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>>61966611
While we're at it, and because I am in a dangerously dwarfy mood, what are some alternate ways for Dwarves to engage in magic if one wants to move away from the typical 'no magic/rune magic' angle?

I like to think Dwarves would make interesting druids, where instead of forests they represent the merciless depths or the mountains themselves, summoning up avalanches, terrifying storms, monstrous cave-beings and earthquakes.

And if Druidism is too hippy-dippy for you, then why not give them the strongest bardic magic? Where passion and songcraft is woven into powerful spells to make the already resilient and physically powerful dwarves into monsters on the battlefield.

Oh, and about subraces again, what about Forest Dwarves and Mountain Elves?

>>61966611
>Why not differentiate and name them after different metals and minerals such as Gold or Silver or Ruby Dwarves? Dwarves with fey-influence who change to reflect their cavernous homes?
maybe we could take inspiration from the ancient greek 'myth of the ages' where we were on the fourth version of humanity (men of iron) which were proceded by the men of gold, men of silver, and men of bronze
>the men of gold were basically perfect and eventually ascended to godhood
>the men of silver refused to grow up, spending most of their lives as children and were eventually wiped out for not properly respecting the gods
>the men of bronze were violent and warlike, and tore themselves apart
>the men of iron live in an age of greed, deception, toil and misery

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>>61966611

>>61966794
I like giving dwarves the most warlocks, the rigid transactional nature of pacts seems to fit their usual depiction quite well

>>61966611
Warcraft, of all places, has Dwarves that’s kinda different. Once they discovered their link to the Titans, their major focus went from mining to archeology and history. There’s just as many dwarf scholars out to study ancient ruins as there are miners. Then there the other dwarves who ride gryphons.

Test

Test!

>>61967070
what exaclty are you testing?

>>61967101
Technical issues and shit.

>>61966821
I never knew about that, how interesting!
But how do we use it fer dorfs?

I'm currently designing subraces for dwarves so this is great timing OP. The main race of dwarves are traditional craftsmen whose greatest works become the stuff of the gods with Gungnir being given to Odin to keep the peace between the Aesir and the dwarves. Outside of the chilly Norselands there are three subtypes whom, by circumstance or choice, have differentiated themselves from their brethren.

Clurichaun: Traitors who have left the Norselands and allied themselves with the Faerie Lords, they were inflicted with a curse by their brethren that makes iron burn like fire in their hands to prevent their works from falling into the hands of the enemy. So instead the clurichaun work as scholars and scribes, transcribing the history of their lords and focusing their talents on the creation of great works of magic. Basically leprechauns who rely on magic and guile and enjoy a good drink.

Sherden: Sea-faring cousins who roam the waters on great fleets. While they retain familial connections to the Norselands they've become smitten with life at sea, their colors now swarthy and dark. Still working on this one but they're Mediterranean vikings. They live on a 'moving island' that is actually an Aspidochelone.

Vulcans: Also known as Muspellssynir. Trapped in Muspelheim after digging too deep, these dwarves swore allegiance to Surtr to survive and now his fire burns inside of them. They're Azer, but I'm trying to differentiate them.

>>61966821
I've basically used this to explain the other races in my current setting. The men of gold became angels who serve the gods while the men of silver turned into demons who eventually aligned themselves with the titans. Some made a deal with Hades and became devils who serve as wardens for the dead. For the men of bronze, I used a legend that said Zeus made them from an Ash tree and turned them into violent elves who would slowly lignify into trees. Age of iron are current humans.

>>61967189
maybe they're like castes in dwarven society?
>gold for nobles and clergy
>silver for ???
>bronze for warriors
>iron for peasants (or maybe criminals and outcasts)

>>61967101
It's probably just someone getting past a ban

Sea dwarves

>>61967718
inbred demonic dwarves

>>61967459
>>61966821
I have a caste system that's like this for the dwarves in my current campaign. They're loosely based on the Sassanian Empire. Society is divided into three castes: Craftsman, Priests and Warriors. Laws center around repayment and debt with society forming around and endless loop of favors.

Paygans: dwarves whose only way of repaying their debts is through joining a penal legion. Lead by a Paygan-salar, a non-paygan warrior who swore an oath to see them to their end. They are typically identified by their shaved and painted heads as well as light armor.

Asvarans: Warrior caste. Their leader is called Aspbad and often recognized as their closest equivalent to a king, although he is only one of three elected leaders that control dwarven society. Always male. Most other nations and cultures interact with the military class.

Moghans: Priestly Caste. The soul of the people. They are in charge of education as well as interpreters of dwarven law. Law and religion are hand-in-hand. The ruler is called the Hirbod, who tends to the sacred flame int he temple of the gods. Always female. Dwarves consider arcane magic (created by dragons) as evil and label such people as Bergs, or tainted ones.

Rasnans: Craftsman. They run the economy of dwarven society and are responsible for tending to its infrastructure and needs. They range from fungus farmers and go up to the weaponsmiths/Argbadhs. Their leader is the Andarzbad, whose gender can be either male or female and generally elected either due to their organizational skills or crafting ability.

>>61966611
D&D 3e had a shit ton of dwarven subraces.
About as many as elven.
Just no one gave a fuck because dwarves are boring.

>>61967965
(continued)

Gold: Considered sacred and used solely to repay a debt or reward an oath fulfilled. Every dwarf and dwarf family has a separate account for their gold in order to show other families their own integrity and faithfulness. The priests manage gold as it's the blood of the gods. Instead of paying in blood, gold is considered the only substitute for serious crimes. Due to this dwarves and their neighbors have a silver standard economy.

Embers: Dwarves do not die in the traditional sense but slowly turn into stone. They believe the soul resides in the tools of one's office over the body. Dwarven bodies are thus refined into weapons and items by their descendants. Only priests, who can 'fan the flames of the soul' can truly make these items speak and give their wealth of knowledge. Most clans have intelligent weapons or objects who guide them as a result.

>>61967972
t. Elf

>>61966794
>Posts dwarven girl
>No beard
Do you even dwarf

>>61968048
Beardless dwarves are actually fat gnomes.

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>>61968048
Sue me, Dwarf women shouldn't have beards.
Because it's icky and makes my dick soft.

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>>61968210
>he doesn't like bearded dwarf women

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So, and correct me if I'm wrong, the general idea is that Mountain Dwarves live in impervious strongholds and do most of the mining and crafting, and Hill dwarves live below the mountains in the foothills and do most of the farming and trading?

How do we expand upon this?

>>61968258
>>61968191
>>61968048
So are you telling me you would fuck a Bearded lady?

>>61968266
Sounds like strained relationship as the mountain dwarves are forced to rely on the hill dwarves for food and lumber while the hill dwarves are aware of just how much the mountain dwarves rely on them and start to squeeze what they can from their cousins. The hill dwarves would be more mercantile and social given their proximity to humans and trading partners while the mountain dwarves would look down at their 'soft-skinned' cousins and adhere to tenants of dwarf society more rigorously. No doubt you'd find a disliked cousin or brother forced into the hill dwarves' settlement or a highly regarded hill dwarve skimming a little more profit than he deserves for risking his neck out on the (relatively speaking) open hills.

>>61968382
I understand the imbalance you've pointed out, but the hills and valleys at the foot of a mountain are a better option for farming. Naturally all food wouldn't be produced by the hill dwarves as the mountain dwarves would probably keep herds of hardy livestock or engage in fantasy subterranean farming.

We should keep discussing this but really your analysis now has me wanting for a story where two dwarven brothers, one hill one mountain, swap places over a bet that the other couldn't handle their brothers life, leading to shenanigans and personal growth.

>>61966611
> the sea dwarves
An ancient, now extinct, culture of dwarves in the early dwarven bronze age. Ruins of their dug-out huts, pottery and tools can be found in coastal areas, always in sight of the sea. Ancient dwarven longships made their way across oceans, spreading their culture to distant continents before some, as yet unknown catastrophe destroyed them. Engravings in their pottery are some of the oldest examples of written language. The writings themselfes indicate that they were a happy people, fond of poems (songs) of conquest, exploration, fish and reproducing. There are indications that of trade with mountain cultures of dwarfs as well as with the other races still in their nomadic phases of culture.

>>61968511
I'd read A Tale of Two Forts.

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Being from AZ I've always imagined that kinda Dwarves that would live in red rock areas like the Grand Canyon or Sedona would be like primative, hide wearing, cavemen who use dinosaur bones as tools (obviously in this analogy the dont excavate fossils but that their are just a lot of Dinos in the area with them)

>>61968591
Sorry but I can only imagine the Flintstones but with dwarves. It works too well.

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>>61968531
This is a blue board you sick fuck!

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>>61966611
Subraces are an absolutely awful concept that fails when put into practice nine out of ten times.

Rather than have three flavors of elf (High, Wood, Dark) who are all "subraces" that come in different rainbow-tier skin colors and have different inherent racial abilities, I'd rather just have "elves" who are the same on a biological level but with different cultures.

There's no need to create Deep Dwarves, Frost Dwarves, Hill Dwarves, Ash Dwarves, Fey Dwarves, Dragon Dwarves, or whatever. How about you just use "dwarves." Some dwarves live in the snow-covered mountains. Some dwarves live in the wild hills. Some dwarves live in the desert and build their own "mountains" (ziggurats) out of sandstone. Dwarves in the mountains tend to be pale, dwarves in the hills have ruddy skin, dwarves in the desert are tan, etc. They're all the same on a biological level, but they have different cultures that correspond to their geographic locations.

>>61968805
Honestly this sounds like a better option. You can just give them different weapons and armor and possibly a different dialect or something depending on where they are and what they're all about. It's got that DF vibe too.

>>61968805
Issue anon.
Sure, you can have all the variants of a race not be super biologically different and just have different cultures that's all fine and good.
But what happens when you need to refer to the culture of dwarves in the snow in specifics?

You end up having to say 'Snow Dwarves'.

>>61966611
In the spirit of the thread, let's tally the various dwarf races that've shown up in D&D:

>Mountain Dwarf: More isolationist "common" dwarf, battle-hardened due to greater conflict against orcs, goblinoids and dragons.

