559
We could be looking at this the wrong way and assuming the intuitive division between family and vocation is also a thing in dwarven psychology. Maybe what humans see as a breakaway group dissolving family and embracing a more communalarrangement is just a regular guild-group exploring a new are of craft and expanding to fill that niche because their fellows were too cowardly to follow.

>>77248596
Quality post anon, thanks for the info.

>>77248596
>UrisTek
>Simple, Efficient, Built like a Brick
Dwarftech would look like the shit from the Alien series, big-plastic buttons, thick and bulky construction something you could beat a cave-beast off with then keep using like nothing happened.

Clans turn into zaibatsu

If dwarf fortress is anything to go by, after long enough working menial and non-artisinal jobs the dwarves begin to go insane with the grind.
Luckilly by this point any half-decent fortress will have a penal colony/mental institution in hell, and a constant stream of immigrants and dwarven kindergarten graduates.

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I don't know shit about industry, but all this zaibatsu talk gives me an excuse to post this.

On an unrelated note I liked a throwaway detail in one of Greg Stolze's settings whose name I can't remember. The dwarves were ruled eternally by masked kings, the various mortal individuals who actually acted out the role are referred to as "moods" of the ostensibly immortal monarch. Seems like a natural precursor to incorporation though I imagine early attempts will either be embraced or met with huge resistance for having treasonous overtones. It'd be hilarious is the guild-loving race were the most inherently opposed to corporatocracy.

THICK SHAVED DWARF VULVA

>>77248681
As they'd modernize, they'd have to give non-artisans something to do. Enough free-time to pursue an artistic hobby of their own, or public-access fighting rings, hunting clubs, competitive rock-climbing, that kind of thing.

>>77248685
>warrior caste reduced to clerks waxing lyrical about incredibly impractical martial traditions
I can dig it.

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Weaponize molten metal for use as projectiles.

What would dwarven Buddhism be like? We know about ancestor-cults and worship of the written word but if there were a philosopher whose apolitical teachings caught on despite little reference to the divine what could it be? For one thing their solid surroundings would suggest seeking substance instead of emptiness. Rather than letting one's mind escape mortal concerns through detachment instead proactive obsessive scrutiny of matter until the sheer force of concentration compresses the subject into one with the object being observed. Zen meditation in craft seems a natural fit though perhaps because that's the dwarven default mandala destruction would be more countercultural.

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How would Dorfs get around the hold, I know in more medieval or traditionally fantasy settings they'd probably have animals or even just walk about the hold but what a about modern form of transportation?

I feel like Kobolds would be big on public transportation like trolleys and subway trains but would a Dwarf have something different, maybe a crafted Dorf cart or something?

>>77248832
Elevators are a must and where combustion isn't an issue minecart derived train/trams would be common. Winding faraway where fuel can be burned without suffocation might be the way to go, those coiled springs also straighten with deadly force for plot hooks aplenty.

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>>77248832
Something like this.

>>77248832
Kobolds are rickshaw or palanquin users given the innate hierarchy of dragonlikeness. No dwarf would stoop to carrying another for cash (honour is another matter) and the rich would want to show off their fancy mechanisms.

>>77248832
I can imagine dwarves living in the same structure/warren as their jobs would be if it's all family owned. Still, it'd probably be trains and trolleys, subways and metros.

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I've always interpreted runes as 'physical code' that you could put on something. A small, carved symbol that sucks up mana from the other side, the rune gives that mana rules to follow, and it exits the rune into the object it is carved into. But mana is inherently caustic and dangerous to the world as we understand it, and as such runes need constant re-carving and scrutiny to make sure they aren't going to crack or fail. More complex runes or series of runes only increase the difficulty of a given carving, as such it would be near-impossible to create a computer or train that runs entirely off of runic magic, but you COULD improve a key component with it.
Of course, the common opinion is that if your component requires the rune to do its job in the first place, your entire craft is shoddy at best, and an insult to all craftsdwarves everywhere at worst.

>>77248832
My gut says that due to the premium on space in a hold private vehicle ownership would be seen as antisocial with public/group transport being the norm.

>>77248887
Yeah elevators are a must have if you're living in a mountain with multiple levels.

>>77248919
>Kobolds are rickshaw or palanquin users
I was referring to the Kobolds themselves using public transportation because they seem more community oriented and up for work types. I guess the rickshaw, palanquin, or the eventual limo equivalent would be use for Dragon nobles though, not Kobold workers.

>>77248919
I was probably thinking about personal transportation, but I think I got some good answers.

>>77249031
Would you concede to the idea that most public transportations would have different sections for wealthier individuals?
Why would Villum Godrig, inventor of the Godrig-Steamdrill have to ride with the common laborers and paper-pushers?

>>77249031
All the more reason for scandalously rich noble to get in on the action. Penchant for sensible public transport or not you can bet the dwarves love their noble-sponsored grand prix is beloved by the people. Dwarves are sturdy enough to survive crashes other races wouldn't and delight in contradicting the "slow stubby legs" stereotype.

