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>No link to Imperial Army
Dethpicable.

>>49688522
Last thread.
>>49650510

Can someone else whip up a summary for the last thread? I missed the majority.

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Alex, what is the plan for the Strelky, Mad Cats, and Rosskar in the Hektor Heresy?

>>49688676

Rosskar is the site of a major battle in the Rebellion, with a powerful battlegroup assaulting the planet. War rages across its surface for over a year before a relief force arrives to liberate the planet. However billions are dead and much of the planet is in ruins.

Think the WWII Eastern Front in space.

>>49688582
Summary of Last thread

>Expanding on the new VIIth Legion: the Crimson Eagles. Writefaggotry regarding their Primarch.

>Scattered writefaggotry of various subjects.

>Discussion on the Imperial Cult, its origins and growth, as well as the reactions of the various Imperial institutions towards it.

>D.E.G. made a chat channel >>49678772

>Discussions on the Vetrovnak's incursions into Imperial Space and the possibility of the S.O.B. tailor-made to fight them, at last response, the Sisters of Silence will most likely function as their Imperial foil.

>The Entombed Legion page on 1d4chan has been overhauled. Current reaction(s), little as they are, have been favorable.

>>49688747
Is the relief force general IA or is it specifically Mad Cats?

>>49688759

Actually it was the Steel Marshals. No idea now, the Marshals are on the other side of the Galaxy at the time.

Is the Voidwatcher still fluffed as being Griffith from Berserk except less gay?

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>>49688798
No, he is currently being re-fluffed to be even gayer than Griffith.

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AYO hol up

Hol up

HOL UP

IS YOU

IS YOU SAYIN

IS YOU BE SAYIN

WE WUZ PRIMARCHS N SHEEEIIIT?

>>49688822

HH is full of Black Primarchs. We have at least three.

So I need some help.

Ive lain out Caligore's past Pretty well, no?

But I don't know what to really do with him after that. I know how the Liberators, later the Crimson Eagles act and fight, but were they fight, who they fight with, and the EXACTLY how they go traitor.

>>49688817

Your pic looks like Fulgrim though

>>49688676
>>49688759
Currently up in the air.

Cataphracts, hopefully, get to be in charge of the defense of Terra. Half the Strelky go with them. The other half sit on Rosskar, which is attacked as part of a wider effort to destabilize the Segmentum Pacificus.

I talked with Lumey about the Void Angels relieving Rosskar, but that didn't really have the weight that the Marshals relieving it did. Void Angels wouldn't really care about the destruction of Rosskar, Marshals would, but Marshals are now no where near Pacificus.

>>49688832
Really? I only know of Lumey, who are the other two?

>>49688836
That wasn't really a coherent thought.

I'm tired.

But basically I'm asking for some help fluffing

>>49688848

Move them to Tempestus, and they could well end up reaching Pacificus by trying to by-pass the storm from shielding the Warmaster's holdings from external relief.

>>49688839
It is a picture of Fulgrim, meant to serve as an example of the absolute minimum level of faggotry to be expected from the re-fluffed Voidwatcher. Hope that cleared that up for ya.

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>>49688786
Why not the Silver Cataphracts or Void Angels?

>>49688832
And yet they commit a majority of the heresies.

>>49688848
That answers the above. So how about the Al-Sherar forces come to relieve? In the Markian Corps and Goda pages I have an empty section called "The Push" which I'm gearing up for. It's an offensive to the north led by Al-Sherar's finest *COUGH* MARKIAN CORPS! *COUGH* JKJK, it's actually Al-Sherar to gather the loyalists of Pacificus and chase out the rebels before taking the entire segmentum's strength east.

Then again, it wouldn't match the timeline I have in place if the siege of Rosskar is one year. The Push doesn't begin until after Rosskar is liberated, so another idea is that it's a simultaneous push from both north and south.

Pictured: Winter Empire, land wracked by war and famine.

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>>49688920
Shit, posted that pic in the wrong thread. Whoops!

>>49688836
>>49688855
Just give your stuff to Lumey, you'll want to get in his good graces anyway, otherwise you can kiss Caligore Goodbye

>>49688993
Oh look, it's (You) again. Here's your (You).

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>>49688920

Given Al-Sherar is very close to Rosskar, it makes sense. See the map.

>>49689027
That's what I was thinking. Pop the segmentum like a pimple.

There needs to be a Primarch, who, as he is being formally introduced to his Legion jokingly demands to meet all the women who claim all the Legionnaires as his sons.

Also, after Ullanor, when all the Primarchs are gathered together for the inauguration of the Warmaster, one of the Primarchs has to take note of all of his brothers and make a remark as to the Emperor's popularity with Terran women.

>>49689053
Golgothos would be that primarch.

>>49688993
Listem here shitfuck, I don't give a atom of a fuck about whatever drama you've fabricated with whatever autist has cucked you out of internet glory. I'm here to fluff. Now either give me some insight or go shit up another thread.

>>49689053
I could see Caligor doing that.

>>49689077
Looks like Golgothos and Caligor would be friends

>>49688920
>>49688927
Dates can be reworked, and so on. It's no big deal.

What about, uuh, hrm.

How about the Push is focused on attacking the Traitors around Rosskar, while Rosskar decides to keep the Traitors there in a honey trap? It's too grand a target to ignore, but too fortified with fucking Rosskans to take in a timely fashion.

>>49687713
Glad we're more or less on the same wave-length here.

Having slept on the idea of rebooting the Sisters of Battle for the AU, I think it might be a good idea to make them more Catholic. No, really.

There are all sorts of differences between the Imperial Cult and Catholicism, but many of them can be put down to tl;dr or Grim Darkness. One big exception is Mary. Catholicism hoovers up Isis-worshipers by giving them the Queen of Heaven. Although she's second place to the Trinity it's not so distant that controversies and heresies didn't erupt over her nature.

So I think that the AU could use a Mary-analogue - and before you run off at the mouth, I mean about as similar to Mary as the Emperor is to Jesus.

>>49689252
No. There should be a point were the OU and the AU run congruent.

I believe the split comes when the Primarchs are snatched by Chaos, nothing before hand.

>>49688798
>Griffith gay
>not asexual
>literally only driven by his dream and quest for power
I think you misunderstand Griffith.

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>>49689246
That could work. See you in about, hmm, five years then?

>>49689246
>>49688920
I'm perplexed by this discussion on Rosskar. As I understand it:

The Silver Cataphracts are on Terra and the Void Angels are at Dolsene. Both of these are pretty far away, and Gaspard Lumey doesn't even find out about the Heresy until it's breathing down his neck.

The Steel Marshals are in the south and find out about things relatively early. Roman tries to smash through the Traitor cordon but gets contained by the Lions Rampant. He decides to reposition his forces to Pacificus, hoping to collect more loyalists from that Segmentum and perhaps find out what is going on with the Void Angels. That puts him in position to relieve Rosskar and convince Gaspard to go to Terra.

Yes, he is doing rather a lot but you have to remember that Roman Albrecht is the main hero of the Heresy. It's important to build him up because the Imperium's about to lose him.

>>49689304
>I believe the split comes when the Primarchs are snatched by Chaos, nothing before hand.
Is that your only objection? Because that's a very easy condition to meet.

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>>49689355
Huh.

Okay, I can work with that.

>>49689355
Lord Autist, Mary was the father of Jesus.

I understand metaphore is difficult for those on the spectrum, however The Emperor does not have a mother, therefore, such a character would be poorly thought out.

It's an interesting thought my autistic friend, but it would not work.

>>49689434
>Mary was the father of Jesus.
I think you might want to check your notes.

>>49689602
Respect the gender Mary chooses, Lumey.

>>49689434

>Mary was the father of Jesus


GGclose.

>>49689652
I thought that was what I was doing!

None the less, some people seem to be Terribly Confused by this proposal, so let me cash out a bit more of what I had in mind. It's not necessary to radically overhaul what we have so far to wedge a Mary-type in time for the Great Crusade. And really, we wouldn't need her then.

What I think we need is a "First Saint" (Sanctis Primaris?) to show up in time for the Vetrovnak incursion - during it at the very latest. As you know, I like pulling things off the cutting room floor, and there was a neat idea submitted to Imperium Asunder that fell by the wayside. In short, the pitch was to have a powerful psychic being devoted to Order formed from the souls who died defiantly during the civil war. Due to the dangers of the Warp for such a creature, she returns to Realspace to fight against the Dark Imperium. The name given her was Maria Vespa and I think it's as good as any.

Now, we don't have a Dark Imperium, but we certainly have billions of people dying in the stubborn defence of human civilisation against the hordes of Chaos. We also have a Primarch closely tied to this sort of attitude with a religious outlook who could have visions of Maria Vespa on the eve of the Siege of Terra (and implicitly be helped by her in his last stand?). In the Hektor verse, she would probably be coming forth to do a Joan of Arc routine (perhaps at Sector-level scale) during the Scouring.

Burning at the stake optional, but we know who would order it.

And, again, as people are excitable, I don't want to have an Emperor equivalent. We don't need two, and we certainly don't want to shuffle off the golden armoured dude and replace him in the same scene. Maria Vespa wouldn't need to be much more (if anything more) than what we know in 40k as a Living Saint. She could become special in the setting simply by being the "firstest with the mostest".

Also, if anyone wants to yell at me in real-time, I am on the IRC. If you don't have an IRC client, you could get Chatzilla for Firefox, or Byrd for Chrome, or something else if you're a heretic who doesn't use those browsers. Then point your IRC client at irc.thisisnotatrueending.com and tell it to join up with the #HektorHeresy channel.

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>>49689860
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh...

Maaaaaayyyybeeeeee?

>>49688836
>>49688855
I probably should have looked at this first but it's well-known I'm a selfish jerk. Let's see:

>Where they fight
This is the easiest and hardest one to help with. The short answer is that every Legion splits up into Expedition Fleets and fights all over the Galaxy during the Great Crusade. Don't bother trying to chart their progress. Just give them an overview of how awesome they do, come up with some evocative names for their great victories, and call it good.

>who they fight with
Alongside, or against? Alongside you can reach into the bits box of Imperial Army and add notable regiments that the Primarch particularly favoured, describe the odd team-up with particular Legions (try to use it to develop key relationships for alliance/betrayal during the Heresy, otherwise it gets a bit diffuse), and convince someone to help you with Knights and Titans.

Against, I recommend that your lads have a special enmity with the Stone Men, because they do not currently have a dance partner.

>EXACTLY how they go traitor
Around new year when Hektor Heresy was looking a bit like something that Alex and I would finish writing ourselves on our own timetable, we talked about having a Traitor Legion join Hektor late, as much as two years after the Heresy begins. This is useful for the strategic concerns, because it means that Terra can be quite well-protected at the start, and it's a relatively novel course to explore. Now, I don't know if you want to go down that road, but if you do Alex is the main guy to talk to because he'll be writing how Alexandri of Rosskar scorches the earth of the Segmentum Solar and generally alienates people while fighting against the Traitors.

>>49689939
>Maaaaaayyyybeeeeee?
That's a step up from "No," so it's about two degrees better than what I was anticipating.

>>49690000
>>EXACTLY how they go traitor
>Around new year when Hektor Heresy was looking a bit like something that Alex and I would finish writing ourselves on our own timetable, we talked about having a Traitor Legion join Hektor late, as much as two years after the Heresy begins. This is useful for the strategic concerns, because it means that Terra can be quite well-protected at the start, and it's a relatively novel course to explore. Now, I don't know if you want to go down that road, but if you do Alex is the main guy to talk to because he'll be writing how Alexandri of Rosskar scorches the earth of the Segmentum Solar and generally alienates people while fighting against the Traitors.

