help me flesh out a setting, /tg/.there is the Train. the Train is maybe twenty meters wide, and infinitely long, with infinitely many carriages. clockwork Stewardesses serve neverending refreshments from pantries that somehow never run out, mend breaks, tend to the sick, and dispose of trash (including corpses). You were born on the Train, and so is everyone you know.outside the Train, it is forever night, and the illuminating lamps of the Train cannot pierce the darkness. over the ages, many madmen have jumped off - perhaps they survived in the land beyond. most likely not.from time to time one is struck with wanderlust. they make their way Forward, or Back, and most are never heard from again. Even rarer, one returns, and they bring fantastic tales of Carriages made of living flesh, or a community of Passengers made of gleaming, liquid steel, or spider-shaped Stewardesses serving honeydew tea and biscuits topped with silkworm eggs.
so... this is a game where the players sit around served by robot meido, and basically it's all tea parties all the time?
>>29890577yes/10 would play
So, a quest to get to the train driver, eh?Well, you would need some myths about the train driver.
>>29890658the leading theory by well-respected scientists is that, as the train is infinitely long in the true sense of infinite, no matter how far you go Forward, you will never reach the head carriage - there simply isn't one.
Is this just the setup for a joke about 'railroading' , OP?
>>29890577I want to be the little girl that only eats cake
>>29890698all aboard train driver religions
>20 metres wide>most of this space is probably seating/living spaceI'd guess mass movements would basically never happen, as that would seriously piss off the people sitting in their carriages. solo travellers/small parties might be okay, depending on the local culture. probably would need to pay a toll in some places. which means that trade is minimal and is limited to things like books.objects that allevate boredom would be of great value. a chess set is worth a king's ransom.
How do they know to call it a train?Is that just their word for "world"?Or were there generations long ago that passed on the term before finding it?
This is a neat idea. Good work OP.
>>29890719Yes, absolutely.
>>29890786bothit is a mysteryghost.jpg
>>29890773Like, how do people exercise and shit? Where do people get clothes or tools or supplies from? How many Passengers to a carriage? Does privacy exist?
>>29890773That brings up an interesting point: Do the stewardesses provide raw materials? Can invention thrive in a place like this?
>>29890877And another question : could sanity and intelligence even survive over multiple generations in a completely static super-simple confined space with no dangers? I can't imagine that anything we would describe as 'civilization' could possibly last more than a generation or two in such an environment, and even human intelligence would disappear in a matter of centuries.
>>29890877I'd say the stewardesses will bring you basic necessities and luxury items if you ask them - clothes, food, first-aid supplies, toiletries. they have basically infinite supplies of those things and in incredible variety. if you ask them for complicated stuff that you wouldn't normally expect to find on a luxury train's onboard shop, such as e.g. a mechanic's toolkit, they'd just apologize and say they don't have any.you could, however, ask for a shitton of clothes, cut them up, and make other things with them. or make an improvised bomb from a toiletry kit with some chemistry knowledge.
>>29890951The Ringworld is unstable! The Ringworld is unstable!
>>29890951>no dangerswell, you and all the other passengers that are well-fed and completely bored out of their minds. I imagine there would be quite a lot of violence.perhaps the Stewardesses ignore any conflicts between passengers, and simply tend to the wounded, patch things up, and dispose of the bodies when the fighting is over.
>>29890839>Like, how do people exercise and shit?there are onboard gyms with treadmills and weights a few dozen carriages away.> Does privacy exist?depends on local culture. you *could* cut up some clothes and make a tent around your seat, technically.
>>29891083I'd still say that the environment is too limited and simple for humans to develop. You're going to get babies as retarded as if they never left the crib, and within a few generations you'd have bored, hairless monkeys flinging shit and hooting.
>>29891036I think the real question is whether they would provide books. I don't think it's too far-fetched for a luxury train to have some form of reading material, so maybe that's how they could keep knowledge and invention going?
>>29890362people explored the globe in ancient times (irl), so in your setting people would probably have made it thousands of miles down the train (not to mention alternate culture and modes of transportation that might develop as a result of history occurring excusively on a train)also you said everyone you know was born on the train, what about all the people they've ever known, where they also born on the train? has anyone ever heard of someone being born "in the old days..." or anything like that?if all of history has occurred on the train, then I think they could have a branch of technology dedicated to machines that allow safe exit of the train... is it really more dangerous than spaceflight? consider that.I'll be lurking if you found any of that useful or have any more question, happy to help
>>29891195 herealso... who the fuck is in charge of this thing?