>>77247441
Kowloon.

>>77249080
Also kobold streets are probably so littered with traps that only cabbies with nimble feet are capable of smoothly navigating them.

>>77249085
Plausible. But it depends on what flavour of Dwarf we're running with as generally in depictions Dwarves aren't so big on such grandiose displays of wealth between each other. But love them when it comes to outsiders.

Different households/clans having their own carriages is plausible.
But I think a more likely scenario and one in keeping with the stereotypical Dwarven culture is that rather than the successful and respected getting their own carriages everyone just gives them a respectful amount of space.
>"Come on we can fit at least ten more Dwarves in that tram! Look theres a whole row of empty seats"
>"Fuck no you tosser. Do you see who's sat there? That's Muskbeard."
>"Oh. Right. Trams full lads!"

>>77249097
>noble-sponsored racing evolved from miners illegally racing carts after hours
>the fist tracks were rigged out of offcuts and pig-iron in unsafe cavers
kino
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtQUtMbAYw

>>77249097
Oh definitely. Can see that. Though it'd likely get mixed reception.
Too much new fangled stuff.

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I've always liked the idea that the original 'potions' came about from dwarven alcohol, and that most potions have alcohol content in them at some point.

>>77249166
>>77249158
>>77249097
Dwarves would probably respect vehicles and certain levels of automation, again with mixed results. Robotics would be an interesting debate to watch when they get to sci-fi tech. But racin' dorfs? Sky-machine dorfs? Give me. I want to see Dwarven Nascar underground, surface-track, and sky divisions.

>>77249169
Liqueurs started out as medicinal extracts of plant essential oils. They went from being prescribed drugs to after dinner digestion aids to flat out alcoholic beverage. Sounds a little like that process in reverse.
>You tried fermenting WHAT, Urist?!

>>77249261
>The modern understanding of alchemy, and of potion-craft in general all started when a brewmaster was sick and tired of hearing whinging about how his brews offered little to no 'positive effects'
>I'll show THEM 'positive effects!'
>Oh wait holy shit my missing fingers back.

>>77249294
>for the last time Urist, rotgut that makes you sprout mushrooms is not an "acquired taste"
>no Urist, I DON'T care that humans are buying it by the crateful because they aren't drinking it
>it's a fucking BIOWEAPON you pickled sot

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All this thread is doing is making me imagine some sci-fi dwarven megacity where masters of their respective crafts and industries get into endless shenanigans on the journey to mastery and glory. With young greenbeards endlessly caught in the chaos.

>>77249425
I once say art of an eastern European canyon megacity that looked like "gothic cyberpunk" without being ott 40k crap. Wish I could remember the artist.

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>>77249122
I don't know why but I've imagined some scene where a Dwarf and a Kobold are visiting some Dragonhold because the Kobold is visiting family.

>The Dwarf wants to take a cab because he thinks it'll draw unwanted attention, the Kobold recommends against it and take the subway instead but the Dwarf insists on it.

>So they get into the cab, the driver is an old childhood friend of the Kobold and they meet-up a little bit and get introductions done. While that's happening the Dwarf notices the cab is unusually armored for such mundane vehicle with armor plating, fencing over the windows, and military grade tires.

>Finally they get into the cab, they put their seat belts on and the driver puts on a pair of goggles and hands back some protective gear for the passengers: helmet, goggles, protective gloves and jackets.

>The Kobold smiles at his Dwarf friend as cabbie puts the key and starts the engine and asks if he's sure about this as the cabbie looks back at him.

>The Dwarf sits up in his seat and with a grin of uncertainty gives a thumbs up for the hell ride he's about to have.

I wish I was a better drawfag to include a related image, oh well.

>>77249480
I would have thought goblin society would the judge-dredd hellscape of advanced technology fueling gang-warfare and open chaos in the street, but go for it anon.
Now I just want an underground sci-fi megalopolis with all the short-races and maybe a drow or myconid or two thrown in.

>>77249542
It makes sense for post-apocalypse fantasy to be underdark-centric given the tunnel cities are bunkers against magic nukes by default.

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>>77249542
>I would have thought goblin society would the judge-dredd hellscape of advanced technology fueling gang-warfare and open chaos in the street, but go for it anon.
If you think that's what the armored cab is for then I'm afraid you're wrong, >>77249122 mentioned something Kobold cabbies being able to drive the streets because it's littered with traps.

Underground holds do seem to be a good premise for Mega City, specifically the Mega Blocks. I personally don't think Dorfs be for that kind of society, but I don't know.

>>77249640
Judges seems like a plausible outcome of religious legalism + desperate times, their default society is probably closer to rule by judge than humanity anyway.

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>>77249573
Seems chock-full of adventure!

