So I have a very simple question:If you had immense god-like powers at your disposal, how exactly could you create a "utopia" for humans?
>>43646188Happiness is mandatory. Failure to comply is treason. Treason is punishable by death.
>>43646188Kill them all, because living is suffering.
That's a ridiculously open question. But this still might be interesting to explore, so let's make some ground rules for what might count as a utopia:>The populace should have free will and just be normal humans. That means no mind-controlled, brain-washed, or lobotomized populations>The population should be almost entirely pleased, or at least content with their life>There should be no mass suffering or pain through war, famine, plague, etc>Sometime should be done about death which helps to alleviate all the pain and problems it can cause. Possibly immortality or an afterlife?Any ideas for some other requirements?
>>43646325>Sometime should be done about death which helps to alleviate all the pain and problems it can cause. Possibly immortality or an afterlife?Immortality has it's own problems such as boredom and lack of motivation. And an afterlife is really just the same as immortality. And on the other end of the spectrum, normal reincarnation is just the same as becoming a totally new person, since you don't retain any memories from your last life. So here, I've come up with a unique new system:Basically, it's a combination of an afterlife and reincarnation. After you die, you spend some time in a place similar to heaven, except for one big difference. In this version, you can see every bad thing that the other occupants of heaven have done. In other words there are no secrets, if someone has committed adultery in their last life you will know that just by looking at them. And depending on how moral you were in life, you will have more or less power in heaven. If you were saintly, then you will have crazy powers to fly around and manipulate the world around you like in the movie What Dreams May Come. And if you were very amoral, then you would have no powers in heaven. After a certain amount of time has passed, you would be reincarnated with no memory of heaven or of your previous lives. Hopefully these systems would strongly encourage people to be moral during their lives.
>>43646188Nothing. If humanity wipes itself out I'll reset the Earth to some earlier time and change something and see if it plays out differently.
>>43646188A group of wanderers, driven by exploration and needing of base desires, darkness, and pain?I'd let them be reborn again and again, sending them to new places, always moving, so that they could love, hate, or fear, their surroundings, but be free from finality. I would bare all of their curses when they wandered away from the world to join with me.
>>43646619Okay, so that covers a lot of stuff, but how would the world be set up?In my experience, societies tend to get along better when they are small and you personally know everyone nearby. So maybe divide humans up into clans of roughly a few hundred people, and have all marriage be within that clan. In fact you would organize arranged marriages based on priests divining who you were pared with a previous life.Maybe each clan's lands is ruled over by a lesser demigod? In fact, the most noble person in heaven at the time could be assigned to be the current god who watches over them, punishes crimes, and guides them.
>>43646188Scan the heart and mind of everyone on earth to identity their most ideal sustainable state, their stability with regards to their preference of such, and their flexibility in considering similar states to be ideal.Compute the state which is compatible with the largest number of people. Result will be moderately weighted in favor of unmodified preferences.Implement identified state.Destroy remaining incompatible population.Establish long-term stability control to maintain state.Establish long-term social controls to maintain general preference for current state.Scan and trim births to remove or modify those who would destabilize state until such time as selection pressure removes said elements from the population.Freeze cellular mutation in humans.Lobotomize self.
>>43646325The free will clause I'm afraid kills this. It doesn't matter if you create an ideal world with infinite resources all it takes is one guy out of a thousand to simply lack empathy and ruin everything for everyone else. The only way to stop that would be to manipulate casualty in such a way that any time such a person were to even begin sharpening their knives to see what the inside of a pretty lady is like they get struck by lightning or hit by a bus.Which ultimately is the same as giving nobody free will since ultimately you're creating a moralistic standpoint and saying "do this or die".
>>43646188I use my powers to give myself perfect understanding. Then I do whatever my new knowledge says is best.
Small groups, but not isolated.Resources aren't free but are easy to get.Some vague source of conflict that doesn't cause mass deaths.For a starting point, I'm imagining peaceful rural villages living on cool temperate plateaus, separated by tropical forests in the lowlands inhabited by carnivores. Life is comfy, but there are periodic travels for villages to meet each other, find some special resource, go hunting etc so that people can have some source of conflict and meaning in their lives. The external conflict also discourages people from turning inward to backstab each other.
