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>>40287078

Hobgoblins are my go-to replacement for the role that elves usually play in a setting when I'm world building.

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>>40287078
My general understanding of hobgoblins as distinct from orcs is mainly that they are way more organized. Where orcs are The Barbarian Horde, hobgoblins are The Evil Empire (or at least Evil City-State.) They are capable of duty and honor to almost the same degree as they are of cruelty and oppression.

>>40287196
This is interesting. Many people I know tend to think they are just larger goblins that dwell in caves and bully around their cousins. Why aren't they used more often?

Threads like this are always really indefinite unless you specifying what you're using. Mythological hobgoblins are different from D&D hobgoblins are different from hobgoblins in other games.

Assuming D&D, hobgoblins are basically humans but better, in that they have a lot of civilizational advantages humans have (and 'savage' races lack) but are tougher and either more dextrous or with more force of personality depending on exactly what edition you're looking at.

You differentiate them from orcs by having them actually be threatening rather than just an occasional raid or horde. There's nothing your humans or elves or dwarves can do that hobgoblins can't: they're organised, competent, they have clear (but oppressive) command structures. Orcs and gnolls will overrun territory but hobgoblins will conquer it, perhaps permanently. If you're going to have a monster nation in your game hobgoblins are a clear choice for it.

D&D/PF fluff has differed on Hobgoblins. 2e has them ultra-evil with "the only form of art hobgoblins recognise is torture"; 3e has an ancient goblinoid empire ruled by hobgoblins, who created goblins and bugbears as servitor races by magically experimenting with their own genetics (freak hobgoblins with magical abilities are still occasionally born as a result); 4e we have to go by monster fluff but there were phalanxes, commanders who held military rank, hands of Bane - basically inquisitors, force mages - hobgoblins eschewing flashier and less directly effective forms of magic. PF has them hate all magic because elves use it.

It's worth noting Bane of all the evil gods in D&D is probably one of the most suitable to being worshiped in even good/neutral societies. He's all about developing your strength, taking ownership and punishing weakness. Red Hand of Doom/4e also indicate a large number of hobgoblins are cultists of Tiamat, too. Hobgoblins own LE highly hierarchical society makes them a good fit to be involved with D&D Devils.

>>40287352
Bane?

>>40287352
This was the way my DM tried to run them. Sadly, he still ran them dumb. Their commanders were grossly incompetent torture junkies.

>>40290564
Personally it's more enjoyable to have them as a conquesting slaver race. Incompetence should be met with exile or a demotion to more menial jobs. I don't get the torture though.

>>40288022
for you

>>40293364
the one with the knife and feathers is pretty rad looking.

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I made a Charisma-casting Hobgoblin Bone Knight/Cleric for a 3.5 game He was a "Jolly Dead" guy with feast and charm domains and a bunch of gaily painted skeletons.

The Hobgoblins as a whole were a sorta Not-Nubia, lesser cousins to the human empire located in not-egypt. I actually missed the battle where the goblinoids got recruited to invade so the party could seize some artifact or another.

I literally walked in as the DM was narrating the chapter ending, and since one of us went off to school in fucking China we haven't really ever picked it up.

(Also he destroyed my necromancy-powered Rehmoraz-armored cart because between that thing and create water we were basically immune to environmental fuckery)


Here's a partial drawing of him. Lost the whole thing sadly.

>>40293364
This is really neat stuff.

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Here's a hobgoblin oni thing.

>>40293364
it always irks me how similar these designs are to my own. The one with the cigar is the exact same down to the broken ear. Every time i see this picture i get this mental battle over whether i saw this picture before or after i made my designs.I hate them and also love them because they're so much better drawn.

>>40293772
YOu were probably both watching westerns,

>>40293364
>Hobgoblin or goblin sketches.png
Goblins. Dwarf Fortress goblins, to be specific, which are pretty much the same thing as LotR orcs. That pic is by Fault, one of the more notable DF drawfags.

>>40293364
>>40293914
Alright cool.

They still fit the role of Hobgoblin in most things, and dedicated Hobgoblin art is rare as fuck.

>>40287078
I love hobgoblins and get annoyed when people make them strong goblins. They are a militaristic race that should crush a simiairly sized human one.

Orcs are raiders, hobgoblins are conquerors.

>>40287352
>It's worth noting Bane of all the evil gods in D&D is probably one of the most suitable to being worshiped in even good/neutral societies.

Not really Hobgoblin related, but that has been done at least once in an official setting; Ravenloft's Church of The Lawgiver (it used to outright be the Church of Bane, but had to obsfucate things a bit for copyright reasons from 3.x onward). The public face involves a lot a preaching about fulfilling the duties of ones' place in society and respecting the divine right to rule, with the more tyrantish and tortury stuff mainly going on behind closed doors.

>>40294361
>Ravenloft's Church of The Lawgiver (it used to outright be the Church of Bane, but had to obsfucate things a bit for copyright reasons from 3.x onward). The public face involves a lot a preaching about fulfilling the duties of ones' place in society and respecting the divine right to rule,
I actually had an idea for a god like that whose fiends take after (Ultimate) Victor Von Doom (Who basically is a goat-legged cross between an Iron golem and a Spinagon devil, made of metal. able to throw nasty barbs of it and breath poison.

One of the patrons of Hobgoblins and vampires in Not-Wallachia

>>40294361
I have played several banites in my time and he's pretty fucking awesome when played as a benevolent supreme dictator Dr. Doom crossed with Kevin spacy. Praise Bane!

