>>51629545
First step: Drop the retarded /pol/ / internet-terminology
Second: Realize that you simply need a different angle to this whole thing. Unless you're using a D&D-esque alignment-based divinity, you will not have villainous races. Demons, Devils and whatever evil thingy you use are an entire race of bad things because their very essence is made of evil energy - which means they can get away without having a functional society because they're also inherently supernatural.
If don't want to use that, then you simply need culture that promotes "villainous" behaviour like slavery, coupled with military expansion and/or a religion that likes sacrifices. However, whatever ethnicity this culture mainly is composed of will not be a evil race. There will and should be people who object to it, to further contrast the villainy of the culture. Lastly it can't be stupid evil, or simply evil for evils sake. Whatever they conquer must be kept in a working state so that they can feed themselves, so the society will also have regular people that might not be evil, but will not think twice about ratting out heroes or dissidents for their own benefit.
The roman empire, china during the warring states period and Nazi germany and its allies can all serve as realistic foundations here

>>51629545
Give them their own cultures and ideals. The leaders of their civilizations should have goals, perhaps seeking the betterment of their people. Perhaps just seeking to benefit themselves. Point is, it makes sense to pursue these goals from their perspective.

Now make the pursuit of their interests something that conflicts with the interests of whatever cultures your party comes from.

>>51630064
>>51629762
A good example would be the horde from early Warcraft games 2 and 3 especially, the orcs are not evil but their culture is just too different from what the alliance deems normal and their natural hostility makes them out to be seen as evil by the alliance.

>>51630469
>orcs sold themselves to demons and murderraped an entire Kingdom
>not evil
I get in Wc3 they weren't but in 2 they just finished destroying Stormwind and were ready to do the same to the rest of the human kingdoms, and they instigated the entire conflict by invading in Wc1.

You don't because the term dindu was pretty much created by people that wanted to reduce complex situations into literally "black and white".

Stop subscribing to and using retarded /pol/ shit and the issue pretty much goes away.

>>51629545
Don't round them out, play it straight. They're spawned by black and twisted sorcery, grown in great vats of vile black goo. They don't have a culture because they weren't made for that. They were created to be as awful as possible, to fight and destroy everything. If they're not killed by either the good guys or their peers, they die off in a couple years anyway.

>>51631002
>You don't because the term dindu was pretty much created by people that wanted to reduce complex situations into literally "black and white".

fucking this

>>51630821
Yeah I forgot how 2 was but my point still stands for 3.

>>51629545
Might makes right. They see no difference between a wolf pack running an elk down and a warband razing a village.

You gotta get your shit from somewhere. These guys are big and tough. It's simply more effective for them to take what they need than invest in the developments that make you self sufficient.

>>51629762
>military expansion
>evul
So medieval societies are subjected to the XXIst century standards now?

>>51630821

It's funny how you hold the Orcs selling out to the Burning Legion against them when that's WC3 era Lore which is when they tried to have the Orcs stop being the villain.

>>51629762
dindu nuffin is AKSHULLLY an ebonics term, not /pol/, unless you think /pol/ is what compels blacks to shout this on every episode of cops

>>51631422
Right, because the orcs willfully massacring humans without being influenced by demons is better. I'm actually being nicer to the orcs by saying they were controlled by the Legion- otherwise that means every orc murdered a human of their own free will and without any demonic influence.

>>51631493
Warcraft 1 Orcs are still the best imo

Nothing beats that Orc ending

>>51631493

> Right, because the orcs willfully massacring humans without being influenced by demons is better

From a Lore stand it is. In the long-run the Blood Curse was one of the worst things to happen in WC's Lore. Frankly, the movie handled it better.

>>51631606
I don't get why so many people hated that movie, yes it should have been longer and explained things better but it was amazing looking and was more original than blue Pocahontas.

>>51631328
Orcs are not, and have never been medieval.

>>51631328
Yes. Obviously.

>>51631002
Who cares about the term? The intention is pretty clear.

He wants to round out a villainous race, perhaps even make them understandable, while still allowing them to be held accountable for their actions and for efforts to oppose them to be treated as justified.

Best way to do that is to maybe give them legitimate grievances and needs, or an understandable mission, but they're still killing your guys at the end of the day. Even if they have a good reason for what they do, you have a good reason for not wanting to just lay down and die. As long as they remain a threat, you have reason to neutralize them for your own security.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. The villainous race clearly does not hold the lives of other races in the same regard as their own. As long as their methods do harm to your kind, it is right to be wary of them. It is understandable to hate them.

We wouldn't HAVE problems with /pol/ if you guys didn't keep taking the bait. They're just saying stuff to rustle your jimmies so they can feel persecuted when you call them retarded.

>>51629545
It's not a hard thing to do. Simply don't do what warcraft ended up doing. See: Elves in Elder Scrolls, Dwarves and chaos in warhammer fantasy, or one of any number of factions already given fluff in D&D books.
Personally, I'm a fan of villain races so alien they creep out the supposed big bads of the setting, like illithids or some other creepy-crawly race that thinks weirdly.

File: illithid_det01.jpg (61 KB, 722x399)

61 KB JPG

>>51632467
>like illithids or some other creepy-crawly race that thinks weirdly

I remember reading something about Illithids which I thought could be pretty cool.
You know the way our brains can come to see tools as an extension of our bodies?
Essentially, the idea is that Illithids, as a naturally telekinetic race, see everything around them as an extension of themselves.
This, coupled with the fact they have mind-control, means they don't entirely see non-Illithids as actual beings.
They also freak the fuck out if someone resists their mind-control, like we would if our arm just went rogue and started punching us

File: haradrim.jpg (206 KB, 1920x800)

206 KB JPG

>>51629545
"Evil" humans fighting the good humans is much more interesting than using a different "race" as the villains entirely

>>51629545
Have their good and impressive achievements be built on top of or otherwise inextricably linked with their bad deeds. Have them build wonderful marvels of architecture with slave labor, have their unrivaled health and standard of living be due to a brutal eugenics program, have their complex and beautiful religion demand living sacrifices, have their urban scholars and philosophers only able to do their thing because of the wealth and security provided by brutal military campaigns out on the frontier. Remove the bad part and the good comes crashing down.

For contrast, you can have a people who are unquestionably good, but they don't do anything impressive because they're too virtuous to be anything other than hand-to-mouth dirt farmers.

