>>27991916
Yes, it's called "Not a real angel"

Mortal.

Tyrel.

"Hilarious"

Start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_angels

All I know so far is the collective noun will end in "-im"

It's called a "what the fuck? this isn't a real angel it's just some dude with wings"

Fucked.

"A angel whose wings have been plucked will shed all it's feathers and turn into the beast it was before it became an angel."

>>27991916
Not that I know of no. In Christian theology, angels that even have wings [not all do], are usually weird many faced creatures that are freaky and badass.

And there has never been a description of one of them losing a fight, except against another angel [usually fallen].

So no. If you need a word for it for your setting, I would use "Nephilim", the word used in the Old Testament for the massive half-demonic demigods that existed in Antidiluvian times.

Its not accurate, but it sounds cool.

>>27992030
Nephilim is the offspring of a fallen (or not?) angel and a human, not sure if calling them demigods is accurate.

קָצוּץ - Cut
גַף - Wing, Limb

Ktzotzgf

Ishim, "manlike beings"
Genesis 18:2, Daniel 10:5

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>>27992030
>Nephilim

Always wondered what they would think of their place in the world.

>>27992214
Knowing even God wants them dead? pretty hopeless I think

Future sacrifice to the Dark Lord

>>27992270
From a theological standpoint, there are only two possibilities.

1. God provided them spirits, ergo they are normal Men, except perhaps with greater strength and/or propensity to Evil. In this sense they would be akin to Orcs. Not born Evil, but born with Original Sin's badass grandma.

2. He doesn't, in which case all Nephilim were empty bodies inhabited by Devils.

>>27992310
I though Nephilims didn't have soul and they couldn't be ressurected, go to haven or whatever8

>>27992310
>>27992330
I thought they were the explanation for the folk heroes and mythical warriors from when the Semitic people were still polytheistic, then got subsumed into the newly monotheistic religion as an example of sin in antediluvian society.

If you're gonna invent a winged fantasy creature and call it angel you're also free to decide whatever happens to them after they have their wings cut off. They're definitely not judeochristian angels anyway. Go bananas. Call them Bob or Dave.

>>27992421
I'm talking from the perspective of theology. THat is to say, assuming for the moment these things are true, or at least, canon for the setting.

So from a theological/in-story standpoint, either Nephilim were born corrupt but not Evil. Or they were born Evil [which would have to mean, posessed by a Devil as a host]

>>27992062
No, thats something that Diablo 3 made up. The previous poster was completely right in saying that the Biblical nephilim are gigantic.. things from before the flood.

>>27991916

Roughly what I remember when I read about this, is that "Grigori" was a hebrew term for a fallen angel in which they were described to look just like people. It could be easily fudged to mean they have clipped wings.

>>27992518
They are the children of angels and the "Daughters of Man", so...

>>27992518
Technically the other anon was also on to something.

There were giants [Nephillim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

"Sons of God" is usually taken to mean angels, and on the basis of

"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

This is usually taken to mean demonic fallen angels.

Making Nephllim the equivalent of Tieflings or half-demons.

>>27992518
>thats something that Diablo 3 made up.
No it's not. Read your bible.

>>27992518

Enoch described them but the translation isn't perfect, it's a matter of interpretation. The giant thing may have had to do with power or something, and there's something about the angels laying with the daughters of seth or whatever... So who knows m8. Nephilim being half angel is a legit way to read it but the one thing that's pretty clear is the angels aren't keen on them

>>27991916
In Japanese, "fallen angel" is "datenchi". I don't know the kanji.

>>27992611
Angel is more like Tenshi.

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Paladin

>>27992518

Nephilim is commonly translated as Giants, so it stands to reason that they were huge.

But they weren't just before the flood. They were the cause of the flood.

>And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The men they reference as the fallen/angel halfbreeds. It's also safe to assume they were pretty evil.

>>27992518
>Diablo invented the idea of angels having snu snu with the daughters of men
Holy fuck, retards spread like a fucking plague

>>27992611

Those are more like Buddhist angels though .. like divine women who attend those who obtain nirvana etc. Look up the story of the feathered haori it's pretty cool

>>27992660

I don't remember that happening in Diablo anyway

>>27992597
>but the translation isn't perfect

That's quite the understatement. It says how many of these existed... the generally accepted number seems to be three but it could also be 200 myriad.

>>27992645
>Also safe to assume they were pretty evil
Or not, back then God was pretty mad with everything, he fell into rage for pretty much nothing.
He chilled out, eventually.

>>27992645

Well giant could refer to then being taller than average, or whatever...

>>27992681
Nephalem are the offsprings of angels and demons in DIII, basically they're Ancient Humans. The main character of DIII is a Nephalem.

>>27992686

Yea the whole book of Enoch stuff is kinda up to the reader and when taking inspiration from it you're pretty free to fill in the gaps I think. Anyone who argues can deal with it lol

Nephilims were the first attemps of creating the Primarchs

>>27992645
>Nephilim is commonly translated as Giants, so it stands to reason that they were huge.

Not necessarily. Giant can just as well refer to something being monsterously powerful.

>>27991916
In the In Nomine game, which is about Angels and Demons, Angels that have fallen from grace but not completely fallen to become demons are sometimes sarcastically referred to as "The Tripped."

>>27992690
Well, it was his first time DMing, and his players didn't do what he wanted, it was an awful railroaded campaign, it took a lot of time until he came up with a better idea, a sandbox campaign

>>27992760

I died...omg lol

>>27992690

Actually the story of the flood contains one of the best lost knowledge hooks for an adventure based on real mythology I've heard of.

In the days before the flood, Noah's son realising the catastrophic nature of God's wrath realised all the knowledge would be lost. As Noah built his ark, he laboured on recording the sum of all Knowledge, the arts of men and Watcher alike.

Different stories say different things about how he stored this knowledge. Some say he wrote them on 6 giant pillars, 3 of stone and 3 of book. other versions that he wrote them on tablets of Stone and Bronze, so that they might survive either fire or flood.

In any case he buried them deep beneath the desert so that they might be saved from God's wrath. But after the flood the shape of the land was changed, and the knowledge of the Nephilim was lost to time, just awaiting to be discovered.

Now if that is't a proper adventure hook, I don't know what is.

>>27992597

When I read "m8" there, I imagined you were John Constantine lurking 4chan.

Cheers.

>>27992645
>>27992690
>>27992696

In apocryphal writing and cross-source studies, it's theorized that the Nephilim were long-lived, supernaturally powerful people, like many of the 150+ year old folks from the old testament and other sources as well as Samson and possibly Goliath.