>>77249640
Dwarves wouldn't be down for such a shitty world such as Dredd, if they had a say in it. But if it was some distant colony world and everything went to shit, or any other form of non-ideal situations, you could definitely fit them in.

>>77249675
>been down in the deepest delve dwarvenkind has ever organized
>Thend keeps muttering that we're actually mapping out bunkers and Olun gibbers about digging too deep
>despite the doomsayers everything goes well though comms cut halfway through, probably our sponsors being cheap bastards
>no matter, the expedition was designed to be self sufficient
>eventually ascension day rolls around and we make trek back up proud to carry samples and seismic data
>there are no relay teams to relieve us, no overseer outposts to debrief us
>Thend and Olun have gone quiet, now I feel like I'm the paranoid one

>>77249764
more!

>>77247441

Short and brutal

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>>77250621
Well that won't be hard.

>>77249640
Remember that scene from Treasure Planet with Jim flying through the mining facility? I'm imagining that with dwarven youth sailing through on minecarts or grind-rails through abandoned mineshafts

>>77250862
Dwarf ruins best ruins. Nobody inspires overly elaborate setpiece deathtraps better than Armok when your in a Fell Mood.

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>>77247441
God-damn Namari is cute.
Peak Femdorf performance.

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>>77250862
>Remember... Treasure Planet
Dude, that was one of my childhood movies, I should give it a rewatch.
>Jim flying through the mining facility? I'm imagining that with dwarven youth sailing through on minecarts or grind-rails through abandoned mineshafts
Sounds pretty cool.

>>77251619
It was way better than it had any right to be and it's a tragedy that the studio strangled it in the crib out of spite. Atlantis also had some astounding moments though being a flawed film.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7kJfm8gc3I
>>77251506
We shilling weird underdark races now?

>>77247796
>>77247830
If this thread is what seethe looks like I have no idea what strange parallel universe they're from.

>>77251698
Don't tempt me, I'll shill my donut-steel bullshit.

>>77252222
Go on, we may as well until someone objects. A good chunk of the catalog is bait at any given time anyway.

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>>77252269
Here it is. Underground prospectors and miners, and to be blunt, my take on dwarves but with a different name so as to not cause unnecessary confusion or conflict. Rather then be defined by crafting and mining for wealth, they are defined by community and survival. Lifes tough deep underground. They also practice several types of magic, few of which are your typical scholarly wizard types. In fact many of them are partially martial. They share some of their land with their closest cousins, the Longfellows, but are typically suspicious of outsiders and fiercely territorial.

>>77252397
>humanoid
Given how outlandish the underdark tends to be relative to the overworld why not try something stranger. Make the dog-people quadrupedal with prehensile star mole noses in lieu of hands.

That said community over craft is interesting, sounds like they'd be natural syndies like those mentioned above with impersonal guilds being the aberration born of modernity. Longfellows sound neat, especially in a restricted space environment. Are they bendy or do they fold up tight?

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>>77252618
>Dog people
Intended to be more badger like but eh, easy mistake to make with cartoony artwork. Their communities can be rather isolated. And land, food, and light are the major commodities.
>Longfellows
Noodle-like, with very long ferret-like bodies and great flexibility. Are natural swimmers and water-hunters, and as such make their homes near underground rivers and lakes. Where the Badken (the main race in question here) are STR/END, Longfellows are INT/DEX.

>>77252774
Consider that naked mole rats are adapted to the comparatively unchanging conditions underground and past a certain point it starts getting hotter the deeper you go (as always realism is inspiration rather than law). Moles are hairy but I think that has something to do with having dirt slide smoothly over them (doesn't really apply to ready-dug tunnels) and they're in the upper layers where the molten heart of the world won't cook them.

Interesting Longfellows and a good name, my first thought had been some kind of slenderman trying to awkwardly squeeze through sharp turns. Cave lakes and underground rivers are definitely a niche worth colonising, hope they have pressure negating magics.

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>>77251010
True.
She's way too good.

>>77251698
I'll ask since you obviously want someone to. What is your weird underdark race?

>>77252891
I very much appreciate the feedback!
A big thing with the badken and longfellows is that they were both originally surface-dirt-dwellers who have been forced to adapt to much deeper conditions, but learning about what makes the real underground tick is both educational and helpful.

>Interesting Longfellows
Cheers! They're far less fleshed-out then the Badken are and improving them has been a goal of mine for some time. They are far less strong and a lot skinnier, but fuck are they fast.
>pressure negating magics.
They do! But it, like most magic in this setting, can be very rare and can be very dangerous, so only the most driven of their divers will turn to it. I'm just now figuring out the magic-mechanics of the setting.

>>77253016
Check out >>77238422. There are allusions to the wacky underground and how weird water gets when it's forced into a small space. Anyway, keep at it.
>>77252991
I got several but the most developed at present are the "bigger-smallers" (still working on a better name). Basically scavenger mites evolved to have one of their number swell in size to defend big finds from other scavs. In time the bigger and brainier protectors started using pheromonal cues to direct the construction of traps to keep them fed and dominant for longer. An arms race of ever greater size ensued until the monarchs were so large that they could no longer moult without surgical supervision from their lessers, this forms the metaphorical and very physical basis of the modern bigger-smaller social contract.