>>43646813I disagree. Free will doesn't necessarily mean that every possible choice is open to you. It means that choice exists.In most depictions, a being without free will is incapable of acting without specific direction. It means you do what you are told, and nothing else. A computer has no free will, and as a result it will not act without orders even if doing so would facilitate filling orders it HAS received.Free will, meanwhile, is having the ability to decide your actions without direction, or within bounds of uncertainty within broad direction. It allows one to fill in blanks.Just because a deity has established that certain acts are forbidden does not expressly preclude free will, because Will is the force that tells you TO do something, rather than NOT to.
>>43646221Friend Computer is the only friend I'll ever need unless Friend Computer says otherwise.
>>43646325Does it counts as free-will violation to put every human in a separated matrix-like artificial environment. Then we optimize this environment to maximize of happiness of the human on it. He can still do what he wants but the outcome will be controlled to maximize his happiness.
>>43646813Well free will is overrated. It doesn't have to be drastic mind control though. I say just make certain laws ingrained into their personality and completely unbreakable.Basically Three Laws of Robotics stuff.
>>43646221Nigga you just went full Twilight Zone
>>43646790Scan for these features at birth? But what if these sorts of attributes aren't ingrained from birth, but developed through life experience?
>>43646188what would happen if humanity where to get something like the khala, in the sense that we are able to sense each other emotions, but not strong enough to read each other thoughts.like if someone is doing something wrong or even mean towards someone else the aggressor would feel the pain/sadness of the victim, and be more inclined to stop. would something like this even work?, how much would things change?
>>43646188For humanity, Utopia is another word for Stagnation. Without conflict, there is no life.
>>43648132No, citizen. We are in Alpha Complex. Your confusion regarding your location suggests you desire to be elsewhere. Are you unhappy in Alpha Complex?
>>43648206I don't know. Maybe all of society immediately isolates themselves from one another unless totally necessary?>>43646619>>43646787Okay, but what about technological level? For instance, I have a stupid question, do you think that overall happiness and contentment have gone up in society thanks to modern innovations such as indoor plumbing, central heating/cooling, computers, and such? Or would it be better to go for a pre-modern level of technology?
>>43648281Pre-modern social structures and values made people happy, not pre-modern tech.Keep all of our conveniences, but magic us back to the empires of antiquity.
Eliminate labor.Eliminate poverty.Eliminate material scarcity.Develop medical science sufficient to cure any malady.Imbue human beings with eternal life.Distribute all manner of drugs and encourage their use.Physically beautify human beings to a degree of their own choosing.Eliminate venereal disease, unwanted conception and sexual dysfunction.Encourage deviants and nonconformists to become warriors, explorers, scientists, etc.,etc. Create angelic helpers to assist deviant caste and protect them in the course of their activities across the cosmos.Regulate the day-to-day fine details of my utopia with my omniscience/omnipotence.Protect my utopia from real external threats like natural disasters or unruly invaders.
>>43646188Give everyone their own little infinite universe where they are god.
>>43646188I don't think utopia is feasible even with godlike powers. I could work on making my existence paradise. But I could help a few selected humans out from time to time.
>>43646188"And lo, let goods and resources be exchanged at market value from place to place, person to person."
Utopia in fantasy is always created through some kind of magical means, and "utopia" through scientific means or technocratic means is usually dystopia but branded utopia.I'll just go with BioShock's answer to this; Utopia isn't a place, but a people. Instead of building a place fit for men, I'll build a man whose natural state is utopia, and who will be rugged enough to survive to perpetuate, protect, and propagate utopia on their own.So basically, change the nature of man to create utopia, rather than create utopia and give it to man.