If you combine this with the Entombed getting rekkt you end up with a war that has a sudden, massive turn of the tables halfway through. That could be real interesting.

>>49690027
Mind, I'm still completely on the fence

>>49690045
Thankfully for the Imperials, the Vardhana is bringing the Eyes back into the Loyalist fold around the same time - although they won't be assembling for large-scale action until fairly late in the game.

>>49690000
>>49690045
This sounds like the Crimson Eagles could fit that pretty damn well if you ask me.

>>49688749
>>Discussions on the Vetrovnak's incursions into Imperial Space and the possibility of the S.O.B. tailor-made to fight them, at last response, the Sisters of Silence will most likely function as their Imperial foil.

The sisters of silence would in no way be effective since the vetrovnak are blanks-but-better. To make things worse for the sisters of silence the Vetrovnak would see no reason to employ merciful methods against them since they have no value as blood sources and would only disturb their existing human stock.

>>49690951

I have a question to ask. What the hell is good against these bastards? Their Technology is far superior to Imperial standard, they're utterly immune to Psychic Powers, they seem pretty much unstoppable if they ever actually did anything more serious than a small raiding force.

>>49691044
They're psychology and social mores prevents them from ever bringing their full force to bear against humans since they're not fighting to kill them, they're fighting to capture them with no statistically significant losses on the opposing side.

>>49691116
their*

>>49691044
>>49690951
My fucking question is what good are they anyway? These fuckers horribly snowflakey

>>49691116

That's not really a weakness. Really, I have to agree with >>49691131 in that they're the most powerful and dangerous force in the setting. If they ever got off their asses, they'd kick the Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos and the Orks in the slats relatively quickly.

>>49689311

>griffith
>asexual

tell that to Casca

>>49691131
>>49691145
I'm in agreement with the others. I thought they could be fought with in some way? That doesn't seem likely.

>>49691044
Their weakness is fire. Fire is strong against everything.

>>49691160
They are vampires after all. Intense UV light hurts them as well.

Outside of that they can be fought much in the same way the Eldar or Necrons can.

>>49691219
Shooting them works well.

>>49691271
Pretty much. The guard is actually pretty good against them since they can saturate an area with counterfire and they have to go easy on them.

>>49691154
Griffith didn't feel anything for Casca. When he assaulted her during The Eclipse, you'll notice he looks at Guts the entire time. He was doing it to hurt Guts; at that point he didn't think of Casca as anything more than an instrument to hurt Guts. It both shows his alien nature as Femto and his all too human resent towards Guts.

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Alright, bitches.
My cig is lit, my beer is cold, my burrito is hot, and my cider is mulling. Just let me get caught up.

So in the absence of guidance I'll just lay out the character and gear of Caligor

>Caligor is nothing short of bold, a character filled with an abundance of bravado. Caligor is quick to make a crude joke and a light-hearted jest at the expense of another, all in fun rarely in insult. Fond of fighting, drinking, and women the Primarch comes of as more of a crude soldier than a lofty Primarch. In fact Caligor much prefers the company of his officers and soldiers, even those within thr Imperial army than that of his "Father" or many of his "brothers". That is not to say he is completely asocial with other legions, in fact he can be quite jovial and relaxed, especially when working with Primarchs from whom he can believe he can learn something from. In his private times the idealistic farmer of his youth emerges, Caligor becoming a student of history and rhetoric, especially in matters warfare and the mind and spirit of a warrior. Despite his laid back gung ho and cocksure nature, in these quiet hours Caligor feels most at peace. The only other time he truly feels at home is upon the battle field.

>In the battle field he is a silent tempest, patrolling the battlefield like a shark, until the shooting begins and he transforms into a laughing, grinning maniac, laying down fire like a tempest. Where one warrior would find a desperate, losing battle Kincaid finds a grand joke and riddle that can only be solved with ultraviolence. Beyond the joy he finds in battle he is exceedingly fatalistic, preferring to risk his own life as opposed to that of his men, a tactic that even he can admit is fool hardy but it is better than feeding his men to a meat grinder battle.

>>49691157
I really think that the Sisters of Battle are Kryptonite for the Vetrovnak. Proper, not to be casually killed, humans protected by their faith and keen fashion sense.

>>49691518
I had some thoughts for you up at >>49690000. Hopefully if my notes aren't sufficient they can at least help you to ask more questions.

>>49691524
I actually formulated a bit of an idea that I will share in a bit.

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>>49691524
>SOB vampire hunters

>>49691311
>>49691271
>>49691219
>>49691160
My problem is that aren't these failed astartes?

Shouldn't the majority of them be hideous mutants or unable to propagate. Like by the dawn of the 40th Millennium they should all be wiped the fuck out.

That or give them equivalent equipment to other Imperials with Archeotech, while rare, is fielded more often.

>>49691567
Uh what?

>Unrelated, but oh fuck: Gen. Milley just threatened WW3.

On to idea for SoB. We've got ideas for inspiration floating around, but not much about where they came from. I'm going to humbly suggest something here:

Let's say there's a planet out there that, due to some serious warp shenanigans, had an extremely lopsided birth order. For every 10 women born, one child would be male. As such you have a society where the vast majority of the ruling elite are women, and women serve on frontline combat because their men are too rare of a resource.

So Big E comes along, and promises to fix their shit. And he does, because he's Big E. Overnight, the birth rates balance themselves. So this whole planet pledges their unswerving loyalty. Maybe they start to worship him as a god and he tells them to cut that shit out, so the ideas go underground. Maybe he's just an almost savior figure to them. But they send him a shit ton of IA regiments entirely made up of women.

One or more of these regiments finds their way into Golgothos' service, where they overhear this religion he believes. They start talking, and it spreads like wildfire. They write people back home and THEY start believing The Emperor is a god. It spreads to other Regiments in much the same manner. But these are smart women, who know to keep that shit on the dl.

Fast forward, they manage to defeat the Vetro at some point during the GC with balls-out faith and determination. Years later, they have been adopted by the Ecclesiarchy, and are inducted across the board as the Sisters of Battle. Somewhere along the lines, they stop recruiting purely from their homeworld, and start getting people from across the galaxies. Orphans with nothing left to lose, women looking to escape/adventure, etc. Point is they become an Imperium-wide known force.

Thoughts?

>>49691629
This seems like a version of the basic plot that Zorg was deeply against last time - the idea that the Emperor would knowingly intervene in the development of a people liable to start worshiping him as a god.

>>49691629
I honestly really like how the SoB where created via semantic shenanigans. Besides the Emperor only got directly involved when shit was hitting the fan so hard that the shit got atomized.

Also when did Miley pull that? Also, you in the service?

>>49691647
What I'm saying is that either they do it and he intervenes early on, so the faith goes underground, or they don't do it, but still view him with higher-than-the-norm amount of awe and such. You can believe someone is a savior without venerating them as a god.

As for the shit I mentioned during the Great Crusade, perhaps they could have served alongside someone who was more...accommodating to their glory? Or perhaps they do get a rebuke. But as much as Big E hated to be worshiped, if it caused a major victory for his Empire, I think he would be a little bit more lax about things. They'd still get a rebuke. But it would probably be something less severe than burning their entire shit to the ground.

Point is, it gives them some background and allows some elbow room for multiple viewpoints. A few explanations or more careful wordings than the guy who almost thought he was in a Cyberpunk movie 2 hours ago because he was overexausted and driving through a depressed, former industrial neighborhood while blasting Retrowave.

>>49691654
>Milley
Earlier tonight

>In the service.
Former. I'm a part timer these days.

>>49691532
Cool cool cool, thanks

>>49690000
Nice Quads btw. So I really want to nail down who they would be allied with before and after the heresy. The Black Augurs are of the menu and I want to steer away from the Men of Stone since if seen a lot of talk of rewriting or scrapping them.

As for coming late to the heresy I LOVE it for two reasons

>I was told that the VII legion was the last to find their primarch

>When the heresy jumps off the legion erupts in civil war

The Crimson Eagles being the deciding factor in the Heresy is really cool to me

>>49691700
MOS, if you dont mind me asking?

Also I think we should keep the SoB as a result of the Age of Apostasy.

>>49691717
11B

And the problem with that is we don't really have an Age of Apostasy. Nor do we have a what's-his-face who tried to take control of the Imperium and failed horribly.

Also, as much as the semantic shenanigans are fun, and this has been discussed, it's not that popular within the group.

>>49691700
>They'd still get a rebuke. But it would probably be something less severe than burning their entire shit to the ground.
The Word Bearers got very harshly treated and they were favourites of the Emperor. I'm not sure that mortal apostates could expect as much.

I sketched out my alternate plan on IRC and you are logged in there, but I could lay out my current thoughts here if you can't find it for whatever reason. It's an expansion on >>49689860.

>>49691702
I'm sorry to say that you're the one best able to decide who would make for good friends to the Crimson Eagles, because you know what they are better than anyone else and can read the other Legion profiles at your leisure. Regarding the Stone Men, it's really just one angry anon who has been harping on about changing the Legion for months without proposing anything concrete. I get the feeling that the only thing that satisfies this person is complaining, so why make their life worse?

>>49691717
Clearly we'll need some sort of Age of Apostasy or at least an age of big religious upheaval where the SoB should play a crucial role.

>>49691730
Cool, 35m myself.

So, why no Age of Apostasy? Why WOULDN'T that happen? I'm genuinely curious.

>>49691763
The only thing I protest is the warp resistant stone molding

>>49691800
I've already explained how that could be in a past thread. It's not like it's 100% warp resistant, it just gives them a bit an edge in that regard.

>>49691794
My question is why are yall hot to get SoB in the heresy?

They didn't even exist before the AoA

>>49691794
I'm sure it would play out differently for sure, but I could see there being quite a few such events.

>>49691810
I would drop the warp resistance entirely, but if the majority wants it, its whatever

>>49691800
Sneaky might have meant that we won't have the Age of Apostasy in time for the Vetrovnak incursions. The Ministorum needs to become popular and influential before its decline can be a big deal. Now, we could just put things off and do other things while the Vetrovnak mark time and the religious situation matures, but that doesn't strike me as all that fun for people who like the Sisters of Battle - or the Vetrovnak.

>>49691810
I think that explanation was here: http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/35490457/#35511361

But I could be getting confused.

>>49691763
I did read that, and it's a start of a single woman and a cult following, but not necessarily connecting that to SoB. By all means, I'm saying we can still have that, but I'm also suggesting she comes from a society or planet that would feel at least completely indebted to Big E.

As for what happened to the Word Bearers, IIRC they got to wach as the Ultras burned all their gorgeous shit to the ground. But you could also turn that around with the fact that Empy was pissed they were not out conquering shit and winning the galaxy because they were too busy doing what he explicitly ordered them not to do. You could also add the "They should have known better" line to that reasoning, as it is fair to punish a person who knows more about the reasoning behind your orders greater than some random chicks.

Also, screw what I said about the Great Crusade. I'm tired, buzzed, and my wires were crossed. I thought you wanted the living saint to drop in to fuck shit up at Ullanor. So disregard that.

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On that note, I'm out for the night. Won't be around much tomorrow. So y'all have a good one.

>re-read what you just posted and realize your intro paragraph reads nothing like what it sounded like in your head
>fuck
>fuck it, whatever.

WILD CARD, BITCHES!

seriously, though. I'll see about popping in when I can tomorrow, but it won't be much.

>>49691861
>My question is why are yall hot to get SoB in the heresy?
Sort of repeating myself, but I would like to get the Sisters of Battle into the Reformed Imperium in time for its early wars with the Vetrovnak, a couple of centuries after the Heresy.