These days PCs are middling hierarchs who look like squat manweight crabs carrying cabinets full of their smaller kin on their backs. As B-S get bigger their number of ganglia increase making them better at multitasking but losing monomaniacal focus the smallest can summon, each PC is a mobile bureau (furniture and organisation) with fashion indicating function. Warriors wear miniature manned siege towers, clerks have elaborate writing desks and dpilomats have silks and "carrier Pidgeon" (some as of yet horrible underdark beastie fulfils the same role) dens.

>>77253184
>monarchs were so large that they could no longer moult without surgical supervision from their lessers
Fucking awesome.

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Would there be a women's liberation movement? Not in the human sense, I think tradition and patriarchy are ingrained into dwarves on a genetic level, but more like women being allowed to work in traditionally male jobs. Female smiths and brew masters for example.

>>77253705
I want a female brewmaster GF so we can get shitfaced together and fall asleep in each others arms.

>>77253659
The modern monarch is ceremonially draped in colours and scents representing death, rebirth and execution as they go for their moulting and the "master of changes" is the smaller associate (ritually prohibited from being above a certain size to properly represent the consent of the small to rule by the large) who oversees the surgery that sometimes involves jackhammers and crowbars. Some fel kings have achieved independence through foul means. The "naked ones" have torn away their rigid outer flesh entirely relying on levitation magics and copious pharmaceuticals to keep their ever greater and ever smarter forms alive.

Another aspect of social balance is that all adults are hermaphrodites who constantly exchange gamete pods (a routine grooming affair, they're confused by human sexuality) and shed egg-cysts. Being larger the monarchs shed far more eggs and the population is disproportionately more related to them than any other individual, the bigger they are the more instinctually compelled they are to guarantee the wellbeing of their community. This is why PCs are often middling rather than large. An adventurer king would be seen as so irresponsible as to be nearly sociopathic.
>>77253705
I've seen the divides being more along the lines of craftsdwarves vs minerdwarves. A compromise might be the usual things like gemcutting and silversmithing being seen as feminine crafts along with stranger things like the teaching of mining but not mining itself.

>>77253705
Personally I think Dwarves are going to be more inclined to specialise.
Humans are pretty specialised already along sex lines. But we're close enough that we ignore it often to our detriment.

Dwarves I expect would be less inclined to ignore these differences with a rather firm view on what constitutes suitable roles for men or women and which are suitable for either.
So anything requiring a lot of muscle or in manufacturing is likely going to be exclusively male. While fine crafts will see both sexes represented. Meanwhile more social roles such as initial education or social service roles are going to be entirely female to the point where any male who even expresses an interest is probably going to be viewed as having a mental illness.
Perhaps medicine being female dominated could be plausible since it plays into the combo of Dwarves generally being intelligent/skilled but also the supportive role that females generally historically play in relation to males

>>77254069
Brewing and chemistry might be female dominated too just because they stick around the house and might maintain that link as they transition to larger breweries.

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>>77254069
>tfw will never be nursed back to health by a sexy and highly skilled dwarf nurse

>>77254234
She'd probably disapprove of any unmanly wounds, you'd better have a gnarly scar from dragonslaying to retrieve rightful dwarven gold if you want her to express admiration.

>>77253901
Come to think of it cross-species surgery from these guys would be pretty weird.
>the patient is displaying symptoms of lunacy, compression of internal organs is the likely cause
>auger probes indicate excess calceous build up and ganglionic engorgement about the upper sensory bulb
>we must partially amputate this "skull" to release foul spirits and restore clear thought
>ready the mandible-saw
tfw trepanation was actually a common an survivable medical procedure which prehistoric humans performed irl

>>77254234
Considering the lifespan of Dwarves in most settings we might see a very different career track in a number of fields especially in regards to medicine.
Meaning rather than nurse and doctor being explicitly different career tracks they may instead be different stages of the general medicine career.
So a nurse would in effect be equivalent to an apprentice who has done the basics and is earning the experience needed to be taken seriously and climb up to being a full fledged junior doctor.

>>77254190
Quite possibly.
I think more than a few of the intellectual fields might see women being over represented in Dwarven society.
But when the field involves anything physical or working with material things like machinery? It shifts to male exclusivity. Likely in a manner that seems inconsistent to outsiders.
So female chemists are the norm but all engineers are male.
It also depends on where these new professions originate. So if we assume things like runic magic bullshit are male only and that somehow leads to computers then we could see programming being an explicitly male profession.

Tradition and where in their traditional framework new things emerge from is likely to drive a lot of Dwarven norms in a "modern" setting.

>>77254234
>No beard

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>>77254469
Christ not you faggots again.

