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>>28309051
i like it, though i feel "illusion" might not be the best word for "the gods are keeping the world from the way it should be"

also, feel free to throw in a little of this guy. his armies are so loyal that they are willing to go against the natural order of the world to serve him, rather than whatever gods are around, just because they liked him so much. make your players realize that his followers aren't bought or being brainwashed, they all follow out of their own free will

>>28309259
That is EXACTLY what I plan to do when it comes to his followers.

Read up on Gnostics?

>>28309313
What?

>>28309276
also, if you want to really go for the "we don't need gods" angle and are playing 3.X or pathfinder look up ur-priest. it's a prestige class that basically steals magic from the divine and can make outright brutal builds since it does it all in only ten levels

wizard9/ur-priest2/mystictheurge8/wizard1
this build has 9th level arcane and divine spells

>>28309339
Not using either actually, but will still take a look, if only for reasurch. We are actually using FFd6, cuz my players are on a Final Fantasy kick right now...

>>28309329
The Gnostics believed that the material world was a flawed creation of a figure known as the Demiurge, a figure who was not the true god, but someone who created this world as a prison, either through ignorance and ineptitude, or malice.

>>28309051
>dat pic is great

Make it so that he's not verified 'wrong' by the end of it and I'm sold. He may end up defeated by the end (As he's the villain), but the question remains whether or not he's right.

And make his "good" conditional. He's good, BUT he insists that people have to help themselves. So, he'll kill the bandits and save the town, but he will not stop to help the needy, instead insisting that they need to help themselves or they're not worth it. He might also have a bone to pick with religion and piety, which could lead to some of his more villainous acts.

>>28309419
It fits somewhat but he believes ALL the gods are false, or at the very least deceitful about existence.

>>28309443
This is perfect. This is the exact thing that I was going for.

>>28309339
Judging by the character description, ur-priest isn't really a good fit. His villain is against the use of the powers granted by gods in general. It seems like he would see stealing power from gods with as much contempt as he does people who are given power from gods.

Heck, he might despise Ur-priests even more. To not only be too weak to rely on your own power, but also refusing ask for assistance, instead selfishly taking the power that doesn't belong to them? I think he'd despise a person like that.

Here's a big question though: Do smite evil, holy attacks, and other 'Anti-evil' effects work against him? He's working against the divine, and he has done some bad things, but at the same time, he isn't truly evil.

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>>28309051
>>28309443
isn't this basically kreia?

>>28309443
>that they need to help themselves or they're not worth it
building on this, one of his lines/philosophies could be "i will help people with the things normal people CAN'T deal with on their own, if someone WON'T deal with something then that's their problem"

also, feel free to draw inspiration from real world churches. there are priests out there that live lives of luxury on the coin that should be going to beggers (google "bishop of bling", got in trouble because the money he spent on his house was 15 million more than the 40 million that was already approved)

>>28309495
I don't think so. Kreia was much more of a manipulator.

What the anons are proposing seems much more direct.

>>28309468
Well of course they are. All the gods of this world are merely the wardens of the prison. The Pleroma may be the creator, but that doesn't make it worthy of worship. It may not even be sentient. It is merely that which set the true universe in motion.

In much the same way that the Big Bang was originally thought of as a creationist theory and has moved on to requiring no deity.

>>28309478
Yup, just finished looking it up and such poeple would be at the top of his shit list

>>28309486
I would make is semi-situational. When he is not actually doing anything to defy the gods (or atleast the good ones), stuff like that wouldn't work. When he is, only partial damage, enough that it is better that a regular attack but not enough to truly slow him down.

go watch stargate SG1 and draw inspiration from teal'c

"i may die, but i die free"

>>28309495
Never heard of her...

>>28309506
Also good, taking all of this.

>>28309560
Loved that show by the way...

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>>28309443

> Make it so that he's not verified 'wrong' by the end of it and I'm sold. He may end up defeated by the end (As he's the villain), but the question remains whether or not he's right.