>>43648243It's true, several people throughout history have observed that even if you could create a lasting peace, it wouldn't necessarily be advantageous for humanity in certain aspects. But I've heard of theories for how to simulate conflict without the widespread devastation that things like war can cause. For instance, the book in pic related proposes several possible substitutes for war that would have the same benefits.. For instance: ritualized "blood-sports" that would only require a tiny number of volunteers, the establishment of "Unarmed Forces" which operate almost identically to the military but with a focus on public works and policing, or even a fictionalized external threat such as aliens.See more examples here: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_ironmountain08.htm
>>43646188Remove free will
In my utopia, there will be three genders: men, women, and "catamites" (a term for submissive effeminate males). All men will be able to transform their appearance to any form they desire, and all women / catamites will be exceedingly beautiful. Females will vastly outnumber males, and marriages will have multiple women married to a single male. Girls and catamites will be married off as soon as they are toilet trained, and once they are old enough to walk and talk properly. After the marriage ritual, girls / catamites will never be able to climax from masturbation or from sex with a man or woman from outside of the marriage. However, sexual contact with their husband will give indescribably powerful euphoric orgasms. By law, sexual contact will be limited to oral sex and various types of frottage, until the spouse reaches her 10th birthday. Menstruation will be done away with, and childbirth will be painless.
>>43648357>Eliminate labor.>Eliminate material scarcity.I think you need hard work to feel fulfilled. And in order to have work and/or an economy you need scarcity.>Imbue human beings with eternal life.Wouldn't humans start to suffer from malaise and a lack of motivation with immortality.>Eliminate venereal disease, unwanted conception and sexual dysfunction.Too slutty, ew.
I enforce a powerful empathic connection between all sentient creatures. It's not direct sharing of thoughts, I'm not trying to create a hive mind, but an innate ability to understand and empathize with how others feel. If they feel happy, you feel happy. If they're upset or hurt, you feel a reflection of their pain.This would go beyond simple physical or geographical restrictions, and scale perfectly. A head of state or CEO of a corporation will know exactly how much joy and how much sorrow their actions are creating, and will be utterly unable to escape the real, emotional consequences of their actions.I'm not sure if it'd work, but I'd be interested to see how it would play out. How people would change the way they act and how the function of governments and other organisational bodies would change as they gained access to such real, immediate feedback without any filters.
I don't. I create an utopia for myself.
>>43648755thats what i was trying to get across here, >>43648206but i guess i wasn't clear enough i think this would be one of the best options, not only because you feel how much joy and pain you cause others, but if a stranger is feeling sad/depressed/angry whatever, they would be somewhat more inclined to help them so that the feelings of sadness/depression/anger etc. would go away.
>>43648693I like your idea.
>>43646188Everyone is psionic. Everyone is individual but united. Their natural instincts will still be there, cause mayhem, and a lot if people might get hurt. But when the dust settles, people will learn to cooperate or die starving.
>>43648243There you have it.You plant the seeds of utopia and once Humanity starts to utilize them, you introduce an "Other" that kicks their shit in.White and brown unite to slaughter blue, and now have goals to meet to best do this.
You know, I was thinking up a faction that strived to be one, but it got really close to being a cooperation rather than a country.
>>43648755>>43648937The one thing I'm not sure about is how the scaling would really work. The idea of giving politicians or executives a direct connection to the experience of their populace/workers/customers is a good one, but it could also lead to people becoming incredibly short sighted, aiming for short term pleasure over anything else. The negative side might also be overwhelmingly bad, with an unlucky or incompetent person in a position of power being significantly more likely to commit suicide due to the sheer emotional pressure.Then again, I also think that a new equilibrium might establish itself eventually. After a few crashes, people could be more self aware and considerate of long term happiness instead of a short burst, and the potential threat of power is a pretty fitting balance point to the benefits and advantages it has. It'd also mean anyone who wanted to gain political or economic power would have to be very strong willed, which would also give them the personal strength to make an unpopular decision if they truly believed it was the right one.
>>43646188Build a world that can sustain itself with every single possibility available through its resources both physical and metaphysical. Allow them free will.So... almost the world we live in, actually.