>>77254469
I will beat you to death

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>>77254234
Would non-magical medicine be seen as masculine or feminine?

>>77254509
I think depends on the source. And what kind of magic Dwarves even use.
Since generally they're depicted as using rune based magic and these "runesmiths" often taking a quasi-religious role in their society I think it would be an entirely masculine profession.

>>77254469
Personally I like long head hair from either side braided together over the chest Quipu/braille braids get clan allegiance and personal history across in the dark (in fact "reading her braids" might be a go-to paper thin excuse for nookie in a dark corner).

>>77254509
Assuming the brewing => potions route with home brewing => industrial alchemy might suggest womenfolk work. Runesmiths mend objects and shape stone while womenfolk who birth flesh have mastery over it as they do crops.

>>77254538
I just realised I misread that.

>>77254612
>misread while writing about runesmithing
Should you continue to shame your ancestors anon, your name shall be struck from the most haloed records.

>>77254656
I missed the non in non-magical.
To be fair here I'd already covered medical stuff in the post he was quoting.

So here's a thought.
Love and marriage.
Since in most depictions Dwarves are big on arranged marriages think this would carry through?
Or would a hybrid model similar to what is sometimes seen in Japan emerge? With family arranged matchups only happening if they fail to find a partner early on in life.
>"Sweetie you're 60 this year and still single. I think its time we started looking at arranging some marriage meetings."
>"No nooo it's just things have been hectic at work and such so not had time to go on the prowl"
>"You're not getting any younger and all your sisters are already married. We're just worried. Now one of my friends has this cute son, well to do even he runs his own forge. He's 68 and oh you should see the arms on him."
>"I'm telling you it's fine I don't need an arranged marriage"
>"I'm not asking you to mount him the minute you see him, just meet him and see if it sparks anything you know?"

>>77254709
It's all good man. As anons we're already all but soulless outcasts according to dwarven sacred nomosophy. Speaking of surgery what might dwarven augmentation be like? I imagine they'd disdain magically sullying the purity of the body but hidden augments like stone bones or alchemical livers might thrive on the underground market. Most frivolous and detestable of all would be beard augmentation, rumour has it that a certain clan head who plaited his luxuriant locks according to a forbidden pattern found his beard possessed and was strangled by his own moustache. His corpse wanders those halls still grooming itself and brewing scented pomades from those unfortunates it captures. [insert skyknit reference here]

>>77255149
Considering how dangerous mining tends to be and the high chances of being maimed via heavy industry?
I think they'd be extremely open to prosthetics and ultimately body modification.

>>77255221
Prosthetics replicating function and mods augmenting it are very separate concepts. Also going by runecraft mending being religious (lot of assumptions here obviously) products of craft might be sanctioned in a way biological work isn't. You now who wildshapes and grows living wood into tools? (((e l v e s)))

Industrialization brought immense wealth, and connected the various city states and clans into a Dwarf Nation. When demand for their products dropped, as new competition rose. It was a minor inconvenience. As the dwarfs leveraged their wealth to transition the economy to finance and rare materials.

Small scale crafting has flourished under the democratic socialist welfare state. Dwarves only work because they want to.

>>77255312
True genetic engineering is gonna face a lot of hurdles among Dwarves
But the thing is that when you're using high end prosthetics to replace lost function it's not a huge leap to augmentations.

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>>77247441
>TFW no ginger dwarven tomboy GF.
Take me now, Lord.

>>77255378
True, as always it's yet another interesting fault-line in the racial psyche to play for drama.
>>77255375
Good point dwelling on the financial aspect as well as the manufacturing one. Going by that samurai simile earlier it'd be cool to see a nation of bankers who romanticize their artisanal past now that it's all gone to off-shore realms with cheap labour. The idea of interest, usury and grudges would be interesting given the extent to which the concept of debt is used in religious language.

>>77255472
Personally I'll take a brunette who insists she's ginger under all the soot (ginger having the opposite perception than it does among humans). An outdoorsy dwarf who prefers mountain climbing to the stuffiness of the hold would be neat too.

>>77255510
I think some holds could fall to the financial thing. But I wager most would through a combo of traditional thinking, savvy business sense and protectionism understand that outsourcing would fuck them hard in the long run.
Much like its fucked Europe and the USA.

As mentioned earlier Dwarven goods would be extremely durable and long lasting. But their society would likely have to ditch a lot of profit motive thinking in order to not disintegrate.

>>77255616
Well, we already said they might avoid the consoomer traps so who's to say long term thinking might not curb outsourcing? There is the fact that volatile human realms would outpace them in the short-term forcing them into a specialised niche. That and the contempt for markets dictating policy seems at odds with their role as financiers unless they're exploiting the short-sighted gullibility of everyone else and working according to a not entirely capitalist system internally.

>>77255714
In general they're going to be disconnected from the wider economy.
Much more internally focused.
Because that's how you dodge modern globalist outsourcing. Slave labour producers will always be able to outcompete worker based producers.