>>49691869
>I did read that, and it's a start of a single woman and a cult following, but not necessarily connecting that to SoB
Yeah, so the idea is to create the preconditions for the Sisters of Battle by giving them their iconic figure. Having Maria Vespa run around being heroic, performing miracles and being martyred just after the Heresy (the Space Marines cannot be cheated of their victory over Chaos, but I think it's OK to have Maria pitch in with the Scouring) gives the Sisters someone to emulate.

(It also lets us add Marianism into the Ministorum, which allows for more controversies and non-chaosy heresies.)

>>49691866
Yeah that was one of them. I know I also speculated as to where it came from (that being remnants of exotic stars).

OK, we had a bit of a chat in IRC and nothing was decided as such but it occurred to me that the Loyalist situation is fairly settled. There's some polish needed on a couple of Legions, but we actually have a very good idea of who is left standing at the end of the Scouring, how much power they hold and what sort of Imperium they're trying to set up. The Traitor Legions aren't in such good shape but there's not much that can be done by bemoaning that fact. So I think the time has come to start writing about the Reformation.

My feeling (and it's just that, a feeling) is that Gaspard Lumey leads for the first decade after the Scouring. He is still the sire and commander of the largest Legion, and although only Arelex Orannis particularly likes Gaspard, the Void Angels were notable for not going Traitor in any significant numbers.

Lumey never sets foot on Terra during his reign and is mostly found aboard the Redoubtable, moving from crisis zone to crisis zone as the Imperium's greatly reduced forces struggle to contain their enemies. The other four Primarchs standing (Arelex, Brennus, Onyx, Shakya) are given command over one of the exterior Segmentums each and also spend a lot of this time fighting. Gaspard presides over the abandonment of a great many sectors, but by the time his decade is out the Imperium looks like it will survive.

Rebuilding is left to Arelex, who reigns next. He re-establishes the government at Terra and sets up great hives devoted to the administration. He also gets the Mechanicum to co-operate on the rebuilding of Mars. And he would have handed the rule of the Imperium over to another of the brothers, if it wasn't for the fact that one of them gets killed off. Or maybe Shakya simply disappears, if it's not time to pull the trigger on anyone else just yet. The four remaining Primarchs meet and agree that the Imperial Government should be handed over to mortal men.

>>49692543
Now, as far as I know, we have exactly one human High Lord of Terra with anything written about them. Jeanne d'Orléans, the first Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard. By 041.M31, she would be 93 years old - approximately the prime of life for a high-ranking Imperial citizen with access to advanced medical treatments. However, she's a provincial so I would be a bit surprised to see her appointed as the ruler of the realm, even if the High Lords decided to follow the precedent of the Primarchs and put a ten year limit on terms as First Lord.

So, I guess it's an open question as to who might rule after Arelex. We could also do with some more characters getting pushed forward into the roles of High Lords - in particular, we could do with a first commander for the forces of the Segmentum Solar and the Imperial Navy, as such characters would certainly have fought in the last years of the Great Crusade, then in the Heresy and the Scouring.

>>49692543

I thought Arelex was on very bad terms with the Lords of Mars due to his distrust of the Martian Cult, and they essentially got rid of him when he tried to break the power of the Mechanicum completely in the reformation that turned them into the Adeptus Mechanicus.

>>49692653
Considering they had a large degree of traitors in their ranks as well I don't think they'd be in position to protest enough enough to stop it.

>>49692671

They accept many cuts to their power, but they point-blank refuse to give up everything, and it ends up nearly breaking out in a war, just like how there was nearly a war over the breaking of the Legions.

>>49692681
Well I don't think anyone would expect them to give up everything and I don't think Arelex would antagonize them. He has more important things to worry about like rebuilding things.

>>49692653
As I understand it, that plot point was axed last year - mainly because we learned more about the situation in the Mechanicum pre-Heresy. The current state of the art is that the Tech Priests have substantial internal differences even on the eve of the revolt, and not all of them are resolved just by calling some guys "TRAITOR!" and killing them. It might be that Arelex is assassinated by disaffected tech priests later in the day, but as things stand his demise/disappearance hasn't been settled.

>>49688798
As it stands, Voidwatcher is likely to be an old man compared to the other Primarchs. So probably not.

At least not as beautiful.

bump

>>49692780
Yeah, I haven't been here a while, but how exactly does the assassination of a Primarch not immediately cause another war?

>>49694629
>how exactly does the assassination of a Primarch not immediately cause another war?
Under the old reckoning? It wasn't something that made much sense to me, so I'm not going to try to explain it. I was happy when it was changed.

In the scenario I was spitballing? It probably does, or at least leads to the side found responsible making humiliating concessions. And by "side found responsible", I mean whatever fraction of the Mechanicum was deemed to have bumped him off. They're not a monolith until they become the Adeptus Mechanicus.

>>49691730
>>49691800
94A

bump

As things are a bit quiet here... there was a thought on IRC about the Xenos Trade Federation, an idea that is reasonably neat but sort of sits inert in the setting not doing anything or interacting. So even if this just gets a nod and whatever, at least it's adding to something that might be useful down the road. Anyway:

Under the current plan, Aubrey the Grey manages to get a temporary Edict of Tolerance issued on behalf on intelligent aliens that aren't particularly hostile to mankind - what one might call "Xenos Amicus" (as opposed to the Xenos Horrificus that we usually talk about). However, I can't see everything just magically getting smoothed over. Representatives of the XA species would need to meet regularly with Imperial officials to coordinate matters of trade, handle conflicts over colonisation rights, that sort of thing. Fine, no big deal. But, when Aubrey screws up and Lazarus burns, the members of this coordinating group - well, they probably die, but there's a legacy. Some of the staff survive, there are people who used to do the job, that sort of thing. The species formerly known as Xenos Amicus have ties to one another - and, suddenly, a burning common interest in not being Xenocided. I think that's a great way to create the Federation. They know one another, they need one another, they have experience working together.

>>49691730
>>49691800
>>49694792
My battleship!

>>49695982
>Big E trusting any xenos, ever
Could Aubrey be more of a snowflake?
Youre going to undermine the foundation of 40k to appease one anon?

>>49696423
I mean, people *have* been asking to make a more radically different 40k in these threads.

Modifying the treatment of Xenos is pretty radical.

>>49695982
Like a Tau Empire whose existence actually makes sense and has precedence, essentially. I can dig it.

>>49696460
I'm not the anon who has been trolling your project threads. You can lose the snippy attitude.
Do you not think that the Emperor allowing xenos to coexist with humans fundamentally undermines the point of writing *40k* fan fiction?
Why not go further and have the Imperium be a multiculti utopia, even post-heresy?
Why have a heresy at all?
An Emperor even?
Why not have just written a completely new setting without boring mary sue space marines?

You have to draw a line somewhere, but I understand you also want to differentiate yourself. As someone who was reading your work as much as I could before burning out or being confused by inconsistencies, hearing that you're changing one of the fundamental building blocks of the setting is rather disappointing to be honest.

>>49696999
that would make too much sense though, anon. And Lumey-sama has decided on this already, so its futile raising concerns.
He's even got his stooges to make it look like people share his views while pulling strings from behind the curtain!

>>49696999
Nice trips, btw.

Unfortunately we can't satisfy everyone. We're either not going far enough, going too far, or something completely different.

Like you say, someone has to draw a line, but everyone draws that line in a different spot. So I'm sorry if you think I came across as snippy, but you're making this slippery slope argument that's not really relevant.

Maybe Aubrey's a snowflake, maybe he's just one snowflake in a blizzard of them. You and I and everyone else in the whole world will define it differently.
And as far as xenos coexistence "undermines 40k", the only thing I could say to that is that Sanctioned Xenos do exist, for what that's worth.

>>49697037
Don't reply to me like you and I have equal concerns. You're trolling a homebrew 40k fanfiction on 4chan. There's few things in life more pathetic than that.
Go create something.
Might I suggest a suicide note?

>>49697084
And the funniest thing is, we've had much more interesting trolls in the past.

>>49697084
>>49697037
#rekt

>>49697084
Clearly you're Lumey's stooge too. Fuck off.

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Still writefagging.

If an expeditionary fleet isn't run by a primarch, who is it run by? I'm writing that before Golgothos the 666th expedition was commanded by a triune council of the Entombed's Master of the Legion, Magos-Explorator Xenoch, and a Lord Admiral with some cool death-pun name. Is that plausible? If it's not, I assume the MOTL of the three would be in command?

>>49692543
>The four remaining Primarchs meet and agree that the Imperial Government should be handed over to mortal men.
>four remaining primarchs
Gaspard Lumey
Aralex Orannis
?????
?????

>>49692614
>So, I guess it's an open question as to who might rule after Arelex.
I'm a little fuzzy on the OU timeline but it seems plausible the next follow-up would be the real establishment as the HLOT as the chief power in the imperium, right?

Also I know the Entombed are trivial and small in numbers post-heresy but they still exist and could have a role to play. Fleshing out some Entombed characters is a big part of the writefaggotry I'm doing, but most relevant to this topic would be Tombwarden Merikh, master of the forge of the Entombed and possibly one of the closest Astartes allies the Mechanicum has. Maybe he could be relevant in the reconstruction of Mars?

>>49696999
The Jokaero are an alien species that the Post-Heresy coexists with in a mutually beneficial capacity, so there is some precedent. However, the Federation of Aliens in our AU should get significant backlash from multiple Imperial institutions, and most of the Primarchs.

Who knows, maybe it's one of the reasons Hektor cites to his brothers as to the validity of his campaign to overthrow the Emperor.

>>49696423
>>49696999
I think you're over-reacting. The Imperium is mistrustful and generally hostile to sapient aliens because the great majority of sapient aliens they encounter range from homicidal to genocidal. Despite that, the OU has sanction Xenos, the hire of alien mercenaries, and so forth.

In the AU, Aubrey claims that there are Aliens who can be trusted. He lobbies, successfully, for recognition of this and gets an edict of tolerance passed. This lasts for a few decades before the narrative proves him wrong when the Aliens he has embraced turn on him.

In short: Aubrey is naive and causes his own ruin. Is that such an extraordinary story?

>>49697376
>the Federation of Aliens in our AU should get significant backlash from multiple Imperial institutions, and most of the Primarchs.
I'm proposing that they federate due to the very real prospect of the Imperium wiping them out. How much more backlash do you want? An Imperial plot to destroy the galaxy so that no alien can live there? ("I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed...")

>>49696999
>>49697376
Yeah, there are canonical alien protectorates in the OU canon.

The Master of Mankind is not above compromise when it comes to ideals. His primary goal is the strength and stability of the Imperium of Man. When he meets the adepts of Mars and finds out the only way he can get them to join them is by compromising his ideals on the Imperial Truth and letting them stay religious, he does it because the benefits outweigh the cost. Aliums are the same way. If they can peacefully join the Imperium and have something worthwhile to offer, the Emperor would grant them special status like the Jokaero. People have this weird notion of the Emperor being this uncompromising force of nature when he's just an Anatolian warlord who gained magic powers in a cave on Molech.

It's a thing.

>>49697080
>Sanctioned Xenos do exist
They do, but they seem to be on an individual basis granted to Inquisitors and Rogue Traders.
This is talking of changing the very character of the Emperor to even allow this to happen.

I'm not arguing for a slippery slope, though I can see how it looks that way Apology, English isn't my native language
I was driving at the point that you are a 40k fanfiction. There need to be some static themes for this to remain so. The fundamental theme of 40k is the notion that war is constant. If you aren't shooting xenos, they are undermining your society. The Emperor championed this belief. So can you see that having a ratified, large scale amnesty for xenos on the proviso that "they behave", while the Emperor is not only alive and leading the Great Crusade against those very xenos threats is an issue?

