Let's discuss "Fair Folk."Not just Tolkienesque elves, but any fantasy race similar. From Fae and Faeries to Melniboneans from Elric, to even the Valyrian's of ASOIAF. Races who are beautiful, ethereal, and better than the norm, but also flawed in many ways.How do you feel about these races? What's your favorite of these races?
Nymphs and Saytrs
Dark Elves best Elves
>>41231456>How do you feel about these races?Hate them. Race of Mary Sues 99/100 times. Almost never flawed enough to make them tolerable.>What's your favorite of these races?None.
>>41231774You mad?On an unrelated note, would Eldar count as Fair Folk?
The only fae or elves that I've liked, as opposed to just not objecting to, are the fae from Ars Magica. Basically sapient stories that feed off of people playing into them. So, a fae vampire can feed by sucking blood, but being turned away by a crucifix or garlic would feed them as well.
I like fair folk when they're consistently and distinctly different from humans. I can't handle elves which boil down to 'exactly the same as humans but they live in trees' or elves which don't really know what they're doing (i.e. 'haughty and somehow better than humans but also dirty hippies who live in trees'). So, favourites of mine are nasty horrid cannibal wood elves (like the Bosmer) or very alien, horribly beautiful fair folk (like Discworld elves and the fairies in Obsidian Mirror). I also really like the elves like the Noldor in Tolkien's stuff, but I'm less fond of the other Middle Earth elves because I feel like they fall into the 'not sure if they're high elves or wood elves' thing.
>>41231787>>41231726>>41231730 elves are good human stand-ins to war against if you dont want your humans fighting each other (or if you didnt put in black people to hate and kill)fighting near mindless orc armies can get boring
>>41231810>not sure if they're high elves or wood elves' thingbut that was literally the point of elves in the lord of the rings
>>41231456>>41231730I'm with this guy. Like they're never "otherworldly" enough in appearance that they don't seem unlike humans with pointy ears, and the few that do have that alien quality are either rare or exist within the uncanny valley.The thing is that fair folk's only negative traits seem to be aloofness and being self-important pricks. That's a quick way to get hated if it's your only things.Hell I don't even see things that are overly gifted and reliant on magic speaking down against it unless it's a character quirk or they're old or it's class relevant in RPGs- so there's not even a downside of refusing to change and stagnating their potential and being lazy.So seeing mystical people just being either skipping giggling nymphs of mysticism, or stuck up douchebags that happen to pull off amazing shit for no reason aside from "ooooh they're magic and different!" then it grates.
>>41231888Maybe so but I'm just not a fan of it. It's like if dwarves were always insisting they were taller than humans even though they're clearly not.
>>41231456I kind of like the way elves work in Burning Wheel, which is very Tolkien.Elves are generally great at stuff. Like they've spent centuries practicing how to do things the Right Way. Generally if you have an elf in the party, he's going to outshine the other players in a lot of ways. But advancements in the game come from making mistakes. The elf does everything the way he's been trained to do, the "perfect" way, so he is inflexible and can't adapt as well as the other players. Then there's the fact that elves have a special stat, called Grief. (Dwarves get Greed, Orcs get Rage, Humans can take Faith if they're religious) This stat expresses their sadness that the world is not what is was nor what it should be. It powers them As it increases, they fight harder and harder to put things right, and "fix" the world, until it finally maxes out. At that point, their grief overcomes them as they realize the world is lost, and they go away, and sail into the west or whatever, and leave the game. OR the Grief turns in on itself, changing into Spite, and the character becomes a Dark Elf, determined to bitterly lash out at the world and hurt it, as a payment for being less than it ought.
>>41231862>fighting near mindless orc armies gets boringIt would if I ever got a chance to fight near mindless orc army stereotypes instead of the bullshit tactical genius/native savage shit everyone and their mom tries to pull with them because apparently countering the base design cliche with something new and constantly reused to the point it becomes a new cliche is perfectly fine.Just like how people always meet in a tavern.Oh wait, they fucking don't, even though that's a logical meeting place.Like if I want a higher force with actual political reasons behind the war to fight, then yeah sure. But if I just want generic bad guys that fill in a role of another race to hate for territory then orcs do it way fucking better.
