obscure christian mythology threaddamn this shit is so damn cool how can I adapt this for a game
Best to avoid real-world current religionYou don't want to know how much trouble I got into showing my players my character sketch for a Muhamad character
>>30827650Christian religion these days is a bit separate from old school christian mythology.It's why angels and cherubs are white people with togas and wings, and not the bizarre radiant alien creatures they were described as.After all, angels covered themselves entirely with their wings in order to not burn out the eyes of anyone who looked at them.Basically, if you want to steal some stuff from it for inspiration you probably can. After all, people use leviathans all the time, and that's technically obscure christian mythology.
>>30827684>Christian religion these days is a bit separate from old school christian mythology. It's why angels and cherubs are white people with togas and wings, and not the bizarre radiant alien creatures they were described as.It is worth noting though that in the gospels angels are described as men dressed in white who could be mistaken for beautiful humans.
This will be a good start, OP.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testament_of_Solomon
>>30827650>Best to avoid real-world current religion
>>30827631>obscure christian mythology threadGospel of Eve. Look it up.Most of it got burned though because it was too distasteful to the conservative clergy.
>>30827760Go be a fedoralord elsewhere and cry about "oppression". As with any religion (even the lack of them)It's a loud zealous minority that gives the rest a bad name
>>30827778Considering there's about a paragraph and a half left of it, there's not much to work with.>>30827631Standard is to rip shamelessly from the Book of Enoch. Which has the advantage of being both fucking old and not, strictly speaking, canon in any church.
The real grievances against Jesus are stated by the learned author of Tela Ignea Satanœ (the fiery darts of Satan) to be two in number: 1st, that he had discovered the great Mysteries of their Temple, by having been initiated in Egypt; and 2nd, that he had profaned them by exposing them to the vulgar, who misunderstood and disfigured them. This is what they say:"There exists, in the sanctuary of the living God, a cubical stone, on which are sculptured the holy characters, the combination of which gives the explanation of the attributes and powers of the incommunicable name. This explanation is the secret key of all the occult sciences and forces in nature. It is what the Hebrews call the Scham hamphorash. This stone is watched by two lions of gold, who roar as soon as it is approached. The gates of the temple were never lost sight of, and the door of the sanctuary opened but once a year, to admit the High Priest alone. But Jesus, who had learned in Egypt the 'great secrets' at the initiation, forged for himself invisible keys, and thus was enabled to penetrate into the sanctuary unseen.... He copied the characters on the cubical stone, and hid them in his thigh; after which, emerging from the temple, he went abroad and began astounding people with his miracles. The dead were raised at his command, the leprous and the obsessed were healed. He forced the stones which lay buried for ages at the bottom of the sea to rise to the surface until they formed a mountain, from the top of which he preached."
How about the classic Behemoth, Leviathan and Ziz?Or monkfishes who are headshaved monks with tunic and tentacles.
Also giants, dragons, unicorns and many standar fantasy creatures are canon in eatly bibles.
>>30827790I smell butthurt
>Implying all of the coolest bits of mythology aren't from the old testamentFace it. Christianity is Judaism for casuals and also hippies.>>30827790pls. I've actually read the Torah and God is a fucking asshole.
>>30827790Then I suppose you'd never use a golem on a fantasy game ever, or dragons for that matter, since they're all from real-world religion mythologies.
The Bible is also full of badass characters.
>>30829165Man, dragons are literally Satan according to Russian Orthodoxy.
>>30827790Oh boy. Here we go!
Demiurg beliefs are funnay. Best read up on tinfoil hat Freemason Theories and maybe Daeniken. Though this is a somewhat different direction. Just read wikipedia on the earlier Christian sects, they had cool beliefs going on.
>>30827790I find it funny how butthurt you can get from a post that doesn't even imply anything. Projecting much?
>>30828407Giants as in the nephilim?I love the concept of those.
>>30829248Nephilim literally means "Fallen Ones". The name refers to both the angels who bred with men as well as the children they sired. Keep in mind that as angels are basically cosmic horrors this whole plotline is closer to Lovecraft's writing than to standard fantasy.It is, like most of such myths, not canon and part of the Kabbalah - the jewish tradition of Mysticism, running parallel to Christian Gnosticism. Both have a lot of common concepts such as upper and lower realms or humans being able to work miracles by calling on angels.
Anyone else looking forward to Noah?I wish the cool parts of the Abrahamic myths were seen in fiction more often, instead of just being stuck with the lame canon stuff. I guess it's easier to make fun stories out of dead religions than still living ones.
>>30828407It's important to note that the Unicorn mentioned in the bible is nothing like your standard fantasy unicorn.It wouldn't fit on the ark so Noah had to tie it onto the side.Its horn was once mistaken for a mountain.
>>30829551How big was this fucking ark?
>>30829511It half looks neat, and half looks terrible. Which is a fun balance.Definitely impressive the level of detail they've gone for. The ark not looking like a boat, the presence of Watchers, more than 2 animals.
>>30829561450'x75'x30'Yeah, that must have been hilarious.
Testament: Roleplaying in Biblical Times.
>>30829155>Implying all of the coolest bits of mythology aren't from the old testamentsomeone hasn't read revelation
>>30827742Time for IMPORTANT DISTINCTIONSThere are angels of lesser power who do resemble impossibly beautiful humansNow where's my picture of the sephirot...
>>30829173Samson cool as shit
>>30830156Couldn't find it so here's the life cycle of the Pfiesteria Piscicida
>>30830210Google is my friend
The angels in Bayonetta were pretty rad
>>30830275I fucking hated these guys.
Use Gnostic text and Revelation, which may have been Gnostic in origin. They also believed in Sophia as a personification of the Holy Spirit. Also Asherah was an early female deity in Jewish belief, you could definitely use her since in the creation myth, the serpent was her pet, so to speak. If you really want something cool, the book of Enoch or the book Adam and Eve might be up your alley as well.
>>30830248Also somewhat accurate minus sexy god, of course
>>30830288Yeah you just have to use the swordYou get a lower score but it does a gorillion times as much damage
>>30830288>Not Gracious and Glorious
>>30831608On non-stop there's really no difference between the two.
>>30830156Angels have no shape, they appear as humans can conceive them. The burning bush was an angel, for example.>>30830345>gnostics>not even more retarded than the catholics>>30829155The american depiction of Jesus as a love-everything hippie always confused me, it's like they never even read one of the gospels.also>believing the torah>Jesus was an angry wizard
>>30832411I don't think he's implying that Gnostics are not retarded, anon. OP is looking for a fantasy setting to play in, not a religion to follow. Gnosticism is twisted enough to make a fun game setting.
look into Byzantine empire stuff. They were early Eastern Orthodox and were really into magic, demons and monsters. Even way back in the day they thought certain items were cursed or blessed to give you powers. Hell, I think they thought Justinian was demon possessed because he walked around at night without a torch and talked to himself. They even had demon hunter hit squads try to assassinate him several times. One primary source wrote that he summoned Hell beasts that resembled dogs to protect himself.
>>30827650Was your group comprised of sandfrican americans, or bleeding heart hippie shits?
Cherubs are metal as fuck. The entire angelic hierarchy is pretty cool.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchyBut of course, the most fun to adapt portion of Christian mythology is Legion. I never tire of Legion creatures or villains. Many-As-One was a brilliant version of this theme, and got me to use Cranium Rats in plenty of my campaigns.
>>30832500Maybe, it just reads a lot like posts on /x/ that no one wants to know about.Still, Gnostic Christianity pretty lame compared to plain Abrahamic religions.Disregarding the modern idea of God in the west, the Abrahamic God is pretty much the single most interesting being ever thought of, the heavenly host has a shitload of cool stuff, saints are awesome, etc.If you want a darker setting, the catholic concepts of demons and the devil, witches, magic, the (popular) inquisition (or even the historical one if you want a morally neutral setting) are all great inspiration.The fall from heaven and the split of the host, the idea that other gods=fallen angels, God getting fed up with human bullshit, tolerating vast amounts of bullshit but going world-ending mad at disrespecting his authority, placing yourself above him, or daring to think your puny "magic" and bone-casting give you any hope of defying his will...Honestly, the Bible is the greatest book ever written, it just reads like shit in English and is painfully slow at times.And that's just sticking to Christianity, you can pretty much get twice as much stuff to work with when you take all 3 religions into equation, with a shitload of thematic variants.When you take the Gnostic approach, it all just turns into hurr evil god, can't do shit, must ask daddy for everything, daddy is love, Jesus is totally good you guys, etc.You may just as well base a setting on the Book of Mormon.
>>30832411It's true that they can appear how they choose, but they're basically sapient constructs of divine will
Can someone please explain gnosticism for me?
>>30834211according to gnostics, humans are trapped in the physical world by an imperfect "god", known as the demiurge. gnosticism teaches that humans should reject physical existence and aspire instead to reach the true spiritual reality, where the real god lives. some gnostics identify the demiurge as yahweh (the old testament god) while identifying jesus with the real god.it's like the matrix basically.
>>30832781>Seraphim (singular "Seraph"), mentioned in Isaiah 6:1-7 are the highest angelic class and serve as the caretakers of God's throne and continuously shout praises: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!"Holy fucking shit, that is horrifying. Eldrich terror from beyond time and space horrifying.
>>30834580The higher-ranked choirs of angels generally are.>>30834415I think that's only one branch of Gnosticism, actually, there's quite a few sects that fall under that label because they're generally defined more on the idea that salvation comes from "gnosis" or "knowledge", and focused on obtaining that secret knowledge that set them apart from the rest of humanity. The trouble is that we've only recently discovered texts written by the Gnostics themselves (and by "recently" I mean, back in the 40's with the Dead Sea Scrolls, religious studies is a REALLY slow-developing field of study), before that point pretty much everything we knew about them came from early church fathers who wrote about why they were wrong and were dirty heretics.Most famously, St. Augustine was actually a member of Manichaenism, which was a widespread and popular form of Gnosticism, before he converted to Christianity.
>>30834415This also reminds me of what the thalmor are trying to do in the elder scrolls games recently.
>>30832411>The burning bush was an angel, for example.The burning bush was fucking God.Otherwise it was impersonating God, and you don't fucking do that.
>>30834876Yeah, this, the burning bush was literally God talking directly to Moses. No messenger involved here.
>>30834840Gnosticism is also the basis for the Blood of Vol religion in Eberron.
>In the last heaven Moses saw two angels, each five hundred parasangs in height, forged out of chains of black fire and red fire, the angels Af, "Anger," and Hemah, "Wrath," whom God created at the beginning of the world, to execute His will. Moses was disquieted when he looked upon them, but Metatron embraced him, and said, "Moses, Moses, thou favorite of God, fear not, and be not terrified," and Moses became calm. There was another angel in the seventh heaven, different in appearance from all the others, and of frightful men. His height was so great, it would have taken five hundred years to cover a distance equal to it, and from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet he was studded with glaring eyes, at the sight of which the beholder fell prostrate in awe. "This one," said Metatron, addressing Moses, "is Samael, who takes the soul away from man." "Whither goes he now?" asked Moses, and Metatron replied, "To fetch the soul of Job the pious." Thereupon Moses prayed to God in these words, "O may it be Thy will, my God and the God of my fathers, not to let me fall into the hands of this angel.
>>30834902But if god talked directly to someone wouldn't their head explode? I mean, that's what Dogma taught me. You're not going to tell me that Kevin Smith films aren't a legitimate source of religious knowledge, are you?
Oh look what I have here, it's a big ol' book of Apocalyptic Literature. Let's pull a few passages out and see what we can get. >1 Enoch 88>"And I saw one of those four who had come out first, how he took hold of that first star which had fallen from heaven, and bound it by its hands and its feet, and threw it into an abyss; and that abyss was narrow and deep and horrible and dark.">"And one of them drew his sword and gave to those elephants and camels and asses, and they began to strike one another, and the whole earth shook because of them.">"And as I looked in the vision, behold one of those four who had come out cast from heaven and gathered and took all the large stars whose private parts (were) like the private parts of horses, and bound them all by their hands and their feet, and threw them into a chasm of the earth."
>>30832411>>30832500>Gostics anything but based Fuck off, pleb scum.
Christian creatures are pretty goddamn cool, though more specifically, it's the demons and angels. I want a setting where all the monsters, demons, and shit are all sharing the same world and it's a glorious mess.