>>29891180So we need to make it more complex, then. More space and a need to actually acquire resources and food, too. So maybe the nice carriages are a legend and you live in the shitty part of the train, living off what you can pillage or scavenge?
>>29891185they have a library of maybe 10,000 books, but they have infinite copies of each. by quite a young age the average person will have read and memorized every single one.
So with the stewardesses being the source of all food/materials, are they an extension of the train itself, or can a player become a stewardess? If so, what's the protocol on that? Just grab shit out of the pantries and serve others to fight off the boredom, or is there an initiation ceremony? Are the pantries accessable to everyone aboard, or only them? Why do they decide to become stewardesses? Access to the best food/goods, the best entertainment supplies, good medical supplies, the fact that even if things get violent, no moron is going to hurt the person bringing them everything they need to survive?Just tossing out random ideas.
>>29891195perhaps the enterprising have built makeshift 'roads' on the ceiling of their carriages.the natural progression...railway/mini-train on top of a moving train.
Are there different cars? Perhaps some that are not "passenger" cars but are more box car style. Or can people modify the cars that they live in? Could someone rip the seats out to make more space etc?Is there a culture that lives on top of the train? (I'm pulling from polar express on this one lol) Maybe some of those crazies that left the train, but then couldn't get back inside? So they hitched a ride and have a society of undetermined size that lives on top of the train.How fast does the train move? Does the train speed change according to seasons or a cycle of some sort? Perhaps a lunar cycle since your world is constantly night time.
>>29891275Oops. Missed the 'clockwork' part in the OP.
>>29891275The Stewardesses are clockwork.They still have an initiation ceremony, though. Nobody knows exactly what happens, but two Stewardesses take the 'volunteer' into the bathroom, lock the door behind them, and then six hours later, after a terrible noise, three Stewardesses walk out.
>>29891294it is trains all the way down
>>29891309That guy was the ghost of a hobo though.
>>29890773Just make it a double-floor train. Or like a jumbo-jet sized train. You can live comfortable in a plane you know. They're big.
>>29891352That's terrifying.
Can the train be damaged? What happens if you try?
>>29890860My first waifu.Oh man. I watched that shit everyday on vacation. And it was in French. (I can't understand French).
>>29891367trainceptionhere's an illustration too:train-train-train-train-train-train-traintrain-train-train-train-train-train-train
>>29891425How long are the train cars? 20 metres by ... what? 60 meters? 100 meters?
A library of books was mentioned; could someone request a notebook and pencil and write their own book to be added to the library? If so, someone could make a journal documenting all the different carriages they've been to. Make the last page some insanely high number, and the book title something like 4/33.Or just have them find a duffel bag full of abandoned, tattered, and somewhat bloodstained notebooks
>>29891367>>29891462>world made of trainsQuit making me remember bad salvia trips, you fucking assholes.
>>29891352>>29891439I think it would be even more terrifying if only two stewardesses walked into the bathroom... and somehow three walk out
But is the train really that safe? We all have heard tales of the shadow-bringers, the void beasts, the hunter of the nocturne. He moves from carriage to carriage, leaving no living soul in his wake; except for those damned Stewardesses cleaning up the mess he left behind. They say before he strikes he turns off the carriages lights, seals the doors too; and he's moving. The unwavering shade recently hit car f1256798, before that f1256797. He's getting closer, and when he reaches us, conductor forbid.
>>29891484Forget an initiation ritual.>they just show up>some traveller and a guy living in a train car get into a little fight>everyone watches the fight>traveller bashes the native aside and continues on>suddenly everyone in the cart notices that a new stewardess is standing in a dark corner that was empty before the fight started
I like the idea of Stewardesses randomly appearing as if in a horror movie. They always show up whenever you break one of the rules of the train. They always shake their head, slowly, making mechanical noises.
A Superliner long-haul railcar is 3.10 m wide and 25.9 m long.Scaling up to 20 m wide cars, that gives us a length of 167 m. Possibly double-decker.
>>29891575Also, repeat offenders get taken into the aforementioned Initiation bathroom.