>Hill Dwarf: "Common" dwarf, more gregrious than the Mountain Dwarf.

>Duergar: Malevolent, slave-taking dwarf native to the Underdark.

>Deep Dwarf: Non-evil dwarf strain native to the Underdark, possibly the ancestor strain.

>Sundered Dwarf: Dwarves forced to live on the surface and adapt to life amongst other races due to the cataclysmic destruction of their ancestral homes.

>Gully Dwarf: Primitive, filthy, goblin-like dwarves native to Krynn.

>Arctic Dwarf: White-haired, cold-resistant hunter-gatherers native to the arctic tundras.

>Wild Dwarf: Primitive hunter-gatherers from tropical jungles, notable for being shorter and leaner than normal, so they count as Small sized. Originally based on 1800s pygmy stereotypes.

>Badlands Dwarf: Dwarves adapted to life in the hot and rocky badlands.

>Glacier Dwarf: Dwarves adapted to life on glaciers and in arctic mountains.

>Seacliff Dwarf: Dwarves adapted to life on coastal cliffs, giving them a knack for swimming and freeing them of the traditional aquaphobia.

>Dream Dwarf: Mystical and magical dwarves with a spiritual connection to the earth that manifests as a knack for druidism.

>Forgeborn Dwarf: Dwarves from the World Axis who were rescued from thralldom to elementals, but not before they became tainted with elemental energies, turning them into the dwarven equivalent of genasi.

>>61968851
Roughly speaking, sure. But it's not like we lack material to give them an identity.

>>61966611
>>61968888

Had to split this up due to length.

>Derro: Malicious, Underdark-dwelling, spellcasting dwarves. On Greyhawk, they are the results of trying to breed human & dwarf together as a slave race.

>Kogolor: Mystaran ancestral stock for the dwarf and gnome races. Looks like a more lightly built dwarf, acts more like a gnome. Very Swedish, complete with yodelling.

>Urdunnir: Dwarf subrace blessed with an elemental affinity for the earth itself, which lets them walk through stone like air and shape stone & metal with their thoughts.

>Azer: Fiery elemental resembling a dwarf made of heated brass and flame. In the World Axis cosmology, these were dwarves who spent so long enslaved by fire giants that they became half-elementals themselves.

>Galeb Duhr: Earth elemental resembling a dwarf made of stone. In the World Axis cosmology, these were dwarves who spent so long enslaved by stone giants that they became half-elementals themselves.

>Eisk Jaat: Ice elemental resembling a blue-skinned dwarf with icy spines for hair. In the World Axis cosmology, these were dwarves who spent so long enslaved by frost giants that they became half-elementals themselves.

>>61968805
I like a mix. I want them to be the same on a biological level but adapted to their environment. I want desert dwarves to be swarthy and lean from a nomadic life with a connection to the land while dwarves from the frozen north are pale and fat who would rather expand their dwellings and change the enviroment. A good subrace should do both without being too extreme.

>>61967459
"Gold is for the mistress -- silver for the maid -- Copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all."

>>61968890
Absolutely.
There's a reason it says 'Dwarven Subraces/*culture* in the op, because variants don't need to be alien to each other, they can just be different cultures.

Honestly I adore the idea that even with drastic cultural and physiological differences all dwarves are still part of the same 'faction', and in times of crisis they will put aside their differences and toil side-by-side for the betterment of their kin.

>>61968923
You quoting something or are you just incredible?

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>>61968851
>But what happens when you need to refer to the culture of dwarves in the snow in specifics?
>You end up having to say 'Snow Dwarves'.
That's not a problem and I don't have an issue with it. My issue is when Snow Dwarves have blue skin and beards of ice because they're Snow Dwarves.

>>61968959
Rudyard Kipling's poem "Cold Iron".

>>61966794
>Mountain Elves
So...the Noldor.

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>>61968939
And this will be the reason why all dwarves will end up being basically the same. Just giving them some outright evil dwarves gives them so much dynamics and broaden their influence on the world.

>>61967972
Pretty idiotic thing to say. How could they be more boring than immortal flamboyant gay hippies? Different types of Dwarves are great as the ole' miner/mountainhome stone-obsessed shit is quite stale at this point. Just grow and evolve them like any other actual race, like they started in mountains and mines and have strong history there, but then spread out, just like humans, and live all over in different climates and practicing different professions.

>>61969067
I'm open to the idea of evil dwarves, pardon me if I gave the impression that I wasn't.

You have any ideas to share anon?

>>61969119
>What is Dwarf Fortress.

>>61968382
>lumber
Nah mate. Forest Dwarves. They live in the woods, they hunt the baddies, they bring back the lumber. Sadly most likely Dwarves to get werewolf'd and/or warlock'd.

>>61968737
That pic is nothing but wholesome you elven swine!

>>61969142
Those chaos dwarves are already a good starting point. You don't even need any demons and that shit, just focus on the bad side of industrialization. You know how normal/good dwarves often seem to organize themselves in guilds, honor their craft, take their sweet time to create quality weapons, their halls are magnificent, full of great craftship, and they live more or less secluded from the outside world, where the few monuments one can see belnd into the environment and becomes one with it? Well, the evil dwarves might as well all about scorching the earth and burn every forest, divert every river to fuel hellish machinery, and the black smoke spat out of their furnaces fill the air so much that anyone not dwarf has a hard time breathing and the sun is nowhere to be seen anyway.

Basically like Saruman from lord of the ring, or how someone like Tolkien saw the new technologies first and foremost as a means of destruction of the natural order.

>>61966611
>Mountain Dwarves
Your typical dwarf, also sometimes called Stone Dwarves or Rock Dwarves. Old money, old families, old legacies wrapped up in centuries upon centuries of blood feuds, blood oaths, promises and marriages and betrayals. Steadfast, loyal, but stuck in their ways.

>Jungle Dwarves
Athletic, sporty, and competitive. Long separated from any other humanoid influence, these olive-skinned, clean-cut dwarves invented a multitude of games and activities for anything from settling disputes to celebrating the birth of newborns. They're well-known for being cautious, yet gracious hosts. They are good at carving and metallurgy but their stonework would frankly embarrass other dwarves.

>Northern Dwarves
These hardy sea-farers call the arctic their home. In olden times, they would follow schools of fish that migrate from the pole to warmer seas for spawning. Nowadays they've established cities of stone, powered and warmed by geothermal energies. 90% of their population is white-haired and silver-eyed. Many among them are expert fishermen, but some use their talents for ill, becoming pirates or privateers.

>Desert Dwarves
Sun-baked skin and bleached hair exemplify these dwarves, who toil in the arid, rocky deserts for oil and gold. Machinists and engineers, they develop ingenious new technologies that some would call sorcery. As they age, their skin becomes crustier and scale-like, giving them great resilience to blowing sands and harsh sun. They have no patience for indirect language and don't respect or tolerate anyone who attempts honeyed words with them.

>>61969291
That's solid stuff right there, and you bring up an interesting point.

Elves get a lot of shit for being 'treehuggers' but honestly, not respecting the planet you live on is a pretty dumb-fuck stupid thing to do, letting industry run rampant is a surefire way to get yourself fucked in the long run. Even if you don't care about the animals and plants you drive to extinction, you're poisoning yourself as you fuck up your world.

Dwarves industry is seen as an all-around positive, but if gone haywire, can make them fantastic villains.

>>61966611
>but what about the trusty dwarf?
There's actually more flavors of dwarf than elf, moron. It's amazing how many dwarfwankers on this board don't know that.

>>61969237
That is a picture of a threesome you dirty, half-elf whore!

>>61969119
I've had great dwarf players, I think dwarves can be used for good things, like almost any race in a tabletop game.
But the reason I said they're boring is because dwarves lack mass market appeal, and as WotC found out, you can throw 50 million sub-races at them and make a whole rainbow of dwarves, but most people just won't give a fuck, and of those who do give a fuck they are, for the most part, going to stick to the tried and true tropes over anything else. As I previously said, there are exceptions, but they are far from the majority.

I mean hell, to make Gimli appealing for the LotR movies, jackson had to turn him into a comic relief character.

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Scans show this thread has rich deposits of Morkite and Gold further down.
Bring it back up team.

>>61969612
>Dwarves are boring
>Gimli Comic relief
I see your point actually.
Are dwarves really boring to Jo-Schmo and Co.?

>>61969651
They're boring to everyone who isn't a dorfwanker

>>61966611
I remember in the book Salt about the history of, uh, salt, it talked about a Viking offshoot culture of salt miners, who mined exclusively into mountains, favored bright red and blue striped shirts and big blonde mustaches, and if I'm remembering correctly, had something to do with the myth of "gnomes".
So I'd like to see a setting where Gnomes are a subrace of Dwarves; a bunch of salt-mining, mountain dwelling blonde dwarves, who prefer mustaches to beards and have Swedish accents instead of Scottish ones. They're more commerce-focused and flamboyant than the militant dwarves, but they can still hold their own in a fight.

>>61969771
>>61969505
Had a bad day Anon?

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>>61969807
I've always liked the idea that Dwarves are fey who fell in love with industry and craft and became mortals, perhaps with this in mind Gnomes are the Fey-version of Modern Dwarves, hence the free and wild spirits?

>>61969807
But English is an Anglo-Frisian language that derives from West German dialects whereas Swedish is a North Germanic dialect. If anything, the not!Gnomes should be the ones with the Scottish accent while the normal Dwarves have something akin to an English accent.

>>61966611
>Wood Dwarves
>>+1 Wis
>>Can craft wooden items in half time
>>Learn 2 cantrips from Druid spell list

>Mountain Elves
>>+1 Constitution
>>Elven weapon training
>>Gain light, medium armor prof
>>Dex unarmed attack (1d4)

>Salt Gnomes
>>+1 Charisma
>>Swim speed = to normal
>>can hold breath 2x as long
>>Unarmored AC 13+Dex (due to salt deposits in skin)

>>61969877
That's fair. I based it on the fact that nearly all dwarves in modern culture have scottish accents, as well as that Swedish sounds a bit silly.

