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>>51730871
>relatively light fan rewrite

>>51731095
Anything short of The Nightmare to Come and maybe Imperium Asunder is considered lighthearted compared to regular 40k.

>>51730871
HAHA

Saved a copy of the fuckin' pages.

Even if 1d4chan goes down again, the stuff we have up till now is saved.

>>51730871
http://pastebin.com/xSNtKrHW

Did a brief expansion of the Colchis entry to flesh it out into a full-fledged codex entry. Hopefully this will be acceptable.

Additionally, I checked Lexicanum, and it turns out Colchis is a semi-arid desert planet (like a weird cross between Space Australia/Space Mesopotamia, and Space Egypt. Or Space Levant or something). Put a mention of that in the entry.

Used Bel-Shammon as the Craftworld that landed on Colchis. Bel-Shammon is supposed to be one of the Craftworlds that was destroyed prior to M41, so the implication is in vanilla it got buttblasted by the Fall. Interestingly there are almost no canon Craftworlds in the Segmentum Pacificus (where Colchis is). Like at all.

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>Shadow Wars
Apparently my name for the clandestine conflict during the Imperial Civil War might be fanon. So far, the Warlord Era Tarren religious wars resurface under Vandire. Church of Light and Church of the Savior Emperor had been secretly fighting each other when Vandire became self declared God-Emperor. This Shadow War came to light with open warfare when the Imperial Civil War forced the religious to take sides. Then there was the insane Eldar separatist trying to have all Eldar worlds be independent.

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>>51732293
>Segmentum Pacificus
GW seems to hate talking about that place for some reason. There is barely any canon lore on that place.

>High-tech feudal world
There is already a name for them in the Mechanicus Codex, Knight worlds.

>>51732616
Maybe it's because it's the "peaceful" part of the galaxy. Chaos mostly comes from the North out of the Eye of Terror and 'nids mostly come from the

>Knight Worlds
Really? I was under the impression that Knight Worlds were just world where Imperial Knight houses happened to be. Was trying to describe Colchis without using the words "Holy Roman Empire". Don't think Colchis would have any Knight Houses, since the bump in technology came from Eldar as opposed to Dark Age technology or the AdMech. Any suggestions for a less ambiguous description?

Arg. Same idiot as >>51732683. Posted before I checked what I was saying.

>>51732616
Maybe it's because it's the "peaceful" part of the galaxy. Chaos mostly comes from the North out of the Eye of Terror and 'nids mostly come from the south (Leviathan) and east (Behemoth and Kraken). You have Orks, but then everywhere has Orks. No clue where Ullanor originally was.

So by comparison to the Segmentum Obscurus, Segmentum Solar, or Segmentum Ultima, it's relatively "peaceful", as indicated by its name.

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>>51732683
I mean if you get rid of the knights from a Knight world it wouldn't be a Knight world. The description for Knight worlds are basically technologically advance worlds like from the start of the Dark Age of Technology, yet the society have a Terran Pre-Tech Dark Age feudalism. The planets' military swears fealty to the people's protection and the Imperium's call-to-arms.

>>51732494
Confederation of Light and Church of The Savior Emperor are post-Crusade/WotB, but have their roots in Katholian sects, and also continue the Katholian/Yechudite conflict from the Age of Strife.
I'm expanding the Shadow Wars to be a general term for any internal conflict of the Imperium that doesn't qualify as an open war, with the CSE/COL Imperial Cult War being the longest and largest of them. They also treated the Great Civil War as another front in the fight between xenophobic, Oscar worshipping, exclusionary, grimdark fanatics, and their great enemy, the inclusionary, Oscar and Isha worshipping, noblebright zealots. It just so happened that the Imperial Palace and Emperor Vandire was a part of that expanded front.
But anyways, we need to drag up old stuff and argue about it. Like which interpretation of the Sororitas works better, and is cooler, for example; or C'Tan vampires - brokenly horrifying, or horrifyingly broken? Do Astartes write fanfic? How many Guardsman make a standard economic index?
And who the fuck is the walrus? Who is it that says "goo goo catchoo"?
Are you the lemon?

>>51733424
I thought we had the Sororitas augmentations hammered out. All we need is the actual history behind them and we're good to go.

Like the idea of the Shadow Wars. It was mentioned somewhere else that the Navigators are still up to their old shit. I think it was mentioned waaaay back in thread 2 that some planets are still squabbling over old feuds beneath the Imperium's radar so as not to bring down the wrath of the Imperial Army.

>>51733295
So if Colchis is made up of a bunch of independent nation-states, who nonetheless swear fealty to a central, independent Space Pope, and have advanced enough technology to have spaceships but no Knight Titans, what do we call it?

Really not sure as I was not the one who came up with the design for nobledark Colchis and I hope I am following the original idea closely enough.

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>>51733424
>Let's make the most powerful C'tan vampire have nuclear holocaust level powers!
Yea, I prefer the brokenly horrifying to the horrifyingly broken. Keep in mind, a pure shard is Warlord Titan tier powerful. Still being absolutely monsters to fight on an individual level, a vampire is a walking tank with a healing factor. You either throw tanks, explosives, or 20 good men at it to kill a vampire. People dealing with them should be think "Holy shit, I don't want to be turned to paste like that!" instead of "Looks like they'll have to exterminatus this world".
(pic related)

>>51733424
>>51733694
Same here. Maybe a very few, very old, very exceptional vampires get to nuclear holocaust power, but you should be able to count the number of those on one hand. Maybe one per strain of vampire, exemplar and greatest example- maybe even originator- of that type?

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>>51733424
>Sisters
Orders Militant: When you want something better than Cadian Guardsmen but not as expansive as Space Marines.
Orders Securitas: Spying? They put the STASI to shame. Hunting down Fallen Marines? Better at it than regular Space Marines.

>>51733694
>>51733747
I kind of liked the suggestion that the C'tan vampires are basically NANOMACHINES SON levels of power. Total nightmare to fight on an individual level. Maybe a few very old, or very powerful vampires get to OH GOD power levels, but they are rare, like >>51733747
suggested.

It all kind of boils down to the fact that the Imperium can be described as a war on two fronts, which is even more pronounced here due to the civility/barbarity theme.

On the one hand, you have the war outside the walls of civilization. This is the world of Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, what have you. On the other hand, you have the war within civilization. The scale of large cities (especially hive cities) ironically means that you end up having pockets of barbarity in what, are supposed to be the most civilized places there are. Hive Worlds are considered just as good as Death Worlds for Space Marine recruitment in vanilla, after all. This is the world of Dark Heresy, of things like Chaos cults, genestealer broods, and C'tan vampires.

In the war within society, raw power is often traded for the ability balance power with being unnoticed. The biggest, baddest forces in the war outside society are things like Space Marines. Inside society the scariest things you can run into are C'tan vampires, Inquisitors, and Sisters of Battle.

>>51733791
When we were talking about the Astartes-Sister rivalry, I kind of imagined a good-natured shit-talking like this in a pub somewhere.

"No Sister can ever beat an Astartes in one-on-one combat."
"Since when do Sisters ever fight alone?"
"Pfft. Then you're saying one marine is worth three Sisters."
"No, I'm saying Astartes are expensive. Melta charges are cheap."

>>51733791
Wait a minute, isn't Securitas the overall group, and the Orders Militant are one of the subdivisions in them or something?

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>>51733949
This is why I suggested changing the name of Ordo Securitas to Ordo Traitorous. All of the Sisters Orders work for the Inquisition but specifically Ordo Securitas which almost have the same name as Orders Securitias.

>>51733676
History is the primary interpretation argument. I'll have to trawl for my v2 pastebin.
>>51733791
Basically. Securitas is what the Inquisition and the Arbites call for backup, so they need both spying, analysis, and combat skills. They are SWAT, FBI specialists, and Intel analysts combined.
>>51733941
" I won't fight a Sister, they cheat."
"So what you're saying is that you don't have enough brains to fight smart."
>>51733949
The Inquisition has the Ordo Securitas, who are the primary investigators for special crimes, threats, and multi-sector issues. They are the NSA and CIA to the Arbites FBI.
The Sororitas Orders Securitas are the backup to the Inquisition. Their Orders Militant are a specialist force of the Imperial Army, like the Astartes.
Its confusing, like the Imperium as a whole.

>>51734050
Ordo Traitorous works pretty well, especially since it helps define their role as to not officialy overstep the Arbites too much.

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>>51734092
>Help! Help! This corrupt offical is embezzling money!

>So? Let the Arbites deal with it.

>The official is funding [separatist, Chaos, or renegade military forces]!

>Dominica, get the flamers...

>>51733949
>>51734050
>>51734074
Ordo Traitorus? Jesus Christ, I thought we were trying to simplify and standardize everything, not confuse things farther by introducing another name/organization.

It's already established the Ordo Securitas is the 3rd major Ordo of the Inquisition along with the Malleus and Xenos. It's function is pretty much the canon Ordo Hereticus+Sicarius since they police the internal affairs and systems of the Imperium.

The Sisters of Battle are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Securitas. I guess it's also time for the once per thread reminder that we're sticking somewhat close to and reinterpreting canon, there are other AUs for wholesale rewrites.

>>51734169
Now, make it even more complicated. The nobles embezzlement could be impacting a necessary industry, or be reducing the tithe presented. The Arbites might not have "enough" evidence to get a warrant, or a judge is being paid off to not convict. Or the Inquisitor wanted to investigate said noble and helped lend additional weight to the official investigation.
The Inquisition is not bound by the same regulations as the Arbites, and has a tighter focus than "every breach of local and Imperial law". Organized crime is Arbites jurisdiction. The wandering pirate port of Rum And Pour is Inquisition jurisdiction. A squabble between two local churches is Arbites. A multi-world war between two faiths is Inquisition (Cohort Religio, specifically).
Breaches of Regulatory Law is Arbites. Breaches of the Big Five (the Declartio Fidelitas) is Inquisition.
The Inquisition can request aid from any branch of the Imperial Government. Any branch can demand that the Inquisition look into anything.

>>51734074
"Astartes always fight smart. You can teach a servitor to slap a det-pack on something."
"You know what I find funny?"
"What?"
"The Administratum says the reason women can't receive gene-seed implants is because the gene-seed is keyed to male chromosomes. The Sisters say the Emperor had to give you guys the better augmentations so that his Angels of Death wouldn't lose to a girl"

>>51734337
Second. I don't even remember the name Ordo Traitorus ever coming up.

I thought the Sisters were the Securitas. Or at the very least their militant arm.

>>51734396
>>51734337
Orders Securitas are the militant arm of the Inquisition, with each order being assigned an area of space. They Inquisit in between visits from Inquisitors.
Orders Militant are Astartes-lite, since the total number of potential sisters are about 2-4 orders of magnitude higher than the number of potential Astartes. They fill in the gaps for when the Army needs a heavy assault unit, but there are no marines available.
The other Orders perform humanitarian and specialist tasks for the rest of the Imperium - like all bureaucracies, the Sororitas has expanded over time, rather than farm a task out to another organ of government.

>>51734367
"Don't get me started on losing to a Sister. I lose half my pay to one every month, even with the bonus she gave me."
"What happened?"
"We had an argument over who the Emperor favored. Then she filed a request for my stored genes and had us a kid. Damn regs ruled in her favor. But little Ulrich is one hell of a scout in the Iron Hammers now, and the other kids are cute."
"But how does she get half your pay?"
"I got an even bigger bonus for marrying her. Make two and half times what I did before this."

>>51732293
It's fucking beautiful.

HAs it been added to the 1d4chan yet?

Also it begs the question of what their regiments are like and the state of the world in the Dark Millennium.

Also would they see themselves as closer to the eldar ideal than the craftworlders or no different?

>>51736939
I believe it was mentioned way back in whatever thread that came up with it that Craftworlds like Alaitoc point to Colchis as proof that mankind isn't completely hopeless and can eventually be civilized. Something about Colchians getting along better with your average Eldar than most humans do as well.

>>51737629
I'm going to suggest that they are seen as everything wrong with modern society by Dorhi and the human supremacist groups.

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>>51738180
>See, this is the cultural suicide of both the Eldar and human of this world. What my sights lay upon is the abominable fusion of both and the advancement of none. This is the destruction of Eldar culture and their human partners follow suit, there is the strength of none while holding the weakness of both.
- unknown Norhai writer

>>51731095
Having read through Nightmare to Come/Age of Dusk and attempted to get into Imperium Asunder and Hektor Heresy...yes, this is barely a new lick of paint by comparison.

>>51733941
>>51733949
>>51734050
>>51734074
>>51734169
>>51734358
>>51734511

Are we trying to rewrite the securitas AGAIN?

Their earliest fluff was:
>the Ordo Securitas was set up as Imperial IA
>since it had regulatory power over all other Adepta and Officios, it got the Decree Passive slapped on them
>Inquisitors quickly find the loophole and use it


This then got retconned to:
>Securitas formed
>Dominica specifically wanted the former Brides of the Emperor to be folded into the Ordo as penitence for their role under Vandire
>Over time, the Sisters as an organisation eventually spread out and grew to the point that they were in service with Inquisitors of all Ordos.
>Since the Space Marines are not independent of the Imperial Army this time, they can't just randomly be called on for detached duty with an Inquisitor's retinue.
>Instead, the Sisters serve that role of "Inquisitor needs some big muscle and bigger guns", with another advantage over SMs being that they can still blend in with civilian populations (at a stretch).

That's the last I remember of the Sororitas/Securitas discussion, although it was something like half a dozen threads ago.
>I have no idea where the Orders Securitas came from, and as far as I know they don't exist.
>Contrary to >>51734511, the Sisters do NOT serve as frontline troops except in special cases (less "we need Operators Operating Operationally but can't get a hold of any marines", more "this Inquisitor wanted to go and punch some demons, so his retinue did as well").
>not "m-muh sexism" but just simply because of their being attached to the Inquisition instead of the Army.
>If anything, this adds to the SoB/SM rivalry, with the former convinced the Administratum won't let them fight "real" battles.

tl;dr: >>51734337 has it completely right, although I imagined the Securitas being a smaller Ordo that specifically polices the Imperium's own internal workings - having them as Nobledark!Hereticus works perfectly fine too, though.

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>>51738337
>See that fool? That one right there? That is the actual suicide of both eldar and humanity. I look upon them and I would be turned to pity were it not for the disgust at their stagnation and wretchedness. They prattle ona bout purity whilst their society crusts over in bones of wraith and dies starved of lover or sunlight. They prattle on about purity, romanticizing a time that never was when they liven in some unseen Eden all the while carefully omitting their decadence and depravities. Let them turn inwards and look no more upon the outside world. We will pick their corpses clean, we will out last them, our beautiful hybrid society ever young, ever vigorous. If they can't change they will rot.
- Her Ecumenical Excellence Mother Dwynwen XXIII of Colchis.

>>51739280
Actually, yeah, the conservative Eldar stance is pretty untenable when you remember that pure, old empire style Eldar culture still exists, and its in the Eye of Terror, ruled by Slaanesh and Malys.

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>>51739150
All I want is to change the name of Ordo Securitas to Ordo Traitorous, that's it. Especially for newfags Ordo Securitas and Orders Securitas is very confusing. It also sounds more fitting, an order that just hunts traitors instead of being space police.

>http://pastebin.com/rsCB8189
Orders Militant and Orders Securitas is where I'm getting my names from. I think this was written by Sany Guardsman(?)

>>51739514
I think I vaguely remember having read that from a while ago - afaik, they had the Sororitas written as partially being dedicated to the Inquisition but also having wider roles (like the vanilla SoBs). From what I can tell, Orders Securitas just meant the sisters in the service of that Ordo

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>>51739445
(Using the Victorian definition) I don't think conservative Imperial Eldar would want to recreate the Eldar Empire because you know, Slanneshe. They would want to keep the status-quo of being what is basically client states of Terra just like the human worlds. The nationalist on the other hand would want to see independent Eldar states but still wouldn't try to recreate an Eldar empire, maybe something like the HRE actively trying to not be too strong. Reactionary Eldar are the type to massacre a orbital station and say "We'll recreate the Eldar Empire ,but this time, do it right!" being a bunch of edgy Grimdark bastards. Thankful of all the warring factions in this AU, the Imperial separatists are the weakest, for they represent what this galaxy could have become if everybody held the idiot ball.

>"Years of Lead" between human separatist and Eldar separatist

Also Eldar Crosiers are the closest to non-degenerate Eldar Empire aesthetically.

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Are there Lamenters in the Noble Darkness?

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>>51741104
I don't think anybody mentioned them yet. I wonder if they are just really unlucky or Tzeentch loves fucking them around.

>>51741104
They're referenced indirectly in the Sangy fluff, and it's likely they would have been formed as a chapter during the breaking of the legions. I imagine the main difference is that their heroic sacrifices are actually meaningful now instead of being hilariously pointless.

>>51739514
Yeah, that was me.I tried for a reinterpretation that would fit roughly to vanilla.
>>51739150
I kept the Decree Passive, and loopholed that with "the Inquisition must request aid from another organization if they need more firepower", and then added Sororitas Standing Order 3: any sister must honor any request for inquisitorial aid". Since if the Sisters were part of the Inquisition, they too would be subject to the Decree Passive.
Oscar don't play with loopholes, and used a loophole of his own to show it: the Imperium has The Big Five laws, with their attendant sub laws and explanations (such as the section dealing with the tithe). Those are the only laws it has. Everything else is just a Regulatory Ruling.

>>51741930
That's a good point.

In Vanilla the rules lawyers got their akshully face on and nobody could do or were willing to do anything about it because they were following the letter of the law.

This time round Oscar can tell them to stop playing silly buggers and make amendments as needed. Or encourage amendments to be made if he feels like being gentle.

>>51741331
I don't think their sacrifices and suffering were pointless in Vanilla so much as ineffectual. They die for a higher cause and the universe just keeps on chugging forwards.

