>>43084306
Far too many things to list here.

>>43084306
Whichever one suits your particular political agenda more.

>>43084306
They are many factors as empires where
The British empire and the Roman empire had completely different collapses. You should research about the empire that you want to portray

Roll d6
1. Jews
2. Immigrant
3. euclidean geometry
4. Famine
5. Memes
6. Degenerates

Retarded questions beg retarded answers.

>>43084306
Depends, but the key factor is weakness.

Alexander failed to account for his empire after this death. It was fragile and quickly degenerated into warring factions; the so-called 'successor empires'.

Rome relied over-much on mercenaries, rather than Romanised troops that held loyalty to the empire. Add in incompetent and corrupt emperors and government who couldn't pay the men more loyal to their warchief than Rome and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Britain was weakened by the First World War. She was bankrupt, out of manpower, economically and industrially EXHAUSTED and couldn't afford to maintain her territories against the rising wave of calls for independence and home rule. Thus, the British Empire made cuts, rather than crumbling. In the end, the only different was the speed of the decline. She could have held on, but for her duration, none of the subjects in the colonies had been integrated into British culture, the way the Romans would have. This meant that over time, they wanted home rule, rather than gaining loyalty to the Empire.

For an empire to succeed, it has to be strong and it has to be inclusive, giving all conquered, subjugated, or subsumed people a stake in the Empire, a cultural connection to the ruling Empire and a feeling that they are valued, rather than human resources.

>>43084589
OP here.

See, faggots? This is how its done.

Anyway thanks for a nice answer. I always thought its mostly corruption and ever-worse tax collection ratio.

>>43084641
>OP here!
>See faggots? This is how you do my homework because i'm an underage shitwad that can't google or make researchwork for myself!!
>Now I will make another quest thread and a slave elf wut meme

>>43084641
>I always thought its mostly corruption and ever-worse tax collection ratio.

But that's right, you faggot. It all factors into each other. In the end, the Roman Empire was an empire in name only. The different rulers of different parts of it were already de facto kings. And the power of the empire waned as these increasing localised powers decided the the empire didn't do anything for them, and didn't deserve the taxes it demanded. Which led to the empire being even more incapable. And without taxes, it was impossible to keep a good fighting force around to guard the frontier.

Throughout its history the Roman Empire has had safeguards in place to protect it from itself. And to prevent exactly this sort of powergrabbing.

Rolled 4 (1d6)

>>43084527

>>43084306
Most of the time it was because of the empire became lazy because of its succes which enabled other nations to surpass it.

>>43084527
>Jews

This

>>43084766
The dice gods have spoken. The true cause of the fall of all empires have always and will forever be, at it's root at the very least, due to famine.

>>43084306
Depends on what kind of empire it is.

>>43084589
In Romes account it was mostly rich fucks not paying taxes.
The richest province of the western empire, Africa, was entirely owned by a few senators that payed 0 taxes, for example.

>>43085253
There is actually an element of truth to that. If you can't feed the people and especially the soldiers, your empire won't last long. You'll have all sorts of internal issues that will prevent you from expanding, consolidating, or developing. And in earlier empires, much of the wealth was tied to the land. A few years of bad harvests with no reserves can DEVASTATE an economy where agriculture was one of the primary employments.

>>43085313
See my point about corrupt governments... I'm pretty sure rich upper-class elites not paying a bent sestertius out of their vast private coffers counts as 'corruption'.

Wait, what's the tax rate for rich Americans currently?

>>43084306
Pre-modern technology is good enough to organize an state strong enough to conquer a lot of other less organized people.

It's not so good at keeping the territory administered and well-organized. Considering good organization is vital for self-defense, this makes big enough states (empires) to be more vulnerable to strong enough external threats than smaller but more manageable states (let's call them kingdoms).

The lack of organization itself can be even more destructive than the external threat. If an autonomous enough part of the territory decides that paying to the central administration is not worthy (because the empire is too big and it's power doesn't properly reach the place), they may try to rebel to change this. If enough regions feel the central state doesn't satisfy their demands, the empire will not be able to crush them all.

In the end of the day, empires stop to be when they cannot afford to continue existing. Other factors will be clue to determine what makes the empire affordable or not, but those can vary a lot.

>>43084734
What sort of safeguards were these? Genuinely curious

>>43084589
There's also something to be said for over-extension and corruption. Grow too fast and you can have issues keeping your gains, thereby destabilizing your core. Have too much surplus that you don't mobilize and people will find a way to exploit it for personal gain, and when you need it it'll be gone.

It's not so much that you need to be strong as that you need to play to your strengths.

>>43084306
> What factors undermine them?
Imo - economical (though, that's Marxist speaking). I.e. exhausted resources.

Rome, for example, had run out of cheap iron and was unable to cope with it. British Empire had effectively (i'm oversimplifying things) run out of cheap labour.

>>43085488
It's more about missmanagement of the ressources (producing a de facto exhaustion, that's right) than about really exhausting them. For example, the spaniards swimed in gold and silver yet that was mostly BAD for them.

>>43085551
Spanish empire and its failings always amazed me. They were so rich, hou could they not just wreck UK or at least grind it to its knees?

>>43085591
Well, it´s true that Spain was rich, but not the right kind of rich.

While other european countries developed a strong burgueoisie, Spain just lagged behind. Guilds played a huge role in the spanish economy up until the 19th centry, and since they controlled production, prices and innovation,there really weren't the condition to forma capitalist society. The nobility and the clergy were really powerful there and often opposed the developement of the burgueoisie. Moreover, Spain exhausted its resources in european wars all throughout the 17th century.

>>43085551
> gold and silver
Not a proper resource. At the end of the day it is still just a luxury.

Also, if you take a closer look - Spain DID exhaust it: price of silver and gold dropped, leading to effective exhaustion of the Expensive Silver they were initially mining.

>>43085732
> Guilds
How does relying on guilds hinder capitalism (i.e. industrial economy)?

>>43085793
If everyone is in a guild then everyone makes swords THIS way. Trying to make swords a different way and selling them for a different price means you get kicked out of the guild, even if it would have resulted in a better sword; in other words, it actively discouraged innovation.

>>43085811
Ah. You mean monopoly of a single guild, not a bunch of competing guilds in different cities. Or nations.

>>43085591
If you're asking about military (others awnsered the rest), it's lack of modern tech. All the gold and soldiers in the world mean "nothing" when you need a logistical feat such as El Camino Español to field a couple of men.

>>43085346
>Wait, what's the tax rate for rich Americans currently?

Negative for some.

>>43085346
>Wait, what's the tax rate for rich Americans currently?

Rich American here. What the fuck is a tax rate?

>>43085824
Well, that was how guilds were ran back then. The guilds you are decribing are just capitalist companies under another name.

>>43085824
Guildmembers tend to band together for monopoly or duopoly reasons. If everyone in a city agrees to set prices at X, which will have a 25% profitability, then everyone will set it at X and won't bother trying to improve.
To use a parallel experience in modern life, US the internet stagnation and how it took Google -- a new entity -- to kick the ass of Comcast and the other two big ones who elude me offhand to get them to actually improve.

>>43085346
>Wait, what's the tax rate for rich Americans currently?
The 2014-2015 top bracket for federal income tax is 39.6%, which starts at $413,201 or more gross income for single filers. This is in addition to state income taxes (which vary; in my state, the highest bracket is 5.75%, starting at $250,000 gross income for single filers), property taxes, mandatory fees for various certificates and registrations, and compulsory union dues if applicable.

This is all before deductions, of course.

>>43085419
During the Republican era, Roman generals couldn't enter Italy with their armies. The border was at the river Rubicon, hence the expression "crossing the Rubicon", because that's what Caesar did. The Senate also refused to assign rich area's to conquer to people who might grow too powerful off them. This alone saved Egypt from being annexed for quite a while, as it was so rich it'd run the risk of turning its conquerer into a dictator.

During the Empire the empire was divided into different administrative regions with the express purpose of avoiding a centre of power from forming. Troops were also stationed at the frontier not only to ward off invasion, but to avoid large troop concentrations that were sittingi dle, and were more loyal to their commander than to the emperor.

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>>43085346
>Wait, what's the tax rate for rich Americans currently?
Tax... Rate?

>>43085913
"Rich" person here, I pay about half my income in taxes every year.

>>43085878
> capitalist companies
Socialist. Guilds are basically cooperatives, no?

>>43084306

Useless question, every empire dies from a different set of circumstances. About the only thing they have in common is "failing to adapt to changing circumstances", a failure so general an universal as to go without saying.

