Its a Balor. The way Garry seemed to imply the universe works is that if Frank Farmer Balor farms, its an evil farm. He is an evil farmer, and farms evil.
If its not evil, its not Balor, its something else.

I think this stems from Gary's idea that npcs dont GET to make the moral choices, and thats the thing that makes the players significant...

>>30540474
Frank in this case would be a DMNPC, though, wouldn't he .

>>30540507
Not sure what you mean, ALL NPCs are played by the DM.

File: 1393581031419.jpg-(79 KB, 510x640, 1273943740720.jpg)

79 KB JPG

I don't know OP. Tell us about your universe. Do demons and other creatures of pure evil have the capacity to be moral actors or are they slaves to their evil nature? Does Frank the balor farmer like doing evil?

Does he fertilize his farm with the rent flesh of virgins and water with the tears of orphans when people aren't looking?

Do his crops grow twisted and vile simply by virtue of being under his care?

>>30540769
I guess a better question would be can a creature who is, by nature of existence, evil perform actions that are not evil?

>>30540808
I don't see how our heritage should affect who we are as peop... monsters.

But it does raise the question and some unfortunate implications.

>>30540769
>>30540808
I bet he could produce non-evil crops if he gets them blessed by a handy neutral or good cleric.

It could even be a gimmick. "100% evil free crops!"

I was 2nd poster in this thread, I'm just following up what I said;

OP: In _GARYS_ world, the only way a Balor has the capacity to make a moral choice (or one like the decision to be a farmer) is from an outside influence.

The state of 'being an active representation of the forces of evil' is part of what defines Balor as Balor.
The only way Balor COULD do something different is because of some kind of outside influence, such as a Modron with some kind of Mind-control helmet....

The way Gary put it, is that if the god of good tortures your children, kicks a puppy and sets your head on fire unprovoked, He's doing Good actions, and the actions are good because the God is good.

Evil gods protect defenceless peasants? Protecting the peasants is somehow still an Evil act.

>>30540769
Balor has no choice but to have an evil farm, since it is always Chaotic Evil by nature. It is mentally and physically incapable of doing something that could be construed as Good or Neutral

>>30540877
What if he was somehow 'defective'?

In the comic Sandman one day Satan gets sick of leading an offensive against god that's in god's plan. He's also sick babysitting demons and of humans too for blaming him for their idiocy. So he kicks everyone out of hell, gives the key to hell to someone he doesn't like, goes to Earth, and learns to play the piano. By the end of the series he has a piano bar in LA.

>>30540890
And then he his own 70 issue comic.

File: 1393581957641.jpg-(249 KB, 1024x768, lucifer-vertigo.jpg)

249 KB JPG

>>30540890
>He is a hadsome devil.

>>30540474
I'd argue to the contrary, as Planescape does put forth the notion that while Fiends and Celestials are predominately ruled by their existance dictating their temperament, they are in fact capable of making moral decisions and understanding morality.

There's even a sidequest in the sourcebooks for Planescape wherein a Succubus and a Cornugon (or a Pit Fiend, I forget) are engaged in a Romeo and Juliet situation, and the Devil enlists the party to deliver his love letters to her in the Abyss because they need to keep the relationship a secret from their superiors.

>>30540808

That's why I asked about the universe. In some universes yes, in others no.

Perhaps Frank means no harm, but by some form of metaphysical karmic something or other, every normally benign action yields a dire consequence.

Perhaps Frank cannot make the decision to act virtuously in the first place. Perhaps given the choice, he can only do evil. Or maybe his innate decision making process precludes even thinking about doing good. Evil cannot comprehend good and all that.

It's tough analyzing a highly intelligent creature that has absolutely no moral agency.

>>30540808
>I guess a better question would be can a creature who is, by nature of existence, 75% water perform actions that are not 75% water?

>>30540055
I guess his aligment could be changed by something like a harrow deck of many things so that he isn't an evil fuck, right?

>>30540938
I think it is through sheer will power that he puts up with us inane mortals rather then rain fire and destruction upon us.

>>30540938
That logic doesn't work, since you're applying an Inner Planar comparison to an Outer Planar concept.

By which I mean the elements are unbudging and unchanging. Fire burns, wind blows, earth crushes, water drowns. However, Evil and Good are in constant flux, moved and shifted by moralities, philosophies and the age old arguments of 'Is this truly evil?' It's one of the core focal points in defining the Multiverse, no less. The Inner Planes are fixed and unyielding - the Outer Planes ebb and grow based on moral dilemmas and shifting perceptions. As such, a Balor, a being comprised ENTIRELY of Evil, can - in a one in a five thousand billion instance - be redeemed and become Good.

>>30540938
>Water elementals must perform actions that are morally water.

>>30540976
Yes they must.

I'm thinking of it this way: Frank's a hard worker, always had been. He put in his 65 generations of work at Evil Fucker incorporated, always met or exceeded his evil quota. He's put in his time, and -earned- his brimstone parachute. Frank's finally past that 'one day from retirement' gauntlet that had hundreds of adventurers and conspirators bearing down on him, turned in his last bits of paperwork, collected his pension and bought himself a plot of land somewhere so he could just raise some fuckin' carrots, and never think about evil again, until he gets bored of the farm thing and some generations from now, goes back as a private contractor or a consultant. But for now, Frank's retired, and nothing tastes better to him than fresh country air, and something he's grown himself without having to smear it in organs or something.

OP here, i meant moral implications of a party interacting with frank. Frank is evil, Frank is a motherfucking balor, everyone knows Frank is up to something, balors are 100% evil, but he just sits there eating carrots.

Frank it there to reinforce evil, a paladin comes to kill him, but Frank has done nothing evil, what does the paladin do? a mage comes looking for power, Frank hints but doesn't tell, what does a archmage do about it. The town wants Frank to move but Frank says he has a right to farm his peas what does a party do about it.

>>30541063
Frank is top-tier husbando material!

>>30540055
>so /tg/ I just want to know what the moral implications and responses are to Frank the balor farmer are
D&D's nice system shines through here. There is no moral question. It is a Balor, therefore it is evil. Killing evil things is a good act. Killing him would be a good act. Allowing evil to exist is not a good act.

>>30541083
But if we have it the opposite we might have political correctness gone wrong.

"Oh no! We can't kill the monster that's slaughtering millions, it's an endangered species!"

>>30541098
The Blood War would sooner end then Evil will become an endangered species.

>>30540976
No, neutral actions since they are Neutral.

>>30541063
I'd assume he was a BBEG for some future story arc and plan accordingly. At which point I'd probably ask what his price was for fennel.

>>30541129
cont:

I mean, it'd just be fucking over the GM to attack him then and there. Although I might go straight for him if there was a hint of the infernal in an arc.

>>30541115
All morally water acts are neutral, but not all morally neutral acts are water.
Learn the difference, it might save your non-water life.

>>30541146
Hey, I'm of a mostly water species, I think I should know a few things about morally water acts.

>>30541207
>Hey, I'm of a mostly water species, I think I should know a few things about morally water acts.

Like a self-satisfied, smug bastard you mean?

You humans are all the same.

the idea I have for Frank is for a low level party to come in to town and go holy shit what the hell its a balor, only to find that he has been there for years, not really helping the town but just kind of hanging out, taking his food to market, having a visitor every now and then when a mage comes out of the woodwork that has an idea that a balor come help with. Frank would never give anyone knowledge point blank, but Frank has been around he can point you to someone or something else, let the target land of someone else's back. The subtle evil, just I don't know planting a idea. He likes to mess with religious folk, tries to goat them in to bad decisions, see if words can get him the justification he would need to pop them like a zit, and hey if not at least he got the idea of it in their head.

I just like the idea of presenting Frank to a party and seeing where they draw the line, how much bullshit can Frank cause before Frank has to go, and how the hell are you going to make the hellish monstrosity leave? I mean who can you turn to? and how far do you have to go? is it worth it?

Encounter a serial killer who's retired to farming. You look at him and know beyond any doubt he's murdered thousands. He could also kill me and my party dead, but he just sits there eating his carrot.

Checklist:
1. Does Frank have access to important information or items needed for my quest? If yes, begin negotiations.
2. If we don't need his services can my party take him? Attack if yes, good or lawful, and on crusade. If no and good otherwise, leave.
3. If evil, find out what he can hook us up with.
4. If neutral, flip a coin.

>>30541207
http://www.scribd.com/doc/28496842/Planescape-Inner-Planes
Page 10.

