>>31779240

Yep

Postan in bait thread.

And sorta. The Naginata became more of a woman's weapon over time. Real samurai used Yarí and Yumí, a spear and longbow. Swords were used for more close quarters.

They weren't side arms, per se. More of a PDW than a handgun. Wakazashi were more akin to the modern day handgun.

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Yes, though as you imply by it being a sidearm, Samurai would go into battle with a primary armament of some sort of polearm or bow and have a katana as a backup, for the era I assume you mean anyway (the point after most were horse archer types).

>>31779240
Yari and the yumi. Katanas were a secondary weapon for close quarters or if you, say, broke your spear.

The katana's basically a heavy cavalry saber in the way it's used ahorse. Extremely dangerous against light or no armor.

>>31779240
Yes. Most Samurai fought with longbows or spears (not Naginata, for the most part - IIRC the Naginata was actually considered a feminine weapon and was taught to noblewomen.)

It's iconic not because it was their primary weapon, but because it served as a symbol of their status in later periods, when only Samurai where allowed to carry them by law.

In modern action movies, you don't often see people fight with rifles, you mostly see them useing handguns. Sidearms.

So, in modern fantasy movies, it isn't weird that people are often shown fighting with katanas. Also sidearms.

>>31779288
Basically this. The katana only became emblematic of the samurai class when it became a status symbol during peacetime.

>>31779267
I'm really not trying to get anyone angry, I'm just trying to build a samurai without using the samurai class.

I really like longbows.

Please don't get riled up guys.

During times of peace Samurai would walk around with katana+wakazashi and use them for any fights/duels that broke out, but a force heading off for a pitched battle would have a polearm, nodachi and/or bow or gun as their main weapon.

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Best Samurai miniatures for wargaming? I know I must raid Oshiro's Terrain for buildings at least but for soldiers? Sizes other than 28mm are acceptable.

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>mfw 10 posts on the actual use of katanas and no weeaboo rage.
Damn, /tg/, you changed.

>>31779267
What the fuck are you using accents for on the i's? If you want to get technical use kana or kanji...

>>31779470
You can be interested in building a samurai without being a faggot.

They usually opened with arson and waves of peasant footmen, while they hung back and shot arrows.

>>31779474
Ah, there it is. The rage I was expecting. Let it blossom forth.

Nagitanas are pretty cool. Mostly because they remind me of glaives, which are fucking awesome.

>>31779240
If by naginata you mean Yari (spear like), yes.
Naginata was mostly for women, and in some few cases men.

Yes, like swords in Europe, Katana was a sidearm for when shit hit the fan or more peaceful times.

>>31779311
Samurain in PF is more focused in bows and naginata than katana, actually.

Specially in mounted archery.

>>31779240
Swords in general were a sidearm. Spears, pikes, bows, etc. (anything with range, really) tended to be the go-to for actual combat.

>>31780029
>Naginata was mostly for women
>Mostly

citation pls, that weapon is far to useful for me to unconditionally believe to be largely restricted to a single sex rather than noted that it was used by women on occasion.

>>31779919
Why would you use diacritical marks that are not even normally used in romanji?

It's not so much weeaboo rage as it is typography rage.

>>31780055
The naginata was considered one of the weapons suitable for a woman due to the idea that with its reach, a woman would be able to keep an opponent at a distance, thus lessening the advantage an opponent might have in terms of physical stature.

The idea that the naginata was only or primarily used by women is a misunderstanding of this simple concept.

>>31779306
I wonder why this happened, and why its still happening. Sidearms are becoming the heroic weapon of choice while primary weapons take more of a back seat.

>>31780055
It was used by men, but was considered a womanly weapon because having reach would allow a woman to equalize the difference in strength against a man, and would allow her to fight from behind a barricade (such as a desk moved into a doorway as she defends the household).

>>31780000
They're basically the same thing, blades on sticks.

>>31780135
By that logic a spear and a halberd and a pike are all the same thing.

>>31780135
Naginata, guan dao, glaivees when I imagine a typical woman warrior she is usually wielding some variation of those weapons

>>31780151
Spear is a blade on a stick.
Halberd is a blade and a spike on a stick.