>>40294508
The funny thing is that since Detect Good/Evil spells don't work in Ravenloft and Cleric powers aren't actually coming from the god in question, in that instance it's technically entirely possible to play a pure-hearted Lawful Good Banite, though it likely ends with you getting hunted down by The Iron Inquisition for heresy.

>>40294629
Yeah, and even outside the demiplane of edge, Bane can have LN clerics

My players are currently far in a mountainous northern area of the continent, dealing with an army of Hobgoblins, all genetically modified with Ice Giant blood for cold weather resistance. It's probably their first time as players ever dealing with an exceedingly efficient military threat, and I'm enjoying it immensely. Instead of the standard stupid and barbaric horde enemies, they provide some more creativity in how they can approach problems. And where a classic Orc captain might charge the party head on relying on brute force, a Hobgoblin captain retreats, gathers reinforcements, then returns with a force 3 times as strong in a situation designed to be much more compromising for the PCs.

Meanwhile my Orcs are crazed religious nutjobs who ride slapped together sand skiffs in a nearly fluid desert. I fully admit to re-writing their culture and style after seeing Fury Road.

Hobgoblins in my setting are primarily mercenaries. Need well disciplined soldiers that will follow your orders almost absolutely and don't care about morals? Hobgoblins are the way to go. They're also famous for their armor and weaponsmiths for the durability of their crafts. They're not fancy, but they're reliable.

My world also has an order of Hobgoblin Monks that work as basically evil kung fu masters

Humanoid half-breeds are a common fantasy trope in DnD. So why does nobody consider the possibility of Goblinoid half-breeds? I think there's a bunch of wasted potential there. Hoblins, Gobbears and Hobbears are all potentially viable things. The different editions of DnD have all had their own unique additions to the Goblinoid family as well. Blues have fallen in and out of existence with the march of editions. 4e includes Gremlins as both fey and goblinoid. Pathfinder has all sorts of strange things like the Monkey Goblins and Goblin Snakes and the weeb-shit Kijimuna. There's all kind of potential for various half-breeds. In my games I always make Goblinoids a powerful force that rivals the coalition of species that consist of the player races.

>>40294951
I liked the purple-skinned tiger-striped, sonic-scream Vrilgoblins from Drow of the Underdark, hate that they said they couldn't crossbreed with other goblinoids, though that's one of the first things I retcon.

>>40294785
This sounds extremely fun to do. I'm currently writing about the races found in my world and as I was writing hobgoblins I felt eager to include them in my first campaign.

Being able to reasonably pull militaristic tactics even with small groups of hobgoblins in mountain ranges must be satisfying as fuck as a GM and scary as fuck for players.

I've always gone with the idea that hobgoblin society is always ran as an effeciently organized military. There are no fathers, there are "familial-commanders", the older brother is the "familial-sub commander".
The hobgoblin nation in my game is !not soviet union who recently invaded a turbulent mountain region to the north of the players.

>>40295221
I've seen them as basically Spartans, the males are trained from birth to fight and are raised by the military while the females do stuff like farming and most of the crafting.

>>40295281
In my head a hobgoblin's gender wouldn't determine their social and working status, but rather pure strength and skill. The stronger and more intuitive ones would be anything from commanders to expert fighters and the weaker, slower ones would do more menial jobs like cleaning and building

Wow. Prefect timing or the thread. I am going to make a hobgoblin caviler in pathfinder.
He will be a dickass just out for glory and money. He will also be the party tank, so it should be fun. He likes to kill but only in honorable combat, he will lie, but not steal, he is very greedy too. He will follow the law but bend it when he want to. Lawful evil or chaotic neuttal??

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>>40287078
Hooobgoblins!
Hooobgoblins!
What do you do with those Hooobgoblins!?
They're over here...
And they're over there...
Those Darn Hobgoblins are Everywhere!

>>40295664
in pathfinder it says that. Gender means nothing but skill means everything.

>>40287337
>Why aren't they used more often?
I think they end up being as derivative as their names. They're often little more than addedums to goblins. "Hobgoblin? It's just a bigger, meaner goblin, right?"

>>40295740
I'd go Lawful Evil since he exploits it for selfish ends. Unless having an evil alignment would not mesh with tour party somehow

I made hobgoblins in my setting the genetic fuckery of goblins and orcs. Basically some goblins were like, "Hey, we're technically 50% orc, but not that strong, so how about we make some dudes from ours and orcs' similar genetics that are smart like us and strong like orcs."

They created what is basically humans, except physically stronger, orangish-yellow, a little bit smarter, and without the ability to use magic. They also have an inclination towards lawfulness and being honorabu in contrast to the other races nearby.

They then became the dudes who got them, the orcs, goblins, ogres, trolls, even the gnolls and some of the kobolds, to instead of being a bunch of warring barbarian tribes, be this more organized empire, with a council of leaders from each race.


And that's how I use Hobgoblins.

>>40287078
I dunno what the difference between hob goblins and orcs is and why anyone would care that much aside from going to the trouble to give them their own unique culture.

now a myriad of cultured greenskin races isn't a bad thing but that means discarding their role as the go-to badguys and trash mobs of fantasy settings.

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>>40287078
>How do you distinguish hobgoblins from orcs?

I don't. I just use Orcs.

>why don't people use them often in their settings?

They don't feel different enough to validate their existence. I like Orcs: I like how they look, I like doing different things with them, I love re-using them, I love the way they look and I even love their name, "Orc". Orc is such a cool word.

I just don't like Hobgoblins. I think they're unnecessary.