>>27992745
Could but doesn't. They are appently human in appearance but "their size being greater than that of great giants" is pretty clear.

>>27992831
You haven't convinced me, because you're still comparing their size to other giants, which could just be mean "great", in a metaphorical sense.

>>27992831
And someone that's 6'6" is still "a giant of a man" by most accounts.

>>27992894
More like 6', we are talking about people from before the flood, those were midgets.

>>27992894
Unless you live in Taiwan or Indonesia that is not giant. A bit tall certainly but not giant.

>>27992918
In the time of manlets, the modern-height man is king.

>>27992797
>3 of stone and 3 of book
>pillar of book
what the hell does a pillar of book look like?

>>27992918
Even more so.

Goliath was only supposed to be 6' something wasn't he?

Though, I'm sure if an Angel was walking around looking like Brock Lesnar people would take notice.

>>27992954

*brick sorry

>>27992944
Remember that people generally got less nutrition in those days, and would be the size of east asians.

>>27992968
The earliest texts put him at four cubits and a span, about 6'9".

>>27992546
"Grigori" is actually not a Hebrew word at all, but a Slavic adaptation of a Greek translation of a Hebrew term meaning "Watcher". The term "Grigori" itself mainly appears in the apocryphal Book of Enoch to refer to fallen angels, but the Hebrew word it's derived from also appears in the Book of Daniel to refer to a (non-fallen) angel that appears to Nebuchadnezzar in a dream, and commonly to refer to other (non-fallen) angels in other Jewish literature outside the Bible.

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>>27992954
This.

i dunno, earth bound? nephallim arnt fallen angels so much as they are super people born from angels. they are powerful, and for a while demanded blood sacrifice

>>27993025
What exactly is that, and why isn't it divided into multiple volumes?

>>27993047
...Fake?

neutered

>>27992030
>And there has never been a description of one of them losing a fight
Except for that Yisrael dude.

You know, the one who beat either a regular angel, Michael, or God in a wrestling match with a broken hip.

>>27993025
It would be a pillar of book. It's if wikipedia was a book. More than like fake and for the lolz.

>>27993076
I hope he did elbow drops in his time, plenty of them.

>>27993076
The name you're look for is Tulkas.

>>27992863
most native american tribes have stories about giants, which were in all likelihood just vikings looking around. the were like what, 6 ish to the americans 5'5? giant was a relative term.

In the book of Enoch,
"God send 12 angels on earth to help the humans.
The angels had sexual relations with the human's girls.
God said, the angels will never be angels anymore, they lost their wings, and became the fallen angels, because they couldn't be able to came back to heavn. "

>This is why we called fallen angels "fallen"
>This is how it's supposed to be called when their is no wings on an angel.

Rolled 1, 5 = 6

>>27993277
More than 7,
you forgive me for my bad english.

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>>27993277
I thought it was because they looked like this

>>27993277
>Sexual intercourse
>Angels
How?

>>27993277

Aren't angles supposed to be lovecraftian horrors, or many eyes, faces and hands that are almost sanity breaking to behold.

Do you think the women thought I'd tap that, or that there was a bit of coercion involved.

>mfw the bible could be the first recorded instance of tentacle rape porn.

>>27993331
>>27993349
There are a couple of Angels that have more or less humanoid bodies, the three headed ones come to mind.

>>27993349
Not all of them, some look like men.

>>27993331
>How?

I think the term "humans will breed with anything" had to come from somewhere.

>>27993349
Angels are beings of pure spirit. They wear bodies like we wear clothes. They may have preferred forms depending on their type and whatnot, but they can take human form with no difficulty.

Same way you get half-dragons in D&D. It's not that people are banging dragons in dragon form (usually); the dragons take humanoid form to bang humanoids.

>>27993349
Not all of them. The higher congresses of angels were non-euclidean nightmares but a lot of the lower ones were really just dudes with wings.

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>>27993331
Some things are better not known.

>>27993349
Some are more humanoid than others, but yeah, there are some really out there.

Presumably the more humanoid ones are the ones who fathered the Nephilim, which makes sense since they're also by and large the weaker sorts.

Rolled 5, 4 = 9

>>27993331
yeah, very strange, the worst part is, offsprings of the angels and the girls were giants, Like montains giants, killing humans, and eating all the supplies.
and were send to hell by angels.
>>27993349
This is not from the Bible, it's from Enoch's book, way before the bible.

>mfw i bought this book because it's illegal in the church, and you can go to hell owning this...

>>27993349
I have a theory (meaning that's how this shit works in my game setting) that since angels are 4th dimensional beings and we are only three dimensional, their true forms are compressed, by our brains, into a shape that we can comprehend. However, we can be bestowed the presence of mind to see them as they really are.

>>27992777
Holy trips makes it true.

This post is now Gospel.

>>27993428

I brought a copy of the Lesser Key of Solomon home once. My house was massively Christian. My mother is church minister and a trained exorcist.

And I was reading a book of Goetian demon summoning at the breakfast table. God, that was a good argument.

>>27993518
>God, that was a good argument.
Haha I love you.

>>27991916
A douche with a Halo and a Harp.

>>27993518
Wouldn't your mother use the Lesser Key as a reference manual, if she were an exorcist? Or was she just mad that you were reading a book with contents that could potentially and accidentally summon a demon?

>>27993331
not all of them are wheel fetus things

>>27993518
>Tranied exorcist
>"I want to be the very best...like noone ever was..."
>Azazel, I choose you!

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>>27993425
Thanks, now I have to go watch Knowing again.

>>27993502
>The flood and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah started because the murderhobo party wanted to invent A2M and patent it

Polite sage for off topic, but god damnit, /tg/.
You guys are literally one of the top-most tier boards on 4chan.

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http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Radiant_Idol
Pic related.

>>27993425
>Somethings are better not known
>that pic
>"You want me to put my dick in that multiple spinning wheels? are you crazy?"
>"no stupid mortal, we only mate with females"
>"fuck...now that you say no, I want to do it..."

>>27993549

The latter. And mostly her training consisted of recognising the signs of demonic possession containing with prayer, and then calling and waiting for back up from the church higher up bods.

She didn't actually think Goetia works, just that it makes you intensely vulnerable.

Looking back I was a little shit, who did things like that to piss her off. But it definitely gave me in interest in those things although of course I don't believe in them. I guess anything your parents tell you is dangerous kind of appeals.

Only unlike most teenagers it was demons rather than dope.

