look into ars magica (especially realms of power: the divine) and dogs in the vineyard

>>42075588
V:tR playing as the LS in Rome

>>42075588
RHW

>>42076276
THC

>>42075588
>HUR HUR MY PAGAN GOD HAS A HAMMER AND YOURS WAS NAILED TO A PIECE OF WOOD ANY QUESTION
>Yeah, where were they when Charlemagne burnt down the World Tree

Dogs in the Vineyard

>>42076336
Someone's assblasted

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>>42076622
Someone can't tell what other people are saying.

>>42076622
Well one of those actually happened
And you won't see Irminsul anymore

>>42075588

The Devil, being a natural magician, may perform many acts in ways above our knowledge, though not transcending our natural power, for he is but a mere creation of the almighty, and so could never transcend His stature to work genuine miracles.

The source of understanding of the highest power had been entrusted by the Creator into mortal hands—the power of magic. We posses many scrolls containing descriptions of magic formulas and techniques required for their reproduction and for the understanding and controlling of mystical powers from which individual spells are formed.

The question is though, wherefrom comes the substance of magic which is in fact an overall term for controlling mystical powers by the means of magic formulas. Wherefrom comes the ability to control powers wielded by both God and Satan? The answer to these questions is rather complicated and is related to the theology as such. From the viewpoint of a faithful believer there can't be any doubt that it's a divine gift bestowed upon the Herd of our Lord who endows certain individuals with the means of glimpsing behind the veil cloaking mystical powers. That is, magic can't be controlled just by anyone, but only the chosen ones can do that.

This interpretation can't be challenged even by the fact that mystical powers can also be controlled by those who were lead astray from God's herd. That is because no man is born a sinner—but rather becomes one during his life as a consequence of his deeds. God Almighty grants the gift of magic powers to the souls yet unstained by the dirt of life. The manner in which they handle their gift is mostly up to them to decide then. Nevertheless the times in which they were born and the people surrounding them play an important part in the process as well.

>>42077024

Nevertheless it must be stated that the gift of wielding magic powers alone is not enough to cast spells. Spells must be learnt first, or better to say, mastered. This is done by the use of a magic formula which evokes powers that in fact perform the given spell. Magic formulas can be discovered by one's invention but only those of true genius are able to do that. The usual practice is to pass magic formulas written in scrolls containing a detailed description of all the techniques and procedures required for casting a spell.

Nevertheless a spell can be mastered only if the reader has sufficient mental and intellectual capabilities, otherwise the scroll is of no use as the reader can't make the formula work:

E.g. Healing Touch: According to the Holy Scripture the First Prophet had the power to heal using only the strength of his will. This way he was able to heal many deadly wounds inflicted to afaithful by a pagan living in a sin without the sacrament of baptism. This power was attributed to divine mercy which the First Prophet was able to summon through the power of his strong faith. This principle was used by the spiritual thinkers who developeddivine magic and led to the creation of a magical formula which works on the sameprinciple, that is to heal inflicted wounds by summoning healing powers.

Reflect Wounds: In Jehrom's and Thumiel's story of the Holy Scripture a divine intervention occured at the moment when faithful Jehrom was to be killed by his pagan brother Thumiel. Owing to the divine will Jehrom's fatal wound was transferred to Thumiel, killing him instantly while Jehrom was left without a scratch. This story of divine mercy was an inspiration to the spiritual thinkers who were discovering the secrets of divine magic and they managed to find a magical formula which summons divine powers to protect the target of the spell by transferring his wounds to the one who inflicted them.

>>42077036

Divine mercy is fundamental for the divine magic because it represents basic metaphysical substrate this kind of magic is based on. It has all kinds of various manifestations and so there are many magical formulas of divine magic which turn to it.

Holy Ground: A place sanctified according to the rite of the Holy Mother Church offers the faithful much better protection from all evil than any wall or palisade, for the ground sprinkled with the Holy water and saturated with an eternal spiritual imprint of the religious ritual repels all evil and lessens the power of the devil's servants. This well known fact led the spiritual thinkers to the examination of what was happening during the process of sanctifying a place which brought marvellous knowledge that was then used for the creation of a magical formula that in a single moment simulates the whole ritual of sanctifying the ground. Not even Holy water is needed because it can be compensated for by the power of concentrated and multiplied true faith.

Permitted Magical Books

Theologia Arcanea // book of divine magic.

The book named Theologia Arcanea was written by one of the most important thinkers of the faithful world—by Saint Efarius. It deals with the relationship between the divine power and all of creation. After indispensable initial evidence of the existence of God and after a metaphysical treatise follows an analysis of the divine power and of mystical experience which is directly used to live through the omnipresent divine impeccability of the Holy Ghost.

The book is the cornerstone for the understanding of the mystical powerscontained within the rites and symbols of the Holy Mother Church. The text is considered to be almost as important as the Scriptures themselves even though it was not written by any of the prophets. An understanding of the principles described in the book is very difficult, the one who manages to grasp the secrets of divine magic though will become a stout supporter of the divine order.

Nevertheless there are some who criticize an uncontrolled spreading of this work as it could allow heretics to examine the depths of the manifestations of the divine power in connection with the creation and use such a knowledge not to protect the divine order but to threaten it!

Directorium Inquisitorum // book of inquisitorial magic

Directorium Inquisitorum, also known as the Golden Tome of the Defender of the Faith, was written between the years 241 and 250 by Ruphiel, a monk of Saint Marchiel Monastery in the Moonshine Mountains, who was one of the followers of the heritage of Saint Orthenius. Ruphiel spent his life studying the deeds of Saint Orthenius and in his last years he created a magnificent work dealing with the heresy of those times and especially with the means of fighting it.

The book has been considered to be a product of divine inspiration and became a fundamental cornerstone of the Inquisitorial office of the Papal Cathedra, wherefrom it spread to all other Churches of the faithful kingdoms of the Old World.

The book contains description of unclean witchcraft and unholy orgies. It also presents methods of revealing heretics who are in congress with Satan and are thus endowed with unbelievable resistance to torture and with the power to lie even when facing divine wrath. It's the most powerful tool the Holy Office can use to fight the heresy of our times!

Elenchós Tés Pseudonymú Gnóseós // book of pagan magic

In the old times when the young Faithful Church struggled with pagan cults one of the priests of the Lord named Arkinodos wrote Revelation of False Teachings, or Elenchós Tés Pseudonymú Gnóseós. The book contains not only detailed descriptions of Erebornian cultic rites, but also lists contradictions contained in them and also contradictions between those false pagan rites and the Holy Truth revealed by the Creator and written down by the prophets in the Holy Scriptures.

Later attempts of certain renegade priests to perform pagan rites based on the book led to the banning of the work. It was considered to be necessary to prevent further growth of idolatrous insurgent movements aiming at the disruption of divine order. Nevertheless it is certain that copies of the book are still to be found among heretics and are often used to attack all the pillars of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

That's why each and every Faithful Church must fight any manifestation of the teachings described in this forbidden book!

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>>42075588

World of Darkness.

Liber Lucifer Ordinis Novi // book of infernal magic

Infernal magic is the most condemnable aspect of the mystical powers man can wield. It was described in detail in a book named Liber Lucifer Ordinis Novi. Its author is not known, though the authorship is often credited to a leader of one of the demonic cults of the mid-ninth century.

The book contains instructions on how to perform the worst evils and atrocities. The author does not hesitate to encourage covert attacks at the Holy Mother Church through the abuse of human vices and through the summoning of infernal entities which he openly adores and worships.

This book is, due to its complexity, the most serious threat to the Kingdom of God on Earth and to the Holy Mother Church. And that is the reason the book was declared forbidden by the Holy Council at the moment it was discovered. Nevertheless due to the fact it was written by a heretic, it was not possible to completely prevent copying and spreading of the infernal tome. It is the most holy duty of the Papal Inquisition to find all the owners of the copies and to correct them!

>>42077024
>>42077036
>>42077057
>>42077075
>>42077098
>>42077147
>>42077164
Nobody is reading all this shit you faggot.

>>42077161

It took someone long enough.

/thread

>>42077161
But anon, when someone asks you to suggest a system, you're supposed to suggest a decent system.

>>42075588
WoD

>>42077292
It was literally the second reply.

