Hey /tg/Let's build an alternative version of hell, that we can use in our games.
>>31359885>one giant waiting room per damned soul>they are forced to wait alone in there for all eternity, feeling hunger, the need to relieve themselves, lack of sleep and every other discomfort as time goes on>there's one door out the room>they can escape from the room but always come back
i think it would be best if hell were personalized depending on the person sent there and what they did to make them go there
>>31359928Add to that:The worst vice in the person's life consumes them.So if they had a really bad temper, they'd be hungry, need to relieve themselves, feel exhausted, but also be INCREDIBLY ANGRY and frustrated forever.If they were lustful, they'd be in the most horrible, unfufillable need, forever.
>>31359885Hell is the place where the evil gods reward evil people for being evil, in the same way that Heaven is the place where the good gods reward good people for being good.\Hell is still a really fucked up place because of all the horrifying and batshit insane things people who are cosmically encouraged to strive towards evil end up wanting.
>>31359950I had the same idea, but then i thought: >Damned souls are forced into slave-labour to build an eternal empire>Hell is preparing for war with heaven
>>31359995>the war never happens>working in vain is their punishment
>>31359928All I see with this is a giant DMV waiting line>FINALLY I CAN GET OUT OF->Sir please stand in line 4>I...I WAS JUST IN LINE 4>Sir...Line. 4.>Fuck
>>31360000>nice quadsYeah, something like that. But i have this thought, that hell is a really bureaucratic place, and that there are some very specific rules as to where in hell you can be, and such
>>31360005Are you saying DMV is not hell?Now imagine an eternity of it.
>>31360005What happens to all those chaotic evil people without the sense of social obligation that drives normal people to stand in line rather than beat people to death with their bare hands out of frustration?
So, what we got so far is, hell is one giant bureaucracy where the damned toil endlessly for nothing inside empty cubicles, and have to suffer eternity of filling formulars and other mind-numbing tasks specifically tailored for their sins, without any chance of ever getting a snack, drink or a chance to take a piss.This is brutal.
Is the devil that bad of a guy?I mean Satan killed 10 people in the bible. God killed millions.Satan does not demand your blind obedience. Satan does not demand sacrifices of blood.It was not God who sought to give you free will, for he denied humanity the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was Satan who "tempted" humanity into awakening their own destiny's, rather than serving him without will.Hell is not a lake of burning Sulfer. It is a kingdom where you are must sing endless praise of your tyrant, unable to convince of anything else. Your will, your identity, is ripped away.The finest trick of the devil was not to persuade you that he does not exist. Instead, it was to persuade you that he is both justice and mercy, and that you liberator is to be feared.Heaven is hell.
uhhhh demon fucks you up the ass for a... thousand years??
>>31360113Well, one common (and kinda fun) thing to ask theists is how they determined that God was the good one and Satan was the evil one.Because if we take the Bible as God's word, then the only way they have to assign labels seems to be...God's word. And wouldn't some evil asshole who wants to trick you into serving him write a book where he says he's the good guy in order to fool people? As far as I can tell, Satan is the one with no counter-propaganda, so God's the only guy really pushing his own agenda.And if all it takes to convince you that someone is good is their word, then you really are bad at critical thinking.
>>31360156That's some people's fetish m8.
>>31359885>Let's build an alternative version of hell, that we can use in our games.Vision presented in KULT RPG is all there's needed.This, or simple, mundane life led by 99% of people.
>>31360216There's an answer to that, but many theists don't know it. (I don't know it well enough to explain it myself)Thus a question born of ignorance only confounds those who are ignorant.
>>31360291There's an answer to how we know God is good and Satan is bad? Sounds like bullshit to me.
>>31360332The answer is clear.One is one who bestowed free will onto humanity.The other is one who regularly committed genocide against every living thing.
>>31360332>There's an answer to how we know God is good and Satan is bad?Yep. But to accept it, the change of paradigm is needed.See, religion is like a game. It has it's own rules and taboos that you follow. You don't question them, you simply follow it.Step outside - everything seems stupid.It's like with chess. As soon as you play it, you stop questioning the movement of Horse piece. No reason for that.>>31360385>One is one who bestowed free will onto humanity.Free will as in "freedom of choice" is impossible, or at least limited in such way that it plays no role whatsoever.
>>31360020They'll be able to feel it in the first time of their lives, irresistibly. They'll be trapped in this new, horrifying feeling that goes completely against their very nature. What could be better torture?
>>31360577>What could be better torture?For men: helplessnessFor women: timeFor children: loneliness
>>31360216Metaphors are crazy things....Hmm... What about a religion that grew out of the slave classes of the Roman Empire when they were crucifying people all the time...One that was translated and transcribed by the empire itself...Makes you think about the fact that Jesus was a revolutionary leader who was put to death for mobilizing a nonviolent (biological threat?) army of lepers and whores on Jerusalem...
>>31360156Such a punchable face.
>>31360216Look at what Jesus tells people to do:1) love others as you love yourself2) go out of your way to help people3) let me help you become a better personAlso, religious people are significantly more charitable than nonreligious people.> people thinking the king of lies would want a record of what he said> "Satan isn't so bad" he encourages people to go magical realms, both in RPGs and real life> people don't want to admit that they can improve, that they might have to sacrifice something they enjoy to become a better person> point to pain as proof God doesn't exist, still haven't learned their purpose in life, sees no correlation.On topic: invisible Lego's glued to the floor everywhere.
Australia, but with more fire?
>>31360113Well, Old Testament Satan was still an angel - Ha-Satan, the Accuser, a dude who tests people to see how pious they really are.
>>31361583Australia already has a fair bit of fire
>>31361453>implying Jesus is the jew god>not being GnosticWhich is more likely: that this world is imperfect because its creator has no idea what he's doing, or because one person ate an apple and we all deserve to suffer for it?
>>31361453>invisible logos glued to the floorOh, you son of a bitch. That's just cruel.
>>31359885It's a second Earth, except with every traces of good removed.There is no punishment harsher than being an asshole among other assholes in a world of assholes.
>>31359992>>31359995Fall From Heaven II's fluff has something like that.http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=306677
>>31360012Paradise lost anyone?
>>31361639He's the angel who's entire job is to oppose god and say "No YHWH that's stupid". I think he's the only angel who can even do that, since the rest of them are just going "God you so great I'm gonna sing forever about how great you are"
There is no Hell, everyone goes to the same place where a dude in a throne judges you, if you were a normal person that did nothing with his life, you go to a place where you wander for all eternity forgetting everything all the time, if you were a person above and beyond the expectations of the dude judging you go to a place where you remember everything you did even those embarrassing things you did in high school.
>>31360050>Demons watching the line to make sure no one cuts or otherwise causes trouble.>One for each deadly sin, and they all have an annoying trait associated with it>Gluttony is a mouth-breathing neckbeard, Wrath is an asshole who explodes over the smallest thing, Pride is that annoying guy who keeps talking about himself and never shuts up.>Have to deal with these guys for an eternity, or at least until your number finally comes up.
Why do you need an alternative version? Use actual mythology/literature/demonology as sources - tons of scheming dukes with various provinces and powers, the whole thing as an immense seven-layered prison, two huge metropolises in Pandemonium and the Iron City of Dis.
>31361784You are of course assuming that this world was not planned for from day -1.> day judgment > tons of people pass because they bacame the best they could be> God says "just as keikaku" keikaku means plannedOn topic: hair cannot be cut, but still grows.
>>31359885What if there's more than one hell, but one per sentient race in the universe? And what if you could accidentally get sent to the wrong one after your death? Would the elven hell really be that bad place? Would you even understand what is going on in the Silicoid hell, which is mostly kinda...mushy.
>Here's one possible hell:Hell is a massive workshop tasked with producing an arsenal for the battle at the end of time with either Heaven or an even worse Hell.This hell's a place where the damned toil as slave labor in an infernal smithy -- they mine rocks, they load ore into the smelting furnaces to produce workable metals, they fuel the fires and pump the bellows, they provide motive force to various mechanisms such as mechanical hammers of enormous size.If you toil well and selflessly, you are placed in positions closer and closer to the master smiths of hell, who may teach you something if you pay attention and don't fuck up.Eventually, the "best" among the damned become master smiths themselves.Eventually, every master smith fashions a peerless masterpiece; if worthy, they are granted this fell weapon as their personal boon and sent back to the mortal realms with it....>Here's another:Hell is just like the world you lived in....it's just a little bit worse. Oh, and you can die in hell (and eventually will)....If you were "good," you find yourself in another world that's an awful lot like the hell you last died in, except it's a little better.If you were "bad," you find yourself in another hell that's even worse than the last one you died in.Sorta like karma and reincarnation.
>>31359995read barlowe's inferno for inspiration because it's a lot like that
>>31360113how did adan and eve knew they shouldnt disobey god if they couldnt tell good from evil before eating the apple?
>>31364380They didn't. YHVH is insane.
>>31359885An endless shift at McDonald's with nothing but dumbass foreigners and scammers for customers
>>31360400so what you're saying is there's no explanation
>>31362506> Satan's face when he's constantly telling god not to do things that will backfire.> Satan's face when God does anyway. > Satan's face when everyone blames him for the backlash.
>>31364447They didn't need to know whether eating the apple was good or bad, they just needed to obey god.