This time they would be on an equal legal footing with all chapters as their doesn't seem to be a super veneration of the First Foundings. They can call out the bullshit and it will have weight. If there is a law/"strongly encouraged" guideline from Oscar about age of consent in the augmentation process then there is almost certainly something preventing mass abductions as a means of recruitment. So people over the age of 16 - 18 have to willingly let themselves be strapped to the operating slab and be rebuilt into a living Juggernaut.

If the Lamenters, who would be seen by the plebeian masses as big damn heroes, start digging up shady practices of other legions then they might find the recruitment lines drying up like thin spit on a hot stove.

And those disillusioned masses run straight to the open arms of the Lamenters. Becoming a Super Soldier is a hard choice, if they were going to do it they were going to do it and now they can still do it with a clear heart. Lamenter ranks a full to overflowing, their praises sung across the galaxy.

They are very much like anti-Minotaurs. They are the ones who pick you back up and lend you some spare gear rather than teamkilling for delicious loot.

>>51743459
There are so many regulations. Technically speaking, the Imperium doesn't rule worlds, it's simply an interstellar federation that provides a common basis for defense and trade. In reality, it rules worlds - no trade can happen off world without the manufacturing, shipping, and distribution following the appropriate regulations. Every world is free to make its own laws - provided they don't clash with regulations. Thankfully, 99% of all regulations are easy to follow and prove that this Imperium has common sense.
But in return, a planet gets a lot. Every bit of imperial infrastructure is available on request, pending availability. Schools, tech support, military aid, even a common trade currency. To a planet that will struggle to survive in a larger galaxy, all of this is invaluable. Even prosperous, multi-stellar, nations find it helpful, since it can free up some of their resources.

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>>51743865

>>51744966
Yeah, basically. I pulled that interpretation from Traveller.
If I weren't on a tablet and watching my nieces, I would be helpful and trawl for notes to add to the pages. So instead I'm sitting here hoping for fluff I can try and extrapolate on, or clarify.

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>>51743865
>A Hegemonic Empire maintains control by making other people want to be part of it, typically by Rule of Cool and being the lesser of two evils. Therefore, it justifies all of its potential infringements in civil liberties or human rights as Necessary Evil.

- exempt from TV Tropes

>>51743459
A few points regarding the Lamenters.

The thing is, their sacrifices in canon really are that pointless, it's pretty much a succession of shaggy dog stories one after another. Whereas the Ultramarines stop Hive Fleet Behemoth with the sacrifice of their 1st Company or the Astral Knights blow up the World Engine, the Lamenters take heavy losses freeing millions of slaves from Orks only to find they have no ships to get them off planet. Or when they did the right thing and helped their best bros against the overreach of the Inquisition, only to find out their buddies were corrupted by Chaos. Oops. They're essentially a black comedy showing the pointlessness of being a good person in a grimdark universe.

Which brings us to the Lamenters in our AU. The way you've described them, there's not a whole lot to separate them from the Blood Angels and they lose their flavor. They're not the Super Popular Cool Kids, they're the Lamenters. To me, most Blood Angel successors represent an aspect of Sanguinius, and to me, the Lamenters represent Sanguinius' recognition of his own powerlessness and maybe a bit of his self-doubt, that for all his talents and power his ability to affect the universe is ultimately very limited. That's what they lament, their own powerlessness.

So while another chapter might celebrate a successful crusade or the defeat of a Waaagh, the Lamenters would say, "we could have done more." That sort of self-deprecation and melancholy means they're probably not a lot of fun to hang out with, and probably not super popular with the Imperium at large. Highly respected, yes, deeply appreciated, yes, but there are more charismatic chapters out there that are more likely to win the love of the common man.

That's how I see the Lamenters working in this nobledark AU so we can retain a bit of their character.

>>51745412
>the pointlessness of being a good person in a grimdark universe
On a broader scale, the problem with trying to fit in the Lamenters here is the fact that they are pretty much THE textbook example of nobledark in Vanilla 40k - and replicating them verbose in a setting full of their themes would be boring as shit.

That being said, I do like your idea of Nobledark Lamenters basically being BAs during Sanguinala, except 24/7

>>51745412
That's good. It also explains why they are so low on numbers whilst not being shafted by the authorities.

They answer every distress call but they don't have super Ultramar huge resources to draw upon and they can't keep up with the attrition anymore.

Also in this AU the last apothecary of the Celestial Lions really was shot by on ork with a sniper rifle.

>>51745412
As a side note, I think the First Founding chapters would still have a level of respect and veneration above their peers in this AU. I think we discussed this briefly in an old, old thread, but given that the breaking of the legions was a voluntary act this time and not an enforced decree, there is no formal or legal reason why a legion can't exist. Thus the Chapter Master of a First Founding chapter has the option to call for a reformation of the legion, recalling all the successor chapters to fight under the banner of the old legion in times of crisis. It's a hugely monumental event and probably hasn't happened more than 2 or 3 times in each First Founding chapter's history, and only happens in extreme crises like Black Crusades.

This would mean that the CM of the First Founding chapter has an additional level of authority, making him a first among equals with his successor peers. Add on the fact that the most well respected captain probably took over the original chapter when the legion was broken up, and you have some solid reasons for why the First Founding chapters retain a certain level of elevation above the rest.

>>51745519
Just because a call to reformation is called does not mean that it is answered. If the cause is just then a wayward chapter might lend such aid as it sees fit, but as equals, not under foreign command.

Mortificators are Ultramarine 2nd founding for example. First of their Chapter Masters a former captain of the Ultramarines.

They are all death cultists who treat the Coded as helpful suggestions at best, I can't see them giving too much of a shit about what Papa Smut says.

>>51744966
pic related also correctly described where Strigoi see themselves in that system.

>>51745739
Well, just so we're clear, the Codex IS just a bunch of helpful suggestions this time, Guilliman didn't ram it down anyone's throat. There's a lot of good ideas in it, so chapters tend to pick and choose what fits them.

You're right, there's no obligation to answer the call, but then you'd be That Guy who turned his back on his bros, especially since the call only comes during times of extreme crisis. Like, it doesn't come during crises where the idea is "shit, we could lose a whole sector," the call comes when it's a situation of "OH FUCK THIS COULD THREATEN THE WHOLE IMPERIUM." So I would imagine most chapters wouldn't be too comfortable being That Guy.

So it turns out the discussion we had last thread about how much the modern Imperium remembers the nations of Old Earth actually turned into a really good codex entry when you put it all together.

The only thing I kind of feel bad about is it cannibalizes the in-universe quotes from the last thread, which provided a pretty good look at the Imperium on their own.

The entry is kind of primarch heavy, but more focused on how Unification era Earth is viewed in M41. Part of this is because we don’t really have a lot of other Old Earth figures that would have written a lot on their home. Malcador was already mentioned. Kharn and Abbadon were too focused on military endeavors to do so. Typhus was an offworlder. Ahriman probably would have, especially given that he would have noticed he was one of the people in the highest position of power to speak for Achaemenidia, which was a nice place but had no primarchs. Bjorn. Huh. Maybe.

Should I put something other than mono-molecular structures in the quote? I know the Imperium didn’t discover the mono-molecular knife STC until M41 or something, though mono-molecular materials is a future technology something the Imperium would be super-excited about, even if they couldn’t apply it anywhere yet, and the Eldar would be like “Yeah, so?” given their extensive use of that technology.

http://pastebin.com/YvHCNCep

>>51745966
That is beautifully written and the mono-molecular addition and the eldar reaction fit perfectly.

A thousand years after WotB old nations would have been all but forgotten. That's just the way of things.

I remember the Soviet Union, but I can already see the memory fading in the eyes of younger men and that is right and well.

>>51745966
Yeah, it'd be a little weird for the Eldar not to share their technology with the Imperium. I think we agreed the general tech level of the Imperium is a bit higher than canon Great Crusade since knowledge wasn't lost and some small advancements were made, it's just that the high end goodies are rare due to cost and limited ability to produce it.

Also, if you want to include/expand on the little blurb I wrote for Sanguinius' writing, it is here >>51717346

>>51745394
They try to be even less evil than the lesser evil. But 10,000 years of warfare, and the need to maintain a stable and chaos free empire, will make you the lesser evil. Thus, one of the themes of our Imperium is the best we wish to be vs the best we can do.

>>51743459
Agree with >>51745412. Also it makes the Lamenters look like Tattletale Marines (who are tattling for their own gain) more than anything else, as opposed to the selflessness which is their big shtick.

Also, how many chapters would be resorting to mass abductions for recruitment? If the Imperium suspects your chapter is doing something shady, they send you to the back of the line for new gear as a warning to make them shape up. If they can outright confirm it they send the Sisters and perhaps another chapter or two knocking on your door.

Outright raiding other worlds like Huron Blackheart and the Imperium brings the locomotive.

>>51745519
It does sound like this is the general trend. The chapters who kept the Legion name seem to have generally got the best men and planet the Legion had, with the exceptions of visionaries who had their own ideas on how to run a chapter (e.g., Typhus, possibly the Crimson Fists if they're like in canon).

Given how none of the primarchs (except maybe Curze, Morty, and Perty) would be okay with mass abduction, you would also get the descendant chapters ganging up on any offending sibling.

Of course as >>51745739 says you probably get chapters who disown their parent legions, and ignore their sibling chapters as well.

>>51745412
It would certainly explain why they're called the Lamenters. They started out thinking maybe Sanguinius wouldn't have died if only they could have done more. They see every man, woman, and child that die because they weren't fast enough as their fault. They see everything, no matter how hard they try, as just not good enough.

>>51746266
Counterbalancing that is a greater amount of damage to infrastructure caused by the Age of Strife and the WotB.
Also, high end goodies can be produced in massive numbers - but its still not enough to be common across the Imperium. Personal defence shield projectors is an example: a dedicated factory can produce 1 per 150 manhour of work, taking a 5 man team for product assembly, 6 people to machine the parts, 2 people to form the stock used for the parts, and 2 people for quality control over the entire process.
This is if the factory has been running non stop with no loss of knowledge, and its a veteran team doing the build. Now imagine just how juicy of a target this factory, its blueprint repository, and its workers, are to chaos and separatists.
Infrastructure is what gives you the ability to fight and win wars. This is what Chaos targets, for destruction and raids. Chaos can get around their infrastructure issues by summoning daemons and binding them into an appropriate receptacle, raiding for just about anything else, and brute force manufacturing what they really need to make in house.

>>51746266
I think it was mentioned that the Eldar don't share as much of their tech as one would think because of REEEE-ing AdMech. There was mention of hybrid wraithbone experimentation FAR AWAY from Mars in M41, because the AdMech are getting desperate enough to bend their old rules and the Imperium needs literally everything it can find to fight the tyranids, Necrons, Chaos, and Orks.

>>51746266

Will add Sangy. Had thought about him since Objectively Best Primarch got turned into chicken tenders before it became cool to write about Old Earth.

Was not trying to be exhaustive about the primarch's books (since that included other things like the Tome of Fire and Typhon's book). More on how the people of Old Earth tried to preserve the memories of their culture in some way as represented by the efforts of the primarchs...and they failed.

>>51745479
>ork with a sniper rifle
Which is not necessarily the same as an ork sniper.

>>51746730 (samefag)
Fun fact, the whole "Magnus wrote about how ridiculous Ursh was, and no one believed him, but it was true" is actually part of vanilla canon. It didn't involve Magnus of course, but the vanilla Imperium had something similar in the canonical Chronicles of Ursh, which described how bat-shit insane Ursh was including the summoning of daemons and warp-sorcery. The Imperium dismissed it under the Imperial Truth despite every word being true. If they had paid more attention to it the Horus Heresy probably wouldn't have caught everyone off guard.

>>51746730
Reform Mechanicus. Only 1.25% of the total tech priests, but still a large force of advancement. Sorta. The eldar dont like sharing wraithbone, the tau think humans can't get battle suits right, the Jokero are crazy, and the hyper orthodox AdMech will do literally anything to remove xenos tech from the universe. Like funding terrorist groups to blow up bonesingers and battlesuit mechanics.

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>>51734050
>>51734092
>>51734337
>>51739150
>>51739514
>>51739731

I'm confused. And here I thought that the Sororitas and Securitas were the same thing, the former starting out as a derogatory name for the latter that stuck. Securitas being their "official" name in High Gothic like "Astartes" is for Space Marines.

Also wouldn't it be Proditorus if we are keeping the High Gothic-is-Latin thing?

>>51747516
Its pseudo Latin.
Okay, so the Adepta Sororitas are an organization separate from the Inquisition, but with a standing order (as in, a rule they all follow) to support the Inquisition. They both have an internal division with the same name: Ordo Securitas for the Inquisition, and the Orders Securitas for the Sororitas. The Orders Securitas are dedicated to support of the Ordo Securitas, while the other Orders of the Sororitas perform other tasks to support the Imperium, like disaster relief and maintaining the Memorial Worlds (the replacement for Shrine Worlds, since the Imperium does not have an official religion).
The Ordo Securitas is the Internal Affairs and Special Investigation branch of the Inquisition. It focuses on governmental corruption and breaches of the Big Five laws. The Inquisition needs a dedicated support organization that is legally separate because it does have the Decree Passive, which restricts a single Inquisitor to just ten alcolytes and an Escort Grade vessel (a frigate or destroyer), or a cargo transport. Anything else had to be requested from another organization for a specific purpose and duration. These requests for aid often disrupted a lot of necessary things, like war efforts or food shipments.
The original Sororitas were made of:
Surviving and defecting members of the Brides of The Emperor (Vandire's personal bodyguards/special operatives/concubines)
The Sisters of Silence (later on)
And a civilian disaster relief organization that was all female due to its religious background of Isha worship (the Sisters Solamens, later the Orders Solamens).

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>>51747516
>Proditorus
If High Gothic really was Latin, then Ordo Hereticus should be Haereticus. The closest thing to High Gothic is Germanized Latin which makes a lot of sense. Pretty much half of the developed world speak either the a Romance language or the Germanic tongues. One of the first languages to leave Terra would be the Latinized, Germanics, and Chinese.
(pic related)

>>51747872
I thought the implication was that Low Gothic and High Gothic are languages that no one today would understand (they could be a derivative of Mandarin Chinese, Hindi, Spanish, and English for all we know), but they are translated as English and Latin for the readers convenience, because when readers (read:Brits) think of a "high" language and a "vulgar" language, Latin and English are the first two that come to mind.

>>51747860
Oh, I see. The issue is we somehow ended up with an Inquisitorial branch called the Securitas, and an Adeptas Branch called the Securitas.

Also, aren't the Sisters of Silence dead?

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>>51746942
>Doian Liberation Front attacks a cargo hover transports with Mechanicus emblems on it.
>The only guards are inexperience PDF troopers with old stubbers.
>Separatist uses pre-planned kill zones to ambush the PDF.
>After winning the ambush, the DLF plant explosives on the transports.
>Before the bombs could denote, the separatist near the transports are killed by Tech-Priests bursting out.
>DLF panics then set off the bombs early while mowing down everybody close to the convoy.
>DLF runs away when they thought everything was dead.
>Unknown to the DLF, the convey was taking researchers off-world to a research station.
>The DLF was informed by a shady servitor that Eldar weapons were going to built to put down a human rebellion.
>They were told that materials to build such weapons was being moved off-world under a Machanicus emblems.
>It was actually Tech-Priest secretly being transferred to research Eldar weaponry.
>Shadow Wars: Techno boogaloo

Information obtained by Securitas Sisters after enhanced interrogation methods on DLF members, along with leaks from informants.

>>51748447
Donia not Doia.

>>51748447
My basic goal is to give the Imperium a nerf in the form of lots of internal conflict.
Also, because it provides adventure. I come at 40k from an RPG perspective, not a wargame one.
>>51748383
We needed a replacement for the Hereticus, since, you know, no Imperial religion.

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>>51748719
Come to think of it, we made the Orkz stronger, Tyranids attack sooner, unholy Dark Crone Eldar union, and corruption stronger. While having Humans, Eldar, and Tau under the Imperium to counter Chaos. Sisters are smarter to counter corruption and decent industry to counter Tyranids. Necrons are a wild card that might be able to reproduce again. Almost everybody don't hold the idiot ball except for the GrimDark separatist, who are being controlled by Chaos, vampires, or an Imperial organization in the numerous Shadow Wars. Only a few legions worth of Marines become Fallen but receive more buffs from the gods.

My introduction to 40k was looking at Imperial Guard models, so that's why I do go into detail about Guardsmen.

>>51748383
I'm guessing the combat ones are dead but the ones working on the Black Ships are still alive.

>>51749184
My first actual introduction to 40k was a SoB model. Until then, I thought it was stupid. Especially when my friend in high school told me that GW didn't want anybody using actual military tactics when he was reading the IG codex.
Seriously, I tried to read the IG codex (back in... 2010, I think?), and all I got out of it was "we stopped studying military history after WW1, but brought in the tanks that broke trench warfare, and you're fighting armies that ignore trenches".
Part of why I thought 40k was stupid.
Then I found Dark Heresy, and many sins were forgiven. Except the grimderp.

>>51749518
But that's why the Sororitas is my baby.
I'm also a compulsive world builder, so religion, sociology, governmental structures, ands various background details are my thing.

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>>51749518
Back in 2008, my friend described to me Space Marines which I thought sounded stupid and ridiculous. Then I saw his Guardsmen models that looked very nice. Eventually, I somehow ended up in a Black Crusade campaign, where we stole super secret Imperial ships and their blueprints while helping a Black Crusade by launching diversionary attacks from the Maelstrom. Loving Chaos at the time, I heard of the Sisters thinking "Amazonian Gothic nuns, so?" then I saw the models thinking "Holy flamers!" and that's how I converted.

