Suppose that the End Times didn't happen and instead the plot moved forward from a major Chaos Invasion that was fought off by the Empire, Dwarfs, and Elves. What would the Warhammer world look like in 2600?
>>57778614Exactly how it looked beforeAs always
>>57778614Well you'd need to redo the timelineMaybe reset from a Time Of Chaos?Karl Franz in a coma?Is this one of those /tg/ fan canon settings or something like the billion heresies?
>>57778630No Fantasy actually has some plot movement sorry 40kid
>>57778638>Maybe reset from a Time Of Chaos?Or just pick up from Storm of Chaos instead of the End Times.>Karl Franz in a coma?In some kind of Gilded Chair? I'm not sure whether that's great or terrible.
>>57778638>Karl Franz in a comaHow about instead, Karl Franz dies, and his underage son seizes the throne with the backing of some elector counts who want to rule through an easily manipulated mouthpiece?
>>57778739>>57778711What if Balthazar Gelt tries to seize power behind Karl Franz's son and a lot of nobles die enough that Gelt can try to reform the Empire to be more of a mageocracy much to the reeing of the Witch Hunters?
>>57778771That would definitely be an interesting way to go about it. Gelt rules through the son all but openly. Maybe there's some kind of Imperial schism, two different factions of the church of Sigmar? One that supports Gelt, one that breaks of to form kind of a rogue empire?
>>57778771>>57778880I can't see this going down without a civil war.
>>57778918Perhaps it doesn't because some other threats come down on them hard?
>>57778950Are Imperial nobles that enlightened? It's not like they put the Empire back together again during the Vampire Wars.
>>57778966They could lose a province or two, permanently.
No matter what the humans think they're doing, they're getting trolled by elves.
>>57779015Just keep the witch king as the witch king please.
>>57778989That's what I was thinking. The hardliners in the Church take over a couple provinces, and the rest of the Empire is too beset by other threats.
>>57779039Pick provinces for Sigmarite Theocracy. Probably not Reikland (it'd be weird to have the Wizards in charge but not in charge of Altdorf) or Ostland.
>>57779106My first thought is Averland and Wissenland. Averland because it is closest to Everpeak and the Dwarves would probably favor the splinter that was anti-magic; Wissenland because having a province right next to the Reikland (probably with Nuln as the capital in exile) is good drama.
>>57779030The Witch King is always the Witch King. Otherwise there's no Dark Elves and that would be a shame.
>>57778614Skaven scientists complete their research into nuclear weapons and lolstomp the rest of the setting.
>>57779263You know they'd test their nukes on themselves.
>>57778614If end times never happened, you'd be looking at pic related for your average 500pt game.
>>57779177It's a cute little block but Nuln is kinda sick of the Imperial nobility so making it the capital of the old guard is weird.Unless the whole city got wrekt in the course of the civil war and the Sigmarite Emperors are ruling from a burned out shell. (Or claiming said burned out shell as their nominal capital but actually reigning further south.)
>>57779191I mean the End Times Pheonix King bullshittery WHY WOULD THE WOOD ELVES LISTEN TO HIMYes I am still madAlso if we do anything Nagash, please, have the Tomb Kings die to the last man before ever following him
>>57779348No, if anything Gelt would ally hard with Nuln. Their interests align. >>57779330That's not what we mean and you know it. The rules were cool, some of the setting stuff was neat at the start. Then it went to shit hard. WHY DID THEY LUMP SKAVEN WITH CHAOS
>>57779348Stirland could also work, though I do like the idea of Nuln being turned into a symbolic ruin.
>>57779263>>57779290Although "Skaven nuke themselves" isn't a bad plot development assuming that there are still plenty of them and they invade interesting places. Storm of Chaos had the ratmen finally over-run Miragliano because fuck Tilea.
I think you could redo the fluff surrounding Bretonnia, Estalia, and Tilea. Tilea should be reeling hard from a Skaven invasion, so bad they might join up with another faction(And thus become relevant to the setting). Estalia has a lot of room to do stuff you can't in Bretonnia or the Empire...when you figure out what exactly that is call me.The whole Gelt taking over sounds neat in theory but again, execution execution execution. It's 9/10ths of the rule here with any fluff. Nagash is so satisfying because his story has a lot of moving parts beyond the jealous brother seeking dark god favoritism. He's incredibly smart, but also petty, and his own pettiness always weighs him down but because he's so powerful effected the whole rest of the setting.
>>57779432Because Skaven literally started out as a splinter of the Chaos faction way, way back around 3rd or 4th edition? Heck, there's a Skaven Daemon Prince in the Realms of Chaos duology!
>>57778614But what brothers, hark, of Kislev?Don't just make it a fucking barren wasteland out of the lack of creativity in every fucking big ass event/plot advance.
>>57779433Split Stirland, have the Gelt faction name someone as Count of Sylvania.>What an honour
>>57779488>I think you could redo the fluff surrounding Bretonnia, Estalia, and Tilea. Tilea should be reeling hard from a Skaven invasion, so bad they might join up with another faction(And thus become relevant to the setting).Rump Tilea could get annexed by the Gelt Empire. It's geographically wonky but so was the Habsburg Empire.>execution execution executionWell, if this was getting executed we'd need to know where we're going so kicking the idea around seems like a good idea right now.
>>57779518Hear me out now, just, be gentle here, but one idea could be the Tsarina hold up in Kislev with like, 10,000 survivors when a mysterious benefactor appears who is totally in no way not related to Nagash who offers her the Elixir of Immortality for herself and her nobles. Her council cautions her to take it and all the Kislevite nobility become vampires, but keep that shit secret and act like the Blood Dragons - hardly any magic, mostly martial leaning. And maybe towards the end of our tentative timeline, there is whispers of them being found out.