>>61970013
>Wood Dwarves
>can bury themselves in dirt and leaves to hide

>>61969807
Since D&D gnomes are literally the result of Gygax and co taking every actual mythological depiction of dwarves and dwarf-like beings from European mythology and throwing it into a blender, as opposed to D&D dwarves which are Nordic dwarves by way of Tolkien, that's perfectly justifiable.

>>61970238
That's not so much as a unique racial ability as something literally anyone can do.

>>61970292
Wood Elves can hide themselves easier while lightly obscured by things like falling rain. That's what I was going for.

>>61970424
>Orcs can hide themselves in piles of raw meat and severed limbs to hide

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>>61969612
Ouch. Don't remind me about Gimli. A little humorous give and take between him and Legolas is OK but the scene where Gimli gets trapped under the dead worg was cringe worthy.

>>61970470
>"He's moving because me axe is embedded in his nervous system!"

>>61970500
>>61970470
Oh come on those scenes were fine!

>>61970593
The point is that anyone who was interested in him because of how Tolkien portrayed dwarves felt betrayed, while mass audiences thought "haha! dwarves are fun!" because they went so "off script" for his depiction.

>>61970593
I hated the nervous system line because it felt like a modern in-joke. Like, how the fuck does Gimli know what a nervous system is? Otherwise the scene is fine.
They pulled a lot of that kind of stuff in the Hobbit trilogy too. It drains the epic vibe even faster than comic relief.

>>61969158
I play Dwarf Fortress all day and have probably been playing it longer than you. What is the point of your snarky greentext?

>>61970954
That the whole purpose of that game's Dwarves expanding their kingdom and colonizing the world.

>>61970451
>Halflings can hide themselves in piles of mutton and down comforters to hide

Dwarfs beings maggots in the corpses of giants, it stands to reason dwarves come in all the flavours of giant too.

>>61971507
Everyone always brings up the maggot thing, but then they never really do anything interesting with it. At least you brought up the giant thing.

So Hill, Fire, Ice, Storm...I forget the rest.

>>61971236
>Dragonborn can hide themselves in piles of used dragon dildos to hide

>>61971566
Frost.

>>61971566
>>61971582
And Stone, but I don't care for any of them desu.

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>>61971567
Pleb.

>>61966611
I like to do different dwarf cultures based on different alcohols.
You got your typical ale dwarves
Then you got your german beer dwarves
Russian vodka dwarves
Mexican tequila dwarves
etc

>>61971582
>>61971604
Hill and Stone are basically Hill and Mountain Dwarves. Fire gives me a Vulcan/Hellenic vibe, while Frost says Viking to me. Don't know about Storm off the top of my head.

>>61971713
Pirate dwarves

>>61971713
Cloud Dwarves. While Storm Giants have great citadels in the clouds, the Dwarves have mining outposts, refining the materials within into Mithril.
Each clan has an Elder Shaman at its head, bringing the clouds earthward to allow the clan to reach new deposits and land safely once the cloud is depleted.
The dwarves are adept in barter and diplomacy, trading their goods for food and supplies unavailable in the skies with whomever their outposts drift over.

+1 to Charisma
Aerial Adaptation - You have advantage on attack rolls while airborne.

>>61971713
See for me it's also more about their relationship to their giant progenitors too.

Hill Dwarves came from Hill Giants, who were much more clever and manipulated many of them into domestic labour. Imagine Scottish highland dwarves mounted of hill giant howdahs.

Mountain Dwarves, being donners of armor and fighters seem more Fire Dwarves to me. They were or are slaves of a militant fire giant culture, creating and impending war machine awaiting the end of the world.

Frost Dwarves live in fear of their terrifying progenitors, living in extensive tunnels beneath the earth and snow. They scavenge the ruins left behind from Frost Giant raids, taking the useless shiny trinkets and gold.

Stone Giants are mystics who hold the underground and dungeons as sacrosanct. They are on a constant delve of discovery. They came from the land of dreams after all.

Cloud Dwarves live high atop the peaks, mining clouds for silver and gazing into the Heavens. Their progenitors being a vain and tricky lot, many are punished with the material by serving in cloud giant gambling dens.

Storm Dwarves, being abandoned by their progenitors, are in constant search of them. Renowned shipwrights and sailors, they ply the seas for clues and booty. Dwarf captains have a predilection of taking beardly monikers.

Formian dwarves are a pathetic and broken lot, beaten and cursed.

>>61971883
>I thought Storm Giants were Cloud Giants
Well, fuck. That'll teach me to actually read the Monster Manual one of these days.

>>61971566
Problem is, most of the giants in D&D are so boring...

But, they did try to invoke that in 4e, where they made Azers, Galeb Duhr and Eisk Jaat the result of dwarves being enslaved for too long by fire, stone and ice giants respectively...

>>61971507
>>61967718
What about dwarves who live on the backs of giant sea monsters, mining into them and using bones and muscle for tools and clothes? You could have a city on the back of a giant turtle that the dwarves blinded and mined into its flesh, controlling it through its nervous system.

>>61972782
You ever played Sunless Sea? You're halfway between two locations there (NOTE: This is 100% a story-driven game. Spoilers matter. I highly recommend playing the game, so don't read if you care.)

The Chelonate:
>a collection of marauders that roam the seas, hunting monsters and ships alike
>live on the corpse of a giant turtle-like beast, which their ancestors killed
>carve stories of great hunts on ivory and bones
>fiercely patriotic, will kill anyone that slanders them
> the turtle that they live on died of natural causes and was settled much later
> they don't know that

Hideaway:
>exiles, criminals, and hermits live here
>all take a vow of silence, none sell each other out to spare themselves
>on the back of a giant crab on the seafloor
>don't trust outsiders
>celebrate often with feasts and dancing
> crabs outgrow their shells
> they don't know that

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>>61966611
In order to do dwarves justice in subraces you need to go down to the fundamentals. What makes a dwarf... a dwarf? When Tolkein designed middle earth it doesn't take much to say he put more effort into elves that dwarves. But we can take important lessons from elves for how you should approach making subraces. When people think of elves they might think of forest people or deeply magical creatures. However, the original point that Tolkein revolves around is the immortality of elves and how that contrasts with the mortality of men; what he calls "The Gift of Men". This immortality and the spiritual nature of elves is what makes them elves, and the different cultures which come about will have, and should have this as an important factor.

Thus, when approaching dwarves we need to deconstruct what are the true fundamentals and what is just a cultural trait; what separates them from just slightly longer-lived and hardier humans.Some common physical traits include shorter and stockier build than humans with a slightly longer life span. To me, at first glance I don't see how these traits will have super large consequences, though perhaps someone here can think of something. Another common physical feature is that generally we see dwarves with a lot of hair. Considering its greater prevalence, this could probably be used as a way to formulate different cultures by how they approach hair. Taking the stereotypical trope, this feeds into dwarves being proud of their beards, but perhaps this focus on hair can take us to other places with different hair styles for cultures with a caste system, or religious associations with hair. Perhaps those who are religious need to shave their beards as a sign of deference. This is more a minor cultural point which might give some additional flavour and aesthetic to various subraces and subcultures, and does not get to the crux of what we need to determine here.

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>>61973044
So then what behavioural traits of dwarves can we attribute to a fundamental difference between them and humanity, and what can we attribute to just culture. Common traits in this regard include application to the creation of great works, a unity of community, ancestor worship and general desire to excavate and extract resources. What we should do is find some fundamental trait which helps explain all of these things, but then we can apply more generally to create complicated and unique subraces which make sense from that fundamental level.

One cosmological explanation I can think of is maybe that dwarves don't have souls and have no afterlife. This would motivate them to create great works, as after their death it will remain, even if they do not, and great works requires industry and resources. Also it could help explain ancestor worship and being community oriented since they all collectively understand that if they don't recognise each other and their ancestor's achievements, then nobody else will, in life or in death.

But you can take this in other places that each dwarf is out for themselves making the most of life, dwarves focusing on prolonging life since they have nothing following it etc.

So in summary, do we have any idea of what fundamental traits can classify dwarves as distinct from other fantastical humanoids, while still remaining the idea of them being 'dwarfy'?

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>>61973044
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/17444374/

Thread link is full of Dwarven discussion on physiology, which may prove to be a good resource.

But your entire post is fantastic, and raises many good points.

Are dwarves mortals or immortals, magic or mundane? It's worth exploring.

For me, Dwarves are in point defined by their craft. Great artifacts, pride in their craftsmenship, entire facets of their society defined by crafting.

But why go to such great lengths? Simple trade? Or a deeper meaning?

>>61973044
>What makes a dwarf... a dwarf?
The necessity and ability to improve and perfect things.
Their weapons and armor aren't just good, they're better. Their mines don't just get ore out of the ground, the tunnels are uniformly carved. Their buildings aren't just suitable, they're marvels of architecture.
To a dwarf, everything can be improved upon. Every rock can be sculpted, every piece of wood carved, every bit of land cultivated. A perfect world to a dwarf is one where everything is utilized.
It's more than just a desire, though. Every dwarf has the capability to perform these improvements. When a dwarf sets their mind to a task, it will be completed, and oftentimes the process refined.
This is why elves and dwarves are at odds: it is the conflict between natural and crafted beauty, the mighty oak and the ornate desk, the mountain face and the Mountainhomes.

As a subrace division, then, we can look at what each group is attempting to perfect: Mountain Dwarves focus on martial prowess and metalworking, and Hill Dwarves on the physical form and working the land.
What, then, can we add? Perhaps there are dwarves that focus on travel and commerce, or artistry and diplomacy. What would the pursuit of perfection in these fields do to their habits? Where would these dwarves live?

>>61966611
Forgotten Realms has a lot of different kinds of Dwarves, but then they have a lot of different kinds of everything. It actually gets kind of overwhelming and bloated, really.

You have like, nebulously northern European peasant Orcs that are more or less inoffensive to the degree that plain old humans are. At around the same latitude give or take that Obould Many Arrows, a violently stereotypical Orc Warlord leading a massive horde of stereotypically violent and barbaric Orcs. He does however, have quite a lot of character levels for an Orc, and a similarly large number of magical items. Granted, he's a martial class, and he isn't necessarily perfectly optimized, but he's also not some scrub level 10 XP pinata either.