>>40296053
>but that means discarding their role as the go-to badguys and trash mobs of fantasy settings.
But that's pretty cliche bruh
Not saying it can't be used in a good way, but that's what a lot of "standard" fantasy uses

>>40287078

In my setting, Goblinoids & Orcs are all live in cave ecosystems and pretty much get all of their resources through raiding.

Goblins snatch & grab, have a culture that rewards being sneaky & mischievous with an emphasis on not getting caught.

Hobgoblins are more disciplined. Same goals/motives, but more focused, slightly more cutthroat.

If goblinoid races snatch & grab, then orcs fucking heist. They pillage. They don't steal your wares; they raid your farms and burn your towns.

While you were sleeping:
-a goblin stole your weapons
-a hobgoblin slit your throat
-an orc decimated your city

Goblinoid races take small hauls, but they can live off scraps for months, longer if they are lucky. An orc raiding party might only actually venture out twice a decade.

>>40296039
>>40296053
In D&D they've traditionally been different tribes of go-to badguys.

Like you have orcs/ogres/giants who frequently ally and distantly are probably all related. And then goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears (+weird shit like blues and barghests).

>>40296039
>without the ability to use magic
Literally dooming yourself for a fantasy race.

>>40295281
They work for any oppressive society historically, because that's basically all the fluff they have. So sparta or feudal japan or soviet china, whatever.

>>40287078
Personally I like 'em, but at the end of the day, hobgobs are civilized enemies who look monstrous, and that just doesn't gel with a lot of people. Their role can usually be filled by evil humans/humanoids.

>>40294951
>Hoblins, Gobbears and Hobbears are all potentially viable things
What do you see each as being like?

>>40296319
Nigga you don't even know my setting
Only 6 of the 20+ races on their side of the world use magic, and even then for half of them it's only innate elemental magic

>>40296397
What ruleset do you use, anon?

>>40296412
None
Hombrewed rules anon, homebrewed rules

>>40287078
The thing is, hobgoblins ARE orcs. They're actually a closer representation of The Lord of the Rings's orcs than D&D "orcs." D&D orcs are actually more like the de-evolved apemen you see in Conan stories.
The thing is, D&D is very categorical. It uses it's own definitions of things to name the different stat blocks that in fiction would just be unnamed varieties of the same thing. How many creatures in D&D are really just a variety of dragon? Hobgoblins are an example of this. There have been several fictional depictions of them in fantasy settings, they just didn't call them hobgoblins, because D&D is the only place that does. To everyone else they're just Tolkien-style orcs.

>>40296435
Eh, orcs tend to be dumb.

>>40296435

Tolkien-style orcs are weak, undisciplined midgets with a sadistic streak. The biggest orcs are still under human height. They're closer to D&D goblins

At best, the Hobgoblins are more like the Jackson-style orcs

>>40294851

>an order of Hobgoblin Monks that work as basically evil kung fu masters

I never knew how much I wanted this until now. I just might steal this, anon.

>>40296525
More like uruk hai, imo

>>40296567

Jackson's Uruk-hai, maybe

>>40296525
I didn't say they were a perfect representation, just that they were closer than D&D orcs. Tolkien orcs are in fact divided into two social classes, Uruk-hai, stronger soldiers, and Snaga, weaker slaves. Uruk-hai actually aren't that short. That pretty clearly lines up with hobgoblins and goblins.

>>40296439
Not as dumb as D&D orcs.

>>40296676
>Tolkien orcs are in fact divided into two social classes, Uruk-hai, stronger soldiers, and Snaga, weaker slaves.

I know

>Uruk-hai actually aren't that short.

The tallest are "near human size"

>>40296676
>>40296716
Uruk-hai means Orc folk. It's Black Uruks, or Black Orcs, and Snaga, that the distinction is made between. The 'fighting Uruk-hai' as we are want to call Saruman's spawn because of the title of a certain chapter aren't the only ones called Uruk-Hai.

>>40296158
hey Cliches can be used in pleasing ways. Tropes are just story telling tools after all. There's just as much room for Orcs that are capable of logistics and planning as there are for rape happy raiders.

>>40296305
I honestly don't give a damn what D&D does and have a special disdain for D&D players who refuse to see various mythological creatures done in a way different from what Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Pathfinder do. That said I know a handful of D&D veterans who are great fun but I personally have found weaning anyone whose early P&P years off D&D habits to be a real bitch.

I like murderhobery as much as the next guy but I want to do something aside from gank greenskins for the crime of being greenskins and demand 5x my worth in reward money from hapless nobles after I've despoiled their daughter.

>>40296824
Fair enough. I really like D&D, it owns, it's the parent of all current PnP RPGs and it has developed into a huge idea-space that is 'unique' (through a mixture of actual originality and ripping off everything at once) as a subject.

Like if you've got a dude who's autistic about Forgotten Realms or Chaotic Evil qua Chaotic Evil or whatever, I can see why you'd find that irritating. But I do think D&D is too easily disparaged - it has some fantastic stuff in it.

I've played and GM'd D&D for years, along with other games, and I have literally never done this:
>gank greenskins for the crime of being greenskins and demand 5x my worth in reward money from hapless nobles after I've despoiled their daughter.
I think you're unfairly conflating bad or antisocial players with a particular game.

I always had the theory that someone working on OD&D just accidentally mixed up the names for orcs and hobgoblins after they wrote them up and somehow it stuck.
Orcs are just bigger nastier goblins, hobgoblins are a breed apart, with an extremely disciplined and militaristic society and demeanor.

