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Sounds like it needs more Nightmares.

Just voicing my general disinterest.

I was just going to ignore this thread, but I think it's at least worth pointing out that my initial reaction was "This is straight-up terrible," while my second thought was "Wait, can it be tongue-and-cheek so-bad-it's-good?" with my final thought being, "It's actually not bad enough to be so-bad-its-good, it's just not really great."

So congrats, I guess. My initial revulsion turned into just general disinterest.

One shot 12-page manga/10

>>36385215
Succubus are dream creatures human's desire for rich and fulfilling love lives. Throughout history they have been muses, fairy-wives, demons. The magical not-woman that man approaches as he would a woman. They are drawn to erotic dreams and the shear fulfilling intimacy of their contact usually leads to dreams becoming erotic.

Mark Twain wrote about a "Platonic Sweetheart" he had in dreams throughout his life. Every few years or so he would dream about this girl who was always the same girl of the same age and beauty but with a different appearance each time.

The above example of a Succubus isn't sexual. Neither was Dante's Beatrice sexual. Irish stories of Fairy-wives describe not only their erotic beauty but the poetic beauty they can inspire in their loves, usually artists or poets. The men are gripped with such passion that it leads to their genius--and sometimes their death.

And that's the dirty part of the succubus. They are a relationship that takes from a man's relationship to the world. They are a dalliance in the fantasy of the night. And maybe it is a good thing for a man to feel that somewhere in someway he is loved with the intensity of a fire almost clean in its simple heat. And maybe it is a horror that his mind drifts through dreams instead of being grounded in life. The Irish poets with fairy lives sometimes lived and sometimes died.

But what of the women in the real world? What of the women who's love is if not taken from them shared with another? Who is it that makes your husband suddenly bury himself in his work guided by a sudden burst of inspiration? Who is it that makes your boyfriend suddenly decline coming to bed with you with a look that says "seen better"? Who is it that makes your husband every so slightly and ever so hurtfully distant and aloof? Who is the succubus? And what are you going to do about her?

>>36385487
....are you....ok?

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>>36385326
I think it would be better if it was just telepathic adventurers fighting against various dream monsters.

I'm imagining a Psychonauts style game involving going into peoples' minds to help them recover from mind affecting spells or mental damage.

>Entering the mind of someone driven insane by looking at an Elder God and repairing their psyche, ending with a fight against an aspect of said god
>Someone's been charmed or dominated, you need to go into their head and unlock the chains controlling them
>A Freddy-like monster killing people in their dreams, you need to go fight it
>A drug or poison is damaging people mentally, you go in to repair it
>A monster that feeds on fear is loose, you counter by helping people over their phobias, fighting superpowered dream versions
>No supernatural cause, you just help the mentally ill in a way no one else can

I think it has potential.

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>>36385487
When a succubus invades the dream of a man the man isn't lucid and upon waking only remembers the dream in brief snatches if he really tries. Think the last time you dreamed of doing something really stupid or out there. How much "choice" did you really have in the dream?

The man may not even be a "person" in the dream but instead just the "dream itself". Think of when you dreamed about something rather than dreamed about doing something.

While a Succubus doesn't drain life force, it does drain and channel emotions and drives. Some succubus just look at men as a quick kick. Others may actually love their hosts and may try to inspire them to do great things--great being subjective. This could be encouraging a life-long criminal to reform or to inspire a pacifist to take up arms in the defense of his country--much to the horror of the boy's lover who doesn't want him to get shot.

>>36385585
Lucid dreaming mortals have to engage the succubus by the rules of the erotic dream. As one anon said the fights should be more "catfightish and less I dream up an exploding sun and throw it at you".

This is very much a bdsm magical realm.

Erotic dream combat is part sexual display and part wrestling. It's not just a pose-off. The goal of the wrestling is to humiliate and control the opponent. Symbolism becomes submission holds. The man's attention is strength (it is his dream after all). Self-confidence and self-image are fortitude and hit points. Pain and humiliation are damage.

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>>36385750
Catfight thread had an example of combat where one woman fighting a succubus remembers that her husband loved the lemon cake she made for him every other week and so dreams herself covered in cake batter. This gives her a sudden surge of strength, but the succubus counters and turns the tables by holding her down and licking the batter off her. The woman loses strength as she becomes less sexual actor and more sexual object.

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>>36385822
From the thread:

"There are two ways to lose a dream duel:lose the guy and lose yourself. Losing the guy (and remember he's dreaming but he isn't lucid. He can only watch and observe and feel) means the guy's attention is focused so much on the rival that the rival's control of the dream becomes absolute. He's only interested in what the loser's dream self is doing insofar as he's interested in what the victorious rival is making her do. The loser's dream self becomes a prop controlled by the victor, a sexual object rather than a sexual actor. The loser is lucid but helpless.

The second is to lose the self. This is tapping out. The pain and humiliation and negative emotion of being dream-handled become too much and the loser begs for mercy. A mortal in this state is probably trapped in her lover's dream and either has to tough it out till waking or convince the victorious succubus to let her go. A woman can barter parts of herself a succubus might find interesting. The feel of kissing or having sex with a certain person, the memory of first love, etc. Succubus rarely "take" memories and feelings. They prefer to copy them so that the loser knows every time she feels or remembers what she lost she isn't feeling or remembering it alone.

A succubus that finds herself at the mercy of a woman is arguably in worse trouble. There's no waking up for her. A mortal woman can force a succubus to swear any number or kind of oathes on unshakeable (I wonder if anon meant infernal?) powers. The succubus could be forced to swear to never again enter the dreams of a certain lover or may even be forced into slavery.

>>36385215
> (succubi?)
Correct

>>36385822
That's a human you racist

>>36385479
Is that really so bad though?

>>36385547

Just trying to contextualize the succubus. I imagine them less parasitic vampires with sex instead of blood and more symbiotic. Folklore has a long tradition of the "inspiring and magical paramour". Sometimes in a positive account, sometimes not. Succubi can implant thoughts as well as take them.

I'm trying to add a little intellectual curiosity to bdsm erotica. The succubus becomes a metaphor for that part of your lover that is always alien to you, always attached to someone or something else that is not you.

It'd be kind of boring if Succubus the dreaming (the name is starting to grow on me) was just roll 3ds to see if the demon swoons as you smother her with your breasts.

So to make a long story short

No. I guess I'm not okay. Objectively its kind of fucked up by mainstream standards to ponder erotic psychic dream duels.