>>51750001
I've never played any 40k. I could never afford any models or codexes, and I couldn't find anynbody that I wanted to play DH with (or any 40k RPG). Mostly because they gave me the vibe of "you're a reasonable person. The Inquisition kills you for being reasonable. Refusing to engage in excessive senseless violence is a sign of chaos worship.".
You can see my attachment to this project.

So are there Zoats in this setting?

>>51747860
>>51748383
>>51749728
The whole thing with the internal divisions is probably why editfag 'n' co wanted to simplify it - keeping the structure roughly as it was in vanilla, except the Orders Militant just serve as the Inquisition's shooty muscle.

>>51751455
This is what the Sisters are roughly like in Vanilla. I added Securitas because in vanilla the Sisters have nothing Inquisition related, while here they do - the Orders Militant were specifically for the front lines in vanilla. And being a soldier and being a cop/spy are rather different specialties.
We could rename the Orders Securitas to Orders Inquisitorial or something like that if the term closeness is too confusing.
To be fair, I added two types of Orders (Securitas and Solamens), and removed the Dialogus, whose schtick now belongs to the Rhetor Imperia.

Page 10 bamp

>>51749184
The Krole fluff has then pulling a Thermopylae so the Black Ships can escape.

The Necrons definitely got a buff as well. Silent King has nearly everyone unified under his banner except a few crazies or wild cards that don't fit his policies, and he has all the super-tech the Necrons had been building years ago. Including four or five extra World Engines.

>>51748719
Having too much internal conflict, especially separatism, doesn't make a whole lot of sense on two levels though. First is in-universe, inclusion in the Imperium is largely voluntary, unlike canon where the Imperium has a manifest destiny hardon and wants to rule the galaxy. So if a world is agitating enough to leave, Oscar would just cut them loose and say "I told you so" when they get curb stomped by the next Waaagh because the Imperial Army is no longer around to protect them.

There could certainly be maneuvering and scheming within the structures of the Imperium, but that would be largely bloodless, and small groups of separatists are certainly present, but their impact would be limited. Essentially, separatist sentiment shouldn't reach a planetary government level or else the Imperium will just leave them to their devices and indulge in some schadenfreude when the next crisis rolls around.

Second is thematic. Obviously people are flawed and will disagree and scheme, some times violently, but again at the basis of this AU is the theme that people are good and work together to face down the true evil in the galaxy, and having too much internal conflict undermines that.

The way I see it, the Imperium buffs are largely countered by how much scarier the xenos are in this setting, as the full hive fleet is here, the Orks are more organized, and Necrons are mostly unified instead of being a bunch of warring dynasties.

>>51755619
It was mentioned in earlier threads that there is still some low level tension going on, planets trying to settle old pre-Imperial grudges behind the Imperium's back. Separatist movements who think things aren't as bad as they are and want to break away (often covertly backed by Chaos).

People may be inherently good, but they're also inherently flawed.

It's probably like what people often say about vanilla 40k. There are lots of planets in the Imperium with no covert tension, you just hear about the ones that do because that's where it happens.

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>>51755619
All this talk of internal conflict made me write this yesterday night.

Flames Rising
>http://pastebin.com/z2zDF9CS
Securitas Sisters play with fire.

It was mentioned last thread that Oscar and Isha adopt and must have over the centuries adopted what must be thousands at least.

Criteria for adoption into the Royal Family would probably involve psychic development in infancy. Typically it only starts at puberty, a psychic child is horrifying and needs to be raised by another psyker. Preferably a stronger one.

Add to this that all eldar children are very low psychics and Macha is desperate to have a child of her own.

The great tragedy of it is that they can't be given rejuvenants for nothing but family connections without it being massively favouritism. The royal couple will outlive all of their children, some a hundred times over.

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>>51755619
Not so much huge rebellions but minor skirmishes on worlds or in space. The separatist within the Imperium are more stupid than Orks because they think their worlds can survive outside of the Imperium. They are the weakest threat to the Imperium because they are a bunch of pawns used by third parties in their Shadow Wars. Edgy GrimDark human fags controlled by Chaos. Assblasted Eldar using Eldar separatist to indirectly attack rivals. Greedy governors lets the separatist get stronger to let them ask for more money then embezzle said extra money. I don't think a majority of citizens on these worlds would want to be independent because the Imperium is effectively a hegemonic empire by M.41. Not to mention why would the Emperor allow worlds to be independent just because of a few violent insurgents. Sure on Vox News you see a terrorist attack but to the wider Imperium that is not the norm and it rarely happens.

>>51757231
One of the reasons that the Separatists won't win is because of Oscar's psychology. He was built and raised to serve humanity. It's hardwired in and the way he was raised. He won't willingly let a world leave because out of the Imperium's aegis they will die. And that will be his fault and he couldn't live with that.

Allowing it even once would set a very bad precedent.

Hence the current war with wayward Severan Dominate.

>>51757452
But at the same time, would fighting a war and sacrificing hundreds of thousands of Imperial lives be worth doing so if all you have to do is wait and watch them squirm a bit before running back.

You don't even have to let the WAAAGH! hit them. Just let them stew for a bit seeing how they like it without aid from the AdMech or the Administratum (no trade across Imperial borders without Writ of Trade, remember?) and then when they panic when the WAAAGH! comes ride in to the rescue before they get wrecked ("ride in" being a relative term due to Warp travel).

>>51758006
That's making the assumption that they would have time to squirm and call for help and that call be answered before everyone ends up dead or worse.

>>51757231
>>51757452
>>51758006
>>51758110

This may be one of those cases where it just isn’t possible for Oscar to do an objectively right thing. Leave the planet defenseless in the case of a WAAAGH! or any of the other horrors that infest the galaxy and you leave billions of people to die. Jump in to defend it despite the planet publicly thumbing their nose at the Imperium and other planets start to wonder why they have to pay the tithe if the Imperium is going to come to their defense anyway. The justification of the tithe is basically you give up supplies and send soldiers to other planets and we make sure someone gets sent to your planet when things are rough. Places like Cadia will balk that a planet gets away with paying no tithe and still receives backup when they are constantly fighting for their life and still have to pay a tithe. On the other other hand, leading a war to take back the planet means that millions of people will end up getting killed in the cross-fire, which could end up just as bad as letting a WAAAGH! hit it. Imagine Krieg but with numerous Imperial assets like Space Marines and Titans on-planet when the nukes start launching.
Declaring war may ironically be the best course of option unless the planet is too fortified. As said on the 1d4chan page, “those rules are broken or the boat is excessively rocked the Imperium suddenly does care and that is terrible because it has no sense of proportional escalation and will confiscate your planet”.

>>51756846
I like it.
>>51755619
I was thinking maybe 1% of planets would have a serious separatist movement. Very few of them succeed. While the spectre of separatism gets played up in media and games, it remains a small threat.
Most Shadow Wars have other causes: religion is a big one, organized crime is even bigger, personal grudges between nobles, planets trying to shove another planet into civil war for political gain, AdMech and manufacturers hiring mercs to sneak into laboratories, stuff like that.
It obviously doesn't cover every planet, or even half of them, but it does cover enough to provide a lot of work for the Inquisition.

>>51757452
>>51758837 (same)

You know, thinking about it a little more, the Severan Dominate might be a good way to explore this issue.

Before I checked Lexicanum, I thought the Severan Dominate was in the Segmentum Pacificus/western Tempestus. If that is the case, then they might have never seen an actual war. They might think that things like a Q'orl invasion or the Badab War represent major conflicts. They may have heard of things like the tyranids, a Beast WAAAGH!, or a Black Crusade, but they might think that these are the same scale of conflict they see but with different xenos and the survivors are just exaggerating the scale.

The Severan Dominate might interpret the overwhelming response of the Imperium to occurences in their sector as the desperate attempts of a failing empire to hold onto power, rather than simply what the Imperium is able to do with it's simply fuckhuge army in times of relative peace. They're like the Tau, but even more arrogant. The Dominate might even be stupid enough to try and get backing from forces that they should know better than to negotiate with to achieve their goals.

But the Dominate are in Obscurus, even if they are on the periphery. They should know what a Black Crusade or major WAAAGH! looks like. They are far enough on the outskirts that they should know that having military power to dissuade xenos from the Koronus expanse would be a good thing.

>>51758837
There are a lot of confiscated planets, places where the term "Imperial Governor" is more than title caused by people electing the Imperial Representative to whatever ultimate position they have.
On these worlds, those people were stupid enough to lose their right of self rule. Direct rule by a Governor chosen by Oscar and Eldrad, the tithe is increased to pay for the forces needed to bring them back in, unemployment is reduced as extra work is brought in to support the war efforts (because if you have an entire planet at your disposal, with no local government to work through, you might as well use it), and... Its actually a pretty nice deal. Planets used to try and get themselves under direct imperial rule until Oscar started threatening to hand them over to the AdMech as new forge worlds.

>>51759234
>liking a /tv/ meme

>>51756846
god fucking dammit I hate baneposting

>>51756846
>>51759781
Seriously, didn't we say we weren't going to have gratuitous references? I'm fine with light heartedness or silliness, but baneposting is so fucking dumb.

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>>51759781
>>51759851
I mean in fairness, I got a Sensible Chuckle (TM) but not much more.

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>>51759515
I would say Oscar and Isha more than Oscar and Eldrad.

Eldrad is not by any means an administrator or a particularly good peace time leader. Times when he assumes direct control is when shit gets real like in the siege of the Imperial Palace during the WotB. If given a handful of assets and a goal he can move those pieces around till the goal is met, grinning manically and dancing like a lunatic, but when it comes to the everyday humdrum he just can't quite cope. He can make good split second decisions and put the ground work in for shit to happen a thousand years from now. Just don't ask him to aim for the middle ground or he gets bored, palms the job off to an underling and wanders off.

Isha can organize things in her own idiosyncratic way, she is a deity, but she is almost as bad at the paperwork as Eldrad.

Oscar is the only one who gives a shit about the smooth running of the colossal but well oiled machine that is the Imperium. He knows well enough to set policy in place and only intervene when it goes wrong or something new turns up and the process needs tweaking.

An Imperial Governor would be appointed under the authority of the Immortal Emperor but the two of them might never have met. In this regard the High Lords have all the authority to act in his name as they see fit and only inform the Emperor if something odd or interesting happens.

This is the reason for the Emperor and Empress going on constant tours and inspections of the Imperium. They are checking up to make sure all those automatic processes that they put in to place are in fact working as intended.

As for Eldrad; he has no official authority beyond that of a Farsser, a role that is primarily advisory in any case. Certainly he has no Imperial title. His authority comes from everyone being either in awe or fear of him, sometimes both at once.

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>>51759781
>>51759851
>>51759904
I just did it to see what it would look like if somebody said "Subtle references? Fuck that shit!" and it looks pretty bad. At least my version of Scions makes them pretty much be on par with the Sisters. I know this is trash teir rip-off.

>>51760117
To be fair, I didn't get the reference. Still don't, but now I know that there is a reference and its driving me crazy.

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>>51760212
https://youtu.be/VRCM0jWEQjQ

>>51760117
Is that right though? Scions are peak human, where as sisters are mildly superhuman.

And since my power level OCD is triggered, might as well touch on this as well. >>51733791 Sure, the Sisters may be better at the literal act of hunting the Fallen (as in investigating and tracking) since they spend lots of time around Inquisitors and have time to train those skills unlike SMs who mostly train to murder things. However, in a stand up fight it wouldn't be close since the gap in raw attributes is so huge, even if the sisters have specialized tactics. Given that we're roughly equating the sisters to Spartans from Halo, the general consensus equivalence I've seen is that 3 Spartans = 1 tactical Marine, and this is with a 50% win rate. So the bare bones team you'd need is 3 sisters to 1 Fallen but this has a significant risk of failure, so you'd probably want to bump it up to 5-6 sisters per average Fallen for a comfortable margin of victory. A sister soloing an SM would be a hero tier feat, similar to an SM soloing a hive tyrant or such. If they ever run into a Chaos Lord and Chaos Terminators, their only recourse is probably going to be "run to the SMs for help" which probably doesn't help their inferiority complex.

>>51760379
Or if they know that it's a Space Marine they hunt and not some 'roid monkey in carapace they can take the melta weapons with them.

Given the inhuman speed and agility of the space marines it's still probably not going to end well for the sister unless she has back up but she is more likely to get lucky.

An in universe thing could be that if you see a sister with a bolter then you know that all is well. To them carrying a bolter is merely being properly dressed. If you see them carrying a melta then briskly and smartly walk in the opposite direction because no matter what you are being paid it is not enough to deal with that level of shit.

>>51760484
Meltas are hampered by their range though, doesn't matter if it can blast through armor if you eat half a mag of bolts to the face before you're in range.

>>51760379
1 squad (10 sisters) per target. Just in case they brought backup.this also gives them a fighting chance to survive a tactical withdrawal against a lord or termie.
>>51760264
Oh. Never actually saw that movie. I got tired of the endless batman reboots a while back.

>>51760561
Now that I think of it, the meltas squad level purpose would probably be to deter the Fallen from charging into melee range where they can utilize their vastly superior strength and minimize the sisters advantage of numbers. The sisters probably want to stay at range and outshoot the Fallen with weight of firepower

>>51760561
>>51760484
Sneaky movements, ultrahot smoke grenades (good against thermal vision), random pattern noise grenades (disrupt hearing, random pattern prevents filtering it out without knowledge of the pattern seed), sensor jammers, and doing everything you can to make it an unfair fight.
That's how you get in range.

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>>51760379
When I say hunt down Fallen Marines, I mean the actual hunting part along with kill the marines. They should have Warpcraft or technology used to nullify most of the Chaos buffs before engaging them. Bring the powerlevel of the Fallen down to almost regular Space Marine level mean you still need 20 Sisters to kill off a 3 man Marine squad. For the case of a Scion 5 man squad facing off a Sister squad on a conventional battlefield, no doubt the Scions would lose. What happened in the "Bane on a plane" story was that most of the Sisters got shot in the head before they can react. When the fighting starts half were dead or KO on the floor. The other half returned fire or wrestled with the prisoners. Just to make sure the Sisters were KO, the voidcraft being pulled tail side up force the Sisters, in semi-power armor, to get concussions or be crushed under their own armor.

Scions are effectively Spec Op Stormtroopers and to them they always want the element of surprise to uneven the playing field. Not to mention they need to act like that in order to not get killed on infiltration missions.

>>51760673
All those obscuring tactics are two way though, might let the Fallen set up their own ambush or get away if that's their goal.

Not trying to wank SMs in any way for the record, I'm just a stickler for power consistency and want to emphasize how scary it should be for even the best non-SM human soldiers to be told they're fighting the Fallen. Like fighting xenos sucks, but you may have some inherent advantages against them, whereas here you're fighting a corrupted paragon of humanity who may just be straight up better than you.

>>51760379
>>51760484
>>51760580
>>51760631
>>51760673
>>51760911
This is purely my own HC, but since we brought up the SCP wiki before, I mostly think of the Sororitas treating Fallen Marines roughly the same way the GOC hunt reality benders:
>trying to kill them before they know you're there is SOP, and all is well
>trying to kill them before they have time to react is risky business, but numbers and kit keep things firmly in your favour
>trying to kill them in open combat? well, the best equipment and augmentations that aren't OPplsnerf fuckery...they'll give you a fighting chance. Hopefully.

To clarify, particularly building on >>51760673, >>51760561 and especially >>51760484, Sisters generally are Operator as fuck when going after Fallen Marines; engagement from range, stealth, or both is generally the only option that won't universally end badly for both sides involved, while meltas/jammers/other fancy toys are just to keep them in the game against a chaos'd up SM who's getting a n g e r y

The thing about
>Bolter = Carry on, Imperial Citizen
>Melta = Batten down the motherfucking hatches
is absolutely fantastic, especially since my current HCs mean that a melta-wielding Sister will probably be shitting herself just as much as you are

>>51760911
It can give the target a hance to turn the tables, and a fallen is definetly superior to just about any force. The average hunting squad can expect to take about three weeks maneuvering the target into the right position, and can expect 1-3 deaths (out of 10) from the final takedown. That's a single target operating on its own.
Hunter squads have to know how to fight dirty, and that spreads to the rest of the sisters. Which is they have a rep as cheaters to the Astartes. Fight one sister, they bring another nine, and at least one will shoot you in the back.
With artillery.
Its just not sporting!

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>>51761297
>Its just not sporting!
You know what's better than a fair kill? An easy kill.

If it's a Space Marine then it already has all the advantages and if it throws away those advantages and allows itself to be maneuvered into a killing ground then that is it's own foolishness.

>>51761386
The sisters do everything they can to push the target into foolishness. Hunter training takes five years, most of it focused on learning SM psychology, recognizing tactical doctrines, architecture, and all the other doctrines needed to prep a kill zone and push a fallen into it. Then the training you need to take it down effectively and quickly in a variety of situations, ranging from "look at this baneblade he's in front of" to "we just set off every epileptic in three klicks with this equipment".
Creed may very well be the child of a very successful Hunter.

>>51760379
>>51760484
>>51760561
>>51760580
>>51760631
>>51760673
>>51760688
>>51760911
>>51761145
>>51761297
>>51761386
>>51761563

When in doubt, cheat. Cheat like a motherfucker. A fair fight is not a fight in which you want to be in. I’m talking ambushes, mines, anything that tilts the playing field in your favor.

A previous thread compared Space Marines to wolves and Sisters to coyotes. Space Marines are good at using teamwork as a force multiplier against similar power or larger foes. They’re not as good when those tactics are used against them. The few enemies who do (IG and tyranids) tend to use outright wave tactics in which it’s really hard to miss hitting at least one enemy. The Sisters, on the other hand, may outnumber you, but they’re also good at not getting hit by your shots. You’re fighting three Sisters, but two of them constantly dart just out of your reach or your aim before the third slaps a Melta Bomb on your back when you aren’t looking.