>>27993694
>Little Billy's high on Satan
>A Jack Chick production

>>27993428
>Enoch's book, way before the bible.
Only if by "the Bible" you mean the collected canon as compiled by the early Christian church. The Book of Enoch is younger than most of the Old Testament.

>>27993750
my sides rebelled against gods and were cast into hell.

>>27993750

Mate, my mum used to tell me I was going to hell when she came to tuck me into bed at night as a kid. All because I didn't want to go to Church on a Sunday because of cartoons.

Calling it abuse it probably a bit strong, but I'm not exactly a mentally healthy 25 year old. It's not all her fault but it certainly didn't help.

>>27991916
Bobiel. Bob for short. He's quite sensitive about it.

>>27993902
Which cartoon?

>>27993979
It would be awesome it were Hellboy

>>27993979

Just general sunday morning cartoons. I think it was Marvel Action Hour, if I'm being specific.

I don't think it was the cartoons she objected to. It was clearly the rejection of the Saviour Jesus Christ church by my 8 year old self, that got her riled. I didn't even really dislike church, I got to go to the kids group. I just like cartoons more.

>>27992660
Actually in diablo angels fucked demons and made humans, the argument you are making is Humans fucked Angels and created better humans.

>>27992030
>In Christian theology

You mean Jewish theology.

And the exact appearance of angels isn't really a theological question. A theologian would say that angels don't look like anything because they're immaterial.

But yeah in the Hebrew bible angels are usually described as horrible monsters. What's his name, one of the prophets during the Babylonian captivity I think, described seeing angels which looked like flaming eyeball covered "wheels within wheels" and also as chimera like amalgamations of various animals.

Fun fact: according to Islamic cosmology, angels have no free will. They're like God's mindless robot minions. And Satan isn't an angel, he's a djinn, which like angels are spirits but possessing free will.

>>27994090
>Islamic cosmology
That sounds cool as shit, do tell more.

>>27992029

BIG O

>>27994090
>What's his name, one of the prophets during the Babylonian captivity I think, described seeing angels which looked like flaming eyeball covered "wheels within wheels" and also as chimera like amalgamations of various animals.

Ezekiel. His name's Ezekiel.

Only reason I remember that is because of that song. "Ezekiel saw the wheel / way in the middle of the air..."

>>27994123
Not that other guy but it's pretty cool. Djinn could range from good to evil, like people. Shaitan (Satan) was an evil Djinn that whispered in your ear to convince you to do wicked things. Muhammed was quoted as saying that everyone has their own personal Djinn which protects them and keeps Shaitan from convincing you to do evil things.

Captcha: tstputi debauchery

Yeah, stuff like that.

>>27994180
Where do the Djinn come from?

>>27994123
It's not really any different from Jewish or Christian cosmology.

You've got God, and God created the material and immaterial cosmos. Humans are material beings with an immaterial soul while God and the spirits are just souls.

Also in the Islamic tradition angels are said to have been made from light, djinn from smokeless fire, and humans from clay. And Satan's sin was his refusal to bow to Adam. Jews and Christians aren't quite so explicit in regards to what caused Satan's rebellion.

>>27994254
Allah created them from smokeless fire and they live out of phase with us so, to each other, we normally appear like blurred air or steam.

>>27994180
>Djinn could range from good to evil, like people.

And Muhammad was meant to be God's prophet not just to humans but the djinn as well. They're supposed to listen to what the Koran says and behave themselves.

>>27994315

Which creates the assumption that there are Djinn who neither adhere to the Koran nor worship Allah.

>>27994180
>>27994315
Djinn sound like total bros, unlike guardian angels who to me come off like your personal snitch for God.

>>27994180
Djinn are free-willed beings made of 'smokeless fire', whereas humans are free-willed beings made of clay. Angels are basically the drones of God's heavenly bee-hive.

There are actually multiple terms for an angel who has had his wings removed. These terms include "gimp," "sissy," "fucktoy," and "cum dumpster."

>>27994364
Exactly. And apparently they can repent and be reconciled too.

Now according to the Vatican angels cannot repent. The Catechism of the Catholic church discusses angels some and it says that because angels exist outside of the material universe they exist outside of time, so there's no "before" or "after" to their actions, or something. And once an angel had fallen it's forever fallen and cannot be redeemed just like people can't be redeemed after they die.

It says something like that anyway. Don't quote me though.

>>27994476

Give me a second to see if it's brought up in the Catechism.

>>27994476
Catholics, what a dicks

>>27994476
>outside of time
>no before or after
Then why they decided to fall in the first place? if they already new how things were going to be?

>>27994503

Eh, don't see it offhand, I'd have to wade through all the theology and encyclicals to get to that official teaching and that's too much work for tonight.

I need to make a note of that though, I don't know nearly enough about what the Church teaches on the subject of Angels and Demons.

>>27994548
Because they could never not have decided to fall. Predestination and all that stuff.

>>27994476
>Everything is in God's plans
>Doesn't forgive fallen angels even if they repent
woah, I sense old testament levels of dickness here

>>27994564

Predestination and Election is really Calvinists' whole deal.

>>27994597
I guess so, but I get a kind of predestination vibe from the whole concept of Original Sin.

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>>27994609

Yeah, that's a question that's kind of plagued a lot of Christian theologians ever since Augustine, and it really comes right down to the Problem of Evil. That is, why does God allow Evil to exist in the world? And really, we don't have an answer other than "God has a plan that, as mortals with a limited, temporal view of the physical world, we are not privy to".

>>27994649
I like the Dharmic explanation of theodicy, personally.

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One of the interesting things about Satan is that he makes very few appearances in the Hebrew bible, and when he does show up it's sometimes pretty vague. According to this book by a Catholic bible scholar I was reading Satan is mentioned directly in three books but a Jewish person I've spoken with says that the number is five.

Also according to that Catholic guy all mentions of Satan are from postexilic writings, which suggests that, during the Babylonian captivity, the Jewish religious leaders came to personify the concept of forces opposed to God as a result of contact with Zoroastrianism.

Although apparently it's implicit to the text in a few cases that Satan is not God's enemy, but rather a member of the celestial court who tests the virtue of humans on God's behalf. Which is a bit different from the idea that Satan is trying to act against God but unwittingly does so in a manner which is in accordance with God's master plan.

Anyway, it's important to note that Satan was not originally associated with the snake in the genesis account of creation. That snake was just a really dickish reptile.

>>27994694
>Also according to that Catholic guy all mentions of Satan are from postexilic writings

Whoa, whoa wait, Job is a post-exile writing? I thought it was actually the oldest book of the Old Testament (in that it was the first transcribed, the other books are older in the sense that their origin was in oral tradition for much longer).