This, maybe throw in some indications that the gods aren't as great as they purport to be. Some 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain', 'What does God need with a spaceship?' and image related type moments

Have him cast down undead and demons as much as you show him smiting Paladins and Angels.

Show that he's not just some anti-good god nutter, he's against every form of divine intervention.

>>28309599
That is what I plan to do. He hates and is agianst them all, no matter how powerful or influencal they are, for they're all in on it.

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>>28309637
In fact.

Throw more Demons and Undead at it that Paladins and Angels.

Make them feel for him. Make them Love him.

Make him Dante. He's there to beat up everything that wants to fool around with us Mortals. But he's also not going to sit around and coddle people too ignorant or selfish to help themselves.

>>28309663
Perfect. Just...perfect. I love you anon, I truly do. Non-sexually, of course.

>>28309663
>Lawful Good vs Chrazyee Good.

So like

Whats stopping the PCs from just up and joining him in his crusade?

>>28309743
the PCs and Players oppose his goals. Do the means justify the end?

>>28309563
Incoming Knights of the Old Republic 2 spoilers:
Kreia was secretly a Sith Lord who joins you from the outset of the game pretending to be someone who just knows a lot about the Force. She teaches you nearly everything, but also tries to guide your morality towards what I always thought of as more of a dark gray area.
Primarily she insists that to help others (especially through charitable acts) is to weaken then, and that ultimately by saving the galaxy, the only thing you're really doing is making it dependent on yourself. That if you really want to help someone, the best thing to do is challenge them. And that's ultimately what she does for you.
She also strongly encourages manipulating others to your own ends, and generally approves whenever you do something clever rather than something brave.

>>28309743
The fact that they all personlly owe their gods a great many things. It's written right in all thier backstories.

>>28309763
This.

>>28309743
Because they're faithful religious people, and this guy goes against that ideology.

That said... I don't think there is anything stopping them from joining him. They're perfectly capable of doing so, and I imagine the campaign would simply swap focus to them trying to take down the gods.

>>28309777
Huh. Seems pretty legit. I was planning on having the BBEG a more hands-on kind of guy, but giving him an intellectual side isn't bad either.

>BBEG wants to take down the gods cuz theyre dicks
>Believes that humans are ultimately responsible for themselves and no one else

Well OP, I'm sold. Make him sexy and you- >>28309663

Hot damn. I expect storytime when they get that far.

>>28309808
They have the potential to follow him and I even have some thing planned out for if/when they do, but these are REALLY poius PCs and the players are much the same. In their eyes, he would be commiting SUPER-HERESY!

>>28309868
>party finally beat him, despite Him never even batting a hint of hostility towards them, but he fights them out of respect and honor
>He stands there, bloody, dying. Throughout the Adventure he has been both aiding and hindering the party, his charm and wit grown endearing.
>His last words are

Buck up, Devils never cry.

>>28309962
Stuhp guys, stuhp. The feels...

>>28309841
Kreia is also a cold-hearted bitch who potentially drives the Exile - the main character - further from her teachings by intentionally withholding information and treating them as a pawn.

Manipulation can be useful, but if his followers find out they've been manipulated, there could be a huge backlash against him. If he's open and direct he'll face more direct opposition, but I think it would leave more people on both sides wondering "What if he was actually right?"

Sincerity and honesty can deeply effect people, after all. That's why politicians work so hard to make promises they don't try all that hard to keep. It WORKS.

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>>28310015
>That's why politicians work so hard to make promises they don't try all that hard to keep. It WORKS.
Sorry, could've made this a bit clearer:
The point is that the APPEARANCE of sincerity can swing opinions. It's finding out that they were lies that swings opinions right back.

But if they aren't lies?

>>28310015
I already plan on making him completly honest. Like he will not tell a lie to save his life. And he'll be totally open with what he beleviaes is the truth. Whether or not it is...

>>28310076
*completely
*believes

Shit...

>>28310076
A Good way to make sure he's both antagonistic AND truthful and still good is to have them bring up the Good gods.

His reaction would be something like

>They believe they are the be all and end all of good, that their rules are the ones everyone nice should play by, I disagree, people can be noble, Honorable and just without some Gods rules blasted down from on high.

