Well, I'd say that real life is currently a good example of that.

>Corporations
>good

>>76561016
shit bait

>>76561029
Implying that RL isn't just the most tedious and unexciting form of cyberpunk

>>76561000
Closest I can think of is Aeon Flux, but that's not very close.

>>76561000
Ghost in the Shell? Things are shady as shit but it's not totally dystopian. A lot of Stross' stuff comes close too though usually post-scarcity kicks in making current power strunctures irrelevant and Greg Egan is as always a treasure

>>76561041
I meant the part where he implies big corporation and governments are "basically good".

>>76561073
"Or at least lawful neutral" might be justifiable for a naïve optimist. The sheer short-sightedness a laser focus on quarterly returns causes is more like chaotic stupid.

>>76561000
what dis image is from?

>>76561000

I think what you're looking for is that big corpos and government are not comically mustache twirling villains' who cause dystopian suffering for it's own sake.

At best, life is fairly mundane except now as a birthday present instead of getting a car you get your first neural implants so you can use your devices hands free (sorta). Such a thing would probably be so ubiquitous that even the poorest people have some form of neural augment of some sort.

At worst, the rich are virtually immortal transhumanist and maintain a monopoly on said immortality by shear cost and upkeep but instead of being so detached from humanity they torture people for fun they are probably fucking off to the other half of the solar system or live in space stations while joe nobody goes to work in a virtual office using his brain's processing power to file paper work.

>>76561133
You a phoneposter or something? Patlabor is in the filename.

>>76561041
We're not there yet.

Close, but not yet. We're the backstory of an incredibly boring cyberpunk setting dominated by increasingly stupid elites and sock-sniffing techbros.

>>76561164
patlabor? whats dat?

>>76561000
god you’re a boring person

>>76561200
Mecha anime centered on a police unit who use giant robots to fight crime.

>>76561244
wats mecha lol?

>>76561060
>Greg Ega
>always a treasure
He's shit. Dude can't write characters that are remotely human to save his life. They're just exposition bots.

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>hey /tg/ let's be creative
>NO THIS BOARD IS ONLY FOR NEGATIVITY AND GATEKEEPING FROM QST
>OMG I HATE EVERYTHING
so I know an anon here wanted me to sperg out whatever I'm drunk.
Patlabor is a deconstruction of Gundam: in Gundam they have fantasic medium sized robots with bad ass pilots. There's almost a religious gleam to it, the robots are so powerful and their power is so transcendent.
This became a cliche which was addressed in a couple of ways
1. gundam itself which had a post apocalyptic series where humanity was recovering from a catostrophe and the gundamn were just arena fighters for primative entertainment
2. eva, which literally made the mecha into god like alien things
3. and patlabor, which rationalized it all by saying mecha were impractical for warfare and space nonsense and the only realistic use for them would be as construction tools.
thus the only reason for a "combat" version of these worker mecha would be to stop a renegade, criminal pilot of a construction mecha.
thus patlabor: mobile police division.
Patlabor has pedestrian, low stakes adventures, the most eventful thing that ever happens is like a 9/11 tier false flag in the second movie.
The bad guys are largely disgruntled employees and hackers and renegade factions within the military.

3 is the only version of the dystopian near future that hasn't been done to death already.

It is not modern, it isn't near mordern. Its cyber punk without the punk, you are busting punks. Its conventional morality in the same setting.

>>76561262
Fuck off.

>>76561262
wats lol?

>>76562037
Thanks, anon. That sounds like a real interesting anime. I'll check it out. Is it only subbed, or is there a dubbed version?

Is it just me, or is everyone else here misusing the concept of deconstruction as applied to works of fiction? I thought the idea was to take a narrative device, portrayed in the standard cliche fashion, and then show either or both of the preconditions required to make them happen in a real world context or the consequences of them occurring in real life that are glossed over in standard uses of that device.

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>>76561060
No.
Ghost in the Shell is unarguably dystopian.
>not totally
splitting hairs. Neither is cyberpunk in general then.

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>>76561000
>Accidentally makes all modern cyberpunk media look like childs play

>>76563244
This board has a real problem with literary criticism.

>>76561000
Armored Core
Chrome is the largest of the two mega-corps competing for power. They're definitely not above using underhanded methods to gain an edge, like funding a terrorist organization that attacks the other mega-corp.
On the other hand, the districts under its influence are well structured and there's no indication of being particularly dystopian. After a great war that resulted in the collapse of both mega-corps, the new organization carrying the efforts to reconstruct adopts their social policies.

Similarly, Ace Combat 3 shows the conflict raising from a crash between two mega-corps but the life of an ordinary citizen doesn't seem worse than the real world.

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>>76561060
GitS is literally about how small people don´t get fucked over for now because doing it isn´t profitable right at this moment. But when it happened and the victim miraculously survived, they could basically suck a big one and shut up.

Even the happy-go-luck police officers in Patlabour were an org literally founded to surpress labour conflicts during a period of intensive, state-backed infrastructure construction efforts.

>>76564389
So, basically just like real life?

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>>76561000
That just sounds like a cope anon. We're already seeing very plainly that megacorps and money in government are a negative for most people and are causing immense amounts of terrible bullshit.
Pretending they'd be good without drastic systemic changes that would take away the core tenets of a cyberpunk setting is just trashy.

>>76564453
IRL you theoretically have legal recourses and those companies will at least agree to throw some money at you to not be bothered.

>>76561107
nah, by its very nature the system is pretty negative - or evil if you prefer that term.
You need to remember that the reason you can have a cellphone is thanks to cobalt slave miners, child labor in india, and human rights violations in china though as inevitably happens when industry is outsourced to another country, china is hitting the tipping point where their own working class is demanding more rights so now industry is starting to migrate out of china and into SEA, africa, and india
>>76561181
eh by boring you mean like, mundane and mind numbing suffering

>>76564389
GitS isn't about small people but they do get fucked over on a regular basis, like in any cyberpunk setting.

>>76564453
except with worse consequences cause the tech allows it.

>>76564506
>the mcdonalds hot coffee lady
>ended up dying of complications from the severe burns she recieved
>never had her bills fully covered and was the victim of an amazingly run smear and legal campaign that become the poster boy for the 'frivolous' lawsuits big corporations claim are so prevalent and abusive
theoretically I have the ability to become the president of the US too

>>76564521
>except with worse consequences cause the tech allows it.
That's technology regardless of how optimistic the setting is. If there's mind upload and crime is still a thing, you're going to get hell cubes.

>>76564540
>theoretically I have the ability to become the president of the US too
Source? From what I read is she was paid a large part of what she wanted and died in 2004.

>>76564572
>Ransomware in a cyberpunk setting

I am really suprised how optimistic cyberpunk writer were when IRL we can imagine people running automated global abduction schemes from other people´s computers.

>>76564572
Only if the story says so.

There's plenty of stories where the setting has massive potential for terrible stuff happening but it just doesn't happen.
It does in GitS.

>>76564540
Actually had to look this up, only one part of this was right.
>became the poster boy for the 'frivolous' lawsuits big corporations claim are so prevalent and abusive

>>76561000
Any mainstream media that isn’t trying to do some social critique bullshit? Media is mostly owned by the rich, why would they want to shittalk themselves and promote, even if minutely, anger towards the establishment from a docile population? Anyways the opposite of cyberpunk is solarpunk.

>>76564677
solarpunk isn't a thing

>>76564677
stop taking /lit/ memes seriously

>>76563487
Well, it's not the literature board and faggots like OP should FUCK OFF and GO THERE.

>>76564673
>>76564616
Depends on what you accept as a source, but if you dig deeper than wikipedia (though wiki has some general strokes for sure) and throw out things that proclaim it as frivolous and attempt to defend mcd's (since if mcd's had actually been the victim they wouldn't have payed out more than the originally offered 800$), you get
>3rd degree burns so bad it could've killed her
>mcd's coffee being this hot was something they had repeatedly received complaints, suits, and warnings about but kept it due to being an ideal temp for keeping things hot, making it last longer, and generating slightly higher profits
>note that this policy had coffee kept near boiling when served
>originally the lady only wanted coverage of her 20k+ medical bills but mcd's refused to offer more than 800$ which is what triggered the decision to sue
>the jury was so aghast by the whole case that they wanted McD's to pay punitive damage on top in excess of 2mil, but McD's managed to coopt an out of court settlement for ~500-600k
>this money ended up going to in home nursing care and medical treatment for ongoing complications from the burn damages until the lady died after ten years of severely reduced quality of life
you have to gather info from a lot of sites and compare basically. The biggest issue is that so much misinformation got propagated that people think, for instance, that she got the 2mil+ the court originally wanted to award her, that she fully healed without issue, that the coffee was normal temperature for what people are used to in home (the mcd's policy had coffee 30+ degrees hotter than average home coffeemaker coffee right out of the tap, and at that temp it causes severely damaging burns in 7-14 seconds which is a big problem if it gets in clothes), or that the coffee melted the cup.

>>76564749
Given that most of our inspiration come from pop-culture books and derivatives I'll kindly ask you to reconsider.

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>>76562037
>>76563224
What the fuck are you talking about?

Patlabor is a cop show with giant robots. There's no intent to deconstruct anything, it's just a cool premise.