>>29891471that's plot stuff, he asked for help developing the setting
>>29891195>if all of history has occurred on the train, then I think they could have a branch of technology dedicated to machines that allow safe exit of the train... is it really more dangerous than spaceflight? consider that.it *is* possible to exit the train. however, beyond the train there are only badlands. it is cold. there is no water, no plants and no wildlife. the dirt is made of a coarse black sand that cannot grow crops. basically it is impossible to survive away from the train.>Are there different cars? Perhaps some that are not "passenger" cars but are more box car style. absolutely. there are completely different cars with various levels of technology if you travel great distances. there are even some non-euclidean cars that are much wider and larger than physically possible. wars are fought over those.>Or can people modify the cars that they live in? Could someone rip the seats out to make more space etc?the Stewardesses, by default, will fix any damage you inflict on the cars, but they'll leave it alone if you insist.>can a player become a stewardess? I envision the stewardesses as steampunk robots. perhaps there is a way to become one - it would be interesting.>Are the pantries accessable to everyone aboard?the pantries are empty when a passenger opens them. they only contain useful things when a stewardess opens them.>getting violent with a stewardessthe stewardesses are tough and built to last, but they do not resist if attacked by a passenger. in fact, in some carriages this is an accepted way of harvesting metal. at a certain time each day (customarily 'midnight'), new stewardesses appear to replace slain ones. they may or may not be the same stewardesses - no one can tell because they all sound/look the same.
>>29891590why is this train six times wider than a normal train?
>>29891590Again scaling up linearly from the Superliner, that gives us a car height of 32 m. That's almost certainly double decker or more.
>>29891452>Can the train be damaged? What happens if you try?you can rip out floorboards, etc. the stewardesses replace them. there is some kind of black skeletal structure underneath that holds the train together, and that's completely impervious to all damage.meta: obviously you can't allow the players to cut the Train in half...
>>29891650Because OP says it is.And building a society that lives on a line three metres wide would be difficult and less interesting.
>>29891695Plot hook: somehow, someone derails the Train.
>>29891650if you were spending your entire life inside a carriage, you'd think it's too cramped, not too large.
>>29891606Say something from outside smashes through the window.Will the stewardesses take hostile action against them?Also, perhaps there are ranks among them?I can imagine that if a cart population causes too much trouble, the stewardesses just lock off the cart, blocking off air as well as sound, and switch to genocide mode.Of course, no one ever knows about that because no one survives it.Occasionally, you just come across empty carts filled with loot to pick up, with stewardesses calmly repairing damage, or cleaning up.
>>29891606 >if all of history has occurred on the train guys here..you said:outside the Train, it is forever night... ...over the ages, many madmen have jumped off - perhaps they survived in the land beyond. most likely not.what I was getting at was:if ages have passed (or an entire history even), why have the only attempts to make it off of the train been madmen jumping? I was thinking of something like a reinforced harness system, or a cable-vehicle... or if the train is endless they could jump back on when they need supplies. the obvious danger there is uncertainty, maybe they'll re-board into a car filled with spider-people
>>29891748>something from outsideSurely you jest, passenger! There is nothing outside! Absolutely nothing!
>>29891748>Say something from outside smashes through the window. Will the stewardesses take hostile action against them?I imagine they would switch to killer-robots defend-actual-passengers-at-all-costs mode. outsiders get no mercy because they're not customers.in fact, that may be why nobody wants off the train - once you get off, the Stewardesses kill you if you try to get back on.
>>29891771Sounds like a much easier way to travel if the train is going slow enough, but if it's a tuck-and-roll situation, the train might be going to fast to hop back on.And anyone who jumped off would only get back on after a few thousand cars had gone by if they did any exploring.
>>29891672Five meters per two levels seems to be a roughly correct ratio for train cars.So that means the Cars could have up to 12 levels. Or less, but with really high ceilings.
>>29891813you can only pull this off if the passengers at wherever you're getting onboard are cooperating, and it's hard to do since you can't control exactly which carriage you're getting on. for all you know they're cannibals.
>>29891832I'd go with triple-decker with high ceilings. also, there's no reason why it has to be as tall as it is wide.
>>29891798So, what happens to people who get off the train and want back on? Would they hitch a ride underneath it?Why would they attack you, unless the outside world has some secret to reveal about the train? Or simply because the passenger is unauthorized to board the train?Would they let you back on if you had a ticket? Where would you find a ticket at?