>>28310116
I plan on doing something like that. Also, in the partial back history I've written, his youngest daughter was 'blessed' with prophecy by one of the good gods in the setting, and was ordered by his high priests to go to one of the temples and help adventures.

She refused, saying she needed to help at home and do her part at the village, and for her troubles, was cursed to see visions of good, kind people die in horrible ways every night for refusing her 'sacred duty'. Finding it too much, she eventually killed herself, and later, when her father tried to get her raised, the same priests refused, saying she abandoned 'her' god and now he abandons her, refusing to even do proper burial rights....

>>28310265
That's pretty hardcore for a good god and his priests. Is the deity in specific riding the edge of 'Lawful Good' and 'Lawful Neutral'?

Also... Any specific order he's targeting the gods? He saving the Good gods (perhaps minus the one who specifically screwed his daughter over) for last? Doing that could add some drama and hard choices on whether to ally with him occasionally. It'd mean they could take down evils they couldn't without him, but at the same time, every victory means his cause gains traction (though less than it'd be if he worked without the assistance of the PCs).

>>28309777
>Kreia was secretly a Sith Lord
No she wasn't. She was neither Sith nor Jedi - her only goal was the destruction of the force. She held both Sith and Jedi in great contempt.

>>28310337
Yes, he is riding the line. Best way to sum it up is "Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Nice".

He definitely plans on taking out the evil gods first, but is not above taking targets of opportunity, first and foremost the one that dicked over his daughter.

>>28310370
Ehh, she sorta was. She was also a Jedi, but she was definitely hiding a lot of herself from you.

>>28310473
http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2058/
On the contrary, she laid herself out for you plain as day, over the course of the game.

You just have to put the dots together.

>>28310424
The trick is, that's damn well exactly what Lawful Good is supposed to mean.

Hmm. I'd suggest making the ambiguity on that specific god's alignment a specific plot point, and have it be an explicit source of controversy in-character.

Perhaps even have there be a big-event partway through the campaign where said God makes the big switch from LG-leaning-LN to LN-leaning-LG.

Even gods can change, whether for the worse or for the better.

>>28310508
Actually, expanding on that idea...

Having such an alignment change be metaphysically made 'official' would cause uproar and schism in that God's church.

The perfect chance to strike while they're weak.

>>28310508
I'd imagine the change would occur as more and more gods are killed/their influence taken away. For a god to properly rule, there has to be law, after all.

>>28310572
It WOULD be perfect, wouldn't it...Strike while he isn't getting the worship he normally receives...

>>28310582
More I imagine it'd be the 'Shit gets real' arc where the villain truly comes into his own.

A god falls from grace, and the villain uses the controversy and uproar as ground to stand on to preach his cause and rally against that god, the first god he's crusaded against that isn't out-and-out Evil.

>>28310473
It's foreshadowed a lot.
She almost says as much when she's talking to Darth Scion in the tutorial.

>>28310642
Would definatly be an 'OH SHIT' moment for the two PCs that worship him...

>>28310688
I was just thinking that one or more of the PCs might worship him, yeah. Hrm. Might actually be a problem.

If you DO go with having the god slip from LG-to-LN, make sure you slam the foreshadowing from the word go. Actually, foreshadowing is subtle, be bloody obvious that the god is teetering on the brink. For something like this to happen, it's FAR from a new issue, and simply the small final step on a long road that finally carries the god off the cliff at the end.

On an OOC level? You do not want accusations of bullshit on your hands. You're already explicitly going against everything the players and PCs stand for, so while it's obvious advice, this needs to be handled carefully.

All this euphoria

>>28310337
It's fine if they're more YHVH type gods, hard-lines and strict rules. Now, a Chaotic-Good God might not do so, but on the other hand they might be fair-weather friends with their followers, arbitrarily not helping or sending aid because they're busy or they're just not feeling like it.