But I'm fine with that.

I hope.

Thank Christ I'm anonymous.

>>36386350
This way its possible to play a "good" succubus who is a dream girl muse helping a struggling novelist find inspiration fighting against an overbearing mortal lover that wants him to quit the book business.

Lots of room for shades of grey.

>>36385548
Reminds me a little of Shade the Changing Man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqTrdptLRrs

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>>36385548
This seems a whole lot more accessible, plus I'd love to play what would essentially be psychonauts the RPG.

That said, I also dig what is going on in this thread otherwise. Because well pic related.

>>36386636
Damn that was a groovy animation, I for one love dream logic.

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>>36386660
What would stats be like? Willpower would be base line hitpoints. Would also control brute forcing the dreamscape,so as you get weaker you it gets harder to focus on lucid dreaming. Maybe a desperate "last stand" mechanic where you can put your remaining willpower points into a roll to turn the tables.

Intimacy would be the attack stat. Measures how much the dreaming male id is paying attention to your dream avatar. Intimacy + willpower makes dream strength.

Self Confidence is the defense stat. Attacks have to pierce it to get at your willpower. Certain moves might not deal willpower damage but instead lower self confidence for a few turns.

Actions consist mostly of increasing intimacy while at the same time attacking an enemy's self confidence. One move may be +2 intimacy -1 self confidence.This would be a mortal putting a succubus that tantalizes men with her dancing and is therefore proud of her long lissome legs into a Boston crab. Vice-versa would be a succubus leaning her head close while she has her rival trapped in a headlock and whispering that its her name the man calls out during sex.

Any thoughts?

>>36387448
This sounds really interesting and good, but I honestly can't add much advice, sorry.

I like this succubus idea a lot. Definitely using it in a game.

It also reminds me of that new me!me!me! thing that has been floating around.

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Keep bringing in more and more players out of nowhere.

>>36385750
Why not convince the Succubus that it's better for both of them to pleasure the man in the dream?

The succubus agrees then dominates the women by tricking convincing the mortal that the demon should wear the strapon.

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>>36385215
I think this idea has potential.

Wow this is my first time on /tg/ and this thread caught my eye. I might be able to help the OP if he is willing to listen to real life experiences with what this poster describes>>36385487. The thing about mark twain having a dream lover. That is something that happened to me for a while. Up to you I guess if you want my input.

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>>36392268
>first time on /tg/
>has relevant experience with dream waifus

You're gonna go far, kid.

>>36385215

28 INT?

Do Succubi have high INT?

>>36392317
yeah its my first time here. Is this a common thing to talk about here?

>>36392543
Not really.

Please go on though.

>>36392516
Yes but only 16.

They have extremely high charisma though

>>36393178
>>36392516
Although the OP image is a Tiefling I believe.

Though that's still a ridiculous stat.

>>36392516
Pretty sure they have 28 charisma and int in the upper tens

>>36393129
I don't want to hijack the OPs thread. I will try to keep it quick. Some of it was similar to how mark twain described it. A girl who was the same girl, but she looked different each time. For me this started a while ago while I was in school. Tension and stress was high. One night on the verge of sleep and awake, That moment when you are about to fall asleep and you can sorta feel it happen, I heard someone speak to me. It was a girls voice and it happened right behind me. I was laying on my side. Naturally I jolted completely awake and looked to see if there was anyone there. You can probably guess that nobody was there. Later on it took a different form. I started having dreams that where just about this girl. At first she appeared as the shadow/silhouette of a girl. Her common theme was laying on top of me and holding me down. Some guys here will probably be all like "omg you lucky dog", but I can assure you that it was some of the scariest shit ever. Some dreams involved her laying on me and I couldn't even see her at all. I just felt her. Some involved false awakenings. I would be able to kinda "push" her off and jump out of bed, only to realize that I was dreaming about waking up and she would be back on top of me again. I think my record for that is about 5 times. 5 wake ups before I finally woke up for real.

should I go on? this is barely the beginning, but this isnt exactly the place to talk about this sort of hting

>>36393621
This is exactly the place to talk about this sort of thing.

We love /x/rays.

>>36393694
Yeah I have spent some time on /x/ a long time ago and asked them about this. So I will continue...I suppose.

Sometimes she wont bother my dreams at all, but she will still hang around. She watches them happen like she is watching a show on tv. I can tell, for the most part, when she is interacting with my dreams. The whole mood of the dream changes. It stops being what the dream is originally about, and it goes to our own little space of solitude where she will either lay on top of me and manipulate my body is some way, or she will say some weird gibberish that I don't understand most times. When she manipulates body parts it feels really strange. It feels like being a puppet on strings. She will move individual body parts like she is experimenting or something. She can also bend me into impossible proportions. An example would be her making my foot touch the back of my head. I cant do that irl just so you know. Idk why she liked playing with my body so much, but it does happen sometimes. Another weird thing is where my body gets flung around my dream room. I can feel her energy just kinda pulling me around. This doesn't bother me that much. Its more on the relaxing side because of the energy feeling she gives me while she does it. When she is on top of me she does cover me with her "energy". I think its to keep me calm. While it does hold me in place it feel really good. Kinda feels like sex, but with the entire body.

I could literately go on for hours about all this, but It doesn't make sense to post about it here. This thread isnt about my experiences with my dream waifu. And some of the stuff is a little explicit. Idk what the rules are about that on this board.

>>36392516
I'm pretty sure that creatures with 28 INT are busy unraveling the ultimate truth of the universe, ruling their planar empires or creating powerful artefacts, not wearing pink t-shirts with some stupid text.

>>36394148
Go on.

>>36394677
maybe you should ask for what you want to know about specifically. This could take forever if I had to pull it all from memory. She has been my dream waifu for about 7 years now.

>>36394810
Highlights for concise writing time.

>>36393621
OP here, tell us everything. This is super relevant.

I don't give a fuck about the dream things, I just want to see catfights

>>36394810
How do you think she would react if suddenly someone wanted to be your irl girlfriend?

>>36395048
The dream stuff makes the catfights interesting. Gives personality and motivations to the fighters.

This way when one finally taps out it means something.

>>36394912
>>36395004
its unlikely that i will be able to even come close to remembering everything I have experienced with her in my dreams. I remember one of the highlights being tentacle rape tho. Too much hentai I guess.