>>57779631Only if Katarin is dying from something. Also,>act like the Blood Dragons - hardly any magic, mostly martial leaningIsn't Katarin a master of ice magic? If you're doing some kind of Kislev bloodline, it should probably carry forward the ice witch thing.
>>57779550In the second book of Realms of Chaos, "The Lost and the Damned", there's a section on creating your own independent Chaos godlings. The sample Chaos godling is Kweethul Gristlegut, a Skaven Daemon Prince of such power that he has his own greater daemons, follower daemons, daemonic steeds, daemonic beasts, and table of god-specific Chaos Champion rewards.Also, in the first sourcebook, "Slaves to Darkness", a Chaos Champion could obtain bands of skaven as followers by rolling an 88-92 on their Retinue table (2d4 skaven per result rolled).So, yes, Skaven were originally part of the Chaos forces.Mind you, in those days, Chaos was strong enough that you could also have "corrupted" followers, allowing you to have Orc, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Halfling, Liche and Vampire followers, amongst others.
>>57779550>>57779784Their first appearance was as "Chaos Ratmen". But really, the "fold everyone into two mega-factions" deal was only necessary if there was going to be a giant mega-battle for the fate of the world.
>>57779784>>57779849This makes about as much sense as allowing Peasants to become Knights again for Bretonnia, or have Dwarven mages.
>>57778614>the End Times didn't happenIt didn't happen, depending on which divergence of WHFB you follow.I follow the non End Times version of course, because the End Times was donkey dick discharge.
>>57779522The single solitary witch hunter left gets to be the count of Sylvania. The Rogue Empire laughs at him for years.
>>57779878>implying that Repanse de Lyonesse doesn't make sense
>>57779902>non End Times versionThe idea here is that your preferred version continues through to 2600. What would that look like?
>>57779849>>57779878Honestly, I feel skaven work much better as part of the Chaos faction overall. They overlap too much; Clan Moulder is basically unable to shine because their whole schtick of breeding horrible beasties steps on Chaos' toes as THE faction with lots of gribbly monsters, whilst Clan Pestilens is literally just a Skaven Nurgle-cult.Clans Skryre and Eshin have unique flavor, yeah, but that still leaves half the Great Clans basically ripping off Chaos. And that's not getting into how the Warlord Clans basically rip off the same style as the Orcs & Goblins.
>>57779015>Dark elf trolling>Give the Forces of Order a hundred year peace so that they can devote their attention to Chaos>Give the humans a decade to calm down about Dark Elf raiders, then open up a trade enclave in Estalia>Buy impoverished Old World humans as slaves rather than raiding>Send off the more vigorous Dark Elves as mercenaries>2600>"hey we're just another bunch of elves guys">22 years of truce left
>>57780068>Clans Skryre and Eshin have unique flavorSo, Skryre nukes the other clans while Eshin hide in shadows. Problem solved.
>>57780068Speaking of offshoots to the Chaos Faction...I am firmly of the belief that the Chaos Dwarf Empire should be destroyed. Yes, it's cool and they have the best hats, but their lore says they're fucked and once Astragoth goes they're heading for a civil war they can't survive.Let the Hobgoblins inherit the Dark Lands as some kind of backstabby Mongol remix edit. The Chaos Dwarfs could linger on in Unzkulak as a crazy Chaos workshop but never again be a great power.
>>57779348>>57779432>>57779433>>57779522So, we set on stirland and averland as the Rogue Hardline Empire? And what about a name for it?
>>57780733I'd prefer southern Wissenland, Averland, western Stirland. They'd just call themselves "The Empire" but probably get referred to as "The Sigmarite Empire" with Gelt's lot being "The Reformed Empire".Also the Mootland claims to be part of both Empires because why be difficult?
>>57778614empire and brettonia deal with vampire invasions.elves continue to be useless drama shitstirrers naggroth can get deal with buttblasted chaos leftovers after both invasions fail.grimgor goes off to cause problems for someone in the backround for a while, silver pinnicle maybe? lamia getting its head cut off (even if only for a while) could lets lost of shit happen or maybe annhilate hellpit.Dwarfs.. fuck i'd love for them to actually make some meaningful gains but its would be wildly out of character for them. dipshit slayer king does NOT retake slayer oath.settra and nagash continue to fuck around in the southlands. maybe orcs?Borderprinces... orcs?Chaos Dwarfs.. remain in the backround? i like them but its not like they have a strong presence. seems like developing them would be its own project.ogres can fuck off don't care.Skaven can have a proper civil war. pestulence can go full nurgle cause fuck the horned rat that shtick's taken. optional hellpit annhilation (or temporary occupation by orcs.morrs gets its big shot, sharshink too.settra and nagash can continue to fuck around maybe lizardmen interruptlizards make some gains while nurgle skaven busy and chaos is waning..forgive spellling errors i'm not checking this shit too lazy.
>>57780782That seems fine. The Reformed Empire keeps Nuln and Sylvania. And honestly, I had no idea what to do with Mootland, so keeping them sort of neutral makes good sense.
>>57780919>empire and brettonia deal with vampire invasions.Red Duke having another swing sounds good. The Empire vs. Von Carsteins might be played out but perhaps they could suffer a more subtle threat?>grimgor goes off to cause problems for someone in the backround for a while, silver pinnicle maybe? lamia getting its head cut off (even if only for a while) could lets lost of shit happenSeems like a lot of Vampire stuff going down. Age of a Thousand Thrones in play? Dunno if I like Neferata getting killed but she could disappear for a while and leave her little wizards to do their own thing. If the Lahmians are fighting each other to decide on a new Queen Bee that could create a lot of disruption in the Empire (and other places).>Dwarfs>gainsPick one. They should probably lose something if they're marching to the aid of men.