>>41231785I think so, they do fit all the criteria
>>41231862>fighting near mindless orc armies can get boringMindlessly evil orcs are the most pointless concept ever. Why not just replace them with giant bugs or something? Ants and wasps are organized, aggressive, and prone to eating everything they can catch, why not them? You'll get the same level of drama and the same effect on the setting.
>>41231993because thats what orcs are you fucking faggot. they are goons>Mindlessly evil giant bugs are the most pointless concept ever. Why not just replace them with orcs or something?
>>41232024>because thats what orcs are you fucking faggot. they are goonsEven Tolkien acknowledged that not fleshing them out was a mistake.
>>41231993Because humanoid enemies are fun and can use hella cool weapons and armour, but when they're mindlessly evil you don't have to worry about moral repercussions.I've honestly got to the point where I'd prefer more mindlessly evil orcs to yet another 'we're actually a proud honourable warrior culture Gro'zok Vo'ChildRape is a good boy he dindu nuffin' race of orcs.
>>4123204040k orks are best orcsThis is undisputable fact
>>41231918>dirty sindarins and silvians>the same as glorious noldor I bet you like boats too you dirty teleri bastard
>>41232039tolkien also liked hobbitseven the greatest of us are wrong sometimes
>>41232040>I've honestly got to the point where I'd prefer more mindlessly evil orcs to yet another 'we're actually a proud honourable warrior culture Gro'zok Vo'ChildRape is a good boy he dindu nuffin' race of orcs.You can have my old DM then. All he ever did for starting adventures was "orcs and/or goblins of a mindlessly evil nature are stirring up trouble, do something about it." Also I'm pretty sure "they're bad because they're evil, and evil because they're bad" orcs are the standard in the vast majority of fantasy RPGs.
>>41232080But Hobbits were one of the best part of that mythos.
>>41231862tolkien orcs are still technically elves, just tortured by lucifer and his boyfriend until they got cancer and turned evil
>>41232086Don't get me wrong, I like my orcs when they're interesting (mindlessly evil, not just mindless), I just can't be dealing with a race which is trying so hard to subvert the 'orcs are evil' thing they might aswell be green humans.I like Tolkien orcs/goblins, even if he does regret not fleshing them out more, because of stuff like their drive to invent things just so they can continue killing. Stuff like racism between all the different breeds of orcs and orc drama is interesting as fuck but doesn't detract from the 'mindless killing hoard' thing.
>all this ork hateok anon you win. ill genocide the filthy nigger and/or mudslime stand ins...what happens now?>booted out of game for being a hate mongerorcs are the bad guys because you faggots get pissy if any human other than straight white males are massacred i wonder if these anons have every settled a dispute in game by sucking the guy off to pacify him?
>>41232024But that's not the case. There are countless settings where orcs are capable of more. From Lord of the Rings onwards.
>>41232169If they're just evil monsters incapable of good (which Tolkien's orcs weren't, by the way) the players will never get to actually experience any complexities you include, because they're not going to want to deal with them in any capacity, and so you might as well not bother.
>>41231456melniboneans and valyrians are more like the numenoreans than elves. also, that would be a really great war between the three of them
>>41232249so how many zombies and undead has your faggot party rehabilitated?
>>41232351None, because they're not sapient.
>>41232307They're both heavily inspired by Atlantis in terms of being fallen or falling Empires, but they fit the role of Elves in their respective settings.
>>41232368so then you have never used undead in your setting right? because it would be too boring?
>>41232392Oh I use undead. I just don't waste the potential of a race of sapient creatures by having them serve the function of literally mindless creatures like undead.
>>41232409You tell 'em, man. Why would you want more than one kind of "mindless killing machine" anyway?
>>41232409orcs have literally never been mindless in any setting. you are just an annoying faggotone simple difference between orcs and bugs/UD is that they fear, they sneak, they torture, rape, maim, taunt, steal, burn, ect ectthey do a shit ton that "mindless" enemies dont
>wow is to blame for all this muh noble savage orc bullshit>even in wow they arent actually noble savages with green orc jesus being the only exception
>>41232249>the players will never get to actually experience any complexities you include, because they're not going to want to deal with them in any capacity>kidnapped by orcs>sneaking into orc camp>hiding from orcs>no way, characters are literally never exposed to enemy dialogue into which a DM could add racial flavour
>>41232691>thrall is the only noble savage orc in the entire setting>falling this hard for alliance groupthinkkeep cryin bitch nigga
>>41232827wow orks really are dindus. always blaming the white man for everything and claiming to be peace loving while simultaneously raping, burning and killing the white manits poetry
>>41232894>bringing racism into these threadsFuck off
>>41232827Name more then three that aren't violent murdering psychopaths.
