>>53690952
>How do I put nazis in my setting without making them seem like nazis.

>>53690992

You don't beat around the bush anon. That's what I was going to day at first but then I felt dumb.

>>53690952
You give a reasonable ingame explanation why things came to be this way. And, maybe a way to change something?

Answer to the second question seems rather clear. Understand what is the context of their fates having crossed, his goals and resources, etc.

>hyper nationalistic
the country first, every dealing with other country should always be prefaced with "what do we get out of this" to a far higher degree than any other country, instill notions of duty in all their citizens that the country was here first and they owe it everything
they dont go looking for a fight with others, and they dont deliberately step on other peoples toes, but when they need to defend their interests they do so with vigor

>militaristic
tying in with the above "you owe your country" they place high value on serving your country, especially in the form of military service, they need to give things for their country even their life

>pragmatic
avoids pointless savagery or needless waste of life

they would welcome the PCs if they were helping them, but they would be infinitely suspicious of them

>>53691019
Look at the other authoritarian nations of that period. For instance Nationalist Spain would be a useful inspiration.

>>53690952
>How would you go about building a hyper nationalistic, militaristic and pragmatic empire

By reading the histories of the great colonial powers, England Germany France and Spain

And then not doing a lot of the shit they did to brown people

>>53690952
>>53690992

Make Grabblers a thing in tour setting and justify everything they do as a Holy crusade against Grabblerkind.

https://youtu.be/Q4PC8Luqiws

>>53691072
But anon, the gold and land.

>>53690952

Simple, make the PCs part of the Empire. Have crowds cheer them. Everyone's full of vitality. This is manifest destiny.

The Emperor? He's badass. He's a pillar of Biblical strength. He's a guy who took the throne with his boot firmly planted on the throat of anyone who got in his way, and he recognizes talent. He's not even worried about people challenging him, because he's entirely confident he can personally push their shit in.

Your country's going to conquer the world, and it's going to be amazing.

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>>53690992
They can't be nazis if they're pragmatic.

>muh let's spend all our resources on dumb dream projects and useless wunderwaffens!

>>53691019
Good, because it was dumb.

I've been working on that first part, it started out that they needed to go to war for water because of a drought. They won . Then after that the empire flourished as a super power because of their absurdly rich sources of ore for weapons of war. That led to a sort of Rome situation where now they're just riding the snowball effect of military victory and expanding like despotic cancer.

Now it's where the players come in and it's basically a WW1 scenario because two of the conquered countries are trying to wage war for Independence and they're backed by a Confederacy of enlightened or otherwise Democratic countries..

It just feels like I fucked up somewhere and it's boring or something. Maybe it needs more reasoning.


As for the emperor thing I guess what I meant was what should his tone be like? I have the trouble of kind of lumping all ruler figures in the same boring 'indifferent to you peasants' kind of thing. How do you make a ruler interesting, engaging and memorable without getting too chummy with the rabble?

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>>53690952
>How would you go about building a hyper nationalistic, militaristic and pragmatic empire for your setting without stepping on too many cliches and evil memes?

Come on kid. Get your shit together.

The American government is THE ultimate douchebag country that's sort of good but also evil all at the same time depending on context and viewpoint.

>>53691299

He's a dude who is secure in his strength. He's clearly read up on all the PCs, and he knows their achievements and where best to employ them. He's also generous when it comes to rewards, because they do good work for him.

Also, he's a guy who has a good grasp of the grand scale of things. Like, he knows how shit is going to go down, and he's usually right. When he isn't, he accounts for eventualities.

Not to mention, he's physically vigorous. That's very important. A guy who is fat and slovenly doesn't inspire confidence.

>>53691280
A nazi is a nazi whether or not they are pragmatic. Hyper-nationalistic and militaristic is the definition of nazi

>>53691341
>A guy who is fat and slovenly doesn't inspire confidence.
Churchill was a fat drunk. And he inspired confidence.

Anything is possible if you don't dumpstat CHA.

>>53691359
Middle-American militias are nazis?

>>53691380
Yes.

>>53691359
That is literally false, you pop history child.

>>53691376

It's fantasy we're talking about, man. In fantasy, fat and slovenly = incompetent. It's why all the good people are sexy as hell.

Take a look at the Swedish "empire".

Religion and determinism is the way to go. Emperor being a young lad dressed as his soldiers.

>>53691411
In fantasy an obese man is actually really damn strong and leads his men personally.
Rest in peace Forlong.

>>53691403
Debates over the definition of nazi aside anyone hyper-nationalistic and militaristic is evil and are always going to seem like nazis.

>>53691380
>>53691403
Well, hypernationalism and militarism are the basic pillars of fascism.

Nazism is just fascism with more fairytales bolted onto it to make it more palatable for the dumb retarded masses.

>>53691359
Wrong

What would a government like this do with the people it conquered after winning a war?

>>53691596
It's a pragmatic empire right?

So they'd work like the Romans, or the Americans.

>yeah we conquered you
>now learn english/latin
>and go eat some hamburgers/pizza
>and let's go watch some movies/arena fights~!

>>53691596
Press them into service

>>53691596
Probably start out treating them as second-class citizens, then as they assimilated, give them more rights until they are fully assimilated and fully equal.

>>53691418

Religion was the other thing I was struggling with. I was just going off the pathfinder pantheon but didn't find anything too compelling other than Myketa. I've home brewed so many gods in my day and I have so much other stuff to prepare for the setting that I just can't be bothered atm. But I'll definitely look into that.

>>53691614
Murrica as a nation is far from being pragmatic.
Their corporations are who makes sure people integrate into the culture. Because conformist citizen is happy customer.