>>77255817
Yet more resemblance to communism, burgher-dominated human civs might use McCarthy rhetoric to justify their practices by accentuating the "antiquated and aristocratic guild system" compared to the egalitarian "providing job opportunities" in the third world. Doesn't mean that some of their propaganda wouldn't have a point buried between bullshit though.

>>77255883
Yeah I'm thinking more than a few holds in order to maintain the standards they set themselves culturally are going to in effect become communistic.
Not stalinist though.

as laid out here basically >>77248596

>>77255931
The world is an ideologically rich place and there's room for alt-historic diversity when not quite human societies are involved. Personally I like my clanless mass-producers => fractured syndies => guild-zaibatsus playing catch up because it makes the race less of a cultural monolith but I can see why a smaller and more self consciously modest pop would favour your progression.

>>77254386
I had the pleasure to study a collection of pre-contact of south american indians with one guy with face cancer having seven trepanations, one surprisingly wide, before they decided to put him down.

>>77256042
Amazing how sharp they got those obsidian scalpels. I remember reading the passage about them in the Subtle knife and being stunned that these were real life practices rather than fantasy, sometimes the world really is a wonderful place. Regarding my crab-things obsidian might be hard to come by depending on how volcanic the underdark is so early tools might have been made from discarded shell. The idea of a monarch hobbling itself with a misshapen sculpted limb so it can be harvested during the next moult probably has deep symbolic significance even now that they're civilised metalworkers.

>>77255978
I think in a general context the hold social model will survive.
It's like monogamy in human pops. It survives and thrives because its vastly superior compared to alternatives which while capable of surviving are constantly struggling to overcome the drawbacks of their models.

The hold model has a unique convergence of factors that I think will enable it to weather the changing of the eras.
Generally speaking anything with an ingroup focus is very strong and introducing outgroup elements always leads to its breakdown. Especially if said outgroups are ingroup focused.

>>77256119
To me the mass-production breakaway is due to an inherent contradiction between "labour with love" and the gold-accumulating innovation-seeking aspect of craft. It could be as big an internal struggle as the reformation with all the bloodshed that entails

>>77252934
Paizuri

>>77256282
To an extent yes.
But its planned obsolescence that I feel will be the bloodiest fight.
In the modern global economy if you are not in on this scam you will collapse. It is integral to the modern economy. As noted in an earlier post not pursuing this model is what killed British industry.
But same time its completely antithetical to the common depiction of Dwarves as competent and proud craftsmen.

This is one reason I keep insisting that Dwarven economies would likely strive heavily for self sufficiency and a general disconnect from the outside world.
Because culture will bind them heavily to manufacturing and their other primary industries (mining and underground agriculture) are going to be entirely export industries.

>>77256354
The manufacturing vs finance divide might become a sticking point. A third option is to carry Switzerland's mercenary past into the future by acting as an elite army for hire. With some clever diplomacy you might turn your presence into a PR guaranteeing the rules of war are being observed (as incentivised by profits). I still say a lot of dwarven money-grubbing may take on a drastically different cast depending on the theology behind it. Is a tomb build for the living or the dead? Is a hoard circulated and displayed worth more than one hidden where only the gods see it? Can coin won by interest be as worthy as that by sweat?

>>77256514
I think its questions like this where the real opportunity for variation in the holds lies as the answers to said questions will lead them down wildly different and antagonistic paths.

>>77256588
Yeah. This has been a good thread. Truth is I'm not actually a dwarffag or usually into humanoid races at all, I just wanted to help prove that "short drunken scots" is just scratching the surface as most other flippantly superficial takes are. Nice talking to you anon, may your games be long and entertaining.

>>77248596
>They got a modern one but it broke inside a year and they just started using the ancient one again.
That stuff makes me so sad.
It feels like a broken society when stuff are developed that way.

>>77247796
A dwarven grudge knows no limit.

>>77247441
Up until the industrial revolution, the Italian Peninsula did very well. Afterwards? Not so much.
Dwarves, being known for riches of the earth, would be no winners on a post-industrial society. Humans with their shorter lifespans and thus quicker rate of renewing generations would be.

>>77258895
Grudges are known to cause depressions.

>>77258742
>It feels like a broken society when stuff are developed that way.
Planned Obsolesce is blasphemy against the Machine Spirit and should be punished by servitorization. Prove me wrong.

>>77248596
The British industry was killed by useless unions making companies run horribily and Thatcher crushing them for her white collar worker drones.

British companies today still ignore the idea of planned Obsolescnce. Compare a Dyson with a Shark Vaccum.

A Dyson can keep doing for decades, a Shark dies if you use it on the wrong type of floor.

Dyson is still a more profitable company than Shark.

>>77253705
You know a recent Age of Sigmar story actually told us how Fyreslayer women think.