>>29891881>>29891813>>29891789things like this are why I think 'Outside The Train Science' would be an important feature of these people's culture
>>29891951>Outside The Train ScienceSilly passenger! There is nothing to know about anything outside because there is nothing outside! Absolutely!Nothing!
>>29891937meta: requiring every living being onboard the train to have a ticket quickly leads to nobody having a ticket, so no...the Stewardesses only attack if they see someone climbing onboard a train. if you manage to sneak onboard without them seeing you, they'll just assume you're a passenger.to the stewardesses, the passengers are priority number one, and anyone trying to climb onboard are a threat to the passengers.perhaps their attack can be called off if somebody onboard vouches for them.
So the Train is infinite and also has an infinite variety of more-alien passengers, right?And they would also have different consumables that the Stewardesses would serve them, right?What if it IS possible to get the Stewardesses to bring you arbitrary goods- but only if you ask for them by the right name?So you can't ask a Stewardess for bricks - but if you can squeeze up your throat just right into an approximation of an alien vocal system and ask for a !GT'd~ , which is a silicate cuboid which is eaten by a race of clay-based beings, who consider it to have a delicate and sophisticated flavor (but which is, to human eyes, a brick), they'll happily give you one. After all, the Pantry includes it.So 'magic' is the trick of knowing the alien words which will make a Stewardess deliver special items and raw materials.
>>29892015I thought of having the ticket more along the lines of freely being able to get on without being attacked, if you're already on the train and you were born there, then you wouldn't need a ticket of course.
THE TRAIN MOVES
>>29891748I much prefer the Stewardesses as utterly passive. No agenda here, nothing they need to repress... No hope of some higher purpose beyond those yawning tracks. This isn't a weekend in hell or something that should be looked into. This is just the world. This is the Train.On that note, assuming pacifistic Stewardesses it would seem logical that the easiest way to get materials would be to disable them and scrap their pieces. Of course, given that they take time to reform you'll end up short on food and luxuries for a while. So maybe trade arrangements are made, we'll bash our 'bots and give you some bronze, you give us our daily tea and bread. Maybe some cars collect Stewardesses to make "farms" where they're all constantly fetching goods to be exported. Maybe the most efficient way to take out an enemy car is espionage, disabling their food suppliers one by one. Perhaps bandits travel between the cars, tearing Stewardesses to pieces with swords fashioned out of their own clockwork pieces, ruining sections of train and forcing refugees into an eternal bottleneck towards better armed cities that let none enter. It could be that some even dabble with clockwork, creating simple guardians and pets out of wayward cogs and axles, hoping one day to create a more efficient Stewardess, and maybe this is how they believe they can attain enlightenment; through improving, gilding, and increasing the efficiency of the Train.I dunno. Just blowing smoke, take what you will. This has some potential.>>29892053This is an amazing idea. What if some of the most sought-after spellbooks in the land are just penny takeaway menus from 10,000 cars down?
>>29892054how about this: if you're born on the train, you don't need a ticket. however, the moment you set foot off the train, the stewardesses will Know. you will be attacked on-sight, unless you show your ticket - upon which they will take your ticket, and you will once again be recognized as a passenger.how would one acquire a ticket, though? and given that the entire business is inevitably going to be a hugely difficult undertaking, why? what motive would one have to seek such a thing?
>>29892189Because I looked out the window once - and I swear I saw a fork in the Track.
>>29892189Why do I have this image of an incredibly dangerous hunter-killer clockwork ticketman, who rapidly travels to the cars where people get on, and either punch their tickets, or punch through them.
>>29892246this is definitely going to be said at some point if I run a campaign on this world.
>>29892189>how would one acquire a ticket, though?Maybe there are ruins out in the wastes, where one could find a ticket, perhaps in some of the bigger train cities a ruler might have one in his collection, left over from the first people to ride the train. Maybe a hermit in the undercarriage has one in his possession?what motive would one have to seek such a thing?To be able to visit the outside world, and know what's out there, while still being able to come back and tell people of what you've seen.
>>29892249That is a million times better then the stewardesses being violent. So the stewardesses are completely passive, but if you get on the train without a ticket, the ticket-man will come for you and ask for your ticket. If you don't have one? Well, no one really knows do they?