>>51632752
Seconded

>>51629545
make them mentally incapable of understanding morality, ethics, and the line of thought "how would blank feel?" This will leave you with a species of sociopathic amoral monsters, no mater what their intelligence level is with the only saving grace of occasionally having their interest align with the success of someone decent in the most rare of situations.
done, now pay me in you.

>>51632714
Neat.

File: angry tinkerbell.gif (486 KB, 500x281)

486 KB GIF

>>51629545
Jealousy.

Hear me out.

Imagine if you're in your nice little neighborhood, and the somewhat-nearby orphanage suddenly becomes a forge and armory. The orphans then arm themselves and out of jealousy for all those who have the luxury of having parents, bring chaos and slaughter to your town, seeking only to inflict the pain they feel upon you.

Everything they do is designed to make you feel the splinter in their paw that drives them to attack everything in sight, and if you become what they have become, they will have had true victory. If they can't be happy, then no one can. There's no pretending they haven't gone way too far in their temper tantrum, but there's no pretending they're doing this for no reason.

>>51629545
They are a race that was around before humans and that's simply all they know. Think of it like vikings, they are dope as fuck and are considered evil but its like trying to teach a lion to be vegan. It's just not what they are meant to do.

File: orcking.jpg (41 KB, 500x500)

41 KB JPG

>>51629545
I really shouldn't bump a /pol/bait thread...

But yeah, that's pretty obvious - give them a legitimate reason to be evil, maybe even something that can be resolved in the long term. Make them redeemable. Problem solved.

Typical examples:
>Driven into near extinction by the greed of mankind, allied with some magical force to exact revenge and reclaim their kingdom.

>Cruelly ruled over by a bunch of powerful evil fucks at the top who drive their thralls to war, largely against their will.

>Can't communicate with humans for one reason or another, require some artifact the humans hold in the center of the capital to survive or return to their own dimension. Constantly war against mankind for reasons humanity can never understand.

>Naturally warlike, primitive, and tribal, but some enlightened leaders are trying to move them into a civilized society. However, their previous murderous conflicts with humanity makes them wary of these efforts, and they try to break up the organization whenever possible, further fueling the rage of the upper echelons in conflict with these progressive leaders. (More or less the plot of pic related.)

etc. etc.

>The Mote In God's Eye

Individual orcs are just as capable of being civilized as humans. Unfortunately, they breed so fast that they'll eventually have to swarm everything for more territory or die.

They do not kill those who cannot fight back. So those without weapons and small children. But if that kid picks up a dagger and starts swinging he's fair game.

>>51631002
>complains about people reducing complex situtations to black and white
>does so even more aggressively
lol leftists

>>51632714
I second the approval of this one, or something along those lines.

It'd be better if there was some way to convey this problem to the humans so that maybe some could be in some way aware of it. Maybe even convince some of the creatures that, "Hey, you aren't the only brain around, get used to it."

Granted, another similar approach is that the creatures NEED to kill mankind to survive, be it for food, or a breeding process, or for souls, but that doesn't really make them redeemable, generally speaking, unless you can provide another source for this need that involves less conflict.

File: 2921588-Hot_Toys_Scar_Predator.jpg (182 KB, 894x592)

182 KB JPG

>>51633867
They're still dicks.

>>51633937
You've got the techniques of shitposting down, but you're using too many of them.
The typo in the picture, the SAGE GOES IN ALL FIELDS, the reference to another, shittier board, the obviously wrong statements on a game you probably don't play and the accusing the OP of baiting are all good form, but it's too obvious and no one will bite.
6/10, you've got potential.

>>51632752
Man those haradrim were really different from the men of the west, with their weird cloths and culture and such. It's like they were some totally different race or something...

>>51634449
Were they? Were they so different?

>>51631079
Except no.
It was created to mock the fact that every time a black guy got arrested and was clearly fucking guilty, the first comment form his female family would invaribly be that he "Dindu nothing".

It was not mocking a black and white issue, only in the sense that it was literally a black issue,

File: banners[1].jpg (255 KB, 778x900)

255 KB JPG

>>51629545
>Now I ask, how do you recommend to round out or make less "Black and White" a villain race without turning them into Dindus?

Make the ends justify the means, or, barring that: have the people come to accept it in their own way.
Grass is always greener sort of deal.

It's what I've been doing.

>Sure, the Orcish Empire has sacked, raided, destroyed many of the neighboring kingdoms, and mass-slaughtered all the noble and ruling class to replace with orcish rulers.. but under Orcish rule: Food quality and distribution is up, the poor and homeless have been given jobs and housing- even the previously infirmed as Orcish medicine excels at prosthesis, political infighting and corruption is non-existent, and freedom of religion is once again legal.

>Really, though, life has never been better under the rule of the Dragon King: his long life span has guaranteed peace & stability throughout the kingdom, the dragon worshipping church has never been so generous with their miracles and public outreach, holidays are often, frequent, and joyous- The Dragon King holding a celebration in his glory almost twice a month, and the country never safer due to our order of knights blessed with the ability to shapeshift into Dragon Men.

>Life is much more simpler now that the Omni-Druid has destroyed the kingdom: hunting and gathering only take up 6 hours of work every 2nd day, life expectancy is up thanks to the clean air, abundant natural food sources, and not having to mine for coal or shovel human shit, prayers to the Omni-druid are answered with blessings of strength, good hunts, and increased sexual endowment, and the Omni-druid is always accepting new druids to spread the word and the wild.

>>51629545
Literally make them white people. Euros carved up the world and conquered it's people, while simultaneously bringing humanity into the greatest era of prosperity and technological innovation ever. England is literally a super villain historically. So was Rome, even if their conquest fell flat and didn't lead to anything interesting or lasting.

>>51629545
Are you trying to develop their character, or turn them around into good guys?

Because the former is a matter of execution and virtually anything will work as long as the person handling it tells it well.

In regards to the latter, just let time heal wounds once the culture's changed for any reason. I mean most people are aware of the holocaust but even direct perpetrators have managed to settle down, grow past it, and earn forgiveness.

>>51635440
>that last bit
You fool, you've summoned them!

It is risky to say it here, but I think the Thalmor from elder scrolls work as a good example. Their aspiration to undo the world makes then inherently evil and hostile to others while also being a logical religious aspiration.

Well, you could make them be like the mongols: Incredible brutal when waging war and conquering, yet surprisingly fair when comes down to ruling you.