>>40296921
Nah, back in the old days ALL goblinoids were LE.

>>40296894
the thing of the matter is D&D is based on wargames. So its primary focus is on combat, it rewards combat. There's some ancillary rules for crafting and social stuff that have their own rewards but this is D&D, you play it to kill orcs and rescue princesses and it doesn't matter how many adventure modules or third party splat books you add into the mix you're never gonna get away from what it is, the missing link between wargames and more narrative focused roleplaying games.

d20 is a simple enough rule set, it's easy to learn. "I'm doing something, roll a d20 add/subtract modifier unless I'm doing damage in which case check the weapon's statblock"

D&D deserves to be disparaged because most of what is awesome about it is the fluff, it's got something like 40 years of campaign settings, adventure modules, and flat out bizarre lore (looking at you Drow) so it does deserve some respect.

But being a GM is hard, it's hard teaching players to roleplay, getting them to cultivate plans and work on doing things like claiming thrones or becoming arch wizards when most of the starting modules for D&D can be summed up as "adventuring party goes to place and kills things <insert transition scene here> then they kill things some more <transition scene> they kill the boss <roll credits, outro narration>"

yeah you can apply that to newer systems but those newer systems aren't the public face of tabletop gaming and they aren't renowned as the start of roleplaying games.

D&D is okay, but it's a murderhobo's game, it's built right into the ruleset and Gygax's stance on divine justice doesn't help matters. By all means, respect it. But it's old, and everything about it that's great would be great elsewhere if you just ripped it out of D&D's clunky d20 system and put it somewhere else.

Currently I'm using hobgoblins and goblins for comic relief. Hobgoblins use goblins as cannon fodder for a variety of cunning yet ultimately flawed plans, the main flaw being they're depending on goblins to execute them.

It'll also make a fun twist when the PCs finally confront a decent amount of hobgoblins directly, expecting them to be goofy, and they turn out to be as brutal as they are cunning

>>40296965
>most of the starting modules for D&D can be summed up as "adventuring party goes to place and kills things <insert transition scene here> then they kill things some more <transition scene> they kill the boss <roll credits, outro narration>"
This is true for like 3.x onwards but some of the old-school modules for D&D are really interestingly constructed.

I get where you're coming from though. I just personally feel, I guess, that most TTRPGs have a combat focus in terms of rules (even stuff like the *World games have more abilities that interact with combat or violence) and how that actually plays out into the game depends on the particular game and group. Making combat risky is probably a better incentive against it than a diminished rule space in your main book.

>>40297028
Point, the earliest ones were by the numbers but once they found their feet they started getting clever. Myth-Drannor has to be one of the best adventure modules I've ever seen since you can toss out the main plot and just have the party go off on a tangent and try and raid the place for loot and turn the acquisition and monetization of such loot into it's own adventure. Hell I always wanted to run a "reclaiming myth-drannor" game, never got around to it.

kinda wish P&P games focused less on pure combat and more on doing things like building kingdoms and stuff. Killing dragons gets stale after awhile.

>>40288022
You don't get to bring clerics

Hobgoblins are the Superior Evil Race. Orcs are shit.

It is known.

>>40296053
Orcs are gross, semi-negroid, pig-man abominations powered by rape and other vices.

Hobgoblins are upstanding fascists like the rest of us.

>>40296824
>but I want to do something aside from gank greenskins for the crime of being greenskins and demand 5x my worth in reward money from hapless nobles after I've despoiled their daughter.

>wanting to do anything besides despoiling noble daughters

Art thou of Sodomous Temperament, knave?

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>>40297399
>not despoiling noble sons and daughters

>>40287078
>TFW my language has no translation for Hobgoblins because we already have goblins and orcs.

>>40297399
I am in fact a Knave and I do in fact engage in frequent sodomy with both sexes.

and noble daughters are a terrible lay 90% of the time, no sexual experience. It's a fucking chore.

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>>40297423
>>40297438
All these Sodomites
I want to chastise them all

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>>40297451
As a knight I think you'll find you're bound to obey the prince, your master.

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>>40297490
Quite true. What would he have me do, and what does this have to do with your Sodomous iniquities?

I think Warcraft is to "blame" for some of it. It's kind of a lot of people's (myself included) entrance into fantasy and spends a lot of time establishing the cultures of the different races. Warcraft orcs are noble and civilized, DnD orcs aren't, but when you transpose Warcraft orcs to DnD they overlap the Hobgoblin niche pretty significantly. And since Hobgoblins are more obscure, they don't get used as much.

>>40287078
Orcs are a generic mindless horde that burns and pillages everything but generally can't stay very organized. Dangerous in numbers but rarely ever achieving large numbers because of the inherent fractiousness. In effect they're more of a raiding culture.

Hobgoblins are organized, smart, and use tactics instead of just raids, more akin to the Mongol Horde; cunning, culturally savage, but perfectly willing tone tactically adaptable and learn new tactics. Their cultural weakness relies not on their lack of organization but how internally treacherous and fractious they are. They're all organized into clan-like "Legions" (they all call themselves that, regardless of size) and every Tyrant (their name for the overall leader) is totally convinced that HE would make the best leader and all other hobgoblins should bow before HIM. Many hobgoblins in individual armies share similar opinions as well.
Much like the Mongol Horde (which fractured relatively quickly, forming the Yuan Dynasty, the Golden Horde, the Khara-Khitai Khanate, etc) they're based off of they have the problem of a tightly organized internal hierarchy that ultimately still defaults to "rule of the strongest and smartest and most not-dead", so any massive hobgoblin hordes break apart thanks to constant team-killing despite being organized. Lawful does not mean "We All Work Together" remember, it just means "We Have Rules We All Agree To Follow".