Same for Evangelion, it doesn't have much to do with Gundam at all, it's just Anno and Sadamoto mashing together a bunch of Go Nagai and Ultraman references, with a more modern edgy 90s aesthetic. Then Anno went bonkers as the production went bankrupt and it went off the deep end but there's nothing about the treatment of mecha in Evangelion that you can't find in older manga/anime/toku.

I mean sure they rationalize stuff in their own way. But that's not deconstruction that's just worldbuilding.

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>>76565058
It's mecha deconstruction because they're used to demolish houses too.

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>>76565147
good one carlos

>>76563224
It's got a dub. By US Manga Corps. Good luck.

>>76562037
>Patlabor is a deconstruction of Gundam
I love reading 'mecha takes by people who don't watch mecha', almost as good as 'magical girl takes by people who saw Madoka once'

Aura Battler Dunbine is a deconstruction of Gundam:

it subverts the new age Newtype stuff by taking place in an explicitly fantastical universe

it subverts the concept of giant robots by having giant bug suits instead

it subverts the concept of Tomino names by giving the characters extra-retarded names.

10/10 masterpiece best mecha show in existence DON'T EVEN bother watching anything else

>>76565789
meme apart, aura machines are quickly superceded by aura fighters and aura bombers.

>>76565789
This is a joke, everyone. An actual "please laugh at this" joke, not a "I'm so stupid that I think I'm smart" joke.

IN A WORLD where characters express themselves SOLELY in tominospeak

ONE EMO BOY must watch tokusatsu shows from the 1970s in order pilot his mom.

MEANWHILE Kei and Yuri have an existential crisis even worse than in Dirty Pair Flash.

BUT THE JEWS attempt to use wiccan powers to take over Japan.

anime is now deconstructed.

>>76565385
>I love reading 'mecha takes by people who don't watch mecha', almost as good as 'magical girl takes by people who saw Madoka once'
Gonna love that ones. Its strange

>>76565385
>mecha takes by people who don't watch mecha
Gundam: Story about Gundam fighting Char.
Macross: Jet fighters and singing.
Votoms: The Gilgamesh and Balarant nations had until recently been locked in a century-old galactic war whose cause was long ago forgotten. Now, the war is ending and an uneasy truce has settled. The series follows a main character named Chirico Cuvie, a special forces Armored Trooper pilot and former member of the Red Shoulder Battalion, an elite force used by the Gilgamesh Confederation in its war against the Balarant Union.

>>76566156
Hah!
wrong as shit, VOTOMS is about the PAAFEKTO SOUJA

>>76563244
People typically use deconstructions as "What if X bu crapsack", even though you rarely get deconstructions like Nanoha where it's "what if a magical girl had self-confidence and didn't require constant cajoling by the mascot?"

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>>76566267
>what if a magical girl had self-confidence and didn't require constant cajoling by the mascot?

>>76566191
more like PAAFEKTO HASUBANDO

>>76566267
Nanoha is a completely unironic shounen battle series.

>>76561000
That’s just cyberpunk (or really just real life) from the perspective of an upper middle class corporate office worker and not from the perspective of a poorfag.

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>>76561000
You could have a kind of clean, utopian scifi society, and the PCs being criminals/insurgents/terrorists fighting against the administration of this beneficial system.

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>>76565931

>>76566706
The poorfags could have a good life as well if they didn't spend all their credits on weapons and other unsavory stuff.

>>76562037
Patlabor had military combat mechs in both movies.

>>76561000
Sounds like you're talking about Post-Cyberpunk, which is basically cyberpunk but not so bad as we feared and so the protagonists are working to preserve the system instead of tearing it down.

talking about genre fiction on /tg/ is impossible because all you get is a bunch of dunning-kruegers talking about what the genre really is about, man. And they’re never even close to right, usually because they’re incapable of anything but the most shallow observations or obsess over whatever TVTropes tells them are the genre conventions

>>76566874
Who told you that this is what post-cyberpunk consists in?

>Deconstruct this
>Deconstruct that
>Dismantle this
>Dismantle that
>Destroy
>Destroy
>Destroy
Why aren't people "building" things anymore? Deconstruction implies you should be building something up in it's place, not just tearing something down because it's "Fun." That's what children do.

>>76567086
No, building things is what children do. They take their lego box and they build toys.

>>76564389
>Even the happy-go-luck police officers in Patlabour were an org literally founded to surpress labour conflicts during a period of intensive, state-backed infrastructure construction efforts.
Won't someone please think of the drunken idiot rampaging through a residential neighborhood in a bulldozer? He's a member of the proletariat so he's being supressed, right??

>>76567114
you are literally stupid.

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>>76561000
>please post stories where being a bootlicking sycophant is a good thing

>>76567223
>We live in an era where society is more willing to stomach a future where civilization has completely collapsed, than a future where capitalism does not exist.

>>76567250
Specifically white western privileged liberals want that yes

>>76567262
I don't see how anyone can think extraction capitalism is sustainable without having the wool pulled over their eyes by Tom Marketing.

>post examples where big corporations and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutral

This isn't a deconstruction because it's wholly unrealistic and the "consequences" of it being applied to the genre would be utter fantasy. No major megacorporation has the population's best interests in mind because even if you had some kind of all-controlling altruistic philanthropist in charge, you still need to generate the massive profits and income to feed the titanic beast that is your megacorp. If you're looking for some kind of corpo-shill sci-fi series that has extremely little "punk" elements, you should just look somewhere that isn't actually Cyberpunk.

>>76567099
And adults just kick them over for fun, right retard?

>>76567288
Capitalism should by all means be considered only a tool in the varied toolbox of ideology, but once we picked it up, everything started to look like a nail.

>>76563470
Man of culture detected
Uchuu Kyoudai is also good, but more realistically boring in comparison to Planetes.

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Battle Network is the most cyberprep setting out there, tech has penetrated everything and it's everywhere but life is good and the worst thing that can happen are terrorists hacking tanks

>>76567443
Yes, retard, as a matter of fact they do it for a living.

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I'm gonna have to repost this:

Post-cyberpunk is not a movement or even a genre, it's a term made up by Lawrence Person to describe a handful of early 90s novels that happened to take place after, or at the end of an in-universe cyberpunk age.

He then went on to list a few things that some of those novels had in common, but they're so wildly different from one another that his categorization doesn't fully work, and he recognizes it.

The only thing they had in common was the fact that they acknowledged cyberpunk as something that happened in-universe.

And then, a bunch of people heard of the term "post-cyberpunk" out of context, and came up with their own definitions of it based on nothing but their intuition and hearsay.

Such as:
>cyberpunk based on Current Year
does not apply to the earlier post-cyberpunk novels, also may not be functional as a genre
>cyberpunk with middle-class or upper-class protags
not a new thing in cyberpunk
>soft cyberpunk
uselessly vague and requires an arbitrarily narrow redefinition of cyberpunk
>cyberpunk but without the dystopia
not distinguishable from regular scifi
>cyberpunk but optimistic
not a new thing in cyberpunk
>cyberpunk but the protags try to preserve the system
not a new thing in cyberpunk
>cyberpunk where the protag has a job/family
not a new thing in cyberpunk

The more you try to nail down post-cyberpunk, the more you end up with
a) regular cyberpunk under another name
b) regular scifi under another name
c) something that has nothing to do with the novels mentioned by Person.

And more often than not, these definitions are built without any reference to a corpus of works, they are constructed a priori, and retroactively applied to a variety of works that didn't intend to go beyond cyberpunk at all.

The main reason the term still gets circulated is because the word itself conveys a vague sense of novelty and maturity.

>>76567477
>but once we picked it up, everything started to look like a nail.
Same way heroin makes everything else in life taste like ash.

>>76567335
Only post that needed to be made in the whole thread.

>>76567562
yep. the only thing recently one could consider post-cyberpunk is altered carbon, in that the cyberpunk elements are old hat and long established, and even that is tenuous
but hey, even pedants need to feel pretentious

>>76567728
something like that yeah

>>76561000
Ghost in the Shell is this. Despite what a lot of people seem to think, it's not cyperpunk at all. They're literally law enforcement.

>>76565058
NGE was less based on Gundam and more on classic super robot tropes.
In a typical super robot, the father builds a giant robot so his son can fight invaders from space. NGE takes this basic formula and applies "realism" to it, by asking what would "logically" happen in such a scenario. As a result of this new environment, the classic, heroic tropes can no longer function. This is why NGE is widely considered a deconstruction of super mecha, because that is what deconstruction means.

Tldr; whether Anno intended it or not, NGE does deconstruct stuff.

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>>76567821
Who told you that cyberpunk characters can't be law enforcement?

>>76567114
He is right but he is also wrong.
Their job was basically protecting the wider public from people going nuts with construction equipment.
Because one guy did it and they had to call in the army to resolve it with considerable collateral damage.

Nine times out of ten it was basically a worker setting out to cause shit because his working conditions or life in general were shit.

But does his inability to effectively organise with other workers give him the right to attack members of the public and destroy private property (often residential property) with construction equipment?

>>76567335
Dunno. Maybe the Henry Ford of futuristic CEOs.
He did get sued by the Dodge brothers because his response to increased profits was always "Hire more workers, pay them more, lower prices!" when the Dodges and other shareholders wanted dividends.