>>43646188>how exactly could you create a "utopia" for humans?Violent tribalism with zero peace.The natural state of human beings is violent tribalism.
i dont think humans need a constant state of war in order to move forward, or so i would like to believe , while it is some thing that has in the past made great advancement in different fields it has brought terrible surrefing as wellhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC45TRP4lq0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbuUW9i-mHs
If I'm a being with immense god-like powers, what purpose do humans serve? They can't do anything for me or teach me anything.
I would separate each race, give them all their own continent with plentiful resources, and then make sure they could never, ever interact
>>43646619If you don't remember your past life or heaven, how does that encourage anything?The system you laid out could technically be how the real world actually works, and we would never be able to tell, because no one would be able to remember.
Honestly, I would just make the world as it is, with the exception that I am the Christian God and there is definite proof I exist.
>>43649841>The Christian God...So a douchebag? Or the modernized version which requires ignoring half the bible?
>>43649856Following the philosophy of Jesus, you little tipper.
>>43649907Which one?Given the huge variety of interpretations possible, just saying 'The Christian God' or 'Jesus' isn't particularly informative.
>>43646325Honestly, the biggest contributor to theft and conquest is uncertainty about the future. If you know you can reliably have a good harvest every year without backbreaking amounts of labor, and that you don't need to be the biggest, baddest civ on the block to ensure your safety, then everything else falls in line.All you'd need for a relative utopia is to give people a guaranteed minimum in food and shelter and dignity, and to intervene in violence before it gets out of hand. People will grow their happiness themselves if you just keep the garden nourished and free of bugs, so to speak.
>>43646188I wouldn't. I am a selfish fuck and that wouldn't change just because I suddenly became a god. I would use my power to make myself comfortable and occasionally meddle in human affairs for my own amusement. People would know that I exist and I would grant favors if I am appeased. The world may become a utopia or a living hell and it will all depend on the gifts that people bring me.
Change the definition and desire of happiness to be in service to the God King.That God King is me.Now we are all happy.
I would found a political community based on my ideals and then invite people to live there who shared my ideals while allowing people who didn't agree with my ideals to leave. I would then trade extensively with normal countries to raise their wealth, and attempt to gradually convert more and more of the world to the ideals of my society.Anything besides this will be doomed to failure, a utopia is limited by people who don't agree with your ideas and morals. And even then, I wouldn't force it to be "perfect" per a traditional account. A little rape and murder is fine, if the alternate is making men into mice in cages or being overly puritanical in my ideals.
The world itself is not Earth, to start. It's an artificial world that is created to respond to the desires of the inhabitants. Those that desire a simple hunter/gatherer lifestyle will be able to do so without the downsides of disease or a lack of education. Every plant will be edible, every animal designed to be an exciting hunt or fierce beast. The world itself can change in response to the overall desires of a group.Those that desire city life will have grand arcologies to dwell in. Places they can research, develop, and grow without worrying about resource shortages. Mass scale needs will be met by machines - work done by people will be done for entertainment or enjoyment. Everyone gets a spacious home. There will be no wage slave type labor. People are free to do whatever work they enjoy.People themselves have been slightly altered. Now they'll have an empathic sense that gives them a way to be aware of the emotions of the people around them. They won't feel them personally; they'll simply have a clear awareness of the true emotions of those around them. People can still grow old and die. However the old age will be largely cosmetic. After a few hundred years they'll expire and a new, young clone will be born. The clone can choose to inherit the memories of their old self or forge new ones. People may choose between this or true immortality and can switch between at any time. Of course there will still be spoilers, the people that gain their joy by harming others or doing damage or dominating others. People such as that are simply given their own restricted territory to go where such behavior is permitted. Outside of this territory machines keep law and order, using advanced algorithms to predict crime before it happens and work to prevent it in a humane way. If a man would go home to shoot his wife and lover he would instead learn about it in a way that does not cause a violent confrontation.
>>43646188Give everyone cute angel waifus that function as sort of a physical conscience. They won't make you do anything, but they care deeply about your wellbeing and want to help you work through any emotional problems you might have.