The primary difference in-world so far is that while orc raiders can be a terrifying threat to smaller communities they make shitty mercenaries and even worse minions for other villains, but hobgoblins while being more tactically reliable are much less likely to be loyal and look for ways to stab you in the back later.

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>>40297697
Actually it's WarHAMMER that is to blame for some of it, not WarCRAFT, though the first WarCraft game definitely helped popularize the concept.

Originally orcs in older D&D books (read; everything published before Warhammer's popular take on orcs) has them being "strong but bow-legged", kinda on the short side, and with a wide variety of skin colors, usually ending up described as being grey-ish, not green. They resoected strength but were also somewhat cowardly, a race of bullies who backed down once fully confronted with equal force.
Notably this was pretty much how Tolkien wrote them.

Warhammer's "violent fearless hulking bright green muscle-man" was popularized by WarCraft copying the design almost entirely (possibly because persistent rumors suggests WarCraft was intended to be a licensed Warhammer game originally before they made their own fluff).

Originally orcs were dangerous in numbers, but it was hobgoblins that were the tall, strong, tough badass monsters, NOT orcs.

THIS is how orcs were drawn in the MM prior to 3E when WarCraft made the other style popular.

In my setting hobgoblins are a race of disciplined and strict warriors that live in fortress-cities at the edges of civilization (eastern plains, Blackforest, northern wastes). They're not evil per say, but they are evil more often then not. If a hobgoblin is guilty of a great crime, he is expelled from the lands of the fortress. Since they are way to proud to ask for asylum in a rival hobgoblin state, they become travelling mercenaries. In some cases they band together to form mercenary units, such as the famous Black Griffon Company. Their iron discipline and cold-blood make such units very demanded. Outsiders are not prohibited from entering hobgoblin lands, but most of the time the kilometers of red tape required to get a staying permit for a hobgoblin fortress are enough to keep the number of visitors to a minimum. Fortress life in general is strictly regulated and heavily bureaucratic, making life for non-hobgoblins a pain. A hobgoblin city-state might decide to wage war for a multitude of reasons, be it as an offering to Bane, or to secure strategic ressources. But when a hobgoblin army marches to war, it is very difficult to stop. The few times the hobgoblin realms have united in a common cause, nothing but the northern deamons has been able to stand in their way.

>>40298268
That's kinda cool

>>40296807
No, you're wrong. That is the literal translation of uruk-hai, but is does in fact only refer to the social class (or breed) of bigger orcs. Black orcs are a different particular breed or race of orc. And yes, everyone who isn't a total moviefag knows that not only Saruman's orcs are called uruk-hai.

Also, a relevant quote:
"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)."
—J.R.R. Tolkien in the Preface of The Hobbit

>>40298325
Yeah. I think the feature that most differentiates my hobgoblins from others, is that it isn't their treachery that keeps them from being the dominant race, it's their unhealthy obssesion with bureaucratizing anything up to levels that make hobgoblins irrelevant.

So if orcs are chaotic marauders and hobgoblins are fascist conquerors, then where do gnolls fit in? I've always thought of orcs, hobgoblins, and gnolls as making up the triumvirate of evil humanoids in d&d but I'm not sure what differentiates them from orcs. Are they just even more chaotic and violent since they were created by Yeenoghu? Maybe they have closer contacts with demons?

>>40298696
Lazy bums

>>40298696
I make them more tribal and fluff them a primordial/african style magic. While the Orcs have no laws and the hobs have many, the gnolls have a few, but religiously respect them. Also a close connection to their god and its minions.

>>40298696
I made them the tribal escapees of a ruined ancient kingdom. They're not really "evil", but the race on a whole are pretty bitter and cynical, along with wanting revenge against the decimators of their previous kingdom.

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In one of my old D&D homebrews, my Hobgoblins were ubermensch.

Far in the past, orc hordes battled with human tribes and caused trouble for Dwarves and Elves. The Dwarves/Elves were able to convince the human tribes to turn on the orcs and they pretty much drove them off the continents.

A number of orcs went to a far off island continent where the orc equivalent of Sun Tzu/Confucius/Hitler/Osama Bin Laden set down some tenets that the orcs would continue to follow for generations after his death. The end goal was to return to the mainland and get vengeance for being driven out.

They eventually formed caste based society focused on creating the perfect war machine. Hobgoblins became the leadership and elite troops, Bugbears became shocktroopers, and goblins performed most everything else.

Centuries later, they invaded the mainland, and fucked over the human empire and human/dwarven/elven alliance that had been formed since then. They caught everyone completely by surprise and fucked shit up. The war would eventually result in the balkinization among the other powers.

But right when victory seemed assured, they inexplicably performed a near total withdrawal. They left a lot of troops behind, who have since gone native and either integrated into societies that would have them, formed communities of their own or reverted to banditry.

In my setting Orcs vary from industrious and disciplined, to chaotic marauders. Hobgoblins are more tribal like their smaller cousins, but follow strict cultural laws to stop in fighting between tribes. Hobs don't breed as fast as goblins and aren't as strong or militaristic as Orcs, so the rely on strong communal tribes. Being nomadic, they will band together and help neighbouring clans when threatened. Essentially hobgoblins are more nomadic gypsies/native americans/travelling merchants and sometimes raiders. In short,Orcs are meritocratic, and can be either lawful or barbaric, while hobs are a blend of uncivilized and lawful

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>>40297910
>orcs in older D&D books

The oldest orcs were described as pig-faced, and this was literal. Seriously: the 1st Ed Monster Manual had orcs looking like someone planted a pig's head on a human body. This continued all the way to 2nd Edition, when the graphics were altered to have a snoutish nose - bye bye old piggy orcs. Pictured: some of the old orcs.