>>31360645Even if the chaotic tried to rebel, just keep sending bodies until he suffocates, or open holes in the walls to stab/shoot through, have the floor open up or the ceiling drop spikes and continue until he ded. Then repeat the process, possibly still bearing the pain and wounds from previous escape attempts until he's broken.
>>31364741With no knowledge of right or wrong, God's commands had no value.It's like blaming an ant for not donating to charity.
>>31361453Except that if you take out the standard 10% tithe that is given to churches and count only actual charities, nonreligious actually contribute more. And hippy Jesus is only present in only one of the gospels. In the earliest one of them he is pretty much your standard rabbinical jew. Its only after the work of Paul spreading his weird little cult that hippy Jesus even starts to appear in the gospels.
>Hey guys, lets make a hell!>WHAT MAKES GOD SO GOOD, HUH? WHO'S HE TO JUDGE MEAnd people say daytime /tg/ isn't shit.
James Joyce has an absolutely amazing passage in Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man where a priest scares the shit out of the main character by talking about hell. The part about eternity is really what gets me though. Part 1:"To bear even the sting of an insect for all eternity would be a dreadful torment. What must it be, then, to bear the manifold tortures of hell for ever? For ever! For all eternity! Not for a year or for an age but for ever. Try to imagine the awful meaning of this. You have often seen the sand on the seashore. How fine are its tiny grains! And how many of those tiny little grains go to make up the small handful which a child grasps in its play. Now imagine a mountain of that sand, a million miles high, reaching from the earth to the farthest heavens, and a million miles broad, extending to remotest space, and a million miles in thickness; and imagine such an enormous mass of countless particles of sand multiplied as often as there are leaves in the forest, drops of water in the mighty ocean, feathers on birds, scales on fish, hairs on animals, atoms in the vast expanse of the air: and imagine that at the end of every million years a little bird came to that mountain and carried away in its beak a tiny grain of that sand. How many millions upon millions of centuries would pass before that bird had carried away even a square foot of that mountain, how many eons upon eons of ages before it had carried away all?"
>>31365245Part 2:Yet at the end of that immense stretch of time not even one instant of eternity could be said to have ended. At the end of all those billions and trillions of years eternity would have scarcely begun. And if that mountain rose again after it had been all carried away, and if the bird came again and carried it all away again grain by grain, and if it so rose and sank as many times as there are stars in the sky, atoms in the air, drops of water in the sea, leaves on the trees, feathers upon birds, scales upon fish, hairs upon animals, at the end of all those innumerable risings and sinkings of that immeasurably vast mountain not one single instant of eternity could be said to have ended; even then, at the end of such a period, after that eon of time the mere thought of which makes our very brain reel dizzily, eternity would scarcely have begun.If anybody is interested, the rest of the chapter is here. You'll have to skim over some parts if you just want the Hell speech.http://www.online-literature.com/james_joyce/portrait_artist_young_man/3/
>>31360050Hell is dilbert.
>>31365339But I actually like reading Dilbert...
>>31359885>Let's build an alternative version of hell, that we can use in our games.I think the judeo-christian version is fucked-up enough as it is thank-you-very-much...
>not just using Dante's Inferno's hellJesus fuck it has eternal whirlwinds, endless battles, cities made of iron and fire, lakes of ice, pits of mud tended by demons wielding grappling hooks-what the fuck more do you want?
>>31366974Are we talking Dante's hell, or the actual biblical one, which is just Hades: everything sucks forever and death is eternal anguish in mind and "body"
Going to post a reply to some of the questions, just posting to ensure that the thread doesn't die.
>>31359885I was told hell is actually a paradise where you never see your loved ones. Basically a hollow heaven.
>>31365245>>31365273Holy shit I remember reading this passage and having the fear of God put into me.I've never really been exposed to the fire and brimstone approach besides satire, but to actually read it was terrifying.
Amateur theologian here to answer a few questions raised in this thread:>>31360113With regards to this:This is a question asked by every first year philosophy student (philosophy 101) because it’s edgy and completely unverifiable so allows for circular “prove it, prove it, prove it” arguments rather than any meaningful discussion of theology. Theological satanism is a reasonable argument if you are using it as a reductio ad absurdum evidence against the existence of God - but I have heard people use it to seriously claim that the foundations of religion are immoral and that Satan is the real hero, such a LaVeyan satanism (which isn’t worth reading up on, as it is 2edgy4u encompassed in a single book). It’s also meaningless to say that God is evil and therefore the bible is not an accurate source therefore allowing you to make up whatever ridiculous fantasy you want about God.Now, God is ultimately good as revealed through the bible and through his actions. He gives order to the freed Israelites in the form of the ten commandments and punishes the leaders of the brutal regime that was Egypt in the form of the plagues and the pillar of fire. Later, in the New Testament Jesus (think of him as an avatar or of the same body, homousion) says that we should love our neighbours, help the needy, turn the other cheek and generally be good people. Even somebody who does not believe that God is good would see that God clearly commands good things.
With the exception - as noted God does kill people actively. First of all, I want you to ask yourself why it is wrong for God to kill. God killing people simply returns them to their creator, it does not condemn them to an eternity of darkness and unthinking as many atheists believe. If an afterlife exists, then is the act of killing as intrinsically wrong as it would be if there were no afterlife. God’s killing is inherently less evil because he is simply taking away their lives and due to the way admission into heaven works, it is likely that he would give them a choice of eschatological acceptance of God and therefore acceptance into heaven.Now, Hitler killed 14 million people, Stalin killed 50 million and Mao killed upwards of 70 million. Is God really that evil when he kills 2.8 million people over the course of thousands of years? There are people that try to act as apologists for these quite clearly evil men, but not for God - an omniscient creator of the universe who is simply doing what he feels right in his infinite intelligence. God claims:“Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?” Ezekiel 33:11This would suggest that the fact that God kills people because it is necessity. My own interpretation is that somewhere between the Old Testament and the New Testament he decided that instead of trying so hard to create the Kingdom of Heaven on earth - “On earth, as it is in heaven” and decided that instead he would give people an opportunity to prove themselves in life to see whether they are worthy for the kingdom of heaven.Earlier in the bible is revealed that God does not have innocent bystanders. He only kills evil people.
in Genesis for example:Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”… (Abraham keeps going down, fourty, thirty, twenty, ten)He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”33When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.But it proves impossible for 10 people to be found that are good in Sodom and Gommorah, presumably because they’re all inhospitable homosexual rapists and so God destroys the cities. Similarly, in Noah he saves the only just people (Noah, his wife, children and neighbours) and decides that everybody else should die. God clearly only kills those who are evil or deserving of death, the voluminosity of how many he has killed is ultimately irrelevant as it gives no indication of how evil the people he killed were.
How about this, replace all devils and deamons with scorned women
Now, the question of whether the devil is in actually bad is an interesting one. For the most part, the devil being good would not necessitate God being bad, that is the wrong way of looking at things and fairly irrelevant to the ultimate question about what Satan’s intentions are.From the way he is described in the bible, he seems like an angel that is tasked by God to spread evil and therefore to determine whether people are truly good people and therefore deserving of heaven. For example, in the story of Job he is stricken with plagues, he loses his family and his riches to test whether he is truly pious. Satan is testing the most pious to see if they will blaspheme or do immoral things if they are faced with bad situations. A concept in Calvinism called middle knowledge would suggest that despite God’s omniscience, he can only see WHAT IS rather than make accurate predictions about WHAT WILL happen - if this were not the case then God’s divine foreknowledge would mean that all our actions are ultimately meaningless and that everything is predetermined.The devil talks to Jesus when he spends the many days in the desert, and tries to persuade him to use his divine power to feed himself and therefore not complete his mission as a human. This is simply part of the human experience, and passages like this often make me wonder whether Satan actually exists - considering he is mentioned so little within the bible - and is not simply a manifestation of the evil desires that people face within the bible.The simplest way to answer this would be:God is goodGod will kill the beast at the end of revelationsA good God would not kill somebody unjustlyTherefore Satan is evil
>>31359992Maybe the more devout followers get to decide the fate of the lesser ones?Evilly of course.And the evil gods would retain the rights to do whatever they please to you so a total paradise it isn't even for the guys way on top.
>>31368473Question: why does god not just transform evil people into good people instead of killing them.Also, if god wants people to be good and go to heaven, why doesn't he just make people be good.
>>31368547The simple answer is that it would impinge on free will. God will not simply change people's nature for the sake of convenience - otherwise is a being that does not use free will to make moral decisions really moral?God could easily program a bunch of robots to 'do good' but would they really be responsible for their actions? No.
>>31368601God created people the way they are. He is aware of everything they can do not just because he knows everything but because he made them that way.Clearly whatever they do is ultimately his responsibility and not theirs.Humans do things for reasons. Those reasons were created by god, and every aspect of the design is the way it is because god wants it to be that way. God designed human beings not just to be capable of good and evil, but he designed humans with the exact circumstances under which they will do good and evil.He is still judging automatons for following their programming that he made, and he is judging them from not following rules that he also made.
>>31368118He commands good things - or else. That's Saw tier.
>>31362629Dude, I already do that. Am I dead? Am I dean and in hell?
>>31368118>It’s also meaningless to say that God is evil and therefore the bible is not an accurate source therefore allowing you to make up whatever ridiculous fantasy you want about God.The bible is not an accurate source because it's a collection of fairy tales and myths from the Hebrew people. There is no more credibility to the bible than there is to things like the Avestas.So really, what the fuck does it ultimately matter. At this point, it's analyzing a piece of fiction. And like all works of fiction, interpretation is left largely open to the reader.