>>41231894>they don't seem unlike humans with pointy ears>or exist within the uncanny valleyAre you just bitching to bitch?>That's a quick way to get hated if it's your only things.>fair folkYEAH, THAT'S THE POINT>So seeing mystical people just being either skipping giggling nymphs of mysticism, or stuck up douchebags that happen to pull off amazing shit for no reason aside from "ooooh they're magic and different!" then it grates.HFY!
>>41231679Damn, Drizzt is hotter than I remember.Shame I still can't stand Drow.
>>41232142Aren't Elder Scrolls Orcs kinda the same but not quite so violently transformed and somehow ended up tougher and more industrious than than the other Mer?
>>41233297Possibly. The story is that there were elves who worshipped Trinimac, and when Trinimac was killed and eaten by Boethiah, he was passed back out as Malacath, and his followers became orcs. But this is written by elves, who are not always the most reliable source, especially on old enemies and people they don't like. It's worth noting that one of the two TES novels has Malacath himself say that the story is "too literal." It may just as likely be that the elves who followed Trinimac were taken in by an extant beast race who worshipped Malak, the Daedric Prince of Outcasts, and the orcs are basically a hybrid race like the Bretons. (Thus reconciling some of the bits in obscure bits of lore that seem to imply the orcs were already on Tamriel before the elves arrived.)
>>41233934yeah thats the story the orcs like. in reality they are just smarter gobbos. fucking beats
>>41232058This is correct
>>41233297Tougher? Sure. More industrious? I don't know about that. I don't know much about Orsinium, but outside of it they're pretty much tribal. Meanwhile, the Altmer have an empire, the Dunmer had...their own thing, the bosmer have a history of warring with khajiit, and the maormer have a rich kingdom and a strong navy. Then there were the dwemer (the most industrious of them all), the falmer, who seem to have been ice-hindus or something, the ayleids, who ruled Cyrodiil prior to Saint Alessia's rise, and the left-handed elves that, if nothing else, waged a war on Yokuda before its fall.Sure, a lot can be blamed on racism, but I think orsimer can reasonably be called the LEAST industrious mer in Mundus.
>>41234466All that said, I'm not sure any of them count as fair folk in the sense OP described? I'm not a huge fan of stereotypical pretty, haughty knife-ears, but TES mer don't really fall under that. They're not supernaturally beautiful or even particularly gifted (any more than other races). I think they're really well done on the whole.Speaking of fair folk, though...Asari. Mass Effect went full planet of hats mode when they introduced most of the races, and Asari are green space babes meets elves. They're long lived, near-identical to humans, almost universally regarded as attractive, diplomatic, talented with "magic", and generally seem to find other races inferior. I have a headcanon that the destroy ending just temporarily turned all the eezo in range into disruptor torpedoes, which means biotics (like the entire asari species) come away from the battle either dead or with severe internal wounds. Blue fucktards deserve it.
>>41232351My players want to rehabilitate a four armed skeleton. They're not too going to succeed since its mindless, but I think it's neat that they're trying. If they don't fuck up completely, I might say they've discovered a spell that will return some of the skeles mind to it's body or something.
you guise seem rather savvy about tolkien lore.So are tolkien elves round ears or pointy ears?and where is the proof/demonstration of the fact?
>>41237032I recall them having 'leaf shaped ears,' which is still my favourite way to describe elf ears if they're I'd the tree hugging variety, but I'd have to get back to you later with any source.
>"Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.Elves are terrific. They beget terror.The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.No one ever said elves are nice.Elves are bad."I like Pratchetts sociopathic, unempathic, parasitic elves.
My character is a fae rogue that decided to avoid the dishonor and tricksiness of screwing people out of their money with glamour, clever wording, and chains of confusing deals, and instead is focusing on the noble path of beating up someone with a blackjack until they give you money to stop.
>>41231862>(or if you didnt put in black people to hate and kill)What kind of fantasy are you running where blacks are the go to evil guys
Does this count?
>>41238789I dunno. Dude probably still thinks Orcs = Black People, or Drow = Black People. Despite the fact that most Drow are grey and the Orcs are Mongols.