>>61973380
Wrong pic, but sure.

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>>61973466
Yes this too is another important trait, and as you've put it, it could be set as very mental and driving facet of their lives. A sort of racial OCD, which drives them to perfection in both self and their environment; to reach the pinnacle in mastery in some domain.

But while we could focus on this compulsive drive for perfection as a trait of dwarves, my thoughts are that we could easily create human cultures that strive for perfection. So that, the trait in of itself is not necessarily unique to dwarves, but perhaps there is something fundamental that leads to this trait becoming so prevalent in dwarves. As you've implied it could simply be an inherent psychological asset which drives them to this, but also consider that perfection could also be considered a subjective trait. Could it be that dwarves are inherent sub-creators then,an inherently creative being/force within the world? Maybe, if we borrow from Tolkein (though this is something which would be dependent on setting more than anything), we can consider how dwarves are not one of the original two races created by Eru. Perhaps by not being a part of the original creation, there is disparity between them and the world which they are not an inherent part of, and this is what drives them to this 'perfection' and drive to shape the world. In order to make it truer to their natural essence than the world currently is.

This is an important aspect though, the desire to change and shape the world, to tame and master their environment and themselves.

Anybody have the picture of the dwarves from Discworld, the Deep-Downers that are so covered in layers of leather that they look like cones?
I thought I had it, but I can't seem to find it.

>>61973897
>we could easily create human cultures that strive for perfection
I understand this, which is why I specified both the necessity and ability.
Consider it a magical or pseudo-magical effect of Dwarvenkind that allows them to develop and perform such feats of crafting. Certain things simply wouldn't be possible to other races.
Given enough time, a human could've invented (for example) the architectural theory required to build Moria, or the metallurgy necessary to smelt Dwarven steel. Not only did Dwarves do it, but any dwarf could.
Other things, like the process behind refining Adamantine, could be literally impossible for other races. Dwarves, by some blessing or inspiration, made it possible on a fundamental level.
This is the power behind Dwarves: given enough time, they can not only make impossible things happen, but they can do it without actively harnessing magic.
Think of it like the Ork's psychic ability: they all believe that painting it red will make it go faster, then they paint it red, then it goes faster.
Similarly, the Dwarves think that they can carve a 30-story statue without it collapsing under its own weight, then they work at it, then they find a way to do it.

Of course, this requires a pretty big addition to what Dwarves are, but I don't necessarily think it's out of place.

>>61970829
>Hobbit trilogy
We don't speak of the monstrosity here. I'll fucking firebomb someone if they try bringing out the Silmarillion. They'll fuck it up, badly.

>>61974256
I'm not worried. Any way they could manage to make the Silmarillion accessible to the mainstream would transform it into something so far removed it wouldn't even register to me.

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>>61974119
While I'm not sure this gets to the fundamentals, as you said it is kind of a big addition, I like what you've done here.

I only bring up the fundamentals because I think it is an important route to differentiating dwarves while trying to retain what makes them feel like dwarves. Which is something I feel fantasy in general struggles with and hence pumps out reiterations of the same tropes. But that isn't the topic of this thread anyway, just something I brought up about how we can try to make dwarves feel new and fresh.

Taking this sort of interpretation of dwarves and maybe extending upon it: it might be cool to have the dwarves collectively be a mortal manifestation of some creative deity. By forming communities then, they localize more of this creative force and so this localised manifestation of this god is closer to its original form such that they not only physically manipulate the world through their actions but are capable of creative acts that actually change the world itself. Though to other races it appears as if they are just physically capable of things which they are incapable of and cannot conceive themselves doing, in some sense, this is what a god does.

>>61966611
i have a group of arctic dwarfs who are pyromaniacal magic tec heads

>>61974579
I've never really understood racial deities, but I like this route for them. Moradin's influence being channeled through all Dwarvenkind, with larger clans having more direct influence, is a neat concept.
This would also explain some of the "sameness" about dwarves: no matter how far removed they are from other clans, by virtue of being reflections of Moradin, they all converge to the same dwarf.
With this in mind, different subraces would be different aspects of Moradin: his artisanry, his might, his connection to the earth. Each subrace would be more attuned to one aspect over the others.

Interesting aside: does the strength of each aspect's subrace effect Moradin? If only one subrace were left alive, would Moradin become only that aspect?

>>61974838
>Interesting aside: does the strength of each aspect's subrace effect Moradin? If only one subrace were left alive, would Moradin become only that aspect?
If "Gods Need Prayer Badly" is in play, yes.

>>61974944
Gives a neat angle to the Duregar conflict: if they can be wiped out entirely, then literally all of Dwarvenkind would improve.

>>61974982
From a certain point of view. Racist.

>>61975013
>fighting literal manifestations of your negative aspects
>"hurr durr you can't kill them all because that would be bad"
This is what humans actually believe.

>>61974611
>Urist, it's too cold
>>NOT WHEN I'M THROUGH WITH IT

Does anyone have pictures of dwarves that are 100% covered
preferably by armor, but I'll take anything

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>>61975194

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>>61975194
2

>>61975227
Sadly no, the beard is sticking out, that's what I keep finding when I try to search for it
Thanks, anyway, I guess it's too specific

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>>61975194
3

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>>61975261
If you mean "fully covered" as in "no beard showing" then this picture is probably all I have.

>>61975292
You finding one is fucking awesome
Thanks, bro

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>>61975261
>>61975292
Here's another.

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>>61974838
Well I didn't mean necessarily Moradin, I just meant [insert creation god here]. But manifestations of different aspects of that god is interesting.
>>61974982
The Duregar conflict then becomes an elimination of the negative aspects of the god. Which then is basically analogous to an internal mental conflict over morality of this god. Perhaps, from a setting standpoint, the whole reason this god has manifested as the dwarves is just to dynamically resolve conflicts within their own character.

Another potential route could be that there is more than one creative god which the dwarves are manifested from. This might lead to various iterations of gods which reflect different creative aspects. Even further, dwarves originating from different gods can maybe even still come together and perform these impossible acts, amalgamating as a sort of fusion of the separate deities aspects.

In a sense it would make dwarves like a diffusion of the original god which can collect together to be closer to the original form, or mix and form something completely different.

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>>61975261
>>61975311
Another!

>>61975376
Are there many races that are this explicitly religious (outside of stuff like the Aasimar)? Dwarven Clerics and Paladins are popular, but I've always chafed under the "you must be religious, you must be devout, you must be practicing" attitude with non-Divine characters (thanks, That DM, my Necromancy Wizard is totally happy being a puppet of Nerull, she wasn't in this for herself at all).
Not that there's anything wrong with worship for flavor, but if one particular subrace god is LG and I want to play a Rogue, I'm going to have to do some justification.

>>61975669
I think this particular interpretation of Dwarves as a deity-made-many (Deus Ex Pluribus?) is a solid one if it's unique. It very neatly explains why they are always considered similar in so many different universes. They are basically all one person/god using mortality as a means of fixing their own psychological shit.

>>61975669
I don't think the dwarves would be required to be explicitly religious at all. Just because you are a part of some greater whole doesn't necessarily mean you are aware of it. In fact, since the god is dispersed and not collected as a single whole, is there really a god to worship at all? The god is literally themselves, so they would literally be worshiping themselves and their race as a whole. Which does link back to ancestor worship nicely.

In regards to playing a rogue which perhaps goes against the aspect they originally represent, this could just be a natural consequence of the god assuming mortal form. The submission to a mortal-like form making the god more subject to changes and mutations. This fits in with the idea that perhaps the whole reason for assuming form is to eliminate negative aspects.

>>61966611

The reason dwarves dont differ as much is dorfs tend to carve out their own environment into a mountain/hill face and live there. They aren't as much adapting as forcibly terraforming their local area to be how they like it.

There might be a difference in the food they consume, the methods they hunt with on the surface or the materials they gather based on veins they find but them being stubborn mountain jews is what makes dwarves, dwarves.

>>61975928
>dwarven gods backpack across the Material Plane to find themselves
>occasionally go through emo phase
Goddammit, I loved the idea, but now it's hilarious to me.

>>61976048
>edgiest dwarves end up killing all of their kin
>god eventually reforms as the ultimate teenage edgelord
Oh no. Make it not so.

>>61976199
Literally the Duregar.
On a productive note, what are some gods/aspects that would show up as subraces?
5e has martial ability (Mountain Dwarves get armor) and hardiness (Hill Dwarves get more health).
Maybe clan bonds (Pack Tactics?) or commerce (Negotiation proficiency and advantage on appraising jewels?).

>>61976444
You could probably say "depends on the setting", but you could turn to feats for potentially relevant abilities like 'resilient', 'survivalist' or something else relevant to that god. Maybe resistance to fire?

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>>61976444

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>>61977269

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>>61977283

Stay safe tonight thread.

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Dwarves make fantastic protagonists and they deserve more time in the spotlight.

Furthermore is it 'Dwarves' or 'Dwarfs', 'Dwarven' or 'Dwarfen'?

>>61977731
I like to use dwarves and dwarven for modern fantasy dwarves, and dwarfs for the original mythological creatures and people with dwarfism.

Obviously, the proper term is dorf.

>>61977731
I know that it's Dwarfs, I know why it's Dwarfs, I know why people mistake it for Dwarves, I know where Dwarves was popularized, and even as I'm typing this, Dwarves gets a red squiggle and Dwarfs does not.
I still use Dwarves. Also, I have literally never seen Dwarfen, and it looks dumb as hell.

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>>61978104
>Dwarfen
I don't know...maybe if it's an in-universe text and you're going for a more archaic feeling it'd be fine. I kinda like it.

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So what brings dwarves together to unite and have such strong kinship? Under the god manifestation concept there was the idea that dwarves coming together become capable of great impossible feats. I've seen ideas of hivemind like dwarves before to explain it, but I feel like that doesn't really capture dwarves well and just turns them into an ant colony.