That picture's from the Monstrous Manual, isn't it? I only have the loose leaf binder for 2nd Ed.

>>40295740
Lawful neutral. He's selfish and self serving, but if he doesn't go out of his way to make life shitty for others, you'd have a hard time calling him evil. At the end of the day, alignments are just guidelines though.

>>40297423
Is that a butt plug in the top-left?

>>40296433
Tell us about your setting/mechanics!

>>40296965
some great stories are like that though. The 3 Musketeers? The Princess Bride?

tbh I like my stories full of conflict and combat. no combat, no fun!

>>40298696
Hmm, i'd say that orcs are dumb brutish tribals, whereas gnolls are sadistic tribals. Orcs will kill you, but they're less likely to torture you.

>>40301040
I rather not talk about mechanics, as I have all that stuff on another computer, and it's hard to remember all of it. I can recall most of the setting from memory though.

The question is, what would you want to hear about? Because I got a shitton of stuff on my planet. Elves? Orcs? Demons?

>>40301403
Orcs please.

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>>40287078
>and other goblinoid creatures too I guess
What about Varags?
Anyone remember Varags?
No?
o-okay then

>>40301868
I remember Varags. Contemplated using some in a campaign once, but never got around to that subplot.

>>40296549
I think he's talking about Iron-Skin Monks or something like that. 3.P Hobgoblin exclusive monk archetype.

>>40301426
Alright, Orcs. Orcs, along with Dwarves, were the races created to keep the magic races, Demons and Elves, in check. Dwarves were the brains, and Orcs were the brawn. This created a racial alliance between them, and it still holds somewhat to the present day.

Anyways, a long and bloody war happdned, so the gods went, "Shit, we fucked up." They sent the Orcs to the west, Dwarves to the north, Elves could stay where they are, and the Demons were supposed to originally go on the other side of the world, across the ring of mountains that go across the prime meridian to live with the Giants, but realized they'd probably fuck up that side too. So they sent them to their own dimensions.

Anyways, the Orcs live on the western continent of the fantastical half, barbar-ing it up against the Gnolls and Kobolds. Since they have Goblins living among them, the insane cross-breeds of Dwarves and Orcs, they become the second people to discover gunpowder, but use it on a more Chinese-esque way than European. Goblins are also the creators of Hobgoblins, as explained above.

Orcs represent the main troops, and the mage-killers, of the Greenskin Empire, a as well as the being the largest percentage of the population, and have kind of an Asian mixed with Native-American feel to them, worshipping multiple gods and "spirits" which they consider to be minor pieces of the gods. They believe might makes right, although this is more of a side effect of being created to hate magic and its users, and they do respect cunning and strategy, especially if it's used by "weaker" race to beat a "stronger" one.

Does that explain them well enough?

Orcs and hobgoblins are so similar thematically and physically that I generally just merge them into one species, and if a player wants to run a character from the orc nations, he or she can use the orc or hobgoblin racial bonuses to represent different tribes, climates or origin, physiques, etc.

In my current campaign I have three main places these orcs can come from. The most likely for a PC is the steppes region. The orcs here are nomadic horselords formed into a (very) loose coalition of clans, with those furthest North partially integrated into the string of human settlements that play along the edge of the highlands. They often serve as mercenaries for the human city-states of the region. They've interbred with the local elves so much that they tend to be leaner and lighter on average than other orcs, and so players would probably pick the hobgoblin or half-orc stuff to represent them. It's not uncommon for these clans to actually be split 50/50 ish elves and orcs.

Further North East are the clans that left when humans came and pushed them out of the southern lands. They have a similar culture, but haven't had any genetic or cultural input from elves/humans. Physically they're more of what you'd expect from an orc, on average bigger than their southern cousins. They've been disparate for decades but have recently been united under a single khan.

Then there's the guys that went straight North when they left rather than North East. The players haven't had many encounters with them yet but they're the gist of them is that they lucked out and hit some fine ores up there. They've become a more static, industrial society with a rigid caste system and a massive boner for martial honour. Think Rome + Japan.

Why do a lot of people make orcs Eastern-oriented? I mean, there's a lot of people that make them barbarians and shit, but when they're civilized, they're Asians. Why is that?

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>>40303797
Warcraft 3

>>40303797
Actually when civilized I see them far more as middle eastern desert folk.

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>>40303968
Would Middle-East count as Eastern?

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To go down a completely different path, I prefer to handle goblins and hobgoblins more like in this old thread:

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/17037845/

That is, something closer to their folkloric roots, where goblins are minor spirits/fey/supernatural nuisances that might be a problem for locals, possibly even a lethal problem, but are not likely to amass an army. A goblin's more likely to steal things from your house at night, or trick you into eating a cursed apple. At worst, they'd jump and kill a lone wanderer in the wilderness, or cause a fatal accident in a peasant's house.

And, as in folklore, I use hobgoblins as the flip side to all, that. They're helpful house spirits, supernatural servants and helpers who are reclusive and mysterious in their own way.

And I generally just don't use orcs at all.