>>43650093Finally there's a third tier off of the artificial planet itself. Uplifts; humans that have true freedom to do whatever they wish. They're cybernetic gods that are free to travel the galaxy and do as they wish out there. They're kept from the Paradise worlds but are otherwise free to do whatever they please.
>>43649605Take the Ludo-Rathowm route. The primary purpose of mortals is for the entertainment of gods.If they aren't entertaining enough, then alter things to force them to be more.
>>43648842Which is?>>43649044>>43648755I don't like all this pro-hive mind propaganda. Keep humans separate from one another. Melding minds and consciousnesses, and losing individuality is always a bad idea.>>43649050To be clear, OP specified a utopia for HUMANS. So my theory is that we just introduce a non-human enemy that is innately disgusting and monstrous, so that all humans can unite against them>>43649071Communism is the ideal form of government, clearly.
>>43650168Human beings already have empathy. Enhancing our ability to empathize with one another doesn't make us any less human, but it disincentives antisocial or selfish activity by removing the ability to make someone suffer at no cost to yourself. I don't think that involves any loss of individuality.
>>43649084Interesting. Do you think we're living in a utopia? And if not, what exactly is preventing that, if we have all the necessary elements?>>43649319But wouldn't it be rather unpleasant for the person who ends up speared on the end of a pike by the neighboring tribe?>>43649605>>43650136Entertainment is good, think about how often the ancient Greek gods pretended to be mortals and then just wandered the earth messing with people. but also don't forget that you need lots of people for companionship and sex.>>43649642Once you arrive back in heaven, you remember everything from your previous lives. In fact, so does everyone else - in heaven everyone innately knows every single good and bad thing that you've done, as if it were written clearly on your forehead. The implication is that each time you live another mortal "life", you are being tested again to see if you will break the laws under a different circumstance. Also it is a break from the monotony of immortal life so that you are not always conscious of every memory and action you've had. Does that maybe make some sense?Your other question is good though. In this world it would be easy enough to prove for certain that this system of the afterlife is true. Perhaps at an adolescent's coming of age ritual, or during a special festival, you can enter a mystical state where you can see the afterlife along with your ancestors. And you could have priests with added information on the afterlife and people's past lives, as well.>>43649988This might be true, but we still have extreme violence in modern times even among people who have plenty. Murder, rape, adultery, etc.
>>43650093 Interesting theory, but what do you do about reproduction? Will a child born into a hunter-gatherer society automatically enjoy it? What if they might not personally enjoy that lifestyle, but they love their family and wish to stay near to them? Or will you just do away with childbirth entirely, possibly changing how new humans are made, and in the process obliterating the notion of family?
Firstly, ensure there is comfort.>Self sustaining world of plenty allows humans to pursue goals at their leisure>Beauty is prevalent, both in the environment and people>Everyone is ensured comfortable living conditions even without work>Everyone is born with magical potential that makes day to day life much more convenient>Mentors and guardians appointed by my hand every decade will lead humanity in great technological and magical advancements>Perhaps most important, a greater level of empathy and optimism among humansSecond, ensure there is a constant source of conflict and mystery; the former is never caused by humans.>Natural corruption in certain areas must be cleansed>The wilds are filled with monsters that sometimes encroach on cities>Dungeons connected by a mysterious underground network of a long gone civilization>Objects washed up on beaches suggest the existence of never before seen materials exclusive to the oceanHaving a good balance of the two makes it so that people will have things to do instead of just lounging around.
>>43650332>This might be true, but we still have extreme violence in modern times even among people who have plenty. Murder, rape, adultery, etc.True, but it's like Minority Report. You'd just have crimes based on sudden passion/mental illness. 99% of those situations wouldn't ever come about without the lack of stability that exacerbates functional mental illness into dysfunctional and violent tendencies.I mean, if you're omnipotent you could just stop any violence in it's tracks, but I'm more trying to get the most hands-off, best return-on-effort way to run things.
