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Meant to use this quote from their holy book:

>It is a Sikh's sacred duty, without fear or anger, to defend the
weak and protect the innocent.

What's the Sikh equivalent to a paladin, anyway?

>>35453555
Sikh

"Finally the concept of the baptized Saint Soldier of the Khalsa was formed by the tenth Sikh Guru, Gobind Singh in 1699 at Anandpur Sahib.[13] Sikhs are expected to embody the qualities of a "Sant-Sipāhī"—a saint-soldier."

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>>35453555
All Sikhs are meant to be paladins.

>>35453555
The entire religion. Literally. Every single adherrent of the religion aspires to be a paladin, and from the ones I've met, they do a damned good job.

I'm a bitter, cynical douchebag of an atheist, but Sikhism is one of only 2 religions on Earth that I come close to respecting.

>>35454399
what's the other one?

>>35454399
This, I've literally never met a sikh who wasn't a bro

>>35454031
>have to carry a weapon at all times
>believe that there is no Heaven or Hell, but true paradise can be created on Earth by good deeds
>reject rituals that have no practical benefit

Damn, they really are.

>>35454415
Buddhism

>>35454415
The amazonian cannibal volcano cult

>>35453190
That's retarded.

The only way to be a righteous warrior is to die in battle? What about falling back and, you know, maybe having a chance at victory then? But oh no, let's just all die in battle and allow our enemy to have no resistance when they reach our homes, family, and friends.

>>35454581
Tactical retreat is not the same as fleeing.

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>>35453190

According to wikipedia, women and men are equal in Sikhism. Does that mean I can be w woman Saint Soldier/Paladin? Is it ok if I can't grow a beard?

>>35454581

You really didn't understand that quote.

>>35453190
>tfw mongols send drunk elephant to kill sikh fortress
>one lone sikh kills it in melee combat
MUH DICK

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>It is one of the duties of the Khalsa to fight oppression of any kind. The word in Punjabi used to depict this is "Ni'āṁ" which means justice, equity, and fair play.

>Guru Arjan was captured by Mughal authorities who were suspicious and hostile to the religious order he was developing. His persecution and death inspired his successors to promote a military and political organization of Sikh communities to defend themselves against the attacks of Mughal forces.

>Upon a child's birth, the Guru Granth Sahib is opened at a random point and the child is named using the first letter on the top left hand corner of the left page.

>Superstitions and rituals should not be observed or followed, including pilgrimages, fasting and ritual purification; circumcision; idols & grave worship; compulsory wearing of the veil for women; etc.

>Eating meat killed in a ritualistic manner (Kutha meat): Sikhs are strictly prohibited from eating halal meat from animals slaughtered in a religiously prescribed manner (such as dhabihah or shechita, known as Kutha meat, when the animal is killed by exsanguination via throat-cutting), or any meat where langar is served.

>Langar is the term used in the Sikh religion or in Punjab in general for common kitchen/canteen where food is served in a Gurdwara to all the visitors (without distinction of background) for free. At the langar, only vegetarian food is served, to ensure that all people, regardless of their dietary restrictions, can eat as equals. Langar is open to Sikhs and non-Sikhs alike.

Neat

>>35454654
No, I get it. And I understand the sentiment - those who stand their ground until the end are righteous. But a smart warrior would easily choose life (and the chance at future victory) over a death in war (unless such a thing is unavoidable)

>>35454630
Good point.

There are a bunch of cultures that have analogues to knights.

I don't know why you'd want to get rid of Arthurian knights though, Arthurian knights are fucking rad.

Just put like the Arthurian knights in and the Sikh sword-saints in and the youxia in, and the kshatriya, samurai, mamluks, etc.

>not being a Paladin of Athe

>>35454513
If this is true you're retarded.

>>35454717
>one knight
>one mameluke
>one samurai
>one sikh

Shit, mang. We got a full saturday-morning-cartoon here.

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>>35454688
What?

>>35454633
pic related, google images shows a lot of pic with women fighting

>>35454748
10/10, would watch

>>35454717
>kshatriya
That was just a Hindoo caste. Sikhs are kshatriya, most of them.

>>35454742
>If this is true you're retarded.
If you wrote this, you're retarded.

>>35454749
>What?
true story bro
>>35454633
someone post that sikh woman with a beard

>>35454748
I'd watch it.

>>35454783
>someone post that sikh woman with a beard
Oh god, please no.


>>35454748
>mameluke
Mamelukes had a doctrine too?

>>35454775
>the only religion I really respect is the one that's hipster popular in the West, which I respect because 1) either I don't know of the violent parts of its history or 2) I view giving up the essential elements of being a human being a good thing
Buddhism is a crap religion.

>>35454775
Kshatriya refers to a Hindu caste. Sikhs by definition are not Hindu, though they might hold that role in a Hindu society.

>>35454748
Who would the villain be? Some kind of gunpowder wielding fanatic with no moral code whatsoever? A loose cannon?

>>35454818
I'm Asian.

You don't seem to have a clear understanding of what it's about, but that's alright as long as your aren't judgmental.

>>35454838
Sikhism is a relatively new religion. They are Hindu and Muslim converts.

>>35454818
technically not a religion.
Sure, some people pray to buddha, but the british royal family is the official religion of an african tribe and the US military is the religion of a small island tribe they visited during ww2 somewhere.

>>35454856
Samurai and Sikhs used gunpowder a lot.

Old Montenegrin/Serbian tribal codexes have an interesting system, they recognize two core virtues that all men should pursue, "Humanity" and "Heroism". The usual explanation given is that Heroism is to protect yourself and your community from the aggression and base selfishness of others, while Humanity is to protect others from your own anger, selfishness and base impulses.

>>35454813
>Mamelukes had a doctrine too?
probably as much as knights did

>>35454858
The fundamental aim of Buddhism is anathema to me, more so than Christianity or Judaism or any of the more commonly reviled religions.

Glorantha hit the nail on the head with its version of fantasy Buddhism.

>>35454858
>Sikhism is a relatively new religion. They are Hindu and Muslim converts.
What, in the 21st century? I don't really think so m8.

>>35454941
with the fat necromancer zombie buddha?

>>35454415
It's a local 'pagan fusion' cult/group that basically threw out most of the actual mysticism and uses Gaia and Thor as an excuse to plant trees, buy food for homeless people, and get drunk on weekends.

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>>35454974
>Absolutely argr

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>>35454633

One of their saints is Mai Bhago, a woman who fought and led soldiers.

Yes, that would be fine. The requirements are the same for males and females; both should carry the Kirpan (a bladed weapon, from a small dagger to a full-on scimitar,) in order to defend the innocent should the need arise. Both should have Kesh (uncut long hair) which naturally includes a beard for men (the men also have long head hair, usually bound up in a knot in their turban.) The fact that women don't have beards isn't an issue; the rule is basically that you don't cut the hair you have, whatever hair God created for you.

The other three ritual things are the Kangha (a comb, keep yourself well-groomed,) Kara (circular iron bracelet; "life neverending" and "you are a link in the chain",) and Kachara (a pair of shorts worn as underpants, sleepwear, etc. Both to symbolize chastity, and, more awesomely, to symbolize that the Sikh is ready for battle at any time. Attack while they're asleep, they're already dressed and will jump right out of bed to cut you to pieces.)

>>35454969
With zombies as the enlightened ones, sure. Rejecting worldly influences means not actually living.

>>35454749
>The men have trimmed beards
Oh, woe is me. They suck at Sikhism.

>>35455003
thats the joke

>>35454918
I know the Knights' Chivalric code was inspired by the Crusaders trysts with Salauddin's forces, are you referring to those?

>>35454941
There is no fundamental aim of Buddhism other than attaining enlightenment.

Let me put it this way:
Abrahamic religions try to enforce an order on to the world by whereby law is considered the solution to humanity’s problems.

In eastern religions, life is not a problem to be solved. It is to be observed and thought upon.

>>35454961
Like 400-500 years old.

>>35454912

Oh, that's kinda cool. Any more info on this, places to look it up?

>>35454862
>technically not a religion.

most technical definitions of religion don't define it in terms of prayer.

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>>35455016
>trimmed beards
No, it's a style of tying up the beard with a thread.

>>35455031
fuck, who knows?
I dont know much about the sandpeople and their way of war.

>>35455077
Why did you mention Mamlukes then?

>>35455061
point here was that there is no god in buddhism. not really.
But some people still act like buddha is a god

>>35455092
cus it would be cool?

>>35455120
But you don't know much about them.

>>35455096
>point here was that there is no god in buddhism.
You're wrong about that.

>>35454399
look into bahai. Also pretty cool.

>>35455137
That religion is pretty much Avatar: The Last Airbender's story.

>>35454994

Awesome! I don't really know anything about Sikhs. I think rping an exotic "paladin" from a far away land could be fun. Might be a good idea to look up some eastern sounding bits of wisdom to share with the party sometimes, as long as it doesn't get to stereotypical.

>>35455096
most technical definitions of religion don't define it in terms of gods either

>>35455135
>But you don't know much about them.
yeah, but they kicked mongol ass at some point and took over their own lands, so they must have been hardcore.
and they probably had some bullshit honour code. most warriors do, cus they dont like to admit "we're only in it for the rape and plunder" like the nords or the mongols.

>>35454994
>Kara (circular iron bracelet; "life neverending" and "you are a link in the chain",)
My Sikh pal said that the kara is basically like handcuff, meant to always remind a Sikh to not do something unseemly or malicious.

>>35455135
>You're wrong about that.
Dont think I am, mate.

>>35455031
Whilst following the laws of the religion in order to attain enlightenment.

>>35454713
>No, I get it. And I understand the sentiment
I'm not sure you do.

A warrior's chosen death, both for himself and for others. A smart warrior "choosing life" is just confused, and wreaking a great deal of harm in his confusion. Prolonging the conflict for a chance at future victory places more importance on the victory than the lives at stake.

You'd make a TERRIBLE paladin, anon.

>>35455247
there's nothing about enlightenment in current abrahamic faith, bro.
Might have been a long long time ago and maybe still in some obscure offshoots though.

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>>35455218
Mamluke just means "slave". And the peoples we're talking about, Arthurian knights and Sikhs had they're entire cultural and for the latter, religious, foundation on honor and service, so I'd say it's more than just a code.