Educate yourself, bitch.

I don't know much about the universe, but could he have been cursed by something? He has to farm, and he can't do anything outright evil. Truth be told, he could break the curse pretty easily, but secretly, he likes the farming life.
So he'll complain about it sometimes while having a social drink with his fellow farmers, but he never actually does anything about it.

>>30541491
It can happen. Fhjull Fork-Tongue from Planescape: Torment comes to mind. Though he did not like his curse to be helpful and kind at all.

Usually, you can't really force a fiend to become good - it's something that they have to come to of their own accord.

>>30541063
If I'm reading your post right and this carrot farm somehow advances the cause of Evil, then Frank is either being (very subtly) Evil on purpose or because it's his nature, so the party is right to smite him even im he isn't doing something clearly Evil at the moment.

If Frank has truly retired from Evil and his farm is just a farm, a party would be both wrong amd racist to smite him on sight.

>>30541098
Fortunately we have
>D&D Alignment

We don't even need to pretend to answer that question, it is evil. If we are to be good we must end it.

>>30541565
'Cept that it's a Balor, which means it's a Tanar'ri, and Tanar'ri aren't really so much interested in subtlty, or advancing the cause of evil - both of those are Baatezu ideals. A Tanar'ri's focus is on destruction and annihilation - Chaos, in other words.

>>30541063
>But Frank has done nothing evil, what does the paladin do?
How is this a question? He's a Balor he is 100% Evil from your own text!

SMITE EVIL

>>30541361
Generally you turn to the church, who in turn turns to adventurers.

Here's a question, how has Frank the Balor gone unnoticed for so long? Shouldn't the reigning noble have sent someone to deal with this?

>>30541591
your right Frank should be a pit fiend

>>30541565
>>30541590
>>30541631

where is the line thought? at what point and with how much proof does frank get condemned? what do you do once he is condemned? assume a lower level party

>>30541590
Hmm, would it be possible and enjoyable to play a character who gives zero shits about the enforced system of morality in DnD/PF and acts according to IRL moral systems?

>>30541660
You don't need proof, Frank is by definition evil. A low level party that cares about the cause of goodness should try to get higher level NPCs involved.

>Self righteous paladin says HOLD THE FUCK ON, THIS AIN'T RIGHT
>Uses detect evil
>Balor detects as evil
>Carrot Balor is pulling detects as evil

It would be amusing for all of his crops to technically detect as evil or something.

>>30541660
He is a Balor.

That is the line of thought
That is the proof
That is the execution order

All that's left is accomplishing it, this is understandably difficult given the level involved but possible. Here's someone's shot at it; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8972682&postcount=121

>>30541678
Easily, you would of course still be on the grid and therefore still be subjected to it. And if you ended up in the wrong place at the wrong alignment you would get the same response as Frank the Balor.

>>30541651
I like to think that Frank hasn't gone unnoticed, it's that there isn't a easy way to get rid of him and at times its danm helpful to have some one to point in the direction of evil both for the ambitious and the righteous, frank ain't above snitching

>>30541702
>Players should attempt to form a mob to lynch a farmer on the basis of his origin

Sounds real good aligned to me.

>>30541702
Just give frank player levels.

>>30541702
Wait just a minute.I've known him my whole life, as my father before me and his father before him.

He is good mo.. man! A good man! Never had any better!

>>30541717
In that case Frank could remain until such as time as someone properly prepared and directed has no greater, or more immediate, evil to banish.

>>30541718
As it should, his origin is Evil.

>>30541083
Bullshit.
PLANESCAPE TO THE RESCUE
Yay, you can have a LG sucubus now, there's one in the vidya and everything.

>>30540474
>and farms evil.
So he grows soybeans then?

>>30541718
If his origin makes him evil then it's a good act. D&D morality is pretty clear cut.

>>30541717
>Village plagued by mountain trolls
>Frank Stars farming mainly because it's fucking hilarious to see villagers get eaten alive each night by trolls
>Carrots are coming along nicely
>Frank wakes up one night for a long enjoyable night of watching villagers and heros die
>Troll footprints in carrots
>6 ft pile of troll shit on the only ones without footprints
>Frank goes apeshit and kills the trolls
>Now stays solely to kill any trolls or green-skinned creatures that walk by his farm
>Villagers are kind of ok with it as they don't get killed as much

>>30541751
To be fair, Fall-From-Grace is considered a horrific abomination by her own kind.

It's one thing for a demon to be redeemed and turn Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good. At the very least they are still adhering to their CORE nature, which is Chaos. Good and Evil is in flux at all times, usually, bure Law and Chaos are often in a bit more rigid structure.

So for Grace to be a LAWFUL Good, redeemed Succubus doesn't just make her a filthy traitor to her own kind, it makes her a horrific freakshow that doesn't belong ANYWHERE.

That's her brand of 'Torment', her identity crisis of not knowing who she is supposed to be.

>>30541747
Just because he has never committed an evil act doesn't make him less evil, or innocent. If Frank is a balor then killing him is irrefutably good-aligned act.

>>30541751
What point are you trying to make here? The alignment of some succubus has no bearing on Frank the Balor's pending execution.

He is from the land of Evil and made of Evil. Killing him is good.

>Live in a small farming village, more accurately adjacent to it. Just me, my wife and kids.
>Abandoned farm nearby, too much work to try and take care of two farms.
>One day a fucking portal to hell opens up in the middle of the night, scares my dog into barking.
>Giant pig-faced demon steps out, real ugly. Apologizes for the noise and proceeds over into the next house.
>Write it off as a dream, wake up when he knocks on the door and asks to borrow some seeds.
>Not about to say no to a demon, lend him some seeds. Make mental note to report him to the authorities later.
>Keep forgetting to report him, dude's already started farming. Constantly asking for pointers, demons don't know shit about farming.
>Kids take a shine to him, he helps baby sit them when the wife falls ill from The Azure Plague.
>Adventurers swing by, he points them at The Azure Tower where an Azure Mage spreads his disease. Mental note: Azure plagues are caused by Azure Mages.
>Adventurers kill the mage, wife is cured. Demon ain't so bad.
>Villagers hear about this, storm over with pitchforks.
>Kids start crying, Demon doesn't put up any resistance.
>Take out my crossbow and scare the villagers away.
>I swear to fuck that it was because theywere standing on my property.
>Demon laughs, he offers me a turnip.
>Not bad.

>>30541807
Balors come form the same place as Succubi. However, the point I think he was trying to make is that Frank the Balor MIGHT be good. However, if he is not of a good alignment, then the argument is moot.

After all, a Redeemed Balor, even if it CAME from the Abyss, does not ping as Evil. It pings as Neutral or Good, depending on its alignment.

>>30541751
Oh please, she's mary sue tier unique snowflake, in any other context you'd laugh how shitty character she is.

>>30541716
Okay, more importantly, would anyone want to play a campaign based on
>>30541678
Say the PCs come from some other universe that doesn't have an alignment grid or something.
Would it be fun?

>>30541824
The fact that frank could prevent evil and does not is evil.

He could never redeem himself through action, he could fight for good that would just simply be less evil than before. Even suicide is evil. He can never not be evil. Just be as little evil as possible.

>>30541835
That describes about 90% of video game characters.

>>30541825
OP already confirmed Frank's Evil nature, and if he hadn't you would simply need a party that could Dispel and Detect to confirm it either way.

>>30541870
I'd say most people ALREADY play campaigns like that, most people in D&D are True Neutral. For some reason everyone seems to forget that you don't hop across the grid like a life or death game of hopscotch, you gradually shift in accordance with your behavior. The outer circle of alignments are for extreme personalities, not common ones.

>>30541889
>The fact that frank could prevent evil and does not is evil.

By that logic, neutral, chaotic hell anything other than LG is evil.

>>30541894
>Lawful Good Succubus
>Godless Cleric
>Tragic Past
>No Real Flaws

Vidya my ass that bitch is fanfic tier.

>>30541835
>mary sue tier unique snowflake

..Not really. I mean, she's rare as fuck, but she's not an impossible existance. But that's pretty much precisely WHY she's a party member. She doesn't belong anywhere because her existance is the polar opposite of everything that a Chaotic Evil Succubus. That was the entire POINT of Planescape, to introduce characters who have a hard time coming to grips with their identity, or a lack thereof. You have Morte, who doesn't remember anything about himself save for that he DESERVED to be on the Pillar of Skulls, you have Dak'kon, a githzerai that's been enslaved by his own free will when his entire CULTURE abhors the notion of being enslaved once more. You have Nordom, an embodiment of Order and Law that's gone borked and turn to Chaos. Everyone in the party is meant to represent the idea of not 'belonging' somehow. That includes Grace.