>>43086043
You can have a cooperative compete in a capitalist economy.

>>43084589
>>43085458

The thing we learned in Byzantine History (which starts with Crisis of the Third Century) was that the primary cause of the Roman Empire's collapse was that there was simply no effort put into constantly updating the Imperial Administration, or even fixing the general entropy of local aristocracy and letting them simply die off and replaced with slapdash bureaucracy.

Couple that with costly wars against a resurgent Persian Empire (under the Sassanids) and barbarian migrations and you've got a recipe for disaster. The Roman Empire of 235 was simply not as elastic or adaptable as the Roman Empire of 1 AD.

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>>43084306
Your reply

>>43086134
Why someone chose a polish series about tankists for the background?

One of the many, many causes for Rome's decline occurred when it stopped expansions expanding. Rome relied heavily on income from conquered areas, largely in the form of slaves. When they stopped expanding everything became too expensive and unwieldy.

I place most of the blame on the whole emperor thing. They did some good, but they had too much power, quick caused the office to be a liability. It was too desirable.
Having weak generals and a weak emperor meant nothing would get done.
Having weak generals and a strong empire would keep things stable, but no expansion would occur.
A strong general or generals and a weak emperor would result in a coup or civil war--the strong general would try to take power.
A strong general and strong emperor would end with the emperor assassinating the general or pulling funding from their war efforts because a conquering general would have the popularity to seize power.

It was a no-win situation.

Asimov used this principle as a plot point in hisFoundation series.

Like, literally ten million different things. More, even.

Empires are complex shit man, and they don't fall for one reason only.

I mean, even the ones that fell fast like the Sassanid Empire to the Arabs fell because of other factors; such as the devastating war against the Eastern Romans they had just waged that had left both sides impoverished and low on... everything, especially manpower.

>>43084589
>How do strong empires fail?
>They become weak!

Thank you for this absolutely enlightening theory of history.

Correct answers in this thread are those that talk about state formation and the decline of the state via a lack of a self-functioning civil society i.e. empires that relied on Emperors failed , decentralization due to distance and time e.g. Alexander, the rise of powers outside of the state e.g. landlords or regional warlords, and innumerable other factors. A smart person will realize these are often contradictory e.g. the creation of a strong civil bureaucracy to administer faraway lands lends itself to the creation of independent powers apart from the state.

Factors include natural disaster and ecology, war, means of transport, and very importantly technology. The ways in which an empire can squish time and space by, for example, using fast and reliable boats to travel up and down river systems, increases the powers of the state. And all of these factors create a sort of paradim of work and daily life that defines the culture and social relations of a society and, therefore, its classes and mode of production.

But what one must understand is that these are very general statements. There is no metaphysical key to history and the study of empires across history and around the globe does not lend itself to anything but the most general of empirical statements. It also ties in deeply to theories of history--perhaps a focus on the empirical and materal is not good enough for you, and you instead attribute motive force in history to the will of a man or the zeitgeist of the age, or something like that. You might even believe there is a metaphysical key to history.

History is not easy. The reason why it is a field is because our understanding of history, and historiography, are some of the essential philosophical questions in understanding our relations to others. It is deeply personal, explicitly political, and maybe even unfathomable.

>>43086096
And your point is ...?

No Empire is the same. Hell, even the term "Empire" is disingenuous here- an empire is just a multicultural state formed of many provinces under a single authority.

The differences between the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Mongol Empire, the Incan Empire, and, say, the Aztec Empire is just so huge that making a detailed comparison between just two of them would take days at minimum. These nations have different people/culture, different techologies, different resources, different climates, different geography, different ideas, different neighbors, different governments... honestly, the differences are far greater in number than similarities, and likewise, the differences in the their falls far outnumbers the similarities- Empires don't falls for one reason or even group of reasons, save that no group can remain strong forever.

>>43086350
The point is that you understand neither capitalism nor socialism. But again history is hard. Guilds drove early craft mercantile capitalism, but they were essentially pre-capitalism forms of organization because price and production were set by custom and not by the drive to invest capital into the means of production, but that is itself a generalization. And then the guilds were direct precursors to mutual aid associations and craft associations, themselves precursors to tradr and labor unions--what you might consider socialistic forms.

>>43086429
A lot of empires are built on an idea-they are the most powerful entity in their area.

When the empire loses its authority in some way, it can rapidly collapse. The ottoman empire was the only one that collapsed due to war-because its islamization of its subjects. Other empires control subject peoples, who will overthrow their rulers when they get the chance.

>>43084589
Someone read The Prince

>>43084641
How about you google it, and then after you aquire a decent knowledge base you come back to funpost.
Men have written and talked about the subject for as long as you can imagine, so go and check that out first.

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>>43086452
> you understand neither capitalism nor socialism
Lol.

Anyway, arguing with Americans about socialism is kinda retarded. In case you (at some undetermined point in future) will get interested: socialism is about ownership of means of production. I.e. worker-owned/managed company is a socialist company. It doesn't have to exist in a state with centralized economy or support LGBT to be socialist.

>>43086554
Maybe in some fucking Fouierist sense, you gutless utopian.

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>>43084306
>Majored in Roman history
>learned that Rome had multiple opportunities to come back from the brink
>each one was foiled by stupidity and bad luck
>mfw Rome could have survived to this day

Mesopotamian Empire exhausted its soil to support too dense a population.

>>43086624

>tfw the Battle of Yarmuck Valley changed world history for the worse.

>>43086624
>Rome had multiple opportunities to come back from the brink

Examples?

>>43086648
I can't remember them all. Here are the few i do remember.

>Western Empire was going to offer the Germanic tribes full Roman citizenship with no taxes if they defended their northern borders. Sent a diplomat and a shit ton of gold as a present. Diplomat got greedy and took all the gold for himself.
>Daughter of the Eastern Empire was engaged to be married to Charlemagne. The East and West would have been reunited under one Empire. However she fell in a river on the journey to Francia and died of Pneumonia

>>43086624
I feel the same way about British post-Roman history.

You can see that England was nearly made into a unified and functioning nation by what Roman influence was left, Saxon Mercenaries and some of the more reasonable tribal leaders.

But it never quite took off.

>>43086714
Holy shit.

That's some serious Nat 1 shenanigans.

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>>43086732
>Europe's aggressive expansion and advancements were all because each kingdom wanted to be like Rome
>tfw Europe owes Rome everything

>>43084306
DRINKING WATER FROM LEAD PIPES MATE

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>>43086646

The Caliphate was blessed with brilliant minds, excellent weather and perfect opportunities for conquest so many times it honestly makes me wonder if they really did have the power of God on their side.

The Battle of Yarmuck Valley should have been a Byzantine victory, and because it wasn't Islam was allowed to spread into Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt, Levant and North Africa.

>>43086714
Are you fucking kidding me? You really can't make this shit up, can you!?

I swear, if this was in a game, I'd call bullshit about GM fiat at the pneumonia. It's almost laughable! Almost...

>>43086732
Harold the Great... So SO close. Makes you wonder one of those what-if situations.

And then there's the Empire. If we had just INCORPORATED subject regions, the Empire would still be going strong! But no, we had to use the local leaders as puppets and let them be. Light touch was a good idea, but ultimately, it just left the populace resentful of the people at the top.

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>>43086714
>However she fell in a river on the journey to Francia and died of Pneumonia
>Rome would have continued if one girl didn't fall in a river

I've never been soo sad about something in history in my life

>>43086756
Who was Harold the Great?

>>43086799
Exactly.

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>>43086769

Oh, it gets worse.

The Byzantine Empire under Basil II was on very good terms with the current Holy Roman Emperor at the time, so much so that he considered uniting the Roman Empire once more with *another* Imperial marriage.

But the Holy Roman Emperor caught a cold and died while the Princess was en route to Germany.

This is also the same Emperor that spent his life conquering in the name of Constantinople, but during it all forgot to get married and died childless, leaving the diadem to his brother (who had never ruled a thing in his life) who bungled all he managed.

>>43086810
Enquiring minds want to know!

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>>43086756
>tfw the Commonwealth never took off

If only Cromwell's son wasn't a complete retard

>>43086769
>Rome would have continued if one girl didn't fall in a river
An Empire is already dead, if its existence relies on one girl.

If this girl wouldn't fall, some other will.

>>43086769
No crystal ball into what 'might' have happened in history unfortunately. The Rome that would've continued had that particular marriage occurred would hardly have been Roman in the sense that most people understand that word.