>>41238909>>41239132>>41239182>it will never actually be a woman.why is life cruel?
>>41239233It actually is, but a lesbian.
>>41239182>>41239233>wanting it to be a womanyou gay or something?
>>41239295Checked the tumblr.
>>41239233>>41239295If you find him attractive, there's nothing wrong with it. This is the 21st century and it's ok to be a little bicurious. Explore your sexuality and feel comfortable, nothing's wrong.
>>41239390I find them attractive BECAUSE they look like a woman. It would a be a disapointment if they weren't for the same reason I would be disappointed if I cut into a juicy steak and discovered it was actually made of tofu. It the 21st century it is okay to be a vegetarian, but but what I wanted was steak.
I would actually like to set out on a campaign agains "noble savage, dindunuthin" orcs. Their "nobility" doesn't make them any less savage, and if they refuse to join the Human or Elven Imperium/Kingdom I serve, they should be wiped from the face of the world for the crimes they committed against our settlers, traders and diplomats.>b-but muh sacred ground>b-but muh heritage
>>41232374>>41232374Maybe the melniboneans, haven't read Elric, but the valyrians aren't the elves of their setting children of the forest are, and the others are to some extent. They line up decently with the seelie/unseelie thing for fair folk
>>41237032They're described by Tolkien as "leaf shaped," so probably how they looked in Peter Jackson's moobies, as opposed to kawaii animus and the Warcrap.
anyone run in a game with the fey going on a wild hunt on the mortal races instead of facing the dark and evil wizard X Y and Z
>>41239458More accurate would be if you ATE the steak and loved it, then found out it was tofu.>"But I only love meat!" you'd cryBut you've demonstrated your attraction regardless of knowing their sex. It's ok to be bicurious, anon. You don't have to be so defensive.
>>41232409The undead called, they are infuriated by your assertion that they aren't people and are firing up their social media smear campaign against you.
>>41239197Orcs don't have the culture, tactics, or success to be compared to Mongols.
>>41231456I like them different from human, especially in the mindSee Pratchett and Butcher, for how I like my Fair Folk
>>41239777>Thinking that a dude that looks like a chick looks good>bi-curiousAlso, there's the fact that the person in the image is actually a woman. You're wrong on both counts.
>>41239873>being so defensive about your sexuality>21st centuryOk, I won't force it anymore if you're so obviously uncomfortable addressing your non-heterosexuality.
>>41239777In this metaphor eating the steak would be the same as having sex with the person.>You see the person -> You see the steak>The person looks attractive -> The steak looks deliciousThe person, like the steak, is attractive because it has features that I find attractive-- in the case of the person, feminine features, and in the case of the steak, juicy, meaty goodness.>You look closer at the person -> you cut into the steak>The person is not a woman after all! -> The steak is not meat after all!>Disappointment -> Disappointment>Well I guess I'm not asking you out, then -> Well I guess I'm not eating this meal.Bicurious would be if I looked at a person with feminine features and said "Yeah, I'd date her" and then looked at a person with masculine features and said "On the other hand, that could be fun too...". Tofu-curious would be if I ordered my steak, and my friend ordered a tofu dish, and I said "Hey, your food looks interesting, can I try a bite". Either is fine, but neither is what's happening here. I firmly believe you're being disingenuous here, but this is not a difficult metaphor to grasp.
>>41239923>over-thinking it this muchThat's how I know you're suppressing your true feelings.
I'll never understand why having orcs that are capable of more than "let's burn and rape, and then kill and steal" means they're automatically "noble savages." People compare them to the Mongols frequently, and the Mongols were certainly capable of more than that.
>>41239923You're being baited dude. Sexuality and related forms of trolling is basically "Guaranteed Replies, Chapter 1, Lesson 1."
>>41239777I'll be more direct. Dicks are gross.I've had more than enough exposure to them to determine this fact.
>>41239977>>41239911>>41239777>>41239390>EVERYONE IS A FAGGOT LIKE ME AND ANYONE WHO CLAIMS OTHERWISE IS IN THE CLOSET XDXDXDXDXDXDXDPlease, just fuck off and die.