>>42076336
>implying the kinslayer isn't being buttraped in Hell forever for his vile crimes

>>42075588
Burning Wheel

>>42077251
I read it. I thought it was pretty cool.

GURPS. Yrth (the world of Banestorm) doesn't have made-up religions, it uses real ones.

>>42076593
Seconded.

>>42077403
It doesn't count if you're the guy that wrote it.

I literally just finished a campaign with this premise. We used the old world-of-darkness hunter system, which wasn't great but worked well enough to serve our purposes.

Other options:

GURPS is always an option, especially for gritty stories with historical elements. I think it would be cool to use different power systems for christians and pagans; probably divine favour and some variant of path/book magic. As anon said, they have a fantasy setting with real world religions, which is pretty awesome.

Dogs in the Vineyard is very much set up for this. It barely needs any work at all to change settings.

Cthulhu Dark Ages is actually an awesome book and I'd totally recommend it if you can find it.

>>42077362
>Talking shit about big Charlie
>The man who was just a maytr-dom from being a Saint, and just got "Blessed"
>The man who freed the northern kingdoms of Spain from Moors (leading to the reconquista later) and turned the filthy Saxon animals to Christ
>In hell

>>42076336
Didn't he just destroy an Irminsul, one of many?

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>>42077024
>>42077036
>>42077057
>>42077075
>>42077098
>>42077147
>>42077164
Anon please go on, honestly this shit got me thinking on some sort of CoC Delta Green Faction whose worship could very well include Yahweh into the mythos.

>>42077164
>>42077147
>>42077098
>>42077075
>>42077057
>>42077036
>>42077024
I'm just gonna go ahead and steal all this...

On the day of Saint Orthenius in the year of our Lord 1221, by the authority of King and by the grace of God, I, Archbishop Laurencius, the patriarch of the Holy Mother Church of the nation of Ultherst, issue this Codex Inquisitorium.


Preamble

I. General Provisions

The Holy Inquisition is the body of the Holy Mother Church. It was summoned by our Merciful Lord to cleanse the Realm of heretics, misbelievers and apostates of faith who as enemies of God and King strive to destroy the Kingdom of God on Earth and to disrupt everything that was laboriously built.

For this self-sacrificing mission let the Holy Inquisition be given sole powers of investigation, trial and execution, including powers arising from capital rights and the rights of torture.

Let the powers of the Holy Inquisition apply to all the flock of God, Clergy and Laics, Nobility and Citizenry, knightly orders including.

Let anyone who stands against a legitimate judgment of the Holy Inquisition be considered an enemy of the Realm.


Organization of the Holy Office

II. Body and limbs of the Holy Office

The office of the Inquisitor General, who stands at the head of the Holy Inquisition and answers to God for fulfilling its holy mission, is hereby established.

The highest inquisitorial tribunal, with powers to investigate and judge persons enjoying exclusive competences and privileges, is hereby established.

In those dioceses, in which the occurrence of heresy has been proven through the inquisitorial trial, the inquisitorial curiae as independent inquisitorial regions are on the ordinance of the Inquisitor General hereby established. Let their territorial scopes coincide with territories of the appropriate dioceses.

In each inquisitorial curia the office of a curial inquisitor and the offices of inquisitorial judges, prosecutors and investigators are hereby established.

III. The Inquisitor General

The Inquisitor General, appointed by the patriarch of the Holy Mother Church, stands at the head of the Holy Inquisition. The office of the Inquisitor General ceases with death or charge of heresy.


IV. The Highest Inquisitorial Tribunal

The highest inquisitorial tribunal is composed of the Inquisitor General and three cardinals elected for life by the Episcopal convocation.

The highest inquisitorial tribunal decides on guilt by the majority of votes; in equality of votes the vote of the Inquisitor General rules.

Members of the highest inquisitorial tribunal can be removed only by the decision of other members of the highest inquisitorial tribunal based on the charge of heresy.


V. Curial Inquisitors

Curial inquisitors, appointed from a number of inquisitorial judges by the Inquisitor General and also removed by him, stand at the head of each inquisitorial curia.

Curial inquisitors are subject to the Inquisitor General alone and to no one else.


VI. Inquisitorial Judges

Inquisitorial judges are appointed from a number of investigators of the Holy Office by the curial inquisitor based on the needs of the appropriate inquisitorial curia. The curial inquisitor is also authorized to remove an inquisitorial judge from his office.

When performing their duties, the inquisitorial judges are subject to the curial inquisitor that appointed them.


VII. Inquisitorial Prosecutors

Only the inquisitorial investigator that has proven himself capable of performing in this office can be appointed the inquisitorial prosecutor. Inquisitorial prosecutors are appointed and removed by a judge of the Holy Office after the prior consent of a curial inquisitor.

When performing their duties, the inquisitorial prosecutors are subject to curial judges and the appropriate curial inquisitor.

VIII. Inquisitorial Investigators

Inquisitorial investigators are appointed from a number of clergies by a judge of the Holy Office based on his own decision or a recommendation of an inquisitorial prosecutor. Any priest who attests his high moral, ethical and spiritual values, as well as intellectual capabilities, can become an investigator.

When performing their duties, the inquisitorial investigators are subject to curial judges and curial prosecutors.


IX. Auxiliaries

Performance of inquisitorial powers can be, in justified cases, transferred by a curial inquisitor to auxiliaries—clergy or laics that thus become a prolonged arm of the Holy Inquisition and in terms of powers entrusted enjoy the same privileges and rights as appropriate inquisitors.


Powers of the Holy Office

X. Powers of the Holy Office

The Holy Office is given the utmost and unrestricted powers to prosecute, investigate and judge crimes against God and King.

Any defiance of the laws that aims to threaten the existence of true faith, the Holy Mother Church or the Realm and that uses or intends to use infernal powers to achieve this aim, is considered a crime against God and King. Any activity of anyone who supports or protects a heretic, whether it be with a word, gift, deed or by taking no action, is also considered a crime against God and King.

All imperial states, no one excluding, are subject to the powers of the Holy Office. Anyone claiming otherwise will be looked upon as an enemy of God and King.

When performing their holy mission, the investigating inquisitors are authorized to use an unlimited force against anyone who would try to interfere with their investigation.

XI. Powers of The Inquisitor General

The Inquisitor General presides over the highest inquisitorial tribunal, appoints and controls activities of curial inquisitors, establishes new inquisitorial curiae and exercises additional powers given to him by this Codex. For the purposes of an inquisitorial trial the Inquisitor General has the status of an inquisitorial judge.


XII. Powers of the Highest Inquisitorial Tribunal

The highest inquisitorial tribunal is given the power to bring prosecutions and judge those persons in the inquisitorial trial that enjoy sovereign rights and are not subject to common laws. Particularly the members of the ruling family, the First Knight, the Grand Master of the Brotherhood of the Righteous, the Archbishop of the Holy Mother Church, the Inquisitor General and the individual members of the highest inquisitorial tribunal are among these persons.


XIII. Powers of Curial Inquisitors

The curial inquisitor stands at the head of the inquisitorial curia and controls its working. For the purposes of a proper and absolute defeat of heresy in the given curia he is entitled to appoint inquisitorial judges and gives consent to the appointment of inquisitorial prosecutors.

For the purposes of an inquisitorial trial the curial inquisitor has the status of an inquisitorial judge.


XIV. Powers of inquisitorial judges

Each inquisitorial judge is given the power to decide on the guilt of the accused and to pass sentences in the inquisitorial trial.

He can also allocate a right to himself to conduct an investigation of the whole inquisitorial trial and to shed light on presumable and actual cases of heresy all by himself


XV. Powers of Inquisitorial Prosecutors

The inquisitorial prosecutor is called up to bring charges and prosecutions against heretics, misbelievers and apostates based on the evidence submitted by inquisitorial investigators. He can also reserve a right to himself to conduct the investigation and submit evidence all by himself.

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>>42077612
>you're samefagging
No, Sir, you are quite mistaken.

XVI. Powers of Inquisitorial Investigators

The inquisitorial investigator performs tasks given to him by inquisitorial judge or prosecutor, eventually by the curial inquisitor.