>>35455245
We have a pretty deep mythology, the things some people don't know is that Buddhism is composed of various schools of philosophy. The Japanese people follow a sect of Buddhism where they have more than one Buddha, there are also many which follow various mythologies like Tibetan Buddhism.

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>>35454713
>But a smart warrior would easily choose life (and the chance at future victory) over a death in war (unless such a thing is unavoidable)
It's talking about cowardice and bravery not tactical retreats and banzai charges.

Shit like pic related.

>>35454485
They have also one strong point. They are the only truly monoteistic religion. No "sacred trio", no "saints", no "special treatment" bullshit or "almighty god and his whole stuff of support". Just one god and principles designed to keep it that way. And they got extra points for that, since the religion is from India - the last place that is able to uphold religious dogmats and principles clean and monoteistic.

>>35454581
Giving it in layman terms, since original is beyond your comprehension - it's about putting resistance so fierce and being always brave enough to man up your enemies that people will flee by sole sentence "we are going to fight Sikhs today". You would be surprised how much it managed to achieve IRL.

>>35455819
Technically they do have 'saints'.

>>35454775
Sikhs by DEFINITION denounce caste system, since all men and women are equal and God knows no gender, race, caste or religion. So they simply can't be kshatriya.

>>35455889
>You would be surprised how much it managed to achieve IRL.
Sauce.

>>35455962
Every Sikh is supposed to be one, some are just better known than others.

>>35454961
Depending how and what you will count, it's no older than 500 years. So it's a relatively new when compared with religions in it's backyard - even islam is much older than sikhism

>>35455979
Are you Sikh?

>>35455169
Believe me, you can't get stereotypical with applying Sikhism. I always wondered how the fuck the sole archetype of paladin is not a Sikh - it's basically a walking, breathing, eating and ass-kicking lawful good (while not lawful stupid) paladin IRL.

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>>35456067
What about dervishes, do they come under the paladin archetype as well?

>Many dervishes are mendicant ascetics who have taken a vow of poverty, unlike mullahs. The main reason they beg is to learn humility, but Dervishes are prohibited to beg for their own good. They have to give the collected money to other poor people.

>>35455137
>Bahai
>Religion

Yeah, no.

>>35453190
In Chinese Folklore there was the Youxia, basically a wandering hero who went around righting wrongs.

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>>35456114
>Yeah, no.

how do you figure?

>>35456114
>Youxia
Didn't have a code.

>>35455981
... they still exist, after being both prosecuted and actively hunted down, with military expeditions to put them down. They didn't just preach to be badass - they repealled everyone and everything that was trying to bring them down. It requires nothing more than basic history knowledge about India to know that. It reached the point where they were one of the most desired soldiers to use by British, because they knew they wouldn't have to train Sikhs nor muster to get fighting force out of them and the reputation will help nicely. And that it's better to leave them alone instead of entering local powerplay against them.

>>35456184
>founded in 1844

Religions have the excuse of being founded in antiquity to explain their craziness. This shit happened only 200 years ago. The founder also considered himself a prophet of god and passed this down to his son.

Bahai is a cult, pure and simple.

>>35455962
But they do not pray to them nor pay them any special tribute. It's not like prayer to St. Jude Thaddaeu when you are in deep shit (in case if you don't know - patron saint of hopeless cases)

>>35456109
Dervishes use misticism and are more about lawful neutral/truly neutral - they mostly ignore world and it's problems. Sikhs by definition stand against injustice and the wicked.

>>35454961
hes kinda sorta half Right? its like 400-500 years old, formed out of pissed off farmers and ex-men-at arms Suffering heavy taxes and opression under The Muhgals/Timurds and other Hindu Rulers.

>>35456268

At the risk of being a real edgelord, the line between cult and religion is pretty damn vague. There will always be people who claim whatever faith in question is one or the other. Occasionally in the same sentence.

For the sake of a dumb thread about imaginary paladins and real life faiths that could inspire such a warrior, I think a relatively modern cult/religion whatever is perfectly acceptable.

Now on that note: Scientology Paladin. Fund it.

>>35456021
No, I'm not. The only contact with the religion was translated (yeah, I know, it's forbidden to translate them) scriptures and texts about the religion written from different perspective.
I know where is this going - that theory and practice don't mix well. But still on theoretical ground, if some religion outright states something is bad/forbidden/denounced, it makes a hell lot of a difference when the issue is ignored/out of concern

>>35456268
>Bahai is a cult, pure and simple.
as opposed to the other religions.
right.

>>35456268
and cults aren't religions now? since when? a category within a category is still part of the larger category.

>>35456278
Patron saint of policemen, as well. 'Course, you're not praying to the saint for help, you're invoking them to keep an eye on you to better inspire you to hold up to their example of living within the tenets of your shared religion.
You're not good with the difference between venerating saints and worshipping gods, are you?

>>35456348
>Scientology Paladin. Fund it.
Hah hah, I see what you did there!

>>35456348
Not the original guy jumping over Bahai, but I have a question. Doesn't it preach pacifism? Maybe I just confused it with something else, but if not - how can you be a paladin with hard-coded pacifism? Because the definition of paladin still stands "doing the right shit and kicking asses when time comes", not just "doing the right shit"

>>35456415
Nah, that was just a joke from "Untouchables". Archangel Michael is patron of policemen.
I know how this shit works in practice, I'm Catholic from Poland. The sole fact you have churches build under the name of saint is a blasphemy... and normal, common thing to do, because that's how the tradition works - the integral part of Catholic faith. In other words - a lot of shit in practice is contradicting all the stuff that the doctrines state. So I don't consider it a problem with differing between venerating saints and worshipping gods - it's the whole religion that have this problem.

>>35456425

Me either, and I have no fucking idea. Sorry.

>>35456510
It's the difference between the people who wrote the book(s), and the way the common people like to practice religion.

>>35456510
Continuing
In the same vein we have "Holy Trio" and Virgin Mary. Please tell me what's monoteistic in having 4 different beings toward whom you are praying DURING your mass - not you, as a person, but a priest and the whole crowd, as part of the statutory mass.
And this goes for all those "monoteistic" religions all over the world - here some prophet, there some ascendet person, that additional script added under political pressure and so on.
But that's my purely personal perception. I'm no theologician (but that's judging religion vs other religions and why the one you believe is better) nor sociologist of religion. Just my perception on the subject after familiarizing myself with thesis of sizable chunk of religions and being practising Catholic

>>35456569
Yeah, but barely any of those religions actively forbid followers to create such misconceptions. That's where Sikhism shines

>>35456613
The trio is parts of the whole, aspects of a single concept.
You are Anon the Catholic, Anon the child, and Anon the player of whatever game brings you to /tg/, but they're all the same person.

Mary is straight idolatry though.

>>35456268
Only difference between 'cult' and 'religion' is the number of adherents. Not age. Ten guys in a small town saying that their burgers magically become the meat of a dragon when they pray and that it makes them better lovers? Cult. One hundred thousand people saying the same thing? Religion. There's no functional difference except the size of the membership list.

>>35456510
Actually, we're both wrong. Jude's not patron saint of policemen, nor was it just a joke from the Untouchables. He is, in fact, patron saint of the Chicago Police Department. ... lost cause, indeed...

>>35456613
But the Holy Trinity isn't three different beings, it's three aspects of one being. As for the Marion tendencies of the polish, that has a lot of complicated history behind it stemming in part from the way saints are venerated and how often poland has had need to invoke the Mother of Mercy, what with being next door to a bunch of different imperious warrior cultures.

>>35456704
Yo-ho, we managed to cut the monoteism into duoteism. Close enough.
Sarcasm aside, it's bogging me since I was a child and learned the term "monoteism" and it's meaning. How can any of religions claim to be monoteistic, if they allow any form of idolatry or outright cult of objects.

>>35456805
Nice to know. So CHPD got own patron saint? It spoiled what I was always watching as a joke in the film.

I really don't need a history lesson why and how it works out this way in my country - that's what you are learning in elementry school. We are also learning the simple effect getting Christianised have on local variety of your Catholicism. The latter you joined the pack, the more things are adjusted to get all your local, pagan traditions sorted out and fitted into Catholicism. This way we have Mary, but Latin America has countless saints AND Mary on the same level of idolatry

>>35456192
They have a rough code, but it's not a Lawful one. It's closer to Neutral Good.

>>35456948
More like Chaotic Good.

>>35456848
>>35456933
Saints aren't prayed *to*, one addresses saints to request they put a word in with the G-dog.
Mary won't save your kid, but she'll ask her husbandson to.

>>35457086
That's the theory. The one attatched to already practised idolatry. Catholicism has a bad habit of introducting new doctrines after they are already practiced. Unless of course they are small and radical - then they are hunted down.

>>35456967
Sometimes; youxia are supposed to be outside the law and uproot corruption (and even Paladins do that, the whole "evil laws must be overthrown" thing), but they also suggest breaking it when you need to just if it's problematic because you are "outside" the concerns of normal life.
At the same time filial piety and loyalty to your master/sect/clan/cult/whatever is EXTREMELY stressed because well, we're still talking about a society with a basis on Confucian shit so that's still there.
Often the conflict of being loyal to a corrupt master and needing to do justice and expose his corruption is a recurring thread in wuxia stories.
I feel it's unfair to put youxia up here with knights and sikhs; they're almost completely fictional and their code is made up entirely by popular fantasy authors, while chivalry and bushido and the like are actual things that people sometimes tried to follow (though how successful they were probably varies quite a bit).

>>35457086
>Common title of prayers "TO St. Someone"
Right... Obviously someone titled them wrong. In official prayer book. I know what's the intention behind them, the whole feudal bullshit of not being good enough to ask God directly, so you need a messanger, but when the official prayer itself is obviously adressing the saint(s) and their direct intervention - something went wrong

>>35457153
That's exactly why chaotic suits them better than neutral. They do what should be done, often balancing on the line between outright evil deeds

>>35457187
Let's just go to the Hail Mary.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death
Amen

That's asking for her to put in a good word for you. To explain why this is done, let's go back a bit.


According to older Catholic thought, after someone dies they spend a time in Purgatory, where they wait for a while to atone for their sins before going to heaven. It was believed that if one prayed for someone in Purgatory, they would get out of Purgatory faster. Thus some people(nobles/merchants) hired monks to pray for their dead relatives so they could get into Heaven lickity split. It was also believed that the more pure the person who said the prayer, the more effective it was. Mary and the various Saints were about as pure as you can get. Thus, they are asked for intercession, that they might speed the way through Purgatory.