>>31780135
they really are

>>31780151
Yup, a blade in a stick. The blade or the stick changes, but the concept is the same.

Also the katana wasn't a combat weapon, the one used for combat was the Tanto. The katana was used during the Tokugawa era, and was an status symbol with the wakizazhi, and used mostly in duels.

>>31780186
A Spear is a spike on a stick.

>>31780101
Because sidearms are more up close and personal, makes the conflict seem more tense and exciting for the common viewer I guess

>>31780055
If you're either Japanese, a weeaboo, or a practitioner of Eastern martial arts, it would be common knowledge.

So apply yourself for like two fucking minutes and you'd see for yourself that naginata techniques are mainly taught to women, aside from a very limited number of old-fashioned schools with a really comprehensive curriculum for everyone.

>>31780029
>Like swords in Europe, Katana was a sidearm.

No.
Stop.
That's just not true.
Every single piece of artwork made in the high medieval period calls you on your bullshit.

>>31780101

Because you can't walk around in town with an assault rifle and most movies don't take place on a battlefield.

Cops use handguns too you know.

>>31780265
Wasn't the naginata used by warrior monks, or did Total War trick me?

Also tatsubo best weapon.

>>31780337
Tetsubo, and yes, best weapon ever.

>>31779506
I think he just means that there hasn't been any weebs complaining about people actually knowing about Japanese culture.

Actually, no. Samurai were proficient with all their weaponry. They would not use their katana as a last resort.

The sword had it's own specific use in the samurai's arsenal. The bow was used, obviously, for ranged combat. Their spear was undeniably the best weapon for combat on foot, or fighting infantry on horseback. Contrary to popular belief a samurai's sword would also be used as a primary weapon when running down enemies. The spear might get stuck in an enemy's body after being impaled, which when riding a horse is quite inconvenient.

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>>31779240
Yeah, you got it.

In a real battle, most samurai were armed with spears, bows, and depending on era, guns.
Katanas were for situations where a spear or bow would be less than ideal, such as very close combat or fighting while indoors, or if your spear broke, etc. There's no reason not to carry a katana, because they can be attached to your waist; it's right there if you need it. Because of this, they were also convenient to wear if you were, say, traveling or ambushed on a street.

The katana was definitely used in the battlefield, but there was also a long period of relative peace beginning around 1604. There wasn't much war to do, so a lot of samurai decided to just go around and duel the fuck out of each other and perfect their sword skills. Miyamoto Musashi lived in this era, and to this day he's renowned as a master swordsman, though it should be noted even he said that spears and guns will prevail on the battlefield. He said swords should be carried because it gave you more options in battle, and that flexibility was key to surviving and winning.
I think this era is where some of the romanticizing came from; there was no one to go to war with, so everyone decided "fuck it, let's just get really good at swords". There's nothing wrong with dueling, mind; it allows you to safely get experience. If you hone your skills fighting other sword schools in nonlethal matches, you're that much more likely to survive a life or death battle.
However, even in the West swords are generally renowned as the go-to hero's weapon; this leads to a lot of depiction of swords as the end-all perfect tool for fighting, rather than a somewhat situational item used alongside one or two other weapons. It's just that only historical combat enthusiasts and places like /tg/ (Weeaboos/Westaboos aside) that really understand this.

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>>31780337
>>31780364

>>31780364
Tetsubo bros unite!

>>31780210
Full of shit, this one is.

If you knew anything about what's being discussed, you'd know that the TACHI, not the tanto (which was a long knife), was favored in combat prior to the late 1300's and early 1400's. During the Ashikaga bakufu and the Warring States period, battles in open fields became rarer, and battles in confined spaces became more common. This coincides with the earliest known katana, which were shorter than the tachi, less broadly curved, and were drawn and carried differently. It also coincides with a period where many tachi were converted to katana, and where some of the best-known kodachi were produced.