I like the idea of having a widespread influential sacred / mandatory book in my new utopia, like The Bible. But I'm not sure what to pick. Any suggestions for what the greatest literature every written in English is?
>>43648206A good starting point Anon, let's do this and see what happens.
>>43646188Instill full rationality in all human beings.Give all human beings a desire to improve the human civilisation, and put this desire above all other desires.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheMetamorphosisOfPrimeIntellect>But I won't BSOD if logic bombed and since I can actually edit the laws of physics as opposed to just uploading people, I can also fix the heat death and the eventual DDOS attack/memory overfill caused by people breeding more people.
>>43646188Such a thing is impossible while humans are still humans.
>>43650168>To be clear, OP specified a utopia for HUMANS. So my theory is that we just introduce a non-human enemy that is innately disgusting and monstrous, so that all humans can unite against them
>>43648171Their life experience is already controlled such as to support and maintain the existing ideal state. If they'd grow into it, they're fine. If not, they're unsuitable.
>>43648755This sort of thing has a dangerous potential for feedback loops.Like, imagine I'm a naturally pessimistic person. I'm in a poor mood, and as a result the people around me feel a bit more depressed.I can feel THEM becoming depressed as a result of my mood, and I feel awful about dragging them all down with me when they've done nothing to me. As a result, they all feel worse. I feel THAT and become suicidal, because everyone would literally be happier if I were gone. Everybody feels that, and odds are more than a few will feel pity and blame themselves for not keeping up appearances to spare my feelings, and then they start falling into the same self-depreciating loop until we get a DF-tier tantrum spiral.On the other hand, if somebody's just so goddamn happy they can't stand it, everyone around them is going to be happier. They feel that and realize that they're making everyone happy and feel good about it on top of whatever else is going great. As a result everybody gets even MORE happy, and more than a few start getting warm fuzzy togetherness feeling because they like when everyone gets along and is happy together.Next thing you know, there's so many people keeping each other happy that you can't even be sad anymore. You're staring at your cat as he gurgles his last under a car tire and your sadness is squashed and obliterated before a single tear can form.
>>43651711Write your own book of rules.
>>43650469>Second, ensure there is a constant source of conflict and mystery; the former is never caused by humans.http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2244#comic
>>43646188I would destroy all power sources (electricity, nuclear power, oil primarily) and let humanity decline into chaos.And from the rust of civilication will come a new society, cleansed of it's past sins.
This thread is now on suptg.
>>43646188Easy, humans don't die. They go through aging cycles, alternating between normal and Benjamin Button Style. If they are killed by violence, they will go into a spiritual waiting line to be reincarnated. Memories will eventually return in full, but your childhood will only know who your functional skillset, ie how to farm and smith and what not. This implies a limited number of humans, put the cap at 50,000.Nature is fully benign, nothing capable of killing a man except falling off a cliff or something. Humans also have communicable anti-bodies to stave off epidemics. Dogs are plentiful and will congregate around good natured people.I wouldn't change anything else because all the big problems in the world come from fear of dying and overpopulation. If the world is large enough that they can just pick up and move somewhere else, and know that their friends will still be there and still remember them, things will be better.
>>43646188>If you had immense god-like powers at your disposal, how exactly could you create a "utopia" for humans?Why would I want to do that? Humans have got along basically fine without my god-like powers, who am I to say that my vision of society is better for humanity than whatever it figures out on its own? Fuck 'em, they'll get along fine.
>>43646188Kill everybody. Nobody can be sad in grave.
>>43653315Ugh, do I have to? As a god, I'm probably going to be way too busy with my extreme debauchery and hedonism to actually get any writing done
>>43653460>Dogs are plentiful and will congregate around good natured people.I like you.
>>43654011You're a god. Make the time. Literally.
>>43654011>Not wanting to dictate a set a rules and judgements to apply to people without repercussionsWhat's wrong with you?
>>43652604I am a boring god.
>>43653678I humbly disagree.It gets boring.
Why in God's name would you want to create a utopia?
>>43656859Why wouldn't you?