Play them unapologetically straight.

Orc culture is brutal, and they take slaves, and mix their blood with slaves and prisoners they take.

However, everyone is born equal, and they're all brutal meritocracies. Only your strength and cunning will support you, and superiors are expected to keep ahead of their pupils, otherwise you aren't fit to be their superior.

I think a lot of you are missing the point, he's looking to flesh out a society that is adversarial and cruel without justifying their cruelty or their aggressiveness.

>>51629545
Start with firmly held beliefs (The Gods need blood to survive, strength is worthyness, if you aren't <race>, you're just an animal, etc), the create an economic impetus (surplus of second sons and full settlement of homeland means ever dwinding inheritances until new lands are incorporated, insufficient resources due to climate change, or conversely population boom due to decades of plenty, etc) and finish by making them own it and feel no remorse.

Fleshing them out should be accomplished by making ambitious factions willing to use outsiders to change the power dynamics, by giving them artforms, like epic poetry, handycraft tapestries, etc, that seem more authentic coming from a less civilized culture, and by making them individuals with their own motives and own level of zeal towards the cultural reason behind the cruelty or adversarialism that you chose. That doesnt mean make them into heretics who deny the cultural choice that makes them inimical to the other societies, just make them have bigger plans and a willingness to compromise.

Intelligent life is a niche that doesn't tolerate competition, it is not the all outlandish for "other homonids" to be strange, evil, and unrepentant from the prospective of the players.

>>51635595
>>51635890
Mixing these two would be pretty cool imo.

http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2014/06/almost-people.html

>>51629545
Undead are not evil by themselves, but a tool of evil and a perversion of the natural order. Unless it's a soulless, filthy vampire which kills or damns others. You can empathize creatures who live in constant agony, but can't die unless certain requirements are met pretty easily.

Orcs you can have them be more or less bandits or just a civilization that falls apart due to culture, phenotype, and language being so fractured and different that it's impossible to work because of an inability to communicate or empathize with other tribes.

>>51631490
It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with poor trash criminals, including white trash morons who get pissed about pressing 1 for English but speak the language about as well as a lolcat.
>beat your wife
dindu nuffin
>drunk in public
dindu nuffin
>accidentally shot your brother because you're inbred retards
dindu nuffin
>caught with pounds of meth
dindu nuffin

>>51635353
>It was not mocking a black and white issue, only in the sense that it was literally a black issue,

We're discussing "dindu" in the context of /tg/, not its actual origins. People use "dindu" on /tg/ to describe orcs because they don't like them and rather than discuss the circumstances, they simplify matters and turn it into black and white.

Anons? Honest question: if a "monstrous" race turns to actually be just one particular faction/subgroup of their race and held up as a bunch of fuckups who need a good beating by the rest of their species, does that make them into "dindus"?

Like, say you get sick of the orc raiders coming out of the wasteland, go on an expedition to find their source, and find a thriving orc culture beyond who are nothing like the drug-addled demon-worshipping bersekers you normally face. When you ask about it, the orcs explain those orcs you've been fighting are outcasts who got thrown out into the wasteland to die, and they're horrified to hear that they've been attacking you - they though the wasteland went on forever, they had no idea that there were other people on the opposite side of it.

>>51638618
>all the greater Orc society did wrong was not bother to actually map the area

It's funny how apathy can cause more problems than malice, but still always feels more "right."

>>51629545
>How do you round out a villain race
You DON'T. "Rounded-out race" and "villain race" are mutually exclusive. It's not fun to slay the raider if you know he's got four kids to feed.

>>51629545
Give them their own moral system that's not "what we're doing is bad but we're not all like that, I swear".
Perhaps, like the aztecs, their actions are necessary for theological reasons. It's up to you if those reason are real or not.
Or if not religious, make it political. I have gnolls that are traditionally desert nomads, and they like to raid for purely economic reasons. But then there's some who are fascists, modeled a bit on southern African post-colonial nations, who have kicked out the Elven colonists and are forging their own nation, largely by conquering smaller groups of gnolls. The more civilized world fucking hates those guys, since they killed the elves and fucked things up, but there's no moral problem from their own point of view.

File: 1407130679743.jpg (67 KB, 800x430)

67 KB JPG

>>51633899
Check yer privilege.

>>51631328
>medieval societies
>military expansion
Nigga what the fuck are you talking about?

>>51633478
Sounds shit desu.

>>51633803
See, there's a reason he used that terminology that you ignored. Because what he didn't want is exactly what you just described.

>>51630821
Well, they drove home the point that the entire generation other than Frostwolves and all but one Mag'har were basically evil, and even when given a choice decide to be evil.

Shit, they basically had Thrall going Boondocks MLK on the kids that want to be like their parents as a plot point.

>>51635890
>muh noble savage
eh

>>51634468
In ideals, in gods, in garb, in war, and in every way that defines a people. Paint them green and how much really separated them from orcs? Besides not hating themselves quite as much.

>>51638759
Noble savage? Not in the slightest.

It's a brutal meritocracy, meaning usually failures are beat, broken, or killed.

There is nothing noble about it.

>>51631699
It tried to do WAAAAAAY too many fucking stories at once, to the point that if you aren't a loremaster anyway a lot of it is "Who the fuck is that? What the fuck are those things? What the fuck was that? Why is this happening? What about that guy, isn't he important? I forgot that guy's name, is he even someone we've met? What the FUCK just happened and why?".

Not to mention Garona looked terrible. They should have committed to her being half-Draenei and gone full CG with her.

They really needed to split the movie, shown the horde side THEN the alliance side without mixing them in order to clear up the narrative direction. Not to mention the parts the fans wanted the most, wandering around Karazahn during Khadgar's apprenticeship and being introduced to the Clan leaders never happened.

>>51629545

Why are you all being retarded? There's a simple answer to this.

Just make them people.

>>51629545
To be fair, the Blood Elves weren't dindus in Warcraft 3, though the racist humans were pretty retarded. The Illidari were actually a pretty solid faction of clearly not evil but clearly not good people, they would've been a solid addition to WoW if they'd been treated well.

But that's WoW in general, in the end none of Warcraft's lore was really treated well by the game unless it was forgotten.

File: khajit kid.jpg (401 KB, 1600x900)

401 KB JPG

>>51632752
Yeah, but then you just end up with Game Of Thrones.

I want a mix of different sapient species.