So the people are stuck with a God who demands constant adherence to a codex of divine law, and if you don't he's just going to drop you like a sack of bricks, or the god that might decide that this Tuesday, he's gonna be banging the King's hot wife rather than protecting the faith... because, y'know, the other guys aren't THAT bad, it's not like he's gonna stop bandits from bein' bandits if they WANT to.

OP, I demand story time when this is done.

And someone to archive the story time in case I miss it.

>>28310774
It'd be euphoria if the GM was out-and-out backing the villain as being correct. He isn't: OP/the GM is doing this to challenge the players and PCs.

>>28310787
Given how everything is set up, I'd say the other Good gods shouldn't be NEARLY as flawed. Maybe they make mistakes or bad calls on occasion, but are unmistakably good. It'd set the backdrop and 'standards' that the LG-to-LN god isn't living up to, provide refuge for the players worshiping said alignment-shifting god if they decide to bail ship, and let the other players feel comfortable in their choice, if perhaps not completely without doubt.

>>28310764
Thank you for it. I will take heed.

>>28310774
Actually, I am not at all euphoric, I just want to challenge my players an a mental level.

>>28310847
The other good gods aren't as flawed, but they tend to hand out gifts and blessing sparingly, the LG-to-LN god is the most worshiped because of it. But making them make mistakes or bad call is and other sundried you said is good. Thank goodness I haven't completely finished all the fluff/

>>28310817
You will get your storytime, good sir. I guarantee it.

>>28310973
The important thing, the most important thing for the other good gods, the ones who are genuinely good?

They apologize. They admit to their mistakes. They try to make up for it.

Maybe have that be the true decider. Good is willing to admit when it makes mistakes, and continues striving for perfection.

The LG-to-LN god(dess) falls because they won't admit to doing wrong.

As one more thing I noticed: Make sure you have a good explanation handy for why the good gods don't hand out tons of gifts and blessings.

...Actually, for the irony value in playing with the villain's own values: maybe the good gods are stingy with divine intervention BECAUSE they don't want their worshipers getting too reliant on them.

>>28310774
/v/ pls.

Okay, just to throw it out, as the guy that's been spewing ideas left and right...

I'm totally stealing this. All of this. Genuine, well-written, not-just-a-misunderstanding Good vs. Good conflict is amazing rare, and this premise is great. My mind's running away with it.

Thank you for bringing this to /tg/.

>>28310847
Actually, I think this setting is crying out for a medley of flawed gods.

The LG one is too L. The CG god is too C.

Extrapolating, what other neat flaws might there be?

The N god might just never do anything. Maybe he's even an over-god or very important figure, but he's aloof and rarely, if ever, interacts with the world in general. Perhaps this is the god that's keeping up our not-Marche's supposed illusion, whether anyone knows it or not.

The Evil gods are evil, but maybe they're a bit more 'fair' than the Good gods. Why, otherwise, would people worship them? Or maybe there's just one Evil god at NE, and all he cares about is the advancement of Evil in any form. As long as you somehow follow his very basic edicts, he provides protection and power, consistently and in line with what he is given. This makes this Evil god perhaps desirable to a lot of the world, and having an otherwise good society that worships an Evil god because he's the only one they rely on can be an interesting setting.

Either that, or the Gods should be based less on alignment and more on the God's purviews: If the god is Lawful Good, maybe rather than actually *being* LG he is a god that controls the domains of Law, Good, and maybe something else. The rest of the gods follow suit, and instead of aligned gods we have gods who are essentially fighting over domains and are summarized by what they are rather than what they represent.

>>28311381
I've got an easy explanation for why the evil gods (and to a lesser extent the neutral gods) are worshiped: They're far more free with the blessings and aid.

Could have an interesting 'self-reliance' theme to the entire campaign: The evil gods give plenty of support to their followers, like making them liches and giving them the power to control undead... But at the they remove their followers' freedom with the same blessings: as a lich they rely on negative energy and unholy divine power to survive, and if the god takes away their control over undead then their undead hordes will turn on them.

Have the neutral gods take up the space between good and evil on the scale.

Sorry /tg/, had to take a shower, was smelling kind of rank.