>>30541889
>The fact that frank could prevent evil and does not is evil.
Nope. That's neutral, either chaotic or true neutral depending on whether or not he's required to render aid.

>>30541889
>The fact that frank could prevent evil and does not is evil.
But by (some of the posters in) this very thread, he can't prevent evil. He literally cannot prevent evil, which itself is not evil!

>>30541897
No, I meant a game where the existence of the alignment grid takes centre stage, the entire game is based around the alignment grid and how it's incompatible with their own existences.
Basically, the PCs are eldritch abominations on a quest to destroy good and evil.

>>30541825
>After all, a Redeemed Balor, even if it CAME from the Abyss, does not ping as Evil. It pings as Neutral or Good, depending on its alignment.

No, they still ping as evil, even if their alignment is Lawfull Good. As a demon, he still is an Oustider [Evil] and that part also pings the paladin evil radar.

>>30541909
More evil than LG, true.

>Live in a small farming village, more accurately adjacent to it. Ma died a few years ago, pa followed after. Sister married a paladin, what a trolllicker.
>Demon lives next door, been there long as I can remember.
>Live with dog and wife, demon sometimes comes over to play with it.
>New king rises, declares a more active demon hunt.
>Sister comes home to visit, brings paladin husband.
>Sister hasn't told the trollicker about the demon next door yet. Demon shows up for dinner like usual.
>Fucking awkward.
>Paladin waves his cancer laser all over the room. Yells "Smite Evil" while swinging it around everywhere, cuts my fucking dog.
>Demon laughs, disintegrates Paladin's sword. Disintegrates his clothes.
>Trollicker and bitch sister run off. Wife bandages up dog while me and Demon laugh about the Paladin's dagger.
>Next morning a dozen Paladins show up, led by some young chosen crusader chick.
>Run to village and gather friends, Demon makes the best carrots in town.
>Chase off Paladins, the carrots are worth the inexplicable demonic wailing at night.
>Crusader chick stays around town to watch demon.

>>30541935
>>30541909
Frank inherently owes that to good by being evil.
Somebody that is neutral would not.

>>30541942
I would call that an Evil campaign in D&D. Destroying universal concepts is crazed supervillain tier, it's like wanting to destroy fire.

I'd play it though, could be fun.

>>30541925
>Lawful Good Succubus
Legit by Planescape standards.
>Godless Cleric
Ya got me on that one.
>Tragic Past
EVERYONE in the Party has one. If anything, not having one would make her even MORE of a Mary Sue than what you're claiming.
>No Real Flaws
By what definition? Everyone hates her because the Goodly sorts snub the idea of a Demon 'posing' as good. Demons want her dead for being an abomination, Devils want her dead because "Kill the fucking tanar'ri scum!" and god help her if she ever falls in love with someone because just touching them drains the life out of them, and KISSING them kills them outright. Even the Nameless One, if he kisses her, plonks down dead on his ass with zero ability to resist. Sure, he gets up again, and that's one of the main reasons Grace is drawn to him - he very well might be the only guy she can get with that won't DIE from being around her.

>>30541926
I imagine that all makes perfect sense to someone who actually played the game but that honestly sounds like the worst kind of fanfiction.

File: 1393588049181.jpg-(103 KB, 1280x720, 1368918415978.jpg)

103 KB JPG

>>30541956
>Crusader chick stays around town to watch demon.
This is starting to sound familiar somehow.

>>30541946
That's retarded. When was it ever like that? Detect Evil should be detecting the actual alignment of things, not the energy itself.

>>30541993
it does both doesn't it? wouldn't he show up on a detect good as well?

>>30541980
Planescape: Torment is one of those things that sounds fucking retarded when you explain it, but when you play it it actually comes together way better and tells a really good story.

>>30541969
It'd stop being an evil campaign if they succeed, because objective evil would not exist anymore.
Might end up genociding fiends and celestials, though, could be a moral choice later on.

>>30541979
The kind of flaws that make her 'oh so tragic' are damn near Mary Sue Core. But I personally consider MSCore to be the, fix everything because she's perfect. MSecond is the woe is me spotlight whore.

FFG is MSecond like a muthafucka

>>30541956
Defending an evil outsider is evil, the entire village takes a hit on their alignment. They'd probably yield XP if PCs killed them now.

>>30542011
> Your character can't be disliked, or they'll be a Mary Sue!

>>30542008
The amount of murder required and resulting from that plan would in fact make in real world evil and D&D Evil. I don't think you understand just how fundamental Good and Evil are in D&D, ripping them out would literally be the equivalent of destroying gravity in ours.

And it's still an Evil campaign because they act with the intent of widespread destruction all the way to the end of the campaign where they destroy the universe.

>>30542024
Since when does alignment come into play in how much XP something drops? You can kill angels for XP, you realize.

>Live in a small farming village, more accurately adjacent to it. Third generation of farmers.
>Demon lives next door, freaky as hell.
>Demon has hot tiefling daughter. 'Parently mother was a paladin.
>Literally on fire half the time.
>Begin courting daughter, go to Demon's house for dinner.
>Demon does not appreciate me courting his daughter. Whispers that he's going to eat me alive whenever she leaves the room.
>Try to find conversation topic.
>See picture of Demon with pa winning the annual carrot festival.
>Hit it off with Demon, he's really into carrots.
>Have a few drinks, enjoy the night, Demon knows how to party.
>Wake up next morning in his field. A dozen burning sheep corpses surrounding me.
>Demon steps out into the field, tosses me a carrot and laughs. Says I can marry his daughter.
>Fucking demons.

>>30542027
>Disliked
Hated by literally everyone yet somehow still alive? Yeah Mary Sue

>>30541801
>Just because he has never committed an evil act doesn't make him less evil, or innocent.

That is exactly what it means though. Hence the conundrum.

Makes me wonder if this is how Frank serves the cause of Evil. Tempting Adventurers into killing him and going down a dark path for it.

>>30542083
it is

>>30542068
>>30541956
>>30541824
These are fukken halarious

>>30542069
I don't think you know the meaning of that word.

If that alone was enough to make someone a Mary-Sue in a land of player characters then every single character/npc worth mentioning would be Sue.

You also realize that Dislike doesn't equal hatred, right?

>>30542069
Last I checked she didn't get to where she was easily. It's somewhat implied that she might be scarred as shit under those robes. Plus she's been hiding away in Sigil for a while now, because it's the only neutral territory that would shelter her.

You're seriously just looking for excuses to hate on Grace now. She's not even my most liked character from the game, but she's nowhere near bad as you're making her out to be.

>>30542051
Eh, I'd rule it that at the level required to actually complete this campaign (considering that the enemies at this point would be gods, archfiends, elemental lords and pretty much everyone else) they would be able to warp reality to such a degree that they might have a shot at it.

>>30542063
GMs usually don't give XP for killing harmless NPCs, but do for dangerous cultists (even though they have same hit dice).

>>30542068
>Demon lives next door, freaky as hell.
>Demon has hot tiefling daughter. 'Parently mother was a paladin.

How? A tiefling is the result of a Demon being the grandsire or further along. A straight-up half-demon is a Cambion. Learn your fucking definitions, bitch! Just because 4E decided to make all tieflings look like Cambions doesn't make them so.

>>30541993
It just detects evil. You need to concentrate for a few turns to even pinpoint the evil. It's level 1 spell.
>>30542001
Yes, he would, since he's good. He's a being of evil with a good alignment.

>>30541925
I see your point. I never played Planescape (and I swear, all this `YUO MUST PLAY IT!!1111!!!` crap makes me want to play it even less), but video games just seem thick with characters like that. Especially RPG's.

I used to love RPG's, but recently they appeal to me less and less. Mostly because you spend huge amounts of time dealing with shittily written characters. The last "real" RPG I played was Dragon Age, and that shit had me wishing for a "slap them upside the head" button. Goddamn, the characters in that game would just not shut the fuck up.

I guess this is why I like TES. No baggage, no monologues, no pretending that clicking through a novel written months before I even installed the game is somehow roleplaying.

File: 1393588878352.png-(504 KB, 800x996, 44e6 5.png)

504 KB PNG

>>30541979
I've seen this before...