>>76567853
>As a result of this new environment, the classic, heroic tropes can no longer function
But they can. As evidenced by one of the big sources of inspiration for NGE: Gunbuster.

Anno simply CHOSE to not have them function because he was getting depressed. Not because he wanted to deconstruct the genre.

Besides there's plenty of super-robot stuff that doesn't have goody two shoes heroic protagonists

>>76567934
I wouldn't call robocop a cyberpunk story.
It's more in line with a western mixed with a greek tragedy.

>>76567853
>This is why NGE is widely considered a deconstruction of super mecha, because that is what deconstruction means.
It's widely considered a deconstruction of super mecha because people do not have any knowledge of super mecha beyond hearsay.

>>76565058
>76565058
There's no pretending that things like Gundam and Macross were ubiquitous by the 80s. Taking a lot of the same mechanical design approach, and telling a more lighthearted story with it is indeed deconstructive. They're taking apart the narrative and looking at the individual pieces, and seeing how they might function in a different way.

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>>76567983
It mayhaps not be a cyberpunk story but it takes place in a default cyberpunk setting.

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>>76567983
Answer the question.
Who told you that cyberpunk characters can't be law enforcement?

And answer this question:
Who told you that cyberpunk stories can't also be westerns and greek tragedies?

>>76565058
It's also worth remembering that patlabor was a setting made by a group. Written by committee basically.
Generally speaking a deconstruction only works effectively if its made by a single writer as more people involved tends to mean the initial underlying theme gets lost.

It was also very much a product of its time when deconstruction wasn't incredibly popular in terms of storytelling in Japan.

>>76568049
>It mayhaps not be a cyberpunk story
it is though

>>76567821
you are stupid

>>76568020
This is not what EVA and Patlabor did.

>>76568069
>Who told you that cyberpunk characters can't be law enforcement?

No one respects the tank police

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>>76568069
>cyberpunk characters can't be law enforcement?

>>76567533
Explain yourself.

>>76568097
Cyberpunk is literally near future dystopia/shitty world science fiction where the cast is bucking the system. Where in GitS do they do that? Government agents stopping terrorism. There's nothing punk about working for, or being "the man".

>>76568069
I wasn't the one who said that.
But on the western thing. Robocop consistently follows the themes, tropes and even musical styling of a western.
Even Robocops helmet design invokes the image of characters like the lone ranger.

While it certainly takes place in a cyberpunk setting, it doesn't really follow the beats of a cyberpunk story outside of corporate tossers being tossers. Which wasn't exactly an unusual premise in westerns either with corrupt wealthy bankers and business tycoons being frequent villains in them.
The corporate crowd in robocop are also presented in a manner more consistent with the business tycoon character archetypes present in westerns. With villainous corrupt ones cavorting with outright criminals for their own gain, then more morally neutral perhaps even good ones. The CEO of OCP in Robocop isn't depicted as outright evil or even lawbreaking, just profit seeking. A neutral character in terms of morality.

>>76561000
What it sounds like is you want a police procedural set in the future. There's several Anime like this.
There's been a couple of TV series like this as well. The Minority Report TV series was like this and there was on in the 90s that was literally Law and Order with robots. I would think that Thunderbirds Go! would fit the bill as well.

>>76568187
that’s not what cyberpunk is. i’m sorry that you learned the definition from TVTropes or reddit or whatever. Japanese cyberpunk has always, always had a different relationship to the state
Cyberpunk isn’t just “neuromancer retold” over and over. Cyberpunk is about particular philosophical, social, political and economic anxieties born out of a certain time period and the predicted, projected and imagined technologies. why do you think so much western cyberpunk deals with anxiety about looming economic dominance by japan? why do you think japanese cyberpunk has different anxieties about the same thing? narrowing it down to “oh then protagonist has to be against the state!” shows a philistine way of thinking.

>>76568187
When they shut down a government-run brainwashing center / orphan workhouse
When they uncover a government conspiracy to control third-world countries and arrest the leader of section 6
When they run over the leader of section 1
When they arrest the boss of a robotics corporation for child trafficking and drug trafficking, and then arrest a colonel for having taken bribes from them
When they foil an attempt by the ministry of the interior to have them dissolved
When they thwart an attempt to embezzle public funds by a spy
When they make the minister of the interior punch himself in the face

And this is only in the first run of the manga

Shall I go on?

>>76568187
>the cast is bucking the system
>cyberpunk needs to star the punks to be punk
Gaywad

>>76568276
not to mention that section 9 goes against the state VERY FREQUENTLY

>>76561000
Transhuman Space can be played as a cyberpunk, albeit with slightly less cyberware and more biotech.
Pro tip: Ignore the artwork, it's very misleading and no one knows why SJG approved it in the first place.

>>76561016
Top fucking lel, no.

Even an overt cyberpunk dystopia would be preferable to the clown world hell we live in.

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>>76568208
>it doesn't really follow the beats of a cyberpunk story outside of corporate tossers being tossers
Are you fucking shitting me?

The protagonist is a victim of technological progress and uses it to get an edge on the people who wronged him. He goes rogue and fights back against the system.

>The CEO of OCP in Robocop isn't depicted as outright evil or even lawbreaking, just profit seeking. A neutral character in terms of morality.
And?
Where does it say in the big rulebook of cyberpunk fiction that every single corpo has to be a total scumbag?

So again, I ask:

Who told you that a cyberpunk story cannot also be a western and a greek tragedy?

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>>76568208
And the CEO of Silky Doll is depicted as outright heroic.

>>76567821
Most cyberpunk fiction has laaw enforncement as protagonists (Blade Runner, gits, robocob, etc)

Law enforcement protags are an excellent viewpoint to explore cyberpunk themes. They can get away with violence, they can show you how the system works, they can access every stratum of society, they're constantly confronted with the darkest aspect of the setting, and they can be faced with plenty of moral dilemmas.

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>>76568555
>faced with plenty of moral dilemmas.
I can imagine.

>>76568004
This, pretty much. And I speak as someone that likes EVA

>>76568187
The funny thing is, both Maximum Mike Pondsmith and William Gibson have both said openly what Cyberpunk is about and so many people get it wrong. Cyberpunk is about retaining your individuality and personality by pushing back against cultural homogenization and authoritarianism.

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>>76567250
We shall all return to monke, and trade with coconut shells.

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>>76568683
oogah

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>>76568712
>fluffy hair

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>>76568726
the floof is irrefutable!

>>76568637
>retaining your individuality
To be subsumed by a virtuous cause is better than to be unique.
The absence of unambiguous virtuous causes has caused many, understandably, to assume that all causes are invirtuous and uniqueness is unambiguously a good thing.

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>>76568683
I only deal in MWh.

>>76568797
Nobody cares, moralfaggot.

>>76568797
Lack of self identity distinguishable from others is a symptom of serious mental health issues. Schizophrenia and borderline personality disorder are no joke. Also, absolute conformity causes a sickness in the culture; it killed Sparta and caused the rise of Fascism in Germany. Many genocides have been done using your argument as the excuse.

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>>76568797
>To be subsumed by a virtuous cause is better than to be unique.

Fuck off moralfaggot. I will go against your morals just to fucking spite you and your ilk.

>>76568797
>To be subsumed by a virtuous cause is better than to be unique.
Always count on 4chan to make bold, declarative statements about subjective discussions.

>>76568911
Hello?
This is the CEO of Based, ltd.

I would like to offer you a position.

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>>76568929
Oh, while I am honored, I must refuse your offer, out of spite.

>>76568964
BIG based

>>76568712
Her boss is an old monkey. Very wise.

>>76569029
Apeface and his gorilla girl

granddaughter, preferably. She's not that old.

>>76568555

Well, cyberpunk is linked with the noir genre. Still, I'd venture to say that Motoko is something else from a hardboiled loner detective.

>>76569079
She's a fuckin ninja. A tsuchigumo. That's pretty punk.

so cyberpunk without the punk?
cybermodelcitizen?

>>76569330
Cyberprep seems to be the preferred term.

>>76569104

Ninjas are the ultimate cogs in the machine

>>76569347
nah they're from rogue clans

>>76561000
>and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutral
So you mean normal cyberpunk like Ghost in the Shell?

>>76569357
There were two regions that fought and maintained their independance without being part of the samurai system, but the majority of Ninja likely were just Samurai with additional training for night ambush operations, special weapons and intellingence/scout work.

>>76569391
the government in GitS is a bunch of sneaky assholes trying to fuck each other over though.

>>76569408
yeah but in folklore and stuff

>>76569104

What I meant is that I think (most) of GITS stories aren't really cyberpunk-ish in the same character-driven vein of Blade Runner

>>76569450
They're really cyberpunk, but they're more plot-driven

>>76569450
>Blade Runner
Another example of Lawfult Neutral Law Enforcement vs Terrorists.

>>76564466
>Pretending they'd be good without drastic systemic changes that would take away the core tenets of a cyberpunk setting is just trashy.
I have this idea about a setting mixing ancient greece with scifi in which mega-corps would be the equivalent of the clans (oikos). It would produce everything its members would need, from food to military equipment, but it wouldn't be exactly like a corporation.
I haven't worked the idea enough yet, but I find it interesting enough to remember it from time to time.