>>36395060
I had a irl girlfriend at the time when i was with her. She actually kinda appeared around the same time I got together with her. I think that me finding interesting things in real life does give her ideas. IE: the tentacle thing i mentioned earlier. Im sure ive seen more than enough hentai to where she can kinda feed off it and use it as a means to approach me. For a while she would practically visit me every night. Not so common anymore, but she did fill a sort of gap that i had in my life. If she visited me consistently like she did a long time ago im certain that I probably wouldn't even need to date a irl girl ever again. She has a much better imagination, and she feels a hell of a lot more pleasurable.

Yeah this is getting kinda weird for me to reminisce. Im talking as tho she is a real person, and Im actually kinda missing her right now. Her and her creepy antics

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>>36390376
An "open dream relationship" is certainly possible.

It's also open how much the man knows about what's going on. Maybe the succubus just works on his subconscious slightly effecting his mood and temperament. Maybe he's also lucid like Mark Twain and "knows"" he's in a dream.

Which of course leaves the woman with the option of revealing herself to her lover or maybe adopting a separate dream persona like Paprika to see if she can compete with the succubus dream girl to dream girl. Maybe the mortal in some way feels guilty about trying to move in on the succubus and that is why she's in disguise. She has the man for all the waking time and he's loyal as anyone could be and her marriage vows never seemed explicit on dreams. Maybe it's okay for a man to have a devoted succubus and a wife?

Lots of storytelling options here. Which is kind of the point.

Paprika would definitely be on the succubus media list. What was that she said in the movie? Man + woman + Paprika = baby? The division between Paprika and her human self is certainly the kind of friction a succubus RPG would deal with. Her human side is only loyal to the fat guy but her dream self is flirtatious to everyone.

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>>36395311
Irl girlfriend vs dream waifu. How similar or dissimilar were they? Was dream waifu "aware" of your gf? Did she ever say anything about her?

And of course it must be asked. If she ever engaged in dream combat with your gf as described in this thread what would you think? How would the fight go and who would tap out?

Could this apply to ANY loved person in general? or does it have to be specifically a boyfriend/husband?

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>>36395490
The succubus is a metaphor for the part of a lover that's always distant and concealed. The man married to his work. The man having an affair. The man with secret dreams and longings he's too embarrassed to share. So it could work with anyone. A succubus fighting a woman over another woman for instance.

You could even have an incubus and a man fighting over a woman. But I personaly don't think many femanons are interested in erotic psychic dream combat RPGs.

I could be wrong though.

>>36395712
Well the idea for this thread did originate from a catfight thread

>>36395483
I would say that they weren't even similar at all personality wise, and dream waifu never even cared about my girlfriend at all. I don't think she needed to. She was too powerful even in my own dreams. She knew that she won. At some times I started missing dream waifu, but with my irl girlfriend it was just.....meh.

Na. no dream combat with my girlfriend. I had my fair share of struggles with dream waifu tho. The dreams with her didnt feel like normal dreams. They where different. She wasn't flying around the air or making deliveries to the cotton candy cloud houses in the sky. The dreams where she interacted with me was our own separate space where we did stuff together. Or....more accurately. Where SHE did stuff.

Dream girlfriend would probably beat real girlfriend in dream combat. Real girlfriend was a insecure crazy mess, bud dream girl was more confident as far as i could tell.

>>36385215

Have you played the PS1 game "Adventures of Alundra"? The Game is mostly based around the main hero entering the dreams of villagers possessed by demons and fighting in their dreams.

It can be a rich source of inspiration how to see such a fantasy setting.

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How would /tg/ feel about a pure but not naive waifu vs dream invading succubus quest?

I asked in the catfight thread and got mixed replies. I got a lot of "fuck you quest fags".

Who would /tg/ want to play as? The mortal or the succubus?

I was thinking the story could take place in turn of the century America where interest in spiritualism is high and the Spanish American war is about to break out. Mortal woman's boy friend is an insecure painter who opposes the war until he suddenly goes full patriot and signs up. No matter what the girl says he is hellbent on going to the Philippines with the rough riders claiming to want to make himself worthy of the graces of American Womanhood. Says he saw the girlfriend in the dream tell him to man up and no matter what she says now interprets the dream as the "true" intentions of the girlfriend.

A quick visit to the local spiritualist tells the girl that her man has a succubus problem and a magick ritual can send her to the dream world to confront her. Time to show the shape-stealer who the real girl is!

So what does /tg/ think?

>>36396254
I think you should make it an actual setting or go into writefaggotry instead of taking the easy way out.

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>>36388479
Me!Me!Me! is succubus the dreaming with 50% less erotica and 50% percent more disturbing surreal dream imagery. Here the succubus is less metaphor for the shaded parts of a lover's soul and more depraved sex monster.

Which is fine. One can totally play it that way.

For the same kind of feel I recommend a lot of Gerald Scarff stuff from Pink Floyd's The Wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCMHmDnfD6I

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>>36396534
2 questions

1. IS writefaggotry the easy way out? One could argue writefaggotry is

2. Would /tg/ even want writefaggotry? The ideas seem to interest some people. But some have also expressed general disgust/shame/confusion/disinterest.

Fight Overs:
1. Dream Walker' Willpower is reduced to 0 and subdued.
2. Dreamer's Interest goes 100% to one side. This can be represented by adding as % the willpower damage to an Interest factor. This way even the character with higher Willpower (or regenerating/healing effect) can lose if the other side punches you hard enough.

A broad mechanic can be worked to allow more vanilla-esque game or magical realm one.

>>36396817
Blegh. "One could argue writefaggotry is the easy way out for a quest thread.

Quest or writefaggotry tg? Or neither?

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>>36397789
Good idea with the % willpower thing. It wouldn't be fun if the one with the highest willpower always won.

The game is at base unashamedly magical realm. But can easily be toned down or turned into acid horror like in Me!Me!Me!.

Is it magical realm if you're upfront about it? Magical realm seems to me to be when the party is suddenly ambushed by the DM's fetish. Who gets surprised by a setting that is upfront about being "erotic psychic dream combat"

I can't see anyone IRL actually playing it with other people. No way in hell. Online probably. I've seen erotic based RPGs played online.

>>36398264
I don't think the whole 'if you lose, you're trapped until the succubus lets you go, or you sell part of your soul' thing is conducive to a quest. Questers are kind of shit at dealing with permanent negative consequences and/or removal of player control.