>>41231993>You'll get the same level of drama and the same effect on the setting.No, you won't. Holy fuck, how one with so little understanding dares to try judging concepts?Orcs were and are always based on mirroring certain human traits. Originally, strictly negative traits, like savagery, selfishness, and cruelty for its own sake, though with time they largely turned into "noble savage" bullshit. You cannot get the same effect with unthinking insectoid organic killdrones.
>>41240003>I've had more than enough exposure to them to determine this fact.I didn't realize you'd experiment already. I withdraw my advice and hope it didn't offend you.>>41240005/pol/ please cease your problematic sperging
>>41231456The typical D&D elf tends to wind up somewhere between LotR elf-saint and Melnibonean dick ass gish, which is basically where D&D elves started: Three Hearts & Three Lions.>What's your favorite of these races?I think probably it'd be most stylish if you could choose between a Nymph type (charming body, plant magic) or a Dryad type (charming magic, plant body).>>41231785Eldar count to whatever degree RPG elves count, probably
>>41240024>LOL UR POL>POOOLLLLLLLLLL>POLPOLPOLPOLPOLPOL>XDXDXDXDXD
>>41240019>No, you won't. Yes, you will. You get a rampaging band of marauders that provides you consequence free conflict.>Orcs were and are always based on mirroring certain human traits.Interesting claim, do you have something from Tolkien to back it up?
>>41240001I know. It isn't even the sex thing, it's the deliberate misunderstanding and misuse of metaphors that gets me. This is my bait, it was made for me.>Captcha: choose all the images of steak.Apt, captcha. Real apt.
>>41231956>>41231993I wanna use absolutely vast hordes of low intelligence orcs as antagonists in 1e or 2e battlesystem.>Why not just replace them with giant bugs or something? Because driders and thri kreen and xixchils are way too badass to use as the generic cannon fodder race.
>>41240043thanks for proving me right
>>41231894This is dumb.Elves and the like generally have the same flaws humans do - i.e. they can be flawed on a personal level, like Feanor. I don't see why they have to be 'balanced' as a race. They're meant to be magical beings. If you demand vidya like balance out of stories you'd have an incredibly boring realm of fiction - nothing would ever be interesting or tense or impressive because all things must line up to relatively the same scale. Imagine how boring the first Luke vs Vader fight would be if they were for some reason totally equal in terms of power and skill.
>>41232307>melniboneans and valyrians are more like the numenoreans than elves.Nah. What's the most mechanically superior OSR type in most situations? The Elf class, or the Elf Fighter-Magic User (add Thief in 2e and you will probably level faster than single class fighters or mages). The guy that battles with swords and sorcery sounds a lot like Elric, but it does not sound much like any LotR guy. Not to mention magic user spells tend to be more amoral.There are a few elf-ish magic girlfriends in Middle Earth that do very huge scale workings like blowing up doom fortresses, but Tolkien is exceptionally vague on the details and they don't really do much fighting per se.Finally Melniboneans are the corrupt descendents of a race that are even more insufferably goody-goody and pure hearted than LotR elves.
>>41232351Insane players in my groups always adopt random unlovable, irredeemable, retarded, and evil monsters. I made the mistake of referring to a zombie as a "girl" instead of a "female" who was eating flesh "with as much innocent delight as she would have eaten cookies in her prior life" and they adopted it.Last 2e campaign I ran the paladin's manor looked rather like a monstergirl whorehouse due to him adopting half the female monster population.
>>41234582Asari strike me as more similar to 4e tieflings or whatever since they ALWAYS breed true over every other race. They also have retarded things on their heads.>>41237032An obscure letter had Tolkien describe elf ears as leaf shaped.
>>41240075Giant bugs, not bug races.
>>41239769I don't usually go full Terry Pratchett opposite day but I do have elves be highly antagonistic in more campaigns than they are nice.About 1/4th are evil campaigns where they face elves as a matter of course.Another 1/4th are campaigns where the regular light side elfs were the ones comprising the armies of doom to try to nip the threat of the fast breeding races in the bud.
>>41240223Not using giant bugs in place of orcs is pretty self explanatory, since they have wildly different parameters even if you use orcs as dumb as possible. They tend to have ultra lethal poison, tend to take up too much space on the map, tend to come in smaller groups, etc.
>>41240260Giant ants are often designed to similar parameters as orcs. Being typically around human size and often capable only of giving a nasty bite.