>>30835070All the monsters, demons, and shit of all the world's religions, stories, myths, and legends*
"w-what are you?""ANANGEL"
>>30835070I did some random racial traits for Aasimar with a YHVH-type god.There was an accompanying one for Tieflings too but I lost it.
>>30835070>>30835096Have you ever played any of the Shin Megami Tensei games?
>>30834958>But if god talked directly to someone wouldn't their head explode?that would make the sermon on the mount a much more interesting experience
>>30835113God also directly appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai to give him the 10 Commandments, and while Moses came down visibly a changed man, he still was a man.
>>30835125That's like saying Jesus was just a man. Jesus was an epic level wizard.
>>30835112Not once. Looking into them now, though.
>>30835037Speaking of Angels>1 Enoch 19>And Uriel said to me, The spirits of the angels who were promiscuous with the women will stand here; and they, assuming many forms, made men unclean and will lead men astray so that they sacrifice to demons as gods - (that is,) until the great judgement day on which they will be judged so that an end will be made of them.>And their wives, having led astray the angels of heaven, will become peaceful. >And I, Enoch, alone saw the sight, the ends of everything; and no man has seen what I have seen.And then chapter 20 he gets to naming a lot of important angels.>And these are the names of the holy angels who keep watch.>Uriel, one of the holy angels, namely (the angel) of thunder and of tremors.>Raphael, one of the holy angels (the angel) of the spirits of men.>Raguel, one of the holy angels, who takes vengeance on the world and on the lights.>Michael, one of the holy angels, namely the one put in charge of the best part of mankind, in charge of the nation. >Saraquel, one of the holy angels, who (is) in charge of the spirits of men who cause the spirits to sin.>Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who (is) in charge of the serpents and the Garden and the Cherubim.
>>30835143wizards don't get water walk, only clerics and rangers.jesus, clearly, was a ranger. his favoured enemy was moneychangers.
>>30829612SO DAMN GOODAll my friends are either fedoralord atheists or super-religious, so no one wants to play with me :(
>>30835209Wasn't Uriel the angel sent to carry out the tenth plague of Egypt or am I getting that one from somewhere else?
>>30832781Eh... Legion is used just... TOO often for my liking. Tons of hack demon movies and books use Legion.
>/co/ had a really awesome thread on religion and Christianity last night>now have an awesome thread pointing out some of the weirder shit in Judeo-Christian tradition on /tg/You guys are awesome. I'm a pretty devout Catholic myself, but it's always fun to talk about some of the weirder heresies that have cropped up in its lengthy history. It's always struck me as weird that even though stuff like Enoch and the Sibylline Oracles aren't canon, a lot of our popular imagery regarding angels, heaven and the end times is taken straight from those works.
>>30835070>>30835096That's basically Touhou, though obviously with more attention given to Eastern mythology/religion.Though Sariel was one potential final boss of the first game.
>>30832885>You may just as well base a setting on the Book of Mormon.Actually Dogs in the Vineyard looks pretty interesting...
>>30835308I'd love to play some Testament some time. Going all old testament on the mother fuckers in the name of YHVH. I think some people might call me a fedoralord, but I'd call myself an apatheistic agnostic
>>30835110>33: Attracts frogs>34: Touch burns firstborn children>mfw the ten plagues are my favorite part of the Bible
>>30835369Maybe? Gimme a second and I'll do some research on that.
>>30835369Nah, that was Samael
>>30835113>>30835125That actually did happen at Sinai, according to some rabbis. The first two Commandments were spoken by God to the Israelites directly, which caused them to burst into flames and die. After bringing them back from the dead twice, God got sick of it and had Moses utter the rest of the commandments.
>>30835451>>30835369From what I'm reading, Uriel was the one responsible for checking the doors that were marked by the lamb's blood from Passover and making sure that the Hebrews inside weren't affected by the tenth plague. Wasn't the one that actually did the killing though.
>>30834958He talks directly to people several times in the bible. Revelation says his voice sounds like crashing tidal waves.
>>30835443I remember going to catholic school, my family was baptist and seventh-day Adventist, and my religion teacher was amazed I knew all the plagues by heart. She told me my knowledge of scripture was amazing. I mean that's only two chapters into the book and it's one of the more interesting things in the bible. If you can't remember that much you're screwed.
>>30835431I'm a sorta-religious Jew, and I'd be up for that.If you're willing to poke fun at your beliefs, and to play with other people's beliefs, then you're not a fundamentalist. Fedoralord or otherwise.
>>30835492For Catholics it's actually fairly unimportant.Paul nad the Gospels is what matter.
>>30835469That's fucking funny.
>>30835526Catholics still take the Bible quite seriously even if we don't quote chapter and verse at every opportunity.Just because we don't put AS much emphasis on Scripture as protestants doesn't mean that we think it's unimportant.
>>30835469Didn't He also speak to Moses with His back turned to him, so Moses wouldn't die?
>>30835469That's pretty hilarious.>>30835492My favorite story has always been Elijah vs. the priests of Baal in first Kings.
Rolled 79, 67, 47 = 193>>30835110I'm gonna roll for three. Here we go.Inb4 I fuck up the syntax because I've never rolled here before.
>>30827631I rewrote the entirety of the Evangelion canon to make my AdEva campaign work with classical Christian mythology. NGE angels are aliens doing weird shit for vaguely explained reasons which are damned cool. My angels are organised into the nine traditional angelic ranks, sentient, and can "bless" mindfuck regular humans and grant them the capability to perform miracles.Well, the players like it at least.
>>30835562I don't see anything about that in the actual reading from Exodus, it might be an apocryphal detail.
>>30835597>Fertile without failFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
>>30835587Elijah was pretty fucking awesome> lol, scream louder bitches, maybe Baal can't hear you. Don't mind me as I dump water all over my sacrifice and still get it to light up.
Rolled 55, 21, 42 = 118>>30835110Fuck it, let's give this a shot.
>>30835110need to make aasimars with like 10+ of these traits, that all affect different parts of them. Time to get some real "angelic" aasimars going on.
>>30832885I would TOTALLY base a setting on the book of mormon.
>>30835625Not only got it to light up but it CONSUMED THE STONE ALTAR in the fire.
Rolled 91, 99, 42 = 232>>30835110Might as well.
>>30835618Funnily combined with 79, you'll always know all about your many sons' sons and so on and so forth.
>>30835110>Breath reeks of incense and freshly cut stone>Skin hot to the touch, burns the unrighteous>Compulsively draws circles with ink or finger when idlemite b cool
>>30835677Your justice finger is itchy while not actively burning evildoers.
>>30835625>>30835658You guys sure that was water?Not oil?
So, here's a question for you /tg/:Satan is the snake that makes Eve eat the fruit of Knowledge.Lucifer is the fallen angel that rebels against god.Beelzebub is a philistine god mocked as the lord of flies.Isn't it kinda interesting to see there is an unholy trinity as well, compared to the trinity of the father, the son and the holy ghost?
>>30835694He probably wouldn't have gotten away with that.
>>30835666True. If the patrilineal knowledge goes both ways, and it really is permanent, then I can keep watch on my descendants forever.
>>30835110> mouth and open wounds emit lightHoly shit that is badass
>>30835645I mean, it's possible. You'd just need to divide the body up into parts and have smaller (or equivalent) tables for each part. I don't really have the motivation for it though.>>30835702It's not biblical but Milton's characterful court/hierarchy of devils is pretty tremendous game material.
>>30835702>Satan is the snake that makes Eve eat the fruit of KnowledgeEeeeuuughgh, not really? There's interpretations that claim that it was just a snake. Satan is a different figure in the Old Testament.
>>30835702There's a lot more that you are missing. Like Dagon, as just one example. There's much, much, much, much evil entities. Much more than three.
Rolled 37, 20, 66 = 123>>30835110Fuckit, let's give it a go.
>>30835702But Stan wasn't the snake. Stan is Lucy's new name after he rebelled.
>>30827650....A Muhammad character?You were playing the actual prophet? ...What game would that be a character in?
Rolled 58, 27, 87 = 172>>30835110Rollin'
>>30835560I never said it was unimportant, but I doubt any catholic actually give a shit if their children remember every single minutia of the old testament.
Rolled 16, 10, 5 = 31>>30835110Rollan'
Rolled 30, 21, 62 = 113>>30835753>Oxen's feet>1d20 extra eyes around the body>Body covered in religious scriptSo I'm basically an aasimar satyr with a body that inspires terror wherever I go.
Rolled 39, 66, 52 = 157Let's give 'er a shot.>>30835753>ox feet>extra eyes>scripture tattoosInconspicuous, you ain't.
Rolled 39, 16, 67 = 122>>30835808> black> 27The dice knew.
>>30835810It's still kind of a shame just how poorly read a lot of people nowadays are regarding the bible, and don't know simple well-known stories or quote or even idioms that are from it. >>30835826On the plus side, congrats, you're a cherubim!
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
Rolled 51, 76, 39 = 166>>30835865I never even made that connection. Hell. Yes.
Rolled 91, 100, 88 = 279>>30835110Sounds fun, let's see what we get
>>30835856Even in heaven.
>>30835867Revelation is fucking rad. It's one of only two proper apocalypses to make it in Canon (the other being the latter part of Daniel, Ezekiel kind of sorta doesn't count), and it's by far the weirdest.
>>30835867It's funny how the part that always bothered me with that description was the numbers. 10 horns on 7 heads? INCONCEIVABLE
>>30835369Wrong genocide.Uriel talked to Noah.
>>30835918Because it's written in a highly symbolic, coded language, it's not supposed to make sense on a physical level.
>>30835798Underage Virgin Quest: Exploding Vests of Glory Edition
>>30835883>Metal heats upon touch>Eyes of Sapphire>Lion-like maneWhy do I sound like a bad Mary-Sue character now.
>>30835798Shadowrun. Or possibly Rifts.
>>30835562>>30835614Exodus 33:18-23> Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."> And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.> But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."> Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock.> When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.> Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
>>30835110dice+3d50Rolling for greater glory
>>30835977Oh damn, must've missed that passage, thanks man.
Rolled 11, 20, 29 = 60>>30835986>not putting the line in the right fieldwtf am I doing?
>>30827631/v/ had a Christianity thread last night that was pretty good. Someone brought up the angel Azrael who basically had an eye for every person who has or would be born. When the person dies the eye representing them closes and Azrael basically awaits the day that all it's eyes close and it can finally rest.I think you could make a pretty good villain from that, basically a murderous angel with a really bad case of insomnia.
Rolled 67, 46, 98 = 211Hmmmmm
Rolled 94, 4, 49 = 147>>30835110rollan
>>30836010>Flesh poisonous to beasts>Birthmark of a sword across brow>HydrophobicThat's . . . kind of lame :(
>>30835702>Satan is the snake that makes Eve eat the fruit of Knowledge.This always triggers my autism. It was the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL. It wasn't saying that humans were dumb before the Fall of Man, and they became smart after wards, it was saying they had no experimental knowledge of Evil before the Fall of Man, and afterwards they experienced/learned it. Or something to this effect.Don't even believe it, but it gets on my nerves when people say "HURP NO EAT TREE OF KNOWLEDGE" as though God was forbidding education and not warning about Evil.Fuck. Ok rant over, as you were.
>>30836037>Shadow is luminous and hot to the touch>surrounded by translucent fire in the darkness>cannot speak the name of godsI kind of imagine some awesome ball of fire. Also for some reason it's a Tsundere girl that starts stuttering when she has to pronounce the names of gods.
>>30836040Blame the Flood m8.
>>30836058No, I feel you. I said the same thing in a thread earlier this morning. Really when you think about it, the tree is basically the sin of theft or envy. God made it, says that they can't eat from it, but they take it anyway because they want it. You can't defend that shit.
Rolled 33, 7, 46 = 86>>30835110Rollan.
>>30836058I merely dropped the 'good and evil' bit since I assumed that would be common knowledge around you gentlemen.But I failed pretty hard in that post, seeing how I kinda seperated Lucifer from Satan...
Rolled 21, 61, 14 = 96>>30835110rolling again, cause I want something really messed up
>>30835918>10 horns on 7 heads? INCONCEIVABLEThat's pretty easy, actually. Four heads with one horn each, three heads with two horns each.But more importantly, the seven heads represent Rome.17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Rolled 20, 70, 38 = 128>>30835110Might as well.