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>>43086824
>>43086714

>Literally two chances to reunite Rome through marriage

How? How can they have that much bad luck?
>Both times fuck up

>>43086838
It's because he was his own counterrevolution. Should have taken the Leveller oath.

>>43086554
Just because most people in my country don't understand the concept doesn't give you the license to talk down to me or other people about the topic, or assume we don't know about it either.

You insult our intelligence.

Distinctions like that are the bread and butter of upper division classes in our Universities about social and political topics relating to the matter. It's like you don't think we have courses that would speak to that. And we do. Hell, they had TWO seminars in my University about political discourse and movements in the relevant period and no small amount of time was spent on the finer points.

Never mind that it's unavoidable to get the basic definition at some point because you need at least one course that would pass over it some point for a degree requirement.

I guess what I'm saying is fuck you buddy.

>>43086799
>>43086810
>>43086832
Fuck my LIFE. I meant Alfred. ALFRED the great. Where the FUCK did I get HAROLD from?!

Oh wait... Guy who lost to William the Conqueror. My bad guys. Uhh...

>>43086843
well at that time the Eastern Empire was still strong. All that marriage would have done was reunite the two halves which would have given the western half valuable funds and the east valuable troops

>>43086856
Alfred was a big success though. His legacy is really major. Hardly forgotten or a failure.

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>>43086856
>>43086868
>mfw no one remembers Godwin, Earl of Wessex

>>43086843

The Makedon Dynasty were the glory days of the Empire, this was them trying to finally mend a political schism.

They weren't weak, there just wasn't a lot of ways to unite two huge empires without marriage and every marriage prospect wound up dying.

>>43086868
This. Scholarship points to the Normans really just taking over the administrative forms left behind by Alfred, which did mean a change in court and aristocratic life, but the cultural and social projects begun under Alfred hummed along in common life just find.

>>43086867
Just my opinion, but I can't see how it would have worked out as anything more than a more complex alliance. Charlemagne's 'empire' would have still collapsed after his death for the exact same reasons, I can't see Byzantine administration being imposed over all those Frankish lords willingly. Probably wouldn't have achieved much more than giving Charlemagne more legitimacy in declaring himself Holy 'Roman' Emperor.

>>43085996
Then you aren't rich; if you were you'd be paying an accountant to reduce your tax by various inventive, morally dubious but perfectly legal schemes, e.g. declaring yourself a corporation

>>43086905
It was more that their child would be crowned king of Both Empires

>>43086867
>>43086905
>>43086887
>>43086849
>>43086824
>>43086769
>>43086714

If this was a game of Crusader Kings 2 I would be screaming FUCKING BULLSHIT at the screen by that point. That is the point where it goes full DM Railroad rocks fall no more Rome no saving throws.

>>43086905
If I remember correctly part of the deal was that if they had a child they would rule over both Empires and be crowned Roman Emperor

>>43086868
Oh I'm aware. There's a reason he's the only English king remembered with 'The Great'.

I just wish he'd gone a LITTLE further... He brought England back from the brink, but what if he'd gone further? What if England had really risen into greatness so early in history? We'll never know. But I wish we did.

>>43086266
>It was a no-win situation.

Easy start fucking the emperor or fuck the general

Next


I'll fix your empire for you my services cost a county and one of your daughters this was was for free

>>43086883
>the great Earl Godwin was proved guilty by the justice of that age of having encompassed the death of the King's brother. Earl Godwin broke a piece of bread and held it in his hand. 'If I am guilty,' said the Earl, 'may this bread choke me when I eat it!' Then he put the bread into his mouth and swallowed it, and it choked him, and he died.

>>43086924
Oh I understand that, I just think it would've looked more like the Hapsburg Empire rather than the Roman Empire. Charlemagne's lands were very feudal at the time, to the extent that I can't reasonably see the imposition of a Roman style provincial administration re-occurring.

Let's not forget how coupe-ridden Byzantine politics of the time were, Empress Irene had a lot of political enemies back home. If she were to hitch up and move over to France, she'd have lost a lot of her support in the Byzantine court and I'm almost certain someone would've made a grab for power rather than accept her son. I understand that lands have been united by marriage and endured before, but the Byzantines and Franks of this era were just such entirely different kingdoms that I think it would have been a thoroughly feudal affair, and thus would have inevitably fragmented.

>>43086919
I make 750 grand a year, dependent on how much work there is. Closer to 700 now that Obamacare is a thing. That's still fairly wealthy.

Of course there are ways to get around it. The thing is, most people of my income bracket don't use them. We are the uppermost middle class, perhaps even the lowest crust of the upper class. We get utterly FUCKED by America's tax system.

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>>43084306
I have the perfect image for this.

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>>43086934

>Battle of Manzikert
>Byzantines have this in the bag
>Norman Mercenaries with a beef against the Emperor suddenly flee the battlefield claiming all is lost, causing the center to collapse and leading to a crushing defeat

Normans get the FUCK out.

REEEEEE

>>43086961
you also forget the massive hardon both nations had for the old Roman Empire. Given the chance to form what would essentially be an unstoppable juggernaut both side would jump at the chance

Get the fuck out the past

Build a new empire

With less hookers and blow this time

>>43086960
Real or myth?

>>43086987
They had a hardon for the old Empire mostly only for rhetoric, and the fact that it gave their rulers more legitimacy. You gotta remember that realpolitik going on in both nations, especially the Byzantines. The Nobles didn't necessarily put the nations interests above their own. These people didn't necessarily share our modern Rome Total War-esque desire to make a big chunk of the map the same colour. I'm not arguing that Charlemagne, Irene, and the Emperor might've liked that idea, I'm just saying I don't think, given how feudal the Franks were and how much political intrigue there was in the Byzantine Court, that it could've worked long term.

>>43087022
They say he choked on a piece of bread during dinner. Most historians believe this was propaganda and that he died of a heart attack or stroke

>>43086939
Hey, he set the foundations for his grandson Athelstan become the first king of a unified England. England was already a cultural entity, but not a political one still being made up of multiple seperate kingdoms.

In many ways the rise of Wessex is less a glorious Anglo-Saxon reconquista and more a pushy southern kingdom annexing its neighbours. Northumbria was never previously subordinate to the South and quite happy with the Danelaw arrangement.

Besides, Post-Alfred England was the most centralised, literate and the wealthiest per capita state in Western Europe. Her coinage was used across the continent for its purity. Thats pretty great by any standards.

Honestly, there is not much more Alfred could have done beyond possibly speed up unification by a generation, but after that it is pretty much OTL.

>>43086968
Although this is positivism at its best (which is pretty bad) this raises a few valid points.

>>43085346

Higher than any other group of people in the U.S

They pay like over 60% of the taxes in the U.S

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>>43087104
Makes me proud to be a Wessexer. All the best bits of England and only some of the bad bits!

>>43087116
Seems more hermeneutic than positivistic imo.

>>43086746
Maybe we should take a page from the handbook Africa and the Islamic world are going by, drop everything we do, and bitterly whine that we are disadvantaged because Rome oppressed us, robbed us of our resources, and Italy should pay for us to sit on our asses into eternity.

>>43087468
>B-but muh slavury
No shit.

You know what other culture has had large amounts of its population enslaved at one point or another?

FUCKING ALL OF THEM YOU DENSE CUNTS

>>43087710
Japan

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>>43084306
>tfw it was all real

The latter day empires, (ottoman, austria-hungary and russia/soviet union) collapsed due to being compromised of many peoples with different languages and cultures who occupied territory with different econimical needs,

>>43086134
why the fuck is /TG/ referencing an old Polish television series?

>>43086968

This image has been making rounds on /tg/ for ages. I can't remember if I originally saw it and save it here or somewhere else.

>>43086750
> all of these regions are to this very day backwards hellholes

>>43084306
>daily reminder that Roman civilization didn't fall, only the Roman government

>>43087889
because it's a good, multi use refrence

>>43084306
It's always an inside job.

>>43087006
>With less hookers and blow this time

Then whats the point of building an Empire?

>>43086934
It's at that point that the cheats start to get used.

Don't fucking judge me on that. I only ever use them to make a better historical narrative.

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this sort-of explains.

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>>43090983
and part 2

>>43090983
except that it doesn't

>>43089333

>Backwards hellholes

And yet they're colonizing Europe, your point?

>>43087710
>FUCKING ALL OF THEM YOU DENSE CUNTS

I think Japan is the only country that has never had a foreign soldier step foot on their soil during a time of war.

Truly it's a magical place.

>>43086967
How much money do you make after taxes?

Stop obsessing over Rome.

The life for an average citizen was shit. You'd all be fucking dead if Rome was still around today.