What you are suggesting is a very atheistic view on what free will is that most christians would fundamentally disagree with, as would I despite not being a christian. Dawkins argues that all our actions are guided by our evolutionary desire to repopulate - even altruism is seen to benefit other parts of our ‘clan’ or ‘group’ and is therefore simply a “lust to be nice”.Essentially, it’s a question of predetermination by our nature. I’ve always pondered whether my success in life is guided by my genes - do I waste too much time on meaningless pursuits or would it be possible for me to ever stop doing so? I am genetically predisposed to not have the willpower to fix these problems.But no, the biblical view is that humans have free will regardless of your views on determinism. People have the choice to be good people and, likewise, the choice not to be.
>>31369011Hell is filled with memes like these.
>>31369070>>31368726Forgot to link.
>>31369087It would be, wouldn't it. Considering atheists go there.
>>31368118>Now, God is ultimately goodNot really. He regularly commits genocide.>and punishes the leaders of the brutal regime that was Egypt"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. "Exodus 4:21God made Pharoah brutal by hardening his heart. God subverted the free will of the Pharoah to justify setting plagues upon the Egyptians AND to prolong the suffering of the Israelites.> Later, in the New Testament Jesus (think of him as an avatar or of the same body, homousion) says that we should love our neighbours, help the needy, turn the other cheek and generally be good peopleHe also said a bunch of other terrible stuff, like condoning slavery, and that old testament laws were still in effect and that him coming did not change the laws.>Even somebody who does not believe that God is good would see that God clearly commands good things."In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children" Genesis 3:16. God makes childbirth unnecessarily painful out of spite for people not understanding right from wrong doing wrong. (Which, by the way, punishing someone when you made them unable to grasp the concept of right and wrong is also cruel and wicket)>"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."Genesis 7:4So Genocide isn't evil. Guess Hitler did nothing wrong.Just, in general, demanding the sacrifice of animals.The plagues of Egypt, also pretty cruel. What the fuck did the first borns do, especially the first born animals who were not complacent in the "slavery" of the Jews.These are not the actions of a good being.
>>31369011You have no defense for your faith, so you resort to childish attacks of "Wah wah fedora fedora."
>>31359885California suburb.Soccer Moms.Dianne Fienstien.Common Core.Overzealous Police.Walmart.Strip malls.Tract housing.10 lane freeways (that are constantly clogged with traffic).No crosswalks.No Exit.Mainstream TV.Godless Consumerism. You cannot make a worse hell than this.
>>31369139Oh. I forgot one of my favorite examples of the failures of biblical morality. If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. Deuteronomy 22:23-24If a woman does not scream loud enough during her rape, she's to be executed. This is God's law, and therefore if God is good than his laws must be good. Killing the victim is not good.
>>31361453I prefer the idea that God is an utterly incomprehensible being with no discernible will.
>>31369139>genocideGod does not commit genocide unless it is a form of 'joint enterprise' whereby a kingdom has been immoral. The stories of Noah, the Midianites and Sodom and Gommorah show that God only kills when it is necessary and just to do so.>pharaohThis depends on your interpretation of the bible. God hardening the heart of the Pharaoh was not an individual act, it was caused by his plagues. Since all other incidents of God using divine power are directly named and described, this more modern biblical approach would make more sense.God gave the Pharaoh a choice, and it was ignored.>JesusPlease find me the exact quote where Jesus condones slavery.If you are referring to that one passage in the old testament about slavery, then you need to consider the fact that it didn't refer to 'slavery' as we know it today. It referred to something more akin to serfdom. You need a bit of context when you read the bible.>GenocideEverybody dies. Everything dies.It's called entropy.Otherwise, beyond the destruction of trees and dirt, humanity will be sent to the afterlife.Why is animal sacrifice intrinsically evil?Animals don't really have an ego or a soul. We systematically kill them for food. The Angel of Death is the most painless way to kill an animal possible - besides that, the angel of death only killed the firstborn humans.>>31369339This is Mosaic law, not the law of God.Also, it makes sense to me. Rape (by the modern definition) is treated by death, and 'rape' by the biblical definition is treated with a fine. This prevents an adulteress woman from avoiding the death penalty by crying rape.
>>31369171>the bible is fairy tales.Unverifiable, therefore meaningless.I'm an atheist, but I don't like anti-theistic nonsense like this.
>>31369070I've had a deep and long-lasting depression and I'm now doing reasonably well, and I find that now I have the strength to be a good person wheres before i did not.And I mean strength in the same sense as a person can be strong enough to lift something - or not strong enough to lift something.It seems extremely weird to me that people have this idea that the decision making processes that happen in their brain aren't caused by anything, but happen due to some other thing that's somehow defined by being "not caused."I'm not saying people shouldn't take responsibility for their actions because obviously that kind of thinking (negatively) impacts how we think about what we do and thus changes the system - and what we do.This useful idea of responsibility is obviously something that our brains need to give actions importance and value and such. And I'm not saying we should stop doing that.But isn't it childish to assume that we don't do things for reasons?I mean even if we zoom out a bit, if i put you in a box that you can't break out of, the only actions available to you are the ones that you can do while depraved of your freedom to move around.In the same way, i posit, the only actions available to you are the ones you can conceive of as viable options, and ultimately you'll choose to do something for some reason or another; you want to, or you need to, or you decided to do so based on some more complex considerations.But ultimately, whatever thing you chose had a context that led to it being chosen. Why wouldn't it? What is the alternative?
>>31368726To this and others who wonder why an omniscient God tests mortals, I say that such a God already knows the result.However, having gone through that experience, we learn on a very visceral level both our own moral strength, and that we can rely on God in desperate times. The importance of our learning points to applications in the eternities, where we will be as God, knowing right from wrong.On topic: one alternative idea for a hell is a vast and empty void, where you slowly lose your sanity and sense of self.
>>31369466I see the point you are trying to make but ultimately the biblical view is that we HAVE free will. There is ultimately a question of how much is due to nature, and how much is due to the nurture - the biblical view likely weighs a lot of our actions on the 'nurture' side whereas the atheistic view is the opposite - somewhere in the middle there is truth about the nature of where our consciousness derives choice from.Most christians would categorise depression as a test of God (akin to Job) or simply be random. Ultimately it is unrealistic to expect that everybody is held to the same standards of difficulty for entry into the afterlife as this would facilitate a complete loss of identity and loss of choice.So, of course. We do things for reasons but we still have a fundamental choice to do good even if it is harder for some people.>>31369475There are loads of arguments to counter this but I am not well versed enough to debate this. I suggest you look at:- Soft-Determinism- Libertarianism- Boethius' argument for free will- God's transcendence and temporal distortion - Middle Knowledge (I talked about this earlier)
>>31369339In a society where inheritance is very serious business, adultery is a much worse crime than it is in modern times. As such, it was punished quite harshly. Also keep in mind that Israelites didn't have CSI, so their justice system had very little evidence to go on, aside from eyewitness accounts.
>>31369445> The stories of Noah, the Midianites and Sodom and Gommorah show that God only kills when it is necessary and just to do so.>Genocide>Ever necessary and just>God hardening the heart of the Pharaoh was not an individual act, it was caused by his plagues.Read your bible, God hardened Pharaoh's heart before the plagues. He hardened the Pharoah's heart before Moses ever came back to Egypt.>God gave the Pharaoh a choice, and it was ignored.There was no choice. Read it again. Exodus 4:21, 7:3 and 13, 9:12, 10:1, 20 and 27, 11:10, 14:4, 8 and 18There is no choice ever presented in the narrative. God just hardened their hearts without a choice being presented to them.>JesusTop of my head, Gospel according to Peter says that slaves are to be subject ot their masters.>If you are referring to that one passage in the old testament about slavery, then you need to consider the fact that it didn't refer to 'slavery' as we know it today. It referred to something more akin to serfdom. You need a bit of context when you read the bible.Slavery is slavery. There is no such things as benign slavery. Owning another human being as property is immoral.>Everybody dies. Everything dies.>It's called entropy.First off, that's not what entropy is.Also, this still does not justify genocide. You're just trying to dismiss genocide as "everyone dies eventually, so what does it matter if they were all murdered by a being we're to believe is good.">Why is animal sacrifice intrinsically evil?Unnecessary suffering of another living creature.>besides that, the angel of death only killed the firstborn humans.Exodus 12:12 "For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD."In case you missed it>both man and beast.
>>31369445>This is Mosaic law, not the law of God.The law of Moses carry with them divine sanction.>Also, it makes sense to me. Rape (by the modern definition) is treated by death, and 'rape' by the biblical definition is treated with a fine. This prevents an adulteress woman from avoiding the death penalty by crying rape.1) Why was rape only a fine in the first place.2) Why does adultery carry with it a death sentence in the first place. It's a rather petty matter to stone someone to death over.
Hell is basically purgatory. What we now as demons are just the people that refuse to understand that evil is wrong, and they become the jailers of the tormented. Fallen angel are specially horrible because when they fall they can't be redeemed like human souls
>>31369621To be fair, I am insuffiently well versed to debate this much either. The religion I belong to holds that we are God's spirit children, and that after having done all we could do as spirits, we are born into this life to learn what we can of living morally in a body. Upon resurrection, one's soul is permanently housed in the perfect form of one's body, and depending on how well we have become like God, we will become Gods and Goddesses of similar glory and works. I explain this to give a context to why I believe our development is the purpose of this world.On topic: Satan doesn't rule hell. He is hell. He is literally the worst backseat driver.