So go TES. Anyone can be a prick, anyone can be good. You have racial politics by homeland, but you can find any race doing just about anything as civilians and soldiers anywhere. Other than the Thalmor areas, because fuck the Thalmor.

>>51638804
Yep, noble savage.

>>51638827
And the Forsaken too could've been a morally interesting faction, except they were working on super AIDS from day 1.

Instead of "undead trying to find their place in their old homeland, opposed by their former friends and family and the undead scourge that created them" we got "little Lich Queen no one holds responsible, unless it's to create more pain in the ass faction conflict."

File: VlYRRdB.jpg (121 KB, 960x600)

121 KB JPG

>>51638827
I think what World of Warcraft did best was the Dark Iron Dwarves.

They were an interesting race hinted at existing in earlier lore but expanded on mostly in WoW.
Good enemies and interesting when you met a friendly one. Their dungeons were PACKED with lore and shit to do, and even in Cataclysm where everything was fucked up they still managed to keep the Dark Iron storyline flowing and interesting.

>>51638854
We have entirely different ideas of what a noble savage is.

File: 9c9fcc55e1d4c088d47887117(...).jpg (31 KB, 500x431)

31 KB JPG

>>51638866
They had Forsaken totally not interested in super AIDS, but that plot was kind of dropped outside of neutral factions.

If your Forsaken is horde, they mostly end up pieces of shit.

In fact, the ONLY Horde one I can remember who wasn't awful is the inkeeper of Brill and she actually took a comic series to redeem.

>>51638804
Honesty and consistent adherence to a strict moral code are typically viewed as noble. It's just their moral code is brutal and savage. Hence, noble savage.

>>51638877
Well, it seems you think "noble" means something very specific morally, though I'm not entirely sure what. In the context of the phrase, though, it doesn't really anyway. It means simply that there's some exagerated ideal, some way when you can say "look, these people despite being inferior to us and general barbaric (savage) are actually totally more pure and better than us (noble)". In your case, the snowflakey meritocracy is noble, the brutality is savage. It fits the normal usage of the term to a fucking tee.

File: wowx4-artwork-186-full.jpg (439 KB, 935x1200)

439 KB JPG

>>51638867
I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to post this artwork.

>>51638925
How is a meritocracy snowflakey?

>>51638957
To be fair, "only the strongest survive" and also having a large population is a bit odd.

Its one thing to have a difficult life and trials leading into adulthood, its another to actually have a large amount of unfortunate death, duels, war, and not be a small clan at the most.

>>51638957
Meritocracy as a concept isn't, that specific implementation is.

Since you ignored the rest of the post, does that mean you rescind your previously implied disagreement?

>>51638999
I'm not the anon you're arguing with, I simply objected to a meritocracy based on physical strength being called snowflakey. It's like the most basic form of social organization, practiced even by, or possibly moreso by animals

You shouldn't assume every anon that isn't you is the same person

I've personally had success creating "villainous" races/factions by ripping off the steppe hordes of Central Asia. On the one hand, they have no respect for settled peoples and think that they are weak. But on the other hand, the nomads need to raid and pillage to acquire social status and wealth.

They are anathema to the values of most civilized people, and that makes them "evil." But they have a fully functioning society behind it all, though it is a little parasitic thanks to the raiding aspect.

>>51635409
>Rome
>not leading to anything interesting or lasting
Nigga are you retarded?

>>51639064
Do they civilize when they manage to take over territory off their steppes?

>>51629545
Backstory for a D&D setting:

Orcs were mostly Gruumsh followers and had their more or less standard tribal structure. Which were starting to bite them in the ass because around them different kingdoms and empires were starting to sprout. Sometimes as a direct answer to orc pillage, rape, burn policy. Over time they were pushed further and further away and many got into slavery. Countries around their lands used them as source of cheap labour raiding the tribes incapable to really cooperate for a long enough amount of time.

It was going for a pretty long time until a slave rebellion started. Half-orc leader of said rebellion made an army out of slaves and fucked off into orc lands hoping for a better future. He was really disappointed by the state of things there. So he beat orcs too and in the process killed around 3/4 of Gruumsh priesthood and establishing a new standard of worship and ideals. Orcs now were worshipping a pantheon of Gruumsh, Kord and Heironeous.

After new king solidified his rule he made sure to crush all the countries around his new kingdom which didn't make him the most loveable guy in the foreign nations. But orcs were able to create a new pretty powerful country that still stands even a century after first king died.

Just look at the villains throughout history, They are as many and varied as they come. Take the Ottomans, an expansionist empire using slaves as an elite military unit; the Spanish, foreign invaders intent on stripping the land of all the wealth they can get; take a look at the 15th century Holy Roman Empire with the villain as the emperor trying to reassert his dominance over the princes; the possibilities are limitless.

>>51639042
Ah, sorry for being an ass then. It's not the core concept but his notions of it.

First of all
>everyone is born equal
Everyone? Sparta is the most famous historical egalitarian military society in history, and a bit snowflakey itself. They still had gender differences and a slave race, and the spartan men had different prestige according to which school/camp their fathers got them into, and their wealth wasn't so much abolished as it was put on hold until they got old. What culture was truly born equal? The closest you get is countries that meme it like the US, but it's not really true ever.
>usually failures are beat, broken, or killed.
This just isn't practical. All this killing and maiming decreases the population. And what's a failure anyway? If someone can't do his job, isn't it the fault of whatever superior let him get the job?

>It's like the most basic form of social organization, practiced even by, or possibly moreso by animals
You need to brush up on your ethology.

>>51639076
Your choice. Historically they didn't annex territory from settled peoples, the hordes just forced them to become vassals/tributaries. Take a look at the relationship between Muscovy and the Golden Horde in the 14th and 15th centuries for more details.

File: centurion.jpg (78 KB, 413x550)

78 KB JPG

>>51639147
>No mention of Mongols, Moors, Vikings, Persians, Arabs, etc.

>villain races

Seriously, don't. If Conan didn't need them, neither do you.

File: Orcs_Are_White.png (1.08 MB, 2477x743)

1.08 MB PNG

>>51629545
>implying

>>51639187
I just tried to pick a few examples at random, there are villains and potential villains all over the world.