>>27994694
>1329518085279
Yes, Satan is to God as fake-Mr.Slugworth is to Willy Wonka. At least that's my interpretation of it, at least.

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>>27994649
>All the inconsistencies and conflicting ideas in the theology are a direct result of Nyarlathotep.

>>27994590
Well from this Catechism standpoint angels can't repent, ever, once they rebelled.

>>27994560
I'm pretty sure it's in there somewhere.

>>27994564
Catholics reject predestination.

This concept is difficult to wrap one's head around but apparently once an angel rebelled it always had rebelled. Because timelessness and whatever.

>>27994719
This is why bible scholars are a thing.

It's a 3000 year old book edited by politicians and religious leaders (also politicians) and translated out of four different languages held up as the word of a god.

Of course there's confusion.

>>27994743
>I'm pretty sure it's in there somewhere.

Combing through it more closely right now, give me a minute.

>>27994694
That's a picture of Jesus by the way, as he's described in Revelation aka "the book of heavy metal."

>>27994772

Aha, here it is!

Under "The Fall of the Angels"

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM

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>>27994743
So it was created already as a rebel? so it was right to kill them from the begining? good.

>>27994780
>the book of heavy metal

Revelation is some pretty heady shit, but it's got NOTHING on some of the non-canonical apocalyptic narratives like Enoch.

>>27994820
Which was the Gnostic, apocryphal one that had the cross hovering above the ground and speaking to people after Jesus's Crucifixion?

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>>27994780
Jesus is Alucard?

>>27994804
>The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

(text in quotation marks is from the Fourth Lateran Council in the 13th century, for those keeping track)

>>27991916
>Is there a specific name for an angel with its wings clipped?
a demon and/or devil

>>27994838

Beats me, give me a second to see if I can dig it up, I've got a book on apocalypse narratives sitting around here somewhere...

>>27994845
>Always had rebelled
>Started good
>But there's no start or end for them because they're outside time
My head is hurting now

>>27994893
Also, remember they're evil because God said so, because they don't have free will like men, and because God's plans and stuff.

>>27994840
No Jesus backwards is Susej

>>27994893
Meta-fuckery is all in Gods shit.

Just gotta accept it.

>>27994772
If you can't find it I'll look, I also have a copy of the catechism.

Since we're talking about more general theological stuff at this point I'd like to go out on a tangent and mention that according to some scholars Hinduism was approaching a sort of monotheism way before Christianity ever existed.

I was asking doctor what's his face at my university, the Hinduism guy, whether Hindu pantheism stems from the influence of the Abrahamic religions and he said no.

See sometimes you hear Hindus talking about God, because they equate brahman, the all encompassing divine cosmos, with God, and the precedent for doing so goes way back.

It's important to note though that this Hindu vision of God is much less personable than the Abrhamic vision.

Doctor what's his face's dissertation adviser, this old guy from India, is actually going to be coming to my university in about a month to give a whole lecture on the brahman = God concept. I'm pretty excited for it, I love religious studies.

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>>27994893
>>27994924

The explanation for how Mary was conceived without Original Sin has to do with the grace and salvation literally time-travelling back from the event of the Crucifixion and Resurrection to apply to only her.

Man, I'm Catholic,and some of this stuff sounds crazy even to me.

>>27994968
There are people who don't realize that Brahman=Ishvara=God=Allah=etc, etc?

>>27994968
>It's important to note though that this Hindu vision of God is much less personable than the Abrhamic vision.

This is true of creator gods in most other polytheistic religions. They don't get as much attention as the other gods or spirits that are involved more closely with day-to-day life.

>>27994838
>Which was the Gnostic, apocryphal one that had the cross hovering above the ground and speaking to people after Jesus's Crucifixion?

FYI most of the Gnostic scriptures aren't technically apocryphal because they were written after the New Testament canon was compiled. A writing can only be apocrypha if it's rejected as canon, if it comes after the canon then it's neither canon nor apocrypha.

>>27994920
>because they don't have free will like men

That's according to Muslims, and it only applies to angels who are good because they have to be.

This Catholic interpretation I've mentioned says that angels have free will but because they're timeless they had either always forever chosen to be have had been good or they had always forever chosen to have been bad.

>>27995023
Hmm, well that what is its official designation?

>>27994838
>cross hovering above the ground and speaking to people after Jesus's Crucifixion

That sounds like an really annoying sidekick character in a game or anime.

>>27995051
>They totally can choose, but they don't choose because their will is fixed...in time...and stuff
That's like cheating

>>27995056

just simply "non-canonical" will do.

>>27995110
Well that's rather boring.

>>27995104

When you're dealing with stuff that lies beyond the scope of our universe and what we can observe within our own timeframe, there's only so much you can reason out.

Anyone who's read up on Jewish theology- where does Quaballah tie into this?

>>27994090
>But yeah in the Hebrew bible angels are usually described as horrible monsters. What's his name, one of the prophets during the Babylonian captivity I think, described seeing angels which looked like flaming eyeball covered "wheels within wheels" and also as chimera like amalgamations of various animals.

I much prefer this "unthinkable Lovecraftian horror" style over the modern "buff white male with flowing blonde hair and fluffy swan wings" crap.

>>27995056
"Non-canonical." Apocryphal and non-canonical do not mean the same thing, see. And apocrypha can be semi-canon, sometimes.

All of the major world religions have canons of scripture, by the way. I've heard it said that outside of the Abrahamic religions there are not sacred books which isn't all that true, really. While the Hindu and Buddhist canons aren't given the central importance which the bible and Koran are usually afforded Hindus and Buddhists and so whoever do have writings which are regarded as sacred, authoritative, and to some extent divinely inspired.

>>27995153

Well, there's a reason why angels always greet the people they visit with "FEAR NOT".

Even though I have a lot of issues with Pullman's "His Dark Materials" trilogy, I loved how he described angels as something like living architecture or geometry.

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>>27995147
Kaballah is the Jewish school of mysticism, like Sufism is to Islam. Qaballah is the Christian version of it, and then there are Thelemic and various other occult takes on the concept.
>>27995154
True enough, but some religions place more import on their books than others.

>>27995153
The white man with wings is probably how they (usually) appear before men, just to not scare the shit out of them. At least that's what I would do

>>27995147
Kabbalah is not canon or apocrypha. It's meant as an addition to the Hebrew bible, and is less important than it.

There are two types of Orthodox Jews, I think, the Haredic and the Chasdic sects, and the difference between them is the Kabbalah. Like whether it's authoritative or not.