The katana was increasingly favored through the end of the Tokugawa shogunate and the Bakumatsu period, where carrying the daisho pair became the rule for the warrior class. The most famous engagement that explains this shift would be the Ikedaya incident, which pitted revolutionaries and loyalists against each other almost entirely indoors. Carrying a tachi indoors would basically be a death warrant: as it stood, some of the Shinsengumi who survived found that their shorter katana were a bit too long to be comfortably wielded.

It all depended on the type of engagements a warrior could expect, and that changed over time. Same old song and dance, really.

>>31780337
Total War tricked you.

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>>31780337
Of course they were. The naginata was used by men; it's a perfectly useful weapon.

It was just that it was also taught to be used by women; they could use it to fend off attackers if your house was invaded.
If you were off doing stuff, and you didn't want your wife or daughter getting killed and/or raped, it was a good idea to have them learn how to use it.

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>>31780539

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>>31780616

>>31780055
It depends on the era. It only really took on the "woman's weapon" thing after around 1600, when changes in fighting styles made it less useful as a regular weapon of war, but where it was still expected for female members of the samurai class to learn to use it.

>>31780337
That's more artistic symbolism to denote sohei from other types of soldiers (why exactly the naginata became associated with them in later artwork isn't entirely clear), though yes, it was used by them, as were other weapons, and it was also used by samurai and peasants as well. Nobody had a monopoly on it.

>>31780645
As a person who has zero knowledge in fighting styles, and weapon advantages, care to elaborate why a blade on a stick would be more or less useful then a spear? I feel the naginata would be more unweildly to use because of that blade.

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>>31780539
Tetsubos don't get enough love.

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>>31780710
Well, you're probably assuming the naginata was used to thrust. It was used in big sweeping motions; this would ward off several people at once, even if they were bigger than you. Naginata blades were machete sized, so they could cut you pretty well if a solid blow hit. It's all about keeping distance and zoning.

>>31780807
That makes a lot of sense. I was thinking yari and naginatas had a similar fighting style since they were both pole arms, but that's clearly not the case. Though, I have to ask, was there any benefit to using naginatas in large scale battle? Spear walls seem more effective for that sort of thing. Like, it doesn't seem efficient to use a weapon with big sweeping motions with an ally doing the same thing near you.

>>31780710
The real death knell of the naginata was the introduction of firearms, the same as the pike in Europe. A Naginata is a great weapon for a lot of things, but I would hazard that it's not necessarily that a speak is better, but that a naginata is somewhat more complex and specialized in terms of learning to fight with it, and that kind of specialization becomes less worth it when more and more battles start becoming decided by firearms alone. Like someone said, the naginata becoming a "woman's weapon" for defending the home and what not is still in line with its specialist nature and its capabilities, less so in war proper.

>>31780807
>machete-polearm as a traditional women's weapon
DAMN IT JAPAN YOU WERE EXPORTING THE WRONG CULTURAL STEREOTYPES ALL ALONG YOU ASSHOLES

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>>31780715
Fuck yeah spiked clubs.

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>>31780990
What about spiked clubs, blade on a stick, and a gauntlet all-in-one?

>>31780901
WRONG
The pike remained in use as a counterpart to gunners well into the late 17th and early 18th centuries. It was only after the development of the bayonet and further developments in firing mechanisms / powder were pikes finally removed from militaries. Source: 30 years war, 80 years war, even Poland's uprising in the late 18th century (but that was more so due to the angry peasants not having guns)

>>31781057
Oh.. That's silly. Silly enough to be a Monster Hunter weapon. I like it.

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>>31780954
I think for Japan, the woman's weapon was always the naginata.

The idea of the bow as a woman's weapon (I hope that's what you were referring to) is probably more of a modern thing, as it allows you to show women helping in combat without being directly in harm's way.

The only way to reverse this bow-problem is to depict more women with machete-spears. You know what to do, /tg/.

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>>31780990
>>31781057
Spiked clubs are the bomb.

>>31781074
I wasn't trying to claim that the firearm immediately obsoleted the pike, but it certainly started the decline in its popularity.

>>31780293
Have you never known the phrase "artistic liberties"? The sword has always and continues to be highly romanticized which leads me to believe that artists would use a more romanticized sword in their art than a spear.