Tapping out would need to be free, costing only the guy (or girl, knowing questfags) being left to the mercy of the succubus. Making deals to keep him intact, and only being trapped for a single scene worth of smut, would be necessary.

I would very much like some writefaggotry, though.

>>36395749
You fought with your dream waifu?

What would you say would be a good summation of her personality? Could you ever make out what she was saying?

Would the furry version of this be the Benandanti (good astral projection dreamwalker werewolves) and Malandanti (evil astral projection dreamwalker werewolves) fighting each other?

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>>36398827
Maybe being forced to watch helplessly as the succubus makes passionate, wild animal love to the dreamer?

>>36399350
This actually would fit in pretty good with a The Forsaken game given its focus on managing spirits. A succubus could just be a spirit of desire overstepping to local pack restrictions.

Another idea could be a that a guy whose a closet furry being visited by a succubus catgirl in his dreams and his girlfriend is horrified to find catgirl sketches in his journal one day and decides through magic/technology/mutant power to go into his dreams and demonstrate that full girl is sexier than catgirl once and for all.

Which presents a dilemma when the girl friend's dream avatar isn't a catgirl and starts losing Interest to the catgirl succubus because of it. She has to decide whether to remain human and fight an uphill battle or turn catgirl and turn the tables.

>>36399291
it sounds like a language that doesnt even exist....complete gibberish. Sometimes she does speak some English. It usually doesnt make sense either. It is cryptic or something, and I dont really fight with her. Its more like she manhandles me. Its a dream so I just sort of naturally freak out, and I have to fight against the force that she uses to hold me down. If I manage to not freak out then I can get some pretty nice feelings from her. Energy running through my body and whatnot. Its just the way she approaches sometimes is extremely unsettling. One of my more recent experiences with her involved me laying in my bed unable to move. I couldn't see anything, but I could hear her breathing right next to me. She was standing on my left side. After a while she tried to pry my mouth open with what i guess felt like energy fingers.

>>36399644
Sounds similar to UFO abduction and angel visitation accounts.

And of course sounds like a succubus. As noted the "dream woman" is a recurring archetype.

Did she seem cold to you, like she was just using you as a toy or did she seem to have genuine warm feelings to you? Did you get the sense she liked being around you?

>>36385548
I want this.

>>36399823
I cant say she seemed cold, but she is quite forceful. hmmm.....idk if she liked me or not. I would have to try to think back to my first encounters with her. It seems she was more interested in lust more than love. Maybe somehow I accidentally fell in love, but im not sure if it goes both ways. I fell in love with someone who doesnt even exist....hehe

>>36385215
Got a link to the thread on catfights in campaigns? Sounds like a fun read.

>>36400075
Crowley said all phenomena is real in that it exist as an electro-chemical signal in the brain if that helps.

>>36400212
Sorry, don't know if it was archived.

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>>36398827
Would questfags rather play succubus or mortal? It's possible to write the story in such a way so that either of them are the "right" one for the boy.

>>36400469
you could always have story shift perspective? Change who's in charge but I dunno.

>>36399644
>After a while she tried to pry my mouth open with what i guess felt like energy fingers.

Yes "fingers".....

>>36394148
he's an old e/x/ile... an actual one
reverence to the fallen and the lost

>>36400343
ummmm how does that help

>>36400696
well sometimes she has an anatomy that isnt exactly human.

>>36400580
Break tg's heart by making them choose between two women which in some metafictional way places tg in the guy's position? I kind of like it.

>>36401021
Eh, just to say that in some substantial way your dream waifu is "real".

The next time you see her ask her if she ever has engaged in dream combat or would like to.

>>36398446
>Me!Me!Me!
Oh yes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAdVvWG8as0

>>36401187
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAdVvWG8as0

Your vid is dead. Here's a live one.

>>36401301
They're all dead jim.

>>36401168
ha...i will do that. I dont think she would really care to talk though

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>>36401187
>>36401301
>>36401343

I'm uploading a rip right now. Give me a few moments.

>>36401493
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/wv14kuirn2exdoz/mememe.flv

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>>36401422
Try talking to her. Mark Twain talked to his waifu.

Tell her its a kind of game you two could play. You create the opponent and she sees if she can take her. Maybe she will appreciate you more if she has to fight for you.

>>36401596
most times i would even try to talk to her she would just jump me right away. She doesnt need to talk i guess. Only times i hear her is when she doesnt make sense or she is trying to get my attention.

nice pic btw.

>>36401678
Then try to communicate with thoughts. Ever tried some lucid dreaming on her? The next time you see her concentrate all your thoughts on your ex gf in lingerie and see what happens. Might be interesting.

>>36394246
Have you considered that unveiling the secrets of the universe may actually not be worth it at all and that it is only something attempted by those intelligent enough to try but not intelligent enough to realise it would be lackluster?

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>>36399644
>Tried to pry your mouth open with energy fingers

Writefag here, stealing this for fiction.

Also you're turning my on.

God namefags should fuck off to where they came from

>>36402167
lol dude....idk whats up with you and trying to put my my dreamu waifu into combat. I would assume nothing would happen even if i tried, but why would i want to potentially mess up a decent thing we got going. If you had a girlfriend would you make her fight for your affection? I could maybe give ideas about how a scenario like that would pan out, but im not gonna try to do it myself. Also, my encounters with her are mostly when im lucid. Supposedly you can take control of your dream and do whatever you want, but it doesn't work out that way when she is involved.

>>36402541
hehe if you what to. Thats pretty tame compared to past experiences. however, Im not sure what im allowed to write on this board. On /x/ they didnt care so much, but idk bout here

>>36402623
>What you're allowed to write on this board.

Well, we're not /b/, but feel free to describe sexual things, painful things and acts of questionable morality or legality.

The differance is here we keep it tasteful.

>>36402439
The smarter you are the dumber you get.

>>36402661
I mean, you're locked studying compactification theories and the succubus is fucking qts around the world for shiggles and enjoying its existence.

>>36402623
>decent thing we have going
She doesn't speak to you and forces herself into your dreams. You sure you're alright? I don't mean to judge and come across like I'm suggesting a kind of internal exorcism via a dream image of your ex...though I guess I kind of am. I just think you're relationship with your waifu would be better if the power deferential wasn't so great, if you could check her power in some way with your own.

And the way you describe her sounds like she would actually like roughhousing a dream image. And remember what started this thread.