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>>35456268
in traditional use, the term "cult" just refers to a system of ritual practices existing within a religion. in this sense you have the greek "mystery cults" or "hero cults", for example, and the term isn't used in a negative sense.

the way you're using the term was established by american christians as a way of denigrating rival religious movements, and basically means "a religion we don't like". the only "academic" citation I can find that refers to the bahai faith as a cult was a book written by a baptist minister in the 60s, who defined a "cult" as "a group of people gathered about a specific person—or person's misinterpretation of the Bible", intended to warn christians about the dangers of various new religions.

in sociology the term "cult" was used to refer to certain kinds of new religious movement, but there was never a universally accepted definition and the term has gone out of vogue because it was such a buzzword. in any case, this usage was neither negative nor mutually exclusive with being a religion, nor is the bahai faith described as such by sociologists. pic is from a sociology textbook that explains the concept more fully.

>>35457219
That'd not right though.
Anyone who actually goes and reads a wuxia novel or watches a series will tell you that.
The problem is the whole "Wulin" concept I think; there's no real analogy to it in Western fantasy.
Example; the vast majority of villains, plots, enemies, and threats do NOT come from China in wuxia storied, but the wulin, and usually China itself seems to outright ignore the existence of youxia; a lot of the time the only characters who interact with wuxia heroes are criminals and law officers, and never are they REGULAR law officers, but officers who specialize in the Jianghu, and almost everyond is okay with this illogical setup.
There's no real analogy in the Western-style faux-Tolkien sword and sorcery setup.

>>35457311
I wish the prayers I want to quote were in English - they are quite untranslatable.
Let's put it on a round-back way. I understand all those doctrines. Heck, I follow them. I understand from where they came and how most of them originated. But that all doesn't mean I take them as they are, without thinking of their impliactions nor how they are practised. Nor the wording in Polish or outright the whole prayers. The old parson always joked that few centuries ago I would be a great material for philosopher and few more - for a heretic on stake

>>35457516
A really weird example; there's a character in one wuxia story who is basically a serial rapist.
Law officers basically walk right by and ignore him and there's no attempts by any officials to catch him because "he's part of the Jianghu".
Meanwhile the incredibly traditional and hidebound main character is encouraged by law officials to catch him because he IS part of the Wulin, thus as a Chivalrous Hero his duty is to capture the guy.
I think it was originally authors way of having characters who would buck the system without ACTUALLY openly having them buck the system, because writing fiction about that in China can get you arrested under suspicion for seditious activities.
There's one villain who's entire arc is suspiciously akin to Mao's takeover of China and with heavy implications that this is a BAD THING, but because it's veiled there's no real fallout on the author's head.

>>35456933
well, here in colombia we have a black jesus, so there's a place for every level of sacrilege in latin america

>>35457516
I dont speak no chinese.
Please help me understand...

>>35457516
No, I understand that, churmed my fair share of wuxia in the past, so I agree with almost all you stated now. For me it's more about definition of neutral and chaotic good and how they work in practice.

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Or you can make them cynical and pragmatic knights templar. God damn I just love this pic.

>>35457608
That's why I always find wuxia so entertaining. The self-imposed censorship. No-one is saying that the system, regardless if imperial, republican or communistic is corrupt, incompetent and nepotistic. But the story can only happen in such situation. There is of course the "self-regulating" nature of Chinese philosophy, so it's also much more natural that some virtuous person will take matter in own hands instead of dispatching direct officials or soldiers.

>>35457715
>Sikhs
>Knights templar
This bullshit is so strong it could only get worse by applying Hindu assassins.

>>35457763
No, I was replying to the first line in OP, the "always having to use arthurian legends" as far as paladins go. I'm not talking about sikhs at all, which was OP's proposal for an alternate paladin.

>>35457802
Oh, this way. Now it makes much more sense. But can really a cynical knight templar pass as paladin? I mean paladin that uphold some religious rules, regardless if bad or good. If he's cynical and pragmatic, can he still do that?

>>35457619
The Wulin ("Martial Brotherhood") is a concept in wuxia (kung-fu fantasy) where warriors and martial artists all exist in a separate society with it's own rules and culture that exists alongside in semi-secret with normal Chinese society. Think like wizards in Harry Potter, but with kungfu.
It's the reason why in so many stories like that all these different warriors seem to know or have heard of each other even if nobody else has; if you're not a youxia, you're not "in the know" about the comings and goings of the Wulin.
The Jianghu (sometimes translated as "World of Martial Arts" or "the Underworld", like in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon") is the "geography" so to speak of this fictional sub-culture existing in wuxia stories.
It's also why most Western adaptions of kungfu stuff usually aren't very good; they fail to grasp that most of the shit that happens in wuxia is "outside" of normal life, not a part of it, and that's a key feature in the concept.
>>35457646
I suppose.
I generall default to "personal code" rather then external law, because then how can a Lawful character be Lawful if he's in an untamed unclaimed wilderness with no civilization to speak of except for small hamlets with no agreed upon law?
But that's such an old boring argument, the Lawful thing I mean.
>>35457717
It's also kind of a thing in most wuxia stories where the NORMAL law of the land always seems to be utterly corrupt or totally useless, so the Laws of the Wulin (loose and unregulated as they are) are the only kind that ever functions in-story.

>>35457488
>written by a baptist minister
>who defined a "cult" as "a group of people gathered about a specific person—or person's misinterpretation of the Bible"

"Hey, Kettle!"
"... what is it, Pot."
"YOU'RE A FUCKING NIGGER. NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER! FIFTY YEARS AGO WE'D HAVE YOU UPSIDE DOWN WITH A FUCKING FORK UP YOUR ASS!"
"... I hate you, Pot."

>>35457902
>If he's cynical and pragmatic, can he still do that?
Yes, certainly. Characters like that tend to always be sure in their fate, but doubtful in themselves and the world. There's a character in fallout: new vegas called Joshua graham who embodies this, and has been extremely well recieved because of it.

>>35457956
And that's why I don't even want to start the discussion about defining what those two terms mean. Let's just assume that for me it's chaotic and for you neutral. Ta-dam, problem solved without pointless and lenghty discussion

>>35457902
You know what?
In real life the most decent people I've ever known are always extremely cynical. They don't ever believe their actions will ever truly matter, and whatever wide-eyed idealism they've had seems so shot to hell by reality that they just have this downbeat, somber mood about everything that happens.
They still act consistently decent and go out of their way to help people who need it because even if they think it's a doomed effort it is STILL an effort worth making.
A man or woman who can look all the bullshit on Earth right in the eyes and then look back at themselves and recognize their own limitations but STILL do the good thing consistently are in many ways more inspiring to me then the guy who genuinely thinks he can save the world.

>>35458087
Honestly I'd judge youxia entirely on the Chaos-Neutrality-Lawful axis in fact, each depending on person and sect.
Like you could find Lawful Evil youxia (evil mentor, leads his clan, promotes order....order totally outside the normal social order of China, yes, but Order in the Wulin), and Chaotic Neutral youxia.
I think that's fairer because it almost seems to me that in most wuxia plots the part where it's technically supposed to actually take place in Chinese history comes as an after thought, so China's laws never really come into play.
Wuxia is such a pleasantly strange genre.
I keep hoping ONE excellent Western work will someday tackle it with full intention of being faithful to the source and not just borrowing visual elements of it to look cool.

>>35458095
..and this is how a likeable paladin should be played.
> "I don't enjoy killing, but when done righteously, it's just a chore, like any other. Practiced hands make for short work. And the good Lord knows there's much to be done here."

>>35458095
There is a clear difference between cynism and existentionalism. You are talking about the latter, while using the name of the first.

>>35458192
I played a Paladin once that was rather the opposite; just really sunny and friendly all the time. I think he was a Paladin of that Forgotten Realms sun deity, Lathender.
But he was just a really nice guy all the time and very bright and helpful and occasionally would get REALLY hammy when fighting evil, shouting shit about the cleansing light of the sun and it was a pretty amusing change from his otherwise not-especially-serious personality.

>>35458352
I always percieve paladin archetype as made upon "good is not soft" ideology. It's not about some grumpy fuck t that will be jaded or some lawful stupid moron who will smith things out of frenzy. No, a decent, soft-spoken person that will cut your head clean off if you will do something that is against code of the paladin. And then get back into helping old ladies crossing the street

>>35458435
Kinda Captain America-ish at times I think.
Cap is...rather calm and soft-spoken. But holy shit whenever he says anything there's like this perfect conviction behind it.

>>35458491
I don't know, superheroes aren't the thing I have even rudimentry knowledge about.

>>35453190
This is an even better idea than playing an old-testament style judgement-deliverin' evil-smitin' passage-recitin' LN paladin of Yahweh. Good show, OP.

>>35454693
So you're telling me that on top of not having shitty rituals and superstitions meant to brainwash people; when they have parties, they leave out vegetarian food so everyone can eat?
That's pretty damn bro tier.

>>35454520

They really do raise some compelling arguments when you sit down and think about it.

Who knew cannibalism could solve so many of society's problems?

>>35458216
Cynicism isn't a philosophy, it's a perspective.

>>35458932
It's more like running a free diner shelter thing than giving off what remained from your own meal.

>>35454713
>those who stand their ground until the end are righteous
>until the end

Well actually that's not what it says. Though I'm sure fighting till your last breath is even more admired, the quote simply compels you to continue fighting if you have been wounded or dealt a blow, and not to run at the first scratch or 5.

>>35459048
You know nothing, Jon Snow.
And the anon was right - it's description of existentionalism labelled as cynism. It's like confusing taco for Italian food.

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>>35454749
If you think a single man skewering a drunk war elephant while horseback is hardcore, you should read up on the 21 Sikhs. They were so hardcore they have an entire holiday dedicated to them.

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>>35454994
Sikhs are sounding more and more awesome by the minute. I might steal some of this for sure.

>>35455031
>>35454918

The Azat nobility in the classical (Roman-era) kingdom of Armenia could probably be considered the prototype of the medieval knight.