That's all I know, really.

>>27995196
So I should be asking one of the jews with the hats and funny sideburns?

This is the second good theologic discussion we have had in a week. I love when /tg/ gets like this.

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>>27995249

You guys always have the best religious discussions because you all know your shit.

I always feel like I come away from these things learning something new, or having something new to look into.

>>27995178
>True enough, but some religions place more import on their books than others.

Well even within religions there's discrepancies as to how sacred writings should be treated.

Take Christianity. Catholics don't take the bible literally and never have, not since Augustine of Hippo said that was a dumb idea in the fourth century. It's still authoritative and sacred however.

Protestantism was founded in part on the idea that the bible is the absolute core of all Christian religious teachings but even so the traditional Protestant sects don't take it all that literally either.

Then you've got the Evangelicals sects, they tend to focus on biblical literalism which is why you've got high schools taking evolution out of science text books.

>>27995315
Oh, I was meaning like Sikhs vs Jains vs Buddhists vs Shinto vs etc. And that;s without bringing in all the interesting fringe/occult groups.

>>27995056

Fanfic. Like the Book of Mormon.

>>27995315
>Catholics don't take the bible literally and never have, not since Augustine of Hippo said that was a dumb idea in the fourth century. It's still authoritative and sacred however.

The deal with Catholics is that we don't believe God's revelation to his people STOPPED when the last word of the Bible was penned and published, it's an ongoing process. And while the Bible is important to that, as it's the divinely inspired word of god to his people, it's not the ONLY source of authority in the Church.

The one thing Protestants have up on us is that most Catholics from my experience have really terrible understanding of what's actually IN the Bible and don't bother to read it outside of what readings are used for the Liturgy.

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Some Hindus say that Krishna, the blue guy in the Bhagavad Gita, is the eight incarnation of Vishnu. And Buddha is the ninth, and Jesus the tenth. Isn't that interesting?

Going back to the Hindu monotheism/pantheism thing I was going on about earlier, Vishnu can sort of be regarded as Hindu Jesus in that he is God personified.

>>27993076
You've got the order wrong.
Whoever Jacob wrestled, Jacob was so strong that his opponent had to break his hip to win.

>>27995153
Agreed. My favorite is one of the descriptions of Azrael, the angel that is tasked with writing down the name of every person born in a book, and erasing the name of every person who dies.

He's so huge his feet are in the lower heavens, and his head is in the upper heavens. He has ten thousand wings. His body is made of tongues and eyeballs, the number of which corresponds with the number of living beings on earth.

Lovecraft just ripped off angelology, in my opinion, and find-replaced wings with tentacles.

>>27995447
All of the Hindu avatars are God personified. But Krishna was also: a shepherd, born or a virgin mother, and many other coincidences with Jesus. Also Mithra.

>>27994270
jews don't believe that satan rebelled. in judaism, הַשָּׂטָן, "the accuser/adversary" is the angel (or possibly a title given to whatever angel is fulfilling the role) who serves as the over zealous prosecutor in God's courts, trying to prove that people are sinners.

>>27995463
I thought that the story went that he never had a chance against the angel, but he did his damnedest even knowing that, fighting against an extension of god.

>>27995470
>All of the Hindu avatars are God personified.

Yup, that's pantheism. Everything is a part of God (the gods especially).

However the edges between pantheism and true monotheism sometimes blur a bit in Hinduism because in some cases, like with Visnhu, you have Hindus saying "this really is God here you guys, not just an aspect of God or a slice of the divine cosmos or whatever."

>>27995498
Some fights are worth fighting even if you already know the result

>>27995477
Sort of like the inverse of a Devil's Advocate, ironically enough.

>>27995427
>The one thing Protestants have up on us is that most Catholics from my experience have really terrible understanding of what's actually IN the Bible and don't bother to read it outside of what readings are used for the Liturgy.

I've seen and known Protestants who are the exact same way. Most get their info from whoever is currently preaching.

>>27995477
Mastema, Samael, Samyaza and Lucifer are all angels that have been called Satan at different times. The later three have been heavily demonized.

>>27995498

Actually, I'm reading the text right now, here's the passage in question (Genesis 32: 25-27)

>Jacob was left there alone. Then some man wrestled with him until the break of dawn. When the man saw that he could not prevail over him, he struck Jacob's hip at its socket so that the hip socket was wrenched as they wrestled.

>The man then said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go until you bless me."

Dude literally fought an angel to a standstill.

>>27995477

That depends on what flavor of Jew you're talking about. Post-Babylonian diaspora, they brought back all kinds of Zoroastrian shit and injected it into traditional Cult of Yahweh. One of those injections was Ahriman/Satan as adversary instead of as agent.

>>27995447
Baha'is believe similar, with Krishna, Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha, Zoroaster (etc.) all being different incarnations of the single god.

>>27995564
Some religions try and unify others try to segregate.

>>27995559
>Jacob was left there alone. Then some man wrestled with him until the break of dawn
>get bored
>fight a dude to end your boredom
Sounds like my kind of guy.

>>27995559
Wonder who would win... Jacob, who wrestled an angel down, or Samson, who killed an entire army with nothing but the jawbone of an ass and his bare hands...
Damn the bible is awesome.

>>27995564
Baha'i goes to the extreme end of the inclusivistic spectrum by saying that every religion is absolutely true, right? Contradictions and everything.

Rather than the more mainstream idea that spirituality is like a mathematical equation, and all these religions say they have the right answer and that everyone else might come close to the right number but they're still off some.

True exclusivism is a rare thing with religion.

>>27995104
It is like figuring out time paradox puzzles. Shit is just too much for our mind at this moment.

>>27991916
According to Angel Sanctuary, having your wings ripped off is the most excruciating way an Angel can die.

>>27993454
If the 4th dimension is time, and humans experience time, doesn't that mean humans are 4-dimensional, and something that is beyond time (i.e. an angel) would have to be 5-dimensional or greater?

>>27995657
Most Monotheistic religions are of the opinion that they're right, and everyone else is various shades of wrong.

>>27995642

My favorite old testament story has always been Elijah completely stylin' on the priests of Ba'al in a sacrifice altar-off. (1 Kings 18:21-40)

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I know the whole lovecraftian horror thing is awesome and all, but we have a thread praising that style twice every week. I wonder if it'll ever come around and then "some dude-with wings" will become the new hot shit in angel style.

It's bound to happen right?

>>27995192
Some angels just say fuck it, I am going in my bathing suit to see that man I was supposed to see.