>>30542125
I usually dole out the XP for overcoming a challenge. It wouldn't matter if the NPC farmers were evil or good, they'd give shit to none XP for being killed. Kill a solar or the like though? Right up there with killing a balor in terms of the XP gains.

Is he friends with Rapestab McGenocide?

>>30542138
You lost me.

>>30542068
you know, after this happens how much friendish blood would enter the local gene pool? I mean frank would be down for boning any one who wanted some, and it's not like he is going to die of old age

>>30542083
There is no conundrum. Frank is a balor and therefore evil. Even if he spent his entire life doing good deeds he'd still be evil and deserving death. A good aligned god would applaud a paladin killing him even if Frank had just saved some orphans from a burning building. Letting him go would make the paladin fall, conversely.

>>30542111
So just enough of a dislike to give her the appropriate level of tragic isolation be emo about?

>>30542114
Well feel free to type something that doesn't make her sound like a Sue to convince me, I don't have to look the two sources of information I've gotten so far were quite enough.

>>30542138
Eh, Nardo doesn't really play that up outside of shitty fanfiction. He's a Stu for sure, but not because he's hated.

>>30542169
>Live in a small farming village, more accurately adjacent to it.
>IN THE YEAR 50XXX.
>DEMONIC CARROT FARMERS HAVE OVERRUN THE WORLD, AND ONLY I, THE MEAT PALADIN CAN STOP THIS TAINT.

>>30542155
>Hated By Everyone, Yet Full of Love[re: Lawful Good]
>Believe It![re: Cleric with no God
>Tragic Past centered around being a demon
>Spends life following the first person to "Get Them"

>>30542179
No man. Good and Evil are not things you are.
They're what you do, even in D&D with it's retarded ass Alignment system.

You don't spread pain, misery and suffering for your own gain or enjoyment, you're not evil.

You attack a farmer who's minding his own business and not bothering anybody, you are.

>>30542184
Anymore, it doesn't play it up anymore.

After the timeskip Naruto flipped from Antichrist to Messaih in terms of problems to deal with.

>>30542123
Oh there's no doubt it's something you could do, it's just an actively Evil thing to seek since it would likely kill everyone not on an elemental plane. In fact I'm fairly certain that goal is the reason outsiders get tagged Evil in D&D the desire to fucking destroy very important shit.

Given how chaotic demons are, it's more plausible that anomalies like this would spring up from them than from devils. I would, however, be quite interested to know what would lead to a balor losing its all-consuming hatred and bloodlust.

>>30542136
You don't play vidya RPGs for the roleplaying, you play them for the math crunching and HOPE beyond hope for a more than mediocre story.

Personally I can't stand TES, bare bones gameplay.

>>30542209
Demons and angels don't have choice in the matter. They're either evil or good, and nothing is going to change that. Killing a balor is a good act, regardless of its convictions.

>>30542234
No, I meant 'do it without destroying everything'.
It'd need a lot more work, jump the difficulty of the campaign up a few orders of magnitude and probably involve fighting the extradimensional imprint of Gygax's psyche on his creation, but I'd let them do it.
They're already breaking the in-universe laws, after all.

>>30542209
>Good and Evil are not things you are.
They are in D&D, that's why 'always' can be in the alignment description.

>>30541979
Good grief, just use a damn Death Ward spell.

>>30542264
'Cept for things like fallen celestials, redeemed fiends, Lawful-aligned Slaadi, Chaotic-aligned Modrons, and more.

You're full of shit, son. Leave the philosophy with dice to the real bloods who know the Dark of things.

>>30542264
>Demons and angels don't have choice in the matter.
From where I stand, Frank seems to be making a choice right now. Keeping to himself, not causing anyone harm. Not doing evil.

If all Evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing, isn't the inverse true?

If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, is it any different from the road out?

>>30542280
Technically, even "always" doesn't mean "no exceptions." It mentions in the Monster Manual that exceptions can exist even to that, just extremely rarely.

>>30542264
Risen fiends don't appear very often, but fallen celestials do (even though they shouldn't be any more common); a lot of devils were that, in fact, especially archdevils.

>>30542295
Angels and demons aren't real people like humans, they're more like good/evil elementals.

>>30542308
Technically, there WOULD be more Fallen Celestials than there are Redeemed Fiends - because it's easier to be evil than it is to be good, ya know?

Mind you, Fallen doesn't mean that the Celestial becomes Evil. A Fallen Celestial can also be Neutral-aligned. All it really takes to become Fallen, normally, is to turn your back on the deities who profess and command 'The Greater Good'. The moment you disagree with the Good-aligned deities and their doctrines, even if it just means you want to show more lenience and be less morally black-and-white, they kick you to the curb and you become Fallen.

>>30542339
>they're more like good/evil elementals.

Not even remotely close. Elementals ARE unyielding and unbending in their ideals and their ways, because they are made out of raw, pure energies. Celestials and Fiends are IDEAS made manifest. And an idea can always grow, and evolve and develop over time to become something else.

>>30542348
Eh, I never found it easier to be evil than good.
Physically easier, perhaps, but no more.

>>30542295
I want to ask where you got the assumption that Slaadi could not be lawful and where you ran into any of those things?

>>30542348
There's nothing wrong with showing lenience, assuming that by lenience you meant mercy. However, celestials are in a unique position to know exactly what's good and what's not, so breaking from that would seem to have fewer excuses.

Also, celestials aren't really answerable to the deities as a rule, just the power of the good alignment and their native planes. Angels may be an exception to this.

>>30542362
Elementals have no inherent ties to alignment and thus can change it more easily than celestials or fiends.

>>30542179
>Frank is a balor and therefore evil. Even if he spent his entire life doing good deeds he'd still be evil and deserving death.
>deserving death

>Letting him go would make the paladin fall, conversely.

>Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

>punish those who harm or threaten innocents
>help those in need (as long as they do not do bad things with that help)

Yeah, stuff it up your hole. A paladin by their basic tenets don't have to do shit against Evil, only Evil that harms or threatens innocents. At the very most all they HAVE to do is not provide any help to them because "THEY ARE EVIL BALOR THEY CARROTS WILL BE EVIL CARROTS!!!!"

>>30542302
Just because he's not doing evil doesn't mean he's not evil. He's a balor and by definition evil regardless of what he does or doesn't do.

>>30542371
>Slaadi could not be lawful
You mean besides the fact that their plane of origin is fucking LIMBO, and that there's a specific creature type of lawful-aligned Slaadi that's touted as being wholly unique because it's lawful, as opposed to the always-chaotic 'normal' Slaadi?

>>30542373
Elementals are more alignmentally-fluid, but their way of thinking is more strict and rigid. If they think one thing, then it just is. They can't be swayed on it. Celestials and fiends can be, with great effort.

>>30542362
Angels and demons are made from raw, pure good or evil.

>>30542377
>she respect legitimate authority
>Her God
Who should be Lawful Good and therefore actively opposed to Balors, especially since they kind of destroy everything around them by being there and are thus threatening innocents.

More importantly the Paladin should be Lawful Good and thus actively dedicated to opposing Evil, which Frank is made of.

>>30542379
Is his evil hurting anyone? No? Then how is it evil? Wait, yes, it is hurting someone? Then he should be stopped for hurting someone.

Not every evil must be smote into the ground, especially when the cost is too great. Other exigent means exist, like containment, forbiddance, isolation. Let him farm on a floating island in the night sky, see what evils he can raise there.

>>30542398
Except they're not. Because 'good' and 'evil' are abstract concepts, and not actual energies.

>>30542252
Well, I got really hooked with Morrowind. The appeal of TES is just getting to live the adventurer's life in this weird fantasy world that functions a lot like the real world, rather than there being one word of God truth like in most fantasy.

I've never really played a RPG with super-solid gameplay. Oldschool RPG's like Baldur's Gate just have plain horrible combat, and Dragon Age's combat was boring and tedious. I suppose Mass Effect was alright, but that went tits-up with ME2.

TES just kinda lets you do whatever. Obviously Morrowind more so than Oblivion and Skyrim. Morrowind's gameplay was probably the most complex. After that, they nixed feature after feature in the quest for accessibility and culling exploits, until Skyrim just became a mediocre dungeon crawler set in a beautiful, mysterious world. I spent more time arguing with my friends that the Imperials are obviously right, than I did discussing strategies to beat enemies. Because you need none.