>>35458932
Well, not quite.
At their temples they give out only vegetarian food purely so everyone can eat (because of so many indian vegetarians), but they're not bound to be meat free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_in_Sikhism
>The first Sikh Guru—Nanak Dev—said it was pointless to debate the merits of either not eating or eating meat in the context of religion, as maintaining a strict diet does not make one blessed or elevate one to a superior status over another, spiritually or otherwise.[17] Being a member of a religion incorporates not only one's dietary customs, but the entire way in which devotees govern their lifestyle.[18] He advocated a lifestyle consisting of honest, hard work and humility, focus and remembrance of God, and compassion for all of humanity. These three key principles take precedence over one's dietary habits.

>>35455059
It's called choistvo. In essence bravery, heroism and successes in battle are worthless unless you protect others from yourself.

>>35454693
>>Superstitions and rituals should not be observed or followed, including... compulsory wearing of the veil for women
The dudes seems to be wearing compulsory turbans

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>>35453190

My first thought, Final Fantasy Tactics Paladin was a bit mold breaking.

>>35460091
if im not mistaken, thats more a case of it being a symbol of being a sihk rather then it being an actual required thing. they could if they wanted just have a ponytail.

>>35461295
the turban is obligatory if i'm not mistaken

>>35462363

You are mistaken. It's commonly worn, in the same way that Americans commonly wear t-shirts, but it's not one of the required things. The required things are:

>Don't cut your hair (beard included if you're male)
>Carry a comb (and keep yourself well-groomed)
>Wear your iron bracelet
>Wear your dagger or sword
>Wear your undershorts

>>35462607

>Wear your dagger or sword
Fun note: a lot of Sikhs in the US in states that prohibit them from carrying knives have instead simply updated the doctrine to allow concealed carry pistols as an acceptable slternative.

>>35464421
There's a reason Sikhs are known to be based. They're not caught up in the specific wordings, it's the intent that matters.

>>35462363
It's not mandatory, but in the Punjabi culture it has great significance. Exchanging them is a form of fraternization, giving it as a gift is a form of utmost respect (that's why those cool old sikhs have such highly decorated ones) etc. I can imagine that in other countries they could have other headgear or no headgear whatsoever (remember, they are agains mandatory headgear for women like those christian women wear).

>>35462607
Also, all those material things have no significance by themselves, they are symbolizing the main tenets and principles of sikhism. That's why some sikhs wear miniature dagger-shaped amulets etc. That's not okay with most of the traditionalists but any religion evolves over time.

Apparently turbans are good armor from slashing blows.

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>>35465396
If we're talking about fantasy sikhs they could have armored turbans.

>>35465396
Turbans are extremely thick bundles of cloth, and heavy padding like that is pretty tough to cut through all in one blow.

>>35454399
>neckbeard redditors worship sikhs
Fucking hilarious, these guys are even more violent and genocidal than hindus

>>35456298
Yea, but the Dervishes are also supposed to not keep any material possessions, and give away all their earnings to the poor.

>>35456718
Not to nitpick, but other things that would differ religions from cults is a level of consistency and orthodoxy.

Almost every religion started out as a cult at one point or another, it takes a level of consistency and progression (and numbers) for a cult to achieve a full blown religion status rather than simply spawning dozens of other off-shoot cults.

>>35465599
>Sikh
>genocidal

Sure, if you classify "genocide" as "resistance to highly invasive, violent religious groups".

>Hindu

Way to really drive the comparison home. Past antiquity, violent Hindustani movements can be counted on one hand.

It cracks me up how some people think cynicism and idealism are opposites. Remember where Diogenes was coming from - he was EXTREMELY idealistic and attacked society precisely because it didn't live up to his incredibly lofty ideals.

(If paladins can be dedicated to ideals rather than deities, I'm requesting a Cynic Paladin. Or maybe a cynical Paladin of Hercules.)

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>>35465599
>>35465788

That reminds me.

I'mma roll up an Aghori Sadhu themed CN cleric.

>Cover self in crematory ash
>Smoke hella Opium
>Attain Moksha by becoming inured to earthly corruption by wallowing in it
>Ritual cannibalism and consumption of human waste
>Still gives really good down-to-earth advice

>>35462363
No, it isn't. Long hair is, but turbans aren't.

Literally any culture could have a paladin set. I personally want to do a dnd game set in a fantasy Russia. So peasants, tsars, great monsters to the north and evil armies invading from the south. Would be dope.

>>35454912

While we're talking about tribal warrior ethics (not sure how much it can really overlap with paladins but it sure as hell isn't barbarians either), Yukaghirs in Siberia have this concept of nyalle, which is sometimes translated as "sin". It's kinda more complex than that though. Effectively it amounts to "avoidable killing". For instance, if you're fighting someone, even in self-defense, and you could win without killing him - then to kill him would be nyalle all the same. Yukaghir warriors still had to kill people they could avoid killing sometimes, for instance to better protect their tribes, but they believed it sullied a man, no matter how good his reasons. Thus, when a younger warrior who has not yet committed nyalle and an older, "tainted" warrior would fight someone, the older one would usually kill the enemies when necessary to keep the younger one pure for as long as possible. One of their greatest heroes was known simply as the Sufferer, because he had to take so many lives in the defense of his tribe. Of course, it was also believed that the Sun hated those who killed, no matter their reasons, and would eventually destroy them; and that the Earth would not bear such a one for too long either, no matter how penitent.

The Yukaghirs were very, very few and utterly unique in their attitude to life - completely at odds with the Chukchi, their most prolific enemies, who valued their own and their enemies' lives seemingly not at all. Chukchi would butcher enemy families and kill themselves to avoid admitting defeat (NOT to wash away shame like the samurai; suicide was for them a sign of defiance); Yukaghirs would generally spare their enemies as much as possible. Perhaps for this reason they were considered the finest warriors by all their neighbours, no matter how ferocious and fierce the Chukchi were.

>>35466274
>north
>south
>not east, all of them

Also, which time period? Kievan Rus is hella different from Muscovy, and 16th century is different from 17th. 18th century fantasy Russia could be really cool, especially considering how bizarre St. Petersburg was already, but maybe not what you're looking for.

Remember when those Sikhs blew up that plane?

>>35466629
Remember when every religion ever had a sect that blew up something for some reason?

>>35466716
Yes actually

>>35466716

Explosions and political violence are what TRULY brings us together, brothers.

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>>35454856
Pic related.

>>35454994
> chastity
And like that you've lost me.

Guys, guys! What about... VIKING PALADINS?!

>>35466939

No.

(Would Jomsvikings count?)

>>35466939
>Raider
>Rapist
>Paladin
One of these things is not like the other

>>35466984
Yeah, Charlemagne's knights were probably too rich to bother raiding.

>>35456510
>>35456613

Intercession of the Saints is not worship.

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If Sikhs are so badass why did they get their shit kicked in?

>The 1984 anti-Sikhs riots or the 1984 Sikh Massacre were a series of pogroms directed against Sikhs in India, by anti-Sikh mobs. There were more than 8,000 deaths. Rioters murdered and raped, having gotten access to voter records that allowed them to mark Sikh homes with large Xs, and large mobs were bused in to large Sikh settlements.

>>35467188
Curry detected

>>35466432
Oh god, tell us more.

>>35467188
Overwhelming numbers, i'm guessing.

>>35467234

I could after I take care of some things. Would you rather hear about Yukaghirs or Chukchi?

>>35467311
Yukaghirs sound more unique.

>>35467331
that's a depressing way of phrasing it

Norse Mythology could provide some deep inspiration. And I don't mean Thor or Loki.

Paladins of Odin, Tyr, or Ullr could all be deities worthy of a Paladin.

I'm sure some Egyptian Gods could be workable too.

Unfortunately, no Greek Gods would be worthy to to their constant dickishness and bullshit. The Roman versions might work however, they were on the whole a lot more bad ass

>>35467355
I'm not sure what to say here, they are the people who would serve as a better inspiration for me in games.

>>35467366

Again, why not Herakles? The Cynics thought he was worthy of following, and they had high standards.

>>35466939
Viking paladins are norsesmen who have found employ elsewhere.

Or Colonization age warriors who follow gods other than Odin, Thor, or Loki.

>>35466432
Yeah, I seem to remember reading that Chukchi prisoners of war during the 17th/18th century Russian conquests would kill each other in confinement, because they preferred death to captivity. Their native neighbors actually begged the Russians to do something about them, but the Russian expeditions sent to subdue them tended to end up defeated and massacred.

They were the only RFE native group that Russia actually signed a treaty with, and remained pretty much autonomous all the way until Soviet collectivization finally crushed their traditional culture.

>>35466962
>(Would Jomsvikings count?)

No, because they were a mercenary organization. Presumably a paladin doesn't sell his services to the highest bidder.

>>35468141
>No one said justice was free.

>>35467311
i kind of want to hear about the chukchi

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>>35467331

The Chukchi might be cool antagonists though. But stuff on their warrior traditions is easier to find, relatively speaking - at least in Russian. I stumbled upon Yukaghir stuff by accident and would never have even heard of them otherwise. There's like 1600 of them left, though it used to be around 400 in the 1950s.

Anyway. While I was looking up other things, I remembered that the Sufferer IS that older warrior in the example I mentioned. Once they were fighting the Chukchi (they started it) and happened to mortally injure one of them. The Chukcha saw that he could not win and asked them to finish him off (as he would not accept defeat but was too injured to kill himself properly as he would like). They agreed to do this, but killing a helpless foe (though justified - he was still their enemy and still refused to abandon his hostility to them) would certainly be nyalle. The Sufferer then said to the other one that he (the younger man) was lucky to have made it this far without nyalle, while the Sufferer already did many times; so he may as well do it again.

>>35468173
>mercenary
>justice

There's a difference between "I am paid for my services" and "I will fight for pretty much anyone who gives me money."

>>35454419
That's basically the rule of the religion: be a bro, and don't put up with others being d-bags when you can do something about it.

>>35468294
What else do you know about the Sufferer?

>>35468173
'The price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance, plus 10.75 an hour and expenses.'--Nodwick

>>35467538
I wasn't considering Herakles / Hercules a God. He'd work though certainly.

>>35467331

The most famous Yukaghir warrior and the subject of their greatest epic cycle (which survives in many different versions) is Idilvey, though arguably an even better example of their ethos is another character who shows up in his stories, a warrior named Peldudie, which means simply Old Man. He was so named because he was very short and so seemed like a wizened old man even when young; but also because he was very wise. He did not wish to commit nyalle but reasoned out that if he lived among people, he would be dragged into it. If his own tribe started a war with someone else, he would either have to kill (and killing in an unjust, avoidable war also counts as nyalle - certainly if you're skilled enough to avoid it) or to avoid the war and thus betray his tribe - either way he would've had to act against his conscience.