>>76564512
We could have had cellphones without that, just not a new model every few years that we didn't even need.

Idk fuckin atlas shrugged or something? Corporations and governments are gay and even people who work in them know this

>>76569486
there's a french comic that's a scifi re-telling of the iliad, try to find it

>>76569480

True, not all cyberpunk is overtly rebellious. I wasn't arguing about that.

I'll just point that Deckard is not a cop but a private eye, in any case.

>>76568343
Hell section 9 is a pretty good case study of how a cyberpunk society could avoid becoming a dystopian hellhole. The governments resources and cutting edge tech let it keep the corps in check, and internally the bureaucracy, sheer size, and constant departmental pissing matches make it difficult to easily subvert. The stories that end with section 9 uncovering a conspiracy usually start with the typical left hand vs right hand bullshit common in government. It's hard to gain control if all it takes is another department stumbling into your criminal operation completely by accident to ruin it.

The kind of corruption you see in GITS isn't some huge cabal of people trying to control society or keep the underclass down, it's individuals or small groups trying to abuse the system for their own personal enrichment. It's the same mundane kind of corruption that happens today and has been happening since the dawn of time, and the fact that section 9 finds these people and takes them down is proof that the system does work. Despite the settings weird, scary tech and its philosophical musings on the nature of the soul ultimately most of the really bad, worrying, and dangerous applications of this tech are considered illegal and treated as such by the government and society at large.

This is one of the reasons I like GITS so much. The people and society feel recognizable even though the world is totally different. People are still struggling with the same problems humanity has had to deal with since we first crawled out of the muck. Technology hasn't necessarilly made this process worse or better, it's just changed how we engage with it.

>>76569480
2049 wasn’t exactly about being neutral

>>76569546
>and the fact that section 9 finds these people and takes them down is proof that the system does work.
absolutely not

Section 9 is NOT the system.

It's a barely legal strike force that Aramaki managed to put together by playing the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of the Interior against each other, and taking advantage of the precarious position of the new prime minister. S9 are an anomaly.

They don't answer to anybody. Their very existence is a symptom of the system's dysfunctional nature

>and dangerous applications of this tech are considered illegal and treated as such by the government and society at large.
as is the case in every cyberpunk setting, but it doesn't prevent the government from using that technology themselves.

Technology definitely has made things a lot worse in GitS, there can be no denying that it is a dystopia, sometimes in a literally cartoonish way. Not every part of the setting is a shithole, but that's also true of most cyberpunk settings.

>>76566156
>Gundam
>Macross
>VOTOMS
I reiterate; 'mecha takes by people who don't watch mecha'
All you're missing from the bingo card is TTGL and Eva

>>76569703
aw yeah I remember that

>TTGL IS A RECONSTRUCTION OF WHAT EVA DECONSTRUCTED BY DECONSTRUCTING EVA

>>76564466
Tankie please fuck off. Your ideology has never worked.

>>76569564
I honestly forgot that movie even happened.

So what if we made cyberpunk something its not? You know it has "punk" in the title right? Meaning you're rebelling against authority in some shape or form.

>>76568555
Neo-Noir tends to be a fairly common framework for Cyberpunk stories, although you need to keep in mind there needs to be a reason for the "punk" elements to exist, or it's just a sci-fi story involving a criminal in a futuristic era. It's one thing to involve a terrorist who has cybernetic implants from some previous war who got PTSD and went mad. It's a completely different thing for those cybernetic implants to have come from a doctor in the backroom of a barcade using shit he rigged together from stolen implants and his own homemade machine fabrications.

>>76561657
>implying I give a shit about characters compared to the ideas on display
The only time I've ever cared about love was an ayy for whose species birth is the death of the mother coming to terms with his wife choosing to give birth/die the traditional way after a whole book was spent reinventing pregnancy (he does a good job turning the familiar into body horror too).

>>76569949
Eh I don't think that's a big difference, the determining factor would be more if those implants are what caused him to go mad.

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This is a much better futuristic hyper-capitalist game than anything else ever made
>like 2-3 corporations rule entire galaxies with generic names like "megacorp"
>not only do they engineer freely available weapons for sale to the public they also make ships, employ bandits, routinely destroy entire planets to make room for resorts etc
>even the fucking gangs are all for-hire
>when you save somebody's life they still make you pay upwards of 40k bolts for a weapon you NEED to save the galaxy
>even the fucking hero is a corporate stooge
>even you are

>>76570166
fuckin noice

>>76569819
nah lol it sounds like you just haven’t read any of the foundational works

>MUH ANTI-CAPITALIST MESSAGE
>MUH PUNK THEMES
haha cyberarm cannon goes brrrrt

>>76568169
inb4
>teachers bad!

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>>76565147
>

>>76568155
tanky boys, tanky girls, woh oh oh

Why does everyone think that Cyberpunk is anti-capitalism? If anything, it's a protest against the individual will of people being taken away. Capitalism is economic free will of the individual.

>>76570561
but muh peak-capitalism

>>76570268
Enjoying anything for 'themes' is fucking stupid.

>>76570691
>Enjoying anything
>/tg/ of 2020

>>76570582
"Peak-capitalism" isn't capitalism as it's used by communists. What they are really talking about is feudalism. Oddly enough, it's the end stage of socialism in 100% of cases where it's been applied. Giant corps don't exist in a pure capitalist society as they need strong enforced rules to protect their own economic status while keeping others from encroaching on it.

>>76570691
>enjoying art bad
>mongrel geekdom sperging good

>>76563487
Every fandom is borderline illiterate

>>76563244
Part of the issue is the asshat pseudo-intellectuals that say they are deconstructing things but in reality aren't making legitimate critiques but shitting all over the subject. This leads other to believe that "deconstructing" is making a literary device shit on itself without any meaning.
The problem with trying to deconstruct Cyberpunk is that it's too real. You can challenge the tech but you can't ignore the partnership of giant corps and governments sapping away the the worth of normal people being the actual status of today. You can't deconstruct reality without engaging in some serious lying.

>>76570561
The notion of Cyberpunk being about "high-tech, low-life" implies heavily a massive abundance of the tools that lowlives have access to and the increasing resentment and rebelliousness of future generations being emboldened by the shifting access to what exists in the future. While someone could easily come up with a Punk notion of a Fascist or a Communist future, the issue is that when the state controls everything, there is extremely little room for individualism, and thus rebelliousness and "punk" attributes are rarely given room to breathe, grow, and blossom.

A hyper-corporatist society wouldn't care to deal with the junkies and murderers the block over if it meant that they would simply not fuck with their shipments, and would slaughter them wholesale given any fiscal and legal justification to do so. They have no incentive to care about human life beyond its ability to generate profits, and the people below naturally resent them for the dehumanizing hell that they foster, but the people below are given free reign to live, exist, and show their own resentment in public. A Cyberpunk story in some kind of futuristic North Korea couldn't exist because the amount of rebels would be extremely small and not indicative of a culture, they would be spotted the instant they attempt to do anything subversive, and even if they managed to get cybernetic implants and augmentation, there's nothing to imply the common lowlife in their region would (most probably would never be permitted access) and that lowlives in their region exist without instantly being thrown in prison.

>>76570724
>implying minarchy doesn't lead to a corp-police combine blossoming into a state and ending up at feudalism even quicker

>>76568823
Yet (You) cared enough to reply, fag.
>>76568896
>don't cooperate with other people like you or you're schizophrenic or a Spartan or a Nazi or something
Libertarianism is a mental dysfunction
>>76568911
You won't do shit of importance, stirnerfag, and you never have. Your ideology is the purest expression of jealousy-born-from-weakness.

>>76571220
>t. seething marxist still mad at Stirner for dabbing on Marx's shitty dogmatic world view

>>76571247
I'm not a marxist, faghoula, but stirnerism is ever so transparently a cope for the powerless. "I'll act only in my own benefit- any day now!" Ad infinitum.

>>76571320
You don't even understand the point Stirner makes, top lel.

>>76571220
>>don't cooperate with other people like you or you're schizophrenic or a Spartan or a Nazi or something
>Libertarianism is a mental dysfunction
That is a poor straw-man argument. Cooperation is a hallmark of humans as much as individualism. The two elements acting in concert and pulling in different directions in the psyche is how normal, healthy humans are. You can act in cooperation with others and form groups without loosing your self identity or completely conforming.
Completely abandoning your sense of self is destructive and unhealthy. Whether it's to a cult, a political group, or a TV show, it's wrong to do so and even more wrong to insist that someone else do so.

>>76571148
I can't think of a more Cyberpunk reality that current year China. It fits the bill comepletely all the way to individuals and small groups using the most advance tech available to act out against the system, both government and corps.
Sure, some of them are ideologues, but much more of them are nihilistic outsiders.
So yeah, Cyberpunk is anti-authoritarian, and in the case of it being applied to modern China, pro capitalism.

>>76561000
So, ordinary sci-fi then? What a fucking waste of trips.

>>76570561
Because it was an inversion of sci-fi anti-communist literature of the time such as 1984 in which the State takes over the market and controls everything; in cyberpunk the reverse happens and the megacorporations take over the market and controls the State instead.