Demons aren't evil, they're more like jailers.They mete out punishment and eternal tortures and such yeah, but they aren't tempting people towards sins and such, they're really trying to scare people out of doing it.
>>31369941Are you a mormon?
>>31369463Verifiable by reading the book. Even if God does exist, this does nothing to change the validity of the bible, which is wrought with what can only be mythology.Remember, the bible says the following things, all of which can be proven false.There was light before there was a sun from which the light came from. There were plants before a sun from which they could photosynthesizeHumans were created from dust as humans in the image of GodThere is a solid, dome-shaped structure in which the stars are placed above the earth known as the firmament.There was a global flood.How do you reconcile these blatant falsehoods written into the bible when the book is to be divinely inspired?
>>31369941Oh, so you're a Mormon.So you believe that the Garden of Eden is in Jackson County, Missouri, that the Native Americans are really Israelites, and that black people have dark skin because they remained neutral in the battle between your Heavenly Father and Lucifer.
>>31368118>Later, in the New Testament Jesus (think of him as an avatar or of the same body, homousion) says that we should love our neighbours, help the needy, turn the other cheek and generally be good people.it's worth noting that while there's a lot of stupid shit in the old testament, these things also pop up there as well. because it's a big collection of books you tend to get a mix of good parts and bad parts, depending on where you look. it gets annoying when you have two factions in every discussion, one of which insists on saying the bible is perfect, and the other which insists on saying it's all worthless trash and dig through for the parts where god kills people.
>>31370138(different guy)You know, I used to think that stuff was ridiculous when I originally learned of it too. But I've since then acquired a broader perspective of religions and, to be honest, how is that any stupider or more convenient than any number of things in the old or new testament?It isn't, really. Much in the same way that the Hindu gods being real isn't a particularly stupid notion either. For a religion.Beyond a certain point, you have to throw reason out the window and just listen.
>>31370265>Beyond a certain point, you have to throw reason out the windowNo. You don't. There is no reason to surrender thinking reasonably and rationally.All of them are absurd, and I was just using some personal favorites to highlight that absurdity.And the question is: Why would you believe things you know to be absurd, and you know to be untrue?
>>31369878God never committed genocide.If God says "I am going to kill all the child molesters in this locale" and only one city in the area has child molesters, then God is not committing genocide.Where are you deriving the morality behind your "wrong by definition" statement?>Hardening of the heart"I WILL harden his heart"I don't really care to argue matters of biblical interpretation. The modern modern accepted view is the one I stated, the archaic medieval view is the one you stated.>JesusAnswer below.>Slavery"Slavery is slavery"No. Slavery connotes 1800s style torture and such. 'slavery' as it is described in the bible isn't slavery, it is more similar to serfdom. It's like when people criticise Plato for not doing anything about slavery - 'slaves' had a better life then free people have today. From hereon, I will describe the 'slavery' described in the bible as 'serfdom' due to context.>Animal suffering"The Angel of Death is the most painless way to kill an animal possible"It does not cause suffering.>>31369902Except it was invented by Moses. God made provisions for the often quite harsh Mosaic law for the greater good because it allowed order. You can't just quote some law you don't agree with - they were on the verge of civil war.>Rape1.) Because rape didn't mean the same thing as it does today. Rape in those days implied violence and brutality, but nowadays we have a 'consent-based culture' where violence isn't necessary for rape. 2.) Because of inheritance, because it caused blood feuds, because God saw it as wrong.>>31369941From my reading I would support bodily resurrection.
>>31370265>It isn't, really.Yes, it is.All of them are actually pretty stupid.
>>31370443>God never committed genocide.Noah's flood. All humans but one family, plus countless animals, killed by drowning - a particularly cruel way for something to die, by the way.>"I WILL harden his heart"How the fuck does this change anything? God hardening Pharaoh's heart is God hardening Pharaoh's heart. It is an action, taken by God, to prevent the Pharaoh from listening, causing ongoing suffering of the Israelites and the plagues to happen.>it is more similar to serfdom. Actually, it's not. It was slavery. You were property. >'slaves' had a better life then free people have today.Beyond that whole "you were property and had no form of self-determination, and could be born into such a status."It's not serfdom, it's slavery. And your attempts at weaseling out of admitting the bible condones slavery are deplorable.>Animal sufferingExcept a burnt offering, which is what the original point of bringing up animal suffering, had nothing to do with the Angel of Death. > they were on the verge of civil war.A civil war that god could easily prevent, given that he is all knowing and all powerful. So what seems like the more just action. Prevent the civil war with no lives lost by changing the minds of others (see hardening hearts, he had the power to change people's minds) or allow brutal totalitarian laws to be handed down by his prophet.>1.) Because rape didn't mean the same thing as it does today. This is straight up bullshit. Rape means, and has always meant, having sex with someone against their will. >2.) Because of inheritance, because it caused blood feuds, because God saw it as wrong.This is not sufficient justification for ending the life of a human being.'You are, quite literally, scum. You are wearing blinders to atrocities. You attempt to redefine terms in order to justify the cruelties of your religion by claiming that they aren't as bad as they were.
>>31370138Yep, Mormon here.Israelites the mixed with indigineous populations, though which ones and to what extent, it is unclear. ...what. There was no neutrality in that debate.
>>31370718>Israelites the mixed with indigineous populations, though which ones and to what extent, it is unclear.Despite that there is literally no evidence of any of this happening.
>>31370712>You are, quite literally, scum. You are wearing blinders to atrocities. You attempt to redefine terms in order to justify the cruelties of your religion by claiming that they aren't as bad as they were.there's no need to be such a drama queen about it.
>>31370792Let me put it this way. I have no idea what genetic markers scientists have to track Israelite heritage, or even if they have any for the tribe of Joseph. (Jews being mostly from Judah)Also, there were two families of Israelites, who when they came to the Americas around 600 BC, had numbered about 50 people total. Good luck finding that family tree again without a thorough genealogy.
>>31370712>Noah's flood. All humans but one familyYou are presuming that innocents died, when the same source material that claims the flood happened ALSO claims that there was no one righteous on Earth but Noah.>It's not serfdom, it's slavery.Serfdom IS slavery. Serfs were bought and sold: in Tsarist Russia, 50 serfs were traded for a horse.
>>31370457You seem to have misunderstood. I was answering my own question, which was "how is that any stupider or more convenient than any number of things in the old or new testament?"to which my answer was "it isn't (any stupider than those things)"I was just saying that mormonism is just as stupid as all other religions.I'll add to that that the reason we think it sounds stupid is probably just that its absurdities are less familiar to us because we're not mormons so we haven't had the chance to get used to them the way we've gotten used to the absurdities of whatever religions we grew up in.
>>31370712You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.Repeatedly in this single post, you make assumptions based on your own personal idea of what something means, but you're wrong. You just don't know it. From rape to serfdom to your underlying assumptions about morality.You're an idiot.
>>31370712>God and 'genocide'.Based off of the way God acted during Sodom and Gommorah we can deduce that it is God's nature to ensure that evil people are killed. While you may think that it is unlikely that such a significant population were evil but since God judges people by both their actions and intentions then it doesn't seem too unlikely. Humanity is not inherently good. We have a conscience but without guidance from either God or laws were desolve into chaos.Killing evil people is not genocide. It's just killing a lot of people. Genocide refers to the systematic extermination of a race, religion or creed.>Hardening of the heartAre you saying that God should have bended to the will of the Pharaoh and try to make concessions with him? God is righteous and will punish evil people.>SlaveryBiblical slavery really referred to indentured servitude for israelites, this is NOT slavery by modern definitions. Also, God freed the Israelites from the most brutal servitude - slavery as is the modern definition. He then destroyed Judah because they were keeping slaves.For the non-israelites, it was effectively serfdom and it required the Shabbat to be honoured for slaves. Slaves would be allowed to celebrate rituals, to be treated correctly and the equivalent of Lords would be punished if they broke a tooth or something.So no, it's serfdom.I don't really care to go into a back and forth about definitions. I expect that I have studied this more intensely than you, and want to avoid "yes, no, yes, no" ad naseum.>The Burnt OfferingThey killed the animal beforehand. They didn't burn it to kill it. Leviticus 1:11
Regarding this whole serfdom/slavery thing.Imagine you are a semi-wealthy person, and you make money by lending it to people, provided that they pay it back after a certain amount of time with interest. A stranger agrees, and proceeds to buy and tend to a reliable cash crop. Unfortunately, a fire destroys a portion of his crops, and he cannot pay what he owes you at the agreed upon time. Even if you repo everything he owns, it will only cover half of the man's debt.How do you, as a moneylender who doesn't want to end up broke, recoup your loses?
>>31371207>Civil warI already explained the hardening of the heart. Why assume that God would go against his nature and do something he never does in other parts of the bible and vowed not to do over a quite clearly ambiguous phrase. I already said that this is a matter of interpretation, but for the most part the modern view and my view is what is commonly accepted.>Rapehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqi33mhXwgoStarkey is a historian who mainly focused on the Tudor period.From my reading, this is also true of the biblical definition and there is a bit of an inconsistency where referring to 'rape' which is not explicitly described and simply punished in the same way as attacking somebody, and 'rape' as the modern definition of lack of consent.>Killing somebodyYes it is.I would rather one rapist/adulterer died than a whole nation plunged into tyranny and civil war.>You are, quite literally, scum. You are wearing blinders to atrocities. You attempt to redefine terms in order to justify the cruelties of your religion by claiming that they aren't as bad as they were.No, I am just stating the facts. From what I understand from what you are saying, you are simply going on anti-theist sites and posting the worst bible quotes without context.