For a closer comparison, mammals are probably a better thing to base that kind of community off. So there are herd animals, and they generally keep together in groups for safety against predators. So maybe there is some creature which is a natural predator of dwarves. elves The other situation I can think of is groups of mammals huddling for body heat, though maybe they can get something else from huddling near each other?

>>61979266
Dwarven communities could simply be a by-product of the sheer scale of their enterprises.
Want to be a blacksmith? You need someone to mine the ore, someone to smelt the ore, someone to ship the bars, and someone to sell to.
Want to be a brewer? You need a farmer, a barrel-maker, and a shipper.
Want to make clothes? You need a weaver, a dyer, a thread-maker, and a designer.
Dwarven civilizations are what happens when your entire supply chain, from dirt to customer, are all dwarves.

>ant colony
The comparison is apt for more reasons than building tunnels. Everyone works for the Mountainhome, everyone has a job, and that job is just about all they do.
Dwarves, typically, have one job. When everyone does one thing, and every outpost is styled like a city, it takes a lot of people to make it all run.
(Personally, I imagine dwarves to work for months at a time, then take a week off. Blame Dorf Fort and its month-long parties.)

Remember, Dwarves are not humans. They don't have to think like humans, they don't have to act like humans, they don't have to be humans.
It's easy to overlook that, but non-human races acting weird isn't a flaw. Over in the elf dating thread, I mentioned that individual elves can, and often do, outlive civilizations. That makes for weird behavior.
Sometimes, you can just say "Dwarves have strong kinships" and not have to make it make sense to us. We're humans. All we can do is guess.

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>>61966611
I personally find it kinda odd that nomadic merchant dwarfs aren't really a thing.
Tribes of merchant dwarfs seem like the perfect thing to roam the not!Silk Road lugging precious trade goods to and from rich empires and states. The bigger tribes and confederacies are large enough to basically be their own mobile cities who set up huge markets wherever they stop for the day. The well-off cities on or close to the road will have individual trade deals with these tribes which allows the tribe to stick along for a longer period of time.
The interaction between different merchant tribes would be varied with some working well together, perhaps even having trade-deals amongst themselves to stop and set up camp at specific places and dates to allow trade between themselves or to form varies monopolies on trade goods. Others meanwhile would be pretty if not outright hostile to eachother with bloodshed the likely result if they ever cross paths.
Living a life on the road with a constant need to protect their valuables have also lead these tribes to evolve something of a notoritety as warriors. Some of these tribes might even specialise as short-term mercenaries for states in need of a quick influx of troops.

>>61979466
I believe Tolkien had Petty Dwarfs, who were mean nomadic folk in some of his Silmarillion era stuff like the Children of Hurin. Mostly, they were shits, but shits that felt a little closer to their characterization from Norse myth.

>>61979466
My go-to nomadic sometimes-mercenary traders are actually Half-Orcs. Used to the rough roads, handles well in a fight, and sometimes has gods for sale with questionable origins.
Now, road outposts, I could see that as Dwarves. One of the traits most Dwarves have is a kind of stay-put attitude to their homes that doesn't go well with the merchant caravan.
Put that attitude in a series of towers along a large stone road where you might not get visitors for weeks, though, and you've got yourself a clan, not to mention well-maintained bridges.
Have each tower produce one thing and get the caravans moving along the road to ship it to the others as a toll to keep everyone fed and clothed.

>>61979542
Goods for sale, even, but now I'm imagining a kind of Small God quick-cleric deal.
>Yeah, I worship Blahbla, Goddess of getting paid to create food and water. Gonna tithe or not?

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>>61979466
An evolutionary offshoot of these mercenary-tribes could be tribes that enter in to long-term contracts as Mercenary Companies (with their own tross consisiting of the wifes, children and the elderly aswell as the odd merchant/labourer who for some reason is deemed unfit for warfare).
These tribes would roam the world in pursuit of a suitable employer which they possibly wouldn't have a problem persuading by the odd threat of rampaging through their lands if not employed. In the long run these tribes, if not suitably reigned in, could come to dominate entires region by submerging them in to a constant state of warfare between increasingly fractured and petty rulers who eventually find their power resting solely on the capability to pay their dwarven mercenaries.

>>61966611
>What about Deep Dwarves adapted to the oppressive darkness of the underground?
Those are Dueregar
>Snow Dwarves living in the frozen wastes?
Those are Shield Dwarves

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>>61968531
What do Duergar do?

>>61979610
Enslave lesser races via murderbanditry

>>61979610
Same as Drow, but with pickaxes.

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>>61979431
I wasn't trying to imply that they had to think like us. I just wasn't a fan of the idea that they are a collective hivemind like intelligence, as if dwarves don't have any real individuality. And while they fit into certain roles and serve the greater community, they are still individuals. It is more communism than like a hive.

As I have said earlier in the thread, it is good to look at the fundamentals of what dwarves are in order to determine what makes them the way they are, and leads to the behaviours they have whether they are familiar or not. I mentioned already how for elves it is their immortality which is the cornerstone of what makes them different before all else.

But you are right that just the sheer scale of the projects they undertake will require thriving efficient communities to make them come to fruition. So that does give a good reason to bound together naturally. Taking that further then, if giant large scale projects is what drives large dwarven communities, then what drives large scale projects. Before in the thread we've had dwarves doing this potentially as inherently creative beings, there's been the idea of seeking perfection.

Maybe one driving force is something to go with taming and dominion over things in the world. Looking at dwarf fortress, it is very common that players go ahead and tame war tigers or to try to settle what should be inhospitable. If this is a driving force, what do you think we could attribute it to? What is there deep in the dwarf psyche that makes them subjugate their environment?

>>61979542
>Now, road outposts, I could see that as Dwarves. One of the traits most Dwarves have is a kind of stay-put attitude to their homes that doesn't go well with the merchant caravan.
>Put that attitude in a series of towers along a large stone road where you might not get visitors for weeks, though, and you've got yourself a clan, not to mention well-maintained bridges.
>Have each tower produce one thing and get the caravans moving along the road to ship it to the others as a toll to keep everyone fed and clothed.
That type of dwarven clan seem like a really neat idea which I really dig.
My concept of nomadic tribes could possibly be the descendants of exiled dwarfs who have no choice but to find a living away from their ancestors' keeps and tunnels and thus found a niche as the go-betweens of the dwarven settlements. This living as small scale traders and messengers would for some of them prove lucrative enough to start expanding and pushing away or incorporating other more small scale operations which in turn would allow them to traverse larger distances and tie more people to them which would be the birth of the tribal system aswell as long-distance trade-journeys which, as they expand in scope, will eventually necessitate a fully nomadic lifestyle.
As generations pass by these nomadic dwarfs begun to see the the road and their wagons as their keep and home.

>>61979704
Dwarves don't make anything temporary. Ancestor worship is only half of it: whatever one makes must also last for your descendants to use.
To make a home that will support not only your children, but your clan's children and their children's children, you need to go big, and you need to build for the future.
This is what your ancestors did, after all: that's why you built statues to honor them, and why you need to do something worthy of the statue your children will build.
Dwarven society is a series of respectful one-upsmanship: you're not being better than your ancestors, you're being as good as their legends.
This, coupled with the natural increase in population, causes a lot of very impressive feats to be accomplished.

>>61979849
That kinda explains why dwarfs are the way they are normally I guess, but that really isnt making any new dwarfs.... Dwarfs make huge ass towers??

>>61979849
Stuff like this has always got me confuzzed.
Dwarves are all about ambition, making bigger and better things and always improving all the time.

So why are humans defining trait in df that 'they are prone to great ambition'?

>>61980312
Because writers can't come up with something better.

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>>61980312
I think one way you could look at it, is that humans are prone to individual ambition, but dwarves are prone to collective ambition as a society. Or maybe that humans are socially ambitious, while dwarves are ambitious in a material sense. I think though that ambition is not one of the best characteristics to classify dwarves though, for this reason.

Wasn't there a post in this thread earlier about Uvandir and how cool they were or am I tripping balls?

Also there was a thread a long time ago that dealt with such interesting concepts such as dwarves turning to stone with age, eventually becoming statues, and the most dedicated craftsmen slowly being burnt into obsidian by the heat of their forges.

>>61971697
Underrated post

>>61981069
>>61971697
Alright, I'll bite.
What's the actual flavor differences here?
Cultural influences I suppose?

>>61981109
The dwarves die of thirst if they drink anything that isn't the drink from their sub race. Brewers are so central to dwarven civilisation because without their perfected craft, all dwarves would die of thirst.

>>61979610

Gonna need the sauce on that senpai.

I think that Confucianism fits well with dwarves but i never saw something similar in settings.
Also dwarves being respectful to ancestors and elders could be applied to duergar in a twisted way: elders uses necromancy/Magic to become inmortals and creates a sort of undead ancestors senate in every duergar fortress.

>>61980761
Thats literally chaos dwarfs

>>61982208
Do you think the ancestors would still have the same respect if they are undead? Sure they are technically "ancestors" but if you are there talking to them it probably gets classed under elderly before anything else.

>>61984330
Well surely they are elders and so are respected, if that process is deserved to only the most worhty would be an explaining why they are revered also as ancestors.
Still ancestors that are dead are also worthy of respect as being "ancestors".
Still the use of necromancy makes this more interesting for duergar, for good dwarves seems unnatural.
This is a perversion of ancestor worship because is taken to the extreme.

>>61983090
*chaos dwarf sorcerers
And there's nothing new under the sun m8.

>>61979610
>yfw ywn have big titty goth shortstack Thicc GF who can enlarge person herself sometimes so she's 7' tall.

Shortstack AND amazon snu snu gf in one delicious dorfgirl package.

>>61968048
Beards on female dwarves are a tired meme.

>>61985821
Expecting other races to conform to human standards of beauty is a tired meme.
I bet you complain about peahens looking dumpy too.

>>61986017
Humans are invariably the people consuming the media and playing as these races in games Anon, they should, to an extant, not be repulsive.
A bearded lady is repulsive to most folks, including me.

>>61967965
noice.

>>61986715
Half-Orcs are a thing, as are monster races.
There's also a difference between "would not fug" and "repulsive".