>>76571148
>While someone could easily come up with a Punk notion of a Fascist or a Communist future, the issue is that when the state controls everything, there is extremely little room for individualism, and thus rebelliousness and "punk" attributes are rarely given room to breathe, grow, and blossom

Course it can. Just look at any banana republic in the world today, chock full of anarchist groups.

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>>76561000
>post examples where big corporations and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutral and its just a few renegade criminals and political extremists making life difficult in the near future
The inhabitants of Todos Santos may live in a surveilled cyberpunk termite mound, but the surrounding city of los angeles is basically robocop detroit.

>>76571503
>Because it was an inversion of sci-fi anti-communist literature of the time such as 1984 in which the State takes over the market and controls everything; in cyberpunk the reverse happens and the megacorporations take over the market and controls the State instead.
If this is waht you see then you failed to understand what you read. Go back and find the interviews done by Gibson, Dick, etc and see what they were really writing about. Honestly, Orson Wells's 1984 is a Cyberpunk novel all the way to the bone.

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Toha Heavy Industries was the good guys in BIOMEGA.

>>76568441
>Where does it say in the big rulebook of cyberpunk fiction that every single corpo has to be a total scumbag?
It's right there in the book of "I've heard of cyberpunk but never actually read or watched anything."
Real popular these days for some reason.

>>76568637
Too bad none of their books are about that.

>>76569049
We know she's probably older than anyone else on the team, including Ishikawa.
And with a total conversion, she can be any age.
>>76569391
Portrayal in GITS varies between continuities. SAC probably gives us the most in-depth portrayal of government, and probably the most sympathetic - and the best people we're shown are professional flip-flopping survivors and ultra-conservative hawks because almost everybody else is both ruthless and incompetent.
Pretty far from the "government bad" stereotype people who've never seen or read anything cyberpunk live with, but still not exactly good guys. More like "realistically crooked" - especially the part where the most sympathetic politicians end up being the ones the team doesn't quite agree with, but at least knows they can be trusted to be honest and reliable.

>>76565385
Recomend us actual mecha media. Got a sci-fi game coming and I'd like to partake.

>>76571629
>then you failed to understand what you rea
What's your take then, oh enlightened one?

>Orson Wells's 1984 is a Cyberpunk novel all the way to the bone
Right destination, wrong train track. Read my comment again.

>>76571702
Pondsmith never wrote a novel to my knowledge. Most of the fluff he wrote for his games rarely gave us much of a peek as to the motivations of the characters or much of their personalities expect for the players to play against.
Gibson's novels never spell out a clear meaning to anything because he's not wired that way. His novels usually have a characters trying to weave their way through the mess without getting hurt or pinned down. They tend to be nihilists and tend to be passively against anything that requires them to commit or conform.

>>76569391
>GitS jap govt
>good
>neutral

Not in the original movie, no. The very first scene is Major Kusanagi killing an (implied American diplomat) on behalf of another Jap Govt dept to prevent a Jap citizen from defecting, false-flagging as a terrorist. The entire plot revolves around one Jap govt dept trying to fuck the other dept over an AI. The spider-tank they fight is their own. The Major's body is blasted by Jap military snipers. Hell, it's the entire motive of Major Kusanagi's acceptance of the AI's offer to merge spirits (translated as "ghost"); earlier when Kusanagi talks to Batou on the boat, she says that practically all her body is now Jap military tech and she'd have no body to turn to (literally) if she resigns, hence why she continues doing what she does.

That's some interesting methods for employee retention they got there.

>>76571862
First, go look up what the masters of cyberpunk have said and you won't need to hear it from me.
Second, what's the difference between tyranny from one group vs another? It's tyranny. When it's a tyranny that uses tech as a tool to implement oppression, you have a cyberpunk setting.

>>76571879
>Gibson's novels never spell out a clear meaning to anything because

he often doesn't know what he's writing, he just kinda put it together and it happened to fly. E.g. he didn't even know how computers work until after publishing Neuromancer.

>>76572008
>what's the difference

Seems I'm not the one talking out of MY ass here...

Gibson, at least, mentions reading Orwell and similar anti-fascist lit in the run-up to writing Neuromancer.

>>76570561
Cyberpunk was created and exists as a genre that critiques existing social relations within capitalism through a sci-fi lense. It was created in direct response and reference to dystopic sci fi depicting evil space commies and utopian sci fi depicting nice space commies.
Also your views of capitalism are childish.

>>76571629
1984 was not written by Orson Welles.

>>76572098
>Also your views of capitalism are childish.
The very crux of Adam Smith's works is that giving people economic free will improves the economic wealth of the nation. Everything else is his observations and evidence to support his conclusion. Later researchers and authors expound on it but that's what it is.
The communist flip on it is that when you allow people to make their own economic choices, some will do better than others and then turn and use their riches to enslave those that didn't do as well.
That's it. That's what you get with a bachelors in economic theory.

>>76572158
Orwell, crossed my wires there. Sorry

>>76572000
They later mention that part of what makes Togusa so reliable is that he's still almost entirely human. Outside of economic screws nobody really has anything on him. He can't be hacked. The government can't take his body away. He's 100% natural, and that makes him ironically make reliable. The Japanese government is a government. It is neither evil nor good. It exists in an ecosystem of other major global powers where its advanced cybernetics keeps it alive. A rogue scientist with a sentient AI is absolutely not something that can be allowed to leave because it would compromise the integrity of Japan's position in the ecosystem. The world of Oshii's GitS is NOT peaceful. Everyone is fresh off WW3 and itching for WW4.

>>76568166
Dredd predates cyberpunk, though not by a lot and was probably inspired by a number of events and ideas in common.

>>76572072
>Gibson, at least, mentions reading Orwell and similar anti-fascist lit in the run-up to writing Neuromancer
Sure, and this was his take one it. His big change was to make the protagonist driven purely by self interest rather than by some ideology or a representation of good. Also, he updated the setting based on his observations and his idea of were things could go from where he was in the mid 80s.

>>76572329
Mike Pondsmith crystalized the concept of Cyberpunk but has acknowledged in interviews that it goes back much further than the 80s. He has stated that he sees Dicks writings as cyberpunk or proto-cyberpunk.

>>76563470
I love Planetes but I'd hesitate to call it cyberpunk.

>>76562037
Cool, I'll check it out.
Also I read the entire post in Falcos voice.

>>76561000
>where big corporations and the government are basically good or at least lawful neutral
So already better then real life?

>>76572299
>a government. It is neither evil nor good

Uhh... most people would argue that doing a lot of bad shit makes you a bad Govt. I agree it's open to debate, but the GitS Jap Govt hardly strikes one as the "good guy" here.

>>76572350
>His big change was to make the protagonist driven purely by self interest rather than by some ideology or a representation of good

I think I see where you're getting at, but that view is a bit broad to me. It opens up the question, is it cyberpunk if it's just the story of self-interested revolutionaries in a fascist sci-fi regime?

>his idea of were things could go from where he was in the mid 80s

Nah, it seems he just pieced things together without really having a real clue about how things work. Stross on the other hand is extremely ahead of the ball in such matters, so his near-future works are worth exploring... although he is a raging feminazi.

>>76572387
This also opens up the question; where do you draw the line between cyberpunk and sci-fi dystopia?

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>>76572329
>>76572387
Metropolis was the first cyberpunk story.
Not only did it coin the themes of tech giants vs the common pleb and all the issues of machines becomming more and more intermingled with life, but even the aethetics of the monolithic urban canyon devoid of humanity.

>>76572553
>Metropolis was the first cyberpunk story
It's at least an influence on the genre. Especially the part where Freder works the factory, or the Moloch scene.

>>76565147
Based

>>76568555
/tg/ of all boards should know that the original Cyberpunk 2020 had "cop" as one of the available roles

>>76572553
Metropolis shares cyberpunk's themes but not its language and imagery. That's important too.

>>76571792
>And with a total conversion, she can be any age.
Not in the original continuity, cyborgs are supposed to look their age

>>76570561
lolbertarians, everyone

>>76572764
>doesn't understand basic economics
>spergs anyway

Marxists, literally

Another point in the "GITS gov is evil" is the episode where the Japanese DEA had actual no shit death squads being used domestically that the protagonists fought.

>>76572299
yeah well it's pretty full of antagonistic characters who don't seem to care about the well-being of others.

>>76572000
Small correction, Motoko does not choose to merge with the Puppetmaster in the movie, it's done without her explicit consent. The resulting creature is fine with it, but Motoko herself doesn't say "okay let's go for it", she just has a dazed expression on her face as it happens.

Unlike in the source material where she actually accepts it.