From what I've seen, a lot of warbands seem to be a bit smaller than their loyalist counterparts. So it should be possible to beat them down with numbers without going so far as to human wave tactics. Of course if you're fighting a chapter-strength group you're going to have to call in at least some Astartes as backup.

I’m not sure, but the possibility also exists that Sisters might be a little bit more agile (or at least better able to take advantage of the environment) than Space Marines as well. Space Marines might be faster, but faster in the same way that a rhinoceros is technically faster than a lion. Yes, Space Marines have more muscle, but they also have a lot more mass they have to lug around. Sisters can also use cover, which Space Marines can’t really use as easily. On the other hand, Space Marines also do have the Black Carapace that makes them much less clunky in their armor. How fast can Space Marines move?

>>51761698 (cont.)
>bolter vs. melta

Absolve me of my negligence, but aren’t meltas kind of like flamers in being good for short range and crowd control, whereas bolters are straight up anti-personnel weapons? It sounds like if you are fighting a few, highly armored targets, a bolter is what you want to take.

If a sister has a melta, it means one of two things. One is that the Sister is expecting to fight weaker foes in enough numbers that under ordinary situations she would be overwhelmed. The other is that the Sister is going to have to take on an opponent that would otherwise be out of her weight class.

You know, the best way to think about this is the following. What would an Astartes chapter do if they had to fight a fallen Custodes?

>>51761711
Meltas are anti-armor warheads. Think hyper thermite mixed with a few kilos of C4.
Flamers are what you were thinking of, but they're also good against power armor: they can overwhelm cooling systems and cook the occupant alive with enough fuel. Think an even nastier napalm.
Flamers are also good against crowds of lightly armored biological opponents, since, you know, napalm.

>>51761711
Meltas are kinda like flamers in terms of being short range, but while bolters are anti-personnel weapons (apart from some specific variants), meltas are the premium anti-armour weapon in the Imperial arsenal. Plasmas carve through armour with similar efficiency but are prone to going kaboom in the hands of literally anyone, which is why melta guns are used by those on higher power levels - however, the flamer-like firing pattern means that you sacrifice the already limited range of plasma weapons for more effectiveness anre safety.

tl;dr:
>Bolters will blow a motherfucker apart
>Flamers will set a lot of motherfuckers on fire
>Meltas will burn/blow through a motherfucker and his armour, and out the other side, comfortably.

>>51761711
Considering that there are only a few hundred Custards if any do fall it will be in ones and twos at most. And they would stink of Chaos and they would be standing close to the Emperor with Chaos mind stink. They would not have a good time.

Assuming one got away then they would have some of the other Custards hunt them down.

If for whatever reason this was not an option then the Grey Knights get given a task. Custards are GKs are cut from the same cloth, the difference being that the GKs are taught to use teamwork better.

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>>51761790
>>51761805

Okay, I see. Wow, meltas are nasty.

Flamers might work, but then you have the problem of fighting an angry space marine ON FIRE until you burn to death.

>>51761842
I was thinking more in terms of how would Space Marines fight an opponent that can crush them one-on-one. Then scale that down to Sisters and Space Marines.

Looked up Space Marine speed. They're supposed to have pretty fast reflexes, but that's compared to baseline humans. But the Sisters here are augmented to some degree, so it's possible they could compete due to lower mass.

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>>51761698
>Cheat like a motherfucker
Scion: And you thought Sisters cheat? Wait until you me in action.

>>51761941
Remember, the same project that produced the Sororitas augmentations also helped upgrade the Astartes (so, Mk III v.A?). The primary reflex booster for the sisters is secondary clusters of artificial neurons at strategic locations to reduce automatic reaction time and free up more brain space for speed and hand-eye coordination.
A single sister could not compete for reflexes against a marine unless she was out of armor - and then she's screwed even more.

>>51761941
fwiw, I remember that we had Sisters being paradoxically somewhat slower and more ungainly than SMs, what with the lack of black carapace to interface with their power armour properly. They're still mildly superhuman, but at this point it's the hardware that fails them rather than their own skill, which itself is a fair way beyond peak human - Sisters are blindfolded knife throwers, Marines are blindfolded knife catchers.

As for weapons, meltas would by far be the most sensible choice in case a stand-off "liquidation" of a Fallen Marine didn't go according to keikaku; the range on them isn't exactly ideal, but it can still really, really fuck up /anyone's/ day, especially when there's a dozen of them taking you on. Not that the Sisters want to have to get close enough to use the meltas - since Marines still have OPplsnerf augs over them - but at least they can face marines in open battle now without shitting themselves /completely/.

>>51762082
Sisters cheat better. Starting with our per-unit budget.

>>51762160
Scions: When you want something better than Stormtroopers but can't afford to outfit Sisters.

>>51762133
I think the one thing we can agree on is if its any of the above versus a Mark III S it's going to be a roflstomp. I mean last thread we have young!Magnus, a Mark I Astartes, and two possibly slightly sub-Sister humans struggling to not die against a top-tier Khornate Daemon Prince.

Some time later, we have Mark III S Astartes repeatedly spanking Greater Daemons of comparable power over their knee.

>>51762472
>all of that post
Wait, what?

>>51762526
Old man Magnus with 1 or 2 Gray Knight platoons killed a Daemon Prince during the Imperial Civil War. So Space Marines are powerful as shit compared to almost every other Imperial solider.

>>51762526
young!Magnus, Khan, Corax, and Lorgar all had to roll for anal circumference when Doombreed showed up the first time.

Sanguinius and the Lord-Commander of the Custodes smashed Ka'Bandha and Kairos Fateweaver into the ground.

>>51762848
1 or 2 platoons and a ridiculously powerful psyker does not constitute "repeatedly spanking greater daemons".
Grey Knights completely understand the Hunter Sisters: they both repeatedly face enemies where the only survivable tactic is to cheat shamelessly.

>>51762897
And that's why Sanguinius gets worshipped and Magnus doesn't.
Besides, those four were intent on surviving. Sanguinius wasn't. Big narrative difference, and the Warp does kind of respond to that...

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>>51731257
>>51738941
>people talking about IA outside of an IA thread

>>51763066
>IA
REEEEEEEEEE OTHER 40K AUS GET OUUUUUUUUT

jk we wanna be a big cool overhaul like you guys, pls don't steal our dinner money

>>51763066
[Spoiler] I read that as Internal Affairs and got really confused [/spoiler]

It warms my heart that people like what I had to say about the Lamenters and that I’ve derailed this thread into a power level discussion.

>>51762472
>>51762526
>>51762897
>>51763049
To clarify, I was very conscious of Sangy’s power level when I wrote that scene. To me, only extremely high level Mk III S Astartes should be able to solo a Greater Daemon (so like a GK Grandmaster) and even then they are likely to die in the process. If you look closely, Sangy fights Ka'Bandha with the help of his Sanguinary Guard who weaken the daemon, and even then 20 of them die who are all hero-level Astartes in their own right (though they only normal Mk III MP). Then, Ka Bandha makes a mistake by retreating into the air where Sangy has an advantage because he’s much more nimble, so that plus the daemon’s wounds means that Sangy can make a pretty clean kill. If he had to solo Ka'Bandha on the ground he still would probably win, but it wouldn’t be nearly as clean.Also, Sangy is an outlier even for a Mk III S and is one of or even is the finest mortal warrior ever to exist, so most GK or Custodes aren’t going to be getting close to what he was.

(Contrast that with canon Sangy, who single handedly held the Eternity Gate against like half the World Eaters legion and countless daemons and then soloed 2 Greater Daemons. Heck, canon Sangy could probably have soloed the Siege of the Imperial Palace in this AU up to the Beast)

As for the Arik Taranis, Lord-Commander of the Custodes, he didn’t get a whole lot of detail since I really didn’t feel like writing another fight scene. He had help from the Custodes and Blood Angels around him in that fight, and overall he’s probably very close to Sangy’s power level, since he’s a stand in for Constantin Valdor who was a massive badass in canon and the only non-primarch to beat a primarch in sparring (the name Arik Taranis came from Primarchfag’s Russ fluff).

>>51763823
(cont)

>>51761297
>>51761386
>>51761698
Not sure why people are assuming Space Marines are aligned to Honorable Stupid or wouldn't know how to counter when tactics are used against them. The training process is still the same as canon, so this means 50+ years as a scout marine before even earning power armor, then tours as a devastator and assault marine before becoming a tactical marine, then another 50-100 years before making sergeant. A standard Fallen tactical marine has seen most of the nastiness the galaxy has to offer, and has probably been fighting twice as long as an average sister as been alive.

I think there's also a massive underestimation of the Space Marine's raw physical advantage (ignore video game and other visual depictions, which are usually not faithful to lore). Using Spartans as our stand in again for Sisters, Kelly, the fastest Spartan, sprints at 40 mph, while Space Marines are shown to comfortable march at that speed for miles. In terms of reflexes and agility, there's an instance of an SM who reacts to and slaps a bolt round out of the air (though it explodes and rips off his hand). SMs are straight up much faster than Sisters in and out of armor, especially since Power Armor actually speeds up and strengthens an SM due to the Black Carapace, where as human Power Armor is neutral at best for the Sisters. So in the scenario here >>51761698 the Sisters would not be able to dance around an SM effortlessly, it would be a knife-edge melee with a 50% chance of going either way, and even if the Sisters win there's probably only going to be 1 very wounded survivor.

Again, NOT saying that SMs are invincible. In our AU the Sisters definitely hunt them and beat them. It's just really bloody and scary as shit.

>>51763823
Khanfag here. A while back, I had an idea of what to do for Arik Taranis. I was going to post it about the same time as I did the Jenetia Krole stuff, but I wanted to wait until it was okay to post fresh stuff again.

Needless to say Sangyfag's right. Taranis would have been close to Sangy's power level, and had a shitload of help. Also Kairos Fateweaver is not the same level of close combat threat as Ka'bandha

>>51764045
I think the implication is that the Sisters are mostly going after warband renegades and solo defectees. Something like a War of the Beast-era Fallen warband (or even chapter-strength party) is going to rip apart even most Astartes chapters, especially given how freely the Ruinous Powers give magical steroids to their favorite beatsticks.

>>51763331
I kept thinking Imperial Army.

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>>51763049
What in the warp did you just say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I was named the top mortal psyker of the entire Imperium, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on the Ruinous Powers, and I have over 30,000 confirmed banishments. I am trained in warp warfare and I don’t even need a gene-seed to kick your ass. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on Old Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me through the astropath network? Think again, you brat. As we speak I am contacting my contacts in the Alpha Legion and your psychic signature is being traced right now so you better prepare for the Warp storm, sonny. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my brain. Not only am I extensively trained in psychic combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Grey Knights and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the galaxy, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit warpfire all over you and you will drown in it. You are nothing to me but just another pretentious, know-nothing imbecile. Respect your fucking elders.

>>51764045
Now, I'm not saying you're wrong, but this assuming a more or less standup fight between a Fallen and standard sisters. If a Hunter squad gets into a situation where the target can use his advantages, they fucked up, with consequences in line with what you said.
SMs use very good battlefield tactics. Hunters operate more like assassins. They are the very best the Sisters can bring to bear, and a Hunter Sister can expect a short lifespan, and if she lives long, she can never again expect a normal life thanks to the additional augmentations she's probably received.
As well, Space Marines train to defeat a wide variety of enemies, while Hunters train in depth against a single type of enemy. This shows.
Now, against an actual warband, you're going to have a lot of hunter squads playing second seat to Marines called in to be the primary fighting force, because the force multiplication of having more than two or three Fallen working together (faced by 20-30 Hunters) means that they need their own force multiplier.
Under actual battlefield conditions, where the Hunters cannot bring their training and tactics to bear, you call in the Astartes, not the Sororitas. The Hunters will still tag alongf, since the Astartes recognize their abilities, and its a good training opportunity, but again they'll be second seat to the Marines combat performance.

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>>51764627
Oh, for fucks sakes, Magnus. Keep your ego in check. I wish they wouldn't keep worshipping me, but look at well they took to Oscar telling them to not worship him!

>>51764263
That sounds excellent, post that ish

>>51764712
Not at all, I don't mind if someone thinks I'm wrong or full of it if they have good reason. I actually agree with your assessment of their advantages and disadvantages and suggested the Sisters would stay at range and use ambush tactics, I was more responding to the poster who suggested the Sisters would waltz in and defeat a Fallen in melee range, which is really the worst possible situation for them to be in.

>>51764627
I like to imagine that junior techpriests shitpost the Grey Knight copypasta on their internal Mechanicus communication networks.

>>51765531
You looking for the drawfag thread, friend.
This! Is! NOBLEDARK!
(Space Marine kicking you off ship through the hull optional)

>>51746903
>>51745479

"Funeral dirges are only played for heroes who have already died, Chapter Master Dubaku. Hold tight Astartes, a Battle Barge with our finest apothecaries shall be at your location shortly."
- Chapter Master Grimaldus of the Black Templars, upon hearing the request for last rights from Chapter Master Ekene Dubaku

>>51765107
In a situation filled with cover, hot smoke hgrenades, and noise grenades, with a target that ran out of ammo and isn't thinking clearly, five or six sisters might be able to play whack a grox well enough for a sister to slap a melta bomb on the target.
Might. They are the grox in this festival game analogy after all.

>>51765598
I know, to which I deleted the post, my bad, so I'm sorry thread.

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Late Valentine's Day related post...

How does this more civilized and less Grimderp AU celebrate Valentine's or any similar holiday???

>>51766004
I dunno. I was thinking of fluff that had it as being by the Warlord honoring the request of a bakers daughter.

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>>51766004
Maybe within Segmentum Solar but doubtful outside of it, other than that pocket of worlds the share similar cultures have bastardized versions of it.

>>51763066
The first rule of IA is don't talk about IA.
The second rule of IA is don't talk about IA.

>>51765801
Shit's getting real.

On a related note would they join the Templars movement after that?

>>51766004
What is with this pic of Markiplier with an elf, or eldar?

>>51767289
>That image
>"Is that Markiplier?"
Every time until we drive it into the ground.

>>51767568
Feels fairly subterranean to me already.

Excerpt from shooting script for ASPECTS OF STEEL V: SUDDEN BLOOD
END SCENE
157TH FLOOR OF SEPARATIST HEADQUARTERS, MISTROS HIVE
[Yakov, Loriel, and Katana have HAITH, SEPARATIST LEADER, cornered in his office. Pan up from his head to show HEROES standing in the wall where the door was, guns pointed at HAITH. Over shoulder shot from Yakov's perspective to show HAITH and AWESOME SCENIC VIEW. Showcase EXPLOSIONS on nearby spires. HAITH opens mouth to speak]
HAITH: You...
[Interrupting] YAKOV: No, you.
YAKOV pulls pack of lho sticks from his combat harness with one hand
YAKOV: Do you play roleplaying games?
DELICATLY pulls lho stick from pack, brings it up to mouth, SLOWLY
YAKOV: I do. I love em.
LHO STICK in mouth, KATAN offers pilot light of her flamer to him. Doesn't take it YET
YAKOV: There's a great theory, a two axis philosophy of game worlds.
TAKES the flamer, lights his smoke, hands it back. INHALES, EXHALES
YAKOV: On one, the Individual. On the other, the World.
YAKOV takes ONE step foreward
[exasperated] LORIEL: Not this shit again
YAKOV: Grim and Noble, how much impact a person can have.
LOOKS at lho stick, another step. He's closer, halfway there
YAKOV: Dark and Bright, how shitty the world is.
LOOKS AT HAITH. CLOSE SHOT ON HIS EYES
YAKOV: Your kind would have us live as Grim and Dark, where nobody can impact a shitty universe and only the Ruinous powers win.
YAKOV SHRUGS, another INHALE, EXHALE on the Lho Stick
YAKOV: But you don't see reality. Let me educate you on our Imperium.
YAKOV LEAPS FORWARD
YAKOV: THIS!
INTERNAL SHOT, SLOW MO, OF ARMOR SERVOS
YAKOV: IS!
SLOW MO YAKOV THROWS A KICK, SHOW IMPACT ON GROIN, HAITH'S PAIN. IT'S AGONY. A FUCKING MARINE IN ARMOR JUST WRECKED HIS GROIN.

>>51768004 (cont.)
HAITH FLIES BACKWARDS TO WINDOW
EXTERNAL SHOT, WINDOW. IT SHATTERS UNDER HAITH, HE'S FLYING BACKWARDS, DROPPING OUT OF SHOT
WE SEE YAKOV, GRIN ON FACE, LHO STICK HELD LIKE A MIDDLE FINGER
YAKOV; NOBLEDARK!
YAKOV LEANS OUT of broken window, focuses on HAITH, falling
YAKOV: Dawn is coming, fucker! But your kind won't be around to see it!
LOOKS at LHO STICK. Shrugs, takes one last drag
YAKOV: Dramatic moment over.
DROPS LHO STICK OUT WINDOW, comes back inside, looks at LORIEL and KATANA, THEIR FACES IN SHOCK. HE JUST KICKED A GUY OUT OF THE WINDOW.
KATANA: Mouthwash?
Roll Initial Credits
MID CREDITS SCENE
GROUND LEVEL OF HIVE MISTROS, A BUSY STREET. FOCUS SHOT, ARBITES PATROL CAR, EMPTY
The TWO local Arbites are at a food truck. It promises MEATY BREAD (whatever that is)
(PRODUCTION CREW NOTE: It's fucking delicious, is what it is)
Arbiter 1: Thank you. Keep the change, and tell us if those gangs bother you again.
TURNS BACK to CAR, MEATY BREAD IN HAND, sees HAITH plummet into hood
DISCRETION SHOT, BLOOD ON ARBITES FACE. SHOW REACTIONS OF HORROR. MEATY BREAD IS DROPPED.
Arbiter 1: I just got driving privileges back...
Arbiter 2: Didn't the briefing say Special Sergeant Yakov was on-planet?
Arbiter 1: FUUUUUCK!
SHOWCASE PILE OF BLOODY PULP ON WRECKED HOOD, SIDEWALK, PEOPLE, BUILDINGS. A single, half-smoked lho stick FALLS INTO PILE, goes OUT.
Roll full credits.