>>53691480
I'll give you militaristic, in the sense of jingoism. But don't give me that bollocks of supporting my nation and people first as evil. Why must a man support the needs of the foreigner over his neighbor and kin?

>>53690952
>Nationalism is inherently evil
It's sad that this is what the world is like these days.

>>53692208
Well it sure is a good thing op said nothing of the sort.

>>53690952
>hyper nationalistic
>pragmatic

huh?

>>53692208
All isms are evil.
If religion is the opium of the masses then ism is the cheap crack.

>>53690952
Make your rulers as machiavellian as you can get away with, only on a national level instead of a personal one.

>>53690952

A pragmatic empire is not hyper nationalistic, because excluding your conquered people from being useful to your empire is not pragmatic.

Make the object of devotion the state rather than a specific people or national heritage. Do the roman thing of citizenship through service; a conquered person who is useful to the state is more highly regarded than a native-born who is useless. A strong sense of "private-to-marshal" egalitarianism would also help.

Once this empire had a taste of expanding, they want to expand more and more, because they honestly believe their way of doing things is the correct way and the conquered people would be grateful to them. It works well for a but, but when some of the conquered are not grateful, they don't understand the resistance and become more and more brutal to "keep the peace".

>>53690952
Turians.

>>53690952
>hyper nationalistic
Just make them... well, nationalistic. The empire's citizens are incredibly proud of being citizens and having the privilege of dictating their own lives through the (semi-/faux-)republican system, as opposed to the savages around them who bow to kings and queens.

>militaristic
Conscription is seen as not only a duty, but the privilege of the citizen. To fight and die for the glory of the empire is not only a great honor, it is the greatest honor a free citizen can atain. For bonus points, make conscription a requirement for even the lowliest of political offices.

>pragmatic
Simply do whatever is neccessary. Pragmatic means "will lie, cheat and blackmail to achieve goals", not "will burn babies for fun".

Long story short: Franco-Roman Empire led by Napolius Bonaugustus.

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>>53690952
Brazilian integralism was a fascist movement whose slogan was "union of all races and all peoples". Integralists should not discriminate, anyone could be one. That was more of an ideal than a reality. Anyway, the PCs can find a place no matter their race and class. And the integralist nation wouldn't actually comit atrocities just because someone has a funny acent.

Plus, its leader advocated a "revolution of the self". It was meant to lead toweards a greater relation with the integralist family, but sounds kinda enlightening, no? So even an evil PC may be included as long as his actions help the integralism. I believe recently conquered would be considered an "aprentice" underclass, undergoing this revolution of the self. The short cut is military service: if they are ready to fight and die for the nation, they are true citizens.

Unrelated to integralism, such a nation may be a necessary evil. Stalinism was at least as monstruous as nazism, but one needed the first to deal with the latter.

>>53690952
Have the leadership follow the philosophy of "antagonizing and ruling the the citizens with an iron thumb will only spark rebellion, so we'll be nice to our subjects and allies". You can keep them as very agressive and militaristic by basically giving the empire a "with us or without us" attitude, where it will demolish your city-state if you oppose it, but if you do follow their demands, it's very friendly and welcoming.

>>53691411
Just describe him as a "bear of a man", and have him very confident and charismatic. There.

>>53692631
Explain you confusion.

>>53691359
rome

>>53693568
Rome was in no way nationalistic.

>>53691019
Well you're first gonna want to decouple the nationalism from racism, that makes you automatically makes you evil.
You can be any race and worship whoever you want (unless you want a national religion), as long as you do your military service and support the nation.
>>53691259 this guy has the right idea, make citizens proud and the state worthy of adoration. Stand in the Nation's way and we'll kick your dick off.

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>>53691072
>the great colonial powers
>Germany

>>53693613
Yes they where, they literally exported their culture to all their subjects.

>>53690952
Rome.
Duh.

>>53693810
Well they were a great power, and they did have colonies.
They just didn't have great colonies.

>>53693854
That is not what nationalism mean. Rome predated the (distinctly modern) phenomenon of nationalism by more than a millennium.

>>53693917
You named Germany as an example of what to do to brown people. What Germany did was beg France and Britain to allow it to have the spare brown people they themselves didn't want. And then lost them within a single lifetime of begging for them.

Seriously, out of all the (potential) superpowers to have ever existed, Germany is the most disappointing one of them all by a league and a mile.

>>53693970
I wasn't that person. I was just pointing out that their statement was semantically correct.

>>53691359

> what is Sparta, the post
> what is Nepal, the post
> what is Rome, the post
> what is WW2 era USA, Britain, Russia, and Japan, the post

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>>53691614
>Romans
>pizza

>>53694026
I wouldn't call Britain and especially America militaristic. Remember: the only reason why Germany got as far as it did was because of America's insistence on NOT joining the war. They were perfectly content to watch mass slaughters and genocide happen as long as no Americans got hurt. Even Russia is kind of a stretch.

>>53694064
This really depends on the point in time you're talking about.
Once they had joined the war they were absolutely militaristic, because a nation cannot participate in total war without becoming militaristic.

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>>53691359
That's literally not even true, you idiot.

>>53694133
I guess that also makes Finland militaristic for defending their own soil from foreign invasion? Or that Poland was militaristic? Silly definitions lead to silly outcomes. Most people use the term 'militaristic' to refer to nations, individuals or ideologies who specifically pursue warfare. Japan fits the bill because they were actively out to militarily carve themselves an Asian empire, not just defend themselves from a foreign threat.

>>53694064
> They were perfectly content to watch mass slaughters and genocide happen as long as no Americans got hurt
Are you talking about the one in Russia or the one in China, because death camps are a meme.

>>53694241
Good call. A country that gears into total-war mode is completely different from a militaristic country.

In fact, you can have a militaristic country with hardly an army.