>>31371093Are you suggesting that dogs have morals? Are you suggesting that Lions have morals? Are you suggesting that Kangaroos have morals?If not, than why were they killed as well? Are we to expect non-sapient creatures to be moral despite their inability to do so?>Serfdom IS slavery. Serfs were bought and sold: in Tsarist Russia, 50 serfs were traded for a horse.So then why bother bringing up serfdom as if it was somehow different from slavery?
>>31371202Says the person who claims that rape isn't rape, that slavery isn't slavery, and that immoral actions are okay so long as God did it.
>>313713711) I'm not the guy you were talking to2) Are you twelve years old?3) I'm an atheist btw.You're still a fucking idiot who has no idea what he's talking about. You embarrass me.
>>31371327>Animals having moralsNo, you are correct. But since the life of an animal doesn't really have any intrinsic value from a biblical view beyond merely being God's creation. They are not moral agents and since they're not sapient, they don't really matter.>Serfdom/SlaveryOne is debt bondage that is a necessity in ancient kingdoms to actually allow people to survive. They were allowed to celebrate festivals, they were protected from violence and had a pretty nice life.The other is actual slavery and connotes whippings and torture and unjust executions. So yes, there is a difference.
>God is worse than the devil because muh animal rights
Oh wow, this looks like a fun thread to join.
>>31371207>We have a conscience but without guidance from either God or laws were desolve into chaos.Both god and law are constructs of man. Means of imposing a social order.>Are you saying that God should have bended to the will of the Pharaoh and try to make concessions with him? I am not saying that God should have bended to the will of the Pharaoh. I am saying that God should not have interfered with the will of the Pharaoh needlessly.Hardening Pharaoh's heart means that, had God not intervened, Pharaoh would have released the Israelites. But by taking the action to harden Pharaoh's heart, God increased the suffering for no good reason.>Biblical slavery really referred to indentured servitude for israelites, this is NOT slavery by modern definitionsExcept when it's not the Israelites, and instead their neighbors, such as in this passage.>Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever. Lev.25:44-46This is not indentured servitude. This is not serfdom. This is slavery. These are commands, spoken from God, to Moses, on Mount Sinai.>They killed the animal beforehand. They didn't burn it to kill it. Leviticus 1:11Irrelevant, as killing it to sacrifice was the cruelty to begin with. I at no point said they were burned alive.
>>31371498Not true, the Devil encourages raping animals and being raped by animals.
>>31368601If God is omniscient, then there is no free will. His knowledge of all that will be means we live in a deterministic universe.
>>313714181) Don't give a shit2) Ad hominem3) Don't careYou're trying to cover for biblical immorality by claiming "No, words don't mean what they mean. They mean something else."
>>31371537>Not true, the Devil encourages raping animals and being raped by animals.Citation needed.
>>31371259A money lender who is a good person would suck it up. Loaning and investment always is a risky business for everyone involved. If you liked that guy or you could see promise in him, you'd take this bullet and work on getting your stuff back by other means. If he was a clown, you'd just make a mental note to make your business elsewhere. In either case, a competent money lender would never put himself in a situation such that his losses from one deal would make him broke, and a great one wouldn't even lose any physical comfort.Now, a man who is a talented money lender, but who couldn't give a hoot about the rest of the species, would've established bylaws and hedges through lobbying and corporate politics to ensure stuff like this would never happen in the first place, or he could just gouge it out of his other customers while having the law on his side.
>>31371474You are merely God's creation. You are no different from an animal. Objectively speaking, you are an animal.As for slavery, what you describe as actual slavery is encouraged by god himself.
My world doesn't have other planes. "Hell" happened when an empire became so evil that the fear and torment of its citizens became a form of profane worship and elevated its rulers into the first devil lords.
>>31371516please don't use the kings james version, it's inaccurate and annoying to read.the new international version is the modern standard, I believe.>Hardening Pharaoh's heart means that, had God not intervened, Pharaoh would have released the Israelites. But by taking the action to harden Pharaoh's heart, God increased the suffering for no good reason.AFAIK the usual interpretation of that passage is that the pharaoh's heart was hardened by god's actions (the plagues and shit), not that god reached inside his mind and flicked a switch somewhere.to clarify with an example, if I said that "obama has made putin angry by putting missiles near russia's border", this wouldn't of course imply that obama literally controls putin's emotions.
This thread sucks./tg/ Sucks.
>>31371516>God as constructs of manWhy have a discussion about God and just say he doesn't exist whenever you feel you can't argue against the primary point.>God shouldn't have interferedGod not interfering was going REALLY well for the Israelites for the whole 430 years when God DIDN'T intervene. What a ridiculous point.>Slavery of non-israelites.Already covered this:For the non-israelites, it was effectively serfdom and it required the Shabbat to be honoured for slaves. Slaves would be allowed to celebrate rituals, to be treated correctly and the equivalent of Lords would be punished if they broke a tooth or something.So yeah, there was a definite distinction between slavery as we know it today and the excess of rights that the non-israelite serfs were allowed.>Killing an animal is cruelty to animals.No it isn't. You are wrong.>>31371599See: >>31369621
>>31371632>AFAIK the usual interpretation of that passage is that the pharaoh's heart was hardened by god's actionsThe problem is that god hardened Pharaoh's heart before Moses ever came before him. So I'm going to put this in nice, big letters, to emphasize.PHARAOH'S HEART WAS HARDENED BY GOD BEFORE THE PLAGUES EVER CAME TO EGYPT.So that interpretation is straight up wrong.
>>31369436So you're a deist.
>>31371692Wrong.God said before the plagues that he will harden the pharaoh's heart, not that the Pharoah's heart was hardened. He was talking in the passive future tense.
>>31371626Or merely becoming meta.The hell plane for his RPG is participating in this thread.
>>31371692>PHARAOH'S HEART WAS HARDENED BY GOD BEFORE THE PLAGUES EVER CAME TO EGYPT.what passage exactly? all the ones I can find which talk about the pharaoh's heart being hardened by god happen during or after the plagues.
>>31371728So God's interventions were specifically intended to harden Pharaoh's heart.
>>31371654Because the primary point has been the refutation of biblical morality as actually moral.>God not interfering was going REALLY well for the Israelites for the whole 430 years when God DIDN'T intervene. What a ridiculous point.Except God's interference directly made things more difficult for the Israelites. It was not serfdom, it was slavery. Killing an animal for the purpose of sacrificing the animal is cruelty to animals.You are wrong.>>31369621This post contains no evidence of >the Devil encourages raping animals and being raped by animals.
>>31371788>Because the primary point has been the refutation of biblical morality as actually moral.what is "actual morality" anyway?
>>31371728So you're admitting that God had full intentions of hardening Pharaoh's heart to make life harder on the Israelites.
>>31370981Well according to some mitochondrial haplogroups there might be a connection with a low amount of native Americans.
>>31371788>God's actions made life more difficult for the IsraelitesPerhaps temporarily. But freeing them from the brutal regime of the dictatorial pharaoh who they had been slaves under for 430 years is far better than continuing slavery.>It was not serfdom, it was slaveryyes, no, yes, no, yes, no - ad naseum.Other people in the thread have tried to explain this in simpler terms to you, but you continue refuting it.>Killing an animal is cruelty to animals.I disagree. Prove it.Yes, I meant to link that post to: >>31371570
>>31371775I don't know the passage, but my understanding was that Moses went to Pharoah and said "Hey, let my people go" and Pharaoh, his heart hardened by god, said "No". Moses kept asking until god decided to send plagues.
>>31371788> sacrificing an animal is cruelty to animalsYes, yes it is. These animals were the firstborn, without blemish. They were anointed, and killed.Jesus is the firstborn of God. He was without blemish. Messiah literally means anointed one. He was killed.The cruelty is real. It is not purposeless.
>>31371775Exodus 4:21, when God is explaining to Moses what he wants Moses to go do.>And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.You did not search hard enough. This conversation between Moses and God happens before Moses ever goes to meet Pharaoh.
>>31371929Future tense prediction.
>>31359885I prefer my hells in high fantasy games to be places where the evil are praised and gifted for their efforts, but if I'm playing low fantasy I prefer them to be very ambiguous..
>>31371926> It is not purposeless.Sacrificing an animal to a fictional character is purposeless.Likewise, Jesus did not exist. The first historical document recording Jesus was written in 93 AD. Long after his death.Strange that the Romans, meticulous record keepers that they were, somehow would forget to mention him.
>>31371952Still, He says "You go do this and then I will harden his heart."
>>31371929Wasn't the Pharaoh the adoptive brother of Moses?
>>31370063There actually was another star in what would become our solar system prior to the sun existing. It could also be a metaphor for the big bang, when all things came into existance. But, a large portion of Genesis is widely accepted as metaphor, most likely derived from the dreams of prophets. The dust being a metaphor for life arising from the basic building blocks placed on earth, etc.But many also accept that large portions of the old testament/torah were widely embellished by the jews prior to an actual official collection of the stories. There also happen to be flood stories in almost every religion, maybe a coincidence, maybe not. I don't recall anything about a firmament in the bible though.