>>29890698Is it truly infinite, or is it simple long enough that it encircles the planet, and the caboose is inches from the engine?
I guess the ticketman is the Train's version of the grim reaper.
>>29892395>everyone's expires some day
>>29892054Theories differ.If it is really infinite, though, you'd get repeats. There are only a finite number of physically possible ways to arrange a train-cars' worth of matter, after all.
>>29892189ticket booths at train stations?the train never stops at them, and the only reason anyone knows they exist is because sometimes you can look out the window and see something concrete passing by
CBA to read the whole thread. Seems like more of a mystical setting, so maybe people are never born on the train because pregnancy just doesn't work. Maybe you could have the train stop at "stations" where new people get on, but old ones cannot get off. With the supernatural angle you'd have the train be some kind of purgatory where souls who did whatever go to, and nobody remembers their past. Or maybe they do remember their past.A question I have is how bumpy is the train ride? Trains can be quite bumpy sometimes, and trying to pee on a moving train freaking sucks.One creepy thing about trains is when the automated voice comes over the intercom and tells you to watch for suspicious packages as like a neighborhood watch-type deal.Also if the train is some kind of hell, the train company could only be named "Metra"
>>29892463mite b coo.the ticket offices are unstaffed, the ticket window shut and the blinds closed. if you break in, the rooms are empty and have nothing of value. there is, however, always a functioning ticket vending machine. it is indestructible.those machines do not accept mundane coins. instead, they always have a slot exactly the shape of something you have. something you hold dear. perhaps it is your favorite teddy bear. your left eye. the memory of your wife.
>>29890362Reminds me of a Heinlen book where all the characters are descendents of a spaceship crew who have regressed to a quasi medieval civilization. They believed the ship was the entirety of the universe.
The Stewardesses are whisper silent, despite their design (I'm thinking, like, visibly turning gears, a hiss of hydraulics if you're really paying attention) and speak in a even toned neutral voice, referring to sentients designated as passengers as "Sir" or "Madam" or "Little One" for the children. They are non violent, but this does not stop them from barring entry to forbidden areas. >>29891606 mentioned that the pantries are empty when a passenger opens them, but perhaps you are only ever able to open them slightly before a stewardess gently but firmly closes the door politely informing you that "Sir, I am afraid that this area is only for employees of the rail company, and I must insist you return to your seat or stateroom," and once you comply, you hear "Thank you, and enjoy the rest of your trip." but if you turn back to look, she has already gone, off to attend to the needs of another passenger.
someone needs to write a story about a passenger that falls in love with a Stewardess. he commands her to keep him company at all times and talks to her as a real person. perhaps he is delusional, but after a decade or so the stewardess starts to show hints of recognition (or so he thinks).and then the stewardess gets harvested for parts.
>>29892562>exactly the shape of something you have.>the memory of your wife.I'm not too sure about this one.
>>29892395His coming is presaged by the lights in the adjoining carriage going out, then the lights in your carriage. You hear the door to the carriage creak open slowly, and you hear a ticking like a metronome creeping closer, and closer, and closer...
>>29892789a little surrealism is fine too.
>>29892554>train purgatoryI think this guy has the right idea. An explanation for the train's origin and purpose and how it fits into the cosmos is necessary or at the very least will give a direction for fleshing out the world.-Train is purgatory-Setting is post-entropy and the train is the only thing in perpetual motion, created by The Ancients to gather and preserve life-Train is a plane in the multiverse-Train is a world unto itself, with no explanation-It's all a dream-post apocalyptic steampunk world, like that one mobile-steampunk-city novel series (name escapes me)
Can we turn the Ticketman into a very polite gentlemanly robot who goes complete berserker ape-shit Shrike-style when tickets are out-of-date or missing?Your average grim reaper is a calm person who kills bloodless. Snaps your life line.Here we have a robot worker on a train. He should kill like a train. Chunks everywhere. All over the place.
>>29892880He could have a second face on the back of his head, like the mayor in A Night Before Christmas
>>29892880I was actually thinking of the Ticketman as more of a boogeyman than a grim reaper.