Just be careful out there. The mind is a scary place. Succubus got a reputation as soul suckers for a reason.

>>36402661
THEY DON'T THINK IT BE LIKE IT IS

BUT IT DO

>>36400469
Votes would probably lean on 'corruptible innocent' rather than 'full turboslut' but they'd happily play either if you decide for them at the outset.

>>36399644
Sounds like sleep paralysis (real phenomenon) and the mythology surrounding it.

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>>36402961
I've also experienced sleep paralysis, but for me I was totally alone when I woke up unable to move. Honestly that was much more frightening for me than any demon sitting on my chest. I opened my eyes and felt the pupils contract and get really small, and all I could see was dark and the rest of me wouldn't move.

I eventually woke myself up by shivering one muscle in my lower back for what felt like hours.

>And this nigga gets qt alien waifu? Life is bs.

>>36403013
I've had sleep paralysis before. I even had the real annoying kind where you have to remind yourself not to try to breathe because you're body is locked in autopilot. Had it in the middle of the university center hobo napping on a couch in-betweeen classes. I lucid dreamed my way out of it, but it took a few of those "dream you actually got up but really didn't" tries before I could really move.

Felt like a complete boss not succumbing to panic and staying rational. Should have had me in NOE 3. I would've wrecked Freddy's corky ass.

Wish I had a succubus dream waifu. I'm mad jelly dream anon.

Although if my demon lore is correct you really need to get the dream creature to ID itself for you. A nameless demon is a dangerous demon.

OP here. Glad to see this thread is still alive.

Was thinking about posting some WOD style writefaggotry for Succubus The Dreaming tomorrow if anyone is interested on different kinds of succubus from succubus that act like muses to succubus that actively attempt to have mortals never remember them.

Maybe even write about some dreamwalker organizations like a group of zealous nuns that see it their duty to keep dreamers human or demon from crossing over into each others dreams.

>>36402659
tasteful? It would be like writing porn, because thats basically what the experience is. Let me give an example.

One of my dreams with her she didnt appear. I could feel her energy on top of me holding me down. Then she started spawning body parts into thin air. Not a full form, but just the parts she needed. It started with hands holding down my arms. They faded away around the wrist area. Then another pair of hands held down my feet. Then a pair of lips came and kissed me, and another pair came to lick my body. Finally a pelvis came into view. It was visible from about the bellybutton to the upper leg. It appeared so it could uh....mount me.

well, im not sure if this is tasteful

>>36402820
yeah idk whats up with my mind. I guess im weird or something.

>>36402961
i became familiar with sleep paralysis when she came around. Sometimes it is similar, but im paralyzed in the dream. There are a few times where the paralysis fails and i end up moving irl (i think). She comes along and does something in the dream and it translates to real life movement. One of my more memorable ones was when she jumped on my and my whole body bounced. I woke up immediately and my body felt the impact of the bounce in my dream that i was bouncing on my bed and it woke me up. Another example is where she picked me up by my hips. My hips where moving upwards in real life. She let me go and when they bounced on the bed it woke me up.

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>>36404779
Oh it's fine. We're not prudes. Tell us more!

You said earlier that you could imagine how a dream catfight would go. This is highly relevant to my puerile interests.

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>>36404779
>idk what's up with my mind

Do any of us, really?

Sounds to me like you got an egregore anon.

The "make her fight a dream image" is just a way to counter her power over you sense direct lucid dreaming isn't working. A egregore creature of lust must be bet my an opposing image of lust. Magic must defeat magic and all that. It's not to destroy her or hurt her or anything, just to get her to calm down by redirecting some of that erotic energy she taps into, making her a little less in control and you a little more in control.

Of course maybe you don't want her to calm down. Your mind, your call. Just trying to make sure you know what all your options are.

>>36405517
This is kinda stupid, and this is me saying this even though women fighting is my own unabashed fetish.

Whats this fixation on trying to get this guy to fix up a catfight in his head against his kinky imaginary friend? Why not imagine a stern priest from catholic school? or a tiny Dr. Freud.

Going to a therapist pr psychiatric professional might be an idea too.

>>36405517
Sounds like a fun if a touch dangerous experiment.

>>36405608
>Stern priest from Catholic School or tiny Dr Freud
We don't want to totally dispel the egregore so we engage her on her level with sex rather than with anti-sex.

Exorcism was the wrong word. The catfight is spraying the hyperactive cat with a water bottle. What you're suggesting is spay and neuter to follow the analogy.

>A therapist
His kinky imaginary friend isn't actively harming him or his quality of life in any way. We're trying to improve on what anon already describes as a pretty sweet deal. A therapist is for serious problems.

>>36405789
I guess its just the shame feelings/instincts from 4 or 5 odd years in catholic school coming back to me.

There isn't a moment where I'm not somehow ashamed of myself in some way. Especially of my fetishes, which in the grand scheme of things aren't quite that bad or deep.

>>36405829
We're all horribly ashamed anon. I'm posting and contributing to a thread about women engaged in erotic combat with the anthropomorphic personification of the shaded parts of a lover's soul. If anyone knew my identity they could probably use this as effective blackmail.

It's rather appropriate considering that in the lore we're constructing a succubus can be a dreamer's outlet for shame. Have a kink that you won't--or can't tell your SO about? There's a succubus for that. Probably a good example of one of the healthier relationships one can have with a succubus.

>>36405755
Oh hush you. There's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

>>36406028
That might be an idea worth exploring.
Having something so shameful yet so enjoyable you have to hide it away, making it eat at you day by day it goes by? Hell that could be the "Soul Sucking" element. Less the succubus actually sucking the man's soul away, more the weight of shame on someone starts messing them up. The succubus is a byproduct/escape, not the cause.

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>>36406122
As stated earlier in the thread the goal is to make succubus less "vampires but with sex instead of blood" and more these unique dream creatures.

Look at it from the succubus' perspective. They don't just stumble around looking for dreams to invade. They look for the brightest ones, the ones that call for them. They view themselves as providing a necessary function for mortals. Mortals cannot live in reality alone. They need fantasy. They need the succubus.

They aren't parasites. They're symbiotes.

And then of course the catfighting starts once the female mortal barges in on the dreams and is horrified by what she sees--obviously her SO would never do something so weird and warped, the succubus MUST be FORCING him to do it!