So I do not appear to be only complaining in your eyes, let me suggest my own idea.
It is the primary reason Lazarus burns. Aubrey is unaware of the Xenos Trade Federation when they try to manipulate him into negotiating with them. They have seen the power of the Imperium for themselves and wish to avoid this fate.
They infiltrate his homeworld to demonstrate their own reach and to talk with one who may listen.
This is discovered by the Imperium, but it appears as though Aubrey was guilty of crimes he did not commit; negotiating with Xenos on his homeworld, where his authority is total.
This would also solve the issue of Aubrey being an open xenophilewhich vexes me greatly but being unlost by Big E and the executioner legion, as he would be framed by circumstance instead of his own actions. This would also make Lazarus seem tragic and earn Aubrey sympathy, as the way I made sense of it, it is right now foolishness that causes it.

>>49697193
>If an expeditionary fleet isn't run by a primarch, who is it run by?
The highest-ranking Space Marine around, or late in the Great Crusade the highest-ranking Imperial Army officer. So in the example, the commander would be the Master of the Legion, but he might have a consultative command style.

>>49697293
Remaining four are those two, plus two of Brennus, Onyx, and Shakya. (For some time I've had it in mind that Golgothos's best place to die is Terra, because you wanted him to have a Meaningful End.)

>the next follow-up would be the real establishment as the HLOT as the chief power in the imperium, right?
That's right. I'm just wondering who exactly leads them. Opening up the Reformation era gives openings for people who felt that writing a whole freaking Legion was too daunting.

>Entombed
They should definitely be doing things and it doesn't need to be that minor. I remember you suggesting that they would array their Successors around the Eye of Terror, perhaps with the mother Chapter near the Cadian Gate? The image of the Entombed standing in deathless vigilance against the Traitors struck a chord with me, but I don't know if you still want them to do that.

>>49697445
>>49697476
Whose side are the ayyyliums on during the Heresy? Do they help out Hektor because Aubrey is on his side?

I'll concede the Black Augurs' names and help come up with new ones if the guy who's complaining about them goes through the wiki and helps update alll the instances of the old ones.

Is that fair?

>>49697581
>it is right now foolishness that causes it.
As I understand it, that is the author's intent.

>large scale amnesty for xenos
We haven't nailed down what the Edict entails. I would expect it to empower Imperial Commanders to designate a species as Xenos Amicus. Most Legions would not use this power because "they're coming right for us!"

>Xenos Trade Federation
The idea is that they don't form until after Lazarus. Before that, they're just some funny-looking guys who get talked down to by a bored Imperial representative.

>>49697593
I can just imagine Aubrey going to the Xenos and saying, "No, really, THIS TIME it's going to work out!"

>>49697445
>Is that such an extraordinary story?
Yes, as the Emperor is the epitome of xenophobia and paranoia. Aubrey may believe this, but by writing it so, the Emperor is now a man who bends and appeases the very threat his entire crusade is built to destroy.

>I'm proposing that they federate due to the very real prospect of the Imperium wiping them out.
This makes a great deal of sense. It would motivate them to seek out Aubrey also, knowing the Emperor will not bend. They misunderstand the Imperial culture, acting instead through their own understandings of it, and set off a chain of events that help cause the Heresy. They could even be spared by the heresy drawing the Imperium away from their doorstep.
Which would allow a leader or oligarchy to rise, claiming responsibility for the *intentional* move that saved the Federation.

>>49697476
>Jokaero
These are not sentient. The Emperor sees sentience as the threat in xenos.

I'm just going to drop my two cents.

As for the Sisters if Battle I don't think we should have them be a thing until our equivalent Age of Apostasy. But a female figure, be she a Sister of Silence or Soldier in the IA, that was martyred and acts as inspiration for the SoB works just fine and is a great idea for an Ollanius Pious character.

As for the Xenos confederacy idea, I think it's gay as fuck and this Aubrey cat sounds like a ponce. However it could work as just another factor that ignites the Heresy, and for that, it could work

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I hate the Xeno confederacy idea.

>>49697593
I'm guessing that they would, although I don't think aubrey's writer got that far in his story yet.

So that would be one of the big things that bites the Imperium in the ass.

After all, it's a little like quantum particle-antiparticle pairs. You can have divergences from canon as long as the grimdark slaps their shit in that much harder.

An imperium that tolerates Aubrey's xeno love for a while is an imperium that is that much more beat to shit when all is said and done.

And probably comes out the other side even MORE intolerant of xenos than canon.

>>49697581
So perhaps Aubrey has his fun, but there's 0 Sanctioned Xenos, 0 xenos mercenaries, nothing. Absolutely all friendly or tolerant interaction with xenos is as bad as throwing in with the Chaos Legions.

Higher highs and lower lows, basically.

>>49697676
>the Emperor is the epitome of xenophobia and paranoia.
I don't really think this is right. When the Great Crusade begins, there are Xenos colonies in the Solar System itself, using humans as slave labour. The Emperor's hostility towards Xenos was a response to the situation on the ground, not an article of faith.

>>49697592
>(For some time I've had it in mind that Golgothos's best place to die is Terra, because you wanted him to have a Meaningful End.)
mite b cool

>They should definitely be doing things and it doesn't need to be that minor. I remember you suggesting that they would array their Successors around the Eye of Terror, perhaps with the mother Chapter near the Cadian Gate? The image of the Entombed standing in deathless vigilance against the Traitors struck a chord with me, but I don't know if you still want them to do that.

Yeah, the coalition of Sepulchra is essentially the Imperium's wall against chaos, though it's mostly non-Astartes human garrison worlds administrated by the surviving Entombed.

>>49697746
>coalition of Sepulchra
Would the Entombed be doing administration? I guess they could, but they do come across as quite aloof, the kind of Marines who descend from the heavens to declare that there is an existential threat to the Imperium and every man, woman, and child who can fire a lasgun is required to lay down their lives to buy another hour for reinforcements to arrive.

Y'know, the kind of guys you'd invite to parties.

>>49697677
>>49697704
If you guys want to cut it, I'm not going to stop you. Just give the people who were more invested in the idea an opportunity to speak to its quality.

>>49697664
>As I understand it, that is the author's intent.
But in the same breath we are seemingly asked to feel sympathy for Aubrey as his homeworld is burned?
This makes no sense to me. He isn't a likable character.

>The idea is that they don't form until after Lazarus.
You have the great crusade and the xenos are as pop up targets for the marines to shoot on their vacation of war.
Actions have reactions, no? There is an opportunity to demonstrate this by the Federation forming in response to the Imperial threat arriving. Is there a link to the Federation? I cannot find them on the wiki.

For the record, I have to say that Aubreys page is so far the worst I have read. There are so many mentionings of primarchs and legions that do not seem to exist. And there are many errors and is all in all very hard to follow with many bad sentences as bad as my own!.
He is supposed to be important but its hard to see why as of now.
No offence intended, but I pull no punch either.
He's my least favourite of your collection up to now.

>>49697736
>not an article of faith.
The Emperor isn't a man of faith, but one of conviction. Any who stand in the way of mankind need to be destroyed, and also any who would pose a threat later too. How can a group of xenos empires not pose a threat at any point, or stand in the way of mankinds dominance in the galaxy?

I clearly will not change your mind though, and this is ok. I like some of your primarchs and legions, but there is too much that I am disappointed by to pick through the rest.
Though I say good luck with your project!

>>49697786
By 'administration' i mean

A: Are you fighting off the forces of chaos well enough?
B: Are you sending tithes of recruits and/or resources?

If A and B, then do your own thing, dawg. If neither, expect to get fucking invaded and have a new planetary governor real soon.

>>49697671
>>49697708
If indeed the Sanctioned Xenos do end up on Hektor's side of the Heresy, can we have a Mortarion-like figure among the Traitor Primarchs? Someone who disliked xenos so much that he would side with Hektor if he thought his Imperium was going to end up filled with xenos anyway if the Emperor continued to rule, and then end up on the side with all the xenos anyway.

If the writefag for the new 7th Legion doesn't have a reason why his Primarch goes Heretic, maybe this could be a possible factor?

>>49698376
Hmmm.

That could work. I know Arelex hates xenos as well as psykers, but it's heavily tilted towards psykers and he stays loyal.

I think Lumey hates xenos as well, but he stays loyal also.

But yeah, it's also a very American thing to hate xenos these days, so it could be a way for the revamped 7th Legion to have some of that culture, while not being a blatant cultural reference, perhaps.

I do caution you though, as I think Aubrey's project is a lot more limited in scope than you might think. It's not an Imperium-wide thing, it's more "local", so the justification for outright betraying the Emperor *because* of the xenos might be pretty thin.

>>49698078
>I clearly will not change your mind though
No, but I don't wield absolute power here. If enough people think that a thing is bad, it's bad and gets changed.

Eventually.

>sympathy for Aubrey
I think he's actually meant to be a cautionary tale, given that the author alludes to Dorian Grey quite heavily.

The federation - sorry, the Compact - is covered very thinly at https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Xenos_Compact_of_Free_Galactic_Interchange

>quality of writing on Aubrey's page
You're not offending me, it's not my work. There are a number of pages on the wiki that I think are extremely bad. Some of them, I haven't edited because I think they're low priority. Others, I haven't edited because I suspect that they'll be substantially re-written by the person holding creative control (or their eventual replacement).

People may talk about me running this thing but I'm just a convenient name to hang on decisions that people don't like. Which is fine, this isn't a popularity contest.

>>49698154
Gotcha. We're on the same page, then.

>>49698376
The only things in the Traitor camp that I have any degree of control over are the Heralds and their immediate hangers-on. They don't really need a motive to join Hektor.

>>49697592
>For some time I've had it in mind that Golgothos's best place to die is Terra, because you wanted him to have a Meaningful End.

Recent Material had him dying at the very beginning of the Heresy, which was a good thing as by then he'd gone so completely insane that had he lived into the Heresy, he would have attempted to forcibly convert his entire Legion into Dreadnoughts so they could conquer death.

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>>49698870
>character written almost exclusively to hate the traitors with a fiery passion and be the one thing they're scared of
>take him out of the narrative before there even are any traitors for him to hate

As the man who first proposed the Xenos Confederacy can I speak up?

>>49698989
Absolutely not. Go ahead.

>>49698984

If he lives throughout the Heresy, he's going to do just as much damage to his own legion as to the Traitors. Possibly even effectively destroying his legion in the process. Taking Marines with even the most mild of Battle-Damage and converting them into Dreadnoughts and believing that in fighting Hektor he's fighting the forces of Death itself (which is not actually that far from the truth).

The downside of being a Dreadnought is that the longer it exists out of stasis, the more insane the pilot gets as the combination of constant never-ending pain, the inability to sleep and the constant time for self-reflection takes its toll. So Golgothos, refusing to ever go into stasis, progressively goes more and more insane as the Crusade wears on and finally completely snaps at the time of the Heresy. So in the Heresy is is literally completely insane.

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>>49698989
>>49699036
Right.

The Xenos Compact I laid out as an idea to allow people with various ideas to throw around alien races as detailed or vague as they wanted in an analogue of Carthage. The Compact was designed on profit. More profit you made, you became more politically mobile. The Compact would fight with mercenaries, some not even part of the combat, allowing for a great variety of units. The Compact would war off and on with the Imperium, knowing when to fight, and when to call it quits, and when to even help out the Imperium.

It never had anything to do with Aubrey.

It never had anything to do with the GC, the Heresy, or even the Reformation.

It was designed to grow, and form, as the Imperium slowly recessed, and possibly be a successor to the Imperium if it ever fell as it too opposes all the nasty shit that is trying to tear the galaxy apart like Tyranids and Chaos. It was something designed for being relevant much, much later from the time period we're stuck in.