>>76572526
>It opens up the question, is it cyberpunk if it's just the story of self-interested revolutionaries in a fascist sci-fi regime?
>This also opens up the question; where do you draw the line between cyberpunk and sci-fi dystopia?
I think this is the same question asked in two different ways. Scifi dystopia is a setting, a backdrop, and can be used to tell a ll kinds of stories. An epic hero story would be one where the protagonist has the goal to make the world a better place. A drama would be one where the main character faces challenges and his goal is to overcome those challenges to return to his own state of normal. A punk story is where the protagonist puts himself at odds with the accepted norm because he internally driven to do so for his own gratification. Any of them can end with a happy ending or a tragedy.
I can imagine a decent cyberpunk story where the authorities aren't evil but simply without the means to address the problems society is facing. The protagonist hates the the fact that everyone simple accepts that things are failing. In his angst, he turns to bank robbery via hacking so that he can burn out rather than fade away.
Hell, I would describe Bonnie and Clyde as punks for the depression era. They weren't heroes, they weren't revolutionaries, they weren't ideologically driven. They were self serving nihilists.
To quote Pondsmith: Punk - from an early 1980's rock music style that epitomized violence, rebellion, and social action in a nihilistic way. He even said in a recorded interview at PAX that cyberpunk is a very broad genre that incorporates a lot of different types of stories that is different from other genres of scifi in that the protagonist isn't a hero.

>>76572778
Your idiosyncratic notion of what ideal capitalism looks like is not even really a question of economics. You are not describing an economic reality but pushing an ideology.

>>76572553
I could see that. At the very least, it's proto-cyberpunk.

>>76572892
yes but not more than that. Cyberpunk has a language, that Metropolis doesn't have.

>>76572299
>Everyone is fresh off WW3 and itching for WW4.
I'd have to rewatch it but I'm pretty sure it's fresh off WW4 and itching for WW5.

At least that's how it is in the other continuities

>>76572948
Honestly that just makes it worse.

>>76572526
I completely agree that they're not the good guy. They're just not the bad guy. They do some rather vile things, but they also do shit like take in refugees when they very much do not have to. It is a nation-state that values self-defense first and that makes sense because it's been involved in numerous world wars and has to value its self defense or its neighbors will eat it. GiTS is not the peaceful world of 2020 when a nation can abolish its military and shrug.

>>76572948
Yeah in the stand alone complex series the world went through nuclear world war 3 and non-nuclear world war 4.
Most of the cast fought in at least one of these wars.
But yeah the major powers are all itching for some kinda confrontation. Mostly the American Empire it seems.

>>76572702
>>76572909
Could you elaborate on the language aspect?
Tech speak ala 'I hacked the virus to breach the firewall, fuck those suits' would hardly be the defninition of an entire genre.

>>76572008
>When it's a tyranny that uses tech as a tool to implement oppression, you have a cyberpunk setting.
adding this to my collection of illiterate ideas about what cyberpunk is.

>>76573035
>but they also do shit like take in refugees when they very much do not have to.
That would also depend on the version you're talking about. In some, the refugees are exploited and oppressed, and the government tries to weasel its way out of protecting some of them.

You need a fairly strict definition of "bad" in order to claim that the government in GitS as a whole aren't the bad guys. Originally the prime minister is a full-on WW2 era caricature.

>>76573115
I am not saying it's the definition, I'm saying it's part of the definition.

Techno-thrillers for example share cyberpunk's language, but not its themes and narrative focus.

Metropolis shares its themes and narrative focus, but not its language.

It takes a lot of things to have a cohesive genre.

>>76572880
>REEEE IT DOESN'T WORK

Except it literally does, everywhere, from bronze age abos to first, second and third world nations and even fucking prisons

>>76573166
Personally i think the best description of GitS (and for that matter, things like akira, gunbuster, and other anime of the era) relationship to the state speaks more to the japanese relationship to the state in that time period. That is: conflicted and generally viewing the state as caretakers of society that have partially, but not fully, gone astray. It tends to be about conflict within the state, between state actors and business, their alternating competition and collaboration. it’s both rather more pessimistic than american scifi (which tends towards a belief that there are Good and Bad governments) and optimistic (for the same reason).

>>76572234
>The communist flip on it is that when you allow people to make their own economic choices, some will do better than others and then turn and use their riches to enslave those that didn't do as we

No.
Communists believe that the capitalist owning class have competing interests to the working class, and that this brings them into conflict. It does not care about how either side got there.

>The very crux of Adam Smith's works is that giving people economic free will improves the economic wealth of the nation. Everything else is his observations and evidence to support his conclusion. Later researchers and authors expound on it but that's what it is.

Adam Smith reaches many conclusions, but even he believed in limiting economic freedom, and that certain types of economic activity are inherently problematic (He especially despises landlords).
>>76572387
>>76572701
Whoie I absolutely believe pondsmith has something worthwhile to contribute as he clearly loves the genre and helped codify it, and I 100% believe that law enforcement is a valid position from which to engage with the types of critiques inherent to cyberpunk.
It must be acknowledged that night city is a retarded setting and pondsmith's own writing has little to nothing to do with even his own conception of cyberpunk.

>>76573242
Well in any case they tend to be the antagonist, and are rarely well-intentioned.

>>76573252
worth noting, at least for the benefit of others, that a landlord was something a lot different in Adam Smith’s time to what we call a landlord today.

>>76573252
Night City is retarded. It is also an extremely cool setting that is more culturally valuable than most political literature.

>>76573317
How so?

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>>76561000
>Deconstructing
You fucking illiterate moron. The word you want is "subvert", not "deconstruct". Deconstruction of cyberpunk would merely be breaking it down into its subsequent elements for individual analysis. Stop listening to idiots on the internet and go read Derrida.

Second, you can't deconstruct cyberpunk in that way without fundamentally falling for the cyberpunk genre's core criticism, especially when denial of that criticism (the invisible hand will correct the market! the good in people will correct the injustices inherent to the system!) is objectively falsifiable. Even moreso with the neoliberal "a few bad apples" sophism. Rather, if you want to subvert cyberpunk, you need to see it on its values: cyberpunk is How Far Can We Fall? The degeneracy, the failure of society, the failure of the system, the failure of the protagonist to do anything but the cynical, self-preservational thing, or to die for doing the selfless thing.

If you want to subvert that, you need to turn it around: How High Can We Rise? THAT is a rare one, but typically your Rodenberry-style utopias, humans past the material limitations and searching themselves to find the best version they can be. Of course they fail sometimes, but it's not reason not to try again and become better.

>>76567086
This was actually an issue Derrida had when coining Deconstructionism. To deconstruct implies that it can be put back together again or put together in a new way, that it isn't an act of destruction, but of action. This is why I get an aneurysm every time I hear "deconstruction" used like OP.

>>76573317
No it's the same thing. His objections are to the basic landlord-tenant relationship.
>>76573326
How do you define "Culturally valuable"?

>>76573343
>THAT is a rare one
eh not really, utopian scifi isn't that exceptional

>>76573352
Based, as opposed to cringe.

politics are cringe.

>>76572872
>A punk story is where the protagonist puts himself at odds with the accepted norm because he internally driven to do so for his own gratification

Interesting take. The keyword I'm getting here is destructive self-gratification.

>>76573115
>'I hacked the virus to breach the firewall, fuck those suits' would hardly be the defninition of an entire genre

On the other hand, this IS a really decent 1-liner summary of cyberpunk...

>>76573242
Yes. Patlabor is more self-aware than GitS in this regard, as it explicitly makes it part of the plot that Jap militants are complicit as well and in fact make up a large segment of the Govt; whereas GitS at times does sink into "lol fucking Muricans amirite" territory

>>76573383
Pondsmith very much uses his platform to talk about political issues dude.

>>76573352
no, a tenant and a landlord were different things though similar.
>>76573333
the essential difference is that in the time of adam smith a landlord refered to one who owned tracts of land which others would work, and he would collect from those tenants a Rent, which was essentially a substantial tax on what they collected. depending on time and place, this could be currency or (i believe more often) a portion of what they produced
it is worth noting that 1 these are the landlords that you might see being referenced by mao in tepid twitter posts about killing landlords. 2 these landlords still exist, notably in turkey, the phillipines, brazil, latin america in general, etc.
in smiths own words
>This rent may be considered as the produce of those powers of nature, the use of which the landlord lends to the farmer. It is greater or smaller according to the supposed extent of those powers, or in other words, according to the supposed natural or improved fertility of the land. It is the work of nature which remains after deducting or compensating everything which can be regarded as the work of man.
>The rent of land, therefore, considered as the price paid for the use of the land, is naturally a monopoly price. It is not at all proportioned to what the landlord may have laid out upon the improvement of the land, or to what he can afford to take; but to what the farmer can afford to give.

>>76573434
Cringe.

>>76573367
Sorry, I meant *notable* fully automated luxury gay space communism stories. Other than Star Trek, they're just not very popular. We have a much larger tendency to imagine the end of the world before the end of capital.

>>76573435
Pay renbts

>>76573418
>GitS at times does sink into "lol fucking Muricans amirite" territory
gits and it’s adaptations are often just straight up nationalistic and in fascinating ways. SAC2 is most notable because japan’s claim to success is that it is the sole producer of radiation scrubbers (it doesn’t take freud to see how this fits into the national psyche) and they reclaimed the islands russia took after WWII. Though they only touch on it, the show seems sympathetic to the repeal of article 9 as well. the original movie certainly has a ton of anxiety about the loss of japanese culture as a result of their success.

>>76573343
>Deconstruction of cyberpunk would merely be breaking it down into its subsequent elements for individual analysis
Not OP, but I think subversion is part of deconstruction.

>denial of that criticism (the invisible hand will correct the market! the good in people will correct the injustices inherent to the system!) is objectively falsifiable
Explain this in simple English.