I don't think Gelt would directly rule. He has more important things to do. He would probably set up some kind of meritocracy, only the best and brightest ruling, so he could set up something like a bureaucrat system. We can have the Storm of Chaos event kill off a lot of the nobility, allowing him to do this in the first place. The nobles won't be entirely phased out. In fact, some might see themselves climb more than ever. But there is an increasing number of lands governed by commoners of worth. And this suits Gelt fine because the Empire is now under competent hands and he doesn't have to actually manage shit. I'd also see a lot more focus given towards killing Skaven and Beastmen in both Empires.Also yeah Beastmen they're kind of a ridiculously boring faction what to do about them?
>>57781243mostly working off SoC so, mannfred would not just fuck off quietly to brood in sylvania with his worlds largest undead army. sort of hard to avoid that being an in your face threatalso most of the other players for subtle threat would be licking wounds (chaos, beastmen) or in busy (skaven).. orcs are never subtle. unless you want to have forest goblin sharsnik appear and start his own empire or somethingvampires always seems to me to be the waiting in the wings world ending evil. strong as chaos warriors, chaos resistant (being uniquely spiritually corrupted already) fearless tireless armies that similarly can't easily be corrupted. honestly if mannfred had made a legit attempt at vlading it up after the war using his army to being stability to the empire he probably could have won alot of mortal support.>pick onei know, i love dwarfs their 5th ed army book is what open up the world of fantasy to me, Its just human sentimentallity they work hard do right and never win, not really its frustrating as fuck. (still better then AoS though)
>>57781279Well, if we bother keeping them as all, I advocate bringing them back into the Chaos Umbrella.Let's face it; it was when Beasts of Chaos was replaced by Beastmen that the race started to suck. They lost a LOT of strength with that change, and went from being Chaos's children to mlore like its bastards; they were, in fluff, the unfavored, ignored, and discarded.If we're going to have Beastmen at all, go back to old-school fluff and let them have just as much standing in Chaos' eyes as the human followers. If even their own gods think they're not worth bothering with, why should we?
>>57781465>honestly if mannfred had made a legit attempt at vlading it up after the war using his army to being stability to the empire he probably could have won alot of mortal support.This could play into talk about an Empire split between a Meritocratic "Reformed Empire" and an Orthodox "Sigmarite Empire". 21st Century people are naturally going to be sympathetic towards the Reformers so maybe they should be morally compromised (and punished for knocking the Witch Hunters off their stride) with Mannfred in charge of Sylvania and creeping his influence through the Reformed Empire? It might be a bit much for Mannfred to be directly ruling Sylvania but I'm sure he has mortal patsies who could do the job.
>>57778614We had this in 6th edition until the storm of chaos was retconned.
>>57781961Yep. So how do you think things would/should have looked around 2600?
>>57778614Survivors of the Storm (taking place right after the Storm of Chaos) had a lot of neat shit going for it.
>>57782651I can't find anything by that title. Are you sure you don't mean Darkness Rising?
>>57778614It would be the Age of Reckoning and take over where storm of chaos. I dabbled in it for a WFRP campaign and this is what i've come up with.>with Valten's sacrifice and ascendance, the cult of Sigmar spreads like never before, at the expense of the cult of ulric>archaon has lost most of the favour of the gods for failing them, and is in a pickle because no everchosen before him survived his own failure. Now he struggles to regain his power whike the gods are already looking for a new everchosen>Bretonnia is leading a fuckhuge errantry war into the chaos wastes themselves after putting most of Norsca to the torch>The dwarves put their shit together and are regaining ground over the orcs, even because grimgor has fucked of eastwards.In time they reconquered mount squighorn and destroyed Iron Rock. Most of the Undgrin between Karaz-A-Karak, karak azul and karak eight peaks. Black crag is under a lenghty siege where the dwarves are pushing the orcs from below, with Kazador making a beeline for Gorfang.One of the few things i kept from the end times is Belegar ironhammer dying to queek. Belegar was strong but was a terrible leader, and the line of kings of karak eight peaks dies with him. This of course doesn't sit well with Thorgrim who gets so. Fucking. Pissed.So pissed in fact that he gives Ungrim a call and going against any settled tradition tells him that if he manages to retake karak eight peaks and murder everything inside his slayer oath will be fulfilled even if he survivesAlso Before being wounded Valten smashed the crown of dominion with ghal maraz, breaking it. So now bel'akor is free i guess.Also ghal maraz was originally Grungni's hammer and some dwarfs REALLY want it back
Why didn't GW put some unobtanium to some remote place where all the factions could invade each other in perpetuity, within lore. We know that the not!Europe can't ever change so make a place where ebb and flow can occur?
>>57783535Border Princes are kinda-sort that but not really.