Other angels dress up.

>>27995687

But that doesn't mean that we can't find middle ground on certain things.

Read up on some Thomas Merton, he was a Trappist monk that wrote a lot on spirituality and mysticism and did a lot of work trying to connect Catholic teachings with Buddhist principles. Pretty cool stuff.

>>27995691
I love that story. Its one of the best examples I know of that showcases the Priesthood's con-artist miracles.

>>27995427
Interesting. Which other sources do the Catholics also list?

>>27995720
I'm not saying that's my opinion, just that that's the official stance of most religions with actual organizations behind them.

>>27995687
Well Buddhism is really like that too.

While Buddha may have likened his teachings to a raft which were not totally necessary to discovering the truth of the ultimate reality, he was still pointing towards "the ultimate reality." He did make objective truth claims even if he generally shied away from saying anything really concrete regarding cosmology or anything.

>>27995465
Imagine going to heaven and seeing this one angel spanning the entirety of heaven.

>>27995520
So all the deities in Hinduism are like angels?

>>27995739

Well, all branches of Christianity take authority from four different sources

>Scripture
>Tradition
>Human Reason
>Personal Revelation

Just in different proportions.

Catholics put more emphasis on Tradition and Reason than most other Christian denominations, but we don't disregard the other two either. Divine inspiration is an ongoing, recognized process, and the Bible will always be the source of God's revelation throughout history to his chosen people. That's pretty indisputable.

>>27995739
Various theological writings, like the stuff penned by Augustine and Aquinas in particular, are practically given authoritative status just a level below the bible itself

>>27994649
I'll bite.
God allows evil because evil is a result of choice. If a dog bites you with no provocation, the dog is not evil because it did not choose to bite you - the dog's instincts made it bite you. Without choice, all you have is cause and effect.
With choice, you can get evil, sure. But you can also get good. It's the risk you take when you make something that can make its own choices. Like children.
If we didn't have choice, we'd be a planet of robots.

>>27995522
Actually the story makes sense now.

>>27992098
actually
גַף - body
wing is "Kanaf", wings are "Knaphaim"
And you are just arbitrarily combining hebrew words in a way that nobody has ever done before.

>>27995782
Not really, no. Angels in the Abrahamic tradition are not parts of God, they're created beings. They're separate, they have their own souls.

With Hinduism every one of the gods, as well as every person and animal and everything everywhere is a part of brahman, which some Hindus equate with God.

>>27995064
>>27995023
The Book of Mormon.

>>27995816
>arbitrarily combining words in a way that nobody has ever done before
That's kinda how languages develop.

>>27995559
Now I am imagining Jacob pulling WWF moves on angels.

>>27995803

That's always been my view of it too.

God knows what we're going to choose because he exists outside of our own limited, mortal viewpoint of the universe, but we still have the choice in this moment to do what we will.

>>27995782
Ehh, kind of. In Hinduism it's more like they're are people, who are above animals in intelligence and moral awareness; and then above people are various angel-like superhuman beings (devas, asuras, nagas, garudas, etc) then some other stuff, then the Ultimate Reality That Is GOD.

>>27995816
correcting myself, you probably meant "Gaff" instead of "Goof" which are both spelled the same in hebrew but are pronounced differently.
Gaff can be translated as wing under some circumstances... but it is not that kind of wing (an organ that is used for flight). Rather it refers to organizational structure. (ex "The administrative wing of our military")

>>27995842
WHATCHA GUNNA DO BROTHER

>>27995836

the post was asking if there is a word already existing, not "can we make up a word for this"

>>27995836
>That's kinda how languages develop.
OP asked if there is a name for it in established literature, not asked us to invent a new name for the concept

>>27995782
Some what. The Abrahamic religions are monotheistic because of how they interpreted the First Commandment (You shall have no other god before me). Angels could considered dedivinified gods.

>>27995782
I thought all the hindu deities were aspects of the same being.

>>27995790
Despite being a protestant, I actually agree with the Catholic approach to divine inspiration. Not sure about the Mary parts though. Otherwise I would not mind being Catholic.

We are all a part of the greater church anyways.

>>27995642
Here's the really interesting thing about Samson: he wasn't a strong guy.
Sure, he had lots of displays of Colossus-tier super-strength. But that was always prefaced by "And the spirit of the Lord came upon him in power". When the spirit of the Lord left him because he'd broken his covenant, he was immediately captured because he was just as strong as everyone else, and he only regained his strength once he asked God to forgive him.

>>27995898
So he was Captain Marvel?

>>27995793
Ahhh, thanks. I will have to read up on them later.>>27995859

>>27995859
Do you smell what the JACOB is cooking?

>>27995894

In the sense that the over-"god" is made up of literally everything? Sure. But there are discrete entities which are facets of that all-soul which are gods.

>>27995894
Its kinda quantum in the the way all electrons may be all the same electron at different points in its existence.

>>27995931
the father, son, and the holy spirit dialed up to 11?

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>>27995897
>We are all a part of the greater church anyways.

Amen to that, my brother.

>>27995944
More like dialed up to 1111.

>>27995898
Isn't Samson considered a really dumb dude otherwise?

A tool if I was to use a colloquial term?

>>27995964

He was pretty smart, beat a couple guys in a riddle contest at one point (although he cheated in that the riddle he proposed was impossible to solve unless you knew the specific circumstance he witnessed that he was referring to).

He just had a weakness when it came to the ladies.

>>27995940
My mind. It is broken.

Fix it back to what it used to be, anon.

>>27995964
Yep. His hair may have been a magic feather.

>>27995699
Personally, I like both. Though the winged humanoid version needs to be sufficiently majestic and heavenly, not just a straight up pretty person with wings. Get some radiance in there. I especially like it when they're androgynous and anonymous. Androgynous because it accentuates the fact that these are not earthly creatures; they have no concern for fleshly matters like gender. And then make them have no face -- their features obscured by a brilliant halo, or even having their face simply be a blank space of light or whatever. Helps bring out the otherworldliness, and plays up their role as servants of a higher power.

But yeah, I think winged humanoid stuff is great for the low-tier angels. When the lovecraftian shit comes out, you know you're dealing with one of the big dogs.

>>27995897
I am actually curious too.

How does the Catholics see Mary? Was it based off logic that Mary intercedes on behalf of believers? Or that saints do?

Isn't anyone who believe in Christ a Saint according to the New Testament?