>>36399631 describes just such a scenario with a guy with a closet anthro catgirl fetish who gets a catgirl succubus. The anthro-hating girlfriend fights back but is at a disadvantage in the dream combat unless she make the concession of turning her dream avatar into a catgirl.

>>36405459
tell you more? like what abouts? Sex and stuff?

I have quite a few that come to mind as far as that goes. One time during our first encounters she would almost appear whenever I slept. One time I was taking a cat nap in between classes. She appeared and apparently she wanted to have fun. Next thing I know she had her nether regions shoved in my face. I was forcibly, but not really, licking away. This is tame compared to what she usually does, but what makes it interesting is that I slowly slipped back into consciousness and I realized that I was licking the air. Man am I sure glad nobody was around when that was going on.

Another early experience that involved me half waking up was when I was laying in my bed at night. During the dream she was riding me. She was really really into it too. Unfortunately I prematurely woke up (lol), and in that hazy moment I felt a liquid erupt all over me. It splashed outwards from my pelvic region. It covered from my chest to my knees. I fully woke up and examined what was going on. I could still feel it on me for a second afterwards, but I didn't see anything at all. Guess that was her way of showing that she was having a good time.

As you know the experiences died down, but they became more strange and fetishy. Even for fetishes i dont have or dont care about. One quick one I remembered was she had 2 mouths working on me. One down below and one making out with me. The one making out with me had a really long tongue. She was having it go all the way down the back of my throat and into my stomach practically. Oh! that reminds me of another one. She appeared with enormous breasts one time. I'm talking impossibly big. She shoved one in my face and had me drink the milk from it. It tasted pretty good, and it made me all tingly inside. It had like a weird numbing tingle to it.

captcha: supple hlehow

>>36398827
I assumed you're only trapped for one night, and can try again the next.

>>36385326
>Just voicing my general disinterest.
Wow. Thanks.
You're a real credit to the community.
What other things don't interest you?

>>36385215

sexy, sexual, genius, female.


Well she certainly can't be good.

>>36398827
Writefaggotry would work better. With so many quests on the board at once, there's a considerable possibility yours might go unnoticed.

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What's going on in this thread?

>>36410038
Nothing much at all.

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>>36407692
Yeah. It only lasts until waking up. Which means smart dream walkers could have a friend watch them and wake them up if it looks like things are going south. The down side is that they might wake you up if you're winning an intense duel and misinterpret the strain they see as you losing.

Maybe some kind of system where the loser can roll to see if they have the mental fortitude to stand up to domination until they wake up. Failing the roll means they instantly capitulate and do whatever the winner wants.

The idea is to make losing matter to women but matter even more so for succubus. Succubus have an edge in dream combat being that they are dream creatures. The woman may be able to to bring elements from the dreamer's waking life to bear in the dream combat for a quick edge but succubus can easily adapt. The woman knows the dreamer has a leather fetish so she imagines up a leather dominatrix outfit. The next turn the succubus is just going to do the same thing.

Tapping out for a woman means sharing--not losing-a part of their soul. For instance every time she kisses her boyfriend the succubus feels it as well. It's humiliating and violating but can also galvanize the woman to try again the next night.

If a succubus loses they're pretty much fucked (ha ha). They better hope the woman that beat them is nice person, otherwise she'll make the succubus swear a vow of psychic chastity--which means basically death by slow starvation.

Of course the woman has a lot of choices. Command the succubus to be her dream slave, let if off with a warning never to enter this dream again, maybe even let the succubus do what she will in the dream just tone it down so it doesn't effect the man's waking life so much. She could even order it to be her friend...or lover.

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>>36412534
Was planning on posting some fluff and duel mechanics today but I'm swamped with term papers. Won't be free until the middle of next week at the latest.

Right now I have two chief types of succubus--paramours and liaisons. Liaisons work exclusively on the subconscious Id. Usually not remembered by the dreamer upon waking except maybe in bits and pieces. They subtly effect a dreamer's moods. Can make a person feel an excess or lack of sexual/creative energies. Or they can implant suggestive ideas. A dreamer visited by a liaison that has a history of inspiring men to take up arms in defense of their nation may suddenly find himself filled with patriotic zeal feeling deep down inside that he must treat his country like a beloved woman and defend her honor. This is similar but not exactly like >>36396254

A paramour WANTS the dreamer to remember her. This is the kind of succubus suggested by the /x/ anon and Mark Twain's Platonic Sweetheart essay. They are dream lovers and may purposefully veil themselves in a cloud of mystery or openly communicate with their dreamer. Some see themselves as therapists wanting to help their dreamers resolve sexual tension they are ashamed of. Some just want to talk and cuddle and give a poor man a few hours of peace and happiness every night where he might have nothing but loneliness during the day. Some take pleasure in creating if not physical infidelity then emotional infidelity with dreamers in committed relationships and like the feeling of "winning" a man by "beating" their mortal love. This kind may actually enter the dreams of the mortal women to challenge them to dream combat in the lover's mind.

All I got for now. What does /tg/ think about different classes of succubus? What about the idea of balancing woman vs succubus by making their losses of different degrees as in>>36413149?

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>>36414303
Oh and one more thing. We have types of succubus, but what about different "races" with special abilities?

So far I was thinking an "experimenter" type like x-/anon/'s waifu that is skilled at manipulating the "physical" parts of a a dream self. They can inflect a kind of "sleep paralysis" on their opponents and make them skip turns.

Another is a succubus that takes the form of the classic horn and tail demon or other supernatural creature like an angel or even a goddess. They can turn themselves more "abstract" and less "physical" in order to intimidate their rivals. They do this by sacrificing dreamer interest (they become more symbolic and thus less enticing) to get bonuses to their self-confidence (no one messes with a goddess!).

Should mortal women get bonuses or do you like the idea of them being at a disadvantage?

Should this be a 1x1 game or a group of dreamtroopers vs GM's threats?

As a 1x1, I think random decks can work for the dreamer, each part take 5 cards from a deck to know the dreamer's fetishes. The Lover from the Affection deck and the Intruder from the lust deck.

>>36415807
The lore of the game is geared toward intimate one on one encounters. But in theory it could work in groups. A group of women team up when they find out their husbands have been dreaming about the same woman every night. A single succubus is the BBEG and sends out dream servitors, shadows of her true self, to stall the group. An Arabian nights themed adventure could find a sultan's harem working together to fight off a group of succubus that set up home in the sultan's mind. The sultan spends all his time trapped in his room writing the stories told to him by his "muses" and neglecting running the kingdom and the harem girls have to fight the Succubi to save the kingdom.