>>40303797
Tolkien described them as sort and slanty eyed. I'm pretty sure he actually said they were meant to be Asian in one of his letters. They're very Mongolian.

>>40303797
My idea of Civilized Orcs would have them be more technically inclined. About as technologically adept as a Dorf is actually. Mostly inspired by 40k tech. Orks have a brutal aesthetic and find beauty in ugliness in disease. So a lot of their equipment have a rusty paint-like texture to them.

>>40287078
Orks are stronger, tougher and more agressive
Hobgoblins are leaner, more organized and plans ahead.

Only reason I don't use them Is that my players stay clear of them after meeting the 4th editions Phalanx Hobgoblins.

One of two TPK's, the other was Ettercaps with greataxes that rolled more 20's in one session then the party did up until that paint.

This thread had me thinking last night about cool Hobgoblin tactics. Cause they wouldn't straight out attack a much stronger party, instead they would resort to gorilla warfare. So, set up lots of traps, hit them quick with arrows and run. Over and over again. Then at night instead of attacking them, have a period loud set of horns and drums go off so the party can never sleep. Every day more fatigue and minus's apply and any spellcasters can't recover their spells.

A couple days of that will having a lot of party's cracking.

>>40304922
Guerilla warfare.

Orks do Gorilla warfare.

>>40304922
Hobgoblins would amass an army, pelt them with showers of arrows, keep their distance and not attack in convenient chunks.

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>>40296094
Dude Orcs suck they were just made up by Tolkien so he had shit for his characters to fight but Hobgoblins were actually believed in by them old crazy dudes

>>40287352
What are hobgoblins like in mythology?

>>40305110
My orcs would charge the camp at night, aren't thinking as long term

>>40305628

Classic gorilla warfare.

>>40305558

See: >>40304536

Hobgoblin is one of a number of related words such as hob, hobman, hobthrust, hobyah, hobbit (yes, the word pre-dates Tolkien), and others, all of which refer to rural house-spirits who help with chores and task around a household, but will disappear or turn wrathful if certain rules about their behavior are violated.

Essentially, think of the house-elves from the Harry Potter books.

Hobs and hobgoblins were generally benevolent, in contrast to goblins, a term that was used as a catch-all for myriad types of evil spirits and small monsters, including redcaps, spriggans, boggles, and so on.

>>40303797
Probably because they're grabbing stuff from real-world history.

The Mongols are the closest thing in history to a nomadic major civilisation that I know of, so civilised orcs will be Mongols to most people. Heck, the raiding culture that most people think of when they think of orcs is also the type of thing most people think about the Mongols.

I have a few setting ideas brewing including mideast/egyptian hobgoblins
Hobgoblins as hired-on mortal bodyguards for vampires in not-Wallachia/Transylvania
And Hobgoblins and Orcs as a sort of cousin to Warhammer style beastmen that arise from loggers, swineherds, and others who spend too long in the deep dark Not-Drakwald of my HRE based setting.

>>40305749
Wouldn't that be dropping out of trees and throwing leaves in the air?

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>>40305749

>>40305937

The best moment to drop out of trees is at night.

>>40305802

Orcs are essentially just Hodge-podges of barbarian cliches from across history, since they have no real folkloric underpinnings. Tolkien got the word from an old Anglo-Saxon term that was very broad, encompassing all manner of evil spirits, monsters, giants, and demons.

His orcs were mostly just generic monsters for Sauron/Morgoth/etc to throw at problems until they went away. They weren't very developed as a culture or people, instead Tolkien just used them to showcase humanity's worst elements distilled. His orcs are all backstabbing, cowardly, cruel, vile beings.

In the decades since, other writers cribbed his concept and re-worked it by "borrowing" from real world cultures, generally those Europeans of the past saw as primitive and barbaric.

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>>40287078
>I barely have any imagery of them and most people confuse them for a replacement to orcs.
>>40296094
>>40296435

All of these. I don't mind Traditional hobgoblins. I like em even. They are fine. However I agree with all the above comments about how they are way to close (or basically ARE) orcs.

As such in MY worlds:
>Goblins:
Are your traditional terrors who like mayhem, and are little better than savages. Often I use the Pathfinder goblins to depict this. They are expandable and often use suicide methods to accomplish goals. More peaceful version I snag the Bogarts from MTG's Lorwyn.
>Hobgolins:
Are the intelligent, yet zealous cousins who also enjoy mayhem but prefer using their brains in accomplishing it. Obviously think Warcraft Enginners, but also Marques Masques spy masters and diplomats, and yes sometimes even a warmaster who is similar to the traditional types, but more focused on out thinking his opponents.

Hobo's breed with other hobos to produce more, but sometimes a Hobgoblin will be the random offspring of normal goblins. If they don't wander off in search of more intelligent beings they usually ascend to war leader to tribe shaman.

>>40298696
Gnolls are just slobbering mangy stupid poacher of course.

>>40300835
>That picture's from the Monstrous Manual, isn't it?

Yup.

I always liked the idea that Goblins are actually just young Hobgoblins, but due to rapid maturation and their youthful stupidity, not nearly as many live beyond Goblin as a pupae stage.

>>40300835
>From left, 1st ed MM

Yep. I prefer this.
Newer Orcs just looking like Ugly-human and without reading the description you wouldn't know they were a different race at all- aside from the green side (Which they don't always have, sometimes it's just dark tan)

At least the first version implied there were truly sometime different by glance alone.

>>40298041
Could somebody kindly put a red filter on the skin and photo shop some oni horns onto this? It would make a superb character portrait for me.