Because militarism has nothing to do with the military. It's about the worship of the military of a country and/or the worship of warfare.

>>53694467
/n/ - News was a huge mistake. Containment has completely failed.

>>53694133

> Once they had joined the war they were absolutely militaristic

That's not true either, because right after WW2, the US demobilized everyone and was seeking a return to 1930's level of defense spending.

In 1947, the defense budget was 10% of 1945 levels, and only slightly higher than 1940. Most of that was just upkeep into the stuff that hasn't been mothballed in time.

The turning point was Korea, when the US realized that it would need a large standing army as one of 2 global hegemons. Modern US militarism is born after Desert Storm and shaped by the War on Terror.

>>53694514
>In fact, you can have a militaristic country with hardly an army.
I want to call that retarded, but then I remembered one of the countries involved in WW2 was a kingdom without a king led by an admiral without a navy. That country was landlocked Hungary, by the way.

>>53690952
>How would you go about building a hyper nationalistic, militaristic and pragmatic empire for your setting without stepping on too many cliches and evil memes?
Make them the good guys. They can be militaristic without being expansionist - they just hire mercenaries by the division, do peacekeeping missions, or fight back endless waves of "bad guys" (whether those are orcs, trollocs or something else). Or maybe the world is facing a dire threat which cannot be fought be heroes alone - only a unified humanity could withstand the threat.

>>53694133
That...makes no sense. Total war is the opposite of militarism. It's what happens when the military/warrior classes lose their special privileges and codes. Instead, the whole population gets involved, usually with civilian leadership.

Total war is arguably a social condition that only exists after the masses gain the power of political legitimacy.

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>>53692964
>turians
>pragmatic

Sure Desolas,

>>53692667
What about pacifism, utilitarianism or skepticism? I don't think you know how words work.

>>53694790
>skepticism
lol
>pacifism
rofl
>utilitarianism
Pascal's mugging says it's time to genocide the bourgeosie. You're only buttressing his point, anon. Maybe try pragmatism, consequentialism, or empiricsm next time. (is there an -ism for virtue ethics?)

>>53694756
You humans are all racist!

>>53694892
That's specieist!

>>53692667
>All isms are evil.
Yeah, we could be colonizing space right now if nobody believed in anything. Except the belief that no ideology or belief is better than another is also an ism!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indifferentism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism
Like many popular one-liners, your cookie cutter morality easily collapses when put under even the slightest of pressure. As do all other forms of relativism, which is an -ism that actually makes your entire argument self-defeating.

>>53694847
>Pascal's mugging
>citing a thought experiment made up on a internet forum based on a complete misunderstanding of Pascal's wager
I'm not even a utilist but please, just stop.

>>53690952
Take standard historical european medieval empire, remove loyalty to the king, insert fanatic loyalty to the country, depending on the time when you want to play remove knights add what ever was standard for the time. You might also want to get rid of the cast system and replace it with something a bit diferent. Bam, done

>>53691486
>Nazism is just fascism with more fairytales bolted onto it to make it more palatable for the dumb retarded masses
No, nazism is just fascism with the race card added

>>53690952
>militarist
>nationalist

Remove feudalism and hype up a national identity.

>>53694639
My post was meant to be merely theoretical, philosophical, but it's nice knowing that it actually happened. Thanks mate.

>>53695000
That's what I said. Fairytales for the dumb retarded masses.

>>53695039
well they did have a lot of actuall fairytale bullshit, ever heard of the die glocke project? If hitelr was alive today he would brouse /x/

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>>53695088
Ya think he'd cook up some good skinwalker stories with Will Shatner?

>>53690952
>>53690992
>Nazis
>Not the USA

>>53695088
Hitler had the glock? Shoulda got the deagle.

>>53691359
I thought being National Socialist was the definition of a Nazi.

>>53692208
The problem is that people don't realise that Hitler and his Nazis were SOCIALISTS.

>>53695232
The problem is that Americans don't realise that Hitler had all the socialists within the nazi party murdered in 1934 during the Night of the Long Knives.

After that, the nazis were only socialist in name.

>>53695232
National Socialism had about as much to do with Socialism as North Korea has to do with Democracy or China has to do with Republicanism.

>>53691390
Not today Antifa. Not today.

>>53695118
i think he'd be a very butthurt poster that would get angry if someone sugested he did not know shit

>>53695232
>Hitler
>socialist
I love it how americans dont know shit about political ideas. NatSoc was a mush up of extreme conservatism, marksim-leninism with outdated biological ideas and a bit of capitalism sprinkled on top. State owned dose not mean socialist. Hitlers rule did not abolish the market, neither did he want to do is, in fact entrepreneurs were fairly high in the system.The only reason why natsoc was called natsoc was because workers liked socialism and hitler was in need of their support

>>53696129
And a heavy dose of socialism. Controlled economy plus the government taking complete control over education, enacting directives "for the public good," and making the people dependent on them is socialism if I ever saw it.

>>53696309
The word you're looking for is totalitarianism, not socialism.

>>53696129
GET OUT OF HERE WITH YOUR FACTS AND LOGIC! You're gonna ruin the circlejerk!

>>53696309
>taking complete control over education
That's not socialism, that was standard for most european country at that point, while indeed this was mainly brought about thanks to the socialist, even very libertarian people in europe will tell you that education should be public because the market is not that good at giving people shit that cant be "consumed" by a single user and needs to be in one or other form shared
>enacting directives "for the public good,"
That's just dictator speak for "i want to do it and ill do it", anyone authoritarian from the right to the left dose this shit.
As i said, Hitler took many ideas from the bolsheviks, but most european socialist were on the libertarian side as far as personal freedom gose

>>53690952
Make the players a part of that Empire. Make the empire prosperous, safe, and progressive, but have the emblem of the Empire EVERYWHERE. Throw in references to the Emperor or the Empire in speech. "Emperor damn you!" Take parts of Roman ideology/politics, where military service is seen as a requirement for political office, and can elevate a poor commoner to a higher station. Reference disasters/crises in the past which took a heavy toll on their neighbours, but which careful pragmatism by the Empire allowed them to largely avoid.