>>51767568
In one hand the pic that guy's talking about does have LIVVI looking like markiplier.

On the other hand, he is probably stupid since OTHER people already pointed it out to him.

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bumping image of soldiers that can be guardsmen

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>>51769395
Another one, this time of futuristic cops that can be Arbites.

>>51769395
>No big shoulder pads
What a shitty regiment!

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>>51769457

>>51766429
>https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Nobledark_Imperium
D'awwwwww

Would the Men of Iron and Artificial Intelligence still be banned in this universe? Maybe the Imperium and the Eldar can create some sort of pshychic firewall, to avoid Chaos brainwashing the machines?

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>>51769915
They probably could do that, so things like a cogitator running a Forge world rebelling doesn't happen. There is one case of a toy AI becoming a planet's governor to keep the hunmans on that world from dying. The AdMach wanted to kill the AI when they found that world during the Great Crusade but that AI dying would mean the entire world's population would also die, as the people had become too dependent on the AI planning out their economy. Oscar intervened and said "Maintain the status-quo and don't allow the AI to spread beyond this planet" to prevent the AdMach from killing billions.

In this Imperium you might have AI who run very specific task or specialized parts of an industry on a world but nothing better than that. AI would never be given access to weapons or combat vehicles, heck might not even be allowed to work for the military sector. Anything smarter than a collectivist offic clerks AI gets a very violent ban from the AdMach and if the AdMach can't get violent, they just pack up their shit to leave taking along with them all AdMach technology.

>>51769915
Men of Iron and A.I. are the one thing everyone agrees not to mess with in this universe. It's probably the biggest "unreasonable" thing the Imperium does, but from their perspective it makes sense. They don't know the Men of Iron got corrupted by Chaos, or if the Tau's did as well. To them A.I. is just too dangerous to mess with.

That said, there are...exceptions. There's the children's toy A.I. that survived and protected its people and was pardoned by being considered a machine spirit (though the difference is academic). Oscar considers himself an A.I. (I think), but the truth is more complicated. There was mention of a few Men of Iron who fought on behalf of humanity. The Tau probably have their dumber drones still around, and I had been kicking around the idea that a very small number of their earlier, more resilient human-level A.I. sided with the Tau and are retained as advisors (but can wield no power) in Tau government. The AdMech has officially declared them machine spirits sent by the Omnissiah to save the Tau from their sinful ways.

Then there are the Arc Mechanici. If we're going by canon, the Arc Mechanici are A.I., they're just being real quiet about it to avoid getting lumped in with the crazy A.I. and gettig killed. The Arc Mechanici are unnerving. People who see them can't help but describe them moving as if they are alive, even compared to other ships. They react to orders milliseconds faster than they should be able to. Being on an Arc Mechanicus gives you the feeling like you're occasionally being watched, even though there is no one there.

>>51761145
This, this, one thousand times this and to a lesser extent, >>51762144 and >>51764045
.

Sisters should be ambush hunters primarily going after rogue marines, very rarely going for Fallen (since the power level with chaos juice involved is fucking ridiculous). Regular power armour without Black Carapace is probably more of an agility penalty than anything else, although Sisters still stay pretty far above unaugmented humans, a la
>Sisters are blindfolded knife throwers, Marines are blindfolded knife catchers

As for straight-up fighting, editfag got it nailed down imho:
>try to kill them before you know you're there
>if not, then try to kill them before they have time to react, but good luck
>if not, try to kill them in open combat, and say your fucking prayers

...especially about how even with meltas, jammers and other fancy gadgets, actually having to use them in any combat that isn't a one-sided ambush is nothing short of a hail mary

>>51771347
They would also be set out on other assignments. They downshift besides Space Marine slaying.

>>51771617
Of course - I'm still wanting them to be originating with Securitas and eventually being muscle for the Inquisition overall, it's just that the discussion was about how they'd fare fighting mehreens

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>>51769915
>>51770148
>>51770286
If we’re talking A.I. (though obviously not friendly ones in this case) there’s also Castigator to worry about. According to the fluff, Castigator was the original Titan, looking like a cross between Gort from The Day the Earth Stood Still, a geth, and an Attack on Titan titan. Supposedly, when the Mechanicus first invented the modern Titan designs during the Martian Civil Wars, they based them on what little information and half-remembered data they had on Castigator. I don’t recall the specifics, but Castigator apparently does not like humanity for abandoning it for some reason, and was advanced enough that its A.I. was able to make a pact with the Chaos Gods.

In fact, Castigator might make for another good major material champion of the Chaos Gods. A Dark Age of Technology artifact gone rogue who desires nothing more than revenge on humanity for what they did to the Men of Iron during the Age of Strife (though with a rather limited and biased knowledge of the whole thing, either not knowing or being so far gone it doesn’t know the Iron Men struck first).

>>51771617
>>51771928

Yeah, Sisters are probably fighting lower-power enemies in most cases, in which case they're the OPplznerf augmented humans.

In straight up combat, a unit of Sisters does to a unit of IG what a unit of Space Marines does to a unit of Sisters.

>>51770148
>>51770286
It helps that the A.I. was the DaoT equivalent of a Tickle Me Elmo and couldn't propagate itself because of ancient copyright law.

Also Emperor's intellect could be argued as being completely natural because he was completely blank when they fished him out of the tube, even if he was an artificial person or person like construct.

Also it's not probable that the knowledge of the surviving A.I. is widespread.

>>51772525
The issue is not whether or not Oscar is an artificial being, but whether or not he thinks he is. Oscar (and the Illuminati) thinks of himself as a person-shaped robot. The Imperium (or at least those who know the truth about Oscar's origins) think he's just a human being genetically engineered to be a superpsyker with a stranger than average "birth". Both are right in some ways, and both are wrong in some ways.

So what's happening with the Fulgrim fluff?

I made some claim to want to do the Dorn Fluff some considerable time ago but given how the two are so close I kind of need FulgrimFag to actually finish his shit so as not to contradict his stuff or to have my stuff contradicted.

If he isn't coming back I'm going to redo Fulgrim from the start unless there are objections because the half finished yarn is nagging at me.

Then I shall start Dorn.

>>51773930
Yeah, at this point I think his claim to Fulgrim is null and void, go ahead with either because fresh OC is always welcome.

<spoiler>His take on Fulgrim kinda made me scratch my head anyway</spoiler>

>>51773988
Damn I just remembered spoiler are supposed to use brackets

>>51765107

Okay, I am just putting my draft notes here for now, since I am still working on converting it into prose. I got the concept for Taranis when I was looking through the fluff and I noticed we had him in Leman’s fluff involved in something called the Last Stand of Thunder. Was curious about how that could be, as Angron was supposed to be the last of the early generation Thunder Warriors and spent the WotB coughing up organs from his hospital bed, and late generation Thunder Warriors like Perturabo and Mortarion were active well after the WotB. So I did some digging and came up with an explanation.

This is what is known of Arik Taranis in canon
- Leader of the Thunder Warriors
- Held no grudge against the Emperor for destroying the Thunder Warriors
- Actually pretty damn smart for someone who is supposed to be a Thunder Warrior, knew more about genetics than the average Terran citizen and was able to figure out how to implant Astartes gene-seed into himself to stabilize Thunder Warrior degradations.

And what we have about him in the actual fluff is as follows
- Mentioned in Leman Russ' fluff as having taken part in the Last Stand of Thunder, implying he is or was a Thunder Warrior
- Mentioned in Sangy's fluff to be Lord Commander of the Custodes

So given that, this is my concept for Taranis given what we have while still being faithful to his overall character and themes of his story.

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>>51774373
Arik Taranis was from Terrawatt, so he actually knew the Warlord back when the Warlord was just Oscar. Like most of Terrawatt, Taranis was tech savvy, one of the better geneticists, actually helped Warlord design the first model of Thunder Warrior augmentations.

And then used them on himself. Warlord said no, the design was untested and Arik was worth more for his brain than as a super-soldier. Arik rebutted that Oscar needed someone he knew to be capable leading the Thunder Warriors, and Arik was one of the few who fit the bill.

Proved to be unfailingly loyal to Warlord and his ideals of unification. However, had a bad habit of going behind the Warlord's back since he saw Warlord more as equal than messianic leader due to their shared history.

Acted as Warlord's personal bodyguard before Custodes (which did not come about until Mark III geneseed was invented near end of Unification).

One of the longer lasting early Thunder Warriors, partly because he knew how his augmentations worked (and therefore how to keep them working) and partly because he did a whole bunch of experimental add-ons to make him more stable behind Oscar's back (some of which later floated down to the later super-soldier designs).

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>>51774385
Body crapped out just before Unification, Oscar told him he needed to stop pushing himself before he got himself killed and put him to work helping to rebuilding Old Earth with the other scientists ("your brain is worth more than your brawn" again). Contributed to final smoothing out of gene-seed. Figures out a way to replace his kitbashed Thunder Warrior augments with the Mark III S geneseed.

Imbackbaby.jpeg

Despite his turnaround in health, Steward assigns him to guard Old Earth and tells him to keep doing what he’s doing, in part for his own safety and in part because the Steward doesn’t believe he is as nearly as stable as he claims he is. Becomes the first of the Custodes, and passes down his skills on to the first generation of Custodians, including Constantin Valdor, his (eventual) successor.

Then WotB.

Taranis realizes that Earth is going to be in big trouble if the Beast hits Earth before all the legions can get back to it. Called up every retired Thunder Warrior on Old Earth that could still fight (all late stage) to fortify the Imperial Palace in anticipation of the hordes of the Beast. Although most are too broken to be on active duty they feel like they still have one fight left in them. Therefore "Last Stand of Thunder".

Dies spitting defiance into the face of the Beast and his nobs, even though he doesn’t manage to do any lasting harm to the Beast.

>>51774392
There's more, but it's mostly just what Taranis was like and why he did what he did. I tend to gravitate towards character studies, it seems.

>>51773988
Okay.

It will be tomorrow afternoon. It's late but tomorrow is only half day of work.

If FulgrimFag is still out there I mean no offense but I won't apologize.

>>51772961
Random idea: one of the "fan theories" as to Oscar's origin is that of vanilla Emps (i.e. shaman suicide, lurking in the shadows, etc).
Thoughts? Just seemed like a comfy thing that would be good to drop in somewhere.

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>>51774373
>Held no grudge against the Emperor for destroying the Thunder Warriors

Isn't this implied to be pretty universal amongst the Thunder Warriors, Ghota didn't seem bothered either, and the descriptions of them state they're basically emotionless kill-bots, they never fought with the passion or brotherhood of the Astartes, they just ripped men to pieces in the most clinically efficient way possible.

So they don't feel betrayed because they don't feel anything. Possibly the same thing that gives them their immunity to psyker mind-reading, given the warp's connection to emotion.

>>51774481
Lexicanum, the 40kwiki, and 1d4chan all mention Taranis' lack of grudge against the Emperor like it was a notable thing. Ghota seemed more concerned with not dying than what got him in that situation. *shrugs*

The Thunder Warriors were said to have a lot of mental problems in vanilla. And here they definitely aren't emotionless kill-bots, seeing as Angron, Perty, and Morty were ones and they all were pretty damn emotional.

>>51774373
>>51774385
>>51774392
Oh shit, I had no idea Taranis was an actual character in canon, I just assumed it was a cool name Primarchfag made up and wanted to turn it into an actual character.

This is slightly problematic since it raises the question that if one guy could be upgraded to a higher level of augments in his adulthood, why not do it for everyone like poor old Angron? I suppose Taranis could have been a one in a million exception because of some quirk of biology, but that seems a little too convenient.

Do I just go to the Sangy fluff and ctrl-f all instances of Arik Taranis into Constantin Valdor?

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>>51774481
In this AU the TW Pension plan was an actual pension rather than a firing squad.

All those that had served and given themselves to be mutilated in the name of a better future were given an option;

1. An apartment in the city of their choice (excluding anywhere in Hy Brasil), free healthcare and a monthly payout from this day forth until their life has ended.

2. Sign on as training staff for the new Astartes recruits because we need someone to teach these kids how it's done.

3. Sign on as a Super Soldier of the Legions and serve alongside the new breed of super soldier because teaching isn't for everyone but these kids will need someone to show them how it's done in the field.

>>51774392
According to the Russ fluff it's "Last Roll of Thunder".

It's probable that the old TW's on Old Earth would have joined the PDF for something to do. Military life was all they had known, the sudden transition to civilian life would have been too much for them. Especially considering the fact that they need a heavy goods license to walk down the street.

If they were allowed to keep their M1 power armour and shitty old style bolter they would be the most badass part of any PDF that has ever existed.

The Beast makes it to Old Earth and Lightning Bearer Taranis is well rested and ready for round 2 and so are his surviving friends. He send out the call using the old command codes of the Unification Army to old friends and comrades and they congregate at the Imperial Palace. Or at least try to.

The Beast moved faster than they though it would have and they are caught half a nation out and the train has been derailed. Russ and his Dog Soldiers encounter them and offer them a lift as they are heading in that direction.

>>51774450
I'm still around, but really busy with classes. I grant my blessing, but hope you don't nullify my work.

>>51774859
Angron had already been upgraded. Taranis and Angron were both given the exact same upgrades. Any difference in the two's fighting ability would have been a result of the recruitment specimens bodies, damage sustained afterwards and availability and type of medical care.

>>51774881
Arik Taranis Extends the standard pole and unfurls the Banner of the Unification, a proud old flag that hasn't been brought to war in centuries. But for the ache in his back and the clicking of his knees it's like the old days all over again, a gallows humour Russ shares.

Make it to the Palace main gates just in time to be too late. Arik Taranis dies just soon enough to not have to watch Sangy die. Russ grabs the banner before it hits the ground and does get to watch Sangy get torn apart.

Fresh orks arrive and prevent Russ from following The Beast. Surviving aged Thunderers die in the meat grinder that follows.

Arik Taranis' body is laid to rest in a now forgotten graveyard of the old nation of Terrawatt.

>>51774859
This brings us to the biggest flaw of Taranis. HUBRIS. Taranis often overestimated himself. He had a flashy fighting style and liked to let his opponents know they were completely outclassed, though he dropped it if things got serious. He liked to show off in many ways. If wasn't so arrogant, he probably would have realized during the Unification Wars that having the personal bodyguard of the Warlord constantly muck around with his augments without anyone knowing was a bad thing.

When Taranis strapped himself to the operating table, he probably thought that if this worked, he could do the same to all the old Thunder Warriors, and it would be a medical miracle.

Taranis barely survived. The only reason he survived is because he had intimate enough knowledge of the augments to intervene when things went wrong, and he had kitbashed himself enough that the extra augments he had added kept him from dying.

It was bad enough that Taranis, who beforehand thought "of course this is going to work, my calculations are always right" changed his mind to "no one ever deserves having to go through this. Ever again". Given Taranis' personality, that was pretty bad.

On top of that, there's a good chance the Steward was right. Taranis probably wasn't as stable as someone who got the straight Mark III S geneseed.

>>51774881
>Last Roll of Thunder
Crap.

>>51771928
Well, guess what Ordo Sebastian Thor was part of?
Hint: its the biggest one and it clashes with the Arbites all the time. He just didn't touch the Cohort Religio, since that would've violated his oath of service to the Imperium, and his technically-legal faith.
"Why do I worship you? Because I find you worthy of my veneration, and not even you, my God and Emperor, can take that choice from me." - Inquisitor Sebastian Thor
By the entire CSE/COL conflict of the Great Civil War/Age of Apostasy? I pulled that right from vanilla, down to the CSE hunting down COL members and pulling a double Torquemada on them, their family, and their planet.
CSE was fucked up even for vanilla.

>>51775324
All the religious stuff I neither understand nor see how it fits into the actual setting. I honestly found the CSE/COL conflict to be little more than an attempt to go "oh yeah Vandires cool but LOOK SOME MORE INTERESTING STUFF", although I apologize for having originally assumed it to be super forced donut steel. Still, not a fan I'm afraid.

>>51775324
Wait, I thought the Securitas were not founded until after the Age of Apostasy, after it became clear that there needed to be more oversight over the inner workings of the Imperium to keep another Vandire from happening.

>"Why do I worship you? Because I find you worthy of my veneration, and not even you, my God and Emperor, can take that choice from me." - Inquisitor Sebastian Thor

If Thor said that there's no way Oscar would have trusted him as much as he did. Not even to the point of suggesting Thor be Emperor instead of him, because in that case Thor would just look to his "god" (Oscar) for cues all the time.

>>51775645
Yeah going to have to go with this anon on this one. Oscars long term goal for the Imperium is to make himself obsolete. He isn't going to suggest someone for the Throne if they bend too easily at the knee.

>>51775530
One of the deep pieces of fluff that drew me in was the background conflicts between the various Imperial Cults. I feel that it brings something very notable of vanilla to this au.
>>51775645
Doh, I keep forgetting. We should figure out which Ordo Thor was part of.
And the quote was supposed to be after Oscar became emperor and discovered Thor's faith. I fucked up on that.
Keep in mind, Thor did (quietly) preach a variant of the COL that had Oscar as holding the Mantle of The God Of Man, so he technically worshipped Oscar as a prophet/saint figure.
Oscar was still not amused, but the fact that Thor would not change his faith for even his god and temporal ruler does not mean he would "bend too easily at the knee".

so, having cults of Oscar makes sense in-setting. Think about it: Immortal, the last remnant of humanity's peak, unified the homeland, unified a great empire, and an all around great guy that believes in the power of ordinary people.
Damn near every religion would put him in a position of veneration, if not outright godhood. The fact that there are so few cults of him, with the rest being literally individual congregations of already existing religions hit with modified theology, is a fucking miracle.