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>>61966611
My fantasy setting has more than a handful of kinds of dwarves, with the "bog standard" dwarves still being a bit of a twist on the typical trope in that they have a strong arcane magic tradition. Leaning more towards wizards than sorcerers, in a surprising move for a militant society.

But there's a subtype of dwarf that lives in the fjords and thus sails ships with great proficiency, prefers ranged weapons, and consider sahuagin their blood foes.

There's a subtype of dwarves that live deep in a massive rainforest, carving out homes inside the huge trees' root systems, and bearing a much greater resemblance to wood elves than traditional dwarves.

I just think about the ways their environment would shape their perceptions, preconceptions, and biases and make cultures that are appropriate.

>>61987172
Monstrous races are supposed to be monstrous, and half-orcs have their dedicated fans and perverts to fawn over them.
Bearded females for a very humanoid, 'protag' race is needlessly outlandish, repugnant, and hampering, in my opinion.

>>61968970
>just make Dwarves culturally different, don't change their phenotype based on their habitat!
>posts a picture of a dwarf that has a noticeably different phenotype than other Dwarves because of his habitat
Sure are a fuckin retard, encha boy?

Duergar are actually the most powerful race in my setting in terms of influence. Dwarves at large split off because elves promised a better life as their slaves, working quarries and lumberyards. There was a further split in a rebellion as steady and surefooted dwarves found an advantage on the seas. So the three are as follows.

>Duergar
Hyper communist world police that wage endless war with apocalyptic powers underground.

>Mountain Dwarves
Hard working and honorable sort that place value in myth and culture

>Sea Dwarves
Gypsies/Jews/Pirates with boats.

>>61980550
Maybe humans take ambition to it's extreme, while dwarves rarely allow themselves to be devoured by their ambition. It's how I do my humans, they're the ones that have to take shit too far. "Oh those orcs wiped out one of our towns, you know what that means. CRUCIFY! CRUCIFY!"

Dwarf Fortress is the ultimate resource for subterranean resources such as livestock and plants.

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>>61966611

Dwarves are basically USSR Russians in my setting. Huge land force, used to have good Navy but got fucked up by Jap- I mean Elves and land disputes is preventing them from building up another.
Long lasting stuff and obviously Commie.

>>61980312
>So why are humans defining trait in df that 'they are prone to great ambition'?
Because dwarves may care about gold, or family, or lasting things, but humans above all lust for power.

That's what ambition means for people, to get in power, to have power, to have the opportunity, the possibility to do things.

Dwarves are perfectly happy with actually getting things, not coveting the power to do so.

>>61990727
>USSR
>long lasting

>>61990966
Funny enough, even though the USSR was a colossal mess, their gear's fucking immortal.

>>61991006
The great Dwarven weaponsmith Mosin Nagant. Sure, he only made crossbows, but he made a metric fuckton of them.

>>61991006
That's because Communism/Socialism is a joke. But in a fantasy world it can work, hence Commie Dorfs. Dwarven Culture is different so maybe it would work for them. Also going off of mentioned above you can do a "Fury Road" thing with different houses (Joe, Gun guy, Cannibal guy) trading with eachother to get that tradesmen/Jew aesthetic.

>>61991108
>implying Dorfs didn't invent firearms

>>61991137
I just don't think naturally conservative creatures like Dwarves capable of shit like Socialism. If you're gonna go for a Russian Empire but Dwarves analogy, it'd honestly be more true to the Dwarves if the not!Tsar's still in power with maybe some kind of parliament.

>>61991184
That could work too. I was just thinking of Dwarfs being "everyone has a job, everyone gets the same shit, do your job or fuck off, also bigass land Army"
But Tsar Dwarves are good because I doubt a dwarf would murder a royal family including the daughters because of fantasy WWI made them poor... or maybe...

>>61991251
That's kind of another thing. Is this supposed to be medieval? Because a medieval equivalent of WW1 would be pretty underwhelming compared to the real deal.

>>61991417
Why? Trenches can still be a thing and magic can fill in where technology (or lack thereof) can't.
Who was the first to drop M̶u̶s̶t̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶G̶a̶s̶ Stinking Cloud on the other?

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>>61973466
Excellent post. Thank you

>>61991714
Because it's pretty hard to muster and manage a medieval war where millions are dying. A war with tens of thousands is more in the manageable ballpark.

>>61991912
I don't see why.

But the better question is: what would each race be in the Great War and who would Ally with who?

>>61991977
I dunno, just whatever tickles your fancy I guess. The Great War was a really complex conflict so.

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>>61989933

Lali-Ho!

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With the discussion about 'what makes a dwarf' a lot of it suggests it's their craft and their industry that makes them what they are, and I tend to agree, although I would also add 'community' on to that. I find the idea that Dwarves value, above all else, their friends and family, so comfy that I desperately want to include it.

But in a society totally geared towards industry and tradition, how do you handle Dwarves who don't want to tread the same halls and rooms for their whole lives? Those who dream of clear skies and distant lands?

Surely not every dwarf will *want* to be a part of the great industries doing what everyone in their family has been doing for generations and generations, or think they would better serve their people doing something, anything else.

Are they cast out? Become rangers or adventurers? Leave in the night to seek their own fortunes elsewhere?

>>61993680

I'd say Rangers

Man this is a nice thread. I'm combining many of these ideas for my dorfs.

>>61990900
Now I want to be a dwarf.

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>>61993680
It would vary on a case by case basis depending on the culture. The communal aspect of dwarf society is important clearly. If the society thinks of dedication to family and friends as a duty, then wanting to go out on your own is a deniable of that duty, and could potentially lead to exile. But if considering something like:
>>61979266
If coming together is a herd animal mentality, then the other dwarfs in the community might think you are insane or suicidal to go out on your own. It probably depends on what subculture there is, for what it means for a dwarf to go out on their own and become independent.

>>61993680
I'd imagine, if a Dwarf felt strongly about something, they'd do it on their own, whether that thing is starting a new business or a new life.
If they're lucky, they'd get some supporters from the clan to follow them, but if not, they're on their own.
At that point, they find a job outside of their civilization, usually in a human town, and set to building a life.
After enough time, they've either carved out a new outpost for themselves or started a family, and now they're a new clan. But the old clan never leaves them.
Maybe they trade with the Mountainhomes to support their old family, or maybe they do it to prove the value of their new ways. Either way, the connection is still there.
Dwarves don't actually colonize or settle new lands as a civilization, they just wait for individual Dwarves to do it on their own.

TL;DR: They start their own clan, with blackjack and hookers.

>>61994473
I like your angle, although I would say that Dwarves DO colonize, but not at all aggressively or as a point of policy. Like you said, eventually a dwarf will want for it, and will go out and do it on their own.

This brings up a very important question however, in the case that a Dwarf ends up in a human settlement...
Do half-dwarves happen?

>>61994606
What if Dwarves themselves are half-Human and half-Gnome or something? Either way half-Dwarves exist in 4e.

Also Dwarves colonies like Russians: by taking ALL THE LAND! Maybe with an Iron Curtain and everything.

>>61994606
>Do half-dwarves happen?
Well, let's see what that would look like.
>short, like a dwarf, but not as strong
>strong family ties, but probably more gregarious to outsiders like humans
>lives underground, but not nearly as deep as dwarves
>loves the drink of dwarves and the foods of humans
>desire to stay put, without the work ethic, leads to sedentary lifestyle
Why does this sound familiar?

>>61994763
Are the "strong family ties" strictly in relation to their Mommies?

>>61990900
I feel like that's more of a hobbit trait.
A long-running theme of The Hobbit is the Dragon Sickness, the lust for gold and power, that consumes men and elves and dwarves alike. It infects the Master of Lake Town, Bard, Thranduil, Thorin's father and Thorin himself. Only Bilbo can remain unswayed by greed.

Dorfs > Elf

>>61994878
The dragon sickness did seem to be particular strong among the dwarves though. Maybe going back to OPs suggestion about dwarves are different metals, digging up these relevant metals really does make the dwarves more powerful.

>>61979466
>>61979504
I don't think the Petty Dwarves were nomadic, they did dona lot of surface foraging that got them almost wiped out, but even the relatively small settlement that eventually became Amon Rudh once Turin got it as the Dwarf's ransom was pretty decent in size and decidedly dug in .

(I may have also stolen its description for my own stuff.)

>>61981975
Artist is surrealkatie/katiethemoo. Character is their friends Dark Iron DK.

>>61988316
I mean that's what happened to the cave Hyena among other predators. Early humans had the concepts of hate, revenge, and collective guilt and reacted to predators killing their young by lighing fires in their dens.

>>61966794

Dwarves fit best as Wizards.

>>61997252
I have never seen a setting where Dwarves are wizards.

How do you do your dorfwizards anon?

>>61997417
Not anon, but if you think about it, there's nothing about dwarfs specifically which means that they shouldn't use magic. It is a common trope that dwarfs hate magic, but it feels way more tacked on then anything else. Which is probably since Tolkien didn't seem to suggest this. Often dwarfs do "rune magic" but this is still magic right? Sure it is a particular magic system, but there is nothing inherently special or different about it.

In warhammer, I'm pretty sure dwarfs don't use magic simply because the winds of magic and chaos are dangerous, which is fair enough. But that doesn't imply that magic is the problem in of itself. In the same universe, there are chaos dwarfs which have sorcerers as a prominent part of their society. Which both reflects the idea that the dwarfs disregard magic in the warhammer universe because it is dangerous and corrupting, but also that dwarfs can be magic users too.

In terms of what anon said as being best fit for wizards, I can see what he means. Dwarfs are seen as dedicated and masters of their crafts, and wizards represent that from a scholarly perspective. But we will probably see more dorfwizards in the future. I imagine when the dorf fort magic and myth update comes out it will be very influential on the subject.

>>61997695
In Warhammer, Dwarves can't channel the winds of magic straight up, which doesn't bother them none. Chaos Dwarf sorcerers force magic into their bodies which invariably slowly kills them.

Runes is the only Dwarven method of magic and is done by highly-trained professionals who bully magic into runes.

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Let's combat the idea that Dwarves are boring.
What are some interesting plot or adventure hooks for dwarf-centric adventures?