They're even more traditionalist minded, to the point they still wear old armor while the men are rune powered monk-berserkers. They're also ten times more stubborn and basically ignore anyone getting in their way.

>>77256514
Why even talk about Switzerlands past? Switzerland right now is one of the leading developers in earthwork technology used for mining and excavation.

Actually the only countries even close are Britain and the US.

Would all dwarfs be FATASSES because they aren´t doing the - actual - physical tasks from pre-industrial society, or would they try to remain /fit/ like they normaly are depicted?

>>77260184
>A Dyson can keep doing for decades,

HA! Yeah right. I worked at a bookstore and the owner bought one. It lasted less then a year. Neither did the next one.

>>77260597
If it makes you horny, sure

Dwarves have no external pressures for survival - an individual dwarf is hardy, hard working and headstrong enough that even being plunked in the middle of a desert and left to starve to death is seen more as a challenge that was not overcome rather than the cosmic injustice most sapients would apprehend the problem as.

So, Dwarven economies and governance are baffling - a dwarf may give away a ton of iron that took a year to mine as a friendly gesture, only to charge a fortune for freshly grilled gristle.

Dwarves are, by this route, psychologically hard wired to answer the question "What is the ultimate aim of honor and hard work?"

There are the Glory Seeking dwarves who seek, through battle or hard work or any great personal achievement to enter in to timeless heroism.

There are the "Gold" seeking dwarves who believe riches are the only true indicator of Dwarven worth - although gold is the standard, they are by no means picky when it comes to the wealth, be it gems or precious metals, so long as it is durable and precious.

This is best explained by the Cathedral problem - both sides may agree to erect an ostentatious and elaborate cathedral at the heart of their underground kingdom.

Both would readily descend in to bloody civil war over disagreement over whether the Cathedral should be a hall of glory and honor to their heroes, or a treasury to house their collective wealth.

The uncomfortable and agreeably unpleasant third alternative are the Groupers. Dwarves that believe the success and power of their Hold is the path to virtue. Inevitably this leads to Indorfic crimes against the dwarven spirit - like prohibitions on alcohol, expansion on to the surface, and a fiat economy.

The Gloryists and Goldists have waged century long wars to break up and break down Grouper empires.

>>77260742
Actually not. I was just thinking here that an important aspect of dwarfs was that they were strong hard workers and their bodies showed it, post-industrial dwarfs being merely obssessed with being programmers feels like they would just become NEETS because the - physical - aspect of their crafts gets removed

>>77260753
Entropy and mercantilism taken to its logical conclusions.

Dwarves understand economics intuitively. In part because they understand numerology and mathematics intuitively - the same way humans intuit 3d space and social cues. It's part of why they find Fiat currencies abominable - all functions of value of paper currency can be solved for, given enough time and information, and therefor any dwarf that would willingly engage in that exchange is either cheating themselves by enriching another, or cheating another by enriching themselves. Dwarves strictly deny the idea of there being any "fair trade" - they posit only necessary trade or extortionate trade exist.

In this way, Dwarves understand there is a finite but uncertain amount of precious metal in the world. Unlike government currency. More may or may not form over a vast period of time, but for the present and foreseeable future, that sort of wealth is roughly fixed.

Therefor any dwarf that would willingly exchange his finite wealth for a means of utility - say a fine and intricate adding machine - either is boldly predicting he will make back more wealth with it, or has ignorantly given up something he cannot readily reclaim. Most dwarves intuitively agree to the latter over the former, since dwarves have no trouble with numbers or adding, or any problem with exhaustive patience and hard work. They see labor saving as broadly inefficient.

After all, the adding machine could break, market forces could devalue it, a lot of things could happen. But a dwarf that possesses a pound of raw gold bullion undeniably came to possess something of absolute worth (according to a dwarf.) The dwarf, possessing the bullion, has achieved a noble and honorable end to his hard work which satisfies him in a way that is inhuman and difficult to translate any more thoroughly.

>>77260676
And sharks last less time.

>>77247771
I like the idea that Dwarves oppose magic because it's an affront to the hard work that should be done with one's hands - not by supernatural means.
And I like the idea of them opposing industrial factory methods for the same reason.

Y'know I kind of always assumed that femdorfs and mandorfs were both *really* close together in terms of physical ability, so what's considered a 'male job' and a 'female job' have dramatic overlap.

>>77261377
Unless baby dwarves don't nurse and come from eggs or some kind of larval stage so pregnancy isn't an issue, unlikely. Or dwarves as a whole are eusocial with a single immense Dwarf Queen lurking in the heart of the mountainhome and the rest of the population are sterile.

>>77260199
>hypertrad enforcer of the rules as written and social morality
Unironically a perpetually neglected and unexplored feminine archetype.

>>77260116
01010000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100011 01101000 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01100010 01110010 01101111 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 00100001

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>>77259732
>when they as how your pickaxe is doing, but not you.