>>57783474Contd.>Killing belegar queek establishes himself as lord of karak eight peakes. Clan mors grows and spreads even more, destroying and absorbing minor skaven clans in the region. The council of 13 does not like this one bit and dispatches someone to take care of him. And what agent could be more competent and trustworthy enough for this than Thanquol himself?>with grimgor gone and gorfang busy, the biggest warboss remaining is Morglum Necksnapper. Driven away from death pass, the warboss takes his Waaaaagh! Further south, into the desolation of Nagash. There, he rampages basically unopposed until he sets eyes on the black pyramid itself. And he being a black orc realizes that since the thing is black must belong to him
Stop trying to make it really epic with world changing events all the time. We don't need the empire to break up and reform once every 5 years.We don't need multiple world ending threats in a single lifetime.Make small changes instead. Something like Storm of Chaos but smaller would have been really cool.Maybe an Empire town gets assaulted by Greenskins. You have a Greenskins vs Humans series of tournaments and the result stays in lore.Then next month you do something elseThat way the setting changes and players feel like they matter
>>57783702I think the reason why people are suggesting lots of changes is that the OP proposes skipping forward 78 years. So if it sounds like a whole bundle of huge changes are being proposed, remember that there are three or four generations to digest them.
>>57779407>WHY WOULD THE WOOD ELVES LISTEN TO HIMBecause Lileath said so? She was the last Elven God.
>>57779784>So, yes, Skaven were originally part of the Chaos forces.You are saying this like the Skaven were removed from Chaos which isn't true.
>>57778739Isn't that the plot of that old WFRP 1 ed. campaign?
>>57779330Looks like a fascinating game, where the only thing you can do is just move your units forward and charge
>>57783183>I can't find anything by that title.Don't you have White Dwarf issues from back then?What a casual.
>>57783790Maybe? I don't know what happened in that campaign. I may be too young.
>>57783850It was called The Enemy Within, but I only have one book and never played through the whole thing as I avoided premades.But the plot is that Karl Franz dies and shit starts falling apart in various parts of the Empire. Can't remember the ending though.
Nagash is back, and he's feeling sassy
>>57783896The ending is chaos wins everyone dies
>>57778650Sigmar hereit literally doesn't, it took the Empire like 1500 years to invent clothes and another 1000 to invent gunpowderwhich they could have bought at any time from the dwarfs
Araby, Kislev, Ind, Chatay, some Chaos tribes up north, Nippon and maybe even the sea elves could have releases.
>>57783896Todbringer becomes Emperor, which was annoying because fluff at the time was all about Franz's mutant nephew, while conveniently forgetting his living son.The fact that they kept switching names wasn't helpful.
>>57778739>>57778771>>57778880The problem with giving Karl Franz an underage son is that he seems to have an adult son, Luitpold (born in the 2490s).
>>57784296Doesn't matter because emperors are elected
>>57784448Ye, but the Electoral Counts have been electing the same dynasty for at least one hundred years.
>>57784421Luitpold even managed to survive the revenge of Drachenfel, so he'd be pretty wise to evil wizards with mind-control power.
>>57784470Wouldn't that be a very good reason for a civil war?Imagine if someone tried to establish a monarchy in the U.S or restablish it in a democratic republic.
>>57784470We know that the Electors almost went with Boris Todbringer instead of Karl Franz because the latter was considered young and inexperienced.
>>57779177I would add Stirland to the mix as they are pretty traditionalist and maybe Ostermark.Others would be a part of the Reformed Empire, maybe with Middenland being a bit unstable as their opinion on mages is..not really the best one
>>57779177The church of sigmar not anti-magic. Only witch hunters are and those are just a fraction of the whole
>>57784800Maybe Church of Sigmar had a schism then? Kinda like the one between Protestants and Catholics
>>57784845It kinda alreadu happened with the whole Volkmar vs Esmer thing
>>57784878That didn't get completely resolved, did it? Like, in Storm of Chaos, Volkmar dies, Esmer takes over, Volkmar is resurrected and takes over.
What do you think about about the TW:WH 'timeline'?>Tzeentch betrays xis brothers and plots against the everchosen for (???(just as planned)) reason.>empowers the empire(franz), vampire counts(mannfred), dwarves(thorgrim) and greenskins(grimgor) as well as those following them>Franz takes full control of the empire away from the other elector counts>white dwarf joins up with Thorgrim full time and they unite the dwarves>Grimgor unites the greenskins>Manny and resurrected Vlad/Isabella take over the easten portion of the empire>Archon comes down only to find four overwhelmingly powerful millitary forces>meanwhile Wulfric is uniting the tribes of Norsca as a seperate, rival faction to the warriors of chaos and tries to invade the old world on their on their own>meanwhile across the sea a skaven plot has destabilized the great vortex>Dark elves, lizardmen and skaven see this as their chance to take control of it>high elves trying to keep control of it>all four sides mobilize everything they have >Enter a state of all out war with each other as they try to capture and keep control of key sites that would allow them to control the vortex>meanwhile the destabilization also set off the black pyramid stirring the tomb kings up>they begin to mobilize and fight over control of the black pyramid>sending out forces to take back the books of Nagash
>>57778918>The dwarfs back the “son of Franz” because they must.>Elves back the rebels because they get what’s going on.>ITT: War Of the Beardless
>>57785093Was there ever a side dawi were backing during Age of Three Emperors?
>>57778614Possibly no different than it did before as I recall it being since I got into it at 12I'd have liked them to have explored more of the East and South but oh well, hopefully we get more in TWW
>>57784934Yes but esmer is still the theogonist in exile ib marienburgh and many of the less pious priests back him because they can't stand Volkmar's stick in their ass.Also Todbribger is probably esmer's buddy since they had valten killed together
>>57785206Todbringer is old as fuck, he won't matter for that long.For Esmer and Volkmar, presumably the Reformers piss off Volkmar (or his successor) and invite Esmer (or his successor) in to be the Real And Authentic Grand Theogonist.