Each inquisitorial investigator is given the power to shed light on presumable and actual cases of heresy and to make suggestions to inquisitorial prosecutors to bring charges and prosecutions.


XVII. Delegation of Powers

In exceptional cases, the powers of curial inquisitors, inquisitorial judges or inquisitorial prosecutors can be delegated to inquisitors serving lower grade offices for the purposes of a proper performance of the mission of the Holy Office.

The following is mainly considered an exceptional case:

† if a curial inquisitor decides to send out a mission led by an authorized inquisitorial judge to the territory of a diocese, in which a suspicion of heresy is reported, he delegates a part of his own powers to him for the purposes of an inquisitorial trial within the scope of this mission;

† if a situation arises when a curial inquisitor is not able to perform his office or if he is suspended, the most senior inquisitor of the highest rank temporarily takes over his office;

† if a situation arises when no inquisitorial judge or inquisitorial prosecutor in the given curia or mission can perform his office, the most senior inquisitorial investigators temporarily take over their offices.

Inquisitorial Procedure

XVIII. Procedural Principles

Until a guilt is pronounced by a judgment of an inquisitorial court, it is impossible to regard one against whom the inquisitorial trial is proceeded as not being a heretic. The Holy Inquisition is obliged to implead all crimes against God and King it learns about. During the trial, the investigating inquisitors act ex officio so that the heresy is manifested as soon as possible.

The investigating inquisitors judge evidence according to their inner beliefs based on a thoughtful deliberation of all factors of the case—individually and as a whole.

In case of doubts, it is necessary to adhere to what is more certain. Heresy, disbelief and apostasy of faith are always more certain than innocence of persons against which the inquisitorial trial is proceeded. A single judge or court makes decisions in the inquisitorial trial, which is always closed except for delivery and execution of the judgment.

Persons charged with heresy are not entitled to defense, truth about their guilt or innocence will be revealed during the inquisitorial trial.

During decision making in the main trial the inquisitorial court can take account only of that evidence that was implemented during this trial.

One against whom the inquisitorial trial is proceeded must be at every stage of the trial enlightened about what he or she is in for in case he or she will not voluntarily confess to that which is laid to his or her charge.


XIX. Investigation

Every inquisitor is obliged to duly and timely investigate all suspicions of heresy he learns about.

Anonymous denunciation is allowed, but if this denunciation is consciously false, the informer will be given over to the secular power for punishment.

XX. Bringing a Charge

The inquisitorial trial starts with bringing a charge against a person suspected of heresy. The charge is brought by an inquisitorial prosecutor based on the evidence submitted by an inquisitorial investigator or gained with prosecutor's own investigation.

To charge a person suspected of heresy it is necessary to submit that amount of evidence corresponding to the standing from which that person comes. Therefore:

† to charge simple folk and vassals of the peasant, craft or citizen standing it is required to submit one convincing evidence;

† to charge clergy and members of lower nobility it is required to submit two pieces of convincing evidence;

† to charge prelates, members of higher nobility and persons enjoying sovereign rights it is required to submit three pieces of convincing evidence.


XXI. Imprisonment

Person charged with heresy must be put in jail without delay once

the charge has been conveyed so that he or she cannot try to demur against God's justice.

In case the person charged of heresy resists when being arrested, the inquisitor is authorized to use force to overcome this resistance.

The imprisonment is performed in cooperation with the local sheriff who is obliged to assist the inquisitor.


XXII. Legal Proceedings

Only that person that has been charged with heresy can be prosecuted.

The prosecution is allowed if a direct convincing evidence against the person charged of heresy exists.

Legal proceedings are instituted by an inquisitorial prosecutor at the subject-matter and locally relevant inquisitorial judge after another convincing evidence against the person charged of heresy has been obtained.

XXIII. Legal Proceedings Against Persons Enjoying Sovereign Rights

Only the highest inquisitorial tribunal is allowed to institute legal proceedings against persons enjoying sovereign rights who are not subject to common laws.

To institute such legal proceedings a consensus of major part of judges of the highest inquisitorial tribunal is required.


XXIV. Implementing Evidence

Any instruments with which the face of affairs can be uncovered can serve as evidence during the inquisitorial trial, especially:
† confession of the accused,
† questioning of witnesses,
† documents,
† examination of a place, object or person.

Confession gained through the use of torture is also considered a confession of an accused. Torture can be used against all persons charged of heresy except for children and pregnant women that are under God's protection.

For the purposes of the inquisitorial trial, all persons are obliged to tell the truth about everything they are asked about by the investigating inquisitor, as well, they are obliged to give over to the investigating inquisitor any object important for the inquisitorial trial, if it is in their possession.

A deliberate concealment of an object or information important for the inquisitorial trial shall be considered a crime against God and King.


XXV. Delivering Judgment

If the evidence implemented suggests that the accused has really committed an act of heresy, disbelief or apostasy, the inquisitorial judge is bound to deliver a judgment of conviction.

The judgment is final and irrevocable. It is delivered in open court.

XXVI. Staying the Inquisitorial Trial

If the curial inquisitor, inquisitorial judge or inquisitorial prosecutor finds out that the deed for which a charge has been brought against a person is not an act of heresy, disbelief or apostasy of faith, he decides on ceasing the investigation and releasing this person from jail.

If circumstances suggest that the person being investigated committed a crime against secular laws, that case is advanced to secular power.


XXVII. Punishment

The only punishment for a proven heresy, disbelief and apostasy of faith is the sentence of death by burning at the stake alive, for flames of justice alone have the power to purify the soul of the sentenced from a sinful body. However, if the sentenced confesses to his or her crime and repents his or her deeds sincerely, he or she may be granted pardon by the inquisitorial judge.

The sentenced that was granted pardon will be strangled on the order of the inquisitorial judge before the flames are ignited.

An imposed sentence cannot be remitted with the exception of a decision of the Inquisitor General.


XXVIII. Final Provisions

Let this Codex come into effect immediately and come to be known in such way that everyone can abide by it from this moment on. Ignoratia iuris non excusat!

>>42075588
Dark Heresy, refluffed for the middle ages. WHF 1st or 2nd ed.

>>42075588
>What would be the best system for roleplaying as christian missionaries and saints battling against pagan sorcerers and their demon gods?

I'd say Dogs in the Vineyard, which is pretty much about doing this in an alternate history Western version of Utah.

I'm also running a D&D campaign similar to that, but more along the lines of the Old Testament. Players are essentially Moses/Samson/David who march around to other pagan peoples' lands and tell them to convert to the one true religion or GTFO while also making sure their own followers don't get retarded and go back to witchcraft and worshiping idols and stuff.

>>42077251
It was kinda cool actually
>Edgy faggots need to go to bed

Revelation of Ezekiel

The Revelation of Ezekiel (also known as the Apocalypse of Ezekiel) is the final chapter of the Book of Ezekiel, written between 221 and 223 of the New Era by Ezekiel of Effrat, the thirteenth Prophet of God, and is hence the final chapter of the whole Holy Scripture. It contains an apocalyptic text about the end of the world that has always been deemed metaphoric in the sense of an eternal struggle between God and the fallen angel.


Opening Words

Blessed are those who read this prophecy out loud and blessed are those who hear and hold that which is written here, for the time has almost come!


The Calling of Ezekiel

I, Ezekiel, your brother that along with you is responsible for the torment of the First Prophet, as well as his reign and persistence, was brought for the word of God to the island of Trimos. I found myself in the ecstasy of spirit and on the day of our Lord I heard a voice like the sound of a trumpet coming from behind me, "That which you see, write into the book and send it to all servants of God, for the day of judgment has come near!"

I turned around to see who was talking to me. And when I did so, I saw a bush shrouded in flames and in them stood the messenger of God, Archangel Gabriel, in armor blazing with gold and with a flaming sword in his hand. Upon seeing him I fell to the ground as if dead, but he put his right hand onto me and said, "Don't be afraid. I am the messenger of the first and of the last, of the Son of Man and of the heavenly Father that holds keys both to the grave and to life. Write down then that which you have seen—that which is, as well as that which is to happen next."

A Letter to all the People of God

To those that rest in the womb of the Mother Church and praise God and his Heavenly Son, I write this.

Those who have ears, hear that which God said to the Church:

Those who will be victorious shall be fed from the tree of life in God's paradise.