>>31371952All knowing beings dismiss the possibility of prediction. God knew what was going to happen before it happened. Therefore, he allowed it to play out the way it did and pointlessly prolong the suffering.
>>31371474Lucky for us there appear to be a few animal species with some sapience around us. Some of them have cultures of their own, but morals, now that would be a though question.
>>31372000That is a movie, a good movie but not on the bible.>>31371990It havesa purpose, it is a social construct. it is a way to unite people under an umbrella, the thing that is important is that people believed in that, it doesn't matter that your militant atheism says otherwise.
>>31371575No, I am not the guy you were originally talking to. I'm the guy who chimed in and called you out on not knowing what the fuck you were talking about.Which is fairly relevant because you don't know the first thing about what you're talking about at any level of the discussion.I get that you're a moral absolutist. That's cute and all. But you clearly haven't made it your business to know the counter arguments to it just the same as you didn't bother to find out what the life of a serf was, or what slavery was like in the ancient world, and so on and on and on.Which means I get to not take you seriously and call you a fucking dumbass. Because you give me no other choice, since the alternative would be to tutor you on every one of the many things you don't know and there's just no way I'm willing to do that without getting paid.
>>31372000More specifically, Moses was adopted into the Pharaoh's family. Moses is not even a Jewish name, it is an Egyptian name.The whole story, when looked at from a historical perspective, seems to be desperate to make him into a Jew instead of an Egyptian. Strange that it would mirror the story of the long dead Sargon of Akkad.
>>31371929https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/4?lang=eng Verse 21 click "but"Joseph Smith translation awww yeaaahhh
>>31371990Well, you know, he could be erased from the records for political purposes - or by some good old jewish bribing.
>>31372051>it is a social construct.A social construct based on blood sacrifice and brutality.A social construct based around such things should not exist in a civilized society.
>>31360113>>31360385>>31361639>>31362475read paradise lost, Satan did nothing wrong, he rebelled against tyranny and then sought to spite it for the rest of forever because he can't over come it. but until the end times when he gives it his all, he will never stop harrying the enemy.a celestial robin hood, stealing from the holy to give to the damned
>>31370362Absurd and untrue are two different concepts. A few centuries ago, the idea that man could conquer the sky was absurd. The idea we would still have wars after gas and machine guns was absurd. The idea we could have wars in a post-nuke age was absurd. The idea we could be rused by governments in an information age was absurd. Frankly, if someone could provide enough proof to me tomorrow that the moon landing was faked in order to build up the support for an actual moon landing, I'd believe it.
>>31369436That's fine and all, but why do you need a god at all if your god is meaningless?That it feels nice to have someone to blame for things?
>>31372084>Well, you know, he could be erased from the records for political purposesWhy?"Hey, this random Jew started preaching some shit that people didn't like, so he was executed." This isn't exactly the kind of shit that merits tabula rasa. >or by some good old jewish bribing.Yes, because the Jews were just rolling in money at the time, and that the province in question wasn't one of Roman Empire's poorest and most irrelevant provinces.
>>31371990>Likewise, Jesus did not exist.by the standards of ancient historical evidence he is well documented. arguments against his existence usually rely on the fact that the general public don't realize how patchy ancient history is.the argument that jesus didn't exist because the records aren't perfect would also force us to conclude that most other people from the era didn't exist.
>>31372061Really? It is not that weird, Akkadian mythology and egiptian mythology kinda fuse a bit, as Greek and other.>>31372103Well, hello there every civilization did it at some point or another. It was the norm and in some religions today it keeps happening, so yeah, there is no point shouting about it like a drama queen, It won't stop what already happened and it won't stop all African diaspora from sacrificing chickens today or tomorrow, specially here.
>>31372062>Joseph SmithThe man was a cult leader. I trust his word no more than I do L Ron Hubbard.
>>31372061A lot of stories mirror other ones. Guess humans like to see some aspects repeated over and over again in new clothing.
>>31371990>Jesus did not existJesus certainly did exist, even if he wasn't the Son of God and didn't perform the miracles described. There is plenty of evidence from the Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus and plenty of other historical sources. Your analysis of the evidence is being clouded by your dislike of religion.Just google: non-bilbical evidence for Jesus.There is not a single historian who pretends that Jesus didn't exist, although that doesn't mean he existed to the same degree as described in the bible.>>31371997What you are talking about is the issue of Divine Foreknowledge. God knew that the Pharaoh was a cruel and brutal dictator who would do things like double their labour cost and such.God, as an omniscient agent who clearly has the best wishes for humanity in mind - as revealed in the bible decided that this was the best course of action even if the Pharaoh was not going to immediately yield.>>31372051Prince of Egypt was 10/10>>31372125Paradise lost is biblical fanfiction. It is not canon.
>>31372186Fuck you're thick. Okay, since sarcasm apparently doesn't register with you.A group of nomads from mesopotamia wander over to Egypt, wind up in a shitty position, and then when an Egyptian prince leads them out, they need to bullshit a reason that he's not an Egyptian, but a Jew like them. Someone remember a story about an old king back in the old country who was sent down river in a basket of reeds and pitch, and thinks "I got it, that's how we'll make our guy a Jew!"Also, there was not that much blending between Akkadian and Egyptian mythology.
>>31372295>plausible, therefore true
>>31372295But the Jews never went to Egypt, that's a pretty well proven fact.
>>31372217>Jesus certainly did exist, even if he wasn't the Son of God and didn't perform the miracles described. There is plenty of evidence from the Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus and plenty of other historical sources. Your analysis of the evidence is being clouded by your dislike of religion.All of which come from over 50 years beyond the supposed life and death of Jesus.Yup.100% reliable sources, those ones. A lack of any contemporary sources for the life of Jesus certainly don't point to him being a widespread myth of a man who never was.>There is not a single historian who pretends that Jesus didn't exist,There are several.
>>31372191You see, that is indo-European mythology for you, For example in every mythology there is a Sky god fighting against a Snake/Reptilian/Water Monster.Like Thor vs Midgard Serpent, Indra vs Vitra, Timat Vs Marduk, Zeus Vs Typhon, Set and Ra vs Apophis, Svarozich vs Chimalnik (Or however that is written), The whole Thatua De Dannan (Lugh) vs the Fomorian armies (Balor) (That are somehow associated with water) and I can't think of another but that is a lot of cultures.
>>31372341Then all of Exodus was false to begin with. Which therefore brings (and rightly so) the accuracy and infallibility of the bible.But regardless. Even within the constraints of it's own narrative, God is immoral for his actions in Exodus, regardless of their historicity.
>>31372349Frankly I don't really care about your opinions. They are meaningless to me when historians will call you out as wrong. This was a debate about the morality of God, not a debate about the existence of Jesus.
>>31372191Or what's more likely is the stories change over time due to the fact that they were all oral traditions. A generations long game of telephone, played on a mass scale.
>>31372388Blame the one that shifted the topic from animal sacrifice to human sacrifice via Jesus.
Now, my problem is, that in the biblical times, miracles small and great were much more common than in the modern times, even though we have more people, and very good ways to communicate over the whole globe. How come there is no exact evidence about mass miracles, or angels descending from the heavens? These times might be much more testing for the faith as ever before, why doesn't God back this religion up with strong miracles? Same might be true for other religions - these don't seem to have such great miracles either.
>>31372349To be fair, miracle workers were really fukken common back then.I saw something a long time ago about some other guys who never got as big as Jesus that would fast until it rained, or heal the sick. Someone like Jesus definitely existed.
>>31372402Also, they want their gods doing the cool stuff.
>>31372431There are still as many miracles as before, we just have explanations for nearly all of them these days.
>>31372217>TacitusDoes not directly mention Jesus>Pliny the YoungerDoes not mention Jesus at all, only the cults of Christianity.>Josephushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_JesusMore specifically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Arguments_challenging_authenticity
>Worshiping a cruddy Jewish heresy
>>31372433Someone like him? Sure. There's always been hustlers and conmen.The figure himself? Unlikely.
>>31360113Who did God kill? Baby killers, rapists, all-around assholes? Yeah I have no sympathy for the canaanites that God and the Israelites killed. I also feel no pity for the Israelites either. They had God's favor and completely fucked it up multiple times and were punished for their fuck ups
>>31372526>Who did God kill?Everyone on earth except for one family.
>>31372485you ignored this >>31372184
>>31372526You summed this up perfectly. Yes, God killed a bunch of people but they were all evil people deserving of death.
>>31372537Why? Because they fucked everything up. They were wicked people, the whole damn lot of them. Only Noah and his family were found righteous and therefore God spared them. It's not like the people who died are these completely innocent and carefree folks until Big Bad God came around. They were the worst of the worst and deserved it.
>>31372558That sounds terrible when you say it that way. You also have to remember that in those times, the person that killed more enemies was better, Darker times and it happened everywhere.
>>31372683Well... I could also point out that the definition of wicked for YHVH is anyone that doesn't worship him.
>>31372683>They were the worst of the worst and deserved it.What were their crimes, as stated in the bible.
>>31372683Well there's no evidence for all of humanity being derived from a single family a few thousand years ago.Checkmate christfags
>>31372780>11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.violence, apparently.
>>31372794And there also the others, who did not leave any descendants or whatsoever.
>>31372683>Dehumanisation Don't worry, it's ok to kill them, they're all terrible people. Why? Because I said so in my book.
>>31372818Woah... a Storm/Justice/War God saying the world is filled with violence. Well, that is something new.