Fucking amateur hour on /tg/ lately.

>>43091042

Iwo Jima

>>43091137

You aint very smart, aint you?

>>43091194
Examples of how it'd be better.

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>>43091137

>>43084306
>>>/lit/, >>>/pol/ or >>>/int/

>>43091169

Hate to be the guy that sounds like he's petty, but I'm not sure Iwo Jima counts considering it's location. It's a territory more than a "part of Japan."

I guess I mean the Japanese archipelago (Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu) when I made my claim.

fucking /pol/ kids shitting up our tabletop

why can't these cucks stick to their own shitty board?

>>43084589
The last part is wrong. You need to replace the populations of conquered territory with the empires founding ethnicity

I am genuinely curious about why people think a Roman Empire today would be a good thing. Life for the average citizen was pretty shit unless you were a rich fuck or a soldier.

Most people on 4chan don't even have skills for TODAY'S life, let alone a life in something as strict as the Roman Empire.

I just think it's for people to go "muh perfect no minorities" fantasy or some shit.

Remember when racism on 4chan was just a joke?

>>43091042
That's because they surrendered before the boats got there, Goto.

>>43091050
Now? Last year was about $360k. I own my own practice.

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>>43091415
All countries were like that. They evolve over time.
>No Minorities
>Rome

>>43087133

As well it fucking should be considering they have the majority of our wealth

>>43091335
Way to waste hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of would-be subjects and workers, not to mention undertake the monumental task of corralling and wiping out or deporting the natives. That's to say nothing of survivors or resistance that may object to it, or in the modern world, international pressure.

>>43091828
It's almost like the best option is to Not expand your own borders

>>43091828
I'm playing the long game here, pal.

>>43085591
Their money kept diverting to warzones or special interests until they couldn't keep up. Everyone basically teamed up to bring them down as well. It wasn't just England they were fighting, but the Dutch, French, Portuguese, Barbary Coast, Italy, Protestant Germany, and the Turks.

>>43089333
Because of the Mongols and other nomads. These regions were powerful and advanced in the Abbasid period.

>>43091503
dude 50% of your income at the top tax level is not a lot, in fact its piss low. I make 4k zl (polish) and i pay around 40. To be frank with your income you shold be paying around 70

>>43092511
hard to make an exact equivalency here because America's welfare state is really cheap compared to most in the high-tax Euro states, Americans are usually closer to 15-20% depending on income and tax breaks
It'd be completely okay and sustainable if not for the issue he brought up, being tax loopholes, which the government is literally refusing to close up because it'd "strain the upper class too much", even though it would let them tax less overall

>>43091335
Oh like in the US-oh wait the British-originating population left the empire even earlier than everything else and that's with a significant amount of 1st generation immigrants fresh from the homeland.

>>43092511
>dude 50% of your income at the top tax level is not a lot, in fact its piss low.
Literally HALF the money I make I don't even get to use. Is that fair? Is that right? I clawed my way up from the bottom, I built this practice, I deserve the money I make. Yes, I understand taxes are important. But you're telling me that giving half my income away to the most incompetent money waster on the planet ISN'T ENOUGH? What the actual fuck. These fuckers just implemented ICP 10. They took the number of existing medical codes there were and multiplied that by 8. For no added benefit. This does not help the patients at all, and in fact it hurts them, because I have to spend more of my time jumping through these unnecessarily large hoops, less time looking after them.

Look. If I only get to use half my money at this income bracket, then what's the point of making all this money? Why should I bust my ass working as much as I do, even when I'm at home? Why should I have built up this practice? No, fuck you. I'm entitled to the money I make. I could deal with 20%. I could deal with 30%. I could even deal with 40%. I've done all these things in the past. But 50% is absolute and complete bullshit.

Don't try and base your thinking about what it's like in Europe. The United States is nothing like that.

>>43092806
Would you not agree that closing tax loopholes, and lowering the overall amount taxed to compensate, would make everything easier for everybody?

>>43092806
>ICP
Whoops, that should be ICD.

>>43092806
Except it's not your money.
Render unto caesar and all that. That money is just a loan which you have to pat back the interest on. Don't like it? Make your own system, and try to convince people to use it.

>>43084306

Liberals.

>>43092950
>That money is just a loan which you have to pat back the interest on.
Excuse me? Are you being serious right now?

>>43092806
You don't like the tax rate. That's cool.

But are you suggesting that if the tax rate went up you'd just stop working and bugger off?

>>43093107
Yes. That's the basic premise of how money works. If you don't want to use that system, go find something to barter with.

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>>43086624
>implying any of the plans would actually work

>>43086987
>>43086961
This huge moloch would never work. No way. Charlemagne and later western emperors spend their lives riding across the country and personally reminding vassals who is their boss. The same for Byzantine empire. With the emperor on the other side of the world it would take like week before some coup. Economies, societies or even churches were very different and incompatible.

>>43092950
>>43093135
I bet you can't even list the 3 uses of money.

>>43093135
No, it's not. Not at all.

>>43084527
fun game

>>43093131
>But are you suggesting that if the tax rate went up you'd just stop working and bugger off?
No, I'm saying that if it was any higher there's no way in hell I'd have worked as hard as I did to reach where I'm at. I came from literally nothing. I started working when I was 12. I paid my own way through college. Then through med school. I didn't get a dime from my parents, and I didn't expect to. But why would I work 70 hours a week if I'm not entitled to most of the money I make?

>>43092806
But what would you spend it on?

>>43093339
Ah I see. That still answers my question to a degree. Thank you.

>>43093339
If half of it never even reaches you, did you even earn it in the first place, like the money you think you're losing is just bureaucratic magic between your employer and the government?

>>43093345
My wife. My kids. My grandkids. Lord knows that my son-in-law doesn't make enough money to send all his kids through college. After that, I'd probably spend some money for myself. Get a new car, maybe actually get a BTR. Give some money to charities, go on a vacation. You know, normal stuff.

>>43093401
It does reach me, I just don't spend it because I need it to pay my taxes. It's called budgeting.

>>43092806
You profit off your society and pay for the privilege to do so. If you have profited SO MUCH, it seems reasonable you should pay more back.

>>43091415
>muh minorities

>>43091042

Yes. Magical. Also irradiated.

>>43091415

You think people think there were no minorities in the Roman Empire? The Roman Empire is generally famous as the ancient melting pot empire.

>>43094598
I already DO pay back society, and that's not my issue. My issue is that they're taking literally half of MY money to do so. How is that fair?

>>43084306
>what causes the end of Empires?
There are diminishing returns on bread & circuses.

>>43095102
Yes. You do pay back society by paying your taxes.
You pay for the right to live in your society. That's how it works. If you don't think it's worth it, you can always vote with your dollar and move somewhere else.

>>43084306

the decay of racial homogeneity for one

>>43095296
>the right
Not him but you're literally born into a society. It's not a right it's a part of your identity and history.

>>43095338
>implying race matters more than loyalty and civic involvement

If you speak Latin and your loyalty is to the Emperor, who cares whether you're a pale barbarian or a burnt one?

What was life for the average Roman citizen like after the collapse of the SPQR? Was there widespread anarchy, how did their quality of life change?

>>43095102
It's fair because your money is given to millions of people who need it and helps them to have the opportunities (that you have had, whether you want to pretend your success is a product of just hard work or not) so that they can become successful and highly productive as well.

>>43095412
>what was life like for the average roman citizen after the collapse of roman citizenship
I dunno anon.

>>43095296
Are you just stupid or are you just being willfully obtuse? I told you I understood that. I then asked you a question. Did you deign to answer? No, of course not. You'd rather bitch at me for having the gall to complain that paying HALF his income in taxes is too much.

>>43095434
Well, most people lived in isolated villages. Outside of military protection and who they paid their taxes to, would they even notice much of a change?

If the federal government collapsed today, there would be issues with things we take for granted now, like electricity, running water, internet, tax distribution (more severely than Rome), etc.

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>>43092950

>>43095403

Loyalty stems originally from the family unit.

One's race is an extension of the family.

>>43095615
My family unit is better than yours.

>>43095426
As for whether or not my opportunities came from government help, that's a load of bullshit. The only money I ever received from the government was in the form of public goods and services. And Medicare/Medicaid, seeing as I'm a doctor and they are the insurance many people use(By the way, they don't pay nearly as much as they should, making it uneconomical to actually see those patients).