>>57785228Wouldn't Reformers inviting Esmer be against their ideals? I mean Esmer is pretty much anti-magic if I remember correctly
>>57785270In politics, there's always a good reason and a real reason. The Reformers might invite Esmer in because they don't want to be the Unholy Empire. He could accept because being an isolated exile in Marienburg isn't a patch on being Grand Theogonist of most of the Empire. Gelt could then present Esmer's anti-magic credentials as a sign of how the Reformed Empire is Definitely Not A Magocracy.
>>57784940What do you want Anon? What would you keep and use for that? This is your sandbox, sell us on what you want.
>>57785712Sounds like a pretty awesome schemey tactic. I would say Gelt uses an intermediary to invite him. Hell Gelt could even be off whatever ruling body there is while actually pulling the strings with some kind of mage council.
>>57779106>Probably not ReiklandWhy not? Sigmarite make a coup in the capital, wizards have to relocate.
>>57779488You know what? I may actually want to see Bretonnia and Tilea going into some sort of renaissance.Like Bretonnia having a not-French revolution and becoming a big player.
>>57785794Altdorf is magically altered and many of the Colleges of Magic are concealed. It'd be like staging a coup knowing that invisible snipers are all around you.>>57785841Tilea apparently started their Renaissance around 2000, but they only did the art and culture side of it.
>>57783811>What are objectives and sudden death
>>57785735I want warhammer fantasy back
>>57785851>Altdorf is magically altered and many of the Colleges of Magic are concealed. It'd be like staging a coup knowing that invisible snipers are all around you.That sounds cool though... mage hunters on the streets trying to find secret entrances while mages (mostly students and old teachers) are trapped in their hidden sanctuaries.But yeah, I guess that wouldn't last, but it could be a nice short event. Like a few days of chaos in the capital as the most fanatically anti-magic faction try something and fail, but that allows events to unfold in the rest of the empire as the capital is paralysed for some time.
>>57784940This is basically the plot of warhammer total war
>>57785926Don't we all?>>57786093I think that's why it was introduced as the timeline from TW:WH.
Some of the changes in end times weren't bad, the most egregious issue was the head banging stupidity and out of character actions of some.
>>57785712Huh, that sounds very schemey suiting the ruler Gelt, I like it
>>57786392Then add in those changes and leave out the other shit.
>>57784258I thought that Sea Elves were just high elf sailors/merchants
>>57784940Anything is better than end times, but my specific thots:-Dislike the unification business. Less is not always more. Orcs should not be united. Franz should not become Louis the Sun king but German. Dorfs I am okay with unifying somewhat.-Like Wulfric uniting Norscans as a kind of rival bloc to Archy the neverchosen.-Like the vortex. However Lizzy and helf should be one bloc, Dark elf one bloc, Skaven another bloc. -Like black pyramid stirring up. Bullshit of CA not to have Nagash as some emergent faction when you try and take the pyramid. perfect opportunity for some pseudo-end-times business in this timeline by having Nagash (albeit a fraction of his power) re-emerge.Also as much as I like Araby and Tilea/Estalia the idea that came to mind when I meant to post earlier was the Skaven wiping out one of them and asserting themselves as a proper, naked power - no longer "lolol rats do not exist" but a proper imperial sort.
>>57779290>skaven have actually discovered a. Bombs numerous times>every Time results in the scientists death after self experimentation
End Times wasn't that bad of an idea, it's just the authors let their Skaven, Dark Elf (even though Mal's my favorite WHFB character the wank they got was insane) and Chaos favoritism get in front of everything at the sake of the plot. You can unironically see the wank begin with book 4
>>57778739So...Anduin and Onyxia?
>>57790084Please read the thread multiple people have brought this up, and the response is always "Okay then what do you want to keep and not keep". Think of this from the perspective of being on a writing team for GW and you're trying to mesh other people's ideas and your own.
>>57778614Lizardmen don't go out like little bitches, for one. Instant improvement.
>>57778614Chaos is defeated and some centuries pass.Then Chaos comes back while Karl the IV is fighinting other global empires like Albion, Bretonnia and Kislev during World Waaargh I with airplanes and and shit.
>>57789603Unification in Norsca is a good development, especially if other areas are splintering.
>>57783535Isn’t that just warp stone?
>>57785841>Bretonnia having a not-French revolutionThis might be cool but it would be leaping over a lot of French history. They could be creeping into not-French Wars of Religion, with some kind of syncretic "Trifold Lady" Cult that treats the Lady of the Lake, Shallya, and Myrmidia as three faces of the one Goddess gaining traction through the south. The established lore already has Myrmidian worship coming north and identification of the Lady with Shallya is an endemic heresy in Bretonnia, so fusing those trends feels natural. To avoid hot-shotting the plot, this could be brewing while the immediate action is war with the reawakened Red Duke and his Blood Dragon minions. The Trifold Cultists could gain some ground by leading the fight against the Vampires in the South while the traditional aristocracy base themselves in the North.
>>57785841>>57796077We need to figure out the effect, if any, of "the revelation" that the Lady is an Elf Goddess, if that even happens. IIRC that fucked up Brettonia pretty hard, though they were the only nation still fighting when the world got obliterated
I do like the idea of the Gilded Empire.
>>57783967That was the biggest problem desu.Even if the allliance did beat back the tide of chaos, Mr. bones ride ride was still docked at the station.
>>57796365Is she? I know that the Fay Enchantress is an Elf, but revealing that to Brets would get responses mainly ranging from, "What's an Elf?" to "OK."