Rome and the Imperium (40k) are good to draw from for this, I'd say.

>>53694944
Can't be self defeating when it ends in ism.

>>53690952
>hyper nationalistic, militaristic and pragmatic empire for your setting
Simple, the US-
>without stepping on too many cliches and evil memes?
- nevermind

>>53690952
>hyper nationalistic, militaristic and pragmatic empire
The swiss but as an empire ?

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>>53691486
>>53695282
>National Socialism had about as much to do with Socialism as North Korea has to do with Democracy or China has to do with Republicanism.

Whenever I, as someone who grew up in a soviet satellite state, see someone say as stupid shit as this I feel like punching a baby.

It also tells me that the person who wrote this is one or more of the following things:
- From a 1st world country
- affluent middle class
- probably underage or in his edgy 18-year-old-socialism-actually-works-guys-fedora-phase
- socially inept
- probably a virgin

You see, cynically socialism/marxism/communism it is all the same shit but in a different glittery package and as prone to fascism and nationalism as legit national socialism. Obviously its not something you can ever admit to yourself because that would mean that you have something in common with those icky ''far righters'' .
Thank god your gender studies professors however omitted some of the facts about socialism/communism while preaching neo-marxism: The are as fond of totalitarianism and dictatorships as national socialism. You both rely on a FEINDBILD to spread your message across and rile up the masses about some perceived injustice, after all its easy to whip up people once you tell them they have someone else to blame for their misfortune.You both rely on the dehumanization of your FEINDBILD.

In socialism/communism you have the KLASSENKAMPF, the evil bourgeoisie stealing your money and the things you made from you the worker. Everything would be better if the fat-cats and factory-owners would be just robbed of their stuff and given to everyone else.

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>>53697184
cont

In national socialism you have the evil outsiders/foreigners/immigrants aka the jews/the niggers/the Mexicans/the asians the FILL IN YOUR EVIL RACE OF THE WEEK HERE-thing that are stealing yer jerbs and living a better life than you do! Everything would be better if the foreigners and immigrants would be just kicked out and robbed of their stuff and given to everyone else.

And make no mistake, socialism/communism/marxism is also as prone to racism as natsoc when it suits their cause and they need someone to whip up the unwashed masses or distract from existing issues. In my country this was in 1968 after it became increasingly obvious that communism didnt work and people were starting realize how miserable things are so the politburo decided that they needed to bring out a new enemy out of the closet so they can give the people someone else to blame, in our case the jews, again.

The only difference between nazis and commies is that neo-marxism adapted. During the cold war and with the collapse of the Sowjet Union more and more crimes of the various communist regimes were coming to light so marxism took a good look at itself, saw that everyone associated it wit stalinism and with millions of people dying just like with natsoc and instead reinvented itself under the guise of INTERSECTIONALITY. KLASSENKAMPF was renamed to SOCIAL JUSTICE. The evil ''privileged white male'' is a thinly-veiled Biff the Understudy Stand-in for ''the bourgeoisie''.

>>53690952

Have them be the claimant successors to a recent (past couple hundred years) fallen empire of which their territory was a small part.

Give them rhetoric about restoring civilization and rekindling the empire.

>>53690952
Literally Rome, but through the eyes of a completely enfranchised Eques. Maybe tone down on the amount of crazy sex going on as well.

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>>53697184
What the fuck does sexual experience have to do with being sociopolitically informed?

>>53697451
Nothing, but if that's what you choose to take away from the post them I think you missed his message. Not saying his message is necessarily correct, just that you need better reading comprehension skills and to fucking pay attention.

>>53690952
>hyper nationalistic, militaristic and pragmatic
> without stepping on too many cliches and evil memes?
Evil?
You mean good, right?

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>>53697451
What does being a failure in society have to do with latching onto something that will make you look MORAL and VIRTUOUS with minimum effort?

I mean sure, you are still a failure but at least you are better than those evil nazis and closeminded conservashits because you complained on twitter about how racist this brand of cereals is.

>>53697451
>>53697616
To elaborate on what that guy is saying in a non-meme manner, leftism is always the ideology of the weak.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10061462/Stronger-men-are-more-right-wing.html

The right, in its most extreme form, seeks to provide a state in which only fundamental human rights are guaranteed (most notably right to life and right to property) -or in the case of libertarianism abolish the state altogether. In such a state the strong* thrive and the weak have to wait for wealth to trickle down (assuming a hypothetical situation without cartels or corruption). This does not appeal to the weak (women, nu-males and lowly educated immigrants with no stake in the future of their host countries), who instead demand that the system exploits the strong and serves the weak. This is why the left attracts "losers" and ivory tower academics obsessed with an arbitrary idea of equality alike [though I'd call the latter a class of losers as well, considering their ideas wouldn't survive outside of the safe space called modern academia]. This is why in Europe and America alike we see the same pattern arise: in an America where only white men would be allowed to vote, Obama would not have become president. In an America where only women are allowed to vote, Rodham would be president. In an Austria where only men would be allowed to vote, there'd be a "far right" anti-immigration president. This is why female suffrage is the beginning of the end for any modern democracy: it slowly but surely sends the country into a left-wing nosedive where what sounds good trumps what works.

*strong in the broadest sense of the word. A pointdexter who's an utterly brilliant inventor and salesman counts as 'strong' in this case.