And I understand that taxes are important. This is not that argument. My argument here, which you lot seem to completely not understand, is that they're taking far too bloody much of it. Is taking half a man's income away too much? And then when I die, HALF of the money I've built up is taken away by taxes. Unless you game the system in some way, the government takes 1/2 your net worth away when you die. Is that fair? Should I be taxed so heavily?

>>43095615
family bonds are the same thing as friendship bonds, anon, only society makes them different

>>43092862
>closing tax loopholes

but that would limit the power and influence of the federal government, can't have that.

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>>43084306

Complacency.

>We'll be fine. Trust me

>>43095643

lol no

>>43095640

That might actually be true you know.

>>43095641
Yes, you should, because overall, it's better for the nation on the whole. Your money sent to the government improves the quality of the country, allowing you and everyone else to make more money. Besides, those public services, hilariously enough, cost money. Money gathered through tax, anon.

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>>43095677
>lol no
Alright, anon.

>>43095690
Not him but why should I put the nation's wellbeing ahead of mine?!

>>43084306
Mass uncontrolled immigration and invasion.

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>>43095720

>>43085346

Given congress' habit of writing the pentagon blank checks, not enough

>>43095763
For the greater good. Needs of the many and all that jazz.

>>43095763
Because the nation's well-being contributes to your own well-being. No matter what, if you're in a higher tax bracket, you're gonna make your money, and if your income is such that 50% is being taken away, you're quite comfortable.

>>43095643

That's totally untrue though. Family bonds have a stronger genetic basis. You are instinctively driven to care for individuals you think are genetically related to you. This effect occurs in most, possibly all, communal animals

>>43095860

The effect is cumulative over larger populations.

>>43095860
what about adopted kids, anon. people love adopted kids just as much.

>>43095848
I'm in a low tax bracket, paying more taxes by VAT than anything else. The things I rely on are my house, which is rented from a landlord, gas, electricity, telecoms and water which are run by private companies, and food. I don't get out much and work for a shitty private company. I've never felt that the government was making my life easier and the ways it benefits me are mainly pension, police department, and fire services. My education was shit. Is the nation's wellbeing helping me?

>>43095907

I'm sure your parent's weren't lying to you anon.

>>43095929
You need Locke.

>>43095907

Nope. By his logic, genetics are all that matters. Sorry, Billy, but your adoptive parents never loved you as much as they did their biological daughter, and every time they said they loved you both just the same was a lie.

>>43095690
>it's better for the nation as a whole
Yeah, no. This nation's so fucked up that the money that I put in is absolutely nothing. The government is so corrupt and inefficient most of it gets lost in exchange anyways. Remember, I'm a doctor. I know EXACTLY how fucked up Medicare and Medicaid are, as well as all the good the various regulations that they've created are. Do you know why prices are so high for so many medications? Because patent protections start while the drug is being researched. Five years later, it might finally be approved for use. At this point, the companies only have a few years left on their patents, so have to maximize profit before it goes generic. Further, nothing can really be done. You know one thing that's actually been in short supply for years now? Saline. Simple saline. They simply make it impossible to make the facilities to make more. Not to mention the literal racket that is insurance.

So in short, before you go taking my money, make sure you maximize its use first. That would overall make the taxes I do pay go far further, meaning I won't have to pay so much in taxes. I'd actually like to USE my money. Further still, even with my tax money, the government is shit about spending it.

>>43095763
>>43095798
>>43095848
Try saying that when you are actually there. It's nice to take such a moral look at things, but the reality is quite different.

>>43095454
Taxes is how you pay for your right (or the privilege, I suppose, since you're paying for it,) to benefit off your society. I didn't think it was that complex. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble with it.
TANSTAAFL, chummer.

>>43095929
This tbh. I make $13/hour full time and 25% of it goes to the state while I have to skip meals and can't afford to go to the doctor. How is the state helping me?

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>>43086714
>my actual face when

>>43095956

Genes matter. You wouldn't happen to have a few extra to spare would you?

>>43095976
Then why can't I pay lower taxes? Why am I forced to pay such a high percent of my income? Is that fair?

>>43095982
Oh, and I forgot to mention, I have to pay $350/month in student loans because the government decided to "help" everyone afford college.

>>43095974
What successful alternative should we be basing our system off of? This is an honest question, I'm not one of the people you're even responding to.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

>>43095982
What do you do?

>>43096048
But this is a republic, not a democracy.

Yes, it's a relevant distinction.

>>43096065
I find the difference to be insignificant. One way or another, handing power over to the masses, whether directly or by representation, to still be a godawful system that only works by virtue of being better than anything else available.

Up yours you Imperialist American Pig.

>>43085591
They suffered from bouts of hyperinflation and bad weather

>>43096000
Are we talking fair in some universal, objective sense? Because I think that will get us no further than it's gotten various ethicists over the past few millenia.
Or are we talking fair in a legal sense? In which case the answer seems to clearly be, not only "Yes" but "Yes, and to do otherwise would be illegal."

You have profited greatly from your society; therefore, you can afford to pay back a greater amount.

>>43094924
>The Roman Empire is generally famous as the ancient melting pot empire
true,they even had chimpouts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(410)

>>43096063
Long story short: IT.

Long story long: I have a degree in IT Security and four years' experience working with my university's IT security team as a student (which includes implementing mission critical systems, developing web apps for internal use, being liaison for multimillion dollar industry leading companies, etc.). The catch is I live in a 5K town and commute to a 25K "city" where my college is, where I do contract work. There are no jobs around here so they have me by the balls, and state budget issues mean there's a hiring freeze on full timers.

I am moving to a big city next year, but I gotta eat till then.

>>43096153
Not him, but what do you think of expats or people who move abroad to work, then? They are often no longer doing anything for the economy of the society they were raised in. Are they then in the wrong? Can they transfer that 'obligation' to the new society?

>>43096045
You've got to take a literal chainsaw to government inefficiencies and corruption. No more of these major thoroughfares cut down to one lane both ways for 6 months, with workers only out maybe once every 4 days. Cut workers that have no place.

If you're going to nationalize the health care system, do it properly. As it is now only benefits insurance companies and no one else. Not the patients and not the doctors.

Cut down on the bullshit rules and regulations. Yes, the intent is good, but the execution is absolutely piss poor.

Create an actual balanced budget and reduce the debt. Currently we spend 7% of our national budget on interest payments. If we eliminated that, guess what, you could cut taxes by at least 5%.

What else... Create two investigative bodies to look into officials for corruption.

That's about all I care to think of right now, I'm running a bit of a fever.

>>43096000
Because your income has enabled you to afford to do that and still maintain a high standard of living.

>>43096192
They're actually expected to pay taxes on the wages earned abroad. Potential estate taxation problems are the reason Terry Gilliam renounced his American citizenship.

>>43096161
You're also blaming the gubmint for loans you CHOSE to take. If you can't afford college don't go.

>>43096208
>If we eliminated that
To be brief, there are very good reasons why we keep the debt we do and our debt is very useful not just for us but for many nations around the world. A lot of those interest payments go right back to the economy of the country of origin, too.

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>>43096237

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>>43086924
>>43086938
>tfw you will never save the entire western world by impregnating your new wife
>tfw you will never have great legends told about the sex you had, thousands of years in the future
>tfw you will never have an imperial cult form around your union, reenacting that night you and your wife fucked the shit out each other as if it was the most holy, important moment in all of history
>tfw the entire destiny of human civilization will never rest literally within your balls
>you will never have such a diamond-hard boner for mankind's fate
i think we may have invented a new fetish here, anons, one impossible to attain

>>43096223
That's pretty crazy. In my country you are only expected to pay taxes on your wages if your domicile is in your home country.

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>>43084306
>what causes the end of Empires?
The birth of Empires

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsaieZt5vjk

>>43095670
so human nature then?

>>43096261

Dude, this kind of stuff happened all the time. Princesses were bargaining chips to keep wars from happening, so the only blood that would be spilled would be hers on her wedding night.

If you want an example of a union that *actually worked*, look at the relationship between the Rhos (The Rus) and Byzantine Empire, where the Rus straight up converted to Orthodoxy and became reliable friends to the Empire after the Emperor at the time legitimized their existence with a couple Imperial Princesses.

>>43096192
Moving from the society you were raised in kinda sucks for the society, (see things like brain drain,) but hell, you didn't choose to be born there.

If someone decides their society is asking more of them than they're receiving, they're entitled to vote with their dollar and feet, namely, move to one they think is more reasonable in the exchange rates.

>>43096153
>You have profited greatly from your society; therefore, you can afford to pay back a greater amount.
My society, as you call it, has done very little to help me. Once again, the only government money I get is from public goods and services. The vast majority of my taxes go to nothing of the sort. I've taken less than most others and yet I'm expected to give more.