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>>27995906
Except instead of saying "Shazam", he doesn't cut his hair, drink intoxicating wine (meaning wine that wasn't watered down for every-day drinking because water wasn't safe to drink) or touch corpses.
>>27995964
Samson wasn't exactly the brightest knife in the crayon box, but he wasn't an idiot. He was just a sucker for a pretty face.
>>27995989
The hair was part of the aforementioned covenant. God basically said "I'll make you a deal - follow these 3 commands, and I'll make you a superhero". When Samson failed to obey all three, God took the power back, as was his right.
>>27995949
Represent, brother.

>>27996037
3 rules. 3 simple rules.

And he still fucked up.

>>27995931
>In the sense that the over-"god" is made up of literally everything?

Yes. Brahman is everything. That's exactly what it is.

And atman, the innermost self, or subtle self, that's you, your soul.

The secret to enlightenment in Hindu thought is the understanding that brahman is atman.

You, the gods or devas or spirits or whatever, other people, plants and animals and rocks and dirt and the ocean and stars and planets and electrons and everything, they're all a part of the all encompassing divine reality which is God.

>>27992214
It's said that they're men of great strength, like heroes among men.

This is why I love /tg/. We don't need the other boards anymore.

>>27992573
In some translations it comes out meaning children of Christian fathers and heathen mothers.

>>27996028
Catholics basically consider Mary to be the highest of the Saints. One touched by God in all three forms.

>>27996028

Go go Catholic apologetics

>How does the Catholic church see Mary?

Mary is the Mother of God, the Immaculate Conception, Queen of Heaven, a crap ton more titles afforded her (no seriously, she's like the patron saint of half the countries on earth) assumed body and soul into heaven, and is the top most holy and venerated saint there is.

The "communion of saints" refers to the community of believers that have been accepted into heaven. The guys that actually get that "St." next to their names are the ones who have been approved through a lengthy canonization process that demonstrates that they are in fact in the presence of God and intercede on our behalf to him.

Saints are both role models for how to live out holy lives and intercessors for when we have specific problems and would like them to put in a good word for us to God, since they know what we're going through. You don't pray TO Saints or worship them, you ask for them to intercede on your behalf to God. That's an important distinction!

Does that all help?

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>>27996028
>How does the Catholics see Mary?

She's sinless. That's the dogma of the immaculate conception, that she was conceived without Original Sin, the inherent imperfection all humans aside from her share.

She's not deified or worshiped though, although some Protestants have made that case.

Like good old Jack Chick, the guy who made the comic about how D&D teaches kids legit witchcraft which they use to mind control their parents.

He says that all the Jesus stuff Catholics go on about is just a front to hide their true identity as a pagan mother goddess worshiping cult.

>>27996124
>>27996112

It does help. However, on what rationale would they place Mary on the top of the pyramid?

And the saints are basically your good buddies that tell the boss you did good when you did not screw up?

>>27995563
Except the Satan is still generally seen as an agent of God's will by modern Judaism.

>>27996063
>3 rules. 3 simple rules.
>And he still fucked up.
Because he chose to disobey. As I said earlier: that's the risk you take when you make something capable of choice.
And later, he apologized and chose to obey again. Guess what happened next? M-M-M-MONSTER KILL[/SPOILER]
>>27996096
Protip: Christians didn't exist back then.

>>27995559
that was the metatron right? The herald of god who speaks because if god actually talked to mortals we'd have our eyes blown out of our socket and our ears collapse into our brains?

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>>27996139

I love Jack Chick in that he makes the Catholic Church out to be so much cooler than we really are.

I mean, I WISH we were awesome enough to have squads of ninja assassins and secret underground supervillain bunkers.

>>27996166
Why did I laugh so hard?

Yes, Old Testament is actually filled with personal stories of redemption as well.

Kill streak!

>>27996139
She was born of the line of David though...

>>27996156

Mary is sinless, assumed body and soul into heaven (which is a BIG DEAL) and, as an anon mentioned earlier, has encountered God in all three parts of the Trinity.

>And the saints are basically your good buddies that tell the boss you did good when you did not screw up?

That's a way of looking at it, yes.

>>27996156

>It does help. However, on what rationale would they place Mary on the top of the pyramid?

Many reasons. First, she never sinned and was born without original sin, so she is the most pure human ever. Second, she is the mother of God, so she deserves special respect. Third, since she is the mother of Jesus, it makes sense to pray to her because Jesus loves his mother and will be more likely to listen to your prayers if his mother vouches for you.

>>27996156
Filial piety. The "Mary is Jesus' mother so she should be important" line of thought.

>>27996171

Which angel it is isn't mentioned in the text itself, just that it's an angel.

>>27996205
>>27996206

I can see the rationale there. I think I finally to beginning to understand Catholics a bit.

Thanks good anons!

>>27994694
Satan's name means accuser in Hebrew. He's there to test, acting like Gods prosecutor in the old testament

>>27996171
Metatron is not a Scriptural figure as such. The man Jacob wrestled remains unnamed.
Protip: the only named angels in the Bible are Michael (military leader), Gabriel (messenger) and Lucifer (former 2nd in command of everything, but rebelled).
>>27996200
That just means she had royal ancestry. As did her husband and Jesus' adoptive father, Joseph, albeit with a break dozens of generations earlier.

>>27995782
More like "saints" in the Christian sense.

>>27994754
Is there a collected work of biblical writings on this change? I'd like to see how things changed from version to version

The thing I don't get about Samson is why he told Delila his secret weakness when he knew that she wanted the information in order to render him powerless. She'd already tried to take away his strength once, when he'd lied to her about what his weakness was. Why would he go ahead and tell her his real weakness then?

I understand that the guy was a sucker for pretty women but fuck's sake Samson, if she's trying to hand you over to your worst enemies to be tortured and imprisoned you might just want to look past her nice body.

>>27996233

If you've got more questions, the Catechism itself does a good job of explicitly laying out some of the fundamentals of doctrine.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Thanks for asking though, always happy to help.

>>27996028
>Isn't anyone who believe in Christ a Saint according to the New Testament?
Without getting into the nitty gritty of just what is necessary and sufficient for salvation, yes. Basically, "saints" in the Catholic tradition are those individuals whom we can fairly confidently say are definitely saints in the more general sense. Salvation is ultimately known to God alone, but when a person is plainly extraordinarily devout and is associated with miraculous occurrences, it's a pretty safe bet that they're in heaven.

Mary is considered especially prominent among the saints, because of her unique role as the mother of Jesus and various bits in the Bible that are interpreted to refer to her having a special place in heaven.