>>31372780From the Book of Genesis, Chapter 6: "11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways."So they were exceptionally violent and corrupt in their ways. The previous verses say that "9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God." So only Noah was blameless in God's eyes in a world full of corruption and violence. Which is why He spared Noah and his family.
>>31372363Heracles vs the Hydra, Tezcatlipoca vs Cipactli
>>31372859Still, almost all religions kills everyone on earth atleast once or twice, accidentally or just because.The only thing I think is werid is that most religions get worse as you get more people, In christian mythology everyone is better than the humans before the water.
>>31362475That's the absolute worst example of an irrational, bureaucratic hell. Satan ran an efficient, democratic, and apparently meritocratic government. Policy was decided by parliamentary vote after free debate and tasks were carried out by the most qualified angel (e.g. Mammon leading prospectors for gold to build Pandemonium, Satan undertaking the journey to Earth).Milton's politics were pretty weird, man.
>>31372900Whose metric are we using to measure righteousness? Is it universally agreed upon? Where is the voice of the people? Down with tyranny! Down with YHVH
>>31372818God: "Hey, Satan! Get this, the other day I woke up and thought I would check out how that whole earth thing was going. So I go over to look and there were people killing each other! Everywhere! Fuck, I thought I had put an end to all that with Cain."Satan: "You damn, that's pretty crazy. So what are you going to do about it?"God: "Well, I grabbed the nearest angel -- it was Death, actually -- and we talked it over. What he said made a lot of sense. Clearly the solution is to kill everyone."Satan: "Uh, bro, listen. You know; this kinda shit is why Luci-"God: "But I thought about it and don't really want to put in all the work of restarting everything and making new humans that have both free will and can't do evil things. I could do it since I'm omnipotent, but 'Two and a Half Angels' is on in like an hour."Satan: "Yeah, you should just have me and the other guys go down and test them and reform them. Maybe send your son down, he's been itching to go redeem some people and I thi--"God: "So I am going to give visions to this one guy and his family and have them make a boat before I flood the world. Then they can commit incest with each other and repopulate the world after it all dries out. Pretty smart, huh?"Satan: "...."
>>31373003Atheist humour is so unfunny.I get that you don't believe in God - me neither. But why do you have to be so fucking cringy about it.
>>31373044If there was a cringe involved there, it comes entirely from putting actual facts into a conversation. It was not intended to be funny -- it was intended to illustrate how stupid the entire concept is.
>>31372962The voice of the people was nailed to a cross by people who feared his power. But that's besides the point.
>>31364840I think the "Lololol YHWH trolld u" explanation is that they already knew the good, which is by definition obeying god. The name of the fruit was misleading, because "knowledge of evil" is just literally synonymous with disobeying god - evil has no independent existence. So they already knew what was good (obeying god) and that it was good, Eve was just fucking stupid and did a thing she knew was wrong because broads, amirite?
>>31359885> implying anyone on /tg/ knows what a non-alternative hell even looks like.> implying hell in it's fullness currently exists> implying the lake of fire and hell are synonymous> implying demons/satan have any power or autonomy in hell to torture or afflict anyone.> implying poor eschatology
>>31364973Well, if you don't agree on the grounds for hell's existence, you can't very well come up with an effective one.
>>31366979And fart gags!
>>31360113>The finest trick of the devil was not to persuade you that he does not exist. Instead, it was to persuade you that he is both justice and mercy, and that you liberator is to be feared.I'd heard the first bit from The Usual Suspects, but the second part blew my mind.
>>31373197Yeah, but only the KJV actually makes the distinction between the different types of hell so people just assume that there is a single hell. For anybody that doesn't know, hell is split into two:Sheol, a temporary hell akin to purgatory in the catholic tradition.Gehanna, the 'lake of fire' revealed in revelations where people who reject God are thrown to burn for eternity/to have their soul destroyed.Then there is Tartarus where the devil is kept.Also, I haven't read about this in ages but there is something called Abraham's cradle which is sometimes used synonymously with Sheol to refer to a place where people can escape. I don't know the exact name of it.->>31364973>Hey guys, lets make a hell!>WHAT MAKES GOD SO GOOD, HUH? WHO'S HE TO JUDGE MEAnd people say daytime /tg/ isn't shit.Wow, you have managed to sum this whole argument up better than I have been able to do in around fifteen paragraphs of general debating. God is omniscient and omnipotent and so he always knows the best course of actions, but he is also omnibenevolent - even without divine command theory we can see through commandments of God and Jesus that he is clearly a good person with the best interests of humanity in mind - "love your neighbour, turn the other cheek" and all that. God is great and if we accept his omniscience, then we should accept his moral choices.
>>31373352What proof is there that we live in a universe with an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god?
>>31373352>even without divine command theory we can see through commandments of God and Jesus that he is clearly a good person with the best interests of humanity in mindI'm not sure if that is as clearly true as the manner in which you said it implies
So I'm reading up on early Christian heresies and what's going on with this father, son and holy spirit thing?Everyone seems to have conflicting ways of viewing it, how do the modern churches deal with this?
>>31369463>Unverifiable, therefore meaningless.Man, I wanted Positivism to be true, too, but it just isn't.
>>31370063>taking genesis as a literal and scientific account of what happenedGo back to Louisiana or Texas or whatever fundie shithole you come from.
>>31373445*>>31373453No, it certainly isn't.Without Divine Command theory were have no real way of determining what is good so it's impossible to determine whether the actions of God are actually good. I personally think that they are but I cannot derive my reasoning from anything tangible - I just feel that "love your neighbour" is intrinsically good.>>31373497Oh God, this is a long story.I personally prefer protestant views on the trinity, whereby each are simply separate aspects of God. But there is also the idea that the holy spirit if simply the power of God, and Jesus is his son and God the Father is the actual God.Gnosticism makes a LOT of sense to me, but it makes a lot of Jesus' actions meaningless because he wasn't really experiencing the human condition.>>31373510Positivism is correct in this situation since it's a question of whether God exists or not. If we were talking about the nature of God, then I would agree that positivism is completely pointless. Personally, I think the only way to discuss it is through analogical language as Aquinas suggested. Also, since we're on the subject of religious language and religion I think Basil Mitchell made a good argument in his principal of the Partisan which argues that the only true way to determine the existence of God is through faith.
>>31370063Well... The floods might be true...someone flooding something is like a story from most Northern Mythologies.
>>31359992so...basically ressurection from requiem?
What if God and Satan have heard of themselves, but don't realize that they're being referred to?>Boy, this guy sounds like a total dick.And the people in Hell have heard of Hell and how terrible it's supposed to be, but they call it by another name and don't realize "Hell" refers to the place they live in?>Wow, that place sounds like a shithole.
>>31373563Why is that wrong?It was taken as the truth in the past.
>>31373630The Deluge myth is nigh omnipresent.
>>31359978Slowpoke here. I have the feeling Dante may have beaten you by several centuries. The lustful are eternally tossed about by sudden winds held just out of army's reach of their worldly desire (he may or may not have specified LUST = MUTUAL FORNICATION but it's adaptable regardless), the slothful are forced to run laps around hell with the whips of devils pushing them on with each attempt to stumble and catch their breath, and the wrathfully are trapped immobile in the earth up to their necks and left furiously cursing the heavens and their fate forever.But now I need to go browse Wikipedia, since I'm horribly sleep deprived and can't remember the other punishments in the Inferno
>>31360000>>31359995I like it, it's a 1984-style hell.
in an attempt to derail this thread back onto its original subject, why don't we talk about non-abrahamic hells?in buddhist mythology, the lowest of the six realms of existence where beings can be reborn is "naraka", the hell realm, which is seperated into cold hells and hot hells. like other elements of buddhist cosmology, your stay in this realm is said to be finite before you return to the cycle. this is perfect for avoiding any moral arguments because your stay in hell is not determined by a deity but is simply part of the course of nature.some choice hells (taken from wikipedia):>Sañjīva, the "reviving" Naraka, has ground made of hot iron heated by an immense fire. Beings in this Naraka appear fully grown, already in a state of fear and misery. As soon as the being begins to fear being harmed by others, their fellows appear and attack each other with iron claws and hell guards appear and attack the being with fiery weapons. As soon as the being experiences an unconsciousness like death, they are suddenly restored to full health and the attacks begin again. Other tortures experienced in this Naraka include having molten metal dropped upon them, being sliced into pieces, and suffering from the heat of the iron ground.>Saṃghāta, the "crushing" Naraka, is surrounded by huge masses of rock that smash together and crush the beings to a bloody jelly. When the rocks move apart again, life is restored to the being and the process starts again.>Raurava, the "screaming" Naraka, is where beings run wildly about, looking for refuge from the burning ground. When they find an apparent shelter, they are locked inside it as it blazes around them, while they scream inside. these are all "hot" hells but the cold ones are pretty boring.
>>31359885D&D 4th edition of hell is pretty amazing. Specially because hell is clearly just another god sphere. Unless you count the abyss as hell. Then yeah, it's even more fucking awesome.
>>31373875Why not the greek Underworld?