>>51776321
It probably helps that he has the ability to turn up in person and tell them to knock that shit off. Like seriously. No I'm not being modest, fucking stop it it's annoying as all fuck. Don't make me have to start knocking heads together. Fine, I'll accept a sainthood. Prophet status under protest so long as it sticks at veneration and doesn't start at worship.

>>51774881
>>51775017
No, I meant that if Taranis was a Thunder Warrior and got upgraded to Mk III S, why wouldn't all the Primarchs get upgraded? Khanfag provides an explanation here>>51775196 but again, it seems a little convenient to me. Once you start bending a universe's internal logic to opens the door to inconsistency.

Also, Taranis was present at the Imperial Palace at the start of the siege with the rest of the Custodes, he notably kills a major Warboss on the first day and a greater daemon on the third day. I understand if you had a different idea for how he would work and if I sorta just hijacked the character, so that's why I suggested changing the Lord Commander of the Custodes to Constantin Valdor and letting Taranis be his own character.

>>51776375
Yep, but then there's the stubborn ones.
"No great man recognizes his worthiness until after the fact", stuff like that.
More later, gotta go.

>>51776568
How the Imperial Truth became the Imperial Creed.
https://youtu.be/9czBBKof7Yo

>>51774956
I'll try.

>>51776432
To be honest, my original concept was that Taranis never got upgraded, heard about WotB, went “I’m getting to old for this shit” and did the Last Roll of Thunder. Then I found out he was in Sanguinius’ entry and went “oh shit”. But then I thought about it and realized it did make some degree of sense. If Arik was always willing to muck about with his augments and he saw the Mark III S gene-seed as a way to fix the old ones, why wouldn’t he try to upgrade himself, despite the risks?

The other thing is that if Arik was an early Thunder Warrior it doesn’t make sense for him to even be in fighting condition by the time of the WotB in the first place. The only other early TW alive at the time was Angron, who was on his deathbed despite state-of-the-art medical care. If Arik survives to the WotB it kind of takes away from Angron being the last early TW, especially since it had been implied Angron lasted as long as he did because he was just too stubborn to die.

It also mirrors canon in a way, where Arik was able to shove a gene-seed in himself and have it work despite being a TW.

>>51777672
My thought was that Arik basically had the best chance of surviving the upgrade, and nearly died anyway.
1) Was from Terrawatt, where the original Thunder Warrior augments were designed, and Terrawatt genomic data was probably used as the base for any genetic therapies so maximum compatibility
2) Helped design the thing, so he had a bit better understanding of how it worked
3) Taken much better care of his body than Angron had, and had not been a pit fighter for a living beforehand
4) Been tweaking his augmentations constantly and adding new things for years without people noticing. He probably had like half a gene-seed in him already.
5) Was involved on the conferences on the Mark III, though his contributions were much less than one might think

It also gives a bit more character to the founder of the Custodes. Arik is not just the guy who guards the Warlord, he’s also the guy who despite being devoted to his cause is willing to tell him things he needs to but doesn’t want to hear. Anyone else the personal relationship is too one-sided. In a dispute between Oscar and Malcador, Oscar will always back down because he sees Malcador as a father figure. In a dispute between Oscar and anyone else, Oscar comes out on top because of how people see him. Taranis is in a position where he’s willing to talk back to Oscar, but in the end knows his place on the food chain and has only Oscar’s best interests in mind (which is both a pro and a con). Valdor doesn't have the background to do the same.

However, I see the point about inconsistency. I realize this is not one of my better ideas. Was not trying to create a donut steel.

>>51776031
>>51776321
Cults of Oscar (and shadow wars between them) make sense in setting and sound like a great idea, the problem is once Oscar becomes aware of them they stop being in the shadows. Then there are problems.

If Thor's beliefs became widely known, not only would you have problems with Oscar but you would get people accusing Oscar of favoritism and hypocrisy (by appointing someone who outright worships him to a high office).

Also, wasn't Thor from the seat-warmer side of the equation?

>>51777690
>4) Been tweaking his augmentations constantly and adding new things for years without people noticing. He probably had like half a gene-seed in him already.

Honestly I'd just leave it as that.

Due to his genius he spent the time tweaking his shit to not break down as quickly. To an extent it was copied in other surviving TWs, Angron included, but the whole lot of them were such a mismatch of conflicting butchery and patch jobs that it never worked on any of them as well as it did on himself.

Also nowhere does it say that you have to be Mk3 S to be a Custodeus. They all new because that shit is measurably superior to everything else as a finished product but back in the old day there was only basic soldiery and TWs. First bodyguards would have to have been made up of one these. As better shit got made and the older ones died off or retired they would be phased out and replaced one at a time.

Without the great distinction between breeds of Super Soldier, and indeed the older variety being tasked with the shaping of the next variety, TWs would probably not have felt that the Astartes were anything but more of themselves. If anything there would have been more of a distinction between nation in the early days and Legion in later days than there would have been between what sort of hardware they jammed in you.

>>51777816
I like the idea of Thor being a Katholian.

"Thor, you really do remind me of Lorgar sometimes".

>>51777859
>Also nowhere does it say that you have to be Mk3 S to be a Custodeus

You know what, maybe that's why Oscar told Arik to stay on Earth. Arik keeps saying he's fine, but Oscar looks at the other Thunder Warriors in the same generation as him and notices that all the others are either dying or in the ground and thinks he's BS-ing him.

Makes more sense than trying to go whole hog with the Mark III S. Thought Mark III S was required for Custodes especially since Taranis apparently wins against Fateweaver.

Perhaps Arik played amateur Frankenstein on himself so much he really defied easy classification (thereby securing Angron the last early Thunder Warrior). He managed to modify his system to the point where physically he was slightly stronger than a Mark I, but weaker than a Mark III S (so that he could train the actual Mark III S Custodes without being roflstomped), but at the same time missing a whole bunch of organs that even a Mark I would have. Because of his increasingly mismatched physiology and the fact that only Arik knew how to take care of Arik, he increasingly became a liability on the field. At some point Oscar caught on and benched his ass to Old Earth. Or perhaps this is too much?

>>51777690
>>51777859
>>51778302
Yeah, I think that makes sense. Just to clarify, Taranis beats Zarakynel, a Keeper of Secrets so arguable a better fighter than a Lord of Change (since I think it goes Bloodthirster>Great Unclean One=Keeper of Secrets>Lord of Change). If Taranis' power is only around a Mk II or III MP then it's a pretty significant nerf from Mk III S even if he's super skilled.

It does still raise the issue of reconciling the Sangy fluff where Taranis is at the Eternity Gate from the start with the events here >>51775017 (which I assume is from Primarchfag) where Taranis is part of Russ and Lorgar's reinforcements. If we're sticking with Taranis as Lord Commander of the Custodes, it makes more sense for him to be there from the beginning, but Primarchfag used the character first so I'll defer to him.

>>51778980
Not primarchfag but there's a simple answer. Taranis is stuck at the palace because it's part of his job. He just sends out the call from there to the old TWs to come to the palace for reinforcement. Unfortunately Orks are faster.

>>51777816
Thor was more or less a seat warmer style Oscar worshipper. When his beliefs became public, he publicly repainted them as a philosophy of "he's a great guy, and we should strive to be like him", and retired to the Arbites. Remember, many branches of the COL are technically legal (Oscar is a prophet of what mankind's greater nature can be), and many hide as Isha cults (since the COL incorporates her into their liturgy, while the CSE does not). And when I say " technically legal", I mean the most common judgement is "you have violated the spirit of the law, and argue that only the letter counts. Down that way lies madness and the legalization of criminal activity. Violating the spirit of the law is as illegal as violating the letter of it, and for this you are pronounced guilty."
The problem with Oscar clamping down on his worship is many of the cults hide in the same manner as chaos cults (leading to many being corrupted, or being raided by the Ordo Malleus), so its a huge investigative effort justified solely by law and the danger the CSE presents to the Imperium. And his dislike of people worshipping him leads to many conspiracy theories (like his being the fifth ruinous power, my personal theory for the vanilla emperor)
>>51777889
The CSE and COL are semi-Katholian, but the COL is loosely organized (think Protestant vs Catholic style organization). Katholian congregations are the most likely to fall into worshipping Oscar.

>>51779871
>implying the vanilla Emperor isn't Malal

Look at the facts. Malal hates Chaos, Emps hates Chaos. Malal's followers fight each other all the time, Emps followers fight all the time.

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>>51779871
I like how vanilla Emperor is
>Religion, not even once kids!
Changes to Oscar who is more soft
>Religion is bad m'kay.
Knowing trying to stomp out all religions in a galactic wide empire is almost impossible.

>>51780687
That, and if he outlaws religion entirely, it goes underground and then turns into chaos cults.
Chaos is bad, m'kay. It makes you do horrible stuff, like uh... Like, make you snort warp crystals off a six boobed hookers back, m'kay, while, while she sucks you off while calling on Slaanesh to make you really hung, m'kay? And that's bad, m'kay. That's horrible and bad, m'kay? Chaos is bad. So, don't worship Chaos, m'kay? And then you won't get your soul warped into an orgy started, because that's bad, m'kay.
You got that, Astartes? M'kay.

>>51781349
>>51780687
I don't think that he went even that far. So long as it's not Chaos and it's not him he doesn't care at all.

>>51782594
That's a very Roman take on it, which I like.

>>51782611
Well, except that the Romans started emperor cults all the time.

>>51782611
>>51782626
Then it's a very Persian or Mongol take on it.

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>>51782594
I always thought Oscar tried to ban religion at first because Chaos and being a threat to humanity as a whole, until he just gave up on it later. Switching to just banning Chaos worship with extreme prejudice and no militarized religious organizations, to prevent religions from radicalization then fall to Chaos. Technically, there should still be a religious ban in the Imperium or religions are generally frowned upon. Nobody actually enforce said ban so there's that.

>>51782777
That's never been stated or so far as I know even implied. Vulkan is the head of a religious organization and Lorgar was an ordained priest. They were both made Primarch.

The Imperium does not care. It's always been benevolence through indifference.

>>51782777
There is no ban, other than "no chaos, no me. If you want to put me in as a minor saint, go ahead. Prophet? Please write a 500,000 religious essay detailing all theological reasons for doing so, then spend three centuries filling out the paperwork to request permission to use my name, image, identity, and history in a religious service. I'll get back to you in a few millennia."
Not that anybody fills out the paperwork, but at least it might have dissuaded a few people from trying...

Bufmp

>>51778302
Arik Taranis, very much a self made man.

I swear I am working on the Fulgrim stuff. Just need a bit moar tiem.

Also has this thread been archived?

>>51788293
looking at the old threads, the previous main theme for him seems to be something to do with him being a transhumanist Great Gatsby.

>>51788959
I think he was more about self improvement than actual Horus/Mechanicum style transhumanism. Also in a lot of the older threads it seems Merika was Fallout's Enclave but on a grander scale with huge heapings of Manifest Destiny.

Not sure how easily Gatsby would fit in with a military dictatorship.

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>I apologize in advance. As always. Random Click Pics will accompany.

Fulgrim, Primarch of the third legion Empire’s Children, was born a subject of Merika in the days of the planned population growth program. His mother was a state sponsored surrogate and his father an anonymous but presumably loyal Merikan officers.

In truth this program and others were conceived and implemented as the early wars of unification rocked the Eurasian continent, if only to bolster the Merikan guard should another high-technological joust of nations commence. The President of that once great nation saw the conquests of the Warlord and in his hear was born a fire to emulate and surpass him. Merika, that ancient nation, had a mere fifty years previous been a power superior to all but Ursh itself and although it had not diminished it had not grown as the newborn Imperium had.

President Adon pushed for the implementation of policies of naked imperialism claiming it the right and destiny of Merika to once more stretch forth it’s hand and rule all it surveyed. It started with the expansion from the relatively prosperous eastern coastal cities where the military was at it’s strongest. It started first with the increased presence in the nebulous western border; towns that had been allowed a long and flexible leash found themselves in tighter shackles as fresh soldier were brought to bolster lax garrisons and bring the crushing rule of Law.

This was not seen as too threatening by any of the major players bar the Pan-Pacific Empire who had a few hidden holdings along the western coast in those days. Indeed it was a strictly internal affair and although a worrying one not one so worrying as other were doing.

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I don’t think that Merika was supposed to be precisely Enclave-like in terms of their philosophy (that is, they don’t think that everyone outside their borders is a filthy mutant that needs to die), but overall Merika as a whole is very Fallout like and they are very similar to the Enclave in many ways with their authoritarianism and jingoism. Almost like if pre-war American Fallout government rose in the Wasteland.

From what I remember from previous threads, Merika is a military junta with state-sponsored capitalism. They probably still claim to be democratic, though in reality it’s more of the “El Presidente has won re-election in a landslide for the twentieth time in a row” kind of “democracy”.

Merika claims to be much more unified than it actually is. They have control of the eastern two-thirds of the country and parts of the Pacific Coast, but there are numerous isolated conclaves and tribals, particularly in the Cascades and Rockies, that the Merikan military can’t touch due to inhospitable terrain and radioactive death zones. Fulgrim spent a lot of his time exploring this area for stuff.

Merika is actually supposed to have one of the higher standards of living in pre-Unification Earth, behind Hy Braseal, Terrawatt-Uralia, and probably Franj and Europia. That is, if you don’t mind living in a military junta. Their technology tends to be pretty good too. Of course, when you’re in the running against countries like Ursh and the PPE, it’s easy to come out in front. It’s also the reason why Warlord went after the explosively growing tumor of barbarism named Ursh first instead of going across the Atlantic and conquering Merika. Ironically Merika spends most of its time fighting the only country on Earth with higher living standards, better technology (except maybe Terrawatt or Orioc), and an actual democratic system: Hy Braseal.

>>51792331
Merikan military supposedly favors quality over quantity (which kind of explains Fulgrim). Smaller number of troops but higher quality. Also more coordinated than, say, Ursh, PPE, or Nord Afrik conclaves due to being a functioning nation at time of Unification. Turns ironic when Warlord turns out to be better at Merika’s specialty than Merika is.

Had a bad case of Manifest Destiny. Annexed their northern neighbor Calibi for some reason (which is kind of strange, as it is said Calibi required Merican imports to maintain a decent standard of living. Invaded first for mineral resources? Canada is kind of rich in that). Dorn was a military governor picked from the Calbi populace to keep Calbi under control. Started freaking out when Imperium started absorbing everyone before they could.

Warlord had planned to give Merika the Hy Braseal treatment either before or after Calbi was freed until Merika started trying to Manifest Destiny the Imperium. Covertly gave high-tech weapons and supplies to the Urshii insurgents in Sibar and trained insurgents and poisoned a few cities in the Imperium. War were declared. To paraphrase previous Anon “Merika tried to play the injured party against the Imperial Aggressor to the international community. Sadly the International community by that point consisted of the Imperium, some Urshii insurgents, Hy Brasil who didn't like them very much at all and weird but small exceptions like Saminanno and Litshtin (Lichtenstein) Mountain Fortress.”

All in all, there is one thing Merika excels at over any other pre-Unification nation-state: propaganda.

>>51792202
Wait a minute, what about Hy Braseal?

>>51789695
Not Fulgrimfag, but it did seem like Fulgrim's theme was more about self-improvement than Horus' "let humanity diversify and evolve". He was supposedly real big on Astartes being seen as real-life superheroes as opposed to super soldiers. He was also supposedly close to the Antarctic AdMech.

I'm not sure how the Gatsby/Spider Jerusalem thing is supposed to work, but my guess is that Fulgrim tried to gain respect and power through his military prowess and discoveries, only to find out that such things were fleeting when the government decides thinks you're getting too big for your britches. Rescued by Imperium, wages information war with help of Alpha Legion to get Merika to rise up on its own so it isn't burned down like Ursh and the PPE were. Between Fulgrim's rebels on one side and the Imperium coming down from the north, the Merican government folds.

Or I could be completely barking up the wrong tree.

>>51788293
Thread has not been archived.

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>>51792202
Then came the pushing back of the border. President Adon spun it as the reclaiming of lost territories, a mere rebuilding of land lost but unclaimed by civilized folk. This did not sit well at all with the “uncivilized” folk that had tended those river kingdoms and townships for generations. Did not sit well with them at all. But they were primitive. Civil but simple and they had not hope.

By this time Fulgrim had graduated the Officer School with outstanding grades and was seen as some sort of prodigy and held up as proof of the system.

It was the subjugation of these primitive beastly men or their extermination that Fulgrim was tasked with. He had proven an exceptionally able commander and schemer. No detail was too small, no problem too complex. He was the problem solver capable of doing a lot with a little. His forces were the grain of sand on the balanced scales, the grit in other people’s clockwork and the thin blade slipping between ribs. He drove his forces hard but himself harder and earned himself the rank of Colonel.

But for all that he was still very human.

His orders had not been kind, his mission was sold to the populace as one of bringing true civilization to the barbarians but this was a comforting lie. Nobody with a soul can watch the bodies of families, whole tribes, tipped unceremoniously into a mass grave and not feel something. Fulgrim definitely felt something. It was written by men in later and more reasonable times that Fulgrim was a man capable of great mirth and great melancholy. It was also said by the other Primarch who would one day know him that he could hold on to bitter and toxic hate and bury it down deep and hold it for years before expressing quite how upset he was. Fulgrim could smile and joke and dance with glee all smiles with nothing but pure poison beating in his heart waiting for the right time for catharsis and the art of getting even.

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>>51792734
Over the course of his career similar campaigns were being waged in the south and the north. Pocket kingdoms and micro-nations and little tribal alliances were being forced to either amalgamate, submit or flee. In the north there was nowhere left to run save for Ursh and the Nordyc, both of whom had often been no friend to the people of Calbi.