>>29892821That's the fun part. Because the stories all say that "The Darkness starts in the next carriage, before someone leaves with the Ticket Master" but what if, like the train itself, the Ticket Master is ever moving? sure, you see a darkness fall in the next car, and you gather your family, and hold them close, perhaps trying to hide a child with the sniffles. The door opens, and the ticking starts, drawing ever nearer. It is deafeningly quiet, with the carpet muffling his footfalls. He passes your family's home, and you swear, just for a second, a glimmer of light from under the conductor's hat, and the words "Not yet" whispered, before he continues onto the next car. Maybe he'll return in ten years, maybe ten days. In this manner, it's almost possible to pass the news along. It might take days, or even weeks, but word trickles backwards along his path each time, and the closer your car is to someone's final destination, the closer to home their death. Neighbor car? you join in the mourning, five back? you send a "Condolences" card and a coupon for a sandwich. Ten or more? it's just like an obituary in the newspaper. You feel kind of sad, but it doesn't affect your day.
>>29892850I think it's better to leave it an enigma.
>>29890362This is important. does it go around bends or stay eternally straight?Does another train ever pass?this sounds like that SCP train.
>>29891439Hopefully no stewardess conscription.Imagine you're relaxing in your comfy chair, on a break from a journey up the train, and suddenly a stewardess comes up to you, but instead of the normal routine, she grabs you and drags you off...
>>29893074If they're replacing numbers from anywhere in the train like that, Somewhere absolutely peaceful could be instantly depopulated to reinforce stewardess numbers..
>>29890362Sweet OP! There's already a theme song for your campaign. "Train kept a-rollin' all night long"
Best thread in /tg/ 2014; would play, run and read the novel. How does one archive this shit?
I might be stating the obvious, but I think this is a great thread and deserves a bump anyway, so here I go.The train has to be a steam train, quite obviously with clockwork stewardresses and things like that this is already steampunkish and stuff, seems like a perfect fit to me.Maybe coal could play some kind of a part then too? Not sure what though? As some kind of a relic, maybe? Thoughts?
Bumping for more train
that is how i pictured stewardesses all along!OP, has somebody ever climbed at the top of the train? What if a faction tries to Conquer a Wagon? maybe keeping a stewardess inside for food, and not letting other robots to get her.Can you ever speak over any kind of topic with that ladies?and also i was thinking much alike >>29892053what if you can demand something awesome, but you just cant because you know not about the existence of this object, much more of its name?the very idea seems amazing to me!captcha: rapecity instructionPD: can stewardesses solve captchas?
>>29892246>Because I looked out the window once - and I swear I saw a fork in the Track.I thought more about this last night. One Idea I had is that there are 2 tracks in this world. And every so often the train DOES take the fork. The fork just alters the trains direction from east west to north south or vice versa. But because the train is infinite (or seemingly so) it will at some point crash into or through the back half of the train. This could then eliminate everything on the back half of the train: people, places, things. But then the stewardesses reconstruct the back half of the train that got crashed into. This could add a class society or a destination you need to go to. It could also be known or not known by the players, because if you were further back on the train, you wouldn't know the engine had taken the fork until it crashed into the train either ahead of you or further back.So allthough there is destruction, it doesn't make the train smaller. Especially if you combine this idea with the ticket booth stuff, "new" people could occupy the spaces created by the crash/rebuild. And effectively begin at this lower class. Word would spread down the train that there are scheduled crashes, and the lower class would ramp up into a frenzy as time went on- fighting to make their way up the train to presumably safer cars.This would also be an easy idea for a BBEG to fuck with. If there was a way to switch the order of cars so that people who thought they were safe were suddenly moved back 400 cars or something. Or that the knowledge of the crash is silenced and then BBEG orders all the undesirables to the back of the train. Or maybe someone controls wether or not the train takes the fork, and it is a power struggle over who is trusted to have that control?Just more ideas.
>>29901171 Or what happens to the back half of the train that loses its engine? Perhaps those people are forced to either stay living in their stationary train until the engine takes the fork a second time and crashes through them killing them all, OR chancing it out in the darkness. Waiting until they can find their way to a ticket booth.
Bump
>>29892130You fool! It's obviously land that moves, and train stands!>We train-centric now
>>29891483No.
>>29891483No.dogscape
>>29903115Where the fuck did my picture go
Just bumping this awesome thread.
>>29905477Been following this thread since last night. It is, indeed, pretty cool.So, are their different cars? Maybe vast "wastelands" without pantries, sparsely inhabited, with wars going on for the lone diner cars?