>>43096241
I know exactly why debt is a good idea. I know that eliminating it has historically had bad results, hence why I said the 5% number.I also know that the amount of debt we have now goes FAR beyond the amount of debt that is needed, to the extent where a large portion of the budget goes to merely paying interest on an ever growing debt. Over time, more and more of the budget will be tied up in this, for no benefit.

>>43096213
Sure, it does. Does that make it fair? Does success mean that I should be treated more harshly?

>>43084306

What will be the next Empire to fall within the next 100 years or so?

>>43096208
That's sort of funny because the people hardest hit by high national debt are the lowest earners. People in high tax brackets have a lot less to fear from the current situation.

>>43096311
still turned on by the idea of saving the world by boning
shit would be hot

>>43096386
EU. If that counts.

>>43096386
China.

>>43096457

And what will cause the end of the European experiment? Europe's been tearing itself apart in wars since Medieval times, but the last 60 years or so have been an unparalleled time of peace there. Are we going to see another 17th or 18th century there?

>>43096331
>My society, as you call it, has done very little to help me. Once again, the only government money I get is from public goods and services. The vast majority of my taxes go to nothing of the sort. I've taken less than most others and yet I'm expected to give more.
>i'm a self made man who never took no dollar from no government! Yeah!
Look, buddy. It's not just the money. It's a lot more than just the money.
A lot.
Police. Infrastructure. Regulation. You know how the water that comes out of your tap is potable? That's part of what you're paying for. You know how your local police are ostensibly there to protect you? That's part of what you're paying for. Maybe you have a streetsweeper who comes by once a week and cleans the street? Or maybe you don't. Either way, that's what you're paying for.
Are your Fire departments privately owned? No? You're paying for those too. If you buy drugs (pharmaceutical kind) and the drugs don't do what they claim to, you got cheated; can you expect protection or recompense? That's what you're paying for. Do you expect them to have hazardous, or even lethal, side effects that you weren't warned about? No? That's part of the regulation and order your society has elected to create. The fact that you are living in it means you are being subject to all those rules, protected by them, and served by them. If you don't think they are worth your money, try a different one.

But no, if you want to reduce it to "But muh dollas", be my guest.

>>43096386
Modern western civilization (Europe and Anglosphere), for many of the same reasons Rome fell.

>>43096468

China's not an Empire. Outside of the frontiers, it's almost all ethnic Chinese.

>>43096481
Mostly the fact that it's shown to be completely incompetent in times of crisis.

They can't do a thing about Russia and Putin aggression, the debt problem is still there and in all likelihood will get worse because they keep kicking the can down the road than dealing with it and the refugee crisis has been handled in a disastrous manner.

I'm not saying there will be outright war and destruction but I'd expect the European experiment to eventually fail with a whimper.

>>43086134

Is that Four Tank Men and a Dog?

>>43084306
The biggest factor is the inability to adapt to changing circumstances.

but by and large, the biggest, largest factor, is the breaking down of the social contract at various levels.

When the empire stops being able to do what a government is supposed to do (AKA: maintain stability and allow people to get on with their lives on a massive scale), then bits and pieces of it stop giving even lip service to that empire, and instead move to isolate themselves and create their own system of working without fear of reprisals, or even despite fears of reprisals.

The social contract, the agreement that basically amounts to "We will give you stability with X conditions, you will give us obedience with Y conditions" is the underpinning of all governments, at any level, and when it starts to break down, any form of governance, either defacto or dejure, will also break down.

>>43096502
And yet the nation still covers areas speaking four or five different language families (not even just individual languages) in majority. Just being ethnic Han doesn't give them absolute solidarity, the Chinese social situation is ridiculously complicated.

>>43091415
>Remember when racism on 4chan was just a joke?
No, I've been here since 2008

>>43096583
It's multiethnic but not as multicultural.

>>43096628
Even with the changes brought about by the Qin, that's not entirely true.

Fuck, it's not even REALLY true for places like the US? Or are you going to say that the North East, California, and the Bible Belt all have the same culture? Similar cultures, but not the same.

And China's even more diverse than that.

>>43096628
I would honestly argue the opposite. There's more difference between Hong Kong (mostly Han) and Beijing (also mostly Han), and from the Han cities to the Han rural areas, than there are between the different ethnic groups living near one another. And for some reason they have a ridiculous linguistic diversity even between ethnically similar people, because their culture diverges more than their genetics (I guess, I'm not really sure why).

>>43096492
Everything you just mentioned was a public good and/or service. I specifically mentioned those as the exception. As expected, you don't actually understand but try to attack me anyways because I have the gall to want more of my money. Would you like to continue to shame me about my greed?

>>43096492
all those things combined is a tiny tiny sliver of what taxes pay for. compare that sliver with the wedges for pensions, military, and either federal or state welfare schemes. that sliver is also smaller than the interest payments sliver of the whole.

>>43096542
>I'm not saying there will be outright war and destruction but I'd expect the European experiment to eventually fail with a whimper.

And what then? What happens after the headlines open with a big "THE EU HAS FAILED?"

Do things go back to nation-states? Does the flood of migrants continue?

>>43096709
>I specifically mentioned those as the exception.
>So aside from the aquaducts, the schools, the roads, the hospitals, the wine, the public order, the sanitation, the public baths, and the safety, what have the Romans ever done for us?!

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>there are people who actually wished Rome didn't collapse

How are you fuckers this retarded?

>>43096798
simple, what happened after the western roman empire officially ended

>>43096492
A lot of that isn't funded by the federal income tax that he has to pay. A lot of that is funded by the state income tax and state sales taxes he has to pay, and the highest that accounts for is 5.75%.

The problem is that 50% of American citizens don't pay any federal taxes at all. 28% of working age Americans are unemployed, while the remainder don't make enough to be charged federal taxes.

Meanwhile, rather than trying to create opportunities for jobs for these 93 million unemployed Americans, the government decides to tax our most successful citizens in order to provide bread and circuses to our poorest. That's what the American economic system has come down to. People like >>43086967 are being stripped of their wealth while they work, because they work, and when they die in order to fund an increasingly cash-strapped and morally bankrupt welfare system that is lurching its way to insolvency and dragging the American empire down with it. This has nothing to do with "paying your fair share;" it is in no way fair for a government to claim the majority of a person's wealth and labor for itself. Saying that it is only means that you, as an individual human being, are a slave to the State and should devote yourself to that State, because only that State creates your worth.

>>43096798
Yes, it goes right back to a bunch of nation states that are somewhat ambivalent to one another. They'll still be friendly but with disagreements etc.

Of course the Refugees keep coming. Even if the EU collapses, it's still the best place for the refugees to head to.

>>43096798

It would probably be the 19th Century all over again. No-one wants war, but the states would compete more then they currently do.

>>43096834
>what happened after the western roman empire officially ended

The newcomers move in, declare themselves the successors of the old empire, and start setting up shop while adopting a cheap imitation of the local customs?

Gee, that sounds like such a good future.

>>43096702
My grandmother can speak 4 languages because of the upheavals in the Chinese empire. Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, and some obscure local tongue that was only ever spoken in her tiny little farming village. My mother can speak Cantonese, Mandarin, and a little bit of my grandmother's mother tongue.

Geography and trade routes, combined with the governmental upheavals of the past century, are the main determining factors in the differences between China's populations.

Question for the Americans, could you list your Tax brackets etc.

>>43096846
>Of course the Refugees keep coming. Even if the EU collapses, it's still the best place for the refugees to head to.

To make matters worse (depending on who you ask), the nationalistic trends of these nation-states would mean nobody *really* wants to handle the refugee crisis, and since there isn't a legal way to bully nations into harboring them anymore it will become something reminiscent of the United States and Mexico, only with more nations encouraging the hordes to move further north.

Shame though, it's always a pain to see native ethnic groups become a minority in their own country.

>>43096835
Please explain what exactly it is about 51% that makes it immoral. How is it more immoral than 50%? Than 49%?

If >>43086967 really is being stripped of his wealth, why doesn't he work for less? That'd be only rational, right? Drop himself down a tax bracket, and everything is hunky-dory?
Or, could it be, that he makes more in this higher tax bracket than he did when earning in the one below it?

You have a lot of nice emotional rhetoric though, definitely speech-writer material.