Other good ones include:
The Barbary Corsairs (technically moors but they aren't usually thought of by anyone)
The Tang Dynasty
The Mughals
The Manchu/Qing vs. the Ming (pick whatever side you want, remember the Mandate of Heaven as well as Chinese imperialism during the Tang, Song, and Ming dynasties)
The Kingdom of Ayutthaya (later known as Siam) vs the Kingdom of Khmer (Khmer became a voluntary protectorate under the French to avoid being absorbed into Siam. That is why Cambodia exists as a nation today)
The Habsburgs

History has loads of cool stuff.

>>51638915
>>51638925

I have never heard of noble being defined in this manner.

Noble has always to me had either some inherent goodness to it, or an inherent sense of importance.

So the noble savage is a savage that has some inherent goodness to it.

Orcs are not that, there is nothing noble to them. They are absolutely barbaric.

>>51639389
>no inherent goodness to a meritocracy
I see. Your problem isn't a misunderstanding of words, it's a misunderstanding of morality outside of your own personal paradigm.

>>51639389
Honesty is considered a good trait

Strict moral codes are often considered to have inherent importance

I'm still seeing no conflict

>>51639406
There is no inherent goodness in a political method.

You can have a good meritocracy. This isn't what orcs practice.

When you are born, you're a pathetic mewling thing that inherently knows the cruelty of life, something screaming in defiance of existence.

From that moment, life beats you and breaks you. You either get stronger, or you die. It is not forgiving, and neither or Orcs. Infant mortality rate is high, but orcs reproduce quickly from captured slaves and other orcs.

Only by your own strength and cunning can you defy life's cruelty and exist in spite of it.

Orcs are barbarians, not savages.

http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.ca/2016/10/tolkien-orc-barbarian-savage-and-sun.html

People referencing Noble Savage and getting it massively wrong: read Rousseau you goddamn chucklefucks, he's the originator of the idea.

It has nothing to do with being a wannabe sparta, it's the opposite of it.

>>51638867
I totally agree. Even though I'm not a fan of the whole Ragnaros controlled aspect and Molten Core itself as central to their society, the Dark Iron Dwarves were built up and explored well even with those elements through most of WoW.

I can think of a few other WoW original races or just non-faction races which weren't treated as badly as well, but I think every single playable race has been gutted by WoW's storyline.

>>51639229
What a shit screencap .

Yeah Orcs are niggers is a shit meme, but orcs in WoW being based on anything real in that sense is retarded as fuck. Orcs in WoW are based on Orcs in media such as Tolkien, Warhammer, and DnD, and developed over the course of 4 games and two decades according to the directions Blizzard wanted their story-line to go.

The analogies in that screencap have been stretched more than their original poster's asshole. It's pretty funny in a cringe sense.

Make them violent savages with warrior culture and spirit worshiping. You don't have to justify them, not every fantasy setting is a libshit paradise.

>>51639309
Remember that if there's fantasy Nazis you can switch em for fantasy Imperial Japanese Army soldiers for a change of inspiration. Fantasy Nazis are always overused.

>>51638426
Thank you. All working class/poor Americans have the same stupid culture; the only difference is their secondary sport and music.

No, Jethro, you aren't a fucking pure-bloodied white ubermensch; you're a mud-blooded pig farmer who descended from Scots-Irish pig farmers that got pushed into the mountains because WASPs didn't want them stinking up their civilization with their superstitions and slaw-jawed spoonerisms.

I've been playing Orcs as Soviet Russian and the lone insane human kingdom as McCarthy era America for years now.

It's not that hard.

>>51639474
Protip: You're being baited into admitting that survival of the fittest is the most noble and only good.

It's an old /pol/ tactic so they can say that you support the extinction of the "lesser races".

>>51639074
It didn't.
All the sheepfucking Celtshits stealing Roman tools and knowledge isn't Rome leading to anything interesting or lasting.

That's like saying that Nintendo should take credit for Halo's success because they saved the American console market.

>>51629545

Villain race is an incredibly stupid concept unless they are something completely different with completely different values and biology. Like orcs in Warhammer who are pretty much mushrooms programmed to expand and conquer everyone else.

A human like race locked into evil alignment is a crappy DnD concept invented so kids won't feel bad when they slaughter goblins in their games.

>>51638696
>French dindu nuffin! They good knights!
>Ottomans dindu nuffin! They good janissaries!
>English dindu nuffin! They good longbowmen!

>>51629545
A race lacking social cohesion and tech but somehow being a credible military threat is weak shit. If you're using your villain race the way orcs are often used, access to tech or social cohesion (even if it's temporary or coming from the outside) is kind of a must.

Also if you want to make them feel evil give them a specific cultural taboo to break and use it often.

On all counts Tolkien does pretty well. Orcs and trolls eat human flesh. They capture anybody and they bicker about how to cook and eat them until Sauron steps in and they start bickering about whether to cook and eat them. Sauron's imposing order from the top down, but orcs in Mordor still wistfully talk about the good old days and think about ditching the boss (to eat people, IIRC). Saruman's arming them with crazy shit, and breeding stronger more loyal orcs to bully the rest into cooperation.

Dude also takes pains to write scenes of orcs being evil well. If you go back and read the scenes I mention the orcs/trolls are half charming just by dint of their character and strong prose. Characters in stories can charm an audience without doing a lick of anything right if they're just written well enough.

>>51629545
Evil is in the eye of the beholder desu.
Look at the ottoman empire for example it had people of all races and thought it was their right to conquer and bring their view of governing on their subjects, there were times when they thought europeans were barbarians while the europeans thought they were evil heathens bent on destroying christianity.

>>51635378
That was marvellously said.

>>51642618
>>51638426
This is nonsense. African American ebonics is a thing even if it's sometimes co-opted by white americans; its distinctly African in its linguistic roots.

>No, Jethro, you aren't a fucking pure-bloodied white ubermensch; you're a mud-blooded pig farmer who descended from Scots-Irish pig farmers that got pushed into the mountains because WASPs didn't want them stinking up their civilization with their superstitions and slaw-jawed spoonerisms.
He's SO salty, everyone look.

>>51642784
The French and the English experienced very little military expansionism in the Middle Ages and the Ottomans were almost entirely a modern era polity

>>51638784
We went full circle

>>51633671
Good idea, but seems hard to execute properly

>>51638735
OH GOD FUCKING DAMN THERE'S NO SATISFYING YOU PEOPLE
USE A BEHELIT TO MAKE GOD HAND GIVE YOU A PERFECT SETTING BECAUSE YOU CLEARLY AIN'T GONNA STOP BITCHING

>>51633923
Yew, that's the point

>>51638854
Is non-noble savage just "ooga booga kill murder" for you?