So when he was old enough, Old Man took his two wives and moved away from the tribe to an inhospitable land. He moved from place to place. Few people could have survived like this, without the tribe's help, but he was such a great and agile hunter that he could pull it off and become a legend in his own right, eventually becoming an actual old man.

Idilvey was another man from the same Yukaghir tribe (the Alayi). They called him the Hunter and acknowledged him as their greatest warrior and chieftain. He would shoot wild deer with his bow and tell people where he left them so they would pick them up.

To be continued shortly.

>>35468371

Far less than I would like. I know his people kept making him fight because he was by far the strongest warrior among them, and they kept being attacked by various enemies. So he had to kill many, many people, which to Yukaghirs was bad for two reasons: it was bad and shameful by itself, and it would eventually result in divine retaliation. The Yukaghirs did think of their earth and sun deities as essentially benign and just in their way, but at the same time as utterly inhuman and fond of indiscriminate, disproportional punishment towards those who transgress against them. They did not hold this against the gods, they simply thought it was the way it was but had nothing to do with human ethics as they understood them (nyalle is human ethics, being killed for too much killing - justified or not, avoidable or not - is divine retribution).

>>35468556

When he was chief many nomadic bands of Chukchi would come around to intrude on Alayi territory. While some of them came to raid and fight, many others came in peace. While technically the Chukchi were intruding on Yukaghir hunting grounds, many, Idilvey himself among them, thought that killing them for it, while within the Alayis' right, would still be nyalle - after all, they merely moved in there for a time and would leave peacefully, so bloodshed wasn't necessary. But eventually his tribesmen grew very angry and demanded that Idilvey should remember that he's their chief and not the Chukchi's, and should see to their livelihood.

Eventually Idilvey grew fearful that if he doesn't do something they'll kill him and find another chief, so he began to attack all the Chukchi that came to the hunting grounds without talk, slaughtering them all. Yet more Chukchi would come as a result - the relatives of those he had killed, wishing to get revenge. "Being a great warrior, Idilvey killed them all too. His soul was hardened in this time, he became accustomed to bloodshed and stopped valuing human life the way he should".

After a while the Chukchi stopped trying to fight him, as he was too terrible for them to face. But his bloodthirst remained and he wished to increase his glory as a warrior by finding and killing the greatest warrior among the Yukaghirs. He heard about Peldudie and decided to go out and fight him. When he saw "a man who looked like a boy" he didn't realise it was Peldudie at first and told him that he's looking for Old Man, to fight and kill him. The "boy" took him to where Peldudie lived and only then revealed his identity, asking Idilvey to stay in one of his tents for the night and fight him in the morning. Meanwhile Peldudie killed one of his reindeer (in his words, "so I could eat plenty of meat in the one night left before I die") and asked his older wife if she thinks Idilvey would kill him.

>>35468969

The older wife reminded him that they are kin - Idilvey may not know it, but Peldudie does (specifically he's Idilvey's uncle). So it's shameful for them to fight. Peldudie shook his head and said that Idilvey was the one who challenged him. If he had said that they are kin NOW, it would be as if he's trying to weasel out of the fight.

But on the next day they both felt uneasy. Still, they had agreed to fight to the death. Peldudie suggested that they chase each other around some trees around which Old Man had fastened a long thin strap in a circle - whoever catches up with the other from behind first may take the killing blow. They chased each other all day and eventually Peldudie caught up and Idilvey prepared to die - but Peldudie refused: "Let's rest, drink some tea, and then contest each other to the death in some other way."

Then after drinking tea and reminiscing about how long he had managed to avoid nyalle, Old Man stretched the strap out in a line and had them stand at the opposite ends and fire at each other with bows. Each had nine arrows. Idilvey fired eight times; Peldudie simply avoided the arrows, picked them up and put them in a neat pile, and didn't bother firing back. Idilvey said he had one arrow left - for Yukaghirs, firing your last arrow symbolised giving up on life, no longer caring about what happens next. So Idilvey meant that even if he had no real chance of surviving, he was still not giving up on life as he did not yet fire it. Peldudie nodded and took aim. He pretended to shoot - Idilvey jumped up on instinct - and then he actually shot his toe off. With an arrow. "Can you feel that? Well, this will help you remember your visit. Know that I'm your uncle by your mother. Leave and don't try to fight me again. And take one of your arrows[, so you'll have more than just the last one]." And Idilvey left, appropriately humbled.

How did you find all this Yukaghir stuff? It's fucking awesome.
And I don't mean how as in search the internet, but what turned you on to them in the first place.

>>35469294
Also I can't really find much on the internet, so where would I find more of this?

>>35469222

The Chukchi resumed trying to attack his camp, hunting for Idilvey himself. They'd use their spears to throw his tent in the air with him inside it, hoping that he would fall on their spears together with his tent. But he'd always manage to jump out in time and scare them off, as they did not dare face him in person.

But finally, they managed to catch him and then slaughtered his entire camp aside from Idilvey and his two wives. They put him in the dogsled and kept him under close guard, moving him from one camp to another. Two of the guards were young Yukaghir boys that the Chukchi had captured in raids and then adopted as their own, and he spoke to them, asking where they were taking him.

"A camp was smashed in this same way once. The head of their strongest man was cut off and hanged from the top of a tree, facing towards the sea. They'll either do the same to you or sacrifice you to the stars."

And they asked him, reproachfully: "Why did you kill? Those Chukchi, if you just live in peace with them, are good people."

"How could I not kill them? I was the chief and the provider of my clan. If I had started to feed those foreigners [with game found in our lands] as though I was their chief, my own people would've hated me. They would've killed me. And so I killed."

>>35467188
What the fuck, how could you even make such an inference?

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>>35468969
>>35468556
>>35469222
> Looked old even when young
> Wise old master
> Doesn't look like he could kick your ass but can

>>35453190
'Sup, /tg/

/k/obold Here. The only thing that keeps us from converting to sikhism is the grooming requirements because FUCK THAT NOISE!

And sikhs are still bad ass. You basically need to human wave them. Keep in mind that these are the people who blew Indira Gandhi away on live Television.

>>35469327

I honestly have no idea if it is even possible to find this stuff in English. It's easier if you can read Russian, because in that case you can simply look them up on wyradhe's blog, which is where I'm clumsily retelling this from, for the most part (I did read about Idilvey in some other places too though).

>>35469478
Damn, that sucks. This only further proves the fact that I am missing out on some truly amazing stories because I can only speak English. Thanks for sharing this though, this is fascinating.

>>35466432
>>35468294
>>35468556
>>35468681
>>35468969
>>35469222
>>35469437
You know, people on /tg/ appreciate when people tell them stuff that they did not know. But someone going through the trouble of translating cultural knowledge to share it with people is on a whole new tier of awesome, it boggles my mind to think I may never have heard of all this again had I not been on this thread right now.

Thanks a lot, mate, your info writeup is greatly appreciated.

>>35469476
>Keep in mind that these are the people who blew Indira Gandhi away on live Television.
Tell me there's a video.

>>35469447

Aw hell...

>>35469437

Anyway, those boys eventually came to admire him (as he was, after all, a great warrior of their own people) and decided to help him escape, even though he hinted that he will come back and massacre the Chukchi camp later if freed. They told him the Chukchi plan to encircle him and stab him with their spears; they'll be among those present and will wear their fur caps askew, so he'll know that he could jump over them and escape when they untie him.

Sure enough the Chukchi stopped at the border of their territory, near the sea. They untied him because he was a great warrior and it would not do to kill someone like that tied up - though one old Chukcha complained that this was a bad idea and that his eyes looked too sharp.

They told him to run in a circle three times - on the third time, he would stop and then be killed. While running, he noticed the two with the fur caps askew, and on his third run - jumped over. The two pretended to try to stab him, while getting in the others' way. Idilvey kept running from those who chased him after that, circling around the camp three times before finally breaking away. The old man from before shook his head and said: "You will see the fruits of your carelessness! He circled around us three times, that means that in three days he will come back [and attack us]."

Idilvey, for his part, ran back home and went to his uncle Peldudie. He told him what happened and said that his two wives were still there, and that he needed his help to save them.

Peldudie answered: "You're the one who started killing innocent people without any need, that's why they went after you like that! And now you dragged me into this sordid matter too. If your wives had not been taken alive I wouldn't agree to come." In other words, he would never have helped avenge the people who died because of Idilvey's own misdeeds, but since there are some still alive, then that is, just barely, worth risking nyalle over.

>>35465599
They kill invasive mudslimes. I see no problem.

>>35455223
It's also used in armed and hand-to-hand combat. In absence of a shield, the bracelet, when held in the hand, can make a very effective deflector. It can also be used as a sort of brass knuckle when unarmed. In fact it was quite common in Sikh military camps for disputes to be settled by hand-and-ring combat. They believed that distrust and low morale were the greatest threats to fighting effectiveness, so whenever two men could not come to an agreement, they were obligated to fight. Whoever won the fight won the argument, and there would be no more discussion of it. As a result, there were a lot of missing teeth among Sikh warriors, but never any traitors or deserters.

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Holy shit Sikhs are badass. Why can't I play as one of these guys in Crusader Kings?

>>35469733

So on the next day they went to the Chukchi camp. They stood at the opposite ends of it and went towards each other to kill everyone in their way (since otherwise they would have gotten in the way of the rescue, or chased them, or continued to fight them afterwards). They found that old man from before and tied him up, but left him alive out of respect for his wisdom. They also found Idilvey's wives and those two boys. But they also found footprints leading out of the camp, and decided that some warriors must have gotten away. They followed those footsteps to another camp and killed everyone there as well, in the same way, to make sure no one would chase them from there either. They searched it thoroughly and found that there were no more footprints.

Then once they made sure of this, Peldudie said: "Well, I'm going back home. No matter how bad things get for you in the future, do not call on me. I, a man who has never done nyalle, - I have come here to help you only because I pitied your wives."

And he went back on his own way.

As for Idilvey, he took the boys and his wives home, and the boys eventually became great hunters. He didn't want to fight Chukchi anymore. Eventually the Chukchi began to visit Alayi hunting grounds again, and he began to live in peace with them, and they became good neighbours.