Figured that the tryhard, borderline anti-semetic metalhead socialist sided with the Stormcloaks...

>>30542377
Paladins cannot knowingly commit an evil act without falling; this is unquestionably true.

Letting an evil outsider live is an evil act.

>>30542410
>they kind of destroy everything around them by being there
Except this balor... ISN'T destroying everything around them by being there. They're farming. Not even the destructive kind of tree burning farming, just normal plouging the land farming. Can you really call it still a Balor if it's not wrecking shit up?

Here's a better question. If a Balor isn't doing evil, then perhaps it's not a Balor any more? Can you lose your Balorship like a paladin falling?

>>30542432
Yeah, it's called being Redeemed. It happens when a Fiend turns Good or Neutral in alignment. They usually retain their Chaotic aspect if they're a demon, though. It's just in their nature, after all.

>>30542396
You mean a gormeel slaadi? They aren't really unique so much as another Slaadi recolor.

>>30542431
>Letting an evil outsider live is an evil act.

>evil bastard gates in an evil imp on the moon, tells everyone in paladin barracks through a letter

>all paladins who hear about it fall because they don't immediately start making rockets to go to the moon, and commit an evil act by letting an evil outsider live

Yeah, enjoy.

>>30542444
They're unique amongst Slaadi in that they're the only lawful-aligned Slaad out there. The only other deviations from Slaadi norms are certain Green Slaadi which turn Chaotic Good, and the Death Slaadi who are Chaotic Evil.

Generally speaking other Slaadi are just Chaotic Neutral, as the polar opposite to Mechanus' Lawful Neutral.

>>30542411
In D&D good and evil are quantifiable attributes, much like weight or volume. Evil is evil regardless if anyone is getting hurt or not.

>>30542411
Whether someone is actively being hurt is not the point, the good strive to prevent that hurt from ever occuring. And I recommend banishment in the first place as it is a far easier task that actually slaying Frank. Either way he needs to go.

>>30542431
>Paladins cannot knowingly commit an evil act without falling; this is unquestionably true.

>Letting an evil outsider live is an evil act.

"Right, I'm still fighting this balor here, but I'm pretty badly beaten up and out of Lay on Hands, I'm going to go down with the next blow, I take the Full Defensive action and move back five feet so the cleric can heal me"

"You fall."

"What? Why?!"

"You're letting an evil outsider live a few more seconds. That's evil, you know. Fall."

"What the fuck, DM"

>>30542413
Good and Evil are both energies and physical constructs in D&D.

>>30542413
see
>>30542467

>>30542485
Well, then by all means point me to the Inner Planes then. I'd love to go see the Elemental Plane of Good.

>>30542432
Frank is still doing evil, he just isn't blatant about it, pointing a evil mage in the direction of a contact to supply him, doing everything he can to get a paladin to strike at him, encouraging evil behavior in others

>>30542423
>Mass Effect was alright, but that went tits-up with ME2.
My Friend!

For my part I reccommend Dragon's Dogma, the story rather generic, to start with, Chosen One off to slay the dragon and all that but it's damn good fun. And I do feel for you, TES is just the leader in tossing away all the good stuff it had before.

>>30542504
If there's Elemental Planes of Good, and clerics have access to plane shift, why don't the good gods simply move everyone good to the elemental planes of Good?

confusedfrodo.jpg

>>30542516
oh and jaywalking

>>30542474
>>30542451
No-one said that the path of paladin is an easy one.

This is a wonderful example of why I hate D&D's bullshit alignment system so much.

>>30542451
If the closest evil they know of is that imp on the moon then yes they should pray to Houstan.

>>30542531
positive plane of energy, fills you will such life that you pop like a zit

>>30542516
>doing everything he can to get a paladin to strike at him, encouraging evil behavior in others

>Frank was totally asking to be smote by that paladin, it's Frank's fault, he shouldn't have gone out in that skimpy looking outfit and have that bulky demon body

please don't make me go full sjw it hurts too much

>>30542500
If that were the case, then summoning elementals wouldn't be altered like it is in Planescape. If good/evil was an actual energy that could manifest as an elemental, then if you cast 'Summon Elemental' in Baator, you'd summon a Baatezu.

'Cept that you don't, and instead the spell can't reach the Elemental Planes, and instead constructs an elemental using the actual, physical elements of the plane itself. The elemental is then of a Lawful Evil alignment by default because it's been handcrafted from the very materials of the PLANE you're on. Not some fictituous 'evil energy'.

This is right up there with the nonsense of claiming Negative Energy is evil, and therefore all Necromancers are EEEVIIIIL.

Even though, y'know, back in 2E, Cure Light Wounds was a Necromancy spell.

>>30542504
It's called the positive energy plane.

>>30542547
Popping people, especially good people, like a zit isn't good at all. I think you're full of shit at saying the positive elemental plane is the plane of elemental Good.

>>30542547
>>30542559
Positive Energy Plane isn't Good-aligned, though. Just like the Negative Energy Plane isn't Evil-aligned. That anyone would think so tells only of their ignorance.

Wait, celestials can fall, right? (That's an actual question. In my setting, sure they can, but I don't know about D&D)

Wasn't Asmodeus a good guy at first?

So why can't a fiend ascend?
Those are both actions fundamentally opposed to the outsiders' nature, but things like that CAN happen, right?

Either way, Frank is now an NPC in my campaign

>>30542432
>If a Balor isn't doing evil, then perhaps it's not a Balor any more?
Yeah pretty much, not really the concern here though.

>>30542458
And the Chaotic Good Slaadi, weird to type that word 'slaadi', are the only Chaotic Good Slaadi and the Chaotic Evil the only Chaotic Evil and the Chaotic Neutral the only Chaotic Neutral. Clearly Slaadi aren't all that pinned down in terms of alignment.

>>30542546
>two vampire demons move between two paladins, each one 10 feet away from the other
>if they both move towards one vampire demon one of them falls because he's not attacking the nearest evil

>>30542531
I'd assume it's because they want to extend their sphere of influence. You have to remember that good doesn't mean benevolent, just opposed to evil.

>>30542504
Take your pick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane

>>30542570
Yes they are.

>>30542598
That's absurd. Otherwise, one of either devils or demons would be considered "good."

>>30542585
But he is attacking the nearest evil, it's the one he just moved closer to. Hell he's safe simply because he's actively in pursuit of a nearby evil.

>>30542583
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Slaadi are birthed from chaos in the first place, they are chaotic by their very nature, so yes, they swing to and fro from Neutral to Evil to Good. However, they are ALWAYS Chaotic. Save for the sole selection, the Gormeel Slaad. Which is described as 'so chaotic that it went the whole circle round and came out lawful'.

So yes. They are clearly pinned down in terms of alignment. They're Chaotic. One way or another, they're Chaotic. The outliers are the Gormeel Slaadi. Just like Rogue Modrons are the Chaotic outliers to the Lawful creatures of Mechanus.

Just like how a Lawful Good Celestial can become a Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral Fallen Celestial. Or a Chaotic Evil Demon can become a Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good Redeemed Demon.

The point is that they are manifested from ideas and philosophies - and because those things are fluid and can change with some influence as to their existance, so too can the creatures that are created from them.

>>30542585
They're still engaging both in combat and are all on the same battlemat, doesn't count.

>>30542603
The Outer Planes are created from Thought. Not from the Elements. So.. nope. Please point me towards the Elemental Plane of Good, as located in the Inner Planes. Because apparently 'Good' is an energy now. It's definitely not the Positive Energy Plane, at least, since that's neither Good nor Evil.

>>30542616
No, they're not. At least bother to learn what the fuck you're talking about.

>>30542247
this is really what I want help with, what mellowed frank out

>>30542622
So it's ok to let an evil go to pursue a different evil? Ok, why does anyone need to attack frank, then, given he's not actually doing anything evil except existing?

>>30542646
Maybe he spent too much time in Mechanus or one of the other Orderly planes. Could be that Frank is a 'deviant', and got really interested in order and law. Basically he's the equivalent of a kiddyfucker in the eyes of other tanar'ri. Constantly sneaking off to read books on law and rules and regulations, always having to hide his fetish because he knows nobody understands why he loves rules so much.

>>30542646
He really likes carrots. I mean, really. Bloodlust and crap just got in the way of making carrots the way he wanted.

>>30542661
"Frank, what are you hiding underneath your bed of bones and guts."

"Nothing! Get lost! Don't look under there!"