Rolled 57, 57, 34 = 148>>30835110
Rolled 89, 2, 44 = 135>>30835110ok, let's see
>>30836114I just hate it when you chop off the second half of the tree's title and misconstrue the meaning of the story to make it seem like God is forbidding wisdom or knowledge, and not evil and decadence. Not even a theist and that gets on my nerves.Same when people miscontrue history or scriptures to make it seem more irrational.>HURP MEDIEVALS THOUGHT THE WORLD WAS ROUND!No they didn't, the World was proved to be a sphere around 300 BC. >HURP medievals didn't use believe in natural laws of physics!This is just insulting. Medieval philosophy is all about orderly progression and perfectly fitting cogs and gears. Order, Elegance, and Aesthetics were their thing.>HURP Medievals didn't use Reason.Which is why dialectics and classical logic flourished, amiright?So many myths just to make a philosophy seem irrational. So annoying.
Rolled 58, 29, 50 = 137>>30835110Let's do this
Rolled 8, 94, 65 = 167>>30835110Let's get angelic up in hurr.
Rolled 57, 40, 79 = 176>>30836224>HURP MEDIEVALS THOUGHT THE WORLD WAS ROUND!To be fair, I'm sure there were SOME that thought it was flat. Peasantry, mostly, should they actually think of it.That belief of mine is completely based on the existence of modern-day people who think the Earth is flat, however.
>>30836224Everyone who knew fuck-all about sailing knew the earth was round. It's fucking visible to the naked eye even.
Rolled 28, 68, 77 = 173>>30836267>Fierce Hatred Of Snakes>Can Kindle Fires By Touch>One Eye Blind And Made Of MetalWhat.
>>30836137No, that's actually fairly accurate according to the Old Testament version, there's a big difference between how Satan was portrayed in, say the Book of Job, versus later Christian theology where he and Lucifer get rolled into one character.
Rolled 6>>30836270Oh boy, I get to roll a random number of wing stumps!
>>30836215>4x1+3x2Sure, but the uneven distribution just really, really bothered me when I was a kid.
>>30835107I can't remember if that was supposed to be a vision or not, but those angels are highly symbolic, which means that whether they're literal forms or not means almost nothing to me.Those two rings of eyes symbolize the idea that this angel has seen everything. They have seen everything there is to see in the universe, and they still proclaim the glory of God. Pretty sure, at least.
>>30836293>Lips Burned From Birth>Torso Withered On One Side>Hands And/Or Feet Are Metallic Eagle ClawsSo this one is some form of horrifically deformed metal-ass eagle.
>>30836322Depending on who you ask, they can also be the literal sentient wheels of God's chariot.
>>30836224Same here. A lot of times it gets rolled into this stereotype of the "dark ages" where education and scientific inquiry were forbidden or forgotten by the Church.
>>30835798I'm guessing a druid in fantasy settings?>split water>locust swarm>let my people goThese are all things a druid can do.
>>30836302But it's even symmetrical!
>>30836364Which is bullshit because the Church preserved historic pagan knowledge, and the "Great Work" of the Scholastics was synthesizing Christian thought with Pagan wisdom.
>>30830248Hey my cousin how are you doing?
>>30836331I can't remember what the lips are from but the torso thing is obviously from the crucifixion and the eagle's claws are from eagle references in Ezekiel and Daniel.
>>30836322And if the literal physical manifestation of an angel is symbolically-based, that makes that form mean "almost nothing"? How so?Angels are (supposedly) symbolic beings. Why should their bodies not be symbolic in nature?
>>30835977>I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.This idea pervades throughout the Judeo-Christian belief system. We've all sinned, and we all deserve divine judgment. We've chosen damnation on ourselves.God showing mercy on us with Jesus, and giving different measures of faith to his believers is him showing mercy and compassion on who he chooses.I think this idea has been nearly lost to most Christians, and non-Christians simply don't know it.Thank you for quoting this scripture. It's put a very fine point on the nature of God's mercy, and I'll try to remember it.
>>30836331I imagine a horribly burned body with a metallic skeleton showing through on it's claw-hands where all flesh is completely burnt away.
>>30836449Oh god, that is hardcore.>>30836437Damn, I need to reread the Old Testament.
>>30836437The lips would be from Isaiah chapter 6:>Then I said, “Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. “See,” he said, “now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged.”
>>30836396>filenameIts the Beast, not the Dragon. Different characters.
>>30836409>and the "Great Work" of the Scholastics was synthesizing Christian thought with Pagan wisdom.If by "pagan wisdom", you mean "Aristotle"But yeah, a lot of theologians throughout the medieval ages were encouraged to read books that were not considered canon or "truth", if only to learn how to refute them better. A lot of them also engaged in scientific research.
>>30836479Yep, that's it.
>>30827684There's a reason that most Angels introduced themselves with the phrase "BE NOT AFRAID!"
>>30836494Both the Beast and the Dragon have the same horn/head setup.
>>30836440It's not that it means "almost nothing."Sorry, it's that I'm totally comfortable with the idea of God making any angel or creature in any shape or form. If God made it, I think it's totally rad, and I totally accept it as divine. Whether it's a really pretty white guy with wings, or some mind-bending double-ring of fire and eyes, I am A-ok with it.Because God makes some pretty awesome things.
>>30836499Pretty sure it was more than him. Plato was already mostly synthesized, and other ancient works were recovered from the Muslims and debated as well.
>>30836504Not all of them appeared like that, often times they disguised themselves as humans. Read Tobit, it's kind of weird, but pretty awesome and no one ever talks about it because it's part of the Septuagint.
My favorite minor bit of christian mythology is an old irish tradition that the devil has three wives, as an expression of how lustful he is. also as an explanation of why he's always fucking around in the world trying to tempt people instead of ruling hell.
>>30836538Lousy Prots, gutting the Bible...
I wonder if anyone on /tg/ is Christian or if you're all fedoracore atheists at heart
>>30836535I'm sure there was, but Aristotle was the biggest influence on Scholastics, especially for Aquinas.Oh, speaking of this topic, did anyone see the new version of Cosmos they're airing now. Made me so fucking mad that they completely misrepresented the life of Giordano Bruno to make him a "martyr for science" when he was more Hermetic and occultist than scientist.
>>30836574I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist. So there is at least one.
>>30836574I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm Roman Catholic.
>>30836574Are those the only choices? I feel like there are a lot more religious groups than Christian and Militant Atheist.
>>30827816>not, strictly speaking, canon in any church.Isn't it canon for the Ethiopian Orthodox Church?
>>30836574I'm with >>30836617.(I love that pic, btw.)
>>30836574I'm a Jew. Hi!
>>30836595I didn't, but I hate this kind of misconstruing of facts to sell a narrative. A LOT of scientists, at least pop sci, know fuck all about history of science or even the nature of the science.If one more person implies to me that Mathematics is a science I will strangle them in their sleep.
>>30836621I don't know any actual Muslims that would dare browse 4chan, and there are no other religions that are as credible as Christianity or as logically consistent
>>30836649Wikipedia says it's canonical for the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church. That's it, though.
>>30836574Apatheistic Agnostic. I believe that you can't prove shit, so believing shit is kind of pointless. If you're a good person and heaven exists, you'll get in, and if it doesn't, you're a decent person and that's it's own reward.
>>30836672There's scientists (people who do science), and then there's scientists (people who hold to the philosophy of scientism).
>>30836679Most of the Buddhists I know are bro as fuck, and the few Hindus and Sikhs I've met are at least alright people.
>>30836705From a fellow agnostic, how do you respond to the typical Christian answer to that, which is "Everyone is shit."?
>>30836574Episcopal brahIn short >>30836617 these guys but more chill about pretty much everything
>>308366791. Being an Atheist does not mean being "fedoracore"B. What is Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or Sikhism?III. You sound so fucking insufferable.
>>30836716>"Philosophy is outdated because it cant' be proved empirically."I want VEHK the Son to personally milk-finger every last "scientist" who has said or who privately believes anything even vaguely resembling this statement. Yes I mad.
>>30836574Can't I not believe in any God(s) while still being intrigued by religion and mythology?
>>30836009>I think you could make a pretty good villain from that, basically a murderous angel with a really bad case of insomnia.Eh, people interpreting "Angel of Death" as "should be a villain because Death is Bad!!" never struck me as a good idea. He works much better as a silent observer or heroic figure
>>30836718"Then noone gets into heaven, problem solved. Now, do you want that pint or can I have it?"I generally only get into religious discussions in the pub, for some reason.
>>30836672Those people are called "scienstismists." They believe in "scientism" - the view that the characteristic inductive methods of the natural sciences are the only source of genuine factual knowledge and, in particular, that they alone can yield true knowledge about man and society.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScientismIt's 9000000% bullshit. "History don't real, only chemistry real!" is just the STEM variant of SJW "only our critical theory and feels are real!">>30836717Sikh people are awesome. If I wasn't happy with my religion then I'd convert to them immediately.
>>30836739I know plenty of people like that. Same way I can be Catholic and still enjoy learning about other religions and other branches of Christianity. >>30836662I have way too many of these jokes saved.
>>30836739Sure, that's just standard aetheist. Make sure you keep ALL your mythology books on the same shelf, and make sure you don't have a go at anyone about their belief choices and you're good.
>>30836741I've always liked the idea of Death personified as a sort of custodian. He's not a monster who deals out murders, or craves for souls, or bargains with people so they can continue living. He's the kind of guy who sits there with you as you pass on, speaks with you, maybe helping you to understand your death or how it will affect your family, offers a cold, skeletal hand, and leads you on to the afterlife, whatever that may be.A very softspoken, friendly character who understands the necessity of his job.
>>30836794So... Gaiman's Death of the Endless?
>>30836760Congratulations on just figuring out Christian philosophy in a nutshell. In short themepark version.Argument:1. Only Good people go to Heaven.2. There are no Good people.3. Therefore everyone should go to Hell.Corollary1. Thats bullshit. 2. Seriously what kind of dickass Deity would allow that state of affairs to continue?3. Solution? We use magic and moralisms to make people Good. Its fucking foolproof.
>>30836741Well I like the idea of him as a sympathetic villain, kind of like how Galactus only destroys planets cause he needs to eat.Azrael wouldn't kill you for the evils. He's killing you because your existence has been keeping him awake for eons and he wants to go to sleep. You're basically the asshole blasting his stereo across the street at two in the morning and Azrael is having no more of your shit. But yeah, I can understand being tired of the whole, death is bad so Death must be bad, thing too.
>>30835957You just sound like a druid.>lion mane>gems of the earth as eyes>heat metal is a 2nd level druid spell
My only gripe with most of /tg/'s fedoras are that they seem to ignore the fact that believing in a lot of what science has "proven" takes leaps of faith as well
>>30836804That's a gross oversimplification.>Only good people go to heaven>There are no good people>therefore, God sent his only Son, Jesus Christ to be sacrificed to reconcile us to God and offer us the grace to be saved>therefore, people who refuse this grace and deny God go to hell
>>30836832Ah! Cool religion, bro. Have you been to the gardens in Haifa?I'm sorry that your people are continually oppressed in Iran. That blows :(
Rolled 39, 32, 44 = 115>>30835110rollan for awesome aasimar
>>30836679I for one believe in no god but Allah and recognize Mohammad (SAW) as his prophet. And I'm on 4chan, browsing. Apparently I am daring.
>>30836672>Watch the rebooted Cosmos>first fucking episode shows the EVIL CHURCH suppressing scienceFuck pop science. We need pop history. Seriously, of all people, why do scientists- or at least pop scientists- know so little about history?
>>30836818I'm also imagining him trying a passive-aggressive "Stop fucking because it makes me need more eyes to handle this shit" plan first.Also really, really hating people that pull immortal bullshit.
>>30836784I don't really fancy discussing belief choices with people in person at all, just like I don't like talking politics. I've no particularly strong opinions on either subject, I just know what makes sense to me.
>>30836852>are that they seem to ignore the fact that believing in a lot of what science has "proven" takes leaps of faith as wellWhoa, buddy, we are not going here. This argument is not going to end well. Science is science because it builds on long traditions of compiled empirical evidence. We draw new paradigms based on new evidence as it arises in order to frame that evidence in a model that can predict and explain natural phenomena. Divine, religious Faith is a completely different thing.