Those who will be victorious shall not be harmed by the second death.

Those who will be victorious shall be dressed in white robes and their names shall not be erased from the Book of Life. Those who will be victorious shall become pillars in my temple and they shall not leave it anymore.

Those who will be victorious shall receive power over nations; they shall tend them with iron crutches and as clay vessels they shall break them.

Those who will be victorious shall be seated on a throne, just as the First Prophet took a seat with his Father on his throne.

Those who have ears, hear that which God said to the Church.


Seeing the Power of God

I had a vision then. Behold, the doors to heaven opened and the voice that spoke to me before and had the sound of trumpet, said to me now, "Come hither and I shall show you what is to happen next." I found myself in an ecstasy of spirit at once: And behold, the heavenly throne was empty and God stood next to it bleeding. Around that throne four other thrones, each for one king of the world. And on those thrones sat the kings of North, South, East and West, dressed in dazzling white robes with crowns made of gold on their heads. But when I gave another look to the four kings I saw monstrous beasts—the first akin to a lion, the second to a bull, the third to a man and the fourth to an eagle. And through day and night relentlessly they shouted:

"Your time has come to an end, God Almighty, and we shall feed on your flesh, for the fallen angel walks in your shadow now."

>>42081000
Look, just turn the document file you're extracting all this shit from into a pdf and post that. It'll probably be easier to read.

A Book Sealed Three Times Was Accepted By The Prophet

And in the right hand of that who was bleeding I saw a book full with words up to the last page, secured with three seals. And I saw a stately angel proclaiming in a mighty voice, "Who is worthy to open this book and break these three seals?" But none on the ground nor beneath it was able to take the book and break its seals.

Then I saw the First Prophet, the one who was sacrificed for all of mankind, standing amongst the thrones and accepting the book from the hands of that who was bleeding.

And when he grasped the book, the world moved and flames covered the throne of God. At that moment the four beasts started to sing on their thrones:

"You are worthy to accept this book and break its seals because you were sacrificed, with your blood you redeemed all the people for God, people of all tribes, languages, nations and races, and made them the kingly clergy of our Lord. But are you worthy to come to reign over a land that does not bless deeds of yours?"

And I set my eyes on the land and saw vice, fornication, gluttony, envy and wrath, all seven sins were filled to the brim and the Devil was striking at heaven’s gates already.

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>>42081030
Why are you so worried about this? Aren't you the guy complaining about this shit?

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>>42081030
Want us to chew your food for you while were at it?

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I'm seeing a lot of Chatholic doctorine in this thread. Is this a missionary thread? The true agenda, obviously.

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Just because of Witchfinder Anon I'm saving this thread in the archive for posterity.

>>42077024
>That is because no man is born a sinner—but rather becomes one during his life as a consequence of his deeds. God Almighty grants the gift of magic powers to the souls yet unstained by the dirt of life.

Good stuff anon but this direct opposition to standard Christian dogma. Original Sin is a standard part of.all the large sects. If this is the theology of a small.splinter sect, do go on

Oh, and also, saints and prophets never do magic. Theey call on God and he performs the miracle. Magic is strictly the domain of the devil and pagan gods, according to dogma

>>42081474
>Good stuff anon but this direct opposition to standard Christian dogma

This.

See:
>Romans 3:23
>Romans 5:12–21
>1 Corinthians 15:22
>Psalm 51:5

There's plenty more too.

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>>42081474
>direct opposition to standard Christian dogma
I think we can look over that, especialy when considering things like:
>In case of doubts, it is necessary to adhere to what is more certain.
>Heresy, disbelief and apostasy of faith are always more certain than innocence of persons against which the inquisitorial trial is proceeded.

We must first realise the general outlines of the theology of Christian faith and ethics framed by the early Fathers in terms of Hebrew Scripture, Greek philosophy, the mystery religions and the underlying primitive rites, and how this all got derailed into an alternative 14th century where they try to justify the existence of magic. How do you get from Patristic thinking to Pathfinder refluff?

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>>42081994
There is a story in the Holy Scripture that tells a tale of Lot's wife who turned into a pillar of salt because she disobeyed her husband's bidding not to turn back to see what has happened to the cursed city of the sodomites. It was a manifestation of divine wrath which strikes all who disobeys God's forbiddance. This chapter of the Holy Scripture had such an influence on thinkers who were creating the principles of the magic of true faith that they found a formula which does exactly the same thing that happened to Lot's wife—it turns the target into a pillar of salt. The only disadvantage of this spell is that its effects are only temporary.

>>42082050
>creating the principles
More like discovering and developing the principles.

The Holy Scripture is full of images where a sinner is punished for acting against the divine order. The idea that a sinner could be punished for his sin instantly on the spot has always been very attractive to the mystics dealing with the magic of true faith and they made a lot of effort to transfer the images of the Holy Scripture to a formula that kills anybody who speaks ill of God. The Lightning spell was thus created which materializes a ball of energy and directs it to a body of the target in the form of a lightning bolt.

>>42081474
>Theey call on God and he performs the miracle
That's 90% of IRL magic traditions.

FFS the guy who turned the Children of Lir back into humans was a christian saint.

Magic came down to getting the Gods/Spirits to do cool stuff for you on a whim.

>>42082094
Too blunt and kind of a cheap flavour text to justify having someone just shoot lightning in the name of righteous indignation.

One of the miracles from the times of saint prophets most frequently described in the Holy Scripture was insight. It was an ability the prophets could use to uncover pretence and hidden traps of both human and infernal origin by a single look. By thorough studies of this phenomena and many experiments the thinkers who were focusing on this area of magic found a magical formula which gives one the ability of insight similar to the ability described in the Holy Scripture.

>>42082113
>Magic came down to getting the Gods/Spirits to do cool stuff for you on a whim.
Invocation? He'd very likely already know that. Get objects consecrated to all sorts of aerial spirits and stuff, do funky stuff with that.

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>>42082226
>Detect Magic, Detect Undead, Detect Evil, Detect Invisibility, Detect Scrying, Detect Poison, Detect Snares & Pits, Detect Charm, Detect Lie, etc., Detect Everything.

So how do we stat Jesus?

>>42075588
Dogs in the Vineyard, brother.

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>>42082050
כו וַתַּבֵּט אִשְׁתּוֹ, מֵאַחֲרָיו; וַתְּהִי, נְצִיב מֶלַח
26. But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

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You might consider one of the following

Witch Hunters RPG. Inspired by the Solomon Kane stories it's the closest to what you want.((https://my.mixtape.moe/avupfj.pdf))

Basic Role Playing. Powers games such as Call of Chtulu. System agnostic which means you'll need to traipse around the place stealing without rhyme or reason until you've hacked together something workable. Very friendly once you've tamed it.
((https://my.mixtape.moe/mefguj.pdf))

Fate Accelerated. Now this is an odd duck as it's most likely going to be the most adept at handling subtle things like miracles in a way that doesn't feel like spells will be quite easy.
((https://my.mixtape.moe/dhlomq.pdf))

Image unrelated, but cool.

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>>42077024

The basic manifestation of divine power and mercy is the healing power that heals and cures wounds. But the principle can be reversed as well through the just divine wrath as it is understood and used by the inquisitorial magic. Powers which can heal wounds through our Lord can be turned to His angry side and hurled at a being which is not worth His kindness. The body will be wounded as a punishment for the committed sins.

>>42082547
>pic

"ow" entirely fails as an adequate reaction, and yet nothing else will do better.

>>42082311

He's the DMPC of the game writer: his sheet is intentionally left blank and only filled out when needed: supposedly, he can not only have any spell at once, but also just write a new spell when needed if it doesn't exactly exist in some form already.

>>42075588
dark ages inquisitor, because that is more or less what the game is about.

>>42075588
Fiasco. Or possibly Dread.

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>>42081474
>>42081852

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>>42081474
>theology of a small splinter sect

bump for Spanish inquisition

>>42085082
I don't think anyone expects it.