>>51629545
>>51631055
I actually have an idea for an orc-like race what was created by an evil race of demons to be their soldiers, because they are strong and fit, but cannot do magic at all, which the demons use to command and intimidate them with. The demons are then defeated and the orc-likes find themselves without masters or a real social structure of their own, so they become very individualistic and generally hedonistic, because they see the pleasures and comforts that civilization can offer them, turning many into mercernaries so they can spend their money on good food, quality ale and exotic drugs.

In addition I have this idea that they do not have souls, and having a soul is the basis for casting spells, be gathering mana from being viruous - so they can't be spellcasters, but they can surely be virtuous. That also means that they are barred from entering the afterlife, so this further reinforces hedonism with them.

I figure that with a race like this you can frame them as monstrous to humans, because they do not have the same considerations about life as regular mortals - this can then mean that their might be forces in civilised societies that seek to eradicate the orc-likes, or maybe pretenders to the throne hire them and try to make them a special warrior caste in society. Others might try to have the gods intervene an grant the orc-likes souls, so as to be proper mortals (either out of their own faith, or to make the orc-likes start acting in a responsible way, because then orc-likes would have to care about doing good) or maybe just a single one, questing through the world to gain a soul for himself, so that he can enjoy the afterlife or become a paladin or maybe he wants to master the arcane arts. And this quest for a soul could be what turns them to do bad things because they are desperate to gain magic or passage into the afterlife.

>>51643846
Name a black area that has the level of Detroit and isn't Detroit?

>>51643695
This is pretty similar to orks in 40k.

>>51629545
I don't understand the compulsion to humanize them. Why not give horde distinct societal shit instead of just "green/orange/dead" humans?

>>51638426

Propensity for crime has to do with race. Blacks commit more crime globally, in every black population, than whites & asians.

>>51643931
society is pretty human

>>51638987

Why? The spartans used eugenics and meritocracy and still had a powerful city state.

>>51643868
Cape Town :D

>>51633899
'haha nice no true scotsman fallacy, nice ad hominem, nice "grabbing my head and putting a knee through my face" fallacy'

File: HuttNEGAS.png (876 KB, 825x1330)

876 KB PNG

>>51643846
Hello /pol/! Don't you have some interracial porn to be fapping to?

File: mfw no argument.png (66 KB, 495x370)

66 KB PNG

>>51644098

>>51643904
To a degree I think, but with the 40K orks after the old ones are gone, the orks keep doing what they are 'programmed' to do, my idea was that thier ways are changing gradually at least.

>>51631002
>ay yo man dat boy dindu nuffin e wuz goin 2 collig n sheeeeeit

>>51638598
People use 'dindu' to describe """"""""""deep"""""""""" orcs because they're tired of people using 'itz dey cultcha' as an excuse for raping, slaving, and reaving.

>>51643962
What did he mean by this?

>>51629545
Either make them a black&white morality villain race or don't make them a villain race. Any other solution is stupid, and this half-assed attempts of having "evil but not evil" is what generates all this dumb dindu talking.

I love warcraft 3 and Thrall if you isolate the game, but for the Warcraft world to make some ense orcs should have stayed pure evil. It's how they were presented both in 3rd and 1st person and absolute evil is something that exists in this world. A race like let's say trolls could've been better for what they tried to do with orcs.

In my setting my orcs are very much based on Wc3 orcs. Total savages, but just like humans can be total savages. But they were always like that. Their human allies kinda fear them because they're weird but there's some mutual respect. Their human enemies consider them monsters, but a good american considered the japanese to be monsters in WW2 too. Neither Japanese or my orcs were ever a villain race.

>>51638745
>hey guys how do we show not all orcs are bad?
>why don't we make the orcs refuse demon corruption?
>sure that sounds good
>and also make them attack the Alliance
>durr that'll show how good orcs can be, you are so smart

>>51629545
Think viking, no regret, it's not "da man" that forced them to act the way they do, they chosed to be like that for glory.

>>51645840
Can't do that, anon, that will make them "dindus", didn't you read >>51644373?
>whole thread started off /pol/ bait, remains /pol/ bait
>when you rely on /pol/lack memes, that makes you a /pol/lack

>>51644456
The Japanese were monsters in WW2 though. Sexual slavery, Nanking, Unit 731, the use of biological weapons, and the Three Alls Policy.

Though to be fair the Mericans probably didn't know about most of those at the time.

>>51629545
In my setting I just made them self aware of their situation. You canconly genocide for so long until you realize youre running out of resources and that neighboring nations might be better off as allies than targets. While this might eliminate the evil part of their culture it does in fact make the political part of their story interesting. Especially when the nightmares that exist on your borders suddenly want to offer trade.

>>51629545
You're worse than people who use the term "red pill" to mean "explain".

File: nice trips 2.gif (878 KB, 500x211)

878 KB GIF

>>51642666
>Satan offering expedient advice on bait

>>51633671
>if you become what they have become, they will have had true victory.
Fuck off Trudeau

>>51633803
Quality. This is that.

>>51635378
Well fuck, sign me up for the omni-druid.

>>51629545
Tolkien's orcs were unredeemable.
They are monsters.
Evil incarnate.

>>51649756
I thought it was implied that, if an orc were shielded from Sauron and actually raised in the company of elves, they would turn back into an elf?

>>51648711
Lucifer's a good guy. He gave us freewill when Yahweh wouldn't.

>>51643695
>so they become very individualistic and generally hedonistic, because they see the pleasures and comforts that civilization can offer them, turning many into mercernaries so they can spend their money on good food, quality ale and exotic drugs.
Link your f-list pls

>>51650229
Goddamnit this always fucking triggers me.

No, that doesn't even make sense. If you believe the creation story then you believe that Yahweh looked at his creation and saw that it was good and complete. Then Lucifer tempts Eve to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and she does, and then when Adam sees that she doesn't die he also eats the fruit.

The entire reason Yahweh put the tree in Eden was so that they would have the choice to obey or rebel. Without the option then Yahweh really would have been withholding free will, but the option was there. Lucifer didn't give free will, Yahweh did.