>>30836858>Monotheistic God>has a Son . . . who is also God?>sacrificed his son by sending him to be killed by Romans>brings Son back from the dead>sacrificed-not-sacrificed Son is somehow God forgiving us our sins>"Sin" being "violating the covenant that we made with God."mhhhmJews think you're crazy. Muslims think you're crazy. It's not a good sign that Jews and Muslims agree on you.
>>30836858Unless you're a Calvinist, in which case there's no refusal of grace, you're either one of the elect who gets it and there's no way you can possibly refuse, or you're just shit out of luck.I never did understand Calvinism.
>>30836858Thats why I said it was the themepark version. If we want to get technical the way it works is that evil deeds [or "sins"] become engrained as habits, causing Vices to build up in the Will, eventually inverting the whole Soul so that the Reason is ruled entirely by the Passions and ethical behavior and happiness becomes impossible, at which point the being is said to be "Damned" and is locked in Hell to prevent it from harming the rest of the cosmos, and that the only way to arrest this process is through Christian doctrine and practice, which leads to supernatural virtue and eventually perfection, whereby the Reason rules the Will, which rules the Passions, to the glory of God, the result of which is knowledge and happiness [in the deep, eudaimonia sense, not the merely pleased at the current affairs sense].But thats the long version.
Something I've always been fascinated by is the idea of God bringing forth a flood to cleanse the world of overwhelming evil back in Old Testament times.Assuming that a person takes the word of the bible as a literal chronicle of events, and not a book of parables, what possible condition could the world have been in back then that was so terrible that God felt it necessary to obliterate every last bit of it, yet today, now, is not worse. We have more means to be completely ruthless to each other now than we ever had in the past, and yet somehow it's not quite bad enough for God to declare that it's time for another do-over.
Rolled 39, 1, 40 = 80>>30836868>Body orbited by crossed pair of ethereal wheels>Skin pulses with light, intensifies at holy sites>Lion furDO NOT FEAR MEI AM NEON-CATMOVE ALONG MORTALI AM SIMPLY TRYING TO CATCH THESE WHEELSWHY WON'T THEY STOP MOVING
>>30834938what is this actually cited fromalso if im planning to read the bible is there any specific translation that would be good to read? i have a feeling a lot of them would omit something like "studded with glaring eyes"
>>30836877I just had to read Thomas Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions for one of my grad school classes and it's fascinating. Dense as fuck, but fascinating. I would recommend you read it, because he brings up the same problem, the nature of how we teach Science nowadays obscures the thought processes and paradigms that previous scientists operated under, and thus obscures the process of those scientific revolutions.
>>30836794Or you could go this route.
Rolled 25, 83, 1 = 109>>30836886Another anon here.Belief in empirical evidence is still belief, as is the metaphysics of causality and reasoning. It is simply a more convenient and justifiable type of faith.
>>30836905Calvinism is bullshit. You're predetermined by God to be good or evil, but God punishes or rewards you for following your programming. You don't have free will - but you're held liable for your actions? Nonsense.
>>30836914Sounds like a non-canonical apocalypse narrative.
>>30836794I have a series you might like then.He only shows up in the later seasons (5+ I believe)
Rolled 55, 64, 70 = 189>>30836930Belief in an external world, in an ordered universe with rules that can be learned, in the utility of reason - those are the beliefs that allow someone to value empirical evidence. Empirical evidence, if it's resting on those beliefs, is not something "believed." It becomes fact as a consequence of those underlying beliefs.
>>30836910*constant trance/techno theme follows you around*
>>30836930SO.... what you're saying is that to believe in scientific, empirical proof is to have faith in our own rationality and ability of our senses to correctly inform us?
>>30836905I fucking hate Calvinism. >>30836886Its also because religious people have bought beliefs that don't even make sense traditionally. Faith used to be "Believing in the unseen on the basis of evidence or testimony", now its "Believing [Insert thing] without evidence".People turned faith into such a nonsensical concept no one would possibly defend it, and then tricked people who want to defend a certain religion or system of thought into trying to defend it.Which is why any time I begin one of these "Faith v. Reason" debates I always come down hard on the side of Reason, explaining that "Faith" as the modern concept is a retarded ahistorical mess.
>>30834938Fun fact, a parasang is roughly the equivalent of a league, so those angels are around 1726 miles tall. That's pretty huge.
>>30836963>breath reeks of incense and cut stone>body of light, shadow skeleton>sheep-like teethWoah.
>>30836908Well, if you're taking the Bible literally, it'd probably be because God solemnly swore not to hit the reset button again after the flood.
>>30836931I never liked Calvinism either.Now, Arminianism and Methodists are pretty chill.
>>30836295They were always one character, its just that he was made into an unquestionable bad guy for the Christians. Before, he was just a bloke doing a job.
>>30836978>Faith used to be "Believing in the unseen on the basis of evidence or testimony", now its "Believing [Insert thing] without evidence".I blame protestant fundamentalists, but most of that is in turn a knee-jerk reaction to Materialism and Modernity, so yeah.
>>30837011Well... he said that he would never destroy the world by FLOOD again.
>>30836988....Wut.Oh god. I'm trying to put that in monster movie terms but I don't think I've ever seen one with something roughly 6 times the size of the Empire state building.Moses had balls of steel not to freak the fuck out.
>>30836978>>30836905I think Max Webber's study on Calvinism sheds a bit of light on their belief.I don't know, Calvinism with its NO FUN ALLOWED stance sounds a bit too harsh for me.
>>30837011Y'know, for an omniscient dude he sure has one hell of a character arc; especially if you include the expanded universe (new testament, apocrypha, etc)
I love Christianity/Catholicism as a mythology. Modern Christianity is so boring. God sits on a throne in cloud town and thinks about how gross gay people are.Christian Mythology is full of strange beasts, power struggles, sweet flaming weapons, and what can essentially be describes as de facto polytheism.
I love angelology threads on /tg/, because they always end up with interesting discussions of religion, even people openly stating their personal religious beliefs, with little or none of the usual vitriol such things usually bring on the internet.You guys are alright.
>>30836574Im a Baptist.Protestants and Catholics are both Christians, and I don't get why people separate the two as "Christian" and "Catholic." It's dumb.
>>30837075It's not God that's changed, Catholicism at least teaches that God reveals himself over time, with each part leading into each other. So the OT preludes to the NT, and the NT is a prelude to the establishment of the Church on earth.
>>30837022Arianism is pretty awesome. Arius objected to trinitarian theology at the Nicean Council and was deemed a heretic (and later exonerated and then deemed a heretic again). Christians could have been proper monotheists, instead of this quasi-monotheistic trinitarian oddness.Episcopalians are pretty cool, I have a bunch of friends in that church.
>>30837071Its not its "NO FUN ALLOWED" that kills me, is how utterly unapologetically Evil it is. Theres a few "Calvinism Lites" out there that tune it down, but real hard core Calvinism is basically the story of an Almighty Demon who creates beings with no free will, gets mad at them for doing what He [by hard determism] forced them to do, and then arbitrarily punishes and rewards some, just for his "glory", which is to say, fame from beings who from a technical standpoint aren't even conscious. Calvinism is like if someone let Fedorafags write the Bible. Its horrid.
>>30837064MILES bro. The thing was slightly taller than the united states is vertically.
>>30837101Mah ecumenical brother!That being said though, there are distinct theological beliefs between you guys and us Catholics, so the distinction IS necessary in an academic sense, but we are all still members of the body of Christ after all.
>>30837043Sheep have a plate instead of teeth at the top of their jaw.
>>30836574Atheist.But I don't own a fedora. Infact.... yep. I am completely hatless. No fedora, top hat, tricorne, beret, balaclava, baseball, garrison, fez, or any other sort of hat.Not even a hoodie.
>>30837043baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah>>30837101Protestants denied the Papacy, which is why they're considered separate groups of Christians. Also, don't some Baptists think that Catholics aren't properly Christian?
I always thought it would have been kind of cool in Manichaenism had survived properly.Just smash Christianity with Zoroastrianism and Buddhism and all that stuff and see what comes out.I tried to understand their theology, but shit got confusing.
Rolled 85, 91, 52 = 228>>30835110
>>30835601you have some sort of document with that on? sounds cool as hell
>>30837114They had a vote on it and he was only one of two that objected to the Trinitarian dogma as it was codified in the Nicene Creed. He was just outnumbered.Also, has the distinction of being punched in the face by St. Nicholas.
Rolled 14, 41, 86 = 141>>30835110I gotta know.
>>30837137>Also, don't some Baptists think that Catholics aren't properly Christian?More than Baptists, it's a stereotype of sizable number of American Protestants.
>>30837089I fucking love the mythology, and I fucking love treating it as true. Among other things I've considered, I tried calculating what the rate of immigration into the Christian heaven is, operating on the following assumptions.1. That the Christian paradise is physical, or at least quasi-physical.2. That the dimensions given in Revelation for New Jerusalem are equal to the dimensions for Heaven as it currently existed in the mythology.I ended up calculating world population for Christians and deaths per day.Funny enough it all started because of those gay "I went to heaven!" stories they sell at Wal-Mart, and how they always have the person walk through a six foot tall Gate and walk into the place all of a hundred feet before getting to God's throne and their relatives.I was convinced [and still am] that if these places exist they must look more like the Dallas Airport. Fucktons of people coming in, angels yelling over intercoms in dozens of languages, people of every skin color trying to get sorted in. Which is ironically what the Bible describes these places as. But then modern Christians spiritualize saying thats metaphorical.Why must they go out of their way to make things make less sense?
>>30836766>Sikh people are awesome. If I wasn't happy with my religion then I'd convert to them immediately.I think that if I had to choose a religion, it would either be Mesopotamian (considering how much of a hard on I have for the Akkadian empire) or the Sikhs.
>>30837105Right. That makes sense. That's probably the explanation I would've given too.
>>30837204>angels yelling over intercoms in dozens of languagesOr one language that everyone hears as their own, Pentecost-style.
>>30837229I considered that and dismissed it on biblical grounds, and because that leads to all kinds of physical and metaphysical problems.For example if someone speaks in slang does the magic translate literally or by meaning?
>>30837174That's pretty cool, being punched by a Saint. Holy damage to the unbeliever?>>30837197Why?? If anything, the Catholics and the Orthodox are the closest to the "One True Christian" idea. Oh well.>>30837205So, Sikh. Why follow a dead religion? Obviously they got something wrong, or they wouldn't be dead.
>>30837249Whichever one of those options it is, obviously it works as intended. It was designed to work so it works.I can't see how that could possibly be dismissed for any reason at all.
>>30837249Dismissed it on Biblical grounds? But there's Biblical precedent. If the Apostles could do it, surely angels can?
>>30837265I'm fairly sure he wasn't an unbeliever so much as a nearly-identical-but-ever-so-slightly-different-believer
>>30837128Yes. This this this. The details, while relevant to living a life in faith that we believe glorifies God, are ultimately secondary to the blood of Christ which binds us together.Like one time I went to a Catholic church my friend went to, and I didn't realize that Catholics did the Lord's Supper every Mass. They believed that since I wasn't Catholic, I shouldn't partake in it. Rather than getting angry, I realized that they did this for my own sake, because taking part in the Lord's Supper without being right with God is bringing judgement upon yourself.And that consideration, rather than exclusionary, is a matter of faith. Allowing me to do so anyways would be sin for both of us, so it's for both our sakes.I love this body, and I hope we knit ourselves closer together in the future.
>>30837249What kind of metaphysical problems? 1 Corinthians 12:10 seems to say that translations of "every language" isn't such a big deal to the omniscient deity, even if the language is low-class slang.
>>30837274>>30837272The Bible describes people of "every tongue/language" in heaven, and this is a first-person account by John, so I thought it made more sense for him to know that because he heard them speaking different languages.Not to mention it raises all kinds of other questions about linguistics and................just for various reasons I thought Tongues works better as a short-term miracle than a long-term solution to the Babel problem.