>>41240285Not really seeing it. Typically orc storylines involve pathing behavior that would be improbable for bugs, as well as other behavior that you will not often see beyond /d/, like torturing and raping people.Or is this satire based off the one anon hyperbolically using "mindless" to refer to orcs?
>>41231726nice meme my friend
>>41240338>Typically orc storylines involve pathing behavior that would be improbable for bugsI'm not sure what you mean here. Ants are perfectly capable of tracking and the like, however.>as well as other behavior that you will not often see beyond /d/, like torturing and raping people.There are species of ants that take slaves.
>>41240413>I'm not sure what you mean hereGenerally killing unlimited amounts of orcs requires more sophisticated tactics than pouring poisoned sugary goo around the perimeter of your base, or in the case of giant ants, LOTS of poisoned sugary goo.In general, orcs aren't as smart as the PCs, but vastly smarter than int - derp beasts.
>>41240449Ah, fair enough. That is something that would require more than giant ants. I still feel "all evil, all the time" orcs are wasted potential for most settings, but I can see their utility in this capacity.
>>41240056>Interesting claim, do you have something from Tolkien to back it up?[cricket noise intensifies]
>>41240140If you're talking LoTR exclusively, yeah, but numenoreans are like that in previous ages, to some extent. Mainly I'm thinking thematically, where melniboneans better fit the "high men" archetype than fairy folk. Also, I was mainly thinking valyrians =!= elves, with the melniboneans thrown in for thoroughness sake
>>41240170>Last 2e campaign I ran the paladin's manor looked rather like a monstergirl whorehouse due to him adopting half the female monster population.This gave me a hilarious mental image of a goody-two-shoes paladin refusing to fight a monster. "No, I won't do it. My mother taught me never to hit girls." "Well, at least let us kill the damn thing! It's chewing on Dirk!" "I'm sorry, but as per my oaths, I have to say no. I'll get her to stop biting him, as that's unladylike, but no stabbing, beating, or killing." "Alright! Fine, but that thing is your responsiblity." Then he winds up with a bunch of them and has to build a stronghold specifically for monsters.
>>41240488I don't find all evil all the time orcs to be wasted potential. Goblins/orcs/etc. are, for the level they're encountered at, the monster most likely to kill PCs. They're dumb enough that you can't really reason with them, smart enough to use basic tactics (and basic tactics are all you need vs low level PCs since they typically are brittle as fuck with nearly no resources), fecund enough to exist in limitless quantity (and to overwhelm any attempts at being nice and providing for them). They're sapient beings, so if you perform atrocities on them, you are generally thought to drop to evil, a final victory for the forces of evil. They're among the weakest foes you'll face but they're going to kill the most people and they're the hardest to get rid of.To me, demoting them to misunderstood ruffians is a downgrade, as it lets PCs spam the same old "be nice to them and give them food and talk to them about their problems" tricks to handle them.Never underestimate the tactical versatility and psychological effect orcs can have on PCs. Virtually any baddy can use tons of them. Even if the orcs are often too weak to have an effect, give them greek fire or whatever and they will fuck some stuff up. They also tend to get in the way of PCs and form a great distraction.
>>41231456>how do you feel about these races?
>>41240616Elric denies that he is human, they seem to be (?) of very great age, and have a number of semi-similar spells. In the context of being similar to the "high men" archetype one could view them in the vein of half elves, and qualify for the same reason Aragorn does.
>>41232374I had assumed the Children of the Forest were the elves of the Song of Ice and Fire world.
True Fae from Changeling: The Lost are preferred fae flavour. CtL best nWoD line.
>>41240684Nice. The campaign I ran in retrospect could come off as very fetishy, due to an abundance of naked monstergirls, though the "monsterguys" weren't any different.The girl part probably made them feel sorry for them more when they surrendered though.
>>41240563Well it's pretty obvious, isn't it? Every fictional entity ever was made by a human, and is thus made of human tropes to be appealing to human perception.
>>41240684>lawful good dungeon keeperIs it bad that I want to play that now?
>>41241676It doesn't follow that the specific trope you're citing must therefore be one that Tolkien used. Your argument is getting pretty handwavey.>>41241745I also pictured a My Fair Lady kind of deal, trying to rehabilitate these monsters and teach them manners. Of course it doesn't work too well, they're monsters. "Now, repeat after me: The rain in Spain is main--OW! No biting!"