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>>53697535
I mean, I didn't take anything away from the post because I'm just a passerby who saw it on the front page and noticed that virginity was being correlated with a misunderstanding of politics. I commented on it because it seemed suspect and, as an uninvolved third party, makes me immediately inclined to think that whatever point he's making is probably a load of shit.

>>53690952
You mean like the Turians in Mass Effect?

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>>53697796
But humans have always succeeded via cooperation, not individual strength. The greatest armies were those that worked together and supported each other, recognising that no force is stronger than it's weakest member, not the armies made up of rugged 6ft individualists each seeking personal glory.

Leftists are about raising up the least for society's benefit, not widening the lead the best have on everyone else.

>>53697184
>>53697257
Cheeki Breeki Anon dropping the fire here.

>>53690952
Prussia, and to some extend the German Empire after it.
Back in the day expanding your empire wasn't about racism, it was just what empires DID. It was seen as a logical extension of politics and serving your nation's interests.

>>53698018
>But humans have always succeeded via cooperation, not individual strength
Funny that you post a picture of Romans, who in their republican phase only limited citizenship to those who served in the army, valued strength in its broadest sense (mos maiorum) and severy limited the influence of corrupting influences in their civilization (women and peregrines).

You didn't have limp-wristed leftists in the Roman Republic because the system itself nipped them in the bud.
>M-Muh Caesar tho, muh populares tho
And guess what happened to the Republic after that? They were the limpwristed lefties of their time, willing to sell their liberty for a loaf of bread.

>>53691359
No, that's the definition of Fascism, to a certain degree. It requires a single leader to be Fascist though in most cases, and if you're loyal to the country "in general" rather then to a single person it's just nationalism.

>>53698086
>You didn't have limp-wristed leftists in the Roman Republic

Cicero?

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>>53690952
It's not a fantasy setting, but you could take some tips from the Starship Troopers movie.

>>53692208
Supporting your nation is not bad. It's really only logical, honestly.
Supporting your nation even when it's being idiotic and making harmful choices for short-sighted reasons IS bad, and not only is it bad it's fucking stupid.

Saying this as someone who served, BTW.

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>>53698086
>This is what objectivists actually believe

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>>53697184
>>53697257
At no point was I defending Socialism, certainly not Stalinist Communism.
I'm just saying Nazis weren't Socialist, despite the name.
And no, I am not a college student, I never attended, couldn't afford it. I suppose that also means I'm not affluent. Though I do live in the first world, can't really communicate with people and am a virgin.

But I am not a Socialist. I'm a liberal who is sick to fucking death of being compared to Pol Pot and Stalin because some asshole in the 50's found out he could gain political capital by playing on people's paranoia and accusing everyone he didn't like of being a commie.

Sounds familiar doesn't it. I guess Joey was secretly a socialist the entire time.

>>53698205
I'm sorry, I'm not American so I don't believe in trash. I'm a liberal in the not-American sense.

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Nilfgaard

>>53697184
>>53697257
Did you get triggered because some said that National Socialism didn't have much of socialism in it and then just started showing similarities of totalitarian ideologies?

All that because you thought it was in the effort of making socialism not be associated with evil?
>>53697796
>ivory tower academics
It's just a buzzword that serves the purpose of discrediting intelligent people.
>though I'd call the latter a class of losers as well, considering their ideas wouldn't survive outside of the safe space called modern academia
Funnily enough world cannot function without academia.

>>53698185
Support your country, not your government.

>>53698266
Nilfgaard isn't as nationalist as you think.
The books make it pretty clear that it's really just the Holy Roman Empire using the coloring scheme of the Knights Teuton, with the Northern Kingdoms standing in for Lithuania and it's surrounding territories, which remained pagan and outside the influence of the church for much longer then the rest of Europe.
Emhyr is a strongly centrist ruler, but large portions of his empire don't like how he handles shit and in the actual canon of the books his expansionism eventually kills his rule of the country due to how many people were getting tired of his wars to capture a backwater region of the world, which in private he only really did because he was trying to fulfill part of Ilithinne's Propchecy.

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>>53698266
All hail Empress Cirilla Fiona Elen Riannon, Lioness of Nilfgaard!

>>53698286
>discrediting intelligent people
Really? Where do you think tumblrinas and feminist "journalists" get their ideas from? I don't doubt the ability of these academics, I doubt their ideas and the environment in which they are spawned. You only need to read Habermas if you want to quickly master the ability to supress your gag reflex.

>Funnily enough world cannot function without academia.
Academia in general? Yeah, you're right. Modern academia (especially the social "sciences")? We can miss them like we can miss a tooth ache. This is why for example Japan did well by severely cutting funding for the humanities (much to the chagrin of Western "academia").

If Western academics want to bolster what little credibility they have left, they need to let their silly ideologies go and focus on actually doing science again (real science, not "do videogames cause rape? Yeah they do!" science).

>>53698300
I served my country in the armed services, so I'll even support my government most days.
That doesn't mean I have to like the bullshit they always try to pull, like the GOP saying they support our military and then showing it by cutting our benefits over and over again.

>>53698376
They're convinced they're superior to everyone who isn't part of the Empire, that's pretty standard nationalism.

>>53698400
I'm not sure what the hell Emhyr was thinking trying to put Ciri in power.
Her ENTIRE LIFE is her constantly running from holding any kind of responsibilities whatsoever.