But my idea was taken from me by an enterprising Anon who wrote a lot for the Compact, but he gradually stopped writing. Then Viktor took over, but Viktor Anon found he couldn't do much with the Compact due to the fact it's in fucking 40k.

>>49699090
Yeah I'm saying he should be insane for a while because that's like the whole point of him.

Also having 2 different trips is annoying.

>>49699111

The idea is not mine, it's from the guy who took over them briefly. I'm just running with it.

Given Golgothos actually comes to believe that the entire Human Race should become Dreadnoughts, I had an idea that during the Heresy if he's involved he takes a number of worlds he liberates and effectively converts the entire human population into what are a hybrid of servitor, dreadnought and those Human Cybermen from the early Dr Who reboot. And when the loyalists come across those worlds they realize just how completely insane Golgothos has become and know they can't let him continue.

Just something that I thought of.

>Klaus Detrik was being dragged by his face, powerful hands digging into the radiation burns on his head. He screamed, he kicked, and gnawed at ceramite plated fingers, his teeth cracked and bloody. He knew what awaited him once the marine pulled him out into the open air. He saw through the cage of fingers the debris of the bunker door, their last line of defense against the Astartes. Shortly after he was greated by the warm, acrid air of a burning Bravig. He stopped kicking and wailing and resorted to a resigned whimper. The marine holding him spoke to another who stood over a crowd of prisoners. His comrades, brothers and sisters to the cause. They had already earned their vengeance, Taletar had burned, they were victorious. This was only a prelude to the after life. He was tossed into a pit with the others, the fetid water turning the muddy snow into slush reeking of gasoline and promethium, the chemicals already starting to form rashes and burns. Klaus knew what was going to happen next, they all did. Many of the more faithful members of his coalition formed a protective ring around the young and elderly, to Shield them from what would happen next. It was a show of solidarity if nothing else.

>Klaus got to his feet, peering at the edge of the pit. An Imperial Soldier and a marine laughed together, their weapons at a low ready. They probably wanted a fight, an excuse for them to kill them all where they stood. Klaus knew that would be a mercy, should their master emerge from the depths of bunker. As if he were a demon to be summoned through thought alone, Klaus heard the heavy foot falls of the enemy. He could only see the top of the bunker entrance but even then that was enough to see the face od his most dreaded nightmare.

>>49698078
>>49698540
Would yiu guys mind if I cleaned up his page a bit?

>>49699654
*you

>>49699654
Hopefully the Anon in charge of it will come on and offer it over.

>>49699654

There's a WIP on Aubrey's talk page.

>>49699803
>>49699950
Oh, I don't want to take over the page, I just wanted to clean it up of references to non-existent Primarchs, Legions, and events; and also run a spell and grammar check on it, maybe reformat the page to be more "storylistically" pleasant.

That sort of stuff.

>>49700011
Oh feel free.

>>49700011

The whole page is in the midst of a major overhaul. Anything you do will be covered over eventually anyway.

>>49700011
>>49700031
Since wiki changes can always be reverted can it just be a general policy that these kinds of edits are a good thing for people to do self-directed?

>>49699459

>Caligor Kincaid, War given flesh. Had he been Bravigian he would have been worshiped as one of their gods. He stepped from the bunker, his ornate armour slick with blood, his face a death mask of gore and gristle. In his gauntlets he held to men, dead. He tossed them into the pit and Klaus saw, as offal and shredded intestine rained upon them, that it was infact a single man, simply torn in two. Caligore paced the pit, whether the expression he bore was that of a grimace of fury or a grin of jubilation Klaus could not have neen sure, but the hunger in his eyes was unmistakable.

>The Primarch rounded the pit and spoke with the marine that had seized him and tossed him into the pit. The marine nodded, pointed at Klaus, then saluted, before jogging back into the bunker.

>Caligor stalked up to the pit, sliding down the slope and grabbed Klaus by his worn uniform coat. The demigod warrior held him up, inspecting him like a stray cat or a broken piece of equipment, his ice blue eyes burrowing into his, a stoic scowl shifting into a wild grin. "Hot damn son, you look like Grox shit!" The Primarch boomed. Klaus simply flinched, his face flushing at his own cowardice. Caligor set him down and put a heavy hand on his shoulder helping him up out.

>The primarch brought him stumbling out of the pit, then set him sprawling to the ground, his bloody spit coloring the ashy snow. "Get the fuck up, soldier," The primarch yanked him up to his feet "You wanna wage war like a man, you'll damn well stand your ground like one." Klaus straightened his jacket and looked his reaper in the eye, in a flimsy facade of bravery. Caligor sat upon a pile of rubble and charred corpses, his seat crunching disgustingly under his weight.

>>49700048
Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Alright then, as you were.

>>49700349
>"So," Caligor purred, "This how you think this would play out?" Klaus stood there, shaking, perhaps from blood loss, the wound on his head weeping blood, perhaps from fear. "YOU GOTTA TONGUE, BOY? YOU GONNA ANSWER ME?" Klaus flinched, "N-no." He stammered. "Shit, I can't blame you. Not every day a Primarch comes to fuck up your day personally, huh?" Caligor reached into a pouch in his armour and produced a lo stick, lighting it on an ember. He took a drag, leaving it in his mouth, "So what did you think would after this, eh? You'd just burn my house down and rule this little irradiated shit hole? Walk away without a scratch?" Klaus made a brave face and spoke, "I accept my fate. My death means nothing." Kincaid laughed, "Alright, alright. Fair enough. But what about theirs?" Kincaid took a long drag from his lo stick and flicked it into the pit. A second later the fuel ignited, and the screams began. Klaus cried out in horror and rushed to the pit before being tackled by soldiers. But he still had a very clear view into the pit. It was...horrific. Marines and soldiers kicking back and butt stroking those who tried to escape. "YOU MADMAN! WHAT ARE YOU DOING! THERE ARE WOMEN. CHILDREN, INNOCENT PEOPLE IN THERE! PEOPLE OF PEACE!"

>>49701321
Caligor snatched him like an eagle plucking fish from a pond, whirling around and holding him by his face. Klaus now had a very clear view of the Primarch's gore encrusted visage. His skin was ripped about his mouth and cheeks, his nose broken, lacerations and deep cuts marking his face like a map. "Innocence? Peace? You'd speak to me about Innocence after you sent my country men screaming to hell because we dared battle your tyranny? PEACE?! Look around you "Exalted Lord", IS THIS THE PEACE YOU WERE LOOKING FOR?" He tossed him to the earth and set his boot on his groin. "There is no peace. Not for you. Not for me. Not for anyone. I've been shown the truth that I so desperately wanted to ignore. But god damn, will it always rear its ugly head..." Caligor drew his knife, a mighty cleaver in the hands of a lesser man, and placed in against his thigh, kneeling down and picking him back up like a toy. "No. I know the truth of the universe, the one you've helped me reckon." He drew the knife up, cutting into his loin, and soon the Screams of Bravigian Exalted Lord Klaus Detrik joined those of the last Bravigians of Haravi, "You wished for peace and understanding? Forget those hopes and pray they never resurface, lest those after us forget our calling. Forget the power of your ancient technology and science. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in our grim, dark future there is only war." Caligor yelled and brought his blade upward, bisecting the man that had killed his home, his family, his hopes.

>Dropped the sections of flesh into the charnel pit and with them, a grenade. His final act of mercy on Haravi. His final act of vengeance for himself and his warriors.

>"There will be no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter."

>>49701470
>Before Caligor Kincaid left his world he boarded a lone thunderhawk back to the ashes to Taletar. There he visited the place of his youth, now a smouldering crater. All that was left of his family, his country, was a tattered flag.

>Upon that noble cloth flew a mighty eagle encarmine, blood red for the warriors that shed blood to preserve truth, freedom, and liberty. He spread his wings and cried his defiance in the center of a white sun, the brilliant star a symbol of hope. Hope for a better today, hope for a better tomorrow, a shining beacon in the night that all those who have the strength to seek it can flock to and bath in. The sun shone like white hot flame in a see of deep blue, now faded. The void for those that have been lost, the honoured dead.

>Caligor stood upon the crater with the legacy of Taletar in his hands. Had he betrayed his nation by indulging his own vengeance? He couldn't find the answer...so he wept, for the first time in decades, he silently wept. For his family, and for a dead dream. His dream.

>A marine approached, Gregor Renier, one of his Cataphracts. "Sir, we should get a move on." Kincaid sighed, "You in a hurry, Marine?" "No sir. I just believe that you will...face some retribution, for Bravig. They may come for us, sir." "I reckon they will. I expect them to." Gregor joined his Primarch at the craters edge, "And if they come to fight, sir?" Caligor wrapped the flag about his neck and secured his helm, "Then we'll fight." Gregor followed him back to the carrier, "What then, sir?"

>Caligor took one last look at his home, "Then I'll do what I've always done. Fight tyrants."

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>reading the Battle of Rai
>the part with the hypnoprojectors

It's like watching a boy have to kill his own rabid puppy, and then lose all his friends because he went home crying.

>>49701891
>"Then I'll do what I've always done. Fight tyrants."

So he's going to do the same thing as Angron. Fight the ultimate Tyrant of all.

>Angron had laughed, the sound rich and true. ‘Such pretty lies! We fight for the same reasons men have always fought: for land, for resources, for wealth and for bodies to feed into the grinders of industry. We fight to silence anyone that dares draw breath and whisper a different opinion from ours. We fight because the Emperor wants every world in his hands. All he knows is slavery, painted in the inoffensive cloak of compliance. The very notion of freedom is a horror to him.’

>‘Traitor,’ Russ hissed.

>Angron stood tall, still grinning. ‘Do we give choices to those we slaughter? A true choice? Or do we broadcast that they must throw their weapons into the fires of peace and bow down, faces pushed into the mud like beggars, thanking us for the culture we force upon them? We offer them compliance or we offer them death. How am I a traitor, wolfling? I fight as you fight, as loyal as you are. I do the tyrant’s bidding.’

>‘We offer them freedom.’ Russ spoke through clenched teeth, the moon bright in his eyes. ‘You are mutilating your own sons and stealing their minds – now you preach of the Emperor’s tyranny? Are you lost so far lost in your delusions?’

>‘You are free, Leman Russ of Fenris, because your freedom matches the Emperor’s will. For each time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium’s advance, there comes another time when I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole civilisations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor’s hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery.’

>>49699459
>>49700349
>>49701321
>>49701470
>>49701891
>Theme Song: https://youtu.be/7XmDYJBZZdc

So this is the turning point for Caligor. Kinda edgy I know, but it needs to be that way to illustrate his fall from grace.

What did you think?

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Bumping with armor

>>49702774
What happens to the Auretian Technocracy in this setting? They had a whole new pattern of power armor which has never been drawn or elaborated on. Could be cool if it gets disseminated instead of destroyed.

>>49701470
>Forget the power of your ancient technology and science. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in our grim, dark future there is only war." Caligor yelled and brought his blade upward, bisecting the man that had killed his home, his family, his hopes.
>>Dropped the sections of flesh into the charnel pit and with them, a grenade. His final act of mercy on Haravi. His final act of vengeance for himself and his warriors.
>>"There will be no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter."

Holy shit, is this THE 40k quote?

That's kinda badass. I like the idea that he gets more and more eloquent the angrier he gets

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>>49701470
>>49703034
I suggest dropping "Grim" personally. It just kinda cuts into the flow.

>>49703127
Agreed. I get why you'd add it and all but it just doesn't flow well.

>>49698870
>>49698984
Yeah, I don't see the point in shuffling Golgothos off the scene before he can unleash his rage on the traitors.