>>57796077What about Abhorash? As one of Gilles’s comrades and protector of Bretonnia, as well as Red Duke’s sire he could become quite a figure in that scenario
>>57797848I feel like Abhorash should really be tied up in the Thousand Thrones plot, even though the Blood Dragons claim not to care about it. That might bring him into doings in Bretonnia, but a figure like that shouldn't be an add-on to a regional development.That said, I haven't really gone over the lore for Thousand Thrones in detail. My initial feeling is that a story development for Vampires doesn't need to move too quickly and events might not be bubbling over by the 2600 mark in the OP. (Just waking up a whole lot of Vampires and have them engage in a lot of doings would probably be OK.)
>>57789798The Horned Rat continues to encourage atomic research for this very reason.
Can we keep the thing about Grimgor and Skarsnik being the jesuses of Gork n Mork? Wurzzag best prophet.Also Grom is confirmed alive in Lustria.
>>57790113OOO, OOO KEEPING TO THAT.Lets have his son only be King because the zoo dragon says so
>>57778918Maybe it should.Maybe the Empire should get split. While Marienberg sits back and LAUGHS. Also Kislev get stronger.
>>57800532We tracked down Karl's adult son, Luitpold, so it's not really practical to leap into a regency after Karl. That doesn't trash the Reformed Empire notion, but it'd be Gelt & Luitpold, superpals, trying to knock the nobility into line in the second quarter of the 2500s. And if people like the idea of the Empire being ruled by a child, then there's plenty of time to sort that out in time for the 2600 mark.
Skaven's invent space travel.
>>57800627This goes almost as well as their atomic research.
>>57800650Well actually, it was a huge success
>>57800585>Kislev get stronger.It was suggested upthread >>57779631 that Kislev's aristocracy should turn themselves into vampires because the place isn't bad enough already.
>>57800700>Inb4 they're good guy Vampires like the Strigois were.Id like that, blue-team bear vampires
>>57800714>In Empire, Vampire turn into bat>In Tzarist Kislev, Vampire turn into bear>Is not really that funny to think about and even less funny to live around
>>57800513>Can we keep the thing about Grimgor and Skarsnik being the jesuses of Gork n Mork? Wurzzag best prophet.The problem with that is it leads towards unifying all the greenskins, and I'm pretty sure that's only OK if it's a short-lived thing.Unless it worked out that just like Gork and Mork the two couldn't co-exist and quickly fell to fighting one another.
>>57800513can we maybe instead get a black Orc that acts like a Black Orc?>>57800843Yeah it would be great to have two Empires for the duration of the big campaign that have unified a good portion of greenskins and that independently act in the itnerest of greenskindom but once a little bit of a lull is hit, the two tear each other apart, leaving two big main factions comprised of the core of the Gork/MOrk-pires with the majority of the other clans splitting once their Boss has been shown to be unable to take out his rival
>>57779631Far would prefer it if a.) it's not just 10000 survivors hooly shit that's tiny and b.) it was only the Tsar family that goes vampire and they hide it even from the nobility
>>57783811The objective of the game is buying figures.
>>57800881>the big campaignIt kinda got talked about earlier in the thread that the Dwarfs should suffer for having marched to the aid of the Empire during the Storm of Chaos. Now, nobody likes this in a strict sense because the Warhammer Dwarfs are total bros, but the Old World seems to run by the logic that no good deed goes unpunished.And I'm thinking that means the Greenskins over-run either Karak Kadrin or Karaz-a-Karak. (As a side benefit, that would make the map a bit more dynamic.) I'm not sure if Everpeak falling without the Dwarf race basically dying out is plausible, so maybe Grimgor and Skarsnik converge on Slayer Keep and bury the defenders in greenskin dead?
>>57800890>it was only the Tsar family that goes vampire Does Katarin have living relatives? I'm fairly sure that she doesn't have children and she probably doesn't have brothers, but beyond that I have no idea. I feel like Slavic Ice Vampires is too fun for there to be only two or three of them.>and they hide it even from the nobilityThat might not be practical in the long run. I guess they could claim that they just prolonged their lives through Ice Magic but that excuse wears thin after a while.
>>57778614It's a simple enough fix, as the great heroes and villains have their showdown, and Archaon's sorcerors release the world destroying sphere, have it not work or the heroes (through dumb luck more than anything) manage to destroy it. Say, Grimgor as encarnate of beasts strikes it with his axe, the wild magic flowing through him (maybe even killing him) manages to stop its expansion. Then the others would go "well if we can slow it down, maybe we can reverse it with enough power," and start draining their encarnate powers in order to stop it.Could have opened up a new path to a magic less fantasy world, where it was all spent up stopping the actual destruction of the world. Or maybe its just severly reduced. in either case, you could then have a classic beat down, and punch that chaos cocksucker for destroying the setting and replacing it with SIGMARRRUUHH SAVIOUR OF THE NINETEEN THOUSAND REALMS
>>57784258>Araby getting coveredThat is a whole thread's worth of discussion in itself but just off the top of my head.>The Nature of Arabyan ReligionApparently they're monotheists and some people leap to Islam or Zoroastrianism but really we have no idea. Really their religion should be as much like either as the Empire's is like Germanic Paganism.>Explaining the CrusadesIdeally the Arabyan perspective would be that the Crusades were a bit of a pain but they were way busier with the Tomb Kings or something. (This doesn't need to be Objective Truth but it helps make the Arabyans their own thing if they're not just defined as guys who invaded Estalia then got so pwned that they were counter-invaded.) Also they should have a national myth, true or otherwise, that's a bit more uplifting than "we were united by an evil wizard who consorted with Skaven".>How exactly their politics work (or don't work)Allegedly Araby is a collection of city-states that style themselves as Kingdoms or Caliphates. What exactly Caliphate means in the context of Arabyan religion isn't at all clear but it doesn't seem to mean the same thing that it does in Islam because the Caliphs are (formally) subordinate to the Sultan of All Araby. If I had to guess, an Arabyan Caliphate is a vassal of the SoAA, while a Kingdom has its own Sultan who recognises the SoAA as his better but not his master.