>>30837265Personally, I find it telling that despite being separated for far longer than Protestants have, Orthodox and Catholics are nearly identical in terms of practical theology, with only a few quibbles here and there. Whereas Protestants, despite their schism coming centuries later, have exploded into a plethora of denominations, the vast majority of which are dramatically different from Orthodox/Catholic theology.
>>30835110Holy shit I love you. I have a country in my setting that worships the Fleshed God, an actual god that hangs out and rules things.His children are called the Thousand Gods of the Heavenly Court, and they're also worshipped. The country is heavily caste based, with your caste being determined by how much god-blood you have in you. The Thousand Gods are all pretty much spoiled, bratty children with superpowers and divine mutations.
>>30837317I was thinking in terms strictly of the angels-on-PAs bit, not that everyone in heaven necessarily speaks in tongues.
>>30836794I've always cut them into three groups depending on how they are portrayed.Angel of Death - Good guy. Has a fair amount of compassion for the dead, tries to help them along in their path, does the necessary explaining, takes plenty of time to make sure they have a clear picture of whats happening so they can pass without too much death.Ferryman - A man who has a job to do. He doesn't really care about humans one way or the other, but its either his job to do away with the dying or take them where they are supposed to go. If they do what is necessary (assuming there are conditions), they're going to get there, and it would take a more powerful god than Death to prevent them from reaching their destination.Grim Reaper - A malevolent entity. He might, like the ferryman, be just doing a job, but that's not to say that he doesn't get a little bit giddy every time a plague rolls into town or a new war starts.Most mythologies without decent orthodoxy actually have individuals who fit two of those portrayals; one neutral and one either good or bad. Its fairly rare to see all three at once.
>>30837304So . . . a heretic? SMITE THE HERETIC!?>>30837321If I were a Christian, that would be a convincing argument for me. Perpetuation of the traditional ways of doing things = more likely that you're the OG
>>30837351Ah. Then I misunderstood you. But see my point? Its FUN to think out the implications of this shit instead of getting shot down with "Hurp its metaphorical" even when it gives no indication its intended to be.You start with a rich mythology of four-faced demigods and perfect Men as angelic hosts, living in cities of jewels and flying chariots of fire. Of people fighting for Good and opposing Vices. Of scholars debating and prophets who split oceans.And you spiritualize it and rot it and emotionalize it until it becomes..................a soppy tool for old fat women and insecure teens to get over their life issues.*Sigh*
>>30837321Baptists follow the Bible fairly closely, and while we believe that tongues and miracles can happen, we've never seen it happen and we're really wary of any claims of it happening, since there are a lot of people who fake these things.It's... painful and sad... and I know that it's sort of my fault in a sense.Even if a miracle DID happen, would I even believe it? Would I know it? God help me and give me faith, I hope that I believe God's work when I see it.Captcha: rosebud czenre
>>30837265>Why?? If anything, the Catholics and the Orthodox are the closest to the "One True Christian" idea. Oh well.Because we're dirty papists, worship statues and Mary, and don't read the Bible.
>>30837395Fuck Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. Such bullshit.
Rolled 64, 9, 46 = 119>>30837170I don't have a single document with it on, but I have a few of the Dead Sea Scrolls-style prophecies the players got when each one attacked.
>>30837385More like that guy that shows up for all the big inquisition parties and the two of you spend the night hatefucking each other with your eyes from across the room.
>>30835209Are you reading straight out of the Old Testament, or do you have like, a webpage or pdf for this shit?
>>30837398>Even if a miracle DID happen, would I even believe it? Would I know it? God help me and give me faith, I hope that I believe God's work when I see it.But anon, you see God's work every day. Every time the sun rises. The universe itself is the work of his love that allows us to live and exist every day.
>>30837412Its not even moralistic! You see girls coming to church wearing thigh-shorts and lying to everyone they meet to avoid trouble and acting exactly like their peers except they're slightly nicer and go to church.Same with guys, same with everyone.And when they try and get moralistic it only gets worse! They get so hopped up on Jesus they won't shut up about it, they use it to sop all their problems, they practice only the cruder virtues, and they in general become insufferable.
>>30837445Nope, this is from Enoch, I'm typing it from the translation that's used in this book, which has a good number of other non-canonical apocalypses and some great contextual commentary attached to each piece that it covers. I'd recommend picking it up if you want to read some more.
>>30837459Pray for them and look for your own faults too. We all have failings in faith and carrying out our beliefs. The best we can do is serve as examples to others.
>>30837455Oh, well of course. The guy constructed the thing meticulously, every atom and photon in its proper place since the beginning of time.But it's rare to see miraculous healing, though, you know?But blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believes, right?I guess...
>>30836574Euphoric. What's the issue, though? This stuff is neat.
>>30837411>worship statues and MaryI don't get that at all. Why statues? The Ten Commandments tell you not to worship graven images, like stone statues and similar!And it's reaaaaaaaaally funny, to a Jew like me, to hear people who worship Jesus get mad at people who worship Jesus and Mary.>>30837455That's not a "miracle," that's God doing good stuff for us. "Miracles" happen when God violates the ordered rules He Created for some truly awesome events - like when the sun stopped in the sky for Joshua.
>>30837520>miracle healingHave these ever been recorded?Also, since we're on the general subject... what do you guys think of palmistry?
>>30837537>And it's reaaaaaaaaally funny, to a Jew like me, to hear people who worship Jesus get mad at people who worship Jesus and Mary.But we don't worship Mary, that's the joke. Mary and the Saints are venerated, not worshiped, there's a distinct theological different.
>>30837321There's a reason for why that is which is completely inherent to the differences in each belief system;* In catholocism, holy services can only be performed by people who are given the gift to do so through ritual. Holiness is like a magical effect that is bestowed on someone and then they get to Do Holy Things. And people with that gift are necessary because otherwise you're cut off from the source.* In protestantism, everyone and/or no-one has the exclusive ability to perform holy rites and such. Some might know more about it, but no-one is equipped with special mojo that nobody else has.Because of this, catholicism is practically glued together in a pyramid shape that ends with the pope on top, whereas protestantism is more like a bacteria that exists within many organisms and because canons and such considerations aren't created through divine sanction but rather by mortal scholars, there is potential for mutation through different interpretations.
>>30837495Time to check my uni library for a copy.
>>30837553>Have these ever been recorded?There's a lot, actually, the Catholic Church has a really rigorous process of verifying miracles to make sure that there's no other reasonable scientific explanation. Medically inexplicable miracles are generally the most common reported, and usually what points in favor of people up for canonization as saints (someone prays to a person for intercession and is healed as a result).
>>30837572>Because of this, catholicism is practically glued together in a pyramid shape that ends with the pope on topMore like the Magisterium and the Council of Cardinals at the top, really. Pope has final say in terms of ex cathedra infallibility, but proclamation made in that sense are fairly rare.
>>30837554What's the difference between veneration and worship, in the Christian mind?
>>30837649But isn't the Pope meant to be the voice of God on Earth, or is that only in the case of theological discussion that the Cardinals can't come to common ground on?
>>30837572This.The one, really massive difference between the whole thing is that we Protestants take the notion that Jesus abolished the need for an earthly hierarchical order through which all believers must submit in order to obtain redemption very seriously. We kinda see the Vatican as attempting to thwart that, putting themselves between the common man and God and saying "no, no matter what, you need us". It's not like the Catholic church wasn't massively politically connected/influential at its height, either. I believe we're rightly suspicious of some of the motives that went into Catholic doctrine.
>>30829175But, anon, look at this adorable motherfucker.
>>30837621Woah, really? What's the process? How do they verify?
>>30837101>Be Baptist>Brother is in the Minestry>Get to talking about Protestants vs Catholics"It's all Christianity, why does it matter?">"Because [some reason I completely forgot]."I know the two groups have fairly big differences, but the bottom line is they're both Chrisians, so what's the big deal?
>>30837672Okay, so the Saints are very holy people that have been demonstrated to be in heaven with God, and can intercede on our behalf to allow us a conduit to petition God for help. Because God knows we need all the help we can get here on Earth, and just as Jesus tells us to ask others to pray for us on Earth, we don't stop asking for those prayers just because those people are dead. Mary gets seriously high honors and is the go-to source of intercession for just about everything, because she's the Mother of Christ, and you'd sure as hell listen to your mother if she told you to do something, just as she told Jesus to change the water into wine at the wedding of Cana. Mary is pretty much the holiest mortal person in the history of humanity.But they're all still people.Worship is what is afforded to God alone.
>>30837205Only one comes with a free turban and fancy knife!!
>>30837706I think they send out a few Catholic officials to investigate and verify. I like to imagine that they send out a skeptical priest and an overtly enthusiastic priest and shenanigans ensue.
>>30837706here's an article from a secular sourcehttp://www.livescience.com/38033-how-vatican-identifies-miracles.html
>>30837672Veneration is a sort of deep respect for a person as a phenomenal role model and all around awesome person, and in the context of the saints is usually coupled with prayers for intercession (which basically amounts to the same thing as asking a fellow churchgoer to pray for you, with the caveat that the person you're asking happens to be in heaven already and is known for being on God's good side).Worship entails a degree of reverence, submission, and sacrifice that is given only to God.
I had an idea for a quest that involves beings similar to biblical angels and demons. It starts off a simple treasure hunt to find the pieces of a demonic crown. To get them you have to fight the demon avatars who own them, and then collect angelic artifacts to defeat the demon released from the assembled crown.
>>30837724The devil is in the details really, both sides see the other as a perversion of christ's teachings. Hell just look at the misunderstanding between saints and mary to get an idea. >Best saintSo does anyone have a patron saint around here? St Joan is mine.
>>30837782>Buddy cop movie with PriestsI'd pay to see that.
>>30837692Those suspicions would be more well-founded if the doctrines you guys object to were actually added at that politically-connected, corrupt height, rather than going back (in many cases) even before the doctrines that we actually agree on. Apostolic succession, baptismal regeneration, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the veneration of the saints, the special veneration of Mary, and the general Church hierarchy (including the primacy of the bishop of Rome) all go back to the 2nd century AD, when Christianity was still a heavily-persecuted minority in the Roman empire.
>>30837621A friend of mine had a miraculous healing. Rather, his death was postponed for a short time.He had a tumor in the center of his brain the size of a baseball. The cancer was VERY aggressive. He had a few weeks, but ended up living for... over a year?The right half of his body got screwed up and they said he'd never walk again. He went cross-eyed and they said he'd never be able to see properly again. He did both.The chemo was used to hopefully postpone the cancer killing him. Instead, it made the tumor shrink to the size of an egg.When it was the size of a baseball, no brain surgeon would touch it. When it shrunk, one guy considered doing so.When it came time for the operation, they did one last scan to figure out where the tumor was exactly. Something completely impossible happened. The tumor had not only shrunk, but it had moved from the center of his brain to the back and top of his skull. It was right on the surface, and the surgeon said that it was so easy to remove, he was practically whistling through the operation. It was inexplicable. Science can't currently explain how the tumor moved so dramatically and so completely during such a short period of time.Months later, he died of a resurgence of the cancer. I don't know if/where it spread to when it killed him.He had just turned 18 when he died.His life and death caused a sort of revival in my church, and touched the lives of thousands of people all across the world, and still has an effect on people even today.Thank God for Michael.
>>30837867Don't really claim a single patron saint, but there's plenty that I really like.
>>30837692>rightly suspicious of some of the motives that went into Catholic doctrine.The church basically replaced the Roman empire as the ruling political body of western Europe during the middle ages. The pope hat is literally a triple crown. A crown on top of a crown on top of a crown.Personally, i find the suggestion that the catholic church is any thing other than an incredibly corrupt, power hungry political institution laughable. It's not like they've ever been very subtle about it. I mean, come on, a triple crown.
>>30837867So how does one get a patron saint?
>>30837750It's clearly splitting hairs in order to justify including ancestor worship/polytheism into a supposedly monotheistic tradition.
>>30837901Find one that you like and has a life that you can relate to and emulate, and then start praying for their intercession.
>>30837901Well you don't really get one, it is just one that you hold in high respect. More or less your favorite one. For example St Joan is the patron saint of soldiers and France, since I was in the army I named her my patron saint.
>>30837884Even as someone who doesn't know the history, isn't praying to anyone but God himself (and maybe Jesus, depending on who you ask) literally blasphemy? Like... veneration. Sure. Venerate away. Have holidays in Saints' names, whatever. But... praying? I don't understand how it's not idolatry by definition.