>>42085082
The Spanish Inquisition (1478–1834)
The Portuguese Inquisition (1536–1821)

Portugal and Spain in the late Middle Ages consisted largely of multicultural territories of muslim and jewish influence, conquered from the Islamic states of Al-Andalus, and the new Christian authorities could not assume that all their subjects would suddenly become and remain orthodox Catholics. So the Inquisition in Iberia, in the lands of the Reconquista counties and kingdoms like Leon, Castile and Aragon people let their superstitious nature take hold. It was a time of fear, who would the Inquisitors target next? Hope it's not me, better tell someone my neighbor looks a bit too Jewy, that'll take the pressure off of me. Basically how people thought. It was like a lesser degree of living in Nazi Germany and Salem, Massachuesets.

>>42085244
>t was a time of fear, who would the Inquisitors target next? Hope it's not me, better tell someone my neighbor looks a bit too Jewy, that'll take the pressure off of me

That's...exactly the reverse of history, albeit a perfect copypasta of Enlightenment era propaganda.

Witch-fears were a grassroots movement, enabled by secular rulers for material ends. The Inquisitions were formed to ameliorate their misdeeds through rational study, and were successful.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of "durr Catholics Nazis."

>>42085244
The death toll of the Inquisitions have been exaggerated more and more as time has gone on.

They were the original "muh 12 bajillion jewz!"

>>42085279
>>42085289
No...they destroyed their homes, burned down their business, dug up the graves of their ancestors, banished them and often killed them

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>>42085279
>>42085289

Inquisitors didn't hunt witches, that is true.
However, they did exterminate Cathars and many other "heretical" sects and hunted down Jews and Muslims and converted them with sword.

>>42075588
Barbarians of Lemuria. Your characters are all Priest 2 and two other careers (preferably Gladiator, Noble, Bard, or Scribe), the BBEGs are Druid 1, Wizard 2 (or Warlord 2) and one other career (Noble, Alchemist, Barbarian, Scribe, etc).

>>42075588
Also, Paladin. With no cool magic allowed for light animus users.

>>42077899
Well his god did not like kinslaying. So to hell he goes.

>>42075588
Chuubo's using the Epic Fantasy genre, and treating most pagan powers as Bleak, allowing faith in God and service to His law as a valid defense against the Bleak.

>>42079784
what the hell is this

>>42081852
>>Romans 3:23
says 'all have sinned', it talks about deeds.

>Romans 5:12–21
says that death arrived through adam, and specifically mentionsthat Adam is a pattern for those to come, meaning people will act like him, the first sinner, as opposed to him being a weight on everyone.

>1 Corinthians 15:22
again, just talks that adam brought death upon the world

>Psalm 51:5

look, just read it:
> Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
just because something mentions sin and conception doesn't make it applicable to a discussion on original sin.

>>42080592
Dark Heresy is a good choice, just stick to the primitive weapons and gear.

The original sin was a desire for knowledge.

Seeking understanding is bad, and you should never understand anything, only believe in the bible and what it tells you.

That sums up the bible's purpose entirely.

>>42086371
*dips trilby*

>>42075588
Solomon Kane essentially? Perhaps Witch Hunter?

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>>42086371
That's completely wrong. The phenomenon of using the bible exclusively as a handbook for understanding the world is called sola scriptura, and it's a relatively recent ideological concept in Christianity--and it is exclusive to certain Protestant denominations.

For the rest of Christendom, the bible was and is merely one part of religious lore.

>>42076336
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvKRbi2ovDY

>>42086371
Creationism has not been Catholic Church doctrine since the 330s.

Also the church was the educational system of post Roman Europe and was responsible for the preservation of knowledge in the social unrest that followed. When secular authorities started getting their own schools up and going they were often subsidised by the Church in either funding or people to run them.

>>42085721
This is true, but the numbers have been greatly exaggerated as part of the "Black Legend" surrounding Spain, which was largely spread by Protestants during the 18th and 19th centuries as propaganda.

In actuality the records of the Spanish inquisition have been found and audited, and the number of people they actually had a hand in abusing was very short. Over the span of hundreds of years they tortured fewer people than the CIA did last week, and very occasionally executed people. Compared to secular powers of the day they were positively restrained.

We don't hear about this because it is more fun to imagine the Inquisition as a sinister organization of torture and murder, instead of the bureaucratic appendix of the church that it actually was--a dead-end job for clerics who had fucked everything else up.

>>42086371
You know that also can be translated as a loss of innocence or a creation of social morality right? The first major actions that Adam and Eve preform is cover themselves up because they became ashamed of the fact that they where naked. You could go so far as to say that eating the apple created the social issues that we as a people have now.

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Has anyone else noticed that everyone on /tg/ is a fucking theologian?

>>42086773
Theology is the most basic purpose of man

>>42085721
>>42086732

You know that the Spanish Inquisition is not "The Inquisition" dont you?
There was a Medieval Inquisition, the one that presecuted the Cathars and did not penetrate in Castile (it had some presence in the Aragonese Crown), and a Spanish one created at the end of the Middle Ages which played her role during the Early Modern Age and was called Spanish cause it was "national".
There were even more Inquisitions.

>>42086773
And an expert historian that knows the absolute facts behind what actually happened.

>>42086048
Saxons and Franks aren't kin. His brother wasn't murdered by him.

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>over 100 posts
>no Dragonraid

You guys a shit.

Is it me or do Catholics make the best fucking characters ever?

Like playing an Irishman, a Frenchmen, a Spaniard, or Itallian blow playing some faggot German or Englishman

Orthadox are cool though

>>42076593
Thirded.

Came here just to post this.

>>42089366
Or, looking at the rest of the thread, sixthed.

>>42075588
>enjoying being culturecucked by beliefs invented by shitskinned towelhead camelfucker jews

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>>42086773
Poor, poor Aquinas

I actually have an excuse though. I went to a Baptist university where biweekly 'chapel services' -usually just a guest speaker or a musician or an author - were mandatory, as were at least two courses on the bible. Furthermore, every course was expected to, in some degree or another, relate to and reinforce Christian theology.

Yes, even math.

So I basically got a crash course in apologetics (first thing I learned - they actually chose that name, its not just an insult applied to the field by scientists. Like, who calls their field of study that? Apolo fucking getics. The study of saying you're sorry.)

Incidentally this is also where I lost my faith in God. Or rather more correctly, in the Christian church. Yeah yeah le tips fedora

>>42089564

I went into Religious Studies and likewise lost my faith. I did it largely so I could argue with street preachers - three years of hebrew, aramaic, and koine greek, textual study, and god only knows what else later, I realized I had peeled away ever layer of the onion that was my belief, and there was nothing at the core.

Not bad, since I was a Jesus camp alumni. Still am, I suppose.

>>42089598
>>42089564

It's kind of an open secret in seminaries and other faith institutions that the more you study, the more likely you are to lose your faith - it's just not possible to maintain certain beliefs in the face of actual knowledge about how they went down.

The thing that did in Biblical literacy for me, for instance, was how much goddamn sense the Documentary Hypothesis made, and how little sense the individual stories made without it. Biblical inerrancy was soon to follow.

>>42089598
See you went down the rabbit hole, I just got a normal degree at a uni that happened to be Baptist, because it was cheap and close. Grew up religious though, went to church every week till I was 18, dad was an elder, mom taught Sunday school, etc. Nothing stronger than that though, family was/is pretty laid back. My parents mostly became Christian in response to the knd of raging assholes their athiest in-laws were.

>>42089641

Realizing I might be unfair here - there are obviously people who come out of the program with their faith as strong as ever. In my experience, though, those have been the people who either a) literally believe that the evidence of reality is nothing compared to god, or b) never bothered themselves too much with evidence, and just want to be good people and do good things, and view that as God working through them.

The Preacher Project, though, is showing that for a lot of people, by that point, they just keep going because it's all they know to do - they can't exactly come out as athiests. There are a sizeable number of congregations in the US lead by athiests who are closeted, because they've felt railroaded into their careers, and think that they'll cause serious harm if they come out as having lost their faith.

>>42089641
Learning about the methodology that first propagated the Bible - oral tradition kept my Hebrews for thousands of years that somehonnever err'd - was the first chink for me. That and.my OT profesaor insisting that, while the sun WAS older than the earth, light did not exist until the first day. Like the sun was just there, not... Doing anything.