>>31373875I wouldn't really call it "Hell" much more an Underworld.My favorite ironically is Helheim, cold place that is inside Nifleheim(In some accounts) There is a river around it called Gjoll (Means Noisy) that cuts everything it touches making the only way to enter it through a bridge protected by a giantess. On the other side of the bridge there is a Forest made of iron, where the mother of Fenrir, Hel and the world snake lives and does nothing all day.The place is filled with vicious creatures that sometimes do things to their inhabitants, but the people in Helheim have only boring and cold unlife, nothing with torture unless you are a Kinslayer or an Oathbreaker.If you are any of those two you go to the Corpse Bay "Nastrond", where Nidhoggr sometimes eats people while gnawing on the world tree.
>>31362790>once your number comes up, they lose your documentation>back to the end of the line
>>31374002does that qualify as a hell? in my mind, "hell" implies a place of great suffering, while (correct me if I'm wrong) the greek underworld is just where souls sort of hang around.also, here are some hells (also courtesy of wikipedia) from the hindu version of naraka. again, your stay in hell is finite, eventually you have to go back to being reincarnated. however, your stay in hell is judged by a god this time - lord yama, who decides where people should go appropriate to their virtues or their sins.>Asipatravana/Asipatrakanana (forest of sword leaves): The Bhagavata Purana and the Devi Bhagavata Purana reserve this hell for a person who digresses from the religious teachings of the Vedas and indulges in heresy. The Vishnu Purana states that wanton tree-felling leads to this hell. Yamadutas beat them with whips as they try to run away in the forest where palm trees have swords as leaves. Afflicted with injury of whips and swords, they faint and cry out for help in vain.>Shulaprota (pierced by sharp pointed spear/dart): Some people give shelter to birds or animals pretending to be their saviours, but then harass them poking with threads, needles or using them like lifeless toys. Also, some people behave the same way to humans, winning their confidence and then killing them with sharp tridents or lances. The bodies of such sinners, fatigued with hunger and thirst, are pierced with sharp, needle-like spears. Ferocious carnivorous birds like vultures and herons tear and gorge their flesh.>Lalabhaksa (saliva as food): As per the Bhagavata Purana and the Devi Bhagavata Purana, a Brahmin, a Ksahtriya or a Vaishya husband, who forces his wife to drink his semen out of lust and to enforce his control, is thrown in a river of semen, which he is forced to drink.the original magical realmthere are tons more than I can post here so take a look for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_%28Hinduism%29#Description_of_hells
>>31374322Well, Hades haves like three parts. The field of Asphodel, where people just hang out without memories of their past shodows of their former selves that just wander without a place to go or things to remember, they are just forgettable people , Then there is the good part of Hades.Elysian Fields It is a place heroic people go for doing heroic things or being exceptional, remembering everything after drinking from the fountain of Mnemosine it is said that people like Aristotles is here.And then Worst part of Hades is Tartaros, you know a place for Ironic torture, In here we have, Sysiphus, Ixion, Tantalo, the 4 of the 5 male titans and other people that made fun of the gods. So even if it is a horrible place to go, there are worse places.
>>31373080The cringe comes from assuming Satan is ARGUING TOWARDS KEEPING HIS HATED ENEMIES ALIVE.
>>31373684That could possibly be from homogenization from missionaries. Cultures were unusually moldable back in the day, though they had NOTHING on how easy it is to shift today's culture.
>>31373875I still find the Aztec afterlife to be amazingly appropriate for a PC-based death. Most people who died went to Mictlan, where they were sent on a massive journey that took at least four years, aided by the dog that they were buried with and their spirit guide: Xolotl. The challenges they faced along the way included prairies consisting of nothing but knives facing upwards, mountains that crash together, and a river of blood surrounded by bloodthirsty jaguars. When you made it through all 9 levels, you were seen as worthy to join the gods in eternal feasting.Unusually, there were multiple afterlives for those who died from special circumstances that let them skip the "trial" bullshit of Mictlan. Warriors and sacrifices joined the morning sun in its eternal expedition. Mothers who died caring for a child joined the evening sun in its other eternal expedition. People who died from all the rain and diseases of Tlaloc joined him in paradise.
Heaven stands atop a grand stairway leading into the golden skies, Hell is the base of this staircase. It is a slum, the slummest of slums, where buildings are crushed down to tiny, filthy huts by the gravity of sins and despair. The sinners trudge through the mud that has gathered, unable to even glance up at the heavens that gleams above their heads. Should any sinner dare to step onto the stairways of heaven, the stairs grow more numerous beneath their feet, sending the heavens even higher into the sky, farther away from their touch.
>>31375253pretty good, I like it. interesting implication there is that heaven and hell might, at one point, have been very close together.
>>31375253So does that mean to gain absolution you need to climb up the outside of the staircase or something?
>>31375518Perhaps flight is necessary.
>>31371632aaah the KJV is the best thing Christianity has done if you're dumping that just dump the whole enterprise
>>31372190Man, "cult leader" is just a content-free slur.Especially aimed at someone for whom "counterfeiter" and "pedophile" are so readily at hand.
>>31375518To gain absolution just run backwards up the stairs
>>31374952Satan (the Miltonian, interesting one) would just congratulate himself for being both smarter and juster than the almighty.
>>31373665So was believing that D&D caused witchcraft....Note, religious fanatics are imbeciles with very little connection to reality and if they ever gain power they threaten everyone with it.
Hell is like a beach. Except the beach is very trashy like someone covered up with a garbage dump with lots of sand, and then a college party happened on top of it.
>>31359885An inverse earth.Take the (presumably spherical planet) geography of the world and it looks like that in hell, except on the inside of the core. If one were standing in the US, one could look straight up and see china. Think ring-worlds except and entire sphere. The world also has what appears to be horrifying creatures living daily lives that attack the denizens of hell on sight. These creatures are actually avatars of people in the real world just mimicking every action of the living.In the real world these same beasts appear, but they are the avatars of people currently in hell. The misunderstanding generally leads to people in the real world attacking these hellspawn avatars. People in hell can be killed an experience the full pain of death, but quickly "respawn" in hell again. The only way they can avoid pain is by never being killed: which means they either hide from the mirror civilizations or they become better at killing so they never die. Just came up with idea, embellish it with what you want if you think it's an interesting enough idea.
What is hell? Hell is a place that you /must/ get out of.By this, I do not mean that hell is a horrible place of torture which you want to escape from, nor even that the goal is to reach heaven or return to earth. No, by being in hell your very soul is twisted so that it loses all motivation but the desire for escape.Leaving hell is the terminal goal, and hell's diabolic compulsions /will/ overwrite all of your other motivations with this, sooner or later. You will forget your desires, your loves, your ideals, even those avarices and indulgences which might be called sin by some. All you will know is the desperate, all-consuming desire to escape hell; all other wants and needs pale before this overwhelming desire.And hell is not a desolate place. Small magics still work; the powers of the soul in particular retain much of their mortal-world effectiveness. There are resources you can use, plans you can make. Gather enough souls- perhaps every other soul in hell- and you might be able to build a magic ritual that can truly free you from hell.But you won't. Because everybody else is thinking the same thing, and everyone else wants to leave just as desperately and reasonlessly as you do. Hell is an eternal plane of anarchy, betrayal, and mindless war, and it is all the worse for it is all caused by the people that inhabit it. Welcome to hell.
Hmmm... Hell, eh? Isn't that a city in Missouri or something like that? A true hell would be the expected atheistic afterlife sans nonexistence. You are there. Nothing else is. Like being awake but with your eyes closed and your ears popped so you can't hear, sleep paralyzed and can't move, just floating, feelingless.I actually used it as a curse once in a 2edgy4u way: "I hope the atheists are right, because that means, when you die, no one will care. Hell means someone, somewhere, some god or devil, watched and cared about you and what you did. So I hope that's wrong. Because the best result for every living thing around us is if you died, and all memory of your existence was erased, filling a pointless life with no reason and no rationality, that you truly are worthless to all things."
ALWAYS LOOK ON THE BRIIIIIIIGHT SIDE OF LIFE!Y'all bore me.
>>31378969So, a Dyson sphere earth. I like it.>>31379507I might just use that sometime, it fits with a plot for a campaign I'm planning.
You re-live your life in retrospect, except 1 person you loved in life is now gone forever. There are never more people around than you ever met in your life, and each time you die, one more disappears. This continues until there is no-one left. Then you start forgetting who you were, what you did, everything you enjoyed, and everyone you loved. Little by little all the details of you are stripped away, and recollection becomes impossible. Time means nothing at this point. You cling to memories now made blurry by the constant revision every time and every time you lived again. Then you're alone, but with an active, conscious stream of thought. Then you drift through an endless pall of unrecognizable forms, unable to communicate with or even comprehend your surroundings. And you're slowly all the while forgetting what it meant to be alive, what made you want to be. But you can't help but be, and what you are is trapped in nothingness, unable to scream, but unable to stop wanting to do so. Desperately, you want to feel, but know not how to anymore, but deep down you feel like if you just keep trying you can remember. That never happens.
The most important factor in making "hell" is hope.
>>31364182It's like Judeo-Christianity/Islam combined with Hinduism.I like it.
>>31382063That sounds a lot like a really heavy acid trip I once had. A few trips, actually...
>>31360385Satan giving people free will is a good deed? What would happen if Satan would not do that? They'd remain stupid but happy. God killing people occasionally What would happen if God would not do that? More and more evil people, more and more unhappy people turning evil. God giving people the world to live and rule - a good action? Look at that world and what humans have made of it. Devil tempting people - a bad action? Well, a nice way of population regulation, spreading the lambs from the goats etc. You never know for sure what is good andd what is bad.
>>31360113Satan is God's prosecutor.