>>49699090
>>49699111
It seems fine to have the guy progressively losing his mind as things go on. The requirement to be in stasis to stall that could help explain why the likes of Obitus wield unseemly power in the Legion, so it's actually a virtue.

That said, if it's felt that some kind of Deus Ex is needed to have him sane enough to go to Terra to die a hero, then we could use Maria Vespa.

>>49703211
I think his insanity manifests mostly as volent outbursts. I think He's more likely to just get increasingly violent than anything else. As time goes on, Obitus, Mors, or Merikh more or less point him in the direction of the enemy and he goes "RAAAGH DEATH TO TRAITORS RAAAGH"

On the further subject of Entombed equerries and major characters.
>Master of Sanctity Obitus
High Chaplain, head of the new reclusiam order instituted by Golgothos which exists parallel to the command structure and is charged with rooting out heresy and witches. Turns out to be a heretical witch. Sort of a Luther ripoff except not morally ambiguous.
>Master of the Legion Mors
The guy who commanded the Entombed before Golgothos showed up and still mostly commands them afterward. Down to brass tacks, no nonsense sort of dude.
>Master of the Forge Merikh
A *strong* adherent to the Omnissiah who proseletyzes within the legion itself. Maintains heavy connections with his homies on mars.

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>>49703211
>That said, if it's felt that some kind of Deus Ex is needed to have him sane enough to go to Terra to die a hero, then we could use Maria Vespa.
No! Bad Lumey! Get your magical realm out of here!You already made your waifu!

>mfw I realize Vernier is unintentionally a mockery of Arturia

>>49703326

His Anger is just one symptom of a complete mental deterioration. There's a bit on the page which I think describes him well.

>Naturally, there were also rage and anger - the farther into the Great Crusade, the worse they got. Despite the devastating power bequeathed to him as a Dreadnought, he missed his mortal state. Initially, he resented his death, regretted the circumstances of it, fixated upon it, hated the cold-shell life he had been given in exchange. He consequently went through all of the stages of grief - denial, anger, bargaining, depression - only he was grieving for himself. Finally, he came to terms with his death and accepted it as a fact that couldn't be changed. Already going insane at this stage, he even started finding positives about it. From seeing himself as a pathetic cybernetic zombie, he came to see himself as a true immortal, and the inconveniences of being in a dreadnought as the price he had to pay for immortality. And this thinking naturally led to his desire to share this gift with the rest of Humanity.

>>49703127
>>49703139
>>49703034
Duly noted. And what of the content?

>>49703511
The contents are all good in my book.

>>49703511
>>49703681
Sometimes it's hard to say anything more substantive than "damn dude that's pretty good" so you just don't end up saying anything at all.

If Golgothos and Caligor's legions fought together they'd probably break the fucking planet out of sheer undirected anger.

>>49703364
>waifuism
That's a bit lazy. You should really be accusing me of shipping.

>>49703715
Shipping? Who are you shipping?

>>49703715

Shipping is a cancer that is mercifully nonexistent in any of the Games Workshop Universes.

Waifus though are real. Read any ADB novel.

>>49703368
Golgy probably has as much right as anyone else to dispute what's on the page and recommend changes to it.

>>49703743

He seemed to sign off on everything the other guy did. If he has objections, he would have voiced them by now.

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>>49703741
>Shipping is a cancer that is mercifully nonexistent in any of the Games Workshop Universes.
I was going to let you keep your illusions, but as you're saying things like >>49703754 - suffer.

>>49703787

It helps that before it was a talking sword, Fulgrim was corrupted by the galaxy's biggest bender.

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>>49703743
>>49703754
I don't think what I said really conflicts the text that strongly. I would really classify this as a very minor tweak, if anything.

Though while rereading it more critically I do think the core HATE ALL WITCHES RAAAAGH concept that Golgothos was built off of didn't really survive the rewrite very strongly.

I don't think Golgothos would externalize to "turn everyone into robots" in that way. More likely, and more in character, would be a growing hatred for the sorts of witchcraft, sorcery, warp shenanigans, etc that infected him in the first place. As the heresy goes on and Golgothos becomes increasingly more unhinged, it gets to the point where the mere mention of psychic activity in a system leads to Golgothos mobilizing his flotilla to crush some heretics.

On Terra, with daemons popping in all around him, he'd basically be pure, concentrated hate.

If he dies on Terra does that make him !Sanguinius?

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>>49703812
I also kinda miss the idea of him and 100 dreadnoughts flying into the Eye of Terra to be boogeymen for the chaos legions.

>>49703812
>spoilers
Yes, but prettier.

>>49703812
He would be robo-zombie super robot Sanguinius.

>>49703860
2silly4me

Although in a post-heresy context where dreadnoughts have long been known as legendary warrior-cyborgs they could be boogeymen.

>>49703812

What if in his insanity he turns on ALL Psykers? So he kills the loyalist Astropaths because they're witches, and any Psyker of any kind he runs across? Because in his insanity he wouldn't be able to tell if a Psyker is good or bad, all Psykers would be evil. He reminds me of Mortarion, he hated the living shit out of Psykers as well.

>>49703860

Those Dreadnoughts would become Helbrutes in very short order. For that matter Golgothos himself would become a Helbrute as the Warp soaks into his metal body and warps it.

>>49703893
>What if in his insanity he turns on ALL Psykers? So he kills the loyalist Astropaths because they're witches, and any Psyker of any kind he runs across? Because in his insanity he wouldn't be able to tell if a Psyker is good or bad, all Psykers would be evil. He reminds me of Mortarion, he hated the living shit out of Psykers as well.
Have you read the fluff about them using mind control leashes on their psykers and turning those who use their powers into servo skulls?

>Those Dreadnoughts would become Helbrutes in very short order. For that matter Golgothos himself would become a Helbrute as the Warp soaks into his metal body and warps it.
It was a long time ago but I think Brennus put warp resistent wards on Golgothos' armor as a handwave, but overall, yeah, they'd be warp-twisted as fuck after a while. Maybe even devotees of malice.

>>49703912

When Golgothois goes insane, he really needs to go INSANE. To the point where privately the surviving loyalists Primarchs are glad he's dead/gone, because if he stuck around he'd only do harm to the Imperium.

Helbrute fluff has it that prolonged exposure to the warp fuses a Dreadnought's body with their armour and turns the metal into a flesh-like structure. Horribly agonizing and brutal.

>>49703812
Maybe Caligore and Golgy could fight on Terra and that's how he meets his end?

>>49703929
>When Golgothois goes insane, he really needs to go INSANE. To the point where privately the surviving loyalists Primarchs are glad he's dead/gone, because if he stuck around he'd only do harm to the Imperium.
100% agree

>>49703933
They'd probably destroy a bunch of entire hives in the process a la Man of Steel.

>>49704031

That's the side-effect of becoming a Dreadnought. Dreadnought Pilots all go insane eventually. The only reason those like Bjorn haven't gone off the deep end is because they're kept in stasis 95% of the time. Golgothos, as master of the Legion can't afford to do that, but that means his mental decline is inevitable. So he is stronger than any of his brothers in his mental body, but his mind is stretched thin and eventually snaps.

Really, Golgothos is one of the most interesting of all the alternate Primarchs because of this. He's flawed, damaged, and eventually goes more crazy than Curze (and that's an achievement).

>>49695982
>>49696423
>>49697080
>>49697445
>>49697581
>>49697593
>>49697671
>>49697676
>>49697708
>>49698078
>>49698438
>>49698540
>>49699106
>>49699950


OK!
First of all!

>>49704031
Fucking awesome.

Well, I'm off for the knight

>>49704101
Yes?

>>49704413
Everything on that page is irrelevant.

Pretty much everything that has been complained about gets addressed. Finishing EZ before Aubrey is being completed.

>>49704449
Furthermore.

The Xenos love is staying, it will always stay.

:^)

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>>49704536
He's disagreeing, Lumey. Spirit him.

>>49704582
You'll have to do more than gas me.

Giving this a night time bump.

>>49704582
I thought I was meant to be the secret master? Shouldn't I be signaling an attack dog to eliminate this unpalatable idea, rather than doing something else's bidding?

>>49706165
>"look how im totally not in control"
>tone and way he carries himself is what gives him away

>>49707036
I'm fine so long as you make the idea of me as master manipulator look like a conspiracy theory.

Good job, sock puppet.


On a more serious note, I couldn't get to sleep because I was thinking about the regime that succeeds rule by the Primarchs. I guess that we get a period of deference through to a little after 200.M31, when the last of the Loyalist Primarchs disappears. The way I see it, in that timeframe the First Lord is the chairman of the High Lords, and in times of war (or other crisis) it's convenient to go running to one of the Emperor's remaining sons and ask for their wisdom. Even after the Primarchs are gone, it takes an exceptional character to break the conservative habits of the time.

As for who that would be, I feel like the most likely coup leader would be the commander of the Segmentum Solar (as this largely solves the questions of means and opportunity). Motive should be a bit more complicated than mere lust for power, otherwise we'd have to explain why the Space Marines, Assassins, Inquisition, and any other safeguards of the Reformed Imperium sit on their hands. My feeling is that someone breaking up the way things were should be rebelling against a conciliatory policy and carry the banner for factions within the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy that feel the time has come to settle affairs with various Xenos squatting on what were once Imperial Worlds, push to the edge of the Astronomican's light and so forth. Think Maximinus Thrax in Space.

>>49707290
So, furthering this thought on MTiS, I think he'd carry out a glorious bloody purge of the Decadent Terran Nobility who had allowed Xenos Marauders to stand unchecked and then set off on what he imagines to be the Great Crusade 2.0. And, for want of a better target, I think he'd direct his attentions at the Harakiens, leading a great host of Guard against the resurgent Eldar.

And getting killed by them.

Which doesn't quite leave the Imperium back where it started, because it's been proven that the High Lords have gone from being a desperate cabal of powerful individuals with their backs to the wall and virtual demigods keeping an eye on them to a conniving cabal of powerful individuals keenly aware of threats to their own interests.

>>49707853
so he carries out a purge of the powerful nobles, seizing power of the entire Imperium. All the while the marines, assassins, inquisition, just sit on their hands and let this happen or back him?
What conciliatory policies does the Reformed Imperium possess that would force a coup, and have people support it unironically?
Do the surviving primarchs strike deals with the xenos, or shy away from fighting them? Because this doesn't seem to make any sort of sense.

>>49707998
>Do the surviving primarchs strike deals with the xenos, or shy away from fighting them?

As noted in >>49707290, this is slated for after the last of the Loyalist Primarchs departs the scene.

>What conciliatory policies does the Reformed Imperium possess that would force a coup, and have people support it unironically?
For the people currently in the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, the scars of the Heresy have healed, the Imperium's armies are replenished, and yet - there are uncounted worlds that were once won by the Emperor's Legions that have never been reclaimed. This doesn't force anything to happen but it's the sort of situation in which someone might get the bright idea to Change Things.

>so he carries out a purge of the powerful nobles, seizing power of the entire Imperium.
Not really. He carries out a purge of the Terran nobility. Mars has to be dealt with politely, the Imperial Guard and Navy increase their power, etc. At most, he's seized the helm of the High Lords of Terra.

>All the while the marines, assassins, inquisition, just sit on their hands and let this happen or back him?
I think the Marines would be relatively OK with someone deciding that perfidious Xenos scum really need to be purged. As for the Assassins and Inquisition, it's an exercise to the reader to decide whether the "killed by Eldar" story is true or simply convenient.

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>>49704449
>>49704536
Great news, if you ever need a hand let us know!

>>49704129
Pretty late, I hope you didn't have a knightmare.