When Idilvey got old he walked towards a certain hill and told his people not to look for him. His footprints disappeared entirely at that hill. Some said the Earth itself had swallowed him, because the weight of the murders he had committed in the past was too great, and so the Earth could no longer bear him (even though he no longer did anything like that after this). This hill is now named after him, as is a nearby lake.

>>35469883
Because the religion isn't old enough for that.

>>35469578

You're welcome. I'm not sure I did such a good job of it, but hell, it had to be shared, especially with people who really can't just read up on it.

I had thought of making a native Siberian-inspired fantasy setting at some point after first reading this, but not much had come of it as yet. I did learn a lot more in the process and I'd certainly like to come back to it some day...

>>35469903
I was about to say I would like to see a movie adaptation of this over another 30 Hercules movies, but then I realized the over the top action (and dubstep soundtracks) would completely ruin the entire point of the story.
But that doesn't matter because it will never happen. That was a really interesting myth, and since I wouldnt have heard it anywhere else, thanks a ton for posting.

>>35469854
>unarmed
But Sikhs are always armed.

>>35469978
If they get disarmed, or don't want to fatally harm their opponent, such as in a camp dispute.

>>35453190
ITT:
/tg/ is a bunch of Sikhaboos.

I approve

>>35470110
I know I can't help it. I'm a middle-eastern history major. Everything from the Balkans to North India is my shiiiit.

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>>35468278

They call themselves Luorovetlan, which means "Real People". The only other group that they consider human is Russians - but the Russians are a second-rate race of humanity that exists to a) produce tea, tobacco, sugar, salt and iron and b) sell all of that to the Luorovetlan. All their other neighbours are even less than that - and a lot of those peoples, like the Koryaks, have accepted Russian rule of their own volition in exchange for being protected from the Chukchi.

(Note that this attitude did not keep them from occasionally having more or less cordial relations with, say, Yukaghirs, when not fighting them to the death as shown in that and many other epics.)

When the Chukchi went to battle, they beat on drums made out of human skin. Their warriors tattooed their right arms to mark their kills. The most experienced among them would have tattoo lines that stretched from their wrists to their elbows. Their women walked around with knives so that if enemies seemed about to win and take over their camps, they could kill their children and then themselves; as already said, their menfolk likewise held their lives in contempt and could kill themselves very easily as a gesture of defiance after losing a fight or getting a bad deal while haggling. This may help explain why they aren't that numerous today (still way more numerous than the Yukaghirs, who got screwed hard by Mother Nature as well as by alcohol and, eventually, by the Soviet government; there are a whole 15802 True Humans in the world today).

>>35469972

Yeah, it's probably better if it stays the way it is. Still would be nice if more people knew about it and incorporated it into the stuff they write somehow.

What I like about the story (and what caused the guy who I got it from to rate it as highly as he did) is how it reveals their views on a lot of things. The main moral seems to be that sometimes you can be well within your right to do something (i.e. to kill all the Chukchi who keep coming into your tribal hunting grounds) and still wrong to abuse that right. Like shooting anyone who intrudes on your private property. Or hounding everyone over copyright for flimsy reasons - just because you're allowed to legally and with good reason, doesn't mean that you should. Or any number of other things.

Yukaghirs genuinely seem to have had a very... merciful attitude compared to most every other culture I know of. I'm not trying to hold them up as noble savages here, it's just a striking fact of their existence. During the collectivisation, all the private herds got merged, but all their Yukaghir "kulaks" got from their poorer tribesmen in that age of state-sanctioned violence of the poor against the rich was... a stern talking to, after which they were quickly allowed to live on as respected members of the collective. All the Yukaghirs that died during the collectivisation had to be killed by outsiders, which is extraordinary even by Siberian native standards.

>>35470166
That's pretty hardcore.

>>35469972
You might want to look up Atanarjuat.

>>35470152
You better start talking then.

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>>35470292

Their preferred method of education involved sneaking up on young boys and burning them with heated metal objects, to teach them to react to the slightest sounds or touches. This training culminated by sending a young Chukcha on some task with his father sneaking close behind them and then finding an opportune moment to shoot him in the head. If the boy jumped away in time, he was a man. If he didn't, he was a corpse. Sparta ain't got nothin'.

A child that cried for a long time after being punished was believed to be poorly brought up. A real Chukcha is supposed to respond to all the misfortunes of life - pain, hunger, death and so on - with contemptuous laughter.

It's also worth noting that in the 17th-18th centuries the Chukchi went a-viking to North America, skirmishing with their archenemies the Eskimos, attacking European settlements and taking slaves. Supposedly (this seems kinda dubious to me but I've seen it in several different articles) they particularly favoured black women, though I'm not sure where they would have found them in any great amount at the time on the West Coast.

What can /tg/ tell me about Pashtuns?

Don't they follow a warrior code like Arthurian Knights?

I heard that they have a strong sense of hospitality, anyone, even he is an enemy, are to be given shelter and protection if they ask you for it. I heard that Osama bin Laden invoked those rites of hospitality for protection against the invading US forces.

>>35467188
Sikhs don't fight to defend themselves, only others. It's acceptable for their nonviolence beliefs to get themselves killed, not acceptable for those beliefs to get others killed.

It's pretty easy to kick the shit out of someone if they don't defend themselves, anon.

>>35470443
Unfortunately I don't know much about warfare. Most of my studies have been on gender dynamics throughout the middle east.

>>35470586
We have basically been talking about culture and societies in this entire thread. If you have anything to contribute, we'd be happy to hear it.

>>35470573
You don't actually believe that, do you? Sikhs got killed because they are a minority forming 4% of the Indian populace. That romanticized bullshit was never true at any point of their history.

>>35470573
the sikhs will totally defend themselves, its the kirpan which is only used to defend the innocent.

>>35470702
This.

>>35470573

Firstly, this seems utterly at odds with how they generally do fight back. (Though I never attacked one myself, so I guess it's all just second hand knowledge.)

Secondly, what about defending each other?

>>35466274
It could be fun in times of Kievan Rus. It could be a dark fantasy in case of early Muscovy dominance. And it would turn into straight "western" drifter between death of Ivan the Terrible till late 17th century.

>>35470720
Sikhs do fight back, but there's shit all you can do when there is a mob of 200 curries outside trying to set your house on fire with you and your family inside. There are accounts of Sikh women having to strangle their infant children so as to prevent them from crying and giving away the hiding place of the other children and old women.

Those anti-Sikh pogroms had the sanction of the state, policemen and the army, which was called in, just started shooting at anyone they saw wearing a turban. It was at this time that many Sikh boys had their hair shorn off to avoid persecution.

>>35467188
So much curry detected

>>35467366
We should differ two things.
1) Paladin as a good guy adhering some religion and helping others.
2) Paladin as a guy adherin some religion and doing stuff based on it.
The first one won't work with Norse. It's not even about rape, pillage and loot. It's about general mentality toward others and killing.
The second one - anything goes, so a violent, devoted viking is a perfect paladin of his own religion.

>>35470635
Well, okay. The middle east is usually thought of as being a terribly oppressive place towards women, and while the medieval middle east was definitely patriarchal, women had a lot more influence than people give them credit for.

In the Koran (I've only been studying Islamic societies lately) it explicitly states that Women are equal to Men in the eyes of God, and as God is genderless, so too are humans only separated by sexual function--in theory, any woman should be able to perform any duty, and hold any position a man can. Unfortunately, this was quickly reinterpreted by the early Muslim community. While acknowledging women as equal, many religious leaders stressed that sexual temptation was the doom of any society, and since women are OBVIOUSLY all seductresses, they should be kept separate from men whenever purity of mind and body is necessary. Exactly when and where purity is necessary has changed over time and place, but by and large, whenever you see something profoundly misogynistic in Islamic culture, the justification is, "Because otherwise men would be overcome with lust towards these women and they would both be violated."

Still, women DID hold some measure of power. To begin with, although the laws were meant to separate the genders, they were more preoccupied with keeping men away from women, than they were keeping women away from men. This meant that, within all-female company, women were almost totally unregulated. Often, women would gather together to discuss politics, the Koran, and share poetry. The more learned women would teach the others to read and write, and do basic math. Think of it like 12th century tumblr. Often, they would drag prepubescent boys into their gatherings, and grill them about the going-ons of the men's world. In one story I read, a nine year old girl revealed to the other women that she had eyes for a boy her age, so they quickly went off and brought him back, and had him strip and dance for her.

>>35467188
>if group of people X is so great, why are they mortal and why can the rest of the world still be assholes?

>>35469883
CK ends about a century before formation of Sikhism. You should ask yourself why the fuck they are always ommited in EU series and only show up late for the party as Punjab in Vicky

>>35470635
>Alarm
>Curry detected
How about you go back and see how your caste is beating the living shit out of someone from lower one?

>>35470852
I think both could fit in Norse. Being horrifyingly violent and nice to good people / people who are apart of your religion aren't mutually exclusive.

Sure a Paladin of Thor would be more about smiting people than helping others. Odin's Paladins would be a lot more balanced as I assume Tyr's and Ullr's would be.

>>35470911
They exist now in EU4

>>35470854
Wait, so the Quran has none of the misogynistic shit that it gets so much flak for?

>a nine year old girl revealed to the other women that she had eyes for a boy her age, so they quickly went off and brought him back, and had him strip and dance for her.
>whyboner.jpg

>>35470959
Please, don't remind me this crap exists. It took all the expansions till HTTT to make EU3 playable. It's the same amount of expansions in EU4 and it's still crap

>>35470990
The next expansion looks like it may finally fix things. But yeah, shit game so far.

>>35470981
Happens when sizable chunk of believers don't as much as not read it, but is unable to read it. Hence you put some dipshit who says "Quran says X are evil and should be killed" and they follow him.

>>35470948
What are you even talking about? I just said that acting like a bunch of sissies and just letting other people wail on them was never a part of Sikhism. It is a very militaristic religion which became thus after persecution by Islamic rulers of India.

>>35471011
So it had nothing that could be construed as denigrating women?

>>35471010
They won't fix the trade which is favouring Europe regardless of how history turns out and they won't fix favouring certain nations to the point of serious imbalance. Cause both of those things are essential for the game.

>>35471033
I'm talking about the fact that Hindu are bunch of morons who hunt down anyone who is not Hindu and/or of lower caste. Sort of thing that the world treats as barbaric, but Hindus are fine with. Cause they are so fucking manly

Not a single word. It's more about traditional interpretation of it's content than anything else. Sort of Virgin Mary going to heaven - have you ever find that in the Bible? Yet it's part of the doctrine based on tradition.