>>30837867Albertus Magnus for me.>>30837901It's usually based on your lifestyle/profession, in many cases. Though if you're Catholic, it's customary in many areas to pick a saint at your confirmation.They happen to be the same for me -- Albertus Magnus is the patron saint of scientists, and also my confirmation saint. Though that's not exactly coincidental; I knew back in middle school when I was confirmed that I wanted to be a scientist, so I picked Albertus Magnus largely *because* he's the patron of scientists.
>>30837957Officially-approved Catholic explanation here.http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints
>>30837895the political power of the catholic church during the middle ages is greatly overstated. they were (and remain) the most powerful religious organisation in history, but calling them "the ruling political body" of western europe is laughable.
>>30837945>>30837953>>30837960So getting a patron Saint is like getting a waifu?
>>30838011More like getting a bro to watch your back.
>>30837890>Tumour moves! But guy still dies. It's a miracle!You're easily impressed.
>>30837957It's not "praying" in the same sense. When we pray to the saints (including Mary), it's literally the same thing as asking a buddy to pray for you. Just with extra veneration thrown in, because it's not so much your buddy as a super awesome celebrity of sorts.Look at the Hail Mary, for instance:>Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.This is the veneration part, and is lifted straight out of Scripture. The first sentence was spoken by the angel Gabriel, the second by Elizabeth.>Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.Some more veneratory titles, and a request that she pray for us. That's it.Pretty much every prayer to a saint that I'm aware of is basically the same sort of deal. It basically boils down to fancy ways of saying "hey, you're a pretty cool guy/gal, and I know you're in good with God, could you put in a good word for me please?"
>>30838036Death is inevitable for all of us.
>>30837692Yes, this is one reservation I have about Catholicism. It seems to put a middle-man between God and Man, which is already accomplished wholly and completely by Christ and the Holy Spirit.We are able to boldly go before the throne of grace, right? I don't need a priest to confess to. I have God as my savior and redeemer already. Directly. Completely.Also, Purgatory is not kosher, to me. It's as if saying that Christ's blood isn't quite potent enough to cleanse me of all my sins as far as the east is from the west. It's saying that I still have to pay for some of it myself, which is directly against everything the New Testament stands for.So anyone who says the Catholic faith is closer to the original, I would firmly disagree.
>>30837988>>30838049Huh. I'm still a little leery, but that's having come from an initial mindset of "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU THINKING!?" Thanks for the explanations.
>>30838063>his death was postponed for a short time.It's not exactly up there with Lazurus, is it. Guess I just require my miracles to be a little more, you know, miraculous.
>>30837750>>30837815When you pray, do you pray *to* them? Or do you pray to God and say "God, remember how awesome this person was? In that person's merit . . ." - because the seems to be a distinct difference between those two attitudes.With all the talk of praying to Saints and to Popes (see http://www.livescience.com/38033-how-vatican-identifies-miracles.html), it sounds like Catholics do the former more than the latter. Praying to a dead person and asking that dead person to pray for you for help is, functionally, no different than you praying to God for that help. Which would sound like you're worshiping that dead person. I venerate my grandfather, but I won't pray to him when he dies.>>30837793>medical miracles where doctors say "no chance of survival">can only pray to one person, so you know that Pope did itInterdasting.
>>30838082Purgatory's just a scam they came up with to help them sell pardons.
>>30838082>PurgatoryOkay, this is from 1 Corinthians 3: 11-15>For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.Now, stop me if I'm wrong, but Protestants - MOST Protestants - name this as God's Judgement. Catholics believe that too, but simply give this process a name as Purgatory.
>>30838082>I don't need a priest to confess toThis is something I've always liked about Catholicism. I love the idea of sitting down with another person and, with at least the illusion of anonymity, talking about your fuck ups.It lets you dwell on it a bit while getting it off your chest.
>>30838186That's pretty much exactly it. It's having someone serving on Earth within the role and spirit of Jesus saying personally - to you - "Go, your sins are forgiven". Catholics are big on having physical signs of God's grace, and that absolution is one of them.
>>30838082>>30838181>PurgatoryThis is something I've been thinking about lately. The afterlife in general, and what it means. It's generally held that there's heaven, and there's hell, and some people believe in purgatory. But what is hell? Common interpretation is a place with fire, but Revelations (I think) straight up says that hell is a place that WILL BE CAST INTO the lake of fire. IE, it's not the same place. Yet. One will be added to the other after the fact.Moreover, has anybody else noticed that there seems to be different interpretations on whether or not hell is actually eternal? Some of the imagery given, talking about burning up the chaff from the wheat, seems to imply it's more like a garbage disposal than a permanent prison. Maybe nonbelievers actually get the oblivion they're expecting, and the whole eternal-torment thing is only for insipidly egregious offenses, like betrayal. I am extremely rusty on my scripture, though. These are just things that have come to mind lately.
>>30838004You're right, I was being hyperbolic. Countries still went to war, or didn't, on the pope's command, though.
>>30838223>Moreover, has anybody else noticed that there seems to be different interpretations on whether or not hell is actually eternal?Implying hell isn't eternal is kind of a serious heresy in Catholicism. Hell is a state of being permanently removed from God's grace, just as heaven is being eternally united with him fully in that grace.
Can someone explain to me how the Holy Trinity works? The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. What is the Holy Ghost and why don't people pray to it (maybe they do and I'm just stupid)?
>>30838286Well, if God enables all of existence, as is often referenced throughout scripture, wouldn't removal from God be permanent oblivion? You'd stop being. Flash. Gone. It's the same result, however you describe the mechanism.
>thread about weird parts of Judeo-Christian tradition and mythology>moves into swapping religious backgrounds and personal opinions>now into full on Catholic apologeticsWell this has been a weird day.
>>30838297I heard that God is Love. Right? So, God the Father, the Creator, is Love. But Love has to have an object of Love - narcissism is a sin. So the Son, the Begotten, exists by necessity out of that Love. The Son is also Love, and Loves the Father. The Holy Ghost is the personification of that Father-Son Love . . . I think.It doesn't make any sense to me either
>>30838297Three is one and one is three. It is looking at a d4 with each side being something different but belonging to the same die. The holy ghost is the spirit of god, it doesn't get a lot of mention but it is still important.
>>30838328I've been a Christian my entire life and most of my family is deep enough in it to have taken missions trips to Bolivia and various areas of South America, and I have never, ever heard that as an explanation.
Damn, you guys are asking a lot of great questions that I would love to do some research on and explain, but I have to leave for work here in a few minutes. I can point you guys to the Catechism that touches on most of these big, fundamental questions if you're still interested. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTMI gotta run though, you guys have all been great, this is an awesome thread.
>>30838319Blame us catholic, we have a more interesting relationship when it comes to religion. Hell with the angels, warrior saints, statues that weep blood it is basically D&D without the magic missle.
>>30838136Do you ever ask your friends or fellow churchgoers to pray for you?If so, you should have no problem with prayer to saints. "The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful," after all, and the saints are by definition righteous. And it's not unreasonable that those in heaven could be aware of what's going on on earth.You might be getting a bit hung up on the word "prayer", given that the word has come to typically mean specifically an act of worship. In this case, it's really the more archaic sense of "an earnest request". We "pray to" the saints more in the sense of "*pray* tell, what is your problem with praying to saints?"It's also not like Catholics *exclusively* pray to the saints. Not by a long shot. We still pray directly to God all the time. It's just that we also include some requests for support from the saints, just like any Protestant would ask his friends and church community for support.
>>30838297most people find the holy ghost too spooky to pray to
>>30838377David had True Strike as a Divine spell.
>>30838063Man wins the lotteryHoly shit what are the chancesGod.
>>30838319These are my favorite threads
>>30838181Judgement day is a specific time and event, not a prolonged period in some place before paradise.
>>30838447Eschatology is a big difference between Catholic teachings and Protestants, this is pretty much where we have to go "Welp, agree to disagree".
>>30838341So . . . what is it? Because that's what I learned, and I have Christian friends who roll deep who confirmed that for me.>>30838384I do, but I don't pray to them ("ask" them) once they're dead. What we do is pray to God in the name of the merits of the dead person."Prayer" is an act of worship in which you ask the Divine to help you / guide you / etc. If a third party, looking at you mumbling words while on your knees, can't tell the difference between you worshiping God and you worshiping something else, then you are committing the sin of idolatry by praying to the dead in that way.
>>30838082> I don't need a priest to confess to.You do if you're a catholic. You don't have the power to talk to god.> I have God as my savior and redeemer already. Directly. Completely.As a catholic, it's not that simple; you do in a sort of generalized sense, in the same way that the police protects you from burglars. But the only way you can truly be saved is by being cleaned and made holy through the magic of the church, so whenever you dirty yourself spiritually (aka. sin) you have to be cleaned or you're shit out of luck.God uses his arbitrary bureaucracy, so says the catholic church.> Also, Purgatory is not kosher, to me. It's as if saying that Christ's blood isn't quite potent enoughThe bible is very clear about how this works. A guy got a vision and saw how everything is going to go down in the future. However you like to think christ's blood works or doesn't work, there's a guy who is way holier than you who already explained how it works and no matter how dense of a fuck you want to be about the issue. In this case, that goes both for catholics and any mainstream protestant branch.
>>30838398Samson as Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist 1/9/10??
>>30838537See >>30838337Also you don't have to be on your knees when veneration, hell you can be sitting on a grassy knoll. It is not praying, it is simply asking for them to put in a good word for us to god. Also the sin of idolatry it worshiping idols, since we venerate and not worship we are not committing sin.
>>30838328Dude, uh... what are you on about?In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word became flesh. Even in the old testament, God refers to himself as "us." Let "us" do this or that. And yet at the same time the Old Testament is very clear that "The Lord our God is One."Christ paid the price for our sins in blood, and interceded for us, and the Holy Spirit is our counselor and our helper. Not some secondary helper or some second banana. This is like the "helper" who helps a crippled individual get out of bed in the morning and put on their clothes. We absolutely need this spirit. This spirit is God and yet is separate.It's incredibly difficult to understand, and we probably never will fully understand it on this side of eternity.It might sound like a cop-out, but maybe I'm just bad at explaining.
>>30838603> talk to god.Wrong about that one, anyone can talk to god, although getting an answer from him is the tricky part.
This is a fun, informative thread.I'm surprised.Anyway, how big is the Old Testament in most churches? Is it mostly New Testament stuff that gets taught/sermon'd?
>>30838662okay, but who would win in a fight? the father, the son or the holy ghost?
>>30838537So, what, do you believe those in heaven can't hear those still alive on earth? Or that they don't care?The Catholic position is simply that the community of believers extends beyond the veil of death, because Christ has defeated death.>If a third party, looking at you mumbling words while on your knees, can't tell the difference between you worshiping God and you worshiping something else, then you are committing the sin of idolatry by praying to the dead in that way.Pretty sure sin is not a function of what you can be mistaken as doing. If I'm spacing out and staring off into space and someone mistakes me for ogling a girl on the other side of the room, am I committing the sin of lust? Unless what I'm doing is actually worship, it doesn't matter what it looks like I'm doing.
>>30838691New Testament is the fulfillment of the expectation in the Old Testament, so you could argue that it's more primary, but the Old Testament is still important because the NT builds off of what it establishes.
>>30838407It is very easy to calculate the chance of winning a lottery if you are aware of certain conditions like the rules of the lottery in question, how many times you plan on playing during a single draw, etc. If there's a chance it could happen, it's not a miracle.Miracles, on the other hand, are things that, even with all of our current knowledge of how the world works, seem impossible. As in, there's no chance it could happen.
>>30838691Old Testament serves as history, telling why certain things are important. The laws of the Old Testament have been replaced with the New Testament which is taught more. It is a bit of both really with.
>>30838681> anyone can talk to godIn the case needing to receive the rite of confession, no you absolutely cannot. You can't go "hey god purify me plx" - it doesn't work that way. You don't have the mojo, end of story.
>>30838691In the Catholic church, every mass (barring certain holy days) has a reading from the Old Testament, a hymn based on a psalm, a reading from one of the New Testament books other than the Gospels, and a reading from one of the Gospels. Usually these readings are set up to have some sort of continuity/relationship between each other, so they're all pointing toward a similar sort of concept.I haven't been to very many Protestant services, but I'm pretty sure every single one I have been to has focused on New Testament stuff.