>>43095690
Just so you know, people generally stop trying to make money once you take more than half of it away in taxes. Already half is pretty harsh from an incentive perspective, that's why the anon you're arguing is so upset about it. It really does hurt on a psychological level to have to give away half your income, which tends to negatively impact citizen productivity and desire to innovate. So as a general principle you don't want the marginal tax rate to exceed 45%. The big issue in the United States is that capital gains, which is how the really rich people make money, are taxed at like 15-20%. So anon who makes 700k a year from his medical practice is stuck giving away half his income, while people who make ten times that much money have less than half the tax rate. The system is seriously fucked.

>>43096920

is stealing 50 $ more immoral than stealing 1 $?

>>43096920
If it's so hard to grasp, perhaps you would never understand why taking 51% of a man's earnings is morally worse than taking 49%.

But here it is anyway. If you take the majority of a person's earnings, then you are making that person subservient to you. They become your slave. If they retain the majority of their earnings, they are still a free man, if only barely.

>>43097104
Immorality is binary. It is or it isn't. Therefore, no, stealing $5,000 is no less immoral than stealing a baby's Ring-Pop™.

>>43097237
>If you take the majority of a person's earnings, then you are making that person subservient to you

How. That's a complete non-sequitur.

>>43097277

agreed

>>43097237
So why doesn't our poor, enslaved, highest-tax-bracket soul just stop charging so much, stop earning so much? It would be very easy for them to regain their freedom- anything from a pay cut to just quitting.

>>43097309
Do you not understand the labor theory of value?

>>43097389
That's just as much a form of enslavement as taking 51% of their earnings. You force them to take economic choices that hurt them.

>>43097443
You know, you could have beaten up that guy you passed on the sidewalk today and stolen his wallet.
Not doing so was an economic choice that left you financially worse off than if you had done it. You could even say it hurt you.

>>43097509

nobody forced him not to mug the guy

>>43097509
No, because mugging someone is an absolutely worse economic choice because it leads to jail, prison time, or death if the guy you rob has a gun.

>>43097514
The law, the same institution that forces him to pay taxes, did.

>>43097424
So you're less free making 100k+ after 51% taxes than someone making less than you after 49% taxes?

What part of the theory calls high taxation a form of slavery?

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If you want to understand why Empires fall, first you have to understand what holds them together.

>>43097532
Ain't gonna do it with with that copy-pasta

>>43095102

Because without a society you would never have earned your way to where you are.

How many people as smart and hard-working as you are there in Somalia? We can assume in the thousands.

How many of them made it?

Not fucking many.

>>43095641

No matter how much you were taxed you would make this argument.

If you were taxed 20% you'd be happy with ten, you'd tolerate 15, and be angry at 20.

If you were taxed at 80 you'd be happy with 50, tolerate 65, and angry at 80.

If they changed the tax laws now and cut your tax by 20% you'd have a year of novelty where you are very happy, a year of fading pleasure, then a year or two of grudging acceptance that it'll do, then you'd be right back here again with new numbers.

The very same thing if your taxation stayed the same but the services and benefits of the government to you became much more noticeable.

When pressed to it, or tested, nobody in the world is angry at the specific percent of tax they pay. People just want to pay less or not taxes, but can't make that rgument verbatim because it inevitably goes to places they think are dumb. It's window dressing to make your argument palatable to you.

>>43095763

Okay. Go live in Somalia then.

>>43097572
Why? That's a pretty accurate representation of what happened.

>>43097237
>They become your slave
It's like when radfems think ogling a digital woman is rape. Displeased about your tax bracket? You're enslaved! Nevermind that you've more economic and social freedom than the majority of people in the world, including actual slaves, you gotta get angry about your fantasy subservience.

>>43097532

POO

>>43084306
Lack of national unity.

German came together under a system of social welfare where every area depending and supported every other area.

>>43097698
According to someone who neither understood the British Empire nor India, sure.

>>43097237

If you work for salary, then you are earning an amount of money by your labour.

An ordinary business will take away most of that. Somewhere between 50% and 95% of the amount of money your labour earned is taken by your boss as representative of the business in exchange for letting you work.

Of that amount you earned, somewhere between 0% and 30% go to the government in income tax, in exchange for which you get such a wealth of things it's hard to cover, but you can look to, say, Somalia for the alternative.

Who is the 'slaver', again?

>>43097424
What does government taxation have to do with LTV?

>>43097737
this tbh fam

>>43097595
>Because without a society you would never have earned your way to where you are.
I see you're just repeating the same old argument. I ALREADY PAY MY "DEBTS" TO SOCIETY. I did at 40%. I did at 30%. I even did when I was a 12 year old kid doing paper routes. I did that when I was working in the power plant to pay for college. I'm continuing to do so now. Tell me. Why is it fair that they're taking so much of my money? How about they do the same to you? Would you be fucking happy if half your income that you SLAVED for was just fucking gone? Is that fair? You have yet to answer that simple question, you just keep saying the tired "Oh, you're so greedy, you have to pay your debts to society". Well fuck you. You have not answered that question in the slightest. At this point I have to think you're absolutely incapable of thinking for yourself.

>>43097661
You're right, I would be upset if I had always been taxed at 40%. That's a huge percentage of my income. And guess what? I HAVE been taxed at that rate. Unlike you, I've clawed my way up the system. I've been upset at that. But here's the thing. 40% is only 40%. I've still got 60% to use for myelf. 50% is something else entirely. That's HALF my income. That's a huge milestone, and I think if you looked at it from my point of view, you'd understand why I'm so upset about it. But no, you can't. You've never even dreamed of being taxed so heavily. You are unable to see things from both perspectives.

>The very same thing if your taxation stayed the same but the services and benefits of the government to you became much more noticeable.
That's likely. However, it'd be a whole lot better than when at least a quarter of my income is pissed away.

>>43097889
>Why is it fair that they're taking so much of my money?
Because you have done so well off of society.

>>43097889
>Why is it fair that they're taking so much of my money?
Because out of many others, you've benefited the most from the society that let you work your way to prosperity.

>>43097914
>>43097928
So because out of thousands of others I was able to claw my way up, I should pay for everyone else, is that it?

>>43097984
"It is therefore deemed proper that, in meeting the extraordinary expenditures for the Army and Navy, our revenue system should be more evenly and equitably balanced and a larger portion of our necessary revenues collected from the incomes and inheritances of those deriving the most benefit and protection from the Government."

In short, you got, and keep getting, what you pay for.

>muh hard work
Talk that shit in a failed state with roving warlords and no financial system and then bitch.

The universal flat tax is the only fair system.

>>43097984
Society gave you the opportunities and the options to better yourself. These worked out very well for you. As a result, you are helping to provide those same options and opportunities to others.

You clawed your way up because society gave you all those handholds and a nice belaying line. Now you're expected to return the favor. Pay back the investment. Reciprocate. Pay your fair share.

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Regular corruption isn't always that bad. The typical official needing a small kickback isn't a death knell because it can be cleaned up with a little regular reform and house cleaning. You can actually do good and make a difference over time.

But a landed aristocracy is a problem. A class of people immune to consequence will act exactly like you'd expect. A strong estate tax ensures the people in the higher classes have to at least be somewhat competent new blood, or at least lack colossal Hapsburg style incompetence. Dynasties kill empires.

Except for China. They managed to establish interdependence and relative unity. Sure, when it went wrong the civil wars tended to go really, really wrong, but they went through a lot of terrible ones and came out unified on the other end eventually because of the relatively meritocratic bureaucracy.

>>43096237

Sure. It's not like NOT going to college makes you qualified for anything more then a life of flipping burgers.

>>43097595
The part that says the sweat of a man's brow belongs to him and not to others. Majority ownership, natch.

>>43098067

College boy detected.

Work a trade, farm, drive trucks, join the military, etc. There are lots and lots of options for people who don't choose to attend college.

My step father never went to college, but he worked on a dairy farm so long he learned about nutrition for cows, and now makes bank as a dairy nutritionist and consultant. Not to mention he owns 80 acres and a tree farm, which he works in his free time.

He's done quite well for himself without college.

Let's say you're playing an RPG. Half of your action points for ever combat turn vanish because they get "taxed" by the DM in order to provide action points for NPCs. Is that fair?

>>43098118
He wasn't being sarcastic.

>It's NOT like
>Not going to college makes you qualified for anything more than flipping burgers.

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>>43097771

>>43098125
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.

An RPG is a game, you see - and more often than not a form of escapism. To compare a GM-induced game mechanic to a real-life system is less apples and oranges and more apples and orangutans.