Saints are believed to intercede on behalf of people still on earth in basically the same way living people intercede for each other -- by prayer. Just because they're dead and in heaven doesn't mean that they're cut off from what's happening on earth, and because they're so especially righteous, their intercession is believed to be especially efficacious ("the prayer of the righteous availeth much" and all). Mary, being extra special even by the standards of the canonized saints, is held to have even greater intercessory influence. (Plus, I mean, she is Jesus's mom. It was her intercession that got Him to perform His first recorded miracle, so she's pretty well documented to have that sort of pull.)

>>27996273
Will read when I can, good anon.

>>27996063
To be fair, he /technically/ didn't break any of those rules. God said "don't cut your hair." By the /letter/ of the law, he didn't cut his hair. someone ELSE did.

>>27996264
There's lots of writings from various bible scholars, both secular and religious.

With the Catholic translation of the bible I own like 40% of every page is devoted to notes and annotations about history and etymology and so forth.

>>27996290
Which is why he's able to pull down the temple after he's been captured, but only AFTER he accepts god into his heart unconditionally.

>>27996063
It is like countless anons shouting ONE JOB at him.

>>27996264

I can tell you that the version I was recommended to use by my Religious Studies professor was the New Revised Standard Version. It's one of the more recent ones, translated by an ecumenical group of Biblical scholars, and tries to adhere as literally to the original text while still keeping the language more natural sounding and easier to read than some of the more explicitly dry versions. I quite like it.

>>27996280
That makes sense. Thanks anon!

>>27996308
Gotta love that NAB.

>>27996334
King Jame's version is much more poetic and has lovely English written by the best English scholars at that time.

I have been recommended NIV but I understand there are some criticisms of it.

>>27996290
To be fair, he told someone who had been trying to de-power him exactly how to do it.
>>27996271
Men have done, still do and will do really stupid things for women.

>>27996308
I actually would like that. I found the context fascinating.

Mary being sinless is important to Catholics because she suffered for God but not because she had to.

According to Catholics everyone has to suffer to make recompense for their sins. Doing so is a privilege. This one Catholic theologian wrote that angels envy humans for one thing only, and that is our capacity to suffer on God's behalf. Angels, the good angels, don't get to suffer for God though because they never did anything to offend God.

Well Mary never offended God but she suffered for God which is why she's tops, over all other saints and the angels also.

>>27996355
>I have been recommended NIV but I understand there are some criticisms of it.

Pretty much all the Bibles lie on some sort of continuum between "poetic language" and "literal translation". Some people dislike the NIV because it disregards some of the literal translation to make stuff sound cooler. It's great as a personal Bible, but some scholars will frown on citing it for serious study.

>>27996384
>not muh scriptures
It's like I'm really on /co/.

>>27996384
Good point.

>>27996402

(I was in the /co/ religion thread we had a couple days ago)

But yeah, we have actually had "what if we treated religion like we do with comic continuity" joke threads for precisely that reason.

>>27996236
>Lucifer (former 2nd in command of everything, but rebelled

I think most theologic historians suspect that this was the result of a misinterpretation of quote taken out of context referring to the Morning Star(Venus).

>>27996264
We only have theories right now. Torah and Bible scholars are always debating when and what order stuff was added.

The Torah has the Documentary Hypothesis and the New Testament has the Synaptic Problem.

>>27996461
Some times I wish /co/ has its own foolz for me to read on these threads.

>>27996467
>The Torah has the Documentary Hypothesis and the New Testament has the Synaptic Problem.

what are those

>>27996482

Google is your friend!

>>27996481
https://archive.foolz.us/co/

>>27996355
The King James Bible is bullshit.
It was written and rewritten to please King James, not to have any sort of accuracy.

>>27996236
>Protip: the only named angels in the Bible are Michael (military leader), Gabriel (messenger) and Lucifer (former 2nd in command of everything, but rebelled)
There's also Raphael if you use the Catholic canon.

>>27996519
Now I feel like a fool.

>>27996525
>>27996236
What about Uriel?

>>27996522
New King James is authoritative though.

>>27993331
Penis into vagina.

>>27996482

Theory that the Torah is composed of 4 sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

Debate on the order the Synoptic Gospels were written:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels#Composition

>>27996550
Oh right, I've heard of those theories before.

>>27996537
Not mentioned. There is an Angel of Death, but that goes unnamed as well.
>>27996384
>Some people dislike the NIV because it disregards some of the literal translation to make stuff sound cooler.
And so it came to pass that Jesus donned sweet shades, grabbed his board and caught some gnarly waves.
>>27996461
Except on /co/, it always devolves into euphoria-fests. Always.
Here...
it's the version of this pic where it says "/tg/" "what?" "anything at all" and the last pic is a bunch of historical figures from all walks of life sitting a table drinking alcohol and writing.

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>>27996619
It would help if I posted the picture.

>>27996525

Raphael, Micahel, and Gabriel are the three Archangels in Catholic tradition, which means they get veneration like the saints do.

>>27996537
Only named in extrascriptural and non-canonical sources. Though he was accepted as named archangel by the Catholic Church until recently. A book my priest gave me for my confirmation has him listed right along with Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, but apparently not too long after that the Church changed its policy regarding angels not named in scripture to crack down on New Age-style angel cults.

>>27996633
When does veneration crosses into worship with icons?

>>27996661

When you start praying TO the image, instead of using it as a spiritual aid to help you better visualize divine, abstract concepts that are difficult to incorporate into your life.

They represent things. But they are not the things that they represent.

>>27996681
I see. A tight rope.

>>27996681
>They represent things. But they are not the things that they represent.
This. Same reason why Christians don't actually think of God as a big bearded man. That's just the only way we can visualize someone being really, really old. Like, older than your mother, and even THAT hasn't been confirmed yet.

>>27996619
>and the last pic is a bunch of historical figures from all walks of life sitting a table drinking alcohol and writing.
Are you referring to the Reply Of the Cossacks?

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He's a cripple right?
Call him retard.

>>27996734
Why, yes, I am. I was under the impression that they were not all of the same national origin.

>>27996019
I like the blending of lovecraftian unknowability with glorious beauty. The whole notion that the big gun angels are eldritch horrors is, to me, missing the point of them being angels. Sure, they may be terrifying to look upon, but not because they are abominable or hideous- it's because they're so goddamn glorious and beautiful. Their radiance and power is a complete opposite of the eldritch horror, even if it might have similar effects on people. It's like living your entire life underground, not knowing there's a surface world, only to wake up one day with a close up view of the sun.

This is a good thread.

>>27996734
/co/ sounds like a pretty good bunch of guys.

>>27996633
Isn't Uriel one of them, too?