>>57800806I mean, the people might be less bothered if they thought that their nobles were turning into bears.
>>57800806In Bretonnia they turn into _______??
>>57801894Drunks. Everyone in Bretonnia is drunk eight days a week. You might say to that, "Anon, there are only seven days a week!" and to that I say, "Yes but it looks like eight when you're as pissed as a Bret."
>>57801188>I'm fairly sure that she doesn't have children and she probably doesn't have brothersShe has a brother mentioned in WHRP 1e
>>57801918I was gonna say horses, but drunk is fine too. I mean Alberic is half way their.
>>57803222In the main 1e book? I don't even see Katarin in the Kislev section, let alone a brother.
>>57778614Storm of Chaos or the player-made Endhammer setting.Storm of Chaos is better, but Endhammer tries to cleave as closely as possible to the events of End Times with an aversion of catastrophe at the end. Admirable for the attempt.If you don't remember Endhammer, it was a crowd-sourced edit of "End Times" in the Fantasy General threads back a year or two ago. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Endhammer
>>57804096Neither gets as far as 2600 though.
>>57804096>>57778614The best idea was that the final battle is averted as a result of typical, Skaven bullshittery. Thanquol thinks Chaos/Archaon/Verminlord is getting way too much credit for everything and he is going to get squeezed out. So he huffs a shit ton of warpstone and obliterates a third of the Everchosen's host, giving the good guys a fighting chance.Some of the more interesting ideas I remember:Beastmen taking over Ind and forming a caste-based, chaos worshiping, primitive "society" in the ruins of what was Ind, after some Khorne Champion killed the "thousand gods of Ind" in End Times.Bretonnians uplifting some yeomanry and merchants to fill the ranks of the dead knights. These impetuous, newly made knights lead Grail Wars to recover Estalia and Tilea from the Skaven.A confederation of Tileans (mostly Dogs of War) fighting a running retreat into the south of peninsula and winning a final battle with the Skaven, but losing most of the country. Led by the Alcatani Fellowship.The Empire back in an age of the Three Emperors as multiple dudes claim they should be Emperor, with Valten, Karl Franz, and Boris Todbringer dead.>>57804142Well, Endhammer kinda fell into infighting before that could be worked out. The eventual hope was to keep going forward and come up with more interesting Mordheim/Skirmish settings.
>>57783811WHFB and AoS vet here.I have probably done less of that in AoS than I ever did in WHFB.
>>57804190>Endhammer kinda fell into infighting before that could be worked out. The eventual hope was to keep going forward and come up with more interesting Mordheim/Skirmish settings.OP here. I've seen a lot of /tg/ projects go that way. It seems like getting a consensus on "what things should look like" at a snapshot is relatively easy (see Disney Villains Victorious), but working out narratives leads to fighting. Hence, this thread is trying to feel out 2600 rather than grind folks down with "and then what happened?"As for the Endhammer ideas... killing Ind & Tilea really sucks for anyone who had hopes for those regions. (And I can imagine that it caused friction in the project.) Age of Three Emperors is cool but it's weird to go back to it in a project about moving the plot forward.
>>57804378Tilea isn't killed. Just a few cities lost and refugees. Then the Bretonnians come in to "reclaim" the cities... without giving them back to the Tileans.Based on the French/Austrian domination of Northern Italy in the late Renaissance/Age of Sail. Bretonnian barons and hedge knights making themselves princes of Tilean cities, much to the consternation of southern Tilea and Sartosa (which would be the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in this case).As for killing Ind -- it's less about killing Ind (which we knew little about) than making Ind a thing. Beastman Ind is interesting, fleshed out, and "cool." It's led by a Raj who is a Tiger Beastman, with a caste of panther, leopard, lion, and tiger beastmen as khsatriya at the top. The remaining humans are variably slaves or food and equivalent to Untouchables.On Age of Three Emperors -- I know it could be seen as going back, but I prefer to see it as the cycle of history, from which one leader can rise from the ashes and save the Empire. The Holy Roman Empire, after all, had frequent periods of civil war and division.The three candidates are Liutpold II, Karl Franz's son, and Prince of Reikland (also de facto ruler in Averland after Leitdorf's death), Balthasar Gelt (advocating a magocracy to put an end to the infighting of idiot elector counts), and Heinrich Todbringer, Boris's Bastard.There was also an idea I liked of a heathen Norscan abandoning Chaos after Archaon's defeat and carving out an earldom in the ashes of Ostland, calling his Norscan warriors and surviving Ostlanders to his banner and killing the chaos monsters. Think if Beowulf founded Normandy.
>>57804534>Ind is my furry fetish.epic
>>57804704Wait where is it a fetish?The Beastmen of the Empire are already violent and rapetastic. Is it just because some of them are cats?
>>57804763no, you literally turn the beastmen into civilised and ordered empire builders who eat and fuck their underlings. Its why Endhammer got shitposted into death.
>>57804190I think that a Border Prince should swoop in and take Tilea. Gashnag.
>>57804534OK. So far the discussion has tended to assume something more like the Storm of Chaos so I'm not sure that you're going to get people going on Endhammer again. (Certainly, I'm not seeing the appeal.) If you want to get that project back on its feet, maybe try the direct approach and just start a thread about Endhammer itself?