>>53691920
That's what makes it so hilariously pragmatic.
Instead of declaring that people speak the language through law, it has citizens make their money organizations get people to speak the language so it can focus on other things.
It's so efficient t doesn't have to officially delegate

>>53698428
This is true, but they basically only become military expansionists because of Emhyr.
You know Morvran Vorhis, that really chill Nilgaardian who you can horse-race? He canonically becomes Emperor and relaxes a lot of if Emhyr's more tyrannical laws which he enacted largely to try and keep himself in power.
Emhyr's not a hereditary Emperor remember; like the Kaiser's he's technically an elected official, and a lot of his struggles to find Ciri are about trying to secure an heir so he can turn his line into actual kings, which much of his empire is firmly opposed to.

I'm a pretty lazy writer, so I'd just copy one of the societies that did that succssfully in real life

>>53698405
>Really? Where do you think tumblrinas and feminist "journalists" get their ideas from? I don't doubt the ability of these academics, I doubt their ideas and the environment in which they are spawned. You only need to read Habermas if you want to quickly master the ability to supress your gag reflex.
Fortunately I am deep enough in Academia to realize that a big part of professors have had enough contact with lower class and the like. In fact it always surprises me how many of those intellectuals come from lower to middle class and on the outside are incredibly normal looking people. That's a really far away from being Ivory Tower intellectuals, funnily enough I have the image of Trump's family in Trump Tower posing for a picture in my mind when I hear the words, not some college professor that walks through halls full of often piss poor students.
>Academia in general? Yeah, you're right. Modern academia (especially the social "sciences")? We can miss them like we can miss a tooth ache. This is why for example Japan did well by severely cutting funding for the humanities (much to the chagrin of Western "academia").
Modern academia contains both humanities and STEM. STEM part eats up many of humanities ideologies all the same, while laughing at their inability to perform basic math and saying that we should divert their funding to STEM.

>>53693772
This is sorta interesting because i just finished a game where there was a !not!Rome that had great power and infrastructure, with neat idealogies ,but were built on the pantheon of the traveller/road gods and demanded not only tolls/tarrif/taxes to use the roads but also sacrifices and religious actions. There is a neat way to run the state religion as a whaterever-religion-you-want-plus-ours aspect that doesnt restrict but does require penance that makes it nationalistic but not evil.

The cleric got really bothered that he was making more prayers to the road god theb to his own god because everytime you set off in the morning and everytime you stop for more than a wizz break you had to thank/beg the god for travel mercies. The empire had religious inquisitors that did all sorts of stuff but mostly would make life hell for you if you were caught desecrating the roads.

To be fair i had no problem with it since the roads themselves were made to glow at night, and drive away all sorts of low level beasts and monsters, as well as doubling foot speed and give bonuses against tiring. Any water that flowed across the road was gentle enough to ford, and any that ran underneath was potable. Really fucking neat, but if you didnt do the prayer stuff weird shit started happening.

The cleric stopped making offerings and suddenly he would always trip on a loose cobble stone, or step on a horse turd from the last caravaan that passed without seeing it. Nothing life threatening but small and annoying.

>>53698568
Ivory tower has very little to do with social status, and more with the unworldlyness of their ideology. Because left wing academia is full of ideas that are proven wrong when applied to reality, only to lead to the conclusion that it's not the idea but the reality that is wrong. This is why there's still such a push for "diversity" [when statisticians, biologists and economists can tell you this doesn't work], "gender equality" [when biologists can tell you this dosn't work] et cetera.

>STEM part eats up many of humanities ideologies all the same, while laughing at their inability to perform basic math and saying that we should divert their funding to STEM.
The nice thing about STEM is that your personal bullshit beliefs don't matter. A mathematician can believe that he can never find his socks when getting dressed in the morning because Satan steals them, but that doesn't influence the quality of his work at all. That's because mathematics is cold, hard and objective. What we see in the humanities (once actually respectable by the way, I'm not one of those idiots who thinks STEM is the only thing worth studying) is a move away from reality and towards ideology. Hence my accusation of an ivory tower climate.

Hell, in a way the state of academia may be BECAUSE it's full of intelligent people. People who, paradoxically enough, are better at developing and defending unproductive ideas. And that's pretty much what the modern humanities in the West have become: an exercise in making the dumb sound smart.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-mishaps/201408/smart-people-dumb-decisions

>>53698086

> who in their republican phase only limited citizenship to those who served in the army

Lmao no, citizenship is hereditary, non-citizens may be inducted into citizenship by service with the Auxiliaries. What you are confusing with is the Cursus Honorum, which stated that elected office may only be held after serving as a military tribune.

TFW when you realize Caesar was the leftist

> Bypassing the established patrician oligarchy by appealing directly to the masses
> diluting the power base of existing senators by enfranchising indigenous nobility from around the empire.

Augustus continued this by
> buying popular support by proscribing his political enemies, seizing their assets, and redistributing them to the masses.

>>53698126
>Cicero, the guy who wrote a speech defending literal Right Wing Death Squads
>left wing

Please get history from books, not HBO TV series

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>>53698222
>I guess Joey was secretly a socialist the entire time.

Actually that is not completely inaccurate since he was in the same mindset of seeing himself as the moral and virtuous person doing the right thing to people he dehumanized as being irredeemably evil.

>Did you get triggered because some said that National Socialism didn't have much of socialism in it
No I got ''triggered'' by the fact that you pretended there was distinction between them when there isn't.

>then just started showing similarities of totalitarian ideologies
Well yes, good work, you repeated what I just told you. Similarities is an understatement tho. Its the same ideology with the same mechanics just with a different brand-name. Like Coke and Pepsi.

>All that because you thought it was in the effort of making socialism not be associated with evil?

Oh no it was in the effort of clearing up the implication that socialism/communism/Marxism are somehow less racist ideologies than natsoc. Which SocJus currently proves with their whole shtick about trying to shame and dehumanize white males and the whole ''I cant be racis bcuz racis is race and powah''-Spiel.

Socialism/communism/Marxism only brings out the worst in people and leaves corruption and misery in its wake.