>>49708313
I did! It gave me chivers!

So I'm going to start cannabalizing the Crimson Teeth pages, would anyone mind?

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>>49708776
>So I'm going to start cannabalizing the Crimson Teeth pages

Into the Crimson Eagles? That's alright, but a lot of the Teeth's stuff is pretty edgy so be careful that you don't cut yourself on it.

>>49708776
>>49708917
Jesus, I've just looked over the CT page. What the hell is this? What could you possibly cannibalize from bones?

There're successor Chapters with more content.

>>49709135
Yeah, being chewed over multiple times by multiple authors when many people had many different ideas, and all wanted to implement their own personal spin...

Didn't go so well.

Giving people freedom to work is very important, and we should strive to be open to new ideas whenever possible, but the CT are our own personal object lesson of what happens when it goes too far.

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Armor bump, again.

Alright, I'm back. What did I miss? Did the Knight of the Foil Helmet return?

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>>49710268
Literally nothing of importance occurred while you were away. TKotFH did make same appearances though.

>>49710621
Alright, fair enough.

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>>49704449
>>49704536
Aubrey, I'm just letting you know right now that I will be editing some of the stuff on your Legion's Discussion page.

None of your content will be deleted, nor will I add anything of my own, this will just be a spelling/grammar check with some reformatting.

>>49711282

It's in a horrible mess at the moment (It's just a lot of draft material) so feel free.

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>>49711928
Is this Aubrey-anon? I've just finished a first-pass edit of the Eternal Zealots' Discussion page. I don't think I can do another pass.

Too much pic related for me.

>>49712384
I cant help but love the Mk V Armor.

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>>49713711
Finally another person, we seem to have lost more than half our posters from the last thread. Where is everybody?

>>49713907
It's Canadian Thanksgiving.

>>49713907
My power just came on a little while ago. Hurricanes and all that, you know.

>>49713907
I'm currently dealing with a migraine and doing other work...

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>>49713914
Really? you crazy Canucks. Happy Thanksgiving!

>>49713994
Are you on the East Coast? Or the Islands?

>>49714028
Good reasons...

>>49714248
East Coast.

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>>49713907
I have chronic panic attacks and have been breathing through a paper bag all day

>>49714248
Not sure if >>49714314 is arbites anon, but the videos and pics coming from his location show the base is flooded beyond the ability to function. There's a pic somewhere of some dude kayaking down the road on base.

>>49714361
No, it's Arelex actually. Just wanted to let people know I was still alive, lol.

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>>49714350
>>49714361
Whaaaaaatttttttt!!!??? That's crazy.
Crazier than form-fitting Power Armor, at least.

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>>49714485 It sounds worse than it is.

Also, I like it when artists go for that thinner form fitting aesthetic with power armor.

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>>49714520
Here's the pic.

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>>49714520
That's good. And I'm pretty sure regular power armor is comparatively form-fitting, it's just that Space Marines are just that j00cy.

>>49714563
He's wearing his almighty PT belt to keep himself safe.

>>49714652
Well, of course. How else would he be protected from the hazards of the world?

>>49714713
He wouldnt be, his boat would have tipped already and he'd of drowned if not for the power of the PT Belt

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>>49714652
Hey Bloodseer, which Legion are you writefagging for right now?

Also does anyone know what the markings on this Luna Wolf's right kneepad represent?

>>49714846
Likely also after getting struck by lightning, hit by flying debris, hit again by a drunk driver who hasn't done his risk assessments, and thrown into the air by gale force winds.

>>49714940

That is the battle honour of the First Pacification of Luna. It represents the two faces of the moon and how the moon is personified as female.

>>49714940
I had helped brain storm some of the Crimson Eagles. But mostly I've been helping throw ideas around for the Augurs still. And trying to think of a name other than Bloodseer. I can help with any Legion though.

>>49714968
Oh most certainly.

>>49715104
I could use some help for the Sons of Fire, if you can go by the page. I need help with the Doctrine and other stuff. Just lacking ingenuity.

>>49715423
To me, they seem like a mix of the Heavy Infantry doctrines of the Death Guard and the pyromania of the Salamanders. So maybe they should be more like that. Masses of heavy infantry slowly marching across the field in Mk III Warplate, unrelenting and completely with out remorse.

Obviously they substitute the mass chemical attacks with flame strikes. Phospex is their fragrance of choice and no theater of war feels like home with out it.

Perhaps we can steal a little from the word bearers in the shape of the Ashen Circle. Destroyers with hand flamers, dedicated utterly to the purgation of the Xenos civilizations they find on the frontier.

>>49715504
Forgot the name

>>49715504
>>49715521
That helps, thanks!

Been updating them overtime lately. Did one major update excising one major part of them, and clearing their history to not contain misinformation.

>>49715504

There's an idea I used for the Zealots which could also work for the Sons of Fire. Destroyer Terminators. Give each a Heavy Flamer with Chem Munitions, and instead of fast strikes like the Ashen Circle, they assault like a forest fire, inexorable, a wall of death that is unstoppable and consumes everything before them.

>>49715569
No problem, I'll keep thinking them over to see if there is anything else I can come up with that might help.

>>49715643
Give them the funky Melta/Heavy Flamer thing that they Pyroclasts get, maybe throw in the Grave Wardens' special rule that gives them the over watch Template. Slow methodical terminators burning the shit out of everything says Cataphracti to me.

>>49715722

Given the Zealot Eunectes wear Tartaros, giving these guys Cataphractii would help differentiate them.

>>49715687
>>49715722
By the way Bloodseer, read the latest Silver Cataphracts?

They're one of my proudest contributions to the project in terms of completion, though secondary characters and military campaigns need to be fleshed out.

>>49715423
>>49715504
Here's a thought:

Because they're Khornate, just straight DG might not quite work. Khorne prefers the berzerker style of just administering violence for the sake of violence, charging headlong etc, etc.

So, perhaps add something in there that they amass slowly across the battlefield because they're actively extending the battle. They're prolonging the bloodshed so they and Khorne can appreciate every drop of blood spilled in his name, every soul sacrificed, and every skull to be added to the throne.

>>49715779
I have not yet, but I will. Perhaps it will inspire me to create another character

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>>49715504
Aren't heavy infantry doctrines already the realm of the Silver Cataphracts, and to a lesser extent, the Steel Marshalls, the Entombed, and the Stone Men?

>>49715821
Silver Cataphracts are mobile warfare supported by overwhelming firepower in the form of active artillery support.

Steel Marshals are up in the air.

You've got me on the other two.

But for real
>Silver cataphracts ranking above the ENTOMBED in heavy infantry doctrine

Go read the page, they're far more mechanized than heavy infantry.

>>49715821

Most of the Legions are Heavy Infantry. That's pretty much what the Legions were designed to do. Sadly it is overused here.

Though the Entombed are all about small unit actions in the crowded guts of hives, the Marshals are about storming fortified citadels and the Stone Men I have no idea.

>>49715821
How they read seems more fitting of Heavy Infantry. So maybe that is what needs changing? But infantry specialization is something everyone seems to have.

>>49715832
>To them war is a revolting practice

Just started the page and remembered I have read some of this and that line I detest because it doesnt scream Astartes to me.

On the other hand I like that they dont have weapons named after heroes. I like that they are just there to do the job what ever it takes. Again reminding me somewhat of the Death Guard in the regard,though mostly of the pre-Perturabo Iron Warriors.

>>49715861

The Old Cataphracts were very similar to the Iron Warriors, sans the Siege Aspect. A combination of overwhelming firepower and liberal use of bodies that like a sledgehammer would crush enemies completely. To quote Stalin, 'Quantity has a quality all its own.'

>>49715888
>Again reminding me somewhat of the Death Guard in the regard,though mostly of the pre-Perturabo Iron Warriors

That's always what I've thought. They are the Iron Warriors stripped of the Siege aspect and with pulverizing warfare taking its place.

>>49688522
Hey fuccbois, I'm still fiddling with ideas for the Scribes, but I'll reiterate my offer from a previous thread.

If you make a page/subheading/whatever for me somewhere in your Legion area, I'll write a few planets for you, Atalantos-style while I'm bored at work this week.

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>>49715920
Could you write some planets for the Kuzgeta sector?

My only rules are they have to be influenced by Rosskan culture(Industrialist, grim, and creative are the adjectives best to describe them). And that they were once great but become lesser by the end of the Heresy/Scouring.

For example, Kyuw was an amazing Forgeworld full of equality for all with political fairness. And in the Heresy it disappeared without a trace.

Rosskar gets fucked into a hellscape with 2/3rds of the planet being unliveable and the population reduced to 0.01th of its former self.

There has been a world that needs writing, Nova Rosskiya, which got out of the Heresy and Scouring unscathed but launches a splinter rebellion just after the First Black Crusade with the rest of Kuzgeta - to horrible results.

So there, some rules, an idea to start with, write what you want or write Nova Rosskiya - your pick. Either way I look forward to what you'll make!

>>49715888
Cataphracts are the least Astartes of all the Astartes.

That's partially the point.

They have multiple failed organs, they hate their Primarch, and have no sense of Chapter unity - Silver Cataphracts have no love for other Silver Cataphract successors. The Legion was bound together through fear and intimidation by Alexandri.

>>49715962

Don't forget to give them all a vaguely Eastern European influence to them.

Kyuw, the Hollow Forge is vaguely Polish, for example and has almost no ground military because it is a massive Shipyard Forge that produces warfare for the Kuzgeta Sector.

>>49715962
Give me a link, and a wiki-space to write in. As always, wiki formatting isn't my strong point.

>>49715977

I hate that idea. Least Astartes of all the Astartes. It's like having the least Guard of the Imperial Guard, or the Least Eldar of the Eldar. It feels snowflakey.

Hating their Primarch isn't unique either. The Night Lords hated Curze. Most of the Iron Warriors hated Peturabo.

>>49716013
I mean, someone's got to be at the bottom, right? There's always a best, and there's always a worst.

>>49716025
Yeah this was my thought. They don't get anything out of being the least, in fact, it fucks them up and they have to form ways to crutch that. And they have horrible morale, as you might imagine.

>>49715977
For what they are supposed to be then its good, but personally I'm not super into the Soviet Marines and executing them for failures.

>>49715845
The Steel Marshals' Doctrine is so narrow that they almost seem to be a reverse White Scars, they excel at subverting and defeating heavily-entrenched enemy positions, but what the hell are they going to do against an enemy army on an open battlefield?

And the Stone Men manage to be both wannabe and over-the-top Iron Warriors at once with their Doctrine.

And this seems to be a problem with most of the Legions, but why does your Legion fight the way it does? What is it about their Primarch, his history, and his psychology that causes his Legion to behave and the fight the way they do?

Most of the Legions have Doctrines that seem pretty disjointed with the Legion psychology one might come up with by reading their page.

>>49716025

There doesn't need to be a bottom. There is no bottom with any of the 18 canon Legions. None are objectively the best or the worst. they're all roughly equal. Making one the worst just drags the entire Legiones Astartes down.

>>49716044

I completely agree.

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>>49715916
>Iron Warriors
>not pulverizing

The Stor-Bezashk would like a word with you.

>>49716073

Iron Warriors are not that good with warfare in the open fields. That is what the Cataphracts do best. Fighting across massive fronts hundreds of miles across.

>>49716051
Aside from the damaged gene-seed, most of what he's proposing for the Cataphracts is very Night Lords. Lack of unity, hate their Primarch, all that jazz.

I think he's just describing himself with a bad word choice, calling them the "Least Astartes of the Astartes".

>>49716041
That all said, I see the Storm Bringers there and I am more than willing to work on them, but I'd need to get around the whole not agreeing entirely with weak Soviet Marines.