I like the card game idea. I would like it if we could find a way to make each deck individualized though. A pure virginal waifu would have different moves than a girl into esoteric tantric stuff.

>>36416507
The deck would represent the Dreamer, not the gals. The gals would work like a common RPG character, with a sheet and rolling dice.

Using the iconic example, the Lover draws the "Lemon Cake" card (one doesn't know the others card until it is revealed) from the Love deck. She rolls (2d6, for 7, double for using a card theme) for Empowering fantasizing about being covered by cake. This adds (14 points) to the Dreamer Interest toward the Lover.

The Succubus present the Lesbian card, drew from the Lust deck of the dreamer and rolls for Submission, liking the cake from the Lover body. She rolls 2d6 for Interest, doubling because of the card use, getting a whopping 20. Also, she rolls 1d6 (x2 because of card theme) against 1d6 from the lover. This result is reduced from the Lover's Willpower. If she gets to 0 Willpower, she is reduced to a thing in the Dreamer's psyche.

At the end of this round, the Lover suffered damage to her Willpower by being subdued, and Interest has shifted 6 points (20 - 14) towards the Succubus. If interest ever reach 100 to one side, battle is over. The Dreamer has full attention on one person only.

>>36416749
Ah, I get it. I'm liking the card game mechanic more and more. The finer details will have to be smoothed out of course. The Submission action is basically the empower action with an attack against willpower added on, so I guess each round it alternates between who gets a submission attempt and who just gets to empower?

>>36418274
Still working on it. For now everything is just coming from my mind. I guess there's three clear actions:
- Empower, a self action, where you mostly deal Interest %
- Submission, an "attack" action that deals both Interest % and damage to opponent's Willpower
- Recover, to heal Willpower only. Won't be OP because you can still lose by Interest.

The Dreamer could have 3 decks:
Dreamscape: Would place the fight in some place, an apply restriction rules. E.g.: Dreamer's School.
Love: Common and silly things that normal couples do together and are used by the Lover.
Lust: Hidden desires and fetishes used by the Succubus to gain attention.

Each player (Lover/Succubus) draw 5 cards from their respective decks. The other can't see them until they are used. When put on the table, each player can use any card for its action (so the Lover could use a Lust card after it being played, if she finds a way to use the kinky in there in a loveable way), or no card at all (but with no double bonus).

As I said, all in my mind yet.

>>36418488
Defiantly liking how its shaping up, especially the mechanic where you can use any card on the table. Allows for a lot of imaginative thinking.

Hope the thread is still here tomorrow.

Can we use dream logic against the succubi?
Can we drive them into the depth of the unconscious?

>>36420679
1. Yes but it has to be erotic dream logic. The succubus is a psychic symbiote that embeds itself deep in the Id. You aren't going to find one outside a wet dream unless you're really really lucky and the succubus is really really brave or stupid.

2. If you defeat them in dream combat you can force them to do anything you want.

>>36420756
What would happen in the deepest and dakrest corner of the unconscious where demon and gods are said to lurk?

>>36420802
Catfights. Lots and lots of catfights.

Now, here's my question - what kinds of dream elements would put both combatants in danger, possibly forcing them to work together temporarily?

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>>36401493
Lolifag go away.

>>36423263
maybe the invasion of other dream beings. Perhaps like wraiths, nightmares, hypnos

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>>36418488
Maybe as a role playing element the succubus and the lover can steal cards from the opponents deck and add them to their own. For instance if the lover and the dreamer start to get into BDSM the lover can take the leather, whip, and chains cards from the lust deck and add them to the affection deck. On the other hand if the relationship between succubus and dreamer starts to become more affectionate the succubus can steal affection cards. The affection card "that torch song you sing to me" gets stolen because the succubus starts singing to the dreamer every night and the woman has been too busy irl to sing for her man.

Maybe a rule that for every three or so extra cards in your deck you get to draw one more during dream combat?

>>36423263
Nocturnal emissions.
The Dreamer's sex drive takes a major hit, weakening (and ejecting) one/both combatants unless they can gain enough power quick enough.

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>>36426403
Maybe the combatants have to fight on "low power" conditions like in FTL when you run into an ion storm.

They only draw one card (or none) and the location card isn't played. They have to fight in a nondescript dream void. Special powers may be handicapped or unusable.

Reducing a dreamer's sex drive before he falls asleep may actually be a strategy. The mortal can go on a jog or work out with her lover so that when she fights the succubus in the dream she won't be able to use that power of hers that beat her last night.

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>>36416749
>>36418488
Shaping up well. Let's see if we can get some proto-stats going

Willpower is HP. Other stats add flat numbers to rolls (adding dice would be too much).

Most stats will probably be 1-4 or 1-6 with 2 being around average.

Imagination adds to Submission attacks and Empower actions.

Self-Confidence protects from Submission Attacks and determines how much willpower is regenerated by a heal willpower action.

So to keep things rules light we only have three stats. Willpower, imagination, and self-confidence.

Maybe I'll start making some characters and we could have a proto-duel to see how everything is working.

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>>36427370
For a more rules intense game you could break imagination and self-confidence down into two smaller stats each,

Imagination becomes creativity for empower actions and forcefulness for submission attacks.

Self-Confidence becomes self-image for resisting submission attacks representing how sexy the girl thinks she is and pride for how much willpower she can regenerate representing plunk and desire not to humble herself before her rival.

So with this variant you get 5 instead of 3 stats per character.

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OP here. Thinking about starting a new thread for the proto-duel.

I think the story is going to be childhood tomboy friend and nascent girl friend vs Japanese wolf spirit in the dreams of a boyfriend recently turned hikikomori by the wolf spirit. The wolf spirit is a lonely creature (all the wolves in Japan went extinct long ago). Her kind usually visit mortals by making them feel guilt about environmental damage in the hopes other animal spirits won't become exiles like they are. Rarely do they go succubus, bus this certain wolf spirit believing desperately in a legend that say that if a person believes in a spirit with all their heart they come alive (and perhaps misinterpreting the meaning) decides that if she can win the love of a mortal she and her kind may have a chance to become real again. So she goes succubus and the guy locks himself in his room and starts writing mundane fantasy stories about wolf spirits, a clever and cute female one in particular, in an attempt to make them "real". He's lost weight. His grades are in the toilet. He's lost his job. His girlfriend is worried. And his girlfriend has an ex-shrine maiden for a mother that teaches her how to walk into the dreams of others and that spirits can sometimes possess the minds of humans...
What do you think /tg/? Too weeaboo or should we give it a shot?