In the south there was Hy Brasil and although Hy Brasil had it’s problem and in the past had grown more than it’s share of mad bastards in the high office it wasn’t the ones marching on them with big heavy boot. Given the option of death and the subjugation under one of two forces the force that has been awful less recently will almost always win out. Hy Brasil’s northern boarder crept ever northwards in those days, all thanks to Merika.

It was during these campaigns that many of the Splice-Hippies were forced out of their mountain hideouts by Fulgrim’s ruthlessly efficient scouts, many finding their way into the Imperial Aegis and their expertise was invaluable in, among other things, the refinement of the Super Soldier projects.

Eventually the wretchedness of the whole war came to a head as Fulgrim reached the Pacific Ocean. His orders were to simply “do away with” the fishing villages for a nice quick victory. Before this point there had always been some means of interpreting orders to be less awful or at least some tiny indication that alternatives had been at least considered. It was the callousness that got to Fulgrim in the end.

Not long before this the Colonel orchestrating the subjugation of Calbi, his name now lost to the ages, had died of “suspicious” causes. It was later deemed suicide, although the question of how he managed to shoot himself in the back of the head whilst sitting at his desk was never given much of an answer beyond “he was VERY depressed”. The man that took over from him as colonel was Rogal Dorn.

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>>51793194

Dorn’s first act in his new position was to scour the ranks for those more loyal to Merika, and the monster it had become, than his righteous cause. The second thing was to declare independence and prepare for the storm.

Also during this time, unaware of the brewing dissatisfaction from it’s peripheral armies, a campaign of more subtle conquest against the Imperium. High tech weapons were supplied to the ailing Ursh to drag their war on, chemical and biological attacks occurred in several Imperial cities and resistance groups within conquered populaces were trained and supplied in the hopes of weakening and fracturing the Imperium from within.

This was the opportunity that Fulgrim had been waiting for. As the Imperium discovered the source of it’s maladies and prepared to open another war front in it’s Unification Fulgrim contacted the Warlord via his most trusted message runner and swore the loyalty of him and his men on the condition that Merika would rise again, as it should have been; a phoenix from the ashes, rather than a revenant from the grave of Old Night.

The Warlord did not trust Fulgrim much at all. He was a soldier of a hostile nation first and foremost and unlike Dorn had waited seemingly for the timing of personal gain rather than rebelling for some higher reason of moral integrity.

Caught between three armies Merika tried to call out to the international community for aid against these Imperial agressors, but by that time there were none left to hear it who were inclined or capable of heeding that call.

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>>51793194
>he was VERY depressed

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>>51793360
Merika was brought under the rule of the Imperium and to the surprise of the common man, who had heard nothing good from their previous lords concerning the Imperium, their was no campaign of ethnic or social cleansing, no mass slave pens and no rape gangs. If anything life seemed to be going on quite close to how it was in the days before the war. Those strange days had somewhat of a surreal feel to them and the artwork of the time reflected that. People expected a new darker age to start and it wasn't happening.

Fulgrim, in part due to the old regime suppressing much information about their turncoat favored child and in part due to his natural charisma and classical good looks, was still seen by the majority of citizens in a very favorable light. When it became known that he was now the supreme commander of all military matter in Merika, which as far as the people had ever known was basically all of the government.

For all his faults Fulgrim was oddly easy to get along with for all that he gave the impression of being a slightly too foppish. As Merika was rebuilt to something approaching it's former ancient majesty the last forces of Ursh and the Pan-Pacific Empire were swept aside. The Warlord named himself as Steward and constructed the Empty Throne in the refurbished Imperial Palace and Fulgrim with many other, the Steward included, stood before it and swore loyalty to the Imeprium.

For his skills and triumphs in Fulgrim was one of the twenty elevated to the rank of Primarch and all the responsibilities that it brought. The Galaxy was open to Fulgrim, child of Merika.

>And that's all you'r getting tonight. It's 1am and I can feel bit's of my brain shutting down.

>>51793685
>Fulgrim, in part due to the old regime suppressing much information about their turncoat favored child and in part due to his natural charisma and classical good looks, was still seen by the majority of citizens in a very favorable light. When it became known that he was now the supreme commander of all military matter in Merika, which as far as the people had ever known was basically all of the government.

It could even be that these events could lead to Fulgrim being seen in an even better light by the people of Merika. The propaganda could have been spun as Fulgrim being the one to stay the Warlord's heart and give Merika a second chance, leaving out the whole "turned on Merika" part. Fulgrim was good at nothing else if not propaganda

Also didn't Dorn and Fulgrim know each other to some degree?

The one thing that seems a little off is the description of Hy Braseal. Hy Braseal was supposed to be the least bad place to live before the Imperium, and was good enough to its people that the Warlord decided it wasn't worth starting a war over. Hy Braseal's biggest flaw was being stubbornly isolationist and not wanting to do anything with the Imperium. If Hy Braseal was as bad as Merika the Warlord might have gone after them anyway.

>>51793463
I feel like I'm missing something.

>>51792734
>>51794243 (same)

That said, I like the depiction of Fulgrim having a "venomous" personality.

>>51794243
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Ashe#Personal_life_and_death
>was going to testify about Hilary Clinton for the UN then died right before his testifying
Just something that reminds me of this and a suicide where a man shot him self in his back with a shotgun while hiking.

>>51793685
Not a bad start, but as it stands its's a little light on Fulgrim's actual backstory. For example, how did he get augmented? (I believe we agreed way back when that he pulled off the rare feat of stealing the Mk II Astartes schematics and augmented himself. I assume he didn't share it because of his ego and wanting to be the star of the Merikan forces). Similarly, his motivations and such aren't really clear: why does he join the military (assuming it's a volunteer force)? Is he fighting purely for self-gain, or is there any aspect of restoring high culture like his canon depiction?

I get that the story isn't done yet, and that Fulgrim is less clear cut than a primarch with a more straightforward backstory, but considering how influential their time on Terra was to each primarch I think it's important to delve into these things so that he's fully fleshed out.

Wrote up the stuff on Arik Taranis based on the core idea I had and the other suggestions mentioned in this thread.

http://pastebin.com/MrsJeZm6

For some reason it feels clunky to me. Feels like I did something wrong. Definitely not my best work. Suggestions as to how to fix are welcome.

Instead of "splice hippies," do we want to use a term that sounds a little more prestigious, like "bio-druids" or something? Something that captures the fact they were crazy hermits but still brilliant. Hippies makes me think of unemployment and white people dreadlocks.

>>51797261
Second. Been saying we need a "formal" name for the gene-hippies.

Bump

>>51796933
It's perfect, don't change a damn thing.

>>51794826
It can be refined and fleshed out once the skeleton of it gets put on the 1d4chan page. This can be just the framework.

>>51797261
It's probable that by the end of Old Night connotations of "hippie" have been lost. Now it's just the bottom of the heap rank for the crazy hermit peoples of the Rockies. The appointed leader/spokesperson for each fortified commune gets title of Bio-Druid. Origins of the title have also been lost.

>>51801199
It's less of what people in-universe would think and more the fact that the word "hippie" has certain connotations to us as readers that makes them sound ridiculous.

>>51803396
I dunno, I think it would sound less ridiculous as part of a larger set of titles/ranks. Like:
Splice-Hippy
Gene-Wright
Bio-Druid
or something along those lines. Something to parallel the Enginseer/Tech-priest/Magos/Arch-Magos progression of the Mechanicus.

>>51794826
He joins the military because otherwise you're a civilian, which is second class even if you're rich, as opposed to being a military officer. Also he wanted power in the Merikan government, so he needed to be military.

>>51803563
>>51794826
>>51794243
Oh boy. I'm so going to have to be doing a revision of this at some later date.

>>51801199
>>51803396
>>51803479

I'm not sure if gene-wright is supposed to be a catch-all term for those working in applied bionics, genetic engineering, and biotechnology, or what?

Also despite their skill, they are kind of hippie-like. They're all about harmonizing with the natural order, which is their contribution to the Mark III gene-seed (they essentially turned the genesmiths design into something that allowed for some quality of life, which pissed the genesmiths off to no end and started the rivalry), and one of the weaknesses they passed down to the AdBio (can't fix all the problems of the universe because they're too busy harmonizing).

>>51332090
>figured I'd post the last bits I finished
Lucius had cut his teeth in the Panama trenches, fighting Hy Braseal in the long border wars that burned along the isthmus. He was little more than a month Furis's senior, and was held as another triumph of the Doe program. His tactical virtuosity was said to match Fulgrim's technical art, and the prodigies had been introduced to each other at the revels of some mutual superior. The Major is said to have pulled the mechanist from the agents of some officers intent on compelling Furis to grant them immortality, and would years later go on to make the same request, which Fulgrim strove to achieve. The two, Major Lucius and Special Lieutenant Fulgrim, took up their commands on New Atlantis where the former began his campaign against the Brasealian forces in the heavily fortified south of the landmass and the scattered Aftique enclaves occupying its eastern half, and the latter rebuilding and updating the ancient merikan air fortress on the island. Backed by Fulgrim's advanced weapons and occasionally his enhanced soldiers, as well as the ever increasing air power he was building in the northwest of the continent, Lucius made short, mean work of the Afrique settlements and drove Hy Braseal back to a single heavy garrison on the southernmost point, and was known for leading from the front, sword in hand. Fulgrim, once his workshop was well established and the conversion of the Ursh defense interceptor detachments to dive bombers and escorts was underway, was characteristically preoccupied with personal projects. He and his core of mechanists were busy preparing cybernetic enhancements and warriors in a rush to complete their long standing mission to provide Merika with an equivalent shock troop to the Thunderwarrior, themselves already replaced by Astartes.

>>51805115
Fulgrim was so bold as to fly sorties of cyborg drop troops into imperial territory, testing his Merikanized Skittari against the Imperium and its Astartes under the cover of the brushfire wars that had sprung up around the holdouts of Ursh's conquests. In these raids, nominally advance scouting missions, he found a single Astarte was worth about two of his own prized combat cyborgs. Despite many close calls he succeeded in taking numerous astartes and thunder warriors in-tact, though rarely alive, and began the process of reverse engineering their implants, if not outright stealing them. Very few outside of Fulgrim's mechanists, an increasingly honed band of enhanced Doe children and long exiled arctic Tech-priests, were privy to these hoarded acquisitions, but Lucius was one of the few who Furris included in his conspiracy. Both Lucius and Fulgrim were reforged with Astartes enhancements and the mechanists' own inventions as best they could manage, alongside many of their cabal. The result was less in stature and might than true Astartes, but the Doe children were a match for second generation Astartes, refined towards Furris's aims for the unit. It was at this point that Fulgrim and his group caught the attention and interest of the Warlord, and the hydra in particular. With the artificial continent secured and the Merikan air forces ready to launch in bombers and gunships High Command moved into the fortress and Fulgrim's band returned to the continent. The lab that remained to produce Merikan cyber-legionnaires bore no trace of the Astartes experiments, but leaked rumors of new wonders saw Fulgrim returned to the capitol and well funded as war with the Imperium mounted, while Lucius was sent to reinforce the army sent to end the rebellion of Governor Dorn. Merikan bombers lit up the Imperium from Franj to Afrique and cyborg drop troops fell to the aid of recalcitrant lords and Urshian holdouts, destroying and sabotaging everything they could.

>>51805650
If I had known that you were actually going to continue rather than just promise to continue I wouldn't have shat out that mess upthread.

If you continue and finish I promise I won't continue.

The better written of the two, yours, will be given the place on the 1d4chan page.

>>51805650
Fulgrim himself was attempting to engineer a coup. Having seen the Imperium in his advance raids and equated it with the empire of old he deramed of, he wished to cut down the old leadership of his nation while it seemed within his power and steer it into his bright vision. He had surpassed even Lucius as a swordsman during his adventures in the New Atlantis campaign, and now Fulgrim planned to use his charm, fame, and the lure of technological enhancement to access necessary targets, and to ingratiate himself in the matters of succession before decapitation. Though his early plan went well Fulgrim overestimated his own and his agents' ability to manipulate a government in the mounting chaos of war with the Imperium, and it was not long before the self styled superhuman was at the mercy of Merikan secret police. He was saved by two plainly dressed men that introduced themselves as Ames and Ozzy, and bore the sigil of a hydra.

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>>51805850
MOAR! Is there moar?

>>51806951
I'll try. I wasn't really sure how the actual coup should go, and will probably gloss over his time in the great crusade, but will do my best at the iron cage scenario. Somebody else should figure out his part in the War of the Beast.

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>>51794826

See >>51803563. Merika is a junta. The military, by definition, is the government. If you want any sort of power you have to join the military.

>>51805850
>>51805808
>>51805115

Don’t take any of this as a statement for canon, but if there is still an issue as which version to go with (though this seems to have been resolved in the time it took to type this up) as an alternative we could always try to combine the two narratives to some degree. Primarchfag has some good stuff in terms of the how, whereas Fulgrimfag has good stuff on his motivations. If it's not an issue, then ignore this post entirely (see attached gif).

Put it as a pastebin so that people don't get confused with either fulgrimfag or primarchfag's stuff.

http://pastebin.com/pMjEEBxC

As a suggestion, it would like to keep the relationship between Ferrus and Fulgrim if possible. Fulgrim, as Fulgrimfag suggested, probably greatly looked up to the Mechanicus, and Ferrus probably though Fulgrim had the right idea and respected his technical skill, especially for a fleshling. It gives Ferrus a bit more character, in that despite being unyieldingly devoted to the Mechanicus first and foremost, the old battleax still had a little bit of humanity left in him.

>>51807446
Alright, it sounds like it's list time again. Time to figure out who and who wasn't on Old Earth for the Siege of Terra

Confirmed To Be:
Sanguinius (duh)
Vulkan
Magnus
Leman Russ (got there late)
Lorgar
Dorn (I think)
Angron (Technically. On his deathbed, didn't fight IIRC)

Confirned To Not Be:
Ferrus Manus - Almost certainly on Mars, probably tried to justify defending Mars by saying Old Earth wasn't the only world in Sol under attack, and if Mars went down so did the technology to rebuild. Like always, technically correct, if an asshole about it.
Perty
Curze - Too busy cutting supply lines
Lion "Stop killing each other you idiots" El'Jonson
Corax - Too busy dealing with his legion's PTSD

Unknown
Mortarion - Ambiguous. May or may not have.
Khan - Also unknown. The Doombreed stuff from last thread implied he went with Lorgar and Magnus back to Old Earth
Guilliman - Implied not to be, did more in hampering the Beast
Fulgrim - So far nothing

>>51808107
Perty was in a medically induced coma whilst they stitched him back together from his fight with the Pox Dok. He wouldn't wake up until some time after the WotB.

>>51808107
Leman Russ was on Terra in time for the full Battle of Terra, it's just that he and Lorgar were the other primarchs closest to the Imperial Palace but couldn't get there in time to save Sangy after the call for aid went out.

I thought Angron fought in the BoT and died shortly afterwards. Like it was his last hurrah and the stress of the battle is what pushed his body over the edge and caused his death.

>>51808267
>I thought Angron fought in the BoT and died shortly afterwards. Like it was his last hurrah and the stress of the battle is what pushed his body over the edge and caused his death.

On the 1d4chan page it says that he survived the WotB but died peacefully in his sleep not long afterwards as possibly the oldest TW. As a TW it was miraculous he lived as long as he did, I can see the WotB stressing him so far it burns him out and kills him.

In some writefaggatory there is also a shot little story of him writing his final thoughts down as a sort of goodbye.

>>51808107
Guilliman was probably off Terra coordinating defenses against the Beasts forces.
He most likely felt that Terra would have enough defenders, but also that if the Imperium burned it didn't matter if Terra was saved.
Was Horus alive at that point? Because if he was, he probably worked real close with Guilliman to save the rest of the Imperium.

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>>51774385
I really like the idea of Arik Taranis, Malcador and Oscar traveling the world together, going to strange exotic lands and being badass.

Malcador it is known in this AU does not wear a monastic looking habit. It is known he wears a ushanka hat. I'm going to suggest that he also typically wears a big faded high-viz all weather coat to complete the image.

Taranis I'm going to suggest used to wear a padded lab coat or a lab coat under/over a flack jacket.

Oscar typically wore whatever the fuck they had in his size, it's not like he could get damaged or feel cold.

Traveling the world Malcador would have been the one complaining about the weather. Constantly. Anything warmer than 10°C was fucking inhuman to him and not climate for civilized people.

They would also have been talking in some weird Finno-Slavic language that nobody outside of Terrawatt, Uralia and the western border of Skand could understand.

There's just something amusing about the whole world and galaxy shaking in the bootsteps of 3 old friends from somewhere about or near Finland. They grew up in nuclear bunkers constantly waiting for the next catastrophe to wipe them out end up being so mighty that the things they once feared would have barely been worth stepping on.

Malcador never gets rid of the hat.

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>>51808348
The stuff in the threads on Angron's poetry way back when implied that he was hospitalized for quite a while before he died, and that a lot of his later poetry and doodles were how pissed he was that his organs were failing him.

>>51808743
Yeah, Horus was alive. He funneled the Beast's forces towards Terra after the Chaos Gods' attempt to turn him failed, because he knew if they could take out the Beast and his nobs the whole offensive would just fall apart. Orks would go back to infighting, Dark Eldar would bug out, and Cronedar weren't going to pick a fight they weren't going to win. The faster the Beast died, the faster the Imperium could turn the tide.

Guilliman wasn't really all Imperium Secundus here, that was more Horus' line of thought. Guilliman would have been more "I'd like for Old Earth to survive, but I know things might not go that way". Saving the rest of the Imperium was probably something he'd do, and because he left quite a few Ultramarines on Old Earth (see Sangy fluff) no one complained about him not showing up like they did for Corax and the Lion.

>>51808743
Horus would not have been on Old Earth. He needed a support harness to walk against real gravity.

Also ground warfare would be a waste of his talents.