Maybe they can be Polish-Lithuanian and have Winged Hussars.

>>49716090

I would never have compared the Silver Cataphracts to the Night Lords, but now that you've pointed it out it makes perfect sense. Even down to their style of humour.

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>>49716041
That was to enforce discipline, and they only get executed if they continuously fuck up. I could shorten it to only commanders - then say anyone who volunteers can be a commander. Anyone with the mettle can give it a shot, but fuckups get shot down.

>>49716044
The Silver Cataphracts and Alexandri don't care for honorable warfare. They don't give a damn about engagements and they try to fight with an aim in mind for inflicting as much damage on the enemy while minimizing their own losses. They do this with a cavalier attitude towards the losses of Imperial Army forces(An organization the Legions think are rearguard and garrison forces, not front-line troops, a fact the Cataphracts ignore).

>>49716051
I'd say the Thousand Sons were objectively one of the worst due to genetic failures in their geneseed and an overall low amount of numbers. One of the smallest Legions.

>>49716093
The fall of gene-seed happens in the Scouring. You could say they were a group of Marines on the frontier, thus not affected by Alexandri's ramp up of numbers.

>Slavic themes only
Plz no. They don't all have to Slavic themed. Take only your own inspriation.

>>49716090
>>49716102
>Night Lords
That might be unintentional, as my favorite 40k books are ADB's Night Lords trilogy. But I wanted to make grim, dour marines. And I might be using bad word choice, yeah.

>>49714361
It's not me, and I wouldn't know. I haven't left my barracks room in three days. I've been culturing my beard for four.

Soon I will become the barracks hermit.

>>49714563
Bless thy PT Belt O' Operator.

>>49716051
>None are objectively the best or the worst.

Taken as a whole Legion? I tentatively agree with you.

But as individual soldiers, I disagree.

If you take an Iron Ranger or a Justicar, hell, even a Black Augur and pit them against any of the Loyalist Legionnaires in a "stealth-off," the Loyalists get their butts handed to them 9 out of 10 times.

And the same thing the other way too, you take an average Thunder King and pit him mano-a-mano against a Life Bringer, Justicar, or Zealot, and the Heretics end up starring as the Poor Little White Boy in the Imperial equivalent of Liveleak.

>>49716113
>I'd say the Thousand Sons were objectively one of the worst due to genetic failures in their geneseed and an overall low amount of numbers. One of the smallest Legions.

They were also the most learned, smartest, were incredibly skilled and actually had a future beyond the Crusade, unlike Legions like the Night Lords and World Eaters.

Again, balance. No Legion should be the best or the worst.

>ITT: PT Belts

>>49716113
It seems like the sort of waste that would have made someone step in. Executions for major screw ups I could see, but just having a counter of 4 that includes things that happen naturally in conflict seems silly. Falling back or giving up territory I can see. If a Captain orders the company to retreat, BLAM, Sergeant orders a retreat, BLAM then they just do the Vader thing and promote the nearest dude.

Leads to them having the old Black Templars thing of charging the enemy if they failed moral tests.

I could work with them having been moving around too much for them really to have borne the brunt of Alexandri's ramp up and draconian methods.

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>>49716082
What is it about the Iron Warriors that makes them bad at fighting in open fields? Does their artillery break if a bird accidentally poops on it or something? Open fields are exactly what they need to fight at their best, their siege engines and supply trains need open fields to get from one front to the next.

>>49716153

Marines don't usually fight as individual soldiers.

The exact same thing in canon. A Raven Guard should be able to outstealth an Imperial Fist, and an Ultramarine should be more disciplined than a World Eater. But each Legion as a whole is about equal, their flaws and strengths balancing each other out.

>>49716179
>>49716135
We need someone to give a Space Marine a PT Belt, counts as a Belt of Russ.

>>49716157
Yeah then I'm definitely not explaining myself.

The Silver Cataphracts are excellent post-modern soldiers, but horrible traditional warriors.

>>49716198
I guess the question that needs to be answered then is: What are the Cataphracts' strengths?

We've answered some of their weaknesses already, what's the other half of the coin, and does it balance out?

>>49716208
Markians have a rigorous PT regimen. They wear PT belts.

>>49716190
>I could work with them having been moving around too much for them really to have borne the brunt of Alexandri's ramp up and draconian methods.

Elaborate what you mean? I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. I'm not being derisive, I genuinely want to know but don't quite get what you're going at.

>>49716223
Cataphracts are excellent marksmen, they're proficient in mechanized warfare, they don't care for how many losses they take so long as they can see victory in sight, they're utterly ruthless and will do anything to achieve their aims. And they bring the most guns to bear, on the personal and large scale. Material warfare is their game, and they like to stack the odds in their favor.

Oh man, I'm late to this thread.

So, I have a question for you guys.

My endgame with the Crimson Eagles is for them to have an in legion Civil War, delaying their arrival to the Heresy. The Loyalists will revert to the Liberators, and the Crimson Eagles will go on to tear shit up on Terra.

But to Khorne, or not to Khorne, that is the question?

I can't really see Cal falling to chaos, the Ruinous Powers aren't very democratic, but his marines...I just don't know

>>49716248

Excellent Marksmen is the Eyes of the Emperor, Mechanized Warfare is the Lions Rampant. So the only thing they do alone is the attrition warfare.

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>>49716198
>But each Legion as a whole is about equal, their flaws and strengths balancing each other out.

I know, that's why I agree with you. I only do so tentatively because if the Legion with the most bodies goes after the Legion with the least guys, then the firstest with the mostest wins hands down.

>Marines don't usually fight as individual soldiers.

"That is why no one will remember your name." -Achilles -Michael Scott

>>49716235
You mentioned that the genetics all went to crap during the Scouring, and they could have been away when Alexandri was doing his mass recruitment. So they would have been at the forefront of the Scouring or the Edge of the Empire when it all happened. Also could have been away alot of the Crusade to have escaped excessive executions.

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>>49716256
We have a Khornate Legion though.

>Aren't very democratic

They're actually the epitome of freedom, that's why the Imperium represents Order - through iron wrought control.

>>49716267
Mechanized Warfare is not the Lions Rampart's thing, they're standard armored warfare. That was a reason why the Cataphracts became mechanized warfare, they were originally tankers.

Well originally they were swarm Marines

Then Siege Marines

THEN Tankers

Then back to Siege Marines

Then the Material Warfare, Combined arms approach they have now.

>>49716280
Executions we can discuss. It's never been something I'm too close to my heart, so I'm willing to hear about replacements to the role that idea plays into.

>>49716197

Horus said it best.

>Perturabo – by the gods, Perturabo. He would be left standing while the Khan’s savages ran rings around his trenches, and the Scars have no fortresses for him to lay low.

>>49716126
Well, with Fayetnam your only option, I don't blame you. Request Lewis, Germany, or Italy for your next PCS. Lots of shit to do for any of the 3. But if you go to Germany, be wary of the Green Goose.

>>49716153
Great, now you've planted the idea in my head of a bunch of Orks talking about the various Legions and what to watch out for as a fluff piece I could never do justice.

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>>49716113
>The Silver Cataphracts and Alexandri don't care for honorable warfare.

Demonstrated and explained long before someone even gets to the Cataphracts' Doctrine. Excellent, really, that's what should be the case for all the other Legions.

>Silver Cataphracts are mobile warfare supported by overwhelming firepower in the form of active artillery support.

This however, is unexplained. Why do they fight like that? What is it about Alexandri and the Cataphracts that their combat doctrine centers on a mobile, mechanized infantry closely supported by artillery and armor?

If they want the most hurt on their opponents with the least risk to themselves, then why don't they take the Life Bringer approach and bathe their enemies in toxins from orbit?

Show, rather than just say, why they fight in that specific way. Please.

>>49716297
Well executions can work for some serious offenses. Perhaps exile too or they have a choice between death or exile. Banishing Squads or companies to Expeditionary Fleets, or to defend frontier worlds. Foster more hate for their Lord, also give them a conflict when he recalls them to fight the Heresy.

Do they let their hate for Alexandri threaten to bring down the Imperium? Or can they put it aside to fulfill their duty?

>>49716339
>Request Lewis
Where careers go to die, unless that has changed.

>>49716363

We need to get you to look at all the Legions and their methods of warfare. You're the first person to really take a critical look at them.

I'd be interested in whether I did a good enough job with the Zealots. They're a mix of Word Bearers, Raven Guard and a bit of World Eaters for good measure.

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>>49716302
Horus meant that to say that the Iron Warriors were ponderous and slow, and would be blindsided by a much faster and more mobile enemy, not that the Iron Warriors are bad at fighting in the open.

>>49716378
Well, 5th Brigade isn't there anymore, so there's that. Unless you're talking about the number of DWI's that get accumulated because you're located right on top of 2 major cities and have actual, real-people bars to go to.

>>49716297
>They're actually the epitome of freedom, that's why the Imperium represents Order - through iron wrought control.
Wrong. Serving the Chaos Gods is slavery by a different name.

But the fact we already have a Khornate legion helps me out a lot, although I image they'd be great friends. Who is the Khornate legion?

>>49716339
Green Goose?

>>49716422

Sons of Fire. And they'd probably not get on that well, if these Khornates are more traditional 'kill it with chainxes' compared to 'kill it with fire!'.

Then again that risks yet another Gorgers scenario.

>>49716422
>Green Goose
It's a 3-story bar/nightclub that has started as many shotgun weddings as it has ended engagements and marriages.

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>>49716044
>Most of the Legions have Doctrines that seem pretty disjointed with the Legion psychology one might come up with by reading their page.
b-but not the Entombed r-right?

>>49716439
Let's not do that again.

>>49716415
Nah its not the DWIs I just remember being told by more than a few people that Lewis was a shit hole where they put you when they didnt want you anymore more or less.

Being from the region I could see why people would call it a shit hole.

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>>49716256
The intra-Legion civil wars were necessary for the OU Traitor Legions to purge their ranks of Loyalists, so there's definitely precedent for it. I'm actually really interested on how the Loyalists purge the Traitors from their own Legions.

>the Ruinous Powers aren't very democratic

Sir, I know that you are very busy man who carefully and deliberately spends his time on the important things in life, so I would like to invite you to invest five minutes of your time towards your eternity. Sir, I would like to talk with you about the Gods.

>>49716363
>his however, is unexplained.
Shit.

>then why don't they take the Life Bringer approach and bathe their enemies in toxins from orbit
Well, meta reason number one: I don't particularly like that doctrine, it kinda removes interesting battles from happening without contrivances.
Meta reason number two: It's been done before, by the Life Bringers :v. Even if they bombarded people, they'd hardly be a Legion if all they did was blow stuff up from orbit.

Why they fight in that way...It's Blitzkrieg, that's really where I got it from. Artillery softens up targets, and immediately stops counter attacks from the enemy. Armor takes advantage of enemy weakness in the lines, while mechanized infantry rush in to maintain that advantage. If they enemy tries to bog them down, they can pull back, and cover themselves with artillery. In sieges, artillery and armor are the best for faux-WW2 urban warfare.

>>49716366
I like this a lot, thanks Bloodseer. I'll incorporate when I can. If I don't, don't let me forget it.

>>49716422
>Slavery by a different name

Not entirely. No one makes you serve them. They just offer advantages. Everyone born in the Imperium must worship the Emperor, and must serve.

In the lands of Chaos...no one gives a fuck what you do. That also means no one gives a fuck about you or your life, but that's a freedom of a sort too isn't it?

In the original Realms of Chaos book for First Edition, people joined up with Chaos out of a need to get away from the oppressive Imperium, and it had mad-men and freedom fighters alike in its ranks.