"My Lawyer Can't Be This Rule-Abiding? What the fuck is wrong with you, Frank?!"

>>30542556
Balor's are not Elementals they are Outsiders, I have no idea why you would expect the summoning to be the same.

>>30542620
Consider this:
Orcs attack a village, kill and steal. Since they're evil creatures this is an evil act and morally wrong.
PCs attack orc village, kill and take loot. Since orcs are evil creatures this is a good act and morally right.
Simple as that!

>>30542673
Tell that to the idiots claiming that Good and Evil are now elemental energies.

>>30542627
The Gormeel have a D&D wacky explanation for why they are the way the are but the point was that their are enough of them being Lawful for it to not be a very unique thing and therefore don't fit in a discussion on the nature of Balors which do not have a whole faction, that I know of, dedicated to the opposite of their usual ways.

Anyone instantly see it in a chair on a porch next to a shotgun

>>30542687
do you think it would be a vorpal shotgun?

>>30542657
Because he is the closest evil you know of and you are serve Good, or because passing him by would mean leaving Evil to fester.

>>30542686
Gormeel are unique in the sense that they are a unique existance within Slaadi themselves. They are an aspect of Chaos turned to Law. That makes them unique - their frequency doesn't somehow negate that. If that were true then Fallen Angels would be a pointless and foregone topic to bring up because those happen far more often than a Fiend becoming Redeemed.

>>30542641
The elemental plane of good is the positive energy plane, all good-aligned planes are adjacent to it. Same for evil-aligned planes and negative energy plane.

>>30542680
So good and evil then are entirely separate to the concepts of right and wrong? A good act could be considered morally reprehensible and an evil act benign?

>>30542704
In what asstarded universe did that become a thing? Is this some kind of 4E moronic nonsense that got conjured up or something?

>>30542704
Um... no? The Positive Energy Plane has no inherent alignment traits, and it's in the Inner Planes, so the Material Plane is between it and the good-aligned planes.

>>30540055
Epic level adventurer finds out his true name and orders him to run a farm. He cannot raise an army, nor can he barter the souls of mortals. He cannot interfere with anyone from the infernal planes and he cannot challenge the gods. He grows wheat and cabbage. Carrots and peas are his armies. Cows and chickens are his minions. For 1000 years he was sentenced to this punishment. He's been at it for six millennium. Kings pay fortunes for his cheeses. His cows and pigs win every county fair. The farm is 500 acres large and staffed by his various half fiend offspring.

He is happy.

>>30542657
Him existing is evil enough.

>>30542721
I think he's basically just trolling at this point. Ignore the guy.

>>30542527
PC gamer here, though. So no Dragon's Dogma for me.

I heard Drakensang was good, though.

>>30542641
>Each Outer Plane is usually the physical manifestation of a particular moral and ethical alignment
They are literally made of good and evil, the dirt and water are literally made good and evil.

>>30542646
so balors are made from the souls of horrible and powerful people, what if every single soul that frank is made from regretted not becoming a farmer

>>30542681
Angels and demons are not literal elementals, but are associated with good and evil much like fire elemental is associated with fire and water elemental is associated with water.

>>30542740
And good and evil are ideas. Basically, the Outer Planes are dream-stuff made solid. They aren't ACTUAL elements or energies. They're ideas that you can touch. Holy shit, this isn't hard to understand.

>>30542339

This is actually a very good description.

>>30542713
In D&D, yes. You can thank Gary Gygax.

>>30542696
+1 against pesky young'uns

>>30542687
I see it as an unpleasant farmer who doesn't want to be bothered, but fits in perfectly with the entire community that rolls the same.

I mean, these are the guys with the torches and the pitchforks. Figures they'd take to each other like a fish to water.

>>30541979
>Godless Cleric
>Ya got me on that one.
"Godless Cleric" is also legit by Planescape standards.

>>30542715
From the Planescape setting, so 1995 or thereabouts?

>>30542770
Ah, I didn't know that. So much lore from Planescape to go around, it's sometimes hard to keep track of everything - but that's part of the fun as well, it's a never-ending discovery journey. Well in that case, fuck the guy who called her a Mary Sue then.

>>30542701
Neither Fallen Angels nor Redeemed Demons occur with any regularity from what I've seen.

Gormeel occur with enough frequency to have their own society, calling them a unique existance within the Slaadi is like assigning the same outlier quality to whatever the least common batch of human is.

>>30542772
Except that Planescape never once said that. You're full of shit, dude. Go lie down or somethin'.

>>30542756
So you agree that on good-aligned plane things are made out of literal goodness?

>>30542780
Fallen Angels are far more regular than Redeemed Demons. Gormeel are far more regular than Rogue Modrons.

Frequency does not negate what something is.

>>30542732
Presumably you've already played the Witcher, perhaps Kingdoms of Amalur?

>>30542797
I never said they weren't. I argued that 'goodness' is an abstact concept, and not an elemental or energy-based substance. Elementals are formed from elements/energy-based substances, and therefore the argument that a celestial is a 'elemental made from good' is an incorrect statement. It's basically the equivalent of me calling a serial killer an 'elemental made out of murder'.

>>30542756
So Good is in fact a physical facet of the universe that I can hold in my hand?

>>30542788
I have the books right here so I think your understanding of D&D cosmology is the flawed one.

>>30542722
10/10 would pretend it was the truth

>>30542770
I don't give a fuck about Planescapes standards that's retarded by any definition of Cleric.

>>30540474
it's not that the balor can't make moral choices, it's that the balor is made out of evil, and hence any moral choices the balor makes will be the evil ones.

the balor *can*, theoretically, choose to do good things, but a balor *would not* choose to do good things. it isn't in their nature to ever want to do good things, unless doing good things is somehow in service of evil.

>>30542821
I have the books too, dumbass. And the maps. In fact, here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/28496842/Planescape-Inner-Planes I even dug up a PDF of the Inner Planes guide for Planescape. And what's this? Nowhere does it say that the Outer Planes of Good are aligned with the Positive Energy Plane. Nor does it say that the Positive Energy Plane is good-aligned. Huh! Guess you're full of shit, son!

>>30542816
Pray tell what they then are, in your opinion?

>>30542835
eberron does it to

>>30542820
Only on the Outer Planes. And only if you believe it enough. That's kind of the point of the Outer Planes - because it's ideas and beliefs made physical, whether or not something becomes physical depends on whether enough people believe it is, and believe it hard enough.

>>30542799
But frequency does influence how much it matters.

>>30542835
It says right there in the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook that you can play a cleric dedicated to an ideal instead of god.

Also, what about Buddhism?

>>30542842
I still consider the positive energy plane to be good-aligned though, it just makes sense.

>>30542836
you know how the ends don't justify the means? can that work in reverse? Can Frank do good specifically designed to create a larger amount of evil later?

>>30542816
In fact you did >>30542413 You argued against them being made of 'raw good and evil'

Despite these being substances we could make a totally kick ass pot out of if we had the transport.

>>30542843
I've been repeating it for the past fucking hour or so, probably to you as well as the other people acting on presumption. They are ideas made physically manifest. GOOD is an idea, so yes, a celestial is technically 'made of good'. But it's an IDEA. And because it's an idea, unlike an elemental, it has the capacity for change. Ideas can evolve, and so can thus being crafted from those ideas.

An idea can become influenced and corrupted by other ideas, and thus so too can a Celestial, created from 'Good', be tinged and influenced by Neutrality and by Evil.

This does not apply with an elemental. If you try to introduce fire and water, the two will never be able to influence and affect one another. Shit will just explode. A Celestial and a Fiend are different. It doesn't happen often, but each can be affected by the other into 'altering' the idea that they were created from. Good can become Evil. Evil can become Good. Fire can never become Water. Water can never become Fire. And that's why they're not elementals.

>>30542851
So it's only a physical facet of the universe I can hold it my hands if I actively go and get it? Like a moon rock.

>>30542881
Not that guy, but mabye you should actually read what your replying to.

>>30542851
So you're ok with the idea of angels and demons made out of physical good and evil, since they come from the outer planes?

>>30542881
Maybe you shoulda read what the fuck I said. I argued against them being 'energies'. An abstract concept, on the Outer Planes, CAN have physical form. However, it is not made of energies or elements the way that an elemental is.