>>41240849>To me, demoting them to misunderstood ruffians is a downgrade, as it lets PCs spam the same old "be nice to them and give them food and talk to them about their problems" tricks to handle them.No one said to turn them into "misunderstood ruffians" just an actual culture with motives beyond "we're evil because we're evil and evil is evil." The Norse, Huns, Mongols, etc. all managed to wreck plenty of shit without being "evil for the sake of evil."
>>41242472I'm not too knowledgeable about the Huns & Mongols, but most Norse weren't engaged in fucking things up at any given time.Also, naturally evil hardly requires them to be evil for the sake of evil. They could be, for example, evil for the sake of fulfilling the will of their god.
>>41240977The children arent exactly fair.
>>41242635Neither were the fairies, in general. Calling them the Fair Folk was generally an attempt to appease them should any be listening and planning mischief against mankind.
>>41242374It's not my argument, I'm someone else. I'm just saying. Everything that we make in fiction is by default a reflection of humans in some way.
>>41239790>Orcs don't have the culture, tactics, or success to be compared to Mongols.Orcs can fit whatever you need them to so long as they still have the characteristics of an orc.Nowhere does it say Orcs are stupid.
Here's a question. Do you include Dwarves into your fair folk?
>>41243190>Nowhere does it say Orcs are stupid.I'm pretty sure that's the case in most games that include them.
>>41242619>I'm not too knowledgeable about the Huns & Mongols, but most Norse weren't engaged in fucking things up at any given time.No, but the Norse were considered a noteworthy terror during the viking age.>Also, naturally evil hardly requires them to be evil for the sake of evil. They could be, for example, evil for the sake of fulfilling the will of their god.If they're doing it to appease a god, why would they need to be naturally evil? Evil of willing ideological choice accomplishes the same effect.
>>41243208I'm torn on that subject. I tend to think of them as occupying some kind of middle ground between fully otherworldly elves and dryads and forest spirits and fully mundane humans and orcs and such. They're more mortal than not despite being really long-lived, and they work iron, but they also have some kind of metaphysical connection to the stone, and they can do fae stuff like make a rope out the breath of fish and the sound of a cat's footfalls.
>>41243248I disagree. Stupidity isn't an orc trait, it's not unique to them at all.What makes an orc? Start there.
>>41243637>What makes an orc?Nothing in particular. It's a term for a variety of monsters that Tolkien used to describe a race of corrupted elves.
>>41243680We're going to need to divide it from Tolkien if we don't want to be derivative or redundant.The name of Orc has associations with Orcus, the underworld, hell devil, and ogres.
I felt bad for Nuala.The only faerie in the whole series with an actual kind heart who only wished to be noticed by her master and still she ends up accidentally killing Dream.
>>41243379>No, but the Norse were considered a noteworthy terror during the viking age.That's true. The main feature of orcs is generally that they are very ruthless, but also that they have a much higher proportion of their population dedicated to fucking up the enemy and it will pretty much never change. Orcs are an entirely different sort of threat than mongols and vikings and such.>why would they need to be naturally evil? They're typically thought of as having been created with less free will, which is to me a pretty entertaining concept.
>>41243792>>41243637There's no point in trying to remove orcs from a concept Tolkien created over 99% of the parameters of. There are a lot of great takes on them even just in D&D. My personal favorite are gray orcs -- + to str and wisdom, natural trackers, favored enemy clerics. They are the orckiest of orcs to me, because cleric seems a more natural fit than barbarian, and because their scent ability means they will usually know you're there before you even open the door.
>>41244246>Orcs are an entirely different sort of threat than mongols and vikings and such. They're what the average villager on the receiving end of a barbarian raid thinks the barbarians' entire society is. You take it too far, and everything breaks down. Like how dragons are supposed to be scary because they're big flying serpents that breathe fire, horde gold, and kidnap princesses, but if you really try to break that down and extrapolate it too much, it becomes something of a farce. Mostly because fantasy is about FEEL and not about how things would actually play out if taken to their logical conclusion or placed under the scope of impersonal deduction or scientific scrutiny.
>>41242669There's also the others, with a kind of frost giant/winter court/high elf vibe
The only good elf is a dead elf.
I prefer more classical elves.Live in a parallel dimension tied to our own, and sometimes come to ours to dick with people.tolkien a shit