>>53698741
>Ivory tower has very little to do with social status, and more with the unworldlyness of their ideology
Wrong.
> Because left wing academia is full of ideas that are proven wrong when applied to reality
What's proven wrong? Ideologies are ideologies, they generally cannot be proven wrong. Even economics can hardly be proven wrong in today's world due to little ability for macro scale economic experiments and having horrifying amounts of variables in the system.
Biologist doesn't tell you gender equality doesn't work, whatever working would mean. Probably something related to a bunch of achieving the goals of some other retarded ideology like some kind screaming muh offspring or muh nation.
>That's because mathematics is cold, hard and objective.
Mathematics are entirely manmade and nested in fantasy of axioms instead of reality. It's pretty much the definition of an Ivory Tower.


What you're basically complaining about is that you can't say Math or Physics doesn't work, so you prey on anything softer and less developed in academia and complain how the people there don't think the way you want them to think.

>>53698800
>What you are confusing with is the Cursus Honorum
No, what I'm referring to is Ius Militiae, or the """""right""""" of citizens to serve. The Republic did practice compulsory conscription (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_army#Roman_army_of_the_mid-Republic_.28c._300_.E2.80.93_107_BC.29), and the switch from Empire to Republic more or less correlated with the switch from conscript army to professional army. Rousseau specifically points to this when discussing the merits of a conscript army over a professional army.

>>53698945
>Wrong.
Who, me?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ivory%20tower
I can't see any reference to social status here. The ivory tower isn't filled with nobles who are unconcerned about the grumblings of the plebs, but with thinkers who couldn't care less about reality.

>Ideologies are ideologies, they generally cannot be proven wrong.
Take that to the Soviet Union, my friend. The guys who rejected the evolution because it was too "bourgeois" and instead went with some full retard theory in which crops could be "taught" certain traits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Millions died because the Soviet Union was more concerned with Marx' infallible word than the actual reality of agriculture.

>Biologist doesn't tell you gender equality doesn't work, whatever working would mean
It would mean equality between men and women, which is scientifically impossible on both a physical and a mental/neurological level. This is why equality of opportunity leads to a massive gap in outcomes, which concerns the left and forces them to push for equality of outcome (which effectively means punishing men for being men, but it's not sexist because everyone ends up being equal). It's effectively the Lysenkoism of gender.

>Mathematics are entirely manmade and nested in fantasy
You do realize that mathematics is an untestable a-priori assumption we must make before we can do science, right? And that assuming the fiction of mathematics means you also assume the entire scientific corpus is fiction? You'd have a ball with Feyerabend, who likened science to voodoo and witchcraft.

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>>53698945
>What's proven wrong? Ideologies are ideologies, they generally cannot be proven wrong.
>Even economics can hardly be proven wrong in today's world due to little ability for macro scale economic experiments and having

This has to be hands down the most retarded post after-.. wait a minute.
Is that thinly veiled SOCIALISM HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED-post?

>Biologist doesn't tell you gender equality doesn't work, whatever working would mean.
Yes, yes it does. The whole Nature vs nurture thing was proven wrong repeatedly. Environment and nurturing does not change the thing in question. Just like Gender Studies as a whole is based on the faulty premise of closet paedophile who liked to make two little boys dress up for him and force them to fondle each other.

>>53698945
We're not playing Mage The Ascension here Anon, Math doesn't only exist because a wizard believed in it really hard.

>>53698405
Japan is a good standard for education? Talk to someone who has taught in Japan. They test well, but can't comprehend how to think for themselves. Even from an Ayn Rand position they are unable to act in rational self interest. Their relationship with the work place is master & slave as Nietzsche would put it. This isn't an education system that forges strong individuals. It promoted weakness moreso than Nietzsche said Christian humility did.(Not saying I agree with him, just that following your ubermensch like logic means that you shouldn't look to Japan as an example of a strong society because they dropped social social "sciences").

Honestly I can't stand Tumblirinas or the neolibs that inspired them. They turned the left wing into an ideology for the weak. They beg for change based upon "moral" grounds. Instead you can be a leftist and work towards a society that promotes individual strength.

>>53691418
Yeah, "Imperial" Sweden definitely has the traits requested. Basically a pure warmachine of a country.

Little to no cultural achievements to speak of, hardline religious state bordering on theocratic, punching way above its weight in winning wars. Everyone's an alcoholic except the King.

>>53699159
>They test well, but can't comprehend how to think for themselves.
Citation needed, as well as a definition of what "think for themselves" means [because I'll be damned if that's what Western politically correct education teaches its students]. If we look at something that can actually be qualified (like PISA test scores) Japan far outshines the grand majority of Western nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment#Results). By the standards of the OECD (based in Paris -a (for now) Western city-, and an organization where western countries are overrepresented) Japan's education is top notch. As opposed to America, which ranks somewhere between "mediocre" and "oh shit are you even trying?".

>They turned the left wing into an ideology for the weak.
The left is inherrently the ideology of the weak. It is for those who ask for a lighter load rather than a stronger back. I don't believe the strong should simply trample over the weak for being weak or ignore their struggles, but I also do not believe that it is the duty of the state to force redivision of wealth.

>>53699239
>something that can actually be qualified
*quantified. Fuck, it's late here.