>>40287078
Literally one of the most important factions in my Campaign right now.

Half of the Continent is ruled by the Greater Hobgoblin Empire while the rest is under the Kingdom of the Eternal Sun, Elves.

The Party started in a few border fiefdoms. Alot of these fiefdoms were proxy states for the Kingdom of the Eternal Sun. Queue Hobgoblin invasion.

All through the setting they were fighting Orcs and Gnoll raiding parties attacking the fiefdoms. Surely they must be sided with the Hobgoblins right?

Wrong! The Elves were using mass charmed bands of barbarian races to try and usurp and control more power in fiefdoms, convincing them that they only gain from joining the Kingdom of the Eternal Sun.

The Hobgoblins were merely marching to put down these rogue barbarian hordes.

Now the fiefdom the party is in has opened a meeting with the Hobgoblin high general. The Party, literally none of them not good, are now conflicted as a warparty of a hundred well armoured Hobgoblin elite footsoldiers stands guard over the fiefdoms chief stronghold, with rumours of Elven Assassins abound.

Also I made Bane a Chaotic Neutral god.

>>40298664
>>40298268

I do this in the exact same way, expect they also made war a bureaucratic thing.

When Hobgoblins go to war, they make official proclamations, sending envoys to their targets usually 3 weeks in advance so they may prepare for invasion.

They also usually accept surrenders and parleys and generally instill little violence after the war has finished.

Many towns owe greater public comodities such as roads and wells to being conquered by Hobgoblins.

>>40307613
Nice flip. Would love to see the players reactions when they start wondering of the Hobgoblins are in the right.

>>40307613
>Bane
>Chaotic Neutral
But his whole entire shtick is that he's lawful, not chaotic

>>40307796
Pretty much already happening.

The Hobgoblin Empire pretty much steamrolled the former Human homeland two hundred years ago, so Humans are often pretty bitter. But the plan is the party is asked to visit said lands and find them perfectly fine, in fact, better than the Fiefdoms in quality of life and freedoms.

My idea is that the Elven Kingdom of the Eternal Sun is ruled by people wavered to easily by emotion, so you have petty politics amongst the noble houses and backstabbery and the desire for power.

The Hobgoblin Empire is the total opposite, an almost emotionless Bureaucracy Designed to absorb and refine cultures and beliefs under the main goal of conquest.

In truth Bane worship fell out of style in the Hobgoblin Empire decades ago and the current Emperor is actually a Dwarf known as Volskar the Grim.

Neither Side is evil. One is just Chaotic, the other is Lawful.

>>40307902
I meant Lawful Neutral, I screwed that up.

>>40296392
do someone has the english version of this?

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>>40308183

>>40308380
What the shit?

>>40307906
great idea's, really wish I could play in that

>>40308441
>He doesn't know about MGE or monster girls

>>40308441
It's the english version of the hobgoblin Monster Girl Encyclopedia page anon.

>>40307906
Interesting.

One thing I'd recommend is to keep things relatively balanced. Don't make the Empire too spotless, or the Kingdom too degenerate. Make sure there are reasons to support either one, otherwise the choices the players eventually make will feel sort of hollow and forced.

>>40309547
What the shit is Monster Girls.

>>40310640
Pure shit made by closet furries, that's what.

>>40310659
off /tg/ for you! Hater of half breeds!

WTF Captcha? A bleeding pigs head is food?

>>40310689
How about you go back to whatever board or thread is supposed to contain your filthy kind?

>>40310640
Alright, so you take a monster, say like a dragon
And then you give it tits
That's a monster girl, /tg/ loves them, everybody knows this

>>40310814
Shoo! Go on, get outta here you foul demon!

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>>40311493
Nuuuu!

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Cross one of these Bad Boys with a Hobgblin for loads of fun./

>>40293364
Neither, they are Chinese cartoon half elf half goblin hybrids.

>>40301868
Oh god, those fucking page borders still make me rage.

>>40301868
I sometimes think of their place in my settings.

>>40312665
Why?

>>40287078
I have Hobgoblins as just kind of the Goblin "master race", sort of an ancient bloodline that crops up from time to time. Maybe one out of every fifty Goblins is a Hobgoblin.
While Goblins stand at 5 ft. (with a slight hunch), a Hobgoblin stands about eye level with the average man, though the length of their torso is a bit longer. Their arms are also such longer proportionally to a man's with their hands usually reaching their knees. Many Hobgoblins also have an innate but weak psychic ability. And while normal Goblins are immune to being burned by an open flame, Hobgoblins can actually breathe fire through their own power.

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I think the middle is a hobgoblin.

You guys use Blues or Vril Goblins at all in your setting?

I just think the name hobgoblin is awkward. It doesn't seem natural. It makes them sound like the derivative creature to the 'goblin' being the ones with the prefix.

>>40317193
I thought Hobs were a kind of medieval poltergeist/brownie, usually one of the vicious ones.

>>40317223
'Hob' was another world for a type of house fairy, yeah.

>>40316627
Just like my Hobgoblins, except even more fucked up genetically

I ran goblinoids as a major society in one setting, the society was in bulk hobgoblins and goblins. They ran as separate but equal groups. Goblins were primarily record keepers and the technology behind the society while Hobgoblins held positions of major authority and were the military backbone of the society. Bugbears were an uncommon bunch but valued for their immense strength, though they never really became much in terms of authority; highly respected but not of real power.

>>40295740
>>40295836
thanks for the feedback!

>>40317952
Now there's an idea. I like this.

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monkey goblin master race