>>61991006
>Funny enough, even though the USSR was a colossal mess, their gear's fucking immortal.
That's because communists don't do designed obsolescence.

>>62000417
I'm gonna contribute because I like this thread.

Miners in one of the oldest mines in the Fortress have been reporting sightings of leering, grinning faces in the dark. People living near those miners homes have started reporting them as well.

A bi-annual pilgramage of Cave-Druids are passing through the keep under the watchful eyes of the guards, but a long-exiled and dangerous Druid of Decay has made an appearance and threatens the pilgramage, and by extension, the fortress.

A mimic or swarm of coin bugs has snuck into a local bank, leading to a wild goose-chase as people try to find and oust the beast.

The biggest forge in the keep is behind its production quota. The chief reason? The sparks from the forging and machinery are coming to life as firey fey.

An Earthquake passes by the fort, after it passes the citizens of the fort discover that a seemingly random number of locations around the fort have been sealed off by stone, and all inside have been petrified.

A prominent gemcutter is insisting that *something* is lurking in the facets of the gems he is being brought, and is found dead shortly after he refuses to deal with the Dwarves selling him the gems.

All the coins with a specific Dwarven King and Queen printed on them have started talking.

A member of the Royal family returns from war, during the feast, the wailing spirits of all Dwarves slain in the battle manifest, screaming and accusing the returning royalty of betrayal.

A new fertilizer mix has proven very effective.
Far too effective, actually. The plants are growing at an impossibly fast rate, and plant-monsters have begun to spawn in the most overgrown farmplots.

The tools of a venerable craftsdwarf, long dead, have appeared in a local, family-owned smithy, as the family uses them, the crsfts produced are of incredible quality, but not all is as it seems with these tools.

Age of Smegmar has
-city dwarves
-sky dwarves
-volcano dwarves
-hell dwarves
-forest dwarves

>>62000973
tell me about the volcano ones

>>62001020
they're kinda like telchines

they're butt-naked, they have a goofy helmet with a crest, and they collect gold so that their smiths can find bits of ur-gold in it, and make magic runes out of em

then they make piercings with those runes and it gives em super strength and fire powers. They work as mercenaries.

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>>62000417
While she was the odd one out, everyone always liked the local town dwarf. She was friendly, hardworking and willing to lend a hand. Then one day she disappeared. The townspeople find her later in her home, eyes glazed over screaming that she needs metal bars and cut gems.

>>61987632
I'm not even that anon, but
>Blue skin and beards of ice
Isn't just phenotype, pal. That's some goofy-ass fantasy stuff, and the only way to get from normal warm-blooded dwarf with normal beard made out of normal hair to that is fucking magic. I don't mind that as much as the other anon.

>Mongolian steppes dwarf
Is a different phenotype, but at least it's believable without supernatural causes.

>>61968805
You're pretty much right. But I think that some variants justify their existence. For example, I think Dark Elves are unique enough to be a worthwhile variant race.

>>62001607
Anon.
I'm having fun in this thread.

So why do you keep reminding that Dwarf Fortress is so superior to what we are doing here?

>>61980312
I thought dwarves were more about greed and the frustrations of greed?

In the setting I am brainstorming the Dark Dwarf/Duergar/Dark Iron are partners with the Fire Giants they build vast underground highways and golem armies.

>>61966611

There should be a million Dwarven subcultures. Think of any hill people. They tend to be insular and inward-focused, clan-based people prone to warring among themselves.

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>>61968048
You're right, dwarf women should have beards :^)

>>62006396
That angle is a bit dark, don't you think?
Yes it's good when you want to play up Dwarven folly but as a driving emotion, I think it sets Dwarves up to be villains or fools.

Pickaxes are the best weapons for a dorf.

>>61969627
Help! I can't feel my beard!

>>61966611
Fantasy Craft has quite a variety of dwarven subraces -- or stats for them, anyway. Being a toolkit system that tries to stay fairly setting-agnostic, the fluff for them is rather minimal.

>Hill Dwarves
More adventurous and well-traveled than mountain dwarves, given to wanderlust and a thirst for new experiences.

>Volcano Dwarves
Quicker and more agile than standard mountain dwarves, as well as resistant to fire and heat, and able to emit heat and flame with their attacks.

>Sea Cliff Dwarves
Originating from coastal areas, they developed a maritime trade culture, and are accomplished sailors and merchants. They're also good swimmers, unlike most dwarves who are generally mediocre at best.

>Crag Dwarves
Nimble dwarves from steep chasms and the most harrowing mountain slopes. They are exceptional climbers and runners, good jumpers (unlike most dwarves), and very wary of outsiders.

>Deep Dwarves
Basically duergar -- sneaky, cunning, underhanded, and adapted to the complete blackness of deep cavern systems.

>Dune Dwarves
Bedouin dwarves with considerable stamina, even by dwarven standards.

>Glacier Dwarves
Arctic dwarves resistant to cold and well-adapted to surviving in harsh, barren landscapes.

>Jewel Dwarves
Born aristocrats of dwarvenkind, naturally charismatic and good at acquiring wealth.

>Mountain Dwarves
Wait, I thought these were the default dwarves...at least that's what the core book calls them...but then the Adventure Companion adds a splinter race option for mountain dwarves. Maybe they'd be more aptly called "avalanche dwarves", because basically they're exceptionally good at unarmed combat, and even gain a trample attack (though they can only use it on Small or smaller characters -- good enough to stomp on goblins and kobolds, anyway). Also can be good at jumping.

Beach Dwarves are the best variant. Put em in hawaiian shirts, give em tiki torches and bamboo huts, let them brew fruity cocktails, it writes itself

>>62009594
Best sidearm, maybe.
Spears work better in the tunnels. Thrusting doesn't require room to swing, the reach eliminates height differences, and the image of a dwarf bracing a spear to fend off an onslaught is amazing.
Poleaxes are preferred in wider areas. The added leverage makes the blade strike harder on swings.
Greataxes and battleaxes are a show of individual strength over weapon strength. Successfully using them shows great skill in the dwarf, and only the best are trusted to use them effectively.
You hear a warpick crying in the distance.

>>62009771
I think it's a little nuts to have so many different species of niggas around. I personally don't think Dwarves are the most ever-evolving creatures around, however it'd make sense for them to live all over the place because the Dwarves can certainly be expansionists.

>>62009857
Yeah I tend not to like the "ten different racial variants" approach - it makes more sense to treat it as national differences, like if you have one dwarf nation in the mountains and one along the coast then sure they're going to be a little different but it doesn't have to be two different species.

In fantasy settings it's fine for there to be a hundred different human nations where they're all humans but every discrete non-human nation seems to need a whole different species to live there.

>>62009981
Yeah, that's why I'm kind of toying with the idea of possibly having humans as the only race with actual meta subraces whereas everyone else is technically just one race with some cultural differences. Like having Orcs as a distant offshoot of humans while the Dwarves are technically just another species of Humans that evolved differently and stuff.

>>62009815
Warpicks instead of swords as a backup for speardwarves?

>>62004152
But the ice beard dwarves are literally half elementals at that point because they've absorbed a shit ton of magic from being slaves in the ether or whatever. Nobody just has random snowbeard dwarves, it's pretty much only present in already over-the-top settings

>>61966611
In a fantasy setting I'm working on, dwarves are descended from hardy (and short) mountain-dwelling humans who were the first to suss out the bare basics of mining of metal working. The world was pretty chaotic in those days, so they just sort of holed up and kept to themselves until a dimension-hopping vessel from a similar but much older universe managed to crash land in their territory. In return for food and shelter, the surviving crew traded their knowledge of metallurgy, chemistry (including distillation and brewing), engineering, etc., effectively jumpstarting dwarven industrialization. The survivors eventually died and were venerated as inspiration-granting patron saints of crafting, the closest approximation to an official pantheon in the dwarven religion. Outside of that, it's all ancestor worship with a pseudo-Buddhist emphasis on being so dwarfish that their spirits eventually merge with this great platonic ideal of dwarf-dom, thereby improving the entire race that much more. There's little room left for gods, given that (1) they'd already fucked up the world by a number of objective measurements and (2) the dwarves really don't want their souls being whisked away to a dozen different heavenly realms just because they got too chummy with any given deity. This hasn't changed much over time, nor has dwarven culture in general, given most of the race is biologically hardwired toward a conservative mindset. On one hand, this makes their society very stable and revolutions are rare. On the other, they are a very stubborn people who adapt to change through technological innovation and little else.

>>62010348
As a whole, dwarves are greedier and more pig-headed than humans, but on the flip side have developed a strange anathema toward dishonesty. Personal honor is huge in dwarven culture. Promises and contracts are binding. Infidelity is nearly unheard of, not because dwarves suddenly lose interest in anyone save their spouse, but because the idea of going back on their oaths is personally repulsive and would surely make them a social pariah. Blood oaths occur but are handled in a very up-front manner with sacred rules. If a noble is gunning for the throne or a merchant is trying to run a competitor out of business, they throw down the gauntlet in public. Subterfuge is for elves. Specifically dark elves, the ones most likely to encroach on underground dwarven territory. This has caused more than a little animosity between the two races.

>>62010469
I always thought there was a cool parallel between Dwarves and Klingons when it came to their honor system with oaths and family allegiances and whatnot. Too bad Klingons are usually used like Orcs when playing the villain, mostly because television science fiction writers are hacks I suppose

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You could have an entire setting that's *just underground* in a fantasy world.

Entire cultures, biomes, practically an entire second world that has never seen the sun.

>>62010581
Klingons have been all over the place in terms of hat. Their earliest incarnation boiled down to being Soviets In Space with the serial numbers filed off. Later they became a mix of what you said and honorabu samurai, with the ratio being dependant on the writer.

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>>62010682
I really fucking love the OG Klingon aesthetic, though.

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So we have had dwarves brought up from different environments, such as from age of shitmar and fantasy craft. When compared to elves of course, the idea of slapping a biome onto an elf is the most standard and generic thing you can do. This probably reflects that elves have had more development than dwarves in fantasy in terms of how they are perceived.