I think he also tried to tell us that the great flood was the first time it RAINED. That may have been a misunderstanding it was a big class

>>42089688

>I think he also tried to tell us that the great flood was the first time it RAINED. That may have been a misunderstanding it was a big class

Nope, that's a common evangelical interperetation. Before the Noachian Deluge, God watered the Earth from below.

>>42089703
OK cool I'm not crazy then.

At least, nothing to do with that anyway.

Also that is very dumb

>>42089703
In my upbringing, this also explained dinosaurs going away and lifespans shrinking. The water that had been up in the sky protecting us was now gone, and now dinosaurs are just lizards that don't grow as old.

>>42089730
So the assertion being we were being shielded from solar radiation by moisture in the atmosphere?

>>42089773
That's my understanding of the theory, yes. It was a long time ago I was taught it.

>>42089564
>Apolo fucking getics. The study of saying you're sorry.

ok just look into the Greek roots of the word

Socrates was not apologizing. He was giving his Apology.

>>42089703
>>42089716
>>42089730
>>42089773
>>42089802
You watched Kent Hovind or Ken Hamm videos and probably had a lot to do with Baptists or the other insane varieties of Protestants.

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>>42089564
>>42089598
>>42089641

>It's kind of an open secret in seminaries and other faith institutions that the more you study, the more likely you are to lose your faith

I study theology at the university but luckily I don't have this problem because I have always been an open atheist.

>>42089641

faith is not rooted in worldly knowledge

/tg/ does some of the best theology threads because even most of the atheist posters are knowledgeable about the subject (both theology and church history) and the ones who aren't and just shitpost get an education.

/tg/ truly the best board

>>42090066
Ken Hamm sounds familiar. And my family is pretty hardcore Biblical literalists. We only went to non-denominational churches though.

>itt
>protestant "theologians"

>>42090138
Depending on geography in America "non denominational" usually means "Baptist who disagree with the denominational baptist down the street."

You see this often with cafeteria churches.

I hate cafeteria churches.

>>42089730
>>42089773
>>42089802

Hum...well, I'm catholic and I'm currently studing apologetics. We usually follow the idea that the Genesis is more of an alegory for the relationship between man and God.

By the way, most catholics are evolutionists.

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>>42090164

>>42090211
These theories about water canopy and all that are firmly "answers in genesis" bullshit. Peddled by the type of American Protestant that teaches there are no true Christians in the world but their kind and so they never are exposed to apologetics in any way other than theirs, which are flawed in a big way, and so they suffer a great deal later in life for it.

>>42090211
It's my understanding that even the Jews see Genesis as allegory. I told this to my family and the response was:

Well Jews don't always know what's right.

Or something to that effect.

Seemed pretty arrogant considering it's part of their holy book.

>>42080114
>>42080246
>>42080453


What kind of creature would they fight in this setting?

What about being a pagan beserker/seer/priest and battling against decadent Christians and their dead god?

>>42090280
Christendom has seen genesis as metaphor and allegory since the 300s, and it's not like it was taken literally before then though. The previous 300 years were all "survive Rome" rather than philosophize much.

The reformation really got out of hand.

>>42090359

sola scriptura is dumb

>>42090401
And the understatement of the year goes to.......Anon!

>>42090349
Myfarog.

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>>42090349

>What about being a pagan beserker/seer/priest and battling against decadent Christians and their dead god?

"ÄLÄ SAATANA LYÖ SILLÄ KIRVEELLÄ!"

I actually had one or two games planned, where vampires use Christian churches and congregations to infiltrate Roman Empire and Tokugawa Japan. Vampires consider themselves to be "only true Christians" because they have gained immortality by drinking the blood of Christ (or so they believe at least). Naturally they wage war against other Christian societies because they are considered to be monsters and heretics. Crosses, symbols of Christ temporal defeat, burn and hurt them (living, non-vampire Christians thin that this is because they have been cursed by God).

>>42090742

I meant to say "Christ's temporary defeat". My bad.

>>42075588

Dogs in the Vineyard is more or less built for this kind of thing, and has reasonably satisfying mechanics despite how light they are. Your mileage may vary, though

Burning Wheel is very adaptable to this kind of thing without much work. The Faith emotional magic in the system is very appropriate, and everything else is just refluffing and disallowing non-human races. It's a crunchier system with a strong focus on the characters and their beliefs, allowing them to really drive the game

>>42075588
Dogs in the Vineyard.

>>42090777
I actually read it as "Christ temporal" like, the "false" Christ these other sects the gnostic vampires worship in ignorance. Which made a lot of sense.

I suggest you adopt the phrasing "Christ temporal"

>>42075588
Find someone who adopted Darklands into a setting and play that

>>42082113
>That's 90% of IRL magic traditions.

When you believe there's only 1 all powerful deity, then the idea that other people following false deities are actually invoking the 1 all powerful deity's power is not acceptable.

So they have to have powers themselves. Or dealing with less powerful malevolant spirits.

>>42086773
>Has anyone else noticed that everyone on /tg/ is a fucking theologian?

Well when your hobby has constant references to theology in it, and involves you spending much of your time as an actual theologian, you kind of learn a thing or two.

Especially if you grow up in a religious household that frowned upon your hobby. Generally makes you want to learn even more about this "forbidden shit".

>>42091887
Theology was forbidden in your house?

How awful.

>>42089646
>See you went down the rabbit hole, I just got a normal degree at a uni that happened to be Baptist, because it was cheap and close. Grew up religious though, went to church every week till I was 18, dad was an elder, mom taught Sunday school, etc

Because even though I considered myself an atheist in highschool, I still made/had lots of friends from church, knew lots of people in the community from my church, got a scholarship thanks to my church, and met several of my girlfriends through my church. Even when I meet new people, it's not uncommon for them to invite me to church with them as a social thing.

More often than not, faith is a lot more about the community than it is the actual faith.

>>42091943
>Theology was forbidden in your house?

Coming home with books on comparative religion, any kind of non-Christian imagery (Catholic imagery was pretty taboo too) and the like was frowned upon. I was chastised for suggesting the book of Genesis was allegory.

And that's without /tg/ related stuff, which my mom was convinced was the devil. I had to hide my magic cards and D&D books to keep her from throwing them away.

But at the same time, my folks were supportive of my interest in science, especially biology, zoology, and paleontology. I just took care never to mention evolution around them.

>>42091078

That is actually pretty clever, I think I will use that. Thanks.

I personally considered these heretical vampires more inverted gnostics or cathars, since both of those groups rejected the material world completely while vampires embrace it. I was inspired by Lancea Sanctum and Sabbath since both of those groups are biblical vampires cults that are not clearly satanic unlike, for example, the vampire cults from old Hammer Films.

>>42075588
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_%28role-playing_game%29

>>42086751
>eating the apple
It's only listed as fruit; it could very well be a fig or dates.

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>>42090337
>What kind of creatures would they fight in this setting?
The usual.

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>>42093008

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>>42093036

>>42090349
I want the heathen barbarians to leave, preferably with a sword sticking in them.

Unwary peasants, me thinks. Cultists, cultists, blapshemers, cultistis, and heretics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TtafkMpqvY

>>42093064
>Christopher Lloyd drives back the foul undead in the yet to be released Evil Dead sequel.

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>>42082226
>Common sense is a superpower.

bump for blasphemers

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>>42094833

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>>42094953

Hero/RuneQuest

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>>42094833
germanics get out

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>>42092118
>protestants
>not
>even
>once

>>42085721
Cathars were heretical, not sure why you put heretical in quotations.

>>42089564
>baptists
>christian

*tips heresy*

>>42095111
They gave up the whore of Babylon for the humility of Christ.

>>42095089
Dude in your strawmanmeme might be a faggot, but Christianity is ride with sandniggertry, shitskinnery, towelheadery, and kikery. I'll pass, and take paganism. At least it's produced by white people.

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>>42095159

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>>42095170

>>42095220
Something wrong, Mechshahmedabethashech?

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>>42095159

Friendly reminder that if your church doesn't have apostolic succession it is heretical at the roots.

>>42095301
The church is people, not a building.

>>42095301
There was no "Pope" in the first few centuries after Christ and the term did not even exist. The Protestants, like Luther and Calvin, who used to be Catholics, realized this because they could read the Bible and Councils in the original languages. They KNEW that there was NO Pope in the Bible and that it was completely made up. Why do you think that the RCC tried so hard to keep the Bible in Latin? To keep it away from the masses. The Protestants wanted the Bible to be available to everyone in their own language. The rest, as they say, is history.