>>28311070
This post is a good post. I like this post. Thanks for your help, seriously.

>>28311267
Glad to bring it to you.

>>28311381
>>28311458
Again, I am SOO glad I wrote bare fluff for this game. Now I can use all these ideas without reconning. Anyway, the 'flawed gods' idea is a good one.

OP, if he gets away with it, killing all the gods I mean, he should ascend.

Become a god himself.

>>28311591
No problem, man. Happy to help. Just having new ideas of my own is thanks enough.

>>28311785
Eh, I don't know about that. Really, if the villain really gets as far as being on the cusp of killing the last god(s) of good? I figure they admit defeat, and the power of the villain's philosophy, and instead of inflicting more needless death sacrifice themselves as they burn every last drop of divine energy to resurrect those who had died in the war.

The gods are dead. But, at least for a short time, there is peace.

>>28311785
NO. He wants the world free of ALL divine influence. Why take people out of shit to throw them back into another shit. He, in his own eyes, would be worse than the ones he sought to destroy.

>>28311814
Then either spend the next story arc dealing with the aftermath or run a sequel campaign a century or so in the future?

>>28311814
>>28311837
I don't mean he ascends by choice.
That a last-ditch effort by the last god before he cuts off all divine influence is to bring him to godhood, against his will

>>28311814
Actually, that reminds me... OP/GM, look at Der Langrisser. The Independent Path sounds EXACTLY like this villain.

>>28311854
Interesting. To what end though? (Honest question, not sarcasm.)

>>28311866
Self-defense, I'd imagine. Does the villian have the resolve to cut the gods off from the world if it means he has to kill himself to do it?

Alternatively, he becomes a god and has to use this power to kill the others due to shenanigans. However, doing so would have him using divine influence to do it. Make him what he hates.

This is, of course, if he is actually right in the end. I kind of find myself cheering for him

>>28311939
The villain is angling to kill all the gods, including the ones genuinely good, who really are trying to help people.

Opposing him are those who serve the gods, including those servants of the gods of good, who are doing what they believe is right.

And the villain is doing what he believes just as well.

Both sides are more than worthy of being rooted for. That's one of the reasons this so interesting to me.

>>28311939
>>28311974
Also, beyond that... I'd like to imagine that by that point, whatever gods left (probably the ones of good) would respect the villain's resolve and ability well enough to know he'd be willing to sacrifice himself for it.

There is no 'right in the end'. Just whichever side is powerful enough to see their ideal and vision overcome the other, and the consequences, for good and for ill.

potential plot point for later in the campaign after several evil gods get killed
when an god of EVIL gets killed, all of that EVIL doesn't just disappear. they act as dumps for it and when they die it gets released into the world, making it an overall more shitty place. this could then be used to recruit people into killing the gods of GOOD, since when they're dead all of that pent up GOOD will make the world better

whether or not the antagonist knows this at the start of the campaign is up to you

>>28312027
Fair enough.
His daughter than? That's dirty.
Still probably wouldn't stop him, but would create some controversy. Hmm.

>>28312060
They're gods of good though, not complete douchenozzles.

Please note I am excluding the LG-to-LN god from that grouping. Only mostly because they're a jerk, but also because also I can't see the villain leaving said LG-to-LN god to kill last.

>>28312119
Not all the gods are gods of good.
That tact would be better for an evil one, you're right.

Potential I-was-only-pretending-to-be-good god? If you don't mind horrible cliches?

>>28312196
Yeah, but the villain is angling to off the gods of evil first, to work his way up to the gods of good (barring, perhaps, a single exception for giving the LG-to-LN god their turn early). So it seems most likely that it'll be a god or gods of good left when endgame hits.

Fake-Good god is possible, but seems implausible, given how divinities work in 3.5 ed. Plus the LG-to-LN god seems to already fill the roll of casting doubt on the gods of good; might be best keep it at that.

Here is an important thing to ask.

What happens if he kills all the gods?

>>28312680
The real world. People don't know if gods exist or not because they don't do anything overtly godly and announce to everyone that they're doing it.