>>36428601
>Just realized what pic I used for the wolf girl
>Ex shrine maiden

OH GOD

OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD

I do not intend a touhou reference honest to God.

>>36428951
The problem is that most of /tg/ probably didn't know where that was from before you said that.
Now, of course, we're legally obligated to find y our house and lynch you.

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>>36429358
I just wanted to use a cute wolf girl pic for the succubus and the shrine maiden thing was just a means to an end to get the girlfriend in the dream world.

Her mother is now one of those psychic investigators that help police to decrease the weeaboo/touhou taint. She taught her daughter psychic techniques to help her meditate and kick butt in martial arts, and now she's going to use them to kick butt in the dream world.

Thinking about using SF Makoto as pic for the girlfriend. What does /tg/ think? Thoughts, opinions, death threats?

>>36428601
If there is going to be sexual content then save it for tomorrows annual smut thread or go to the regular monster girl threads on >>jp

>>36429628
>annual smut thread
Afraid it might get drowned out, what do you think?

Either way it's just to try out the combat system, not really to tell a complete story (unless /tg/ wants a complete story write up).

I think I'll stat the characters and see if the thread has life for more.

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>>36432294
Tomboy girlfriend
Concept: Captain of schools Judo and Karate team. Protected guy from bullies sense they were kids. Sees the Succubus as just one more bully. But the fight she's going to find herself in isn't at all like the fights she's used to.

Self-image (1). As a tomboy she doesn't consider herself very attractive.

Pride (4) Isn't training to be a pro fighter because she thinks she'll lose.

A total Confidence score of (5)

Creativity (2)

Forcefulness (3)

A total imagination score of (5)

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>>36433100
Wolf spirit succubus
Concept:Longs to experience the vividness of real life outside the dreamworld. Influences dreamer to write a fantasy book series about her people living in the real world in the hope that it'll come true via sympathetic magic. Is quickly building affection for her "word weaver". Considers herself a daring a clever creature having come up with this scheme, in wolf spirit terms she's something of a princess hailing form an old and venerable blood line.

Both Tomboy girlfriend and wolf spirit succubus have lets say 15 willpower to keep things interesting.

Self Image (3) Believes it is the nature for spirits to be aesthetically pleasing regardless of the shape. As an animal, as a human, as a ray of light she knows she looks good. Ugliness is for humans.

Pride (2) Doesn't consider herself a "real being" but deeply believes she deserves to be one.

Total Confidence (5)

Creativity (3)

Forcefulness (2)

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>>36433100
>>36433573

Unless tg wants more writefaggotry I'll cut to the actual duel.

Mortal lover and Succubus both draw five cards from the love and lust deck respectively. These aren't known to each other until they're played. They double dice rolls when played and can be used off the table by an opponent afterwards. Some might have extra effects, but for now they're just bonuses.

The Succubus gets:
Long Fluffy Tail
Long Flowing Hair (isn't it sad Tomboy GF?)
School Girl Uniform
Enticing Dance
Smell of wildflowers

Tomboy GF gets
Stuffed Bear boy won for her at carnival
Boy cheering her on at martial arts tournament
Boy tying the belt of her gi just right
Foot massage
Valentines Chocolate

The dream environment card determines the nature of the dream in which they are fighting and potentially confer benefits. The dream environment is a forested glen covered in crisp Autumn leaves straight out of a fairy tale but is mechanically neutral for now to keep things simple.

>>36434247
The lover finds herself in a Autumn forest. The shade of the yellow leafed trees competes with and compliments the rays of light that break through the canopy. The sun is high but it feels like a cool twilight with a wind that rustles through the trees, through the fallen leaves, through the bushes, through the flowers, and on through the forest and out through the green and yellow curtain of a terminated horizon into...into...

Into what exactly?

The Lover didn't expect to think so much about the particulars of the dreamworld. But her mind had started to wonder after waiting so long for her prey. Where did the winds in dreams come from and where did they go? Did the same wind run through all the dreams of the world? Was there a single dream out there where all the winds collected and all the winds dispersed?

It helped her feel more at ease to think about such things rather than the fight ahead of her. She had never been in a forest in her life, let alone a dream forest and the it put her on edge. Nothing felt comfortable. Nothing was comfortable about how everything shook and flowed from the trees to the shrubs to her hair. Nothing was comfortable about the silence that made her hear herself breathe and the grass rattle. She clothed her dream avatar in all her confidence and willpower in the form of her hard worn white gi and hard earned black belt. And yet she still felt...she felt something she would never admit to herself that she did felt.

She grasped at something positive. She thought that if not mentally then physically--as much as this existence could be thought of as physical--she was comfortable. It was nice and cool and she knew how horrible it was to fight without cool air. The summer in which the school dojo's AC broke was one of the worst times of her life. And the dry leaves felt nice and soft under her bare feet.

>>36434878
They actually felt softer then the mats they used in the dojo. They were almost soft enough to be used as a-

And suddenly she did feel hot.

That monster. That creature. That animal she thought. She would make it pay.

>>36434947
Thread dying. Think I'm going to continue this on new thread.

Any comments /tg/? Should I continue or should I just go fuck off?

>>36435241
Continue!

>>36435365
As a quest thread!

>>36435409
For real or is this a candid "fuck you op"? Quest threads tend to get a lot of hate these days, although personally I wouldn't mind running this as a quest.

Would have to be be modified a little based on who /tg/ would want to play as.

>>36402961
>Sounds like sleep paralysis
No, it doesn't. The defining trait of typical sleep paralysis beyond the sleeping and the paralysis is the overwhelming primal fear experienced.

>>36435557
For real.

Thanks /tg/ I'll probably take all the yuri out of this and have it as a WOD-like game of Succubi and Inucubi being a type of human like being that can go into the dream world to fight eldritch abominations.

>>36435936
>take all the yuri out of this
You're doing evil, OP.

>>36435936
Not OP. I'm OP. I'm the poor bastard that wrote>>36433100
>>36433573
>>36434247

This game is gloriously, unashamedly magical realm for catfight fans and as many fetishes as we can stuff in the deck.

For the proto-duel story I'm actually starting to think maybe I made the cards too vanilla.