>>31781165
Fair enough then, but there was a large over lap period of 300-400 years, just as knights as highly trained, self armed warriors were active well into the 17th century when they were finally dropped altogether due to paying for one guys full plate, fancy horse, fancy wheel locks, lance, cavalry saber, foot saber, and his own personal fee was less useful compared to stamping out a dozen sets of munition armor and a dozen pikes and training some peasant boys to go fight for you

>>31781143
Honestly I think it has more to do with the popularity of kyudo as a contemporary woman's sport (and the fact that girls wearing kyudo gear look beautiful) than anything else. I've never seen much in the way of artistic depictions of feudal-era women bow wielders, but the fact that modern kyudo uses traditional clothing may lead some people to erroneously making that assumption. Kyudo in general is still very popular, compared to practicing the naginata as a martial art, so you're bound to see more bows in the modern interpretations of budou practitioners.

>>31781164
Not enough spikes.

>>31781143
i wasn't saying that like something bad.
I am just kinda mad that japan has so many cool weapons and all we ever see is KATANA KATANA KATANA.

>>31780990
Is that Dmitrys artwork?

>>31781639
looks like it.

>>31781639
Yeah, but it was the only spiked club picture I could find on short notice in my mess of a /tg/ folder

>>31781651
are your /tg/ and /d/ folder mixed?

>>31780539
>tfw no blue oni gf

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>>31781671
Kinda?

>>31780715
Was the tetsubo primarily used for training? I've always been kind of curious about it, because it doesn't seem like the kind of weapon you'd actually carry around if you had swords and spears available.

>>31781671
Implying /tg/ isn't /d/'s blue board. Hell I'll be surprised if more people didn't have them mixed.

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>>31781624
I kinda agree. I personally tend to favor swords myself, but there is this sort of oversaturation.

If we want to see more besides the katana, then it's really up to us to play samurai that use weapons besides the katana.

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>>31781697
No, it was a real weapon. It's like a big, studded baseball bat. Even if you're wearing armor, a tetsubo would still break your bones and bash in your helmet. I don't see it being depicted a lot, but it's not hard to imagine how dangerous it is.

>>31780901
>the same as the pike in Europe

There is literally a period of warfare called Pike and Shot.

>>31781823

It seems kinda unwieldy though. But I suppose it could work as shields never caught on in Japan.

>>31782098
Well, not all tetsubos were that big. They varied in size; some were rather thin, some were the size of a Louisville slugger, and some were like five feet long.

>>31782098
Japan did use shields though. They were the type you use in the field to shelter yourself from bullets and arrows. They just didn't use shields for other things.

>>31782172
They've basically transitioned into prison batons.

>>31782098
They liked their polearms too much for shields

>>31780293
yes, and jesus was a white man with long brown hair who lived in england, too.

>>31782197

Yeah, I was more of referring to the fact that trying to use some two-handed club aganst someone with a shield who knows what he's doing is going to end badly for you.

>>31782098
>implying ashigaru aren't shields

>>31781165

>What is pike and shot

>>31779240
Like many others have said before me, Yes. You're right on the nose, OP, with the exception of the Naginata.

(however, I don't want to sound like a broken record, so you can read the other posts instead)

>>31780125
As this poster says, the naginata, while used by men, was more often associated with brides of Samurai, as they were trained in the weapon with the expectation of defending the home if necessary.

>>31780265
The naginata became associated with women during the edo era (peace time),
prior to that (the warring stats period) it was a staple of the samurai arsenal.

I am an instructor of eastern martial arts.

>>31781164
>Nightmare'swaifu.jpg

I think there's some confusion when it's said that swords were mostly sidearms. Ignoring that it wasn't always the case, the idea of a sidearm was quite a bit different then.

Nowadays soldiers will not use their pistols (if they even carry them) if they can avoid it. The sword, in contrast, is expected to be used in some situations which don't necessarily fit the "shit went wrong" description.

Using spear, polearm or bow when storming a castle might be not be the best plan for example.