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>>42095206
>>42095111
>>42095301
>>42095579

>>42095661
can you go away
the bible is not meant to be read literally and out of context

>>42095170
>At least it's produced by white people.
You mean indians.

>>42095648
>There was no "Pope" in the first few centuries after Christ and the term did not even exist.
The Bishop of Rome, most honored of the sees.

>>42095768
>The Bishop of Rome, most honored of the sees.
Peter was never the bishop of Rome either, he was the Patriarch of Antioch because of Jesus commission as "Apostle to the circumcised"

>>42095685
>the bible is not meant to be read literally and out of context
You mean the mankind has been using it wrong for 2000 years?

>>42095768

>The Bishop of Rome, most honored of the sees.

After Stephen VI, John XII, Benedict IX, Alexander VI and many, many others I don't think it is that honored any more. And let's not forget those nazis that they helped to escape through ratlines.

>>42095955

>And let's not forget those nazis that they helped to escape through ratlines.

I meant to say the Church helped nazis to escape, not that those particular popes I mentioned helped nazis to escape. That would be silly.

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>>42095170
Look, we get you're upset your gods are weak false idols, but we'll let you join any Christian sect you want - even gnosticism, you choose.

>>42095872
It has been around for more than 2000 years. And yes, the naive approach is definitely not any "word of God".

Take Jesus for example; the guy went around claiming to be the son of God, the messiah. He was barred from synagogues, and everyone who associated with him was barred from synagogues. And the guy went to people and told them to abandon everything and follow him. Comparing it to Christianity today it is a totally different thing, you just can't read it out of context.

>>42096024
How's that camel semen taste, Jabar?

>>42095821
>Peter was never the bishop of Rome either, he was the Patriarch of Antioch
And of Alexandria. The three Petrine Sees.
Fun fact: the coptic bishop got the honorary title of Pope as well. And the RCC has to recognise that and call him Pope as well in all their dealings.

>>42095872
Read some Church Fathers. Calling people out for taking a simplistic, literal understanding of passages is common. But the second wave of reformation changed that.

>>42096060
What's it like guzzling wolf semen every full moon and yelling gibberish in forests while hacking random symbols into stones? I wouldn't know, I'm busy brewing beer in my monastery while reading hand-bound manuscripts as I sample the finest imported wine. Sure beats living like a superstitious peasant who's about to receive the merciful sword of God's holy warriors at sunrise.

>>42095089
Isn't it substantially less than 2000 years of Christianity? Particularly for places outside of central europe such as the Slavic countries, the Nordic Countries, and the British Isles? This overlooking the fact that Christianity in Europe spent most of its history coexisting with paganism.

Can a /tg/ theologian explain an aspect of Cathar belief to me? I'm doing a little light reading because I know nothing about them. The thing I'm stuck on is the difference between Old and New Testament God. Old Testament is the evil creator of the material and the New Testament God is creator of all spiritual goodness. Where are the differences between them? What makes them two separate gods, is it that the Old has no Christians?

>>42096201
>Being this happy about bowing and scraping before dead jews and arabs

>>42096470

Well, the Old Testament God or Rex Mundi ("The King of the World") as the Cathars called him is judgemental lawful evil tyrant who kills people through horrible catastrophes while the New Testament God is a kind, loving chaotic good healer who tries to save people from the painful Material World.

>>42096470
The demiurge is a factor in most gnostic belief systems, he's the creator of this world in the same way a two year old makes finger paints. Does his best but fails (the level of malice in the demiurge varies from sect to sect) and thus we have imperfection, Jesus is the emissary of the true God, beyond all reality, and Sophia, literally just Wisdom.

When the OT God seems like he arbitrarily breaks his toys just because, it's the demiurge (to Cathars and other Gnostics) when Jesus says "Ego sum via, veritas et vita." it's the real deal God.

>>42096634
>>42096635
So the Cathars were gnostic? If so, that makes a lot more sense. It was the distinction which made OT and NTGod separate beings I didn't get, but if it's a demiurge deal, fair enough.

>>42096780
They were gnostic, yes. But they tried so very hard to be more orthodox Gnostics than the bogomils or (God help us) Manichaeans.

They just took things a bit too far (perfecti, but the common folks get to screw everyone and everything). Had they had a bit more internal regulation they could potentially been dealt with with a softer hand.

What would be /tg/'s recommended reading after Kierkegaard?

>>42096914
Have you done Mere Christianity? It's too bad the Anglicans don't make new saints, Lewis would be a shoe-in.

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>>42095955

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>>42097147

>>42096995

I never understand how people can stand Lewis. I know that I am probably not his intended audience and yes he has some philosophically interesting ideas but every time I read his works he always seems to be rather smug and haughty. In his fiction his characters are mostly cardboard and his stories are resolved through Deus Ex Machina. I have only read "Mere Christianity", "Screwtape Letters" and the whole "Space Trilogy" so I don't claim to know all of his works.

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>>42095111

Yeah. Eventually I figured that religion is less about the actual "facts" and more about community, ties to others, and how it makes you feel.

So eventually, I found myself practicing voodoo. Awesome folks, plenty of pomp and circumstance, ecstatic experiences, and the warm fuzzy feelings.

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>>42097256

My zombie.

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>>42097176

>>42097239
Zeal of the convert. He was a smart guy who figured everything should be as obvious to them as it ended up being to him, despite the fact it took him 30~ years to get there.

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>>42097299

>>42097256
Symcratic faiths always seems more interesting, though not my personal choice of faith.

>>42095685

"Don't pray to middlemen" isn't a fucking metaphor, faggot.

>>42097333
Because it's interesting to watch the blending and evolution faiths.

Even the mainstream faiths like Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism wouldn't be here without other religions influencing them.

>>42097333

It's a ready combination of Christianity, African, and Native American faiths. Vodou/Voodoo/Santeria/Lukumi really is the religion of America.

>>42097302
Well that and that most of his apologetic works are the transcriptions of radio broadcasts during the war. Needed some morale boosting propaganda in there.

>>42097399
>pray to middlemen

Shows a fundamental lack of understanding of Catholicism.

>>42097441

Yeah Yeah blah blah "you're actually asking the ghost of a saint to pray to god on your behalf", like that's really how people end up doing it.

More importantly, acting like anyone has special divine authority is inherently blasphemous. No man has a greater connection to god because of his title or the shape of his hat.

>>42097147
I totally read that as "leaves the Vatican at night to feed on the homeless."

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>>42097525

>leaves the Vatican at night to feed on the homeless.

Werewolves have infected the Pope with their curse. Are you able to cure the Pope before the next full moon comes?

>>42097505
>More importantly, acting like anyone has special divine authority is inherently blasphemous. No man has a greater connection to god...

Except, for... you know that one guy... To the point where they had to retcon him into actually being God in order to try and avoid looking like hypocrites.

>>42097505
Didn't God really love David? Like so much that he didn't exterminate the Jews or something?

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Theology threads are always the best.

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>>42076593
Correct Answer.

>>42097409
>>42097418
I say that because I did a paper on Syncretic faith for college, more specifically the blending of native culture and christianity (see Ghost Dance/Wovoka religon, and Native American Church.) Even most modern monotheist religons around the world adopt to their environments.
>>42097691
I would disagree whole heartily.

>>42097598
How is it a retcon? It is stated explicitly in scripture multiple times.

>>42097886
>How is it a retcon? It is stated explicitly in scripture multiple times.

The scriptures never say that Jesus himself is YWHW. Sent by YWHW, son of YWHW maybe, but not YWHW himself.

>>42097650

Well yes, god granted favors to people he liked and fucked up people he didn't, but the point is that anyone can talk to god and he will hear it, you don't need a chaperon or some chaste mailman in a robe to get your letter in the complaint box.

>>42097598

Well yes, obviously Jesus is exempt from that, being God's kid or whatever

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>>42097938
He says it himself though. "Before Abraham was, I AM."

As Lewis asserted, he was either lying, insane or demonic. Only possibilities.