>>51651338
>Goddamnit this always fucking triggers me.
I was waiting for someone like you. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

>>51629545
But the Forsaken, especially Sylvanas, are arguably the biggest threat to the world after the Burning Legion and even the rest of the Horde knows that, if they weren't so busy sucking off Vol'Jin there is no way she would have been put in charge. Likewise, the Blood Elves are dindus. The last remotely fucked up thing they did was enslave that Naaru, but they've since completely reformed their paladin order and Liadrin spends most of her time giving A'dal a handjob in Shattrath to make up for it.

To answer your question: Don't make the entire race just evil? Have there be an evil ruler or chief or whatever who whipped a large section of the population into a frenzy.

>>51638827

The Blood Elves went from demonic leftovers of the Scourge steamrolling their kingdom with Kael'thas as their representative to being the totally not demonic Horde player base booster with Kael'thas as the leader of a spin-off faction the other BEs didn't support. Their poorly handled joining of the Horde doesn't help here either.

>>51638866
>>51638901

The Forsaken were a playable version of the Scourge from early on. This might have worked if they hadn't ended up shoehornin the Forsaken into the Horde when the Horde was supposed to have stopped being the demon summoning villains they were before WC3.

>>51631055
Reminds me of something that happened on a group I play with.
It was pretty much a mix of how Ganishka made his army with Souren Araya's apartment.
Basically a demon lord had taken over a city on which he laid a spell that made everything that died on there ressurect on the sunrise of the other day and also kept it "separated" from the outside world.
He then had his demonic minions haul people of sorceror bloodlines, who were then used as breeding stock for a army of halfdemons.
During the night all women were hanged in the town square, torn in pieces during childbirth and them ressurected in the other day for another round.
The town itself was a hellhole of demons, ghosts, undeath body parts moving out of sheer spite and angry, scared sorcerors with a poor hang on their powers lashing out against anything that moved.

>>51629545
>ctrl+f ultima
>0 results
For shame /tg/

Ultima 6 did it the best.
In the Ultima series the Player character is The Avatar, a religious and heroic figure that teached the eight virtues to the world.
In Ultima V, when the underworld starts to intersect with the real world The Avater is summoned (from the real world) to save Lord British (who dissapeared while leading a expedition to the Underworld). He promptly descents to the Underworld, save Lord British and along the way takes the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom.
In Ultima VI the world is being raided by Gargoiles from the Underworld, there's a raging war and the gargoyles are almost winning.
The Avatar is summoned to Britannia, but by the Gargoyles themselves who plan in killing him. He is saved in the last minute by Lord British and the Companions.
Your quest, of course, is to save Britannia.
Turns out the Gargoyles aren't evil as initially believed. Rather they see the Avatar as the "False Prophet" the one who raided their homeland, killed scores of their people and stole the most sacred artifact of theirs (The Codex). In fact, without the Codex the Gargoyle's world is falling into chaos.
You win the game by making peach between the two races.

>>51650229

He was a good boy?

>leftie thought police itt getting triggered
Have you cucks actually ever heard blacks speak. They always say i dindu nuffins. Hell theres a video that shows they teach their kids to say it.

Anyway orcs = nigs is retarded

Finally the libtard censorship on 4chan is getting out of hand

>>51650229
Depends on whatever you see Yahweh or Lucifer as being the demiurgic figure really, it can go either way.

>>51653167
A very good boy! He dindu nuffin!

>>51645974
But the Japanese, in general, are not a monster race. Mainly because they're humans and we're all monsters if they are.

The point is orcs should be able to do all those atrocities without being a race of evil beings.

>>51653571
>implying humans aren't a monster race

>>51651338
How can you call it free will when you don't know that rebellion is "evil" and obeying is "good"?

It's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

If Adam and Eve didn't know that disobeying is evil, then it was inevitable that they would eventually eat it. They would have no reason not to.

Trying to force people who are incapable of the concept of morality to make a moral choice is dumb as hell.

>>51629545
Whiny Alliance fags are the worst.

Either prior ownership matters and conquest is illegitimate, in which case ALL LAND IS TROLL LAND and the Alliance can't whine about the Horde owning Lordaeron or claiming territory for its own use since the entire world belonged to Trolls at one point including all the elves

OR

It doesn't matter whose ancestral land it is, it matters who holds it by right of conquest. In which case the Horde's lands are rightfully kept and its bases in Ashenvale, Lordaeron and literally everywhere else across three planets at this point are completely legitimate.

"Waah Orcs are Dindus" cries the angry baby. It's not their fault humans are the crippled retard children of flesh-cursed Vrykul and despite their titanic heritage never managed to defeat the naturally evolved Trolls until Mutant-Trolls turned around and helped them fight their own ancestors. Humans in Warcraft are so garbage it's not even funny.

>>51638426
>>51642618
>hate the rich
>champion against underprivileged peoples
>WHITE TRASH
>OHH INCEST
>HAHA JETHRO
>ABUSIVE
>METH SMOKIN
>MUH GUNS
You seriously think everything under 20k a year from Kentucky to Mississippi is some kind of Hellbilly nightmare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXghKHHzlXQ

you people really do disgust me.
Kill yourselves.

File: 1443916871681.jpg (10 KB, 240x280)

10 KB JPG

>>51638678
>It's not fun to slay the raider if you know he's got four kids to feed.
Shouldn't've had four kids then.

>>51653571
>But the Japanese, in general, are not a monster race. Mainly because they're humans and we're all monsters if they are.
Definitely. Animu and mango is too gud.

File: 1432475908717.png (17 KB, 552x585)

17 KB PNG

>>51654205

Gold star post, nigga.

>>51631776
That's pretty fucking stupid.

>>51629545
Have the villain race be a corrupted offshoot of a benevolent/benign race. Like the Drow being demon worshiping baby sacrificing sadistic psychopathic offshoots of regular normie run of the mill surface elves.

I mean shit, Tolkien pulled it off perfectly in Lord of the Rings with his orcs.

File: 1481305927345.jpg (132 KB, 525x810)

132 KB JPG

>>51656241
>tfw drow are literally pretty orcs

>>51639229
>White nationalists are proud of being unintelligent, violent barbarians
This doesn't surprise me in the least.

>>51632714
That's freaky as fuck.
fucking noice

>>51629545

buy making sure no race are dindus.

>>51629545
They are (sub)humans and have a reason for their actions. Germans helped destroy the Roman Empire, Vikings raided and invaded across Europe, Mongols conquered much of Asia. They had their reasons and the same should be true of your villain races.