>>51808976
To add to the feels, it is likely that Arik Taranis experimented on himself so much out of Piccolo syndrome. He knew that his friend was so much stronger than he was, and no matter how hard he tried he could never keep up. Oscar was going somewhere that he could not follow.

For Oscar, despite being 11,000 years old, the Great Crusade and to a lesser extent the interbellum before the first Black Crusade were the best years of his life. He lost about half his friends and family during the War of the Beast. He lost even more in the years afterwards. Being Oscar is suffering.

Taranis probably traded out the flack for the Custodes armor after his little incident, seeing as the golden Custodian armor was partly his idea.

>>51808987
The line of Guilliman and House Guilliman failed on Old Earth. None of his descendants were counted among the living at the end of the war.

Only one of House Guilliman survived at all, thanks the the Imperium Secundus contingency plan. Guilliman just loved his contingency plans. No matter what happened he had a plan for how to beat it. It was how his forces reacted so quickly and coherently when The Beast smashed into Imperial Space. They just adapted one of his older plans slightly. He was anticipating the discovery of some great and hostile empire, possibly human possibly xeno, out on the Eastern Fringe. Sort of an "Evil Twin. Wat Do?" type deal. The Ultramarine WotB plans were mostly just adapted from that.

In any case the Imperium Secundus groundwork needed someone to oversee it. Lord Guillimans grandson, Gaufrid Guilliman, was a very competent and respected member of the Administratum who was tasked with overseeing this great and hopefully never to use Plan B. It was mostly based around the older empire of Ultramar and using that as a keystone for other systems to rally around.

Gaufrid Guilliman was the only descendant of Yolande Fouché and Roboute Guilliman to survive. There are still people in the realm of Ultramar with the name Guilliman. They are almost certainly descendants now very far removed.

In this AU Guilliman never made any secret about his Plan B, it was seen as only sensible to prepare for the worst.

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>>51809235
>Sort of an "Evil Twin. Wat Do?" type deal
Does their Oscar have a goatee or not?

Actually kind of makes sense. Ultramar is about as far away from the Imperium as you can get and still be in what one would call civilization. If the hypothetical evil!Imperium arose somewhere else and smashed into Old Earth, Ultramar is the best place to be clear of the blast radius.

Also explains why the Ultramarines like Macragge so much.

Surprisingly Nuceria of all places is one of the worlds of Ultramar in canon. I can see Nuceria being the asshole world of Ultramar and having sort of an Athens and Sparta relationship with Macragge, with the two absolutely hating each other. When Angron saw Nuceria he probably had flashbacks to Nord Afrik and wanted to burn that place to the ground.

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>++3rd Black Crusade++
>+909.M32+
Lady Malys promised Daemon Prince Tallomin the slaughter of millions of warriors if he and some daemons killed the population of Cadia. Starting the 3rd Black Crusade with the attack on Cadia, the Crone Eldar avoid fighting on the planet as they collected the millions slain by daemons. Barging with Ork clans for "great fights with the humies" and some shiny hats, Lady Malys was able to launch a campaign of extermination on some surrounding sub-sectors while the fighting on Cadia stall. The Daemon Breakers arrived onto Caida via Webway in time to rush for the defense of a fortress city. Tricking the local Guardsmen that they were "Vanguard for more Inquisitorial required troops" the renegades managed to grind the daemons to halt on multiple fronts. Unknown to the Imperials, Orkz, or Tallomin however, the entire Black Crusade was a distraction to allow the first phase of the Long War to finish. Lady Malys had planned to kill hundreds of millions to collect their corpses to be used in dark rituals. The Warpcraft invoked would allow certain individuals to raise the dead with just a hand wave or cause outbreaks of the Rot with their mind. Chanting Nurgle's prayers in forbidden tongues while crushing millions of bodies to become fertilizer then flushing it down into the ground or sewer system was done on many worlds. The arrive of the Gray Knights prompted Lady Malys to order her human agents with being gifted such power over the dead, to share their Warpcraft or knowledge to a parasitic immortal race already infiltrating Imperial society. Magnus along with the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, and Gray Knights arrived on Cadia to finally force Tallomin's daemons to flee Cadia. By this time the Daemon Breakers were long gone to skrit capture again. When the Imperials were no longer on the defensive, they sent enormous counter-attacks resulting in terrible losses. Agents sent, Chaos retreated, and the Black Crusade was surprisingly successful.

>>51812064
Just to clarify, is their aim to kill a bunch of people then use their remains to spread disease?

Also, I would push the date back by a millenium (so M33) given it's the 3rd crusade. I think we said a while back that the first Black Crusade came shortly after the WotB. Chaos thought the Imperium would still be weak, then got majorly surprised by how fast they had rebuilt and got majorly BTFO so it was a while before the worked up the guts to try again.

Also, would the Daemon Breakers have been formed by then? Ahriman's little warband started after the Rubric and loss of Prospero, but when do we think this happens?

>>51812064
Would have to be after Fourth Black Crusade at the earliest. Daemon Breakers didn't form until after Prospero got stuck between dimensions and Ahriman started to get a little loopy and willing to cross some lines in order to bring his adopted home back and make Chaos pay.

Also is this the whole Black Crusade, or just the opening act? I was under the impression that the First Black Crusade was the only one to really get stopped at Cadia, due to Chaos not expecting the Imperium to fortify at Chaos' doorstep, and the later ones basically try to blaze past Cadia with as much force as possible, tries to destroy as much as they can, and then salts the Earth when they start losing/Lady Malys sobers up and has to go back to the eye for more drugs.

That said, if this is Lady Malys opening act, it's a good one.

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>>51812543
>What was their goal?
Spreading the power and knowledge to start Rot outbreaks and raising the dead to cultists or vampires.

>M.33
That's fine, just took the vanilla date so I don't care about the timing.

>Daemon Breakers
We agreed that they formed after running the Rubric and Magnus finding out about the daemon binding. Don't known when that actually happened.

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>>51812578
Shit might have to change it to not include the Daemon Breakers.

I hope I didn't give the false impression that Chaos halted at Cadia. Although I focused on the ground comabt at Cadia with only daemons on the planet killing everthing, most of the Black Crusade is ravaging the sector. Tricking the Imperials to charge in to rescue Cadia, they failed to dislodge Chaos from the surrounding sub-sectors and allowed the Crone Eldar/Fallen to retreat mostly intact. More importantly, the Imperium also couldn't prevent the dark rituals of Nurgle from being preformed with fleets bypassing many sub-sectors.

This was meant to be the final stage of phase one in the four phase plane for the Long War, laying the foundations of internal decay. Just the end of the beginning.

>>51812871
Just tweak it a bit to make it more clear it was just the opening act, and that while the clusterfuck with the zombies and plague was the biggest thing that happened, it wasn't the only thing that happened.

Any reason it has to be the third Black Crusade? We could always move it to the Fifth or Sixth (which would be soon enough after the Burning of Prospero for Ahriman to go screwy, but early enough that Mags would still be around).

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>>51813053
1-3rd Black Crusade = Phase 1 Decay
4-6th Black Crusade = Phase 2 Weakening
7-9th Balck Crusade = Phase 3 Struggle
10-12th Black Crusade = Phase 4 Drowning
13th Black Crusade = Climax

Purposely wrote it to draw attention to Cadia instead of the more dangerous clusterfuck of shit Chaos got away with in the war.

>>51813144
You know, maybe the Long War should be a single entry, as opposed to dividing it among the crusades. Because it seems like the crusades often had multiple goals, of which more than one were often established (e.g., Prospero was just one of the successes of the 4th Black Crusade). Just one more way in which Malys has an edge on vanilla Abbadon.

>>51813529
At least Malys's crusade was about fucking up the Imperium massively compared to vanilla!Abbadon
>let's steal a prophet's corpse while attacking Cadia
or
>let's steal a magical sword!
and
>we'll attack their super fort to test it's strength

>>51813529
>>51814032
It should be noted though that despite Malys' bump in competence over vanilla Abbadon, she is still fallible. This is in contrast to vanilla Abbadon's chaos sue bullshit where he always "wins" despite the mental gymnastics and retcons GW has had to pull to make him an actual threat. Any encounter with Abbadon has no dramatic tension because we all know he will win/survive with some ridiculous reason for why it was "just as planned." On the other hand, I think we established way back that Malys has actually died a few times, once when she was jumped by an entire brotherhood of Grey Knights, but like any good boogeyman she keeps coming back as the chaos gods will always resurrect their best servant.

>>51814107
>despite the mental gymnastics and retcons GW has had to pull to make him an actual threat

Please point to any retcons. I demand exact citations because we have been through this dance many times before and with it I learn how much I hate you people, historical revisionists.

>>51814125
Off the top of my head? (Because no, I'm not going to dig up old codexes or download books I don't have for an internet autist) In the old fluff, there were several failed BCs against Cadia whereas that was all scrapped in CSM 6ed with ADB's Crimson Path so now the only BC against Cadia is 13, or maybe one more but I don't remember. They also changed his motivation for wanting to take Cadia from being the only stable warp path out of the Eye into wanting to blow it up so they could expand the Eye.

But I suppose what I really want to say is: Jesus anon, take a deep breath, take your meds, and don't get so worked up over silly shit on an imageboard about Chinese cartoons.

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>>51814346
>(Because no, I'm not going to dig up old codexes or download books I don't have for an internet autist)

So you basically admit that you are full of shit? But still delusional enough to think you are right? Lets check the older lore shall we? Oh look! the previous Black Crusades to the 13th all bypassed Cadia and went to achieve over objectives. Also none of them were named as failed crusades in the old fluff. I guess that makes you a lying shitbag,

Seriously, if you want to discuss the lore and offer opinions be educated about it instead of throwing insults and false accusations at based GW.

>>51814740
No, I just have better things to do with my time.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/18-40k-fluff/57738-missing-black-crusade-fluff.html

Look at the thread here, literally the first 2 BCs are direct attacks on Cadia, whereas BC 1 in the new fluff is when Abbadon gets his sword. The stuff you cite (which you neglect to provide a source for as well) where he bypasses Cadia is relatively recent, so read up newfag.

But it seems you're pretty set in your convictions, so if the new fluff makes you feel better about your plastic army men then go nuts, you do you.

>based GW
I feel like I'm being rused.

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>>51814878
>which you neglect to provide a source for as well

4th ED rulebooks and the Eye of Terror campaign book. This is the updated version in 6th ED.

>No, I just have better things to do with my time.

Translation : I have no sources or argument.

They were attacks on Cadia as distractions for Abaddon to do his objectives. They were not mean to take the planet.

>whereas BC 1 in the new fluff is when Abbadon gets his sword.

New fluff? Abaddon always got his sword from the First Black Crusade. It's literally written in the old CSM codexes and Andy Chamber's old ED article :Abaddon the Victorious".

Dude, you are the newfag.

So I'm completely new to this and seeing your general for the first time. I'm wondering what did you do with the Night Lords and Curze.

>>51814107
>chaos gods will always resurrect their best servant.
It's also a fact that they don't want her soul wandering around the Chaos Wastes because she is fucked up.

She is significantly blessed by all of the gods of Chaos to a degree that puts her way above every deamon prince but without the limitations.

>>51814994
Night Lords are still the evil bastards that they should be. This time they are inside pissing out rather than out there pissing in.

They got sent to the shitholes where their antics wouldn't make much difference to the general populace or worlds that were infested with xenos on extermination list. They were the tame monsters that got let loose as needed.

Curze was no less batshit but he was more self-aware. He trained up Zso Sahaal as a less awful successor. Once he had considered himself to have outlived his usefulness to the Imperium he gathered together his highest officers for a jury, appointed a judge and had himself tried for war crimes and then executed.

>>51814951
Oddly in that case the 1st BC is less successful in this AU. Lady Malys expected the eldar to have drifted away for m the Imperium because they should have seen humanity as having run out of usefulness. She expected The Beast to have left a broken galaxy in it's wake and a crippled, dying Imperium and isolated insular craftworlds.

She did not expect her armada to run straight into a solid iron fist of Imperial might. WotB might have been the baptism of blood but 1st BC was the fire the made that shit stick. It was clear to most of everybody that Chaos would never stop. The inclusion into the Imperium was the only weather the storm.

>>51814032
>we'll attack their super fort to test it's strength

You mean

>Dare we attack their Imperial fortress?

>>51814107
This. Lady Malys is scarier than Abbadon, but that's as much due to GW's bad writing for Abs as it is Malys competence. Malys is a good strategist, but she's also nuts, and is willing to take risks Abbadon isn't. Which gets her killed every once in a while, but the Dark Gods want her out of their realm as fast as possible.

>>51814994
>>51816928

Strangely enough, we never really expounded on how Curze got from a child living on the streets of the PPE to a soldier in the Imperium. He's one of the younger primarchs, either coming in just after or (more likely) before Sangy, Vulkan, and Lion. PPE was the second worst place to live on earth, with horrible biotechnology (this is the place that, in canon, Curze's legion was sent to destroy).

Funny idea, by the 41st millenium Curze's method of changing society by "ripping the head off and sewing a new one on in its place" has led the phrase "to curze something" to enter the modern lexicon as a word for "burning everything down and starting from scratch". As in "the project didn't work, so I curzed it".

>>51818125
I was actually thinking about this last night. Assuming we want a primarch in each augmentation group, Curze would have to be a Mk III MP. This still would give him enough time to participate in the late Unification Wars and fight Ursh given how goddamn big it was, rising through the ranks for his success in hunting Urshi remnants and guerillas. Not sure how he would make it to a high enough rank to be considered for primarch, maybe he's an colonel and discovers that the general he's serving under is a traitor and publicly executes him?

I imagine the Steward initially did not want to name Curze primarch despite reports on how effective he was, and it was Malcador who talked him into it.

>>51814951
Yeah, looks like I misremembered the BC 1, I grant you that. I still remember pretty distinctly that original BC 2 was against Cadia and now has been changed to cursing a planet and blowing up a shipyard. Maybe that's wrong too, disprove it if you like. At the end of the day Chaos isn't my specialty and you care a lot more about it than I do.

The entire point of my original point was that Abbadon isn't a very interesting villain because of his plot armor. Nothing said here detracts from that.

>in b4 moving goalposts
>in b4 "REEE Imperium has more plot armor!"

>>51818487
The Steward could have also just plain made a mistake. Remember that despite being much more of a humanitarian this time around, the Steward isn’t perfect, and can still screw up. He could have nominated Kurze seeing how driven he was and how passionate he was about justice, only to be horrified at what Kurze was willing to achieve those goals (either that, or he did know, and he thought Kurze could be straightened out…he was wrong). He may have thought about de-nominating him but Malcador may have stepped in and said they could still use Kurze.

Kurze might not have gotten the Mark III S augmentations because he wasn’t genetically compatible with them. The Mark III S are incredibly finicky, and it was probably a miracle that the Lion and Vulkan were even compatible with them in the first place. Kurze was unconcerned about augmentations enough that he didn’t care that he wasn’t compatible with the good stuff. Privately the Steward was relieved that he didn’t have to worry about a Mark III S Kurze running around.

I imagine that Kurze still did a bit of vigilante work, but not nearly as widespread as he did in canon. Less Space Batman, and more the poor fools who stole bread from a woman in the bread line in the slums found themselves beaten to death by a wild-eyed, long-haired teenager street rat who then, despite not having any bread of his own, gave it back to the woman. Establishes both his strong feelings of right and wrong, and the absolute insane lengths he is willing to go to accomplish it.

starting in on more story, any suggestions for Fulgrim's part in the coup or adventures in the great crusade and war of the beast would be much appreciated. I have ideas for his relationships with other primarchs and his role in the Imperium's forces, which should lead to his part in those wars, but thoughts from the thread always helps. I'm thinking his misadventure fighting the Tzeentchian orks ought to mirror his failed coup from before the alpha legion bailed him out, but more than that I'm not sure. Also, I'm thinking that after this defeat he retires from military command and spends his time collaborating with the Gorgon, and only returns to battle latter in life.

>>51819503
I think it's less a matter of compatibility and more the fact that Curze would have been a complete nobody at the time. In addition to their compatibility, Lion and Vulkan were picked for the Mk III S prototypes because they were already notable leaders despite being still young enough for augmentation (early 20s). Like Mortarion, Curze on the other hand would have joined up as a grunt, probably because in his view military might was the only way to bring about justice, and then tested positive for augmentation compatibility after the Mk III MP came out, giving him a character arc of going from no one to nightmare.

>>51814994
You can read the primarch fluff here
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Nobledark_Imperium_Primarchs

>>51819933
Fulgrim's adventures in the Great Crusade and War of the Beast would be heavily dependent on his relationship with other primarchs and their role in the Imperium.

If Fulgrim is still a lover of culture like in canon, I could see him being the biggest xenophile in the Imperium, always trying to make contact with other cultures that the rest of the Imperium would rather leave alone and digging for archaeotech alongside the Gorgon.

Not well versed in Fulgrim, but IIRC his most important pre-Heresy battle was the whole thing with the Laer. Knowing Fulgrim, he still would have probably picked up the stupid sword unless someone let him know it was corrupted. The Steward would have probably gone "Send Fulgrim to the planet of the Hedonists? Bad idea." or Eldrad would have let the Steward know that sending Fulgrim there was a Bad Thing.

>>51820383
Makes you wonder how well Curze and Mortarion got alone. Curze and Mortarion were the two primarchs that absolutely no one liked, and whose methods were resented though begrudgingly tolerated in the Imperium. Both believed the ends justified the means, and the importance in sinning so that order could be established by those with cleaner hands.

Curze could have gained notoriety by being the one to end the Urshii insurgency. When you're scary enough that you scare the guys whose M.O. is to terrorize people from the shadows, you get noticed.

Speaking of scary people, where is Mount Vengeance in this timeline? The fluff seems to indicate it's near the Salt Sea in what's left of the Mediterranean.