However, it is important, as it does mean that it is safe to move dwarves out of the typical "stone, ore and cavern" associations. At first I was thinking that dwarves are adaptive and live into their environment, being efficient and shaped by what they have around them, but this is more just an outcome of culture in general and has nothing to do with dwarves. One thing which can probably be distinguished is that elves live 'with' the environment; they nurture and don't change the environment. Dwarves on the other hand live 'in' the environment; they shape and bend the environment to their will and use it to its utmost.

>>62006019
I am definitely not the only person to mention dwarf fortress, and I have contributed my fair share to this thread otherwise. There is nothing wrong with bringing up dwarf fortress in a thread which asks how we can change dwarves. Rather, you should stem your inferiority complex.

>>62010077
read the shannara chronicles

>>61966821
Childhood is thinking Zeus were the good guys
Adulthood is realizing that Cronos was the best choice for humanity

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>>61977731
I remember an anon who gave free copies of his ebook novel about dwarves

I think the name was Deep Sounding or something?

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>>62012487
I think the point of that whole deal is that eventually pantheons get replaced. Ouranos got killed by his son Chronos, who then got usurped by Zeus. We don't know what Chronos was up to because there aren't a whole lot of stories detailing it apart from how Chronos learned one of his children would usurp him, therefore he proceeded to eat his children and inevitably lose his throne anyway to Zeus.

>>62012666
We do know however that the Golden Age of Humanity happened in Cronos reign

and with Zeus humanity starts to degrade more and more with every generation

>>62012682
Technically during Zeus's reign it was decided to start over, which was one of two times a flood was used to wipe out the current batch of humanity. Humanity in general did degrade, but it was also thanks to Zeus that the Age of Heroes took place.

>>61968591
Machismo Mexican Cartel dwarves would be fucking awesome.

>>62013198
Do you mean the part where they smuggle ale, or the part where they chop buses full of people in half that get in their way?
I'm fine with either.

>>62010077
I've basically done that in my world. Dwarven kingdom normally have two scial groups that have some crossover, those that live in the cities underground and those that tend to a lot of the farming and trading above. Since my group plays 5e, the former is mountain, the latter hill.

>>61966611
Okay Dwarf nerds, we've talked about how dwarves are in the present, let's talk a bit about the past.

>>What were early dwarves like?
>>Were they always underground, or did something force them there?

>>62015112
Do you mean like the species before modern dwarf like homo erectus to modern man, or like Hunter-gatherers to medieval humans, or like early Mesopotamian cities to medieval humans?

>>62015280
Funny because my Dwarves are Ruydian instead of shitty Scot.

>>62015300
Russian*
wtf

Here’s an idea to explain why dwarves are the way they are that doesn’t rely on cultural associations or gods interference: they have a non-existent or extremely suppressed adrenaline response. This is balanced by the fact that they are very strong and have great endurance, but they can never “bump it up” in a very tense moment. It would explain why they are seen as tireless workaholics, because they don’t get the rise out of things that humans do, so their enjoyment comes from a sense of accomplishment or community, rather than fleeing highs or excitement. Their stubbornness is from the fact that they don’t get bored or distracted and can put their entire focus on their work due to not needing to find a new source of adrenaline.

What do you guys thing?

>>61966611
I always thought having gnomes and dwarves be separate races to be weird.

According to some super superficial research I did one time, turns out Gnomes are essentially the ancient Greek version of dwarves, as they are earth spirits that take on the shape of very small humans. Might be this is just one of many historical interpretations though and I just came across this one.

Anyhow, because of this connection, I am actually of the firm belief Gnomes should be a variant of Dwarves, with all the ensuing gnomish sub-races adding to the Dwarfish roster. This adds maybe less visual differentiation but a hell of a lot cultural variety to "Short Humans":
>Standard Dwarves live in the far north, fat and hirsute as they are, their build is made to withstand biting frost and primal beasts that stalk the toundra.
>Scandi, Scottish and northern Anglo themes everywhere
>Dragonships - But they're marvels of engineering that double as sleigh and can be used to fly across frozen plains! And the odd tinkerer has used magical runes and hot air to make the damn things literally fly!

>Gnomes are wiry, and while the odd one will have an astonishing moustache or wild mane, they are mostly hairless. They carve grand megacities into the arid canyons and create artificial hills, only to yet carve *more* megacities inside of them
>Greek, Macedonian, Phoenician and Assyrian themes
>Also ships, but much rather for trading and exploration than warfare or hunting beasts

>Tuatha/Faeries/Little folk are deep wood European voodoo ooga booga midgets that have created vast underground warrens, much like the Gummy Bears, in the forest realms. While Elves may soar through the branches overhead, the Tuatha skitter through the underbrush, foraging for food and hunting small animals as well as scouting any rampaging troll or orcish warband
>Are often mistaken for Goblins due to the fact these dudes have a much more animalistic approach than their northern or southern cousins

>>62015528
That's actually pretty good. They don't really experience big changes in their world experience. And we could take this further from just adrenaline. The reason why they are considered 'hardy' is because they don't generally feel much different from when they are hungry or full. The energy intake from food doesn't really change their productivity and they don't notice it much, albeit they need it to survive. This also kind of explains why they are generally considered alcoholics. The effects of ingestion of alcohol are minimal, and so they can drink a lot of it. Also, because of alcohol's effects, once they've drunk enough, they start to experience the world a bit differently, something inherently strange and otherwise foreign to a non-alcoholic dwarf.

>>62015922
Addendum:
In Kingdoms of Amalur, they straight up replaced traditional dwarfish stereotypes as crafty mountaineers with Roman gnomes, and dwarves/dverga were added in a DLC as basically pirates.

Regardless:

>Duergar/Chaos Dwarves are straight up just creepy underground dwarves who spend their days making shit and being angry at the surface realm for shunning them for polluting the sky and consuming vast swathes of forestland for their industry
>Probably closest to actual Dwarves in Norse mythology as opposed to short vikings

>>62015922
>super superficial research
Very superficial

Gnomes were invented by a 16th century alchemist as an earth spirit. Though the word gnome is a corruption of the Greek genomos, which means earth dweller and their traditional garden variety visuals are based on Greek pygmies.

I'm of the mind that gnomes have earned their own niche in fantasy, more so than halflings now days, but the Greek pygmies definitely have some dwarf like qualities. A 14th century story has them being good at working metal. Can't remember the name, it's probably on wikipedia considering I last looked this up for a school project years ago.

>>62016596
Maybe we could have it that gnomes were made by dwarves. As earth spirits it sort of makes sense, and then they inherited many of the traits of their creators.

>>62017878
The fuck? That's horrible.

Naw, for all it's worth, "Gnomes" should be to "Dwarves" what "Latinos" is to "Whites", or whatever. Same overarching family, different expression of their characteristics.

>>62018260
I misread what you said, not going to lie. I read it as something like gnomes were made by an alchemist or something like that. Thought it wouldn't be bad to maybe twist that around to some sort of dwarven alchemy.

Although, that is a topic by itself. Alchemy seems like something dwarves should be prone to. Dwarves are generally considered the race which will invent gunpowder first, so alchemy makes sense to fit with them. Despite the fact that this never happens.

>>62018260
Best of both worlds.
Gnomes are to Dwarves as Elves are to Humans.

A fey enchanted mirror?

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>>62018467
You have a point Anon.
What with all the brewing, the gunpowder, and the need for other subterranean essentials like light sources, flares, dynamite, magitek fuel for drills, and a proximity to underground caves no doubt filled with magical ingredients like mushrooms, cave moss, monster components and powdered minerals, dwarves should be master alchemists!

Like in >>61993680
Where the first health potions happened in Dwarven barrels, and pic related, it just makes too much thematic sense to leave alchemy out from dorfs.

>>62015251
Species before, if there even was one, as well as hunter-gatherer era.

>>62015251
Dwarved evolved from moles

>>62020066
'Giant' cave-moles are the Dwarf equivalent of dogs.

Blind, loyal, good with kids.

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>>61993680
Dwarves defined by their love for their kin and homes above all else?

I'm for it.

>>62018814
That is sort of what Gnomes are right now, aren't they?

For all intents and purposes, Gnomes really just boil down to twiggy tricksters, when in truth they should probably embody the Halfling stereotype. An acrobatic dwarf rather than a powerlifter. Their culture would still be associated with dwarfish things: Crafting, stone, metal, engineering, clan loyalty, pride in the hold, and so forth. However, it should be distinctly associated with their native biome. "Dwarf"-dwarves have that distinct sub-arctic or even arctic vibe, while Gnomes would be shaped by their distinct sub-tropic or arid environment. And this will naturally lead to differences in priorities, and eventually to a remarkable difference in aspects such as sciences or sorcery.

>>61968904
>swedish
>yodeling

We should be proud /tg/, we had an honest discussion thread that had no trolling, and passed 300 posts.

Refreshing, isn't it?

>>62026617
>thread lasted over three days
>at least one mention of Jews
>on-and-off elf mentions
>still pretty much always on topic
I loved this thread.

>>62029782
>at least one mention of Jews
Should we talk about how Tolkien Dwarves were a Jew analogue?

>>62029874
Thread's almost over, so if you really want to.
Basing your races off of existing cultures isn't necessarily a bad thing. Lord knows how many European, Mongol, and Native American analogues we've had.
Using this as inspiration for negative traits can also work if (and this cannot be stressed enough) you are not making a statement of opinion on that culture. Savage natives, haughty foreigners, foolhardy explorers, all of these are better than solely positive factions.
That being said, the used traits of Jewish cultures, both self-perceived and ascribed by others, are not a wholly or even mostly negative package. They were no more insular than other races, their craftsmanship was highly regarded, and their greed was something that afflicted every race (see >>61994878).
Tolkien's use of Jewish stereotypes was well handled as an easy way to create depth, rather than to make any comment on real factions. If he did, independently, make comments on them, he was at least skilled enough to not let that color his storytelling.

>>62030118
Really well written Anon.
Some good morals for worldbuilding.

Goodbye sweet dorf thread.
You were too good for this gay earf.

>>62031533
>>62031533

New thread made!
Come discuss all things dwarfy.