>>76573418
>Interesting take. The keyword I'm getting here is destructive self-gratification.
When you look at the punk movement of the 70s and 80s, it could very well be called self destructive. Certainly, many died young and without much that others would say was a contribution.
Divorced of genre, who would you call a punk?

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>>76565789
Lyrical Nanoha is a deconstruction of Gundam.

It subverts the near-magical abilities of Newtypes and ace-pilots by it explicitly being magic.

It subverts the concept and genre of giant robots by just replacing them with (progressively less) little girls.

It subverts the concept of foundational quality by being a spin-off of a porn game about incest ninjas.

10/10 masterpiece, would ship all the lesbians during again.

>>76573435
>The rent of land, therefore, considered as the price paid for the use of the land, is naturally a monopoly price
>implying rent is free of market forces

Lesson here: Even great economists can be kinda brainlet.

>>76573510
Human populations are not ideal gases. We are often unwilling to abandon our homes.

>>76573510
actually i think the lesson here is that you can’t read and are ignorant on the subject since you don’t seem to have even a shadow of an understanding of what he means here by monopoly price, or what rent means in this context, or what market forces are. sad

>>76573483
The funny thing about GITS version of fuck murrica is that the empire is basically a slightly more aggressive and honest cold war era USA continuing into the tech age.

>>76573489
>self destructive
Cyberpunk is also destructive to others. Protagonists rarely give a shit about collateral damage, and victimising "teh suits" is itself an objective. No paragons of ethics here.

>Divorced of genre, who would you call a punk?
As you say, a rebel against accepted societal norms, especially one who perceives oneself to be relatively unfairly disenfranchised. But that's out of topic I think; I'm most interested in the definition of "cyberpunk".

>>76573510
Basically every economist from Keynes to Smith to John Stuart Mill to Marx argue that land ownership is it's own weird thing.

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>>76573486
>I think subversion is part of deconstruction.
You're wrong. Deconstruction is a postmodern analytical method pioneered by Jacques Derrida. Subversion is a narrative tool to upend genre expectations. These are not equal concepts or part of one another. Using subversion to upend cyberpunk genre expectations that Corps and Politics are generally not the issue, and it's in fact fringe outsiders, relies on centrist sophistry and faith in outmoded economic philosophy that is demonstrably fantastical.

>>76573545
Sentiment is factored in market prices too. In fact for quite some time it's been considered THE big component of profit margins; all that "experiential economy theory" and so on. (I'm actually doing a doctorate touching on this area.)

A simple English example, following on from your analogy: how much can I (or the market) pay you to abandon your home vs how much are you willing to pay to not abandon your home? That would become the "market price".

>>76573547
>REEEE NO YOU
dilate

>>76573603
Here’s smith on why you’re wrong, /biz/tard
> The landlords, operate a certain kind of monopoly against the tenants. The demand for their commodity, site and soil, can go on expanding indefinitely; but there is only a given, limited amount of their commodity.... The bargain struck between landlord and tenant is always advantageous to the former in the greatest possible degree.... Besides the advantage he derives from the nature of the case, he derives a further advantage from his position, his larger fortune and greater credit and standing. But the first by itself suffices to enable him and him alone to profit from the favorable circumstances of the land. The opening of a canal, or a road; the increase of population and of the prosperity of a district, always raises the rent.... Indeed, the tenant himself may improve the ground at his own expense; but he only derives the profit from this capital for the duration of his lease, with the expiry of which it remains with the proprietor of the land; henceforth it is the latter who reaps the interest thereon, without having made the outlay, for there is now a proportionate increase in the rent.”
>”Rent, considered as the price paid for the use of land, is naturally the highest which the tenant can afford to pay in the actual circumstances of the land.”
you’re showing yourself to be a dime a dozen internet “expert” who hasn’t actually read anything but considers himself smarter than everyone who has.
Again, he’s not talking about a guy who owns an apartment complex and rents it to people to live in, he’s talking about landowners charging rent for people to work the land.

>>76573568
I suspect that the context in which they argue that really only applies to nations rather than individuals or corporations. In which case I have a simple sword to cut through that Gordian knot of theoretical blah: Govts own the land, set the rent more or less arbitrarily, and shoot you if you don't comply, end of story

>>76573640
Georgism is gay.

>>76573581
>These are not equal concepts or part of one another
Explain in simple English why not.

> relies on centrist sophistry and faith in outmoded economic philosophy that is demonstrably fantastical.
Explain in simple English why this isn't utter bullshit.

>>76573476
That would be because one man's utopia is just about everyone else's dystopia, and thus utopian scifi tends to fall off the mark.


>>76573483
>>76573554
Shirow is a gun nut, that's about all you need to know about the political stances expressed in his IPs. I do not mean that in a derogatory way.

>>76567515

If im not mistaken that version of the megaman universe takes after Wiley’s ideas instead of Lights which eventually leads to humans and reploids being nearly the same having to take implants and having enforced lifespans (and the implied capacity to mate and produce offspring)

>all these leftards desperately trying reinvision near future scifi to fit their narrow definition of cyber"punk"
Anyway i came up with a new term to describe all the trash on the internet, Cyberpollution.

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>tfw all OP wanted was to talk about fresh ideas in cyber punk
>tfw it just devolved into leftypol making appeals to authority, quoting dogma and telling people they're stupid
>tfw every thread I make that doesn't get ignore or get me banned for 3 months or something ridiculous is just a vehicle for leftypol to make appeals to authority, quote dogma and call people retards

>>76573688
people don't understand utopia vs dystopia in fiction. These things aren't genres.
For example some people have been pushing that cybershit is always dystopian fiction even though that isnt true. To use another example post apocalypse fiction isn't necessarily dystopian or utopian it can be either.

>>76573713
what the fuck are you talking about? are you just the libertarian upset that people disagree with you? how is quoting adam smith to explain adam smith “leftypol appeals to authority”? You could just explain your own disagreements with citations instead of crying

>>76564991
Inciteful anon. Very nice

>>76573713
Take the clean break pill. Just stop using "cyberpunk" let the leftards have their gay term associated with their gay idea of punks vs the system (ironically their system)

>>76573713
Nnnno that's not quite what he wanted, he specifically wanted to come up with an alternative to cyberpunk where The Man is the good guy and the rebels are the bad guy, which isn't exactly fresh, and may not in fact be a legitimate sentiment artistically speaking.

That being said FUCK /pol/ and FUCK /leftypol/

>>76573750
insightful not incite lel

>>76573735
>For example some people have been pushing that cybershit is always dystopian fiction even though that isnt true. To use another example post apocalypse fiction isn't necessarily dystopian or utopian it can be either.

Can you mention examples of cyberpunk scifi that is not dystopian?

>>76573681
>Spoonfeed me, I'm illiterate
No.

>>76573756
in most "cyberpunk" stories the man is usually the protagonist since cop stories make up the bulk of the work. The term cyberpunk is a misnomer and attempt to leech off BR's success.

>>76573603
I see. I think this falls into what most people consider a monopoly to be: the only thinkable option is to rent from you if you're the only available landowner.
For me, the amount of money you'd have to pay me to move would be enormous compared to, say paying mercenaries to destroy my home outright.

>>76561107
>corporations are good!
>that's why they're constantly lying to you
>that's why they're constantly shoving propaganda down your throat
>that's why they don't want you to realize they're using slave labor in China/India/etc

The irony is the people complaining about slavery 200 years ago are defending the companies that are practicing slavery today.

>>76571398
Nothing about his work has anything to do with not working with other people.

>>76573804
no the irony is the people attacking the corporations are on the same side as them.

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>>76573781
>in most "cyberpunk" stories the man is usually the protagonist since cop stories make up the bulk of the work
That is a massive misunderstanding. Cop protagonists in 80s fiction and especially in cyberpunk fiction are NOT The Man, they are loose cannons at odds with the system. They are defined by their antagonism to authority as much as they are defined by their antagonism to crime.

>>76571360
Commies and their ilk believe the whole world operates naturally on a two-party system. They'll never understand

>>76573817
>no the irony is the people attacking the corporations are on the same side as them.
?

>>76573756
I am the OP, but I'm also not a retard.
I know to get replies on this dogfarm you need to throw out some red meat, not just say exactly what you mean.
Probably the best way to get replies is to use a big word somewhat counterintuitively and see how many midwits join the thread just to lecture me on the "correct" definition, before they "get mad" as it were.

>>76573838
Fuck off they are cops doing their job and thats shooting baddies.
Deckard in BR has the job of hunting down rogue replicants and putting a bullet in them.

>>76573670
Perhaps. But it is what it is. Gubmints, in their capacity as the collective will of its people, have all the power to squeeze you for as much as it can get away with.

>>76573637
You quote a lot but you don't apply the quotations to your argument, and no they are not at all self-explanatory. So let met do it for you, brainlet: Smith basically says 1) Land is finite but demand is ever-growing; 2) landlords are always richer than tenants so they can squeeze the tenants; 3) if a tenant improves the property the landlord benefits, 4) the landlord further benefits by charging more rent on said improvement.