>>30838787You can still talk to God personally, absolutely, but you need the grace that sacramental grace to have your sins expunged, according to Catholics.
>>30838816>>30838787It's also a case of bringing yourself forward to be fully reconciled to the Church.
>>30838787Giving a rite and talking to god is two different things however. I know of the relationship the priest has with god but saying that only they can talk to him is wrong. Also public confessions are still a valid form of the rite as well along with death bed confession if there is no priest.
>>30838691>>30838805Protestant here. It's a pretty even split where I come from, though with a bias towards NT for obvious reasons. The whole thing about the old law being abolished is addressed by Jesus himself.“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 5:17
>>30838641But that doesn't describe a damn thing about their relationship. Why the relationship between the different Persons describe the way it is? Why is one "Father" and the other "Son," if not to say that the former "begot" the latter?>>30838662The "us" in the Masoretic text teaches us about angels and how to relate to our inferiors, not about the nature of God. The Trinity is clearly NOT a unified God of divine simplicity. There are no moving parts to God.> In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God.You know, interestingly enough, Judaism has a similar idea re: the Torah. It's some high-faluting Kabbalah stuff. Interesting how Hellenic Judaism (which became Christianity) and Rabbinic Judaism share so many ideas.>>30838728Nope, can't access us and we can't access them. Their minds are off, dead, waiting for the Resurrection to live again in Olam Haba, the World to Come. Their souls are either with God in Heaven (and separated by a number of barriers, according to Kabbalah) or reincarnated into new people.I've referred to some complicated Kabbalah stuff twice in this post. Who wants me to write it all up? If enough people are interested I will.
>>30838847>Who wants me to write it all up? If enough people are interested I will.Hell yes, I don't hardly know anything about the Kabbalah and I would love some more info.
>>30838603>You don't have the power to talk to God.Yes you do. The scriptures say you do. If you don't believe the scriptures or the disciples who wrote them, then why do you believe in Jesus at all?I'd rather believe the scriptures my religion is based off of than a pope any day of the week.And why would a priest be allowed to speak to God but not us?This is *exactly* what Jesus died for! Jesus is the new high priest, who goes to the holy of holys to intercede between God and Man. Accept no substitutes. He is the end-all be-all. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is *all* you need for salvation. That's it. Baptism is an act of faith, and absolutely ought to be done if at all possible, but that doesn't save you. Priests don't absolve you. God does all of that. It has already been done, so that no one can be praised but God.I believe scriptures written by those who met Jesus in person before I believe anything some Pope or Priest says. They are *not* holier than I am. I have been cleansed fully by Christ's blood. My sins have been separated from me as far as the east is from the west, and all sins I have committed have been forgotten and paid for. Utterly forgiven. The purest white is rotten and moldy compared to the purification God has afforded me.This is scripture. This is grace.That's how Christ's blood works.
>>30838847Sure. I don't know nearly enough as I'd like.
>>30838881Alright, let me write it up and I'll post it.
>>30838749Our medical knowledge is not complete, and tumours shrinking, growing and moving is commonplace. The particular combination of symptoms that you've chosen to focus are not impossible and they do not seem impossible in the strictest sense of the word; they are merely improbable. In fact, in a population of 6 billion people across untold centuries, they become quite probable indeed. Some might say nearly inevitable.Much in the same way that a person can say, after the fact, that "omg it's super crazy that i just rolled a 6 four times in a row on a d6" that is in no way statistically improbable because he never would've noticed if it didn't happen, and there's a huge number of different result combinations that could've provoked a similar response; on huge population of people across a large amount of time, it's inevitable that it will happen to SOMEONE and that SOMEONE will always react as if he's the centre of the universe and that this one statistical outcome is somehow special.But it isn't. It's a simple trick of perspective.
>>30838839>>30838816>>30838787I didn't make my "talk to god" comment without context. Read the post I'm replying to.I wasn't talking about your right to worthlessly flap your gums and get nothing in return.I was talking about the rite of confession, that a misguided individual said he could somehow fabricate himself.Which he can't.Unless he's a protestant, in which case he well and truly doesn't need it. But I covered my ass on that one by saying "if you're a catholic"
>>30838984Dude, I was trying to add to your point with my post here.>>30838816This is starting to get pretty heated, can we Protestants and Catholics just agree that we have different beliefs on the matter and stop trying to explicitly convert the other?
>>30838911Exactly, a freak event is not the same as a miracle.But hey, they want there to be a miracle, because it makes them feel better, and believing things because they make you feel better is the whole basis of religious faith.
>>30838805I'm sure it's different based on the local flavour of protestantism you're sampling, but in the Lutheran Evangelical (Protestant) church of Denmark, priests can pretty much just jam and talk about whatever they want. I'm sure there are guidelines though, but lots of times I've heard stuff like (something from the new testament)+(something in the news right now/mention twitter or facebook in context somehow)+(i think we can all learn a lesson from that spiritually)Keep in mind that priests are not really special in the protestant church. They're just dudes who know lots of religious lore.
>>30838895I'm sure you believe lots of stuff but i can tell you one thing; you're not a catholic.
1/?>>30838907Here's a brief rundown of Torah and Kabbalah first, so you kind of know what I'm referring to:There are two kinds of "Torah" that Jews have: the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. Christians call the Written Torah the "Old Testament" and deny the Oral Torah; Jews, in turn, deny the New Testament in favor of the Oral Torah. Jews argue that certain verses of the Written Torah do not make sense without an additional body of knowledge and rulings, justifying the existence of an Oral Law. For example, the Torah commands us to slaughter an animal "in the way that I have shown you," (Deut. 12:21, Deut. 14:21, Num. 11:22) but does not tell us what that way is in the text. So, in order to follow the Written Law, there must be an Oral Law alongside it.The Oral Torah began as a series of teachings by Moses and include a large set of tools (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmudical_hermeneutics) that the rabbis can use in order to interpret the Written Torah to synthesize Law. One of these teachings of Moses is called "Pardes" - the idea that there is specifically four different levels of meaning to the Written Torah, that the Oral Torah's hermeneutical techniques can unlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)). These are: Peshat (the literal meaning), Remez (the allegorical), Drash (the hidden meaning), and the Sod (the secret meaning). When you read a translation of the text, you read the Peshat. When you read a commentary like Rashi, you're getting the Remez. When you're learning Midrash (homiletic stories, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash) then you're learning Drash. When you're learning Kabbalah, then you're learning Sod.The "Oral Law" generally refers to the Baraita, Mishna, Talmud, commentaries, Midrash stories, and Kabbalah. The Talmud itself teaches all levels of Pardes, though later commentaries and later texts expanded on this knowledge.Everyone clear so far?
>>30838984Being Catholic changes nothing.It's still Christian. It's still a follower of Christ, and if you don't believe the very scriptures that your priests and the Pope read, then what do you really believe?It makes no sense. People can't come in five hundred or a thousand years later and say "Those disciples of Christ who know these truths first-hand and wrote the New Testament themselves? They were wrong. We're right."That's not how that works.
>>30839154Good here, keep going!
>>30839023Sorry; internet communication can be tricky and on 4chan I tend to just expect that people spin their words in the most negative possible way.It seems I was being unnecessarily harsh in my reply. Sorry about that; I really do think this is a stimulating discussion, and next year I'm actually starting my path to teach this very subject in schools.
>>30838911You're being deliberately obtuse.>Our medical knowledge is not completeThanks for essentially repeating what I said.>tumours shrinking, growing and moving is commonplaceYes. And, at best, we can make wild guesses as to why.As far as medical science is concerned, something like what that anon described is "impossible".Only an idiot would say rolling 4 sixes in a row is "impossible" since there is an easily calculated probability of it happening (1/(6^4)).
>>30839157Catholicism is a belief system and an organisation. It has rules. They don't rearrange themselves because you don't like them.If you don't agree with the catholic church about how the rites work, you're free to try and debate that with them.
>>30839247So you disagree with me; you think it is impossible.I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
>>30839208>It seems I was being unnecessarily harsh in my reply. Sorry about that; I really do think this is a stimulating discussion, and next year I'm actually starting my path to teach this very subject in schoolsAwesome, I did twelve years of Catholic schooling and some Religious Studies stuff in college, but I've always been impressed with people who really study this stuff in depth. I'm not nearly as good when it comes to apologetics or real theological debate. I am studying to become a high school science teacher though, so good luck, fellow educator.
>>30838895Well, we could get into the finer points of soteriology here, but instead I'll just ask you this:How do you know which texts are Scripture? The Bible is generated by the Church, not vice-versa, so if the Church consistently says from its very inception that such-and-so is the way X detail of Scripture is to be interpreted, I'm inclined to say it's probably more prudent to trust that interpretation over your own.
>>30839157You know, that's not a very secure footing to base an argument on, because who exactly gets to decide what is scripture? How do you verify the word of god? How do you decide what is canon and what is apocrypha? All you're doing is exchanging the church for whoever it was that wrote and put together the books thousands of years ago, and they were human too, and just as fallible.
>>30839285I think we just have a different opinion of what the word should mean. Which seems like it's the cause of most arguments like this one.
>>30839336>who exactly gets to decide what is scriptureThe catholic church can tell you exactly that. It isn't a nebulous question; it has very specific and fairly convoluted answers that have been debated for close to two thousand years.>How do you verify the word of god? How do you decide what is canon and what is apocryphaThe catholic church has the answers to this as well. See my first answer for more information.>All you're doing is exchanging the church for whoever it was that wrote and put together the books thousands of years ago, and they were human too, and just as fallible.Right and just like Martin Luther, who said many of the same things, you are welcome to rebel against the institution of the catholic church and become a protestant, or perhaps create your own offshoot of christianity entirely, but you would not be a Catholic because that's how Catholicism works.
>>30836617Catholic here also, and here's something relevant to the discussion, one of /tg/'s oldest pieces of Homebrew, Deus Volt, a Fantasy Crusades setting that delves deep into biblical weirdness and is most excellent, here's a link to an archive download; http://www.mediafire.com/download/xlxox3yw6u398ya/Deus_Volt.rar
>>30839426You seem to think that "unexplained" is the same as "impossible," which isn't the case. Something unexplained happening is curious, but it's not miraculous. Just because we don't understand how exactly it happened yet doesn't mean we need to label it miraculous.
>>30839256I guesssssssss...That still completely avoids the points I'm making, and basically says "The Pope said so."It... It seems *really* suspect that it clearly and blatantly and unapologetically disregards or even contradicts scripture.
>>30839446I'm not the protestant anon, I was actually arguing against him.
>>30839531You still haven't explained how you know what is scripture without the church.
>>30839531>That still completely avoids the points I'm making, and basically says "The Pope said so."There's a lot more to Church tradition than "the Pope said so" as well. We do have theological arguments about this that are based on Scripture, and I can point you to a few Catholic apologist websites if you want to read up on it.
>>30839426Look up a strict (that is, not colloquial,) dictionary definition of "impossible" in any mainstream dictionary.Then look up a strict dictionary definition of "improbable" in any mainstream dictionary.The first part of my argument goes; it is not impossible (from your point of view), it is improbable.The second part of my argument then elaborates; your point of view, however, is flawed because your flesh suit inhabits a very small amount of space and time.If you look at the grand picture of things, it is extremely likely that this would have happened somewhere sometime, and since people think like you do (from their own perspective) whoever was around when that thing happened would probably think like you do.And in the big picture, a situation like that happening isn't just "possible" - it becomes increasingly more likely (some might say "more inevitable" - helps you get the gist of it but it's not completely right) as time goes on and the human race grows in population.