So it's not so much a weapon of last resort, but just another part of your armament used in certain situations. This is of course talking about samurai and knights, foot archers with little armor would rather not have to draw swords for example.

>>31784425
More of "Secondary Weapon" than "Sidearm"

>>31784425
Pistols actually are pretty useful when you're busting bunkers or other cramped environments. They're expected to be used in situations outside the "shit went wrong" category as well - unless you want to make a case for shit most certainly having hit the fan when you can't call in an airstrike to fry an enemy in a hardened position, but hey.

>>31780056
because romaji is a japanese alphabet and assumes japanese pronunciation, but English can pronounce things in dozens of fucking ways because its stupidly complicated.

hence the diacritics

>>31782098
Remember height differences. Japanese people 500 years ago. A tetsubo would be about as tall as 1.5 baseball bats. When you consider how flimsy japanese armor is, and that only Samurai were allowed to wear it, the Tetsubo starts looking very dangerous indeed. There was a wood-painting from feudal japan that depicted a Samurai standing over the shattered bodies of an entire village that had disrespected him, tetsubo slung over his shoulder. It was rather graphic with the details of the damage.

Also consider the building materials of the area. Tetsubos basically had the same impact as sledgehammers. They could be used to tear down any non-stone building.

>>31784982
>romaji is a japanese alphabet
i'm not sure what you mean by that because the way I'm reading it you're wrong.
>and assumes japanese pronunciation
but assuming you don't know what you're talking about this statement becomes moot. If we assume you just phrased the first part poorly, then this contradicts your own logic. Yes, when seeing Japanese romanized it is assumed that Japanese pronunciation is used, and thus diacritics are totally unnecessary as the letters of the roman alphabet used are assumed to indicate japanese phonetics.

A katana is a Samurai's soul. You wouldn't go a round cutting someone's limbs off with your soul unless you are either fine with getting your soul covered in nicks and peasant blood or you are borrowing your soul from some random dead samurai who, in the graciousness of his heart, lent it to you for the small fee of free.

>>31786442
>not wanting to murder people with your soul
loser

>>31784982
But they mean literally nothing in the context you used them.

>>31786141
>>31782098

Also worth pointing out that a tetsubo would royally fuck up a samurai's mount. You could kneecap man and horse alike with one of those.

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>oh god please don't let this thread get de-railed
Oh shit!

And yes the katana was a side arm.

>>31784982
The diacritics serve no purpose besides making you look retarded. Unless you're trying to say the words are pronounced yaREE and yuMEE, which is just blatantly wrong.

>>31784982 isn't me.

>>31786297
I am the person who posted with the diacritics... it was a typo, my phone decided to add them. No clue why. It loves trying to correct my grammar too; it's terrible at it.

>>31788164

The person you responded to isn't me. I'm the one who posted with the diacritics, and it was accidental. This is my 3rd post in this thread as I have been gone all day with work and the like.

I am this post, >>31788339 and >>31779267. The diacritics were my phone's idea of a joke. SwiftKey is nice, but sometimes it gets a funny idea in its head; and it is a linguist's nightmare.

Also, it's pronounced y/a/ - r/i/. Japanese loves open vowels. Not sure if you were trying to say /e/ or /i/ with the EE thing you posted. Gotta love English and its lack of phoneticism.

Go to google translate. Input these two kanji and ask it to say the words for you in Japanese: 槍 and 弓. The reading voice for Japanese is actually really good. I love making it talk like a cat, but the translation function falls flat on its face.

>>31782692
What this guy said, pikemen were still around for a long time after firearms because early weapon drilling and accuracy was crap.

Pikemen were used to screen musketeers from calvery and other pikemen because they could easily run them down or otherwise remove them. However, if unharrassed, firearms are devastating to other units.

That said, there is a reason that the pikemen in the first row are almost paid triple of anyone else, because guns are gonna kill at least a few of you even under the best conditions before you make it to them.

>>31780899
Thats why the naginata fell out of us Anon.