>>43098034
And? I paid a far larger share than most when I paid 30% of my income in taxes. Why 50%? Why must I be so heavily burdened? Is that fair?
>Talk that shit in a failed state with roving warlords and no financial system and then bitch.
Tell me then, what is your excuse for not having clawed your way to the top? You live in the same society that I do, and yet you aren't as wealthy as I am. You were afforded at least the same amount of opportunities I was. Probably more, there are far more benefits now than when I was young. I came from nothing. I mean nothing. I got to where I am because I paid my way through college, did not get burdened through debts, and chose a field in which I excelled. You have that same opportunity.
>>43098044
I AM returning the favor. That is not my issue. My issue is that I am being taxed at a far higher rate than is reasonable. I am paying MORE than my fair share. THAT is my issue. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

>>43098142
But isn't the GM like a government? A "impartial" party which dictates what you can and cannot do? That both gives and takes away? And what does escapism matter to this example?

>>43098125
If you're much higher leveled, enjoyed the fruits of the DM's charity from mercy rolls and fudging numbers to treasure and powerful equipment, sure. Especially if those NPCs are part of the same order as the player that needs action points to prosper.

>>43098164
Well, the GM is less of a government and more of a god, as he or she, in the end, dictates the nature, properties, and abilities of everyone and everything that isn't a PC, and even has a great degree of control over what the PCs themselves can or cannot do. He or she controls how long a day is, how often people sleep, how civilization at large reacts to crises, and even how the world itself was created - or if using an established setting, acts as something of a Demiurge.

So unless tax rates are a law of physics...

>>43098151
>I AM returning the favor.
Yes. In the form of the high taxes you pay.
>That is not my issue.
It sure seems to be. After all,
>My issue is that I am being taxed at a far higher rate than is reasonable. I am paying MORE than my fair share.
Nope. No, you aren't. As you continue to fail to get. :(

>THAT is my issue. Is that simple enough for you to understand?
It makes very clear where the disconnnect is, yes.

>>43098196
>Only two things in life are certain:
>Death, and
>Taxes

Taxes are a socioeconomic law.

>>43095641
>The only money I ever received from the government was in the form of public goods and services. And Medicare/Medicaid
I bet those quality standards on goods, travel time improved from higher quality roads, legal guaranty of honesty from a company, standardization of currency, enforcement of law so you don't get shanked by someone who wants 100% of your stuff, ensuring that companies must offer you vital goods and not have the water company ignore you because they don't think they'd make enough money from selling it to you, sure haven't helped you a cent, have they?

The government gives you so many fucking benefits outside of direct monetary hand outs.

>>43098151
>Tell me then, what is your excuse for not having clawed your way to the top?
And what makes you think I'm not content and successful in life?

Are you actually heavily burdened? Pay attention to the words you're actually saying here - are you unable to live your life well? Or, like everyone has been saying, is it all emotional bluster coming from a life of entitlement and self-aggrandizement?

>>43098209
>Nope. No, you aren't. As you continue to fail to get. :(
Mate. Look. You seem to think of 50% as a reasonable tax rate. Let me dissuade you of this notion. How pissed off would you be if your paycheck was cut in half?

If you believe income is earned and not leveraged, you don't understand capitalism and you're already on the way to becoming a red.

You sell labor. You leverage your position for maximum gain to yourself. Unions, for example, are among the most capitalistic devices you can be a part of. You can leverage more effectively to maximize profit. Got a shitty union? Be an entrepreneur and start your own!

Markets aren't fair. They aren't moral. They aren't immoral. They are amoral, and that's what makes them so effective.

>>43098151
How can you possibly be at the top of society and pay that percentage in taxes? The top 1% pays between 19-28% at best.

Also, how did you both pay your way through college and not be burdened through debts? Did you mean to say you weren't burdened with excessive debt?

>>43096628
Holy shit are you serious? China has a shitload of cultures and ethnicities within it's borders.

>>43098264
How big is the remainder of my paycheck?

>>43098240
I'm well aware, thank you very much. And lord no. The roads are anything but high quality. Would you believe it, but they decided to shut down all three access routes out of the city at one time. Bringing them down to a lane a piece. For MONTHS. With workers only showing up on the roads maybe once every 5 days. Tell me that my money is being well spent. Tell me that the government really needs half my income.

>>43098212
I'd start going into whether or not "thov shalt pay taxes" was dictate to Adam in Genesis, but knowing how much of the Bible is metaphor (and how much didn't make it into canon), I wouldn't be surprised if something to that effect was actually in there.

tl;dr, you got me there.

>>43098151
Apparently no matter how poor you were born or how rich you become, you can't breed or buy yourself a sense of humility and duty.

>>43098281
Enough to live comfortably, but gets rather tight when you have to provide for a dozen other people. Including buying their homes. Paying for college. Paying for any expenses that the parents might have.

>>43098296
I don't know your particular city, but as a foreigner that's travelled to America, your roads made me feel like a bumfuck hobbit that was visiting Rivendale for the first time. American roads are like driving on a cloud.

I mean, fuck your government, but at the same time, please conquer us and build roads.

>>43098297
I'm pretty sure there's plenty of stuff in the bible about helping thy neighbor or, if one were cynical, about how people are greedy fuckers.

Other than that, there's the render unto Caesar bit and that'll do really.

>>43098090
Working for the sweat of your brow isn't a right or reward, it's mankind's punishment and fall from grace.

>>43098323
I probably wish I had more, but it sounds like life isn't too bad. Chores will always be annoying.

If I work hard to improve myself or my place in life, is my income likely to increase?

>>43097532
I've had to navigate streets that intersect themselves and I've still never been as lost as I am right now in that metaphor

>>43098359
Really? I usually expect the worst from /pol/, but I thought that was a pretty solid and cohesive explanation.

>>43098267
>How can you possibly be at the top of society and pay that percentage in taxes? The top 1% pays between 19-28% at best.
We're talking total taxes. Not income tax. All the taxes.

>Also, how did you both pay your way through college and not be burdened through debts? Did you mean to say you weren't burdened with excessive debt?
Because I've been working since I was 12 and saved my money because I knew I wouldn't get a dime from my parents. I worked the summers, and took an additional year and a half off to work in a power plant. Further, this was 40 years ago.

>>43098311
Look. When Katrina hit, my wife and I ended up organizing our church's response. This isn't a small church, but one of several thousand people. Why did we do this? Because we wanted to help. We were the first people to call, and probably the best choice, as my wife was the president of the local branch of a major non-for-profit. I regularly go on mission trips to help those disadvantaged by natural disasters in Central America.

I've got a sense of civic duty and humility. I get that. I understand why taxes are so important, and why I must pay them. I understand that they help. But I also understand that I'm getting taxed out the wazoo, far beyond what's reasonable. And you say that I don't have a sense of civic duty because I'm upset about that? Are you out of your mind? Please, try to look at this from my perspective here.

>>43098377
It's just way off base. The kind of alien overlord society it laid out has like no similarity whatsoever with British India. I'm sure the sci-fi scenario might be plausible, but the Brits were nothing like the aliens in that story, nor were Indians anything like what the earthlings there.

>>43098450
>the Brits were nothing like the aliens in that story, nor were Indians anything like what the earthlings there

really, any justification?

>>43098429
>Further, this was 40 years ago.

Oh. Yeah. That makes sense. I've been working full time saving for a decade and I'm still going to have to take a small loan next year. Shit's insane.

>>43098429
>Please, try to look at this from my perspective here.
I am. And it's disheartening. Your charity and sense of duty doesn't extend to your country, but to people around you who can provide you positive feedback for your efforts.

>>43098344
>Chores will always be annoying.
Are you still a kid?
>If I work hard to improve myself or my place in life, is my income likely to increase?
In general or from the hypothetical? In general, yes, of course. In the hypothetical statement, this is the end result of years of work. I'm 60 years old, and hoping to retire soon. I've still got a little girl who just became a freshmen in high school, so I'll probably have to keep working for another decade while she does that and college, but after that, hopefully I can finally retire.

>Baby Boomers growing up under the New Deal and G.I. Bill complaining about welfare.

>>43098429
Out of curiosity, is there any income level in your opinion that deserves to be taxed at 50%?

>>43098496
So I gotta ask, why are you here on 4chan? No disrespect but the average demographic here isn't retirement age or near it.

Oh and how the heck did you find this website in the first place?

As a Christian, I believe viewing wealth as a karmic reward system to be idolatry. It's also a line of thought that ironically leads to communism.

>>43091415
Remember when racism on 4chan was just a joke?

No, been here since 2004.

>>43098499
I don't think anyone should need to be taxed at 50% of their income, and don't you dare get me started on estate tax. But, if I HAD to make a statement, $3.5 million and up.