This all works very well in theory but not in market practice: 1) Demand shrinks when economic activity shrinks, as anyone who's bought a property in the wrong part of town would well know; 2) squeezing is still dependent on market conditions such as competing landlords, as anyone who's tried to rent out property in a buyer's market would know; 3) not true as improvements often are temporary, and require upkeep; 4) rental is more often a fixed sum than a percentage other than for commercial properties, and that should all be imputed into the tenant's consideration anyway.

Which is why I go back to what I said here >>76573640 these theories apply more at a national level, and even then with some major caveats as not all nations are created equal.

>Again, he’s not talking about a guy who owns an apartment complex and rents it to people to live in, he’s talking about landowners charging rent for people to work the land

So you're quoting an extremely narrow and dated theory to support an argument for a much broader and modern system, got it.

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>>76573707
>That whole post

>>76573849
Ah I see you were merely pretending to be retarded

>>76573750
>>76573764
I wondered if you did that on purpose, heh

>>76573777
>hiding behind rhetoric
I hope you're a troll, I'd hate for you to be this unironically dumb.

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>>76573858
And the morale of the story is that he must instead learn to be compassionate in order to retain some self-dignity.

>Fuck off they are cops doing their job and thats shooting baddies.
Which oftentimes involves disobeying orders and shooting The Man.

>>76573858
How the actual fuck did you miss the point of blade runner this badly?

>>76573838
one could see this as a western parallel to the colonel in akira or to section 9 in GitS - both are explorations of the state at odds with itself, with trying to determine what is and isn’t it’s better nature. both the disgruntled cop and the shadowy government organ are expressions of the authors’ conflicted feelings that the state is supposed to shepard society and has failed to do properly and morally. It’s tinged by the japanese/american views on the role of the self and the state in society.
thanks anon, you’ve helped me understand this a lot better

>>76573893
>>76573894
>le bladerunner is actually an anti-cop story.
How is it that you miss the point of speculative fiction? You god damn idiot fools.

>>76573897
its just political faux drama that is prevelent in Japanese mature anime. A lot of times its completely meaningless and badly written in the script. It just seems "cool" like any Kojimba game.

>>76573783
>the only thinkable option is to rent from you if you're the only available landowner

As I keep telling people, no, you don't HAVE to buy Starbucks all the time and then whine that you're broke; a cup of Nes is perfectly acceptable. Likewise, one doesn't HAVE to live in NYC or similarly-priced places, or take up X amount of living space. And one can always wait for the housing bubble to blow.

This is the theory of the free market, anyway. Of course, said theory has certain built-in assumptions, one of those is that it is relatively easy for competitors to come in. E.g. zoning regulations make that problematic.

Anyhow it's nowhere near as monopolistic as Adam Smith suggests, and anyone who thinks so is welcome to buy land in Bumfuck Falls, Ohio, and reel in all that juicy rent.

>>76573913
You overplayed your hand.

>>76573860
again you misunderstand. the difference between a landlord in the modern sense and the landlord in the sense adam smith means is ESSENTIAL to his argument that they are a monopoly. you’re essentially arguing that smith is wrong because that doesn’t apply to modern real estate markets -you’re correct that it doesn’t, but smith isn’t talking about those at all! in fact there wouldn’t be much of a market of land in england in that time because the landowning aristocracy was still intact at the time of his writing - it haven’t yet fully transformed from feudal property relations to capitalist ones.
> So you're quoting an extremely narrow and dated theory to support an argument for a much broader and modern system, got it.
No, I’m quoting him exclusively to explain that a landlord in smiths definitions is not the modern landlord. the term landlord has changed meaning almost entirely in the english speaking world, because the old form of landlords don’t exist in the english speaking world. I’m not even sure what “modern system” you think i’m supporting here.
I don’t know how to make this any clearer.

>>76573817
>>76573848
>>76563948
>be me
>be impressionable college freshman
>fall in with some commie dogwhistle organization about sweatshop labor
>faggots go on and on about what clothes you can wear
>there are maybe 5 or 6 brands on EARTH that don't use sweatshop labor and don't require a loan to buy a shirt.
>almost all of them are American/European made
>faggots go on screaming about "muh white man's evils"
>notice most of them still wear the brands
>mostly end up traveling around and holding "organized actions" (inciting small riots) for "the worker's cause" on other liberal campuses.
>everywhere we go there's tons of free money and host houses and event spaces the university PAID for us to have to demonstrate AGAINST their own staff.
>You have no idea how fucked this system is. The rampant faggotry is supported by every institution imaginable. Some of them deliberately attacking themselves so they can have a "change of heart" and attract more publicity and liberal organization's funding.

>>76573897
In Deus ex you play a counter terrorism cop who discovers a conspiracy of globalists that invokves his own employer.
Denton isnt a a rogue element. Denton is still just doing his job. A corrupt system is still a crime.

>>76569546
>>76569678
I agree with both of you. GitS (especially the SAC series) is a very grounded cyberpunk borderline dystopia, but Section 9 is definitely an anomaly. You're both making me want to do a CP2020 campaign for a police strike team.

>>76573994
No, if you boil down all scifi work into "punks vs ebil capitalism rightwang conspiracy" you are a retard.

BR is trying to describe to you a different lifestyle and point in time including all the ups and downs and morality. Its not this infantile "teh system is teh bad and ashkully the cop is fighting it"

>>76573564
>Cyberpunk is also destructive to others. Protagonists rarely give a shit about collateral damage, and victimising "teh suits" is itself an objective. No paragons of ethics here.
Yep
>As you say, a rebel against accepted societal norms, especially one who perceives oneself to be relatively unfairly disenfranchised. But that's out of topic I think; I'm most interested in the definition of "cyberpunk".
It's a conjoining of cyber, technology, and punk, you know, punk. Just as you defined punk.

>>76573999
Alright, fair enough, but how does that apply to the overall discussion? Like I said, you quote but you do not APPLY

>>76573814
WTF are talking about?

>>76573858
you're right as a lot of cooler headed anons have already pointed out, cyberpunk was never about being a communist revolutionary, it was about being a cog in the machine and being pit against others of your own class or a lower one.

The closest blade-runner came to a revolutionary message was to have Deckard run off with Rachel, presumably just to be hunted down and die like the first group of nexus 6 escapees.
In fact the whole "revolution" of killing Tyrell was completely empty and unsatisfying for Roy: all he wanted to do was live longer, not change society.
Roy's grace achieving moment is when he decides to spare Deckard, the man's man who was sent to hunt him down.

how is any of that punk? That's just classic existentialism. The 4 year lifespan of the replicants is the only detail tying the thing down to its "cyberpunk" setting, if that wasn't there the entire cast and story could have been plopped down just about anywhere.

This story could have easily been set in the 1300s and the replicants could have just been nobles from a fallen house being exterminated, and Deckard some retainer with possible familial ties to them being tragically charged with slaying the lot of them.

letfypol will dissagree wit this but who cares what those brainlets think

>>76574018
>most cyberpunp fiction is actually cybernoir
>revolves around cops and counter terrorism units
>ashkully dis is an anomaly, gibson is ral cyberpunk xD

>>76574030
anon nobody is buying it any more. You overplayed your hand.

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>>76573870
I sense much butthurt in you, good

>>76574010
Legitimately seeing this on several boards on this site, and I am not happy with it at all. I'm not sure if this is some epic edgy counter-counter-counter culture memery or if we legitimately have a lot of actual pseudo-Libertardians here now, but I want it to stop.

>>76574033
>It's a conjoining of cyber, technology, and punk, you know, punk

Well, it's not quite literal "punk" as in literally that particular subculture of the 70s.

>>76574049
theres no left wing message in BR. Rather the message is "this is just life" for the people in the setting.

>>76574087
Well, um, yes it is... In the Cyberpunk 2020 core book that's exactly what it says. Page 3 in the side bar.

>>76574070
What you are experiencing is the cognitive dissonance when you encounter a person with opinions outside your own.

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>>76574076
>YOU WILL EAT THE ONIONS

>>76574049
I'm going to warn you that using the term "leftypol" anywhere outside of /pol/ outs you as a /pol/ cockroach who's entire opinions, personality, and argumentative lean will be as blindly right-leaning as your typical Twitter blue checkmark's arguments will be blindly left-leaning, and nothing you say has any value as long as you approach it from your cartoonish bias.

>>76574055
No one said Section 9 is a genre anomoly; Section 9 is an anomaly in the organization of GitS's ruling government.

>>76574076
its because the leftwing perspective is a lie. Look at cp77 all the dystopian things in the setting are just leftist subversive culture.
Its like they are attacking themselves.

>>76574111
>the Cyberpunk 2020 core book
doesn't define the genre, anon.

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Cyberpunk deconstructs to a subculture built on absolute seething hatred of the commercialization of subcultures.

Which is why all numedia trying to cash in on the meme fails.

>>76574132
thats another thing that has irritated me since this game came about. The fans of the game insisting cyberpunk 2020 defines the entire genre just cause the writer named it cyberpunk.

>>76574049
>how is any of that punk?
What about how Decker being force out of retirement What about the futility of the replicants trying to escape enslavement?

>>76561000
>post examples where big corporations and the government are basically good
No

>>76574136
>implying numedia consoomers have that much self-awareness

What's the cyberpunk word for cogfoppery?

>>76574132
Again, the term "cyberpunk" was coined by Mike Pondsmith, the author of the book. His term, his definition.