>>42076336
My god has a bigger dick. Checkmate.

>>42097974
>>Well yes, obviously Jesus is exempt from that, being God's kid or whatever

How does that make him exempt? And aren't we all YHWH's children? And where does it ever state that the Messiah will be YHWH's literal offspring?

And didn't YHWH commonly make a habit of communicating and power information through mortals who then intervened/explained on YHWH's behalf instead of revealing things to and doing stuff for followers personally?

>>42098000
>He says it himself though. "Before Abraham was, I AM."

I AM is a term for YHWH. So yeah, before Abraham, there YHWH.

>>42098100

>How does that make him exempt?

Because he's divinely spawned. Not simply a creation, but a part of him.

>And where does it ever state that the Messiah will be YHWH's literal offspring?

That's the whole point of the immaculate conception. God was the dad.

>And didn't YHWH commonly make a habit of communicating and power information through mortals who then intervened/explained on YHWH's behalf

Yes. But the point of that is that those he trusted to serve as his messengers were also those he trusted to be LEADERS. There role was not simply to bring a message, but to guide those the message was intended for.

And as the bible goes to great lengths to demonstrate, even such people are not infallible, and their word should not be considered as such. Except jesus

>>42097176
About this, I know it's gonna get a little more philosophical but w/e, I'm drinking.

Protestantism really missed the boat on the gay thing. Give or take, roughly 10% of the human population is gay or bisexual; give or take, roughly 2% of the human population is harshly metaphysical naturalist. As in, believe in nothing spiritual at all. Quite a lot of that 2% is straight too.

That's a hell of a lot of people that the (usually Protestant) Church fails to serve, but wants the same spiritual fulfillment that most other humans want.

Which doesn't even get close to how American Protestants really like cherrypicking homosexuality out of the sins to get all flustered with. Lots more straight people cheat than gay people even exist, simply cause lots more straight people exist.

>>42098646

>Protestantism really missed the boat on the gay thing.

In Finland, Lutheran Church has been divided because same-sex marriage became legal in Finland about a year ago. Before that a small group had splintered from the main church because of the female priests.

"A June 2014 survey showed that among clergy of the state Evangelical Lutheran Church, 44% support a gender-neutral marriage law, while 41% oppose and 15% are neutral. 60% support church blessings for registered couples. 28% say the Church should abandon the legislated duty to perform marriages if a gender-neutral marriage law is introduced." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Finland#Public_opinion)

>>42098900

>same-sex marriage became legal in Finland about a year ago

About six months ago, I meant to say. I should stop posting.

>>42098918
I assume because of alcohol.

And if people can't get drunk and talk about theology together, then really, humankind is done.

Post away my friend, because I will.

>>42098943

No, it's just six o'clock in the morning here. Sun rises soon, I should have gone to bed three hours ago.

>>42099003
Oh, well, in that case: go to sleep anon.

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>>42099061

And that I shall do. This thread is pretty interesting, hope it is still active when I return.

>>42090814
Underrated post here.

>>42091887

That's interesting. I keep hearing this, and I know it happens sometimes in my church (Im mormon) but my father was the one to introduce me to DnD in the first place. It's funny how people can take the same basic ideas sometimes and go completely different ways.

>>42099306
>Mormon
So how do you like being modern day Arian heretics?

Sorry, cheap shot.

So /tg/, which heresy is best heresy? Of any of the major denominations, gimme your best heresy.

>>42099306

My mom bought into all the hysteria about D&D, harry Potter, and Pokemon cards.

She confronted me one day because she heard a story about some kid who went to the hospital for a splitting migraine, where it was discovered that he had a "psychic type pokemon card" in his pocket.

She asked me "Which pokemon is the psychic one? Do you have it too?"

I told her that I didn't understand the question, and she accused me of playing dumb.

The first time I innocuously mentioned to her that I had played D&D at a friend's house, she started asking all kinds of questions like, "Did the guy in charge light candles or have a special charm or anything? Did he give you levels?"

Over time, she came to understand that while I'm into weird stuff that she didn't understand, that I was a decent person and that she could come to me for explanations about "weird stuff".

I think one of the worst instance was when we were watching some shlocky entertainment news show and they did a short on Furry conventions. She turned to me and asked, "You're not into *that* are you?"

"No mom."

"Okay. I'd still love you, but thank you for not being into *that*."

>Christians show up in pagan lands
>immediately begin killing and torturing the natives and destroying their history
>the "good" guys
As bad as Muslims and like them don't belong in Europe. Just a dumb kike on a stick

>>42099811
Our traditional gods, right? Yeah man I know right they were the best I loved guzzling down wolf semen every full moon and pretending I could turn into an animal to justify murder, it was the best. Holy shit I miss our connection to the land man I miss living in filthy squalor and superstitious nonsense man how dare those dastardly Christians preserve knowledge in their horrible monasteries. OUR GODS WERE THE BEST GODS OUR FIELD WAS BETTER THAN THEIR FIELD OLD GODS A BEST I PRAISE THEM EVERY DAY FOR GLORY AND HONOUR IN BATTLES I WISH I WAS IN BUT AREN'T BECAUSE THOSE SISSY CHRISTIANS CONQUERED US WITH A CLEARLY INFERIOR GOD WHO STAMPED OUT THE POWER OF OUR BACKWARDS PAGAN SECT HEATHEN 4 LYFE BUT YOU KNOW I DON'T EVEN WORSHIP THE OLD THEIR JUST BETTER BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT IN POWER IF WE HAD OUR TRADITIONAL GODS AND VALUES WE'D LIVE IN A SUPER FUTURE UTOPIA OF PEACE AND HONOUR THAT WAS ALSO TRADITIONAL AND CONSERVATIVE AND ONE WITH THE LAND

>>42090349
100% going to make this twisted view a religion in my setting.
Misunderstanding why this totally lg kingdom of humble philanthropists follows a god of undeath.

>>42099945
Except none of that is true you dumb shill. If you actually believe that pagan lands (rome included) were backwater shitholes I feel sorry for you son.

You seem very perturbed is your cuck shed cold?

>>42100278
Well that stuff about murdering pagans came after Rome converted to Christianity, and it was done by them and those who followed after them. So you can't really use Rome as an example of a people persecuted by Christians.

>>42100278
>Except none of that is true
Ha ha you didn't provide an argument. Provide one and we'll talk, dumbass.

>Rome
You know they became Christian, right?

>Shill
>Cuck
Those buzzwords hurt me deeply.

A lot of the confusion from Catholics and Europeans regarding why American Christians hate science so much is because of a fundamental difference - the Catholics believe the Bible is allegorical, and the America. Protestants trumpet LITERALISM. Given the batshit stuff in the Bible you can guess how that goes. This is why apologists are regarded as jokes over here, not scholars. Because while an apologists job is to find the union between faith and SCIENCE, an American apologists job is to find psuedo science and mental backflips that prove the Bible is 100% factual and infallible

>>42099576
Furries: officially worse than worshipping Satan and sorcery

>>42099537
That one with super aesthetic priests but followers who engage in orgies is pretty based

>>42097239
Lewis was a dry author but a pretty good lecturer, apparently. The Discarded Image is a book made out of his lectures and is pretty good, its about renaissance beliefs and mythology.

>>42099576
>Did he give you levels?"
Hahahahaahaaa!

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>>42077075

>>42100838
>the Catholics believe the Bible is allegorical, and the America. Protestants trumpet LITERALISM.
A bit over-simplified, but kinda.
This happened in american protestantism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist–Modernist_Controversy
And the baptists joined the literalist side..

>>42097321
>>42097299
>>42097176
>>42097147
Pope Francis is awesome.

>>42075588
Have based religious comic.

tempsend.com/C455611C6B

>>42101779
>"Did he give you levels?"
Only a few, mom. But I can handle 'em!

>>42097591

a) The pope wears a plain iron cross "out of humility" rather than the gold crosses that his predecessors wore.

b) Werewolves are commonly thought to be harmed by silver that has been inherited. But commonly this myth has been reduced to just "silver harms werewolves."

c) Perhaps the myth has other mistakes as well?

Could it be that the only thing that can kill the Pope-monster is the golden cross worn by Pope Benedictus?

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>>42103233
Clever girl

bump 4 de bump gods