>>53699083
>Who, me?
>an impractical often escapist attitude marked by aloof lack of concern with or interest in practical matters or urgent problems
Yes you, tell me how those ideologies don't deal with practical matters.
>Take that to the Soviet Union, my friend.
And how does it prove something wrong when there is no definition of wrong.
>It would mean equality between men and women, which is scientifically impossible on both a physical and a mental/neurological level.
Equality between any two biological beings is impossible, even clones are different.
> This is why equality of opportunity leads to a massive gap in outcomes, which concerns the left and forces them to push for equality of outcome (which effectively means punishing men for being men, but it's not sexist because everyone ends up being equal). It's effectively the Lysenkoism of gender.
Gender equality is a doctrine, not just the fact that there are differences between men and women but rather is focused on equal treatment and believes that women if treated equally can have equally good outcomes in society.
>You do realize that mathematics is an untestable a-priori assumption we must make before we can do science, right? And that assuming the fiction of mathematics means you also assume the entire scientific corpus is fiction? You'd have a ball with Feyerabend, who likened science to voodoo and witchcraft.
Mathematics is fiction. Any mathematician can tell you that. We're merely applying it to describe our would be reality. We use imaginary currents to deal with electricity, nobody will tell you that imaginary currents exist in reality, but nobody will tell you that it's wrong to mix fantasy with reality.
>>53699111
>Yes, yes it does. The whole Nature vs nurture thing was proven wrong repeatedly. Environment and nurturing does not change the thing in question.
There is no definite proof anywhere.
>>53699130
Mathematics don't physically exist.

>>53690952
> hyper nationalistic, militaristic and pragmatic

1) Pride in the nation, with a lot of "my country right or wrong" views in the populace. These people have an identity that they feel is worth having, and a purpose that is greater than the individual. In some way, Nationalism can supplant, or at least act like, religion -- a connection to a higher power, either temporal or supernatural. A Theocracy could blend the two, but those tend to tick quite a few Evil cliches. And while they might be similar on the stage of international politics, there is a distinct difference in perception between the group that says "Fuck those guys" and the group that says "I feel something when I devote myself to us". Both are nationalistic, but one is generally positive

>Militaristic
This one is easy: Surround them with enemies with whom they have legitimate grievance and who are themselves middle grey or darker. Furthermore, beyond simply justifying maintaining a warlike posture, let the audience/PCs feel that the people have a connection to their warlike culture: They revere heroes and respect service; at least at home their veterans are very well regarded and honorable

>Pragmatic
Pragmitism rubs a lot of people the wrong way because it can be taken too far and conflicts with a lot of archaic systems of "honor" So how to depict it without hitting the evil cliches? Focus on playing perfectly within the rules rather than being assholes who ignore the rules to win. They will loot as they go. They will burn bridges. And their commanders will sacrifice their own to achieve military victory -- but they take what they need, they do what they *have* to do, and when there is a high risk or even suicidal mission they ask for those brave enough to step forward rather than sending whatever green idiots they think are expendable today without informing or properly arming them. A group can be very practical while still having their own rules.

>>53699239
> Citation Needed
Fair criticism. For me it's their low voter turnout that makes me question their understanding of politics. And I would point to Finland, Denmark, Ireland, and Germany as better counterpoints to Japan's education system, not by any means America. And I'll be damned as well if American education teaches critical thinking, if they did we wouldn't have wannabe Frankfurters on Tumblr.

The left inherintly weak though? I don't want the government to make people work less, I want a government that teaches people to have a strong back and give them fair compensation when they do. Fair compensation just being a secure source of food and shelter.

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In my DM's setting, the most fervently military nation became such due to being surrounded by enemies in the centuries before the game began. While those warring crowns eventually fell to each other or under their own weight, This nation rallied and fought off any threat that came close to it- And many that weren't close at all. This proactive but highly aggressive method led to them angering more of those aforementioned enemies- but their timing was good, and metal plentiful. There was little the collapsing and unifying neighbours could do but placate the military superpower (at this point magic as players know it was in its infancy, so it was less of a valid option to use against them, as well).
After the dust settles you end up with a distressingly nationalistic country where military strength is a cultural touchstone. Every man, woman, And child is given entry level instruction in their military training even if they do not serve (many do serve minimum terms). In effect, its entire population is a cult of personality militia. There is not a single war in modern history that they have not been involved in, And they are finally facing friction from a colony that they treat as second-class citizens.
This gets into the pragmatic and evil bits in our party's present day, where a mysterious font of planar energy-efficient a weapon- is said to be out there. Surrounded by enemies and an uprising in not-asia, this nation sees no other option but to take control of anything they can find regarding this weapon for both their pride and safety. The sheer destruction caused by the hunt for the weapon worldwide has led them to particularly extreme measures.
It is not led by an emperor, but a governing council, at least one of which we discovered was a Rakshasa moving these extreme events along for an unknown purpose.

>>53701863

Effectively a weapon. Damn autocorrect.

>>53691113
How does credit card interest rate translate to medieval?

>>53690952
Just make america on steroids on the military boner

>>53690952
You take any nation and add those elements without making them unreasonable cunts?

>>53690952
Sounds like Spartans.

>>53699359
Most mathematics are a direct translation of reality into thought. Don't be obtuse.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Blindsight

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>>53708580
Sorry. Meant to post in another thread.
>>53701828

Prussia, but with centralized American wartime economy planning rather than having everything be at the the military's whim.

>>53691359
>Hyper-nationalistic and militaristic is the definition of nazi

The Romans weren't Nazis, but they were hyper-nationalistic and militaristic. Nazis are not the baseline for authoritative societal views, retard - those existed well before Austria did.

A person who wholeheartedly and enthusiastically believes in their nation and its military might isn't a nazi unless they also believe the whole "Aryan = best, everyone else can die" racism shtick.

>>53691614
You forgot "grow our wheat for us, barbarians".

>>53692872
It could be territorial-nationalism.
Are you outside of the empire? Fuck you.
Are you part of the empire? We couldn't care less about who you are or where you were from just do your duty and you are family.

>>53690992
Way to ruin the fucking thread you self-absorbed airhead.