>>31784425
this, this this this

>>31780029
>>31779288
>>31780029
>>31780093
>>31780125

The association of the naginata and women (specifically samurai wives) came later during the Edo period. Since this period was characterized by well, peace, samurai would leave the armour and heavier weapons like the naginata at home, in the care of the wife, and carry the sword for daily business. Consequently the naginata came to be associated as a woman's weapon, and swordsmanship gained a greater emphasis during the Tokuwaga regime.

>>31782098
>>31782197
The large rectangular pauldrons on o-yoroi (armour in >>31781823) are designed to catch enemy arrows when using a bow from horseback, something that sort of precludes the use of a shield on the arm.

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>>31781639
He's actually got a fair amount of pre-DmitrysFuta artwork that's SFW and borderline-NSFW.
It's sad to see how he's improved technically over time, but he's not as creative nowadays and just does the futa stuff.

>>31789700
>spread curvy legs
>big stiff cannon
he was already on his way

>>31784425
I agree with this with the following clarification: Swords were considered sidearms, but that's because you literally carried them at your side. They were valued for use in violent, mixed frays which featured in most battlefield situations.

This is true for pretty much any sword, including the Katana. They were well used weapons, and were employed frequently.

Phalanx of 500 Spartans Versus a battalion of Samurai.

Who wins?

>>31789625
If he is talking abut what I think he is then its less a shield you where and more of a man portable wall.

>>31780539
This kills the peeasant

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>>31779474

>>31790222
Depends on just how resilient those bronze shields really are, I would say Spartans would have a good chance against the samurai since they have spears to use against horseback soldiers.

>>31779240
The primary weapons of Japanese conflict were Yumi longbows and Naginatas/spears
Katanas made with low quality iron that Japanese smiths had to work with were generally pretty brittle and unreliable, but they were extremely dangerous to someone without armor, that being said pretty much all samurai wore steel plated armor.

So yes, the katana is typically a backup weapon.
Kind of short range being historically less than three feet in length

>>31780990
>Deathbysnusnu.jpeg

>>31779240
In the same way that knights wouldn't turn to a masterwork bastard sword as their primary weapon, yes.

>>31794393
The fragility of Japanese swords is seriously overstated,
they might not have been as durable as a western long sword but not by much,
unless you are talking abut those western style swords they mad during the 1800's those things sucked.

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>>31794955

They were by no means terrible, and wouldn't exactly shatter like glass, but a thin blade has its disadvantages.

>>31795043
A katana blade is not thinner than a euro longsword blade.
In fact, it's thicker.
It is a blade made out of soft iron with a steel tempered edge (hence the wavy pattern), which makes it heavy and more likely to bend than to break, like in your gif, A longsword would either bounce or snap in such a strike, but a katana bends and fuckaroos into an L.

>>31795823
They did the same test with a longsword (IIRC the same guy made both longsword and katana, he's renowned for his katana even) and the target breaks, i think the longsword suffered little damage there.

Not that this is in any way meaningful, perfectly perpendicular edge to edge strikes aren't all that common.

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>>31795823
>>31798355
This is the one you're thinking of. But it's important to remember that this kind of test is not really representative of anythign at all, sine in a compat situation you wouldn't be striking full-force edge-to-edge against a tightly secured blade.

>>31794192
The samurai can just like, dismount, you know? Besides, spears don't give you an automatic +10 against horse, having one just tends to minimise the disadvantage in reach you'd usually have against a mounted enemy.

But anyways, if the samurai do their usualy horse archer thing, the spartans would probably be boned. They could just surround them and pepper them with arrows from several sides until the spartans are sufficiently forn down.

>>31795823
A european sword flexes as opposed to a japanease sword that bends, the non-flexible back makes cutting easier with the katana

>>31779506
You can be a faggot without being interested in samurai
>checkmate, atheists.

>>31798593
Aiming at sword anyway would be freaking stupid, since you are there to defeat the opponent, not to blunt his weapon.

>>31781857

I've heard shot won

>>31801948
There are valid reasons to hit the enemy blade on purpose, but they're not attempting to break it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hs4Wq_ADxQ

>>31801995
Is that legit?

>>31780101
>>31780225
>>31780334
And because the common man can better associate with using a handgun than they can a big rifle or shotgun.