2/?>>30839154There are many books of Kabbalah, the most important ones being the Bahir, the Zohar, and the Tanya. The Tanya is the most recent major text and expands on ideas in the Bahir and the Zohar; and, since that's the one I'm learning right now, that's the one I'm going to use as my source. I'm only a few chapters in so bear with me.Now then.> In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God.We learn from the Zohar that Torah, which is the wisdom and will of God, is "one with his glory" since, as we learn from Maimonides, God is the "knowledge," the "knower," and the "known." Unlike finite people, who learn things through the three mental faculties of Chochma, Binah, and Daat (the spark of wisdom, the process of understanding, and the internalization of knowledge), God is infinite. God, as Knower, has nothing external from God to possibly know (the Known), and thereby God already possesses and internalized the Knowledge. This is hard for us to grasp properly, because our minds work fundamentally differently - and this is backed by Scripture (Job 11:17 and Jeremiah 55:8 specifically).Now Torah, being the inscribed will and Knowledge of God to the Jews, is the same thing as God by the above formulation: Torah is like compressed essence of the Divine in the physical world. This "compression" of God's knowledge is a whole separate topic about how God created the Cosmos through a process called tzimtzum ("compression"). I can go into that if y'all want me to, too. But since we Jews are commanded to learn the Torah (Exodus 19:9 and Deut. 4:10), and by doing so we can learn the Knowledge of God - we become one with God through Torah. Unlike in Christianity, the "Word" of God is not given an independent will or consciousness from God. There are no separate Divine People. There is only God, and God's "diary," which acts as a window for the Jew into the mind of God.Any questions?
>>30839531Right. This comment was actually meant for you;>>30839446
3/?>>30839631Actually, wait: the second thing I was going to explain was tzimtzum, since we're going to talk about the barriers between worlds and Creation generally. So let me write all that up.
>>30839631Not currently, please, keep posting.
>>30839631So... God is the computer that runs the simulation that is the world; he "is" every part of all the data that makes up the world. And the Torah has special privileges of being "more god" than the rest, because it's information about what the computer works like and/or what principles were used to create the simulation.Does this make sense, and if not, could you perhaps help me understand what I'm getting wrong?
Rolled 73, 45, 32 = 150>>30835110rollan
>>30839490>>30839589My problem with your arguments is how far you can take it. Anything can be merely improbable rather than impossible. You can throw 4 d6s and have them come up with the signs of the 4 chaos gods, or a royal flush, or land on the table as fully sentient beings, spend a week building a vessel capable of space travel and disappear. All of these things can be argued as having an explanation, just one that we do not have at the moment (but give it a couple of decades). If nothing is impossible, what is?
4/?>>30839695Cool :D>>30839665God is called the "Or Ein Sof" in Kabbalah texts. It means "light without end" or "empty light." Before Creation (as much as you can say that there was a "before," since Time is something that God Created) there was nothing but God. This light of God (Psalm 119:105) and God's Torah, which is called "black fire on white fire" (http://ravkooktorah.org/VAYIK64.htm), can be dangerous to human life: sometimes people DIE from being too close to that light (all that fire symbology in Scripture, esp. Lev. 10 1-3 where Nadav and Avihu sinned against God and God burned them with fire). Kabbalah teaches that someone can become so holy, so close to God, that they overflow their specific spiritual capacity and their souls leave their bodies to rejoin with God; this is the "blissful kiss" that God killed Aaron and Moses with. Things that *think* they are separate from God, when they encounter the full light of God's Glory, combust and die. I wrote above about the Israelites on Mt. Sinai dying because God spoke directly to them and not through Moses; Moses, being the greatest Prophet to have ever been born, was more capable at spiritually handling the direct light of God than the rest of the Jews were and survived its Glory. There are many stories about this: in the Talmud, there is a story of two rabbis who were getting drunk on Purim and talking about God, and the greater taught the lesser something too powerful and the lesser died (God raised him from the dead via Miracle). There's another of four rabbis who go into a cave to learn some Kabbalah: one left and didn't remember anything, another left and remembered everything, another went insane, and another simply died from the power. Even angels are not immune to this - the highest level of angel can only cry out "HOLY! HOLY! HOLY!" before melting into the Glory of God's Light
>>30839887If nothing is impossible, nothing is impossible.I'm not the one who needs a contradiction to make room for my world view. There are better and cleverer ways to make room for spirituality in your world than basing everything on wishful thinking.
>>30840018Where the fuck can I find this shit in written form? This is gold.
>>30839887There's a difference between outside of current understanding and in contradiction of current understanding.It's also largely a matter of degrees. To me, a tumour moving is weird and I don't know how it happened, but the human body is itself weird and incredibly complex, so it doesn't seem like something that requires the direct intervention of god. Lazurus was a miracle. Current medical scientific understanding, which is incomplete, failing to explain something, is not. It's actually pretty fucking mundane. some of us don't leap to "it's a miracle" as an explanation at the drop of a hat. You know who does do that? Juggolos. Magnets man, they''re fucking miracles.
5/?>>30840018So in order for something that is separate (or at least *thinks* that it is separate) to exist, there must be some barriers between God and the Creation - or Creation would unmake itself! These barriers were created through the process of tzimtzum ("contraction"). God Created with this process in order to construct us in such a way that we can relate to God in a particular fashion - none of this process is strictly necessary for God, who could have just created beings that were able to withstand the Light. I'll go into more detail on this later.There were three main Contractions, creating three different Worlds with their own inhabitants. They are Atzilut, Beriah, Yetzirah, and Asiyah. Atzilut ("Emanation") was not "Created" ex nihilo, as it is Godliness itself - it is the emanation of Light and the "outside" of the rest of the Created worlds. The other worlds - Beriah ("Creation"), Yetzirah ("Formulation"), and Asiyah ("Action") - correspond directly to the mental processes of Chochma, Binah, and Daat, and our minds work this way because Creation is built in this way. Similar to the way that our physical material is made of the same stuff of the world (Genesis 3:19, and the scientific mantra "we are stardust"), our spiritual makeup is made of the same stuff of the world.We live in Asiyah, the lowest world. In this world, the Light of God is perfectly hidden. God, who is both immanent and transcendent, does not have an obvious presence here - there is a "darkness," called Kelipah (literally: "shells"), in each of the three lower worlds, and the darkness is thickest in Asiyah. There are also different kinds of Kelipah, both Pure and Impure, which make up the things within the world of Asiyah. Kosher food is made of Pure Kelipah and non-kosher food is made of Impure Kelipah - but we are here, in this world, in order to raise the darkness into light. In one sense, the entire purpose of Creation was to have a "darkness" to suffuse with Divine Light!
>>30839777that's the interpretation of God, that Deus Volt( >>30839481 ) went with to an extent(it also made Gan Eden into a sort of pocket reality, where Memetics can come to life and kill you)
>>30840528Holy shit that's awesome.
Went ahead and archived this for you fine gentlemen. http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/30827631/
6/?>>30840142You can read Tanya on-line, but I don't recommend doing it alone. There are some things in that text that you WILL misunderstand without a good teacher. Without a teacher you will not understand. I'm only regurgitating the small bits that my teacher taught me, and still only barely understand a fraction of it! Kabbalah is a life-long field of study that the rabbis forbade serious textual learning of without first learning EVERYTHING ELSE: You're supposed to learn the Torah first, starting with the Masoretic text, and then when you've finished the whole Written Torah you start on the basic commentaries, then when you've finished learning that you start on Mishna and Talmud, and then when you've done THAT you learn Midrash, and then - ONLY THEN - do you learn Kabbalah. This is Pardes: first the peshat, then the remez, then the drash, and then the sod.>>30840385Now, there are other purposes to Creation beyond "elevating bad to good." Kabbalah also tells us that God "had a desire" to create - that God felt like making us, either because he was bored or because he wanted someone to talk to. Personally, I think that God Created because it is part of God's essential nature to; Creation is an inevitable consequence of an infinite, and infinitely good, being. That's just my own theory (but my rabbi is hinting that elsewhere in Kabbalah this very idea is taught, so I'm waiting to learn that part!)We humans, and Jews especially, can "raise up" the Kelipah through following the Laws in the Torah. We also can subjugate our base animal nature through that process of learning Torah and of fulfilling the Commandments. This is the "Tikkun," the mission to repair the world, that we are commanded with. That is the Jew's end of the Covenant that we must fulfill, and that is why we were given the Torah.
>>30840154But anon, plenty of our current ideas about how the world works contradict previous ideas of the same nature (think Einstein vs Newton). And this trend will likely continue into the future, as well (because using different models for stuff depending on it's size is dumb).>>30840140Then the word is meaningless.Not even all that spiritual; I just enjoy occasionally playing the devil's (heh) advocate online.
7/?>>30840733I have at least a few more posts to write out, how much will be archived? All of it?>>30840808However: this tikkun is much more than a single person's job. We are Commanded to do all sorts of things, and we fail all the time. Not only do we fail frequently, but we're not even expected to be a perfect "tzaddik" (someone with no evil or animal inclination, someone who only does Holy things)! So our souls, our true selves, are each given a personal Tikkun that we carry with us through our times of service on this world. Everyone, not just Jews, are given a personal Tikkun - but non-Jews only need to follow the Seven Noahide Commandments, and their Tikkun is much less onerous. The Commandments that we have trouble fulfilling (like myself: it's shabbos and I should be at shul!) are our Tikkun, are the things we're supposed to work on. Part of my 'assignment' is to fulfill the Commandments that I struggle to do, and doing them "repairs" the world by raising up the physical objects I use to fulfill them from Kelipah to the Holy Light.Souls are not minds. When my soul is "reincarnated," the new human with my soul will not remember this life. My mind will, upon my death, shut down; I will experience ego death when I meet God, I will go through Gehenna as penance, and then I will meld with the Or Ein Sof until the Messiah comes at the End Days. Gehenna is not hell - the worst I will experience will be the spiritual manifestation of God's and my ancestor's disappointment and my guilt over my misdeeds. The better I am in this life, the shorter a time I will spend there. With very few exceptions (e.g.: Hitler), no one stays there longer than twelve months, and with very few exceptions (again, e.g.: Hitler), everyone becomes one with God afterwards. (Hitler and other Hitler-level evildoers cease to exist afterwards. Death is permanent for them.)
>>30840863The meaning of the word "Impossible" is literally adjective: not capable of occurring or being accomplished or dealt withI don't know why you're obsessed with making the concept of "impossible" spiritual.Isn't that selling your spirituality short by just resorting to doublethink along the lines of "it can never happen and then it happens"Regardless of how spiritual or not-spiritual you are, there either is something or there isn't something.In the eventuality that something happens that you could classify as "It's impossible but it happened" then that would immediately mean that that thing was not impossible.What follows is that if miracles can happen, they aren't "impossible" either. They are merely possible.
8/8>>30840952Last one!When the Messianic Era comes - and it, too, is different from the Christian or Muslim opinions - then the entire world will be suffused with the knowledge of the One God and all the dead will rise in a final resurrection. This is where my mind, and everyone else's minds, come back on-line on Earth. Since souls are recycled, most people will have souls that are shared. You will know who those people are and get a cup of coffee with them or whatever. And we'll be able to learn Torah with Moses and the rest of our leaders, all the enemies of the Jews will be defeated, peace will reign on Earth, yadda yadda yadda.(The rationalists don't like the crazy mystical stuff and don't think that war, disease, and death will end. Maimonides makes a point to note that in the Messianic age, with the exception of the widespread knowledge of God and the Resurrection, everything will go on as normal from that point on.)But what does "the world will be suffused with the knowledge of God" mean? It means that our Tikkun, our mission, will be finished. The Kelipah, the darkness, will be full of Divine Light. The barriers will still be there, since there will still be a world after the Messiah, but perhaps the veils will be a little thinner and a little more light will shine to us, through the Jews and through the Torah. At the end of this, God will offer us (Jews? Everyone? A different group?) a New Covenant - but what the terms of that Covenant will be remains to be seen.Alright! That's the end of my little lesson. Any questions?
>>30839777Um . . . not exactly. But kind of?
someone needs to make a new thread
>>30840952is hitler's condemnation to oblivion part of official jewish teachings, or is that a personal assumption just because hitler was a major league asshole?also, this thread is about to go to gehenna itself, so I recommend copy+pasting all your posts into a word document so you can easily infodump at a later date, because this is some really cool and informative shit and it's a shame not many people will see it here.
>>30841325It's not an official part of Jewish teachings - since no one really knows what happens after death - but it's a widespread assumption.Thank you. You think it'd be worth doing?
>>30841346>You think it'd be worth doing?i found it very interesting and educational. but on the other hand, it might be a while before another relevant thread comes around for you to post all this again. so it's really up to you. it just seems a shame all this will be gone in a few minutes when the thread dies.