>>35470981
It did and it didn't. It should be noted that Muhammad's beliefs changed as he grew older. Early in his life he was very adamant about equality of the sexes, but as he grew older, he seemed to become more bitter, and began to see women as lesser to men. But still, the verses in which women are treated with equality and respect vastly outweigh the ones in which they are diminished. There's even an entire section dedicated to the rules of divorce, most of which protect a woman's rights before, during, and after being divorced from her husband.

It should also be noted that a huge amount of the stuff people reference when talking about Islam--both within and without Islamic society--is actually from the Hadiths. Hadiths are NOT considered the direct word of God. They are BY DEFINITION hearsay--something someone heard the prophet say, or heard from someone else, and so on. Every Hadith is categorized by how long/short the chain of transmission is, and by how reliable the sources are. Most of them were almost certainly not spoken by the prophet. This is where you get stuff like the 72 virgins in heaven. That particular line is explicitly noted as false.

But even when the official record written and recorded by the Caliphate says something isn't true, that doesn't stop people from believing it...

>>35470793

uh excuse me I am half a Slavophile and I think 17th century is when Russia was its most distinctly Russian.

At least it certainly was the time when its native political, religious and cultural traditions attained the greatest prominence as opposed to earlier and later times when Greek, Bulgarian and Western European influences were more prominent.

>>35470854

Wasn't there some medieval Arabic novel about a female grifter who exploited that for all that it was worth and didn't give a single fuck?

>>35470951
Not really. It could work with second class of paladins, but not the first one. For very simple reason - Norse believes aren't as much about good vs evil or less evil vs pure evil. It's about how badass it is to kill things. Not a single word about helping others or being a decent person. After all, all it take to get into Vallhalla was dying in combat - you had 50% chance to qualify, regardless of ANY deeds in your life. On the other hand, dying in your bed was one of the worst things that could happen

>>35471135
A Slav here. Late 17th century is the period right before it westerinised and was basically on constant wars with everyone around.
If you want truly X stuff that makes basics for any culture, you should always check it's folklore. And overwhelming amount of Russian origins from Kievan Rus. That's why I'm mentioning it as the best period for the setting

>>35471158
I mean that's basically the plot of 1001 Arabian Nights.

Also, fun fact, the Arabs were hilariously racist. The whole framing story of 1001 Nights was a local king had just been married, only to discover that his wife had previously had sex with a black kitchen slave. He was so insulted by this, that he declared the entire female gender tainted, and decided he would marry and execute every woman in his city, one by one.

>>35471082
One, the Hindu religion doesn't exactly tell people what to do or not, there are different philosophical schools within Hinduism owing to the fact that it is literally thousands of years old. You have schools that are atheistic, monotheistic, polytheistic; there are hundreds if not thousands of deities. The only sermonizing you'll find is in their epic literature like the Mahabharata where duty and rectitude are said to be above all other considerations.

Second, Hinduism is a cool religion, no seriously. It's Hindus, and other Indians, who are a shitty people. There are Indian Muslims and Christians and they are all absolute cunts. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the region and its culture.

Third, Hinduism as it was supposed to be no longer exists. Yes, there are hundreds of millions of adherents, but Hinduism got appropriated by Hindu nationalists who turned into a strict doctrine of does and don'ts. Seriously, anyone claiming to be a proud Hindu is liable to be an absolute shitcunt. This faggotry goes so far as Hindu nationalists rewriting history where in the caste system was created by the British, the lower caste were created by the Muslims, and the Aryans were not invaders but originate in India (because then you can piss on Muslims for being invaders).

>>35471207
>the Arabs are hilariously racist
FTFY

>>35469578
I definitely have to agree, especially since there isn't stuff we could find out otherwise. I'm going to have to save this thread myself, even if it will be archived on moe. Like, I think there's genuinely a lot of worth in preserving this kind of information and sharing it to those willing to listen. I like to think that the more know about the different ways humanity has lived, the more we know about ourselves and humanity as a whole, and the opportunity to learn new lessons and reinforce the valuable ones we already know.


And besides, they'd be awesome to use as the basis/inspirations for cultures in a campaign.

>>35471212
>Mahabharata where duty and rectitude are said to be above all other considerations.
Sorry, I lost you here. All Indian epics are about how great it was to conquest the whole Peninsula, how manly we are and how inhuman the previous ihabitants were, so we did a great thing by killing and conquering them and then enslave as lower caste. That's what Mahabharata and Ramayana are about.

>Yeah, everyone in India who is not a Hindu is a cunt.
That's basically what I've stated already - that they are a fucking mob, hunting down non-Hindus and treating them like crap for the sole fact they exist. Way to go

At least I can agree with the last part. But the facts are pretty simple - it managed to create violent, intolerant toward non-believers society with rigid social strata based on your origins and acceptance of your slave status. So yeah, fuck that shit

>>35471093

One thing people often don't realise about both medieval Islam and medieval Catholicism (and Orthodoxy and Judaism too, I just don't actually know as much about either) is that both always had a considerable intellectual humanistic tendency.

For instance, just look up the Mutazilites, who believed in free will and a religion based on reason and logic. I recall they were quite at odds with much of the Hadiths as well, holding them up to the scrutiny or reason and bearing all those caveats you mentioned in mind. And they were the DOMINANT school of thought at some point (9th-10th century AD), though later they steadily lost power.

>>35471199

Well, yeah, if we're talking mythic fantasy then Kievan Rus is the way to go, hands down. But 17th century Russia is pretty good for low fantasy - a huge land threatened by neighbours and torn apart by rebellions (Бунташный век, if you're that kind of Slav), where you can justify running into pretty much any kind of people in Eurasia, whether Chinese or Persian or Kazakh or Swedish or English - or indeed Yukaghir).

>>35471364
I'm the kind of Slav that was raiding the Russia all the 16th and 17th century. The one that managed to be the only one to took Kremlin and stay there for a while. So when I hear about "torned apart" 17th century Russia, it makes me laught - that's the first three decades. The rest was Russia torning apart all the countries around.
But I agree, that's marvelous period for low fantasy or outright historical fiction.

>>35471082

Honestly talking about all Hindus as a group is even more stupid than talking about all Muslims and all Christians. Hinduism can't even be said to be a coherent religion that splintered into many different sects; it's more of a cultural+philosophical+religious tradition out of which many different religions had sprung out.

And I don't think it's Hinduism that made Indians so bad at times. I think it's plain old human nature. Come on. The Germans weren't Hindu, but they managed the things you describe just fine when they wanted to (not just in the 20th century, no). Mob violence is a worldwide phenomenon, and the solution is neither more nor less religion, it's more prosperity and/or more civility in society and/or more state-imposed order.

Hinduism is too disorganised a religion to have much of an effect that is entirely its own anyway. You could maybe say that the Catholic Church made Europe in the Middle Ages better or worse, plausibly (I'd say it did plenty of good things and bad things, and the worst thing it did was having a bloody civil war instead of a REAL reformation along humanistic lines that I believe could have happened under certain circumstances). But Hinduism? Who is the Pope of New Delhi? Which Shaivist Ayatollah issued a fatwah against Sikhs?

>>35471364
>>35471409
Didn't Poles have their "Wild Fields" (Dzikie Pola) set in that period in the border territories between Poles and Rus?

>>35471290
The Indian prime minister who seems to be one of most popular, has been accused of causing anti-Muslim pogroms that killed thousands of Muslims within weeks, of such brutality that they make your stomach churn. Pregnant women having their fetuses ripped out and thrown in fires, girls being raped in front of their mothers and then cut into pieces.

This man, riding on money from the pro-business lobby, is bandied about as the best thing to have happened to modern India by the 70% Hindu majority. If that isn't sickening I don't know what is. And he is like a celebrity right now.

>That's what Mahabharata and Ramayana are about.
Wrong, you would be trivializing the efforts that Western scholars went though to understand their depth and share with the rest of the world if you think that is the case. These epics are genuinely insightful and scholarly works that have a lot to tell us about the human condition and the nature of human existence. They are not ballads in the vein of Norse epics. The climatic battle is preceded by hundreds of pages of verse, the Gita, where the prince reluctant to kill his own blood is told that materialistic aspect of life is but an illusion, and must not come in the way of discharging duty.

Also, has description of a "just war", where rules were laid out as regards to how war was to be conducted to minimize suffering and loss.

>>35471425
>Hinduism is too disorganised a religion to have much of an effect that is entirely its own anyway
Bullshit detected.
It's not how the religion is (de)centralised. It's the mentality it's supporting for it's believers, regardless of local variables and sects. And that's the mentality of testosterone poisoned conqueror

>>35455218
you probably need to learn more on the mongols too there.

>>35471432
I'm not trivalizing anything, this is romanticised and shrouded into myth history of Aryan conquest of the Peninsula. The thing that justifies why conquest, war, slavery and caste systems are great. They aren't.

>>35471409

You guys. I can't stay mad at you guys for 1612. You have great literature and cuisine that at least seemed very, very good after living in England for a few days, which may not be saying much. Plus I guess we kinda got back at you after that...

Er, anyway.

No, really, look up Sten'ka Razin, and any number of smaller but nonetheless bloody rebellions. It was a dangerous country to visit, though just how bad it was and just how much Peter the Great supposedly "fixed" it is widely overstated. I'll grant you that I wasn't thinking much when I said the foreigners threatened us - that was more in the 16th and early 17th centuries, after that the balance slowly but surely tipped back.

>>35471440

And I'm telling you that there is no such religion as "Hinduism". There are many, many different Hindu religions, and exactly what kind of things they educate among the believers varies immensely from place to place and from time to time, much more so than with Catholics or Muslims.

Every sikh person i've known has been a total fucking bro.

>>35471440
>It's the mentality it's supporting for it's believers, regardless of local variables and sects. And that's the mentality of testosterone poisoned conqueror

Hinduism doesn't preach anything. It basically says this, this and this are what could be said about human life and its role in the cosmos.

>>35471463
Hindus doesn't exactly advocate any of those. The caste system exists in Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, etc throughout the Indian subcontinent.

Hinduism asserts that all life is equal in importance. While abrahmic religions talk about animals and plants being put on earth by god to serve man, Hinduism asserts that man is the same as other beings in the cycle of life.