>>57804819In what way are they empire builders? They're literally living in the ruins of Ind, a perverse, degenerate, and lesser mimic of man... which is what the Beastmen have always been. It's just this time they're doing it in profane temples they've stolen from the Indish rather than in the forests.How fucking dumb are you?
>>57804914>they are living in stolen temples and have castes and run the entire kingdoms>You are dense if you disagree.Endhammer was a fucking trash setting. Worse than anything GW ever made.
>>57804914>>57804939Please don't do this.
>>57805087>Fucking kikes destroying my settingYes, which is why we have all those Endhammer threads all the time on /tg/Oh wait, your ideas were so trash that they spiralled the entire project into the dirt.
>>57805152It's not "fucking kikes destroyed the setting" it's "you argue like the stereotype of a jew"."Oh, shit, I lost the argument. Quick. Deflect. Play dumb. Pretend I didn't lose the next day."
>>57805199>Der juden are taking away mein furry fetish, mein gott, its like another battle of berlin.
Let's just stop talking about Endhammer and importing ideas from another fan thing, please. If we reach the same point as there, fine, but there is no reason to literally transport whole ideas. Endhammer also works off the idea of using the End Times lens at all. We are just advancing the plot forward, more like Storm of Chaos. Focus on that, please.
>>57800585>>57800587So.... picking up on things about the Empire, I feel like 2600 might look like this:The Empire is at war with itself. Last year, the Electors of Norland and Ostland were accused of treason by the court of Emperor Luitpold III. Rather than submit, Norland and Ostland make common cause with Marienburg, perhaps hoping to emulate the merchant city's decades' long resistance to Imperial armies.>wait, what?Right, well, a lot has happened since the Storm of Chaos. Karl Franz died. His son was elected Emperor Luitpold II and, under the guidance of Balthasar Gelt, ushered in a Gilded Age of reconstruction. Ostland and Norland, though ravaged by Chaos, were prime targets for Luitpold II's enlightened reforms and became models of meritocratic and even semi-democratic rule. After Luitpold II's passing, his son Karl Franz II started to feel the winds of reaction to reform and tried to steer a middle course. The venerable Gelt was retired from the Councils of State and the model provinces were left as "an example". Karl Franz II did negotiate the annexation of the Tilean city states into the Empire, so his rule did not pass in vain - but it passed on to his son, Karl Franz III. KF3 had grown up witnessing the destabilisation of the Empire by Marienburg and swiftly launched a punitive war. This swift effort turned into a series of long, drawn-out sieges. A brief cease-fire broke out after KF3 died of dysentery, but KF4's short reign ended in disaster. The young Emperor died, seemingly of poisoning, and as soon as he had been elected the new Emperor Luitpold III pointed the finger at the Electors of the model provinces, seeking to make a new example of them.
>>57806057Now this skips over a LOT and there's space for wars with Vampires, marching to the aid of the Dwarfs, and messing around in Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilea, and maybe even Araby. It's just intended to be a scaffold, drawing on some of the ideas that have come up in discussion and spreading them out through time.(I might have skipped over a little too much because I was sorta thinking that the model provinces get skittish about the war with Marienburg during KF3's reign and withhold men claiming that they need to keep more of their soldiers on the Empire's other frontiers.)
>>57806057>>57806256Define semi-democratic. What does that mean to you?Where does Slyvania fit into this?How does this new empire respond to the Skaven invading Tilea?What's its policy on Dwarves?Does Gelt take on a successor for himself as he gets older? An adopted son perhaps? Or does he have multiple apprentices he places in a free for all for his attention?
>>57806493>Define semi-democratic. What does that mean to you?I was thinking that the model provinces have some sort of power-sharing between the Imperial bureaucracy and the locals. Details left out on purpose, but they could have assemblies of notables who vote provincial taxes, elected magistrates, or possibly even elected Electors like the Mootland does.>TileaThis hasn't been gone over in depth, but I think anon is interested in the Empire intervening to check the advance of the rat-men, leading to some or all of Tilea being annexed.The other questions are good ones that could do with some discussion - but I've already put forward a fair bit and I don't want my ideas to loom too large in this thread.
>>57783786for some reason skaven players seem to think this isn't true... beyond me
>>57804226FACTman, i loved playing WHFB but people pick the strangest things to complain about AoS about, considering half of them are indictments of WHFB. Love the game, hate the "fans" apparently, go figure
>>57790113>Hey kid, wanna /ss/?
>>57778771Balthazar Gelt could even create some magic-powered spirit-golem-warriors to fight for his new vision of the Empire. You know the ones.
>>57779698> If you're doing some kind of Kislev bloodline, it should probably carry forward the ice witch thing.Nah, they just need to let it go.
>>57780184>while Eshin hide in shadowsNaw, it'd be much more fun if something happens to Nippon and Eshin falls as well.>eshin falls>the one clan that doesn't just fail its way into success goes down the drain>is also the clan that upholds the Conspiracy of Silence>skaven are recognized and combated en masse by the forces of the empire at least
I didn't find a fantasy warhammer thread other than this so I have to vent. I ran out of 40k books so I decided fuck it, I'll go for some fantasy, and since omnibusing trilogies into soft covers is a thing now, I read Nagash books and found em quite alright. I just finished reading 800 pages of aggressively mediocre von Carstein literature by some literal nobody and all I have to ask is what the FUCKI checked lexicanum after finishing the books and it contradicts almost every relevant plot from not only the Carstein shitbook but from the Nagash ones as wellWHO THE FUCK AUTHORIZED THIS NONSENSE
>>57810409Fantasy Lexicanum is lacking, yeah