>>77253705
>I think tradition and patriarchy are ingrained into dwarves on a genetic level, but more like women being allowed to work in traditionally male jobs. Female smiths and brew masters for example.

Since female dwarves aren't commonly depicted, I think it makes sense that there is a naturally skewed sex ratio. The average dwarf women would probably marry more than once in their long lifetimes as male dwarves get themselves killed in ambitious but dangerous mining and in battle. Possible a system where a dwarf marries his dead brother's widow. Female dwarves would assist in their family trade and take the full load of the work when their husbands and fathers are away or dead.

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Imagine what an opening 'cutscene' would be for such a setting, just a camera panning through this labyrinthine subterranean megacity, just radios buzzing with news and communications.

>Damage response teams to sub-level 4, we have a steam-pipe burst in the residential block on that level.
>Security team to sub-port nine. We have a feral raid underway, civilian casualties confirmed.
>Rotgut stocks up 12%

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>>77248596
Maybe I've missed the whole post-industrial thing, but I had some ideas

Dwarves are often hyper-traditional, I could see them sticking to the Old Ways a lot more than the younger races - using guilds and at least semi-mercantilist economics.
Mercantilism doesn't preclude being financiers (and it sticks with the classic ideas of dwarves sitting on a huge pile of gold, and being artisans).
Guilds in the real world got out-competed by industrial markets in a large part because their price-set masterwork items weren't any better than mass-produced items - but for dwarves, that'd not be the case - dwarven work is renowned.
A dwarf buying non-dwarven would be a huge mark of shame, it's saying you're poor as fuck - and it goes against the mercantilist system, so if it's possible, it'd go against social traditions and you might face opprobrium (which is kind of how I see dwarves getting a lot of stuff done, honour is huge in the tight-nit clan society). Though a class of economically marginalised dwarves might emerge in a population explosion - potentially even because of one of the great causes of that IRL, the potato.
If top-down industrialisation is happening, someone gathering capital and workers to form a factory, the guilds would essentially form a complex union system - and I could see having to negotiate with all the various guilds involved in a factory adding a layer cost and sluggishness to the already slow level of dwarven innovation (though even factory-produced dwarven goods would likely be of the legendary quality and durability - their resistance to outsourcing being part of the mercantilist mindset). Using one clan for a factory (or one of the clan nobles setting it up) might speed things along though, if the clan structure is used to manipulate workers - he's not just your foreman, he's your great-uncle, and so on. In that case I would agree with >>77247771 on clans keeping developments in-hall and family secrets (and >>77248361's problems)

>>77262200
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbcoOqGKFi8
Even more Dredd vibes.
>Skarlsholm is a bewitched wasteland. Within it lies a mountain.
>Outside the boundary walls lies the slopes, a cursed earth.
>Inside the walls, a cursed city.

>>77262230
We explored breakaway industrialists further up too, could be one of the defining fault-lines associated with the transition to modernity.

>>77262259
Movie had a fucking transcendent soundtrack.

>>77262291
Yeah, a travesty that it never caught on. The lead actually had the balls to put staying true to the character above his ego and actually kept the mask on. The amount of expressiveness Karl Urban gets out of his lower face alone is astounding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQJH-zUYOoc

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>>77262140
An at least somewhat skewed sex ratio might make sense, and if men take up the more physical trades I can see dwarf women taking up legal and letters trades as a matter of course - with the fact that they're less likely to die doing some damn fool thing, and the deeper traditions of dwarven matrons as the keepers of morality and rules (>>77261595), you see a lot of older dwarven women as judges and lawyers and in accounting - they're lore-keepers and law-keepers, they've managed the clan's books for generations (and they're LONG generations), they know how money goes.
There might even be some bias on inheritance being matrilineal, as while a close clan structure means random bastards are a bit less likely, it's easier and more stable to have a mother identify her children than to claim inheritance via long chains in the clan structure.
I don't see this as dwarves not being patriarchal, or the Clan Chiefs having no power, but that behind his throne he has a number of respected mothers.
It also increases the value of a dwarven daughter, and helps explain/enforce elaborate dowries.

>>77262373
>you see a lot of older dwarven women as judges and lawyers and in accounting
sounds like russia

>>77262579
>dwalf
>soulless League of Legends artstyle
Checks out

>>77262590
Enlighten me. Is it a holdover from the Soviet pretence at communist egalitarianism or some other outcome of Russian life?

>>77259732
that why you TAKE BACK EVERY GRUDGE

>>77261482
love the concept of insect dwarves and hive-holds
keep their whole lore and grudges and disdain for umgi but make em arthropodes he he he

>>77262611
no idea but there's a lot of old women in medicine, in science, in anything really
maybe it's just them being here since forever and outliving old men

>>77262657
Maybe men are ever so slightly more alcoholic? Differential pickling rates could explain it.

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What would dwarven firearms and weapons technology develop into? Their military doctrine?

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Some hate these guys, I love them.
Which makes them the one thing from AoS I really like.