>Global cooling has made farming in the north increasingly difficult so Orcs must raid southern lands for wealth and food
>Goblin migrations have displaced the Orcs who were offered food and shelter in exchange for military service but were mistreated by their employers and revolted
>Orc warlord managed to finally unite the Orc peoples and has decided to direct his efforts towards getting revenge towards the empires that tended to play tribes against each other

>>51654205
>Being so ass devestated over the Horde being shite you have to pretend trolls matter at all

You went full fucking "we wuz kings n shit", trolls are a complete non factor in anything now and despite all of the shit you fling the trolls still got their shit pushed in.

Warcraft 2 Orcs are best Orcs. Best clans, best lore.

>>51654205

>pretending Trolls haven't repeatedly lost wars andnother battles against outsiders to the point that they live in huts or forests.

>pretending Orcs don't play the victims

>pretending the Horde didn't have the Alliance's help against Garrosh and didn't get crushed after that thanks to Varian being a cuck

WE

>>51656625

>pretending the Nordics didn't have a bigger impact on civilization's worthy development than Niggers.

>>51655480
That's it. The orc-like villain race is well known for their weird moral code, their alien traditions and their genocidal past. But they're also well known for producing the best entertainment for kids and manchildren.

We fixed your villain race, OP.

>>51654901

You're talking to a Jew or Hillary voter.

File: 19aef3eb09192ad8-venomchoco.jpg (140 KB, 994x921)

140 KB JPG

>>51633910
>unless you can provide another source for this need that involves less conflict

>>51642630
Communist Kender. They don't see what they do as theft since they literally have no concept of personal property. Good news, you can also rob them blind and they won't understand enough to care unless they were actively using whatever you took at the time.

>>51654205
>WE WUZ EMPIRES AND SHIT
t.roll

>>51629762
Military expansion and slavery (even mistreated peasants and servs) are more or less the standard in medieval times. These aren't even valid points to claim any faction would be evil.

File: 1456089121070.jpg (3.68 MB, 3960x2640)

3.68 MB JPG

>>51660500

>>51660621
>sticks and stones
>weak magic
>ass kicked by smaller and weaker version of trolls

File: 39a1b627e92cc41c185cc64bb(...).jpg (328 KB, 600x936)

328 KB JPG

>>51660731
>Weakened due to killing giant sentient tumors, bugs and elements
>Parts of your tribe turn into elves from the magic wound in the world

>>51650024
Nope.
It'd be still corrupted.
Only they'd be confused without a leader.

t. huge fan of The Silmarillion

File: IMG_0118.jpg (61 KB, 526x395)

61 KB JPG

>>51633671
>f you become what they have become, they will have had true victory
That's retarded.
Killing violent spastics in self defence is not becoming what they are.
Even if you do, how is it any consolation to the dead?

File: reeeeee.png (18 KB, 217x220)

18 KB PNG

>>51629762
>Rome
>Evil

>>51632714
Consider this stolen

File: WE.jpg (71 KB, 600x797)

71 KB JPG

>>51660802
>>51660621
>>51654205

File: f5e057aa62d6a8b3afed360af(...).jpg (642 KB, 780x1169)

642 KB JPG

>>51660802
I always liked that in WoW elves are basically corrupted trolls. As far as I know this is the only setting which takes 'elves degenerate into orcs' of LoTR and turn it upside down.

File: Zandalari_Prospect.jpg (53 KB, 450x500)

53 KB JPG

>>51661290
Zandalari are almost literally the elves of trolls
>Stand upright
>Strong magic
>Glowing eyes
>Actual architecture and culture
Sundering fucked them right up

>>51656241
Drow aren't really a great example because they're constantly being fucked with and manipulated by their patron deity. If Lolth wasn't playing her high priestesses off of each other and deliberately inciting betrayal between them all the time they could potentially learn to not be evil.

The seeds have already been sown for their eventual transformation into dindus by the cults of Vhaeraun and Elistraee.

>>51664778
Don't use Forgotten Realms Drow then. Use Greyhawk Drow. The ones that worship Demon Lords, Lolth chief among them.

>>51661381
They were the priest cast and owned the place with a shitload of magic.
Other than that standing upright and glowing eyes are pretty useless to contraproductive to living in the woods like many other tribes do.

Also: All WC trolls are damn good at magic and build shit.

>>51629545
Have them be like Hobgoblins. Being more 'military' than 'rampaging horde' you can channel whatever war-like culture with a strong tradition of military service and conquest, ranging from romans to aztecs. The possibilities are endless.

>>51629545
Don't hire Chris Metzen?

(p.s. Omnics dindunuffin)

>>51667837
>Don't hire Chris Metzen?
Dude can't write a story without LOLCORRUPTION. Look, for the orcs it was at least mildly unique back then but the guy's writing turned into some one trick pony bullshit.

>>51660322
>Good news, you can also rob them blind and they won't understand enough to care
They're communist so they have nothing worth stealing though.

>>51667908
Well in a D&D setting surely they steal magic item, no?

>>51635378
How about the lich King, gifting his deceased people a day to be with their loved ones, once a year. Where people dont need to work jobs they don't want as the lich King has converted his skeleton army into hard working workers, this gives the people more time to become the best of what they can be. In time the lichlord's kingdom has become the most beautiful and advanced kingdom, where the best of the best come from; a kingdom protected by the best wizards and warriors along with the century old DOOMKNIGHTS, a frightful name for the most selfless guardians of the kingdom.

>>51631328
When it's your kingdom that's being expanded on, yes absolutely it is horrible and evil.

When it's your kingdom expanding it's onto the territory of your old enemies who had it coming or into the wilderness to bring the light of god to a bunch of savages.

Even ye olden people had enough sense to know that violence without a reason is kind of shitty. They still do it, a lot, but at least most people gave a justification even if it's just "fook those land-stealing English blackguards!" or "God wants us to do it!"

Sorry OP, Papa Blizzard will never love your bland as fuck faction as much as the dindus.

I don't blame them either, the only time Team Blu was ever remotely interesting was when they were a bunch of scrappy, underdog rapefugees wandering lost in Night Elf land and forced into a tense partnership with the Horde. After that they were back to being the LG superpower faction again and despite the desperate attempts of giving them some edge with Varian and Greymayne they're still just so goddamn boring.

>>51631079
v ery true