>>35471468
I'm not saying it wasn't dangerous country to visit, since the peasants rebellion were common up to Catherine. Nor that Peter fixed things - he simply gave them pretense of not being as barbaric as they were. My point is simply that Russia wasn't anymore treatened by outside forces since mid 17th century. Sure, they were enemies, but they no longer was doing whatever they desired and unopposed.
So it would be more about dark setting "during the war" rather than dark setting "everything is fucked up"

>>35471489
>Curry detected
Yeah. And caste system isn't really religiously-sanctioned slavery, right?

>>35471510
>Talking about caste system
>In context of other religions
>Ommiting the fact it's rooted into Hinduism
>And enforced on people living in the Subcontinent
>Whitewashing it into hippy bullshit

Please, stop

>>35465536
His turban is a fookin city m8

>>35471531
It's the other way round. Religion was used as a pretext by upper castes to allow the caste system to exist and solidify.

This is why you don't see the caste system in Norse and Slavic societies even though they all originated from the same Central Asian Aryan beliefs.

>>35471549
>Whitewashing it into hippy bullshit
I'm really not, I'm just sharing what I know about Hinduism. Caste is an abomination, much worse than slavery in some aspects, and you'll find Hindus (upper caste immigrants) all over defending it.

But like I said above, it was appropriated into Hinduism rather than the other way round.

Also, back not to distract from the discussion, but if you're interested in Sikh fighting techniques, this guy has an excellent series of armed and unarmed Sikh martial arts videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLTcVJGMBkQ

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>>35453190
Not really on topic, but in the setting I've worked on in my head Paladins are holy WMDs, undead created by their gods, capable of mass smiting and general wrathful fist of god business.

>>35471578
>nihang
>does the jaikara
>starts speaking in english
Okay, I wasn't expecting that.

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>>35471573

>>35471516

True. "Everything is fucked up time" is one of my favourite times though. The Time of Troubles was just amazing from a roleplaying perspective - you have your 4+ imposters running around, your Swedes and your Poles, your Cossacks and your opportunistic Tartar raids, the scheming boyars, and people of different social stratas starting to rally together into an Opolcheniye in the hinterlands, which for all its flaws was the greatest moment in Russian history as far as I'm concerned, maybe second greatest after winning against Germany (again - with all the less flattering aspects of what happened then being kept in mind).

Vockerodt, a Prussian secretary visiting Russia in the early 18th century, even wrote about it as the proof that Russians can't just be dismissed as a bunch of filthy, animalistic savages, though they by and by might seem that way. After all, they somehow managed to pull their country back from the brink without any outside assistance or any monarch to lead them, the latter bit being particularly amazing in his eyes.

I'd love to play through such a segment somewhere, whether in Russia or in some fantasy setting (doesn't even have to be Russian-based). Where you just start out as being local-level people in a provincial city trying to save it from anarchy and then gradually work your way up to leading a united army to retake the capital while politicking with various other groups goes on in the background.

>>35471578
>Weaponized Sikhs with blades fucking everywhere
Jesus fuck

>>35471531

No curry here, actually. And no, the caste system is something else entirely, whether you like it or not. It was division of labour taken to its extreme conclusion and sanctified by official religious ideology. It sure seemed to survive just fine among Muslims though.

>>35471737
Yea, Pakistan has a caste system among muslims

>>35471737
Caste system origins from keeping Dravidians at bay and under servitude. Then it simply get out of hand. Sizable chunk of Hindu religion is based on justification and rammening of Aryan conquest and rule over the region. The whole philosophical stuff grown on it later. This is basically Path of Inspiration IRL.

>>35471754
Maybe because it's historical part of India region? You know, the cultural sphere of the region, not the borders drawn in late 40's when things get divided by religion.

>>35471710
Then obviously Polish "Dzikie Pola", only with slightly flipped perspective and times - it's basically "everything is fucked up time" in late 17th century eastern borders of the Commonwealth.
God, I really wish there was an English translation for the book... probably the best Polish-made tabletop rpg, yet never translated. Kind of annoying when you consider what awful titles GET translation

>>35471832
Is there a pdf?

>>35471832
>best Polish-made tabletop rpg

Isn't that actually something of a contest? I keep hearing about great Polish tabletop RPGs that will never, ever get translated.

>>35471845
In Polish, yeah.
Want some?

>>35471856
Sure!

>>35454693

But, what if the person in question is a reverse-vegetarian?

>>35471854
To be honest, there are only two good Polish games. Wild Fields/Dzikie Pola, set in 17th century Poland, almost a historical game AND Neuroshima, which has fucked up mechanics, but is a great post-apo setting. Witcher is so-so, unless you are new into tabletop bussiness (where it shines as perfect teaching material) and the rest.. well, better not talk about them. There are also somewhat archaic Cristals of Time/Kryształy czasu, but it was originally released as semi-coherent articles in RPG magazine, which finally released dumbed-down version in '98. The articles version is great, but you have to collect a lot of stuff to get is working, while the dumbed-down version is just plain horrible

>>35471713
I counted five or six different blades on the instructor

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>>35471879
What?

>>35465599

>More violent then the Hindus

Er, anon, you do know how that's not exactly an accomplishment, right?

>>35471875
Wait a moment, I'm gonna upload it

>>35471814

Yeah, but Muslims have conquered the area long before then, and they are oh-so-egalitarian when it comes to other Muslims (gender aside). And yet...

>>35471884

Oh. A bit less jealous then. Yeah, I was mostly thinking about Neuroshima there.

>>35471899

Think he means a person that refuses to eat vegetables and plants, the sort that only eats meat.

As far as I know, the only people that do that are certain Eskimo tribes, and that's due to the fact THERE ARE no plants where they live.

Still, I'd guess there's some weirdo out there that does it on purpose, but the bigger question would be how they got involved with the Sikhs.

So how do you archive threads would like too come back and look at this at some point

>>35471922
Chill, I know the drill. If the mechanics of Neuro wasn't so damn messed up, it would be the best game ever made here

>>35470287
I'm a bit late, but thanks for the write-up, anon.

>>35471907
Ok, 1E will be in about 20 minutes - lagging net. The 2E will be added later, I will have to go in 30 minutes

>>35471952
To archive on suptg, check this - http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/requestinterface.html

Moe archives automatically.

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Hit the bump limit. Should we make a new thread?

I wanted to discuss Bedouins and Pashtuns.

>>35472106
Fuck... I need few more minutes to deliver the Wild Fields!

>>35467188
isnt there a cow you should be worshipping, or a tech support call to fuck up there?

>>35467188
The reaction of Americans to Arab immigrants post 9/11 pales in comparison to this shit.

>>35472222
EVERYTHING pales in comparison with religious riots in India. Even other religious riots. Probably only ISIS outdid them

>>35471875
>>35471875
https://www.mediafire.com/#84h2i5y2i3473
http://www.mediafire.com/download/b23cc4v280at408/Dzikie+Pola+ed.+1+-+Podr%C4%99cznik+Podstawowy.pdf

I will post in the same folder 2E in about 2 hours

>>35472287
Ok, 2E is already ready to go, net get back to normal
http://www.mediafire.com/download/nyf7juzdgnkrc0a/Dzikie+Pola+ed.+2+-+Podr%C4%99cznik+podstawowy.pdf

>>35471884
What about By Fire and Sword?

>>35472349

Thanks, man.

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>>35453190
Well to be honest when I play paladins(twice so far) I tend to style them as Saracens.
They have the religious aspect, especially if you style their order after an Islamic Tariqa and Saracens were also known for their own brand of heavy cavalry.
I find this makes for an interesting brand of Paladin, especially if youd like to play a Paladin who doesn't necessarily see eye to eye with local customs or what is considered correctly 'good'.

That being said you could go for other cultures looking back into say the Ottoman Empire, you have the Jannisaries, this would be good for a Paladin who was raised from birth as an orphan within his religious order and trained from a young age to take up the mantle of holy warrior. Would be fun for a Paladin, who despite now being truly faithful and devoted, might harbor doubts because he was never really given a choice and may also be the offspring of followers of his orders enemies. Works even better if you want to play a ranged paladin/

>>35456223
Their training and ability to fight was definitely one thing, the fact that they didn't need to worry about the multitude of Muslim or Hindu rituals, some very taxing logistically, was also a major pro of Sikh soldiers.

>>35472414
That's a book, not a game. The "Wild Fields" are based upon the book, or to be more specific - the same time period as Sienkiewicz's Trilogy

>>35467188
Hindufag fuck off

>>35473576
There is a With Fire and Sword vidya though. Maybe that's what he meant.

>>35471510
>The caste system exists in Sikhs
WRANG
Did you miss the million times in this thread that anons have mentioned Sikhism's various equality shit, down to the communal meal? All that was created specifically to do away with the caste system, hell, feeding the poor is only a secondary purpose of the langar, the primary purpose is to show the equality of all the people.

>>35473746
That's why we detected so much curry in this thread - it's beyond average curry's mind that there can be no castes

>>35474132
>it's beyond average curry's mind that there can be no castes
More to do with the fact that they revile anyone who's not a Hindoo

>>35454748
It'd be a badass real-life justice league.

Recruited through time to fight Nazi Zombie Robots, they stand for truth, justice and freedom for all.

>>35474140
In fact, it's both. They neither understand lack of castes, especially if they are from higher ones, nor existance of other orders in different religions. It always make me laugh how they insist that some specific anti-caste religion, like Sikhims, is cast-based, while one of the fundaments of the whole religion is abolishment of some ridiculous social structure of inequality.

>>35474146
Made my day. This is crazy enough to be used in incoming pulp campaign

>>35473746

That's wrong, though. Sikhs may not have INTERNAL castes but they are COLLECTIVELY a caste in Indian society, just like Parsees.

>>35472239

How about pogroms in Russia during the Civil War? And by Russia I mean all of Russian Empire minus Poland and Finland and maybe the Baltic States.

>>35472830

Of course the Janissaries themselves really don't work well as paladins, being state soldiers. But children collected by a temple as tribute and raised to be paladins is by itself a cool idea.

>>35474245
So they are treated as a caste by Hindoo. Which makes the whole argument pointless, since they themselves don't have castes. It's the Hindoo moronic way of dividing people into castes, regardless if they even bother. This often includes other religions, because fuck this shit.
And then people ask me what's my problem with curry