By the way, you CAN actually craft a kick ass pot out of materials found in the Outer Planes. In fact, Planescape talks a lot about stuff like Baatorian black marble, that has golden cracks in it. Or wood from Arborea. Or water from the river Oceanus. These are all still just dreamstuff made physical and manifest. Just because you dreamt up 'water' doesn't stop it from being 'dream water'. It acts and functions the same way that water does, but it's not the same as 'real water' that you get from the Elemental Plane of Water.

>>30542870
What about Buddhism? They don't have clerics they have monks.

>>30542848
If Eberron ain't the story of a group of guys making retarded shit magnificent I don't know what is.

>>30542879
Theoretically, but since he's chaotic it's unlikely he'll follow through long enough.

>>30542909
Just so long as we aren't calling them elementals, yes. They're made of ideas. Because good and evil are ideas. It's the difference between looking at an actual table made from a normal tree in the Prime Material, cut down by a normal farmer and a normal carpenter building it into a table, and saying 'this table is made of pure evil'. It's not. It's made of fucking wood.

>>30542942
>what is the Dali Lama

>>30542899
>>30542941
Here's the post you were replying to; >>30542398
>Angels and demons are made from raw, pure good or evil.

That is what you were arguing against, and what you have failed to defend against.

Some of you turdchutes actually let the shitty alignment system to bind you in it's shittiness?

>>30542895
I've only argued for angels and demons being physical manifestations of good and evil, not whether they can change or not. I'm not interested in whether this good and evil is called energy or not, since it's completely irrelevant. A demon is made out of evil and therefore it is evil even if it changes and starts doing good deeds. Killing Frank is the right thing to do no matter what.

File: 1393594183270.jpg-(475 KB, 1429x1859, traitors.jpg)

475 KB JPG

It is possible.

Demons get bored with the senseless destruction and try new senseless things all the time.
In all likelyhood, he'll go back to destruction after a few centuries though.

>>30542984
No, that was a subsequent argument made to back up the retarded 'angels are elementals' statement. From the getgo I've been arguing against 'angels are elementals'. Not my problem if some other assfuck decides to use something that is technically correct to insist that something that is completely wrong is true.

>>30542973
He's certaintly not a preach of any god.

>>30543003
what's wrong with alignment?

>>30542895
>If you try to introduce fire and water, the two will never be able to influence and affect one another. Shit will just explode.

Shows how much you know. Fire and water aren't mutually incompatible, they're just different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGg0ATfoBgo#t=1m15s

>>30543014
Except that the moment that Frank turns Good, he stops being made out of Evil, and becomes made out of Good.

That is why it's important to understand why Angels and Demons aren't Elementals. An Elemental cannot change from what it is to something else. Fire is Fire. Water is Water. They can never turn into one another. But because Angels are made of Good, and Demons of Evil, and because Good and Evil are ideas that can change from one to the other, an Angel can become Evil and a Demon can become Good.

And when that happens, their very essence is changed in the process. And killing Frank would thus be an evil act. If you disagree with this, then every time you kill a Fallen Angel, you are committing an evil act according to your action, because you've killed a 'Good' creature.

>>30543003
You misunderstand me, I hate the D&D alignment system. That's why I am arguing ad absurdum to mock it.

>>30543019
So this is what you were replying to?

>>30542339
>Angels and demons aren't real people like humans, they're more like good/evil elementals.

In which case you're still wrong becasue they ARE like good and evil elementals in that they are made of the stuff their plane is composed of?

>>30543051
But he's not turning Good, he's turning Neutral. Who knows why Evil demons turn Neutral?

>>30543003
There's not one problem actually caused by alignment. Just a lot of problems caused by idiots handling it.

>>30543035
I was referring to the actual interaction. Fire and Water Elementals don't exactly get along, what with a completely violent war erupting between the two whenever they run into each other.

>>30543073
But where else do we get baby steam elementals from?!

>>30543019
Notice that in the original post I wrote "like elementals", not "literal elementals". You've been getting angry and railing against something you read only in your mind.

>>30543056
Except they're not made of the stuff that their plane is composed of. Their plane is composed of rocks and water and air. The rocks and water and air is 'lawful evil' made physical, yes, but a Devil is not made of those things, themselves.

So no, they aren't good and evil elementals. And that's what I've been arguing this entire time.

>>30543066
Then he isn't made of Evil, either. he's made of Neutral.

>>30543093
From the Para-Elemental plane of Steam, which is between Positive Energy and Water.

>>30543095
And you haven't bothered to clarify this point, and instead more than likely kept stoking the fires. Which makes you better how, exactly?

>>30543051
If Frank would be good he then wouldn't be a balor.
Since he's still a balor he is evil.
QED.

>>30543114
He'd be a Redeemed Balor. If you fail to understand this basic concept, then the argument is moot. Enjoy your evil points.

>>30543102
>Each Outer Plane is usually the physical manifestation of a particular moral and ethical alignment
>The tanar'ri are essentially "classic" demons; reflections of cruelty, evil and sin.

Emphasis, Physical Manifestation, helped along by the fact that no one said they were exactly the same just close enough.

>>30543113
Onus is generally on the butt-hurtee, not the butt-hurter.

Not that guy btw.

>>30543102
Oh, what they're made of then if not the stuff that their plane is made out of? Didn't you argue that they're made of solid ideas just a moment ago?

>>30543127
What are you even talking about, OP already said Frank is Evil and in fact actively so.

>>30543145
At this point you're just being contrary for the sake of it. So I'm not even gonna bother acting like that is worth treating like a serious inquiry.

File: 1393595207125.jpg-(163 KB, 600x977, image.jpg)

163 KB JPG

>>30541660
>>pit fiend
This is a much better idea due to a few things.

First of, balors have an aura of fire. Bad for farmin. Second: pit fiends have access to the wish spell once a year. Third: I could see a powerful hedge wizard using planar binding with a poorly written contract which prevents Frank from leaving.

I was going to suggest a name change, but I changed my mind. This reminds me of the discworld book "reaper man." Death decides to quit his job and become a farmer.Maybe have people not notice that he's a pit fiend?

>>30543113
The simile was quite clear to everyone else in the thread, so the failure to understand resides at your end?

>>30543155
Wasn't even talking about OP's scenario. Dumbass said if Frank was good, then he wouldn't be a balor. Which is false. I corrected him.

>>30543163
>The simile was quite clear to everyone else in the thread

Keep on shilling there, man. Whatever helps you cover your ass.

>>30543127
He would transsubstantiate into an angelic form since balors cannot be good (their bodies are made of solidified evil).

>>30543179
What ass has he to cover? The ability to read before speaking?

>>30540912
Iirc his design is based on David Bowie

>>30543179
Then again I'm not the one descending into juvenile name-calling when people point out flaw in my argument. At least you should have the courtesy to admit that my point is internally consistent?

>no one realizing GM fiat is perfectly acceptable in all these cases

You're all retarded for making GM decisions.

File: 1393596024304.jpg-(276 KB, 1014x718, CP113.jpg)

276 KB JPG

>>30543162
A pit fiend without ambition is probably rarer than a balor without a fire aura.

>>30543282
I'd rather have the GM follow the game rules too, thank you very much. What's the point of having players there throwing dice otherwise, he could just fiat whatever he wants and regale us with his lame fantasy novel

>>30541363

Don;t, uh, don't gotget that you had better be at least 16th level or so. pacifist Balor can still cause your entire party to Implode once per day.

>>30543296
>I'm going to grow the best carrots in the material plane!

File: 1393596304209.jpg-(42 KB, 600x695, fall_from_grace_by_denis4(...).jpg)

42 KB JPG

>>30541591

Who is Fall From Grace?

>>30543309
DM fiat is appropriate where it would otherwise enhance the player's enjoyment or emotions of the scenario in hand. The point of the players are there to have an enjoyable or otherwise suitably beneficial experience.

>>30543332
Now that right there is just begging for a pit fiend to start destroying all other farms so his is the best carrots - nay, the only carrots!

>>30543309
Actually, the point here is that every single planar guide since ever allows GM's to determine how the alignment/planar relationship works. It's asking the GM to determine the ruling for his universe, not strictly GM fiat.

>>30541979

25,000 gp for bracers of armor +1 with soulfire. That makes you immune to level drain and negative energy. Proceed with lawful hot dickings.

File: 1393596761034.jpg-(420 KB, 1280x911, laughing_demons_by_menasl(...).jpg)

420 KB JPG

> all these mad Paladins

ha , i bet you can't even grown carrots. Enjoy your 'good' turnips hahahaha

>>30542129

Actually, the evil subtype is very specific.

"Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is."

So he detects as evil regardless of his actual alignment, and he is effected by Holy Smith the same.

>>30541980
Because, anon, there's an idea
And then there is an execution of said idea.

For example, someone like, say, Sherlock Holmes is a textbook definition of sue. Now does he really look that way?

I do really love the idea of a devil who is nothing but helpful and goes around doing good deeds. He's evil but his actions are all good with the purpose of making some good aligned cleric or paladin kill him, for no other reason than his birth. By doing so they cause more suffering as he would have stopped more evils if he had lived.

Thus every peasant that the devil would have saved is blood on their hands. His ultimate goal of course would be to make the cleric lose their faith yada yada yada...

>>30543663
Ha ha, mostly only particular hardline clerics or paladins would do that, and they won't think particularly hard about it.

Well since the Balor has this fire aura thing going on why dont we just have it open a small portal to the plane of water above it so that the humidity is always high? Could be a tropical garden.

>>30540055
He is still a literal entity of evil, you cant change that, yet, that doesn't mean he cant do good things, say he is doing this to make the country dependent on him, farming more and more land, buying out other farms, then after a few 100 years, when he knows that if his massive farming land stops producing food, there will be mass starvation and riots and disorder. Then, when the time is right, he overprices EVERYTHING, or burns it all to the ground.

You see, frank here is playing in the long run, sure his methods may be different than other balors, but to frank, are no less devious or evil...

you all think it's good deeds now, but secretly, the balor is still evil.

he grows sweet potatoes but calls them yams.

>>30544262
You mean sweet potatoes AREN'T yams? I've been doing evil all my life!

>>30541565
>then Frank is either being (very subtly) Evil on purpose
I like this one. So once in a while, Frank adopts orphans, uses virgin blood and mans tears to fertilize the crops, takes in beggers for short periods.
What evil could he cause in the long term? Well, a lot, if well done.
His goal might even be something like farming until the industrial revolution, and then become some megafarmlord to do something. But for the 30 generations before that, he was just a farmer.
His goal might be to breed a special herb after selective breeding.
He might know that a chosen one might be born, and is manipulating the events to avoid it, or to make it happen earlier.

>>30541651
>Here's a question, how has Frank the Balor gone unnoticed for so long? Shouldn't the reigning noble have sent someone to deal with this?
That depends. A balor is a quite powerful being, and the noble might not have the connections or wealth to get somebody to deal with him. So he either has to do a prod(send somebody who can report to a higher authority), or hire a adventure party who is just in level range to maybe kill him.
So the dealers get to Frank, and Frank is nice. The authority representative might stay for a while, but then leave since he is not doing anything.
The adventure party might falter over the subtle. Mage is bribed. Cleric/Paladin gets to doubt if slaying the Balor is worth it.
That leaves us with the Druid, martial classes, and some hybrids. Are they still in level range to fight the Balor? If no, they have to leave.
So what problem does the Noble have? Well, not enough cash to bribe off a party thats strong enough for the Balor, but at the same time its not doing anything.

>>30543949
He could start seeding a desert by doing that as well.

>>30544212
This. But it depends on how high you take it.

>>30544212
There are canon examples of devils and demons converting to good and vice versa despite being made of evil and good.

It's just rare as fuck because, you know, literally made of evil or good.

When it happens though it tends to be a very big victory for good (You literally just changed evil to good, not just counteracted it) or evil (Literally stole a hunk of good from the universe for yourself).

He would have his alignment subtype still, but he could eventually have an alignment change. It's weird, even by in universe standards of an absolutist alignment system.

he'd probably be redeemed, check out the book of exalted deeds.

So frank is still chaotic in the sense he's throwing the basic laws of good and evil out of wack by being a peaceful farmer. But good because he just wants to farm carrots.


Fuck I can see a Baylor in covwralls and a straw hat leaning on a pitchfork in a field.

With a hellhound sitting on the ground beside him.

>>30544944
>>30544623
The church doesn't want you to know but st Frank the patron saint of carrots and carrot farmers is actually a Balor and lives on a farm.

>>30544572
i wouldnt see him as being good, more neutral
he isnt proactively doing good, just abstaining from doing evil
farming carrots is a neutral act

>>30541591

Huh, no wait, I think the farming thing makes MORE sense from a Tanar'ri perspective.

Think about it, most folks think of chaotic evil as being "LOL I'm teh Joker I murder yur orphans w/ monkeys lol so random."

So wouldn't the REALLY chaotic thing to do be to just settle down and farm? Like "Fuck you guys, telling me how to evil. This is how I evil. YOU'RE NOT MY DAD!"

Alternatively, maybe he THINKS farming is evil, but he just kind of sucks at being evil.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"

File: 1393625524215.jpg-(25 KB, 320x311, Nice Hat.jpg)

25 KB JPG

>>30549462
>implying things are better than other things
>implying things are other than other things
>implying The Thing is plural

This is fucking gold.

Big evil looking thing of ultimate rape and death and fire and hate.

He lives on a farm just outside the village. Still has his pet hellhound called Slaughterer, scourge of the damned. Slaughterer gives horsey rides to small children because he just wants to be friends. Sometimes people throw stick for him to find. Thats his most favorite game in the whole universe.

Frank the Balor has always been there. No one can remember a time when he hasn't been there. There aren't even any written records of him not being there. He used to be a black smith once, if you look back far enough. Was quite a good one too. He quit because the noise of the hammer and anvil was getting annoying. Trained up an apprentice and used all the money he had saved up to buy Happy-Sun Farm from old widow Todsley.

Has a straw hat.

Goes to the local pub.

Attends church every week.

Favorite food is raw carrots. Sometimes turnips if he gets bored of carrots.

Grows really big carrots.

Valued member of the community. Can remember everyone's grandfathers and great-grandfathers.

Been there so long no one even notices that he is big, red and smells of brimstone. IF a newcomer was to tell them there was a Balor roaming the fields the first thing they would do is as Frank if he had seen it.

>>30546784
>doing his bit to defend the realm against starvation
>not a good act

You can choose one and only one.

>>30540055
By working the earth, using up the resources, he is slowly bringing about entropy.
Being an immortal lets him do this safely and for a really long time.

File: 1393627387642.png-(379 KB, 636x740, Totenkinder.png)

379 KB PNG

Maybe you could look at Frau Totenkinde from the Fables comic series.

Use to be *the* (sorta) evil Witch that cursed people and welded incredible power through the shedding of new born blood on the full moon.

But now shes just (sorta) spends her time knitting and giving out little spells and advice when asked by the community. Never *really* part of the community, but has her own secret plan upon plan which she never tells anyone.

>>30549237
He thinks carrots are sentient beings. The most defenseless, innocent creatures he could find, and he culls them by the thousands, generation after generation.

>>30542878
And you'll keep being wrong.

>>30549634
Panentheism doesn't belong in DnD.

>>30540474
>>30540055
>Evil fruits and vegetables
>Not a need for this day and age evil overlord.
For fucks sake, I bet you still don't give your minions a balanced diet so they have strong well running bodies and bones so you can rise them perfectly.

>>30544420
Since OP said Frank is, in fact, evil, what if his goal is to make evil acceptable? Desensitize people to the small stuff, get it to grow bigger with each generation as people keep considering him not that bad a guy? The neighbor farm writings would be an easy way to show this-first generation learns to accept the new neighbor, second generation gets friendlier with him, even coming to his defense, third generation sacrificing sheep after getting drunk.

>>30541979
>>Godless Cleric
>Ya got me on that one.

Clerics can worship ideals. Deicide (or just general deific non-interference) is an ideal.

>>30542136
>The last "real" RPG I played was Dragon Age, and that shit had me wishing for a "slap them upside the head" button. Goddamn, the characters in that game would just not shut the fuck up.

Actually, uh, there IS a slap morrigan mod. It adds a 'shut up!' button prompt to every interaction with her that let syou quit out

>>30542281
>>30543394

Or a whatever of Death Ward. Always-on is 112,000, Command Word with 5/day use is 50,400. If you want to really skimp, then 1/day is just over 10k.

>>30550485
>He thinks carrots are sentient beings. The most defenseless, innocent creatures he could find, and he culls them by the thousands, generation after generation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov5Jgw_Nwx4

This link is INCREDIBLY relevant.

balor farmer laughing sadistically as he locks up all the veggies in their murder-jail