/tg/ you're the only ones I trust with this. Me and my buddies have all agreed that Christian mythology is fascinating as fuck and they want me to run a game based on it. The problem is I don't know of any Biblical stories that would make for a good adventure. If I just truss up a regular story with a Christian motif I feel like it'd be a let down. So what's the best (hopefully lest pretentious) story I could use as an adventure hook?
Well there was this time an evil empire enslaved a race of magicians and their head mage had to slap their shit to let them go.And that time a tribe of desert warriors had to fight giants.And wrestling fucking angels.
Your girlfriends have gone to Sodom and/or Gomorrah for a bachelorette party.Are you bad enough dudes to rescue the babes before God rains fire down on them?
This should be an NPC from your campaign.http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=12&ch=2&l=23#xHe curses these kids and two female bears maul them to death
Grab Testament. Use for ideas.
Be angelsBattle demonsKinds look at people shuffling around sand and killing each other in massive quantaties
>>27012139> And he went up from thence to Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, little boys came out of the city and mocked him, saying: Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.#rekt
>>27012068Surely the book of Revelations has some inspiring material?
What era are you planning to use, New or Old Testament?If the former, what period of time?
What do you mean by Christian mythology? Do you mean old testament stories from the Bible, or the folklore of Christian Europe such as the legend of Prester John or the search for the holy grail?
>>27012186>kids proceed to get torn apart by bearsShit sonCalm down
>>27012204Old Testament I figured, that's the one with all strange (relatively speaking I mean) stories right? I'm not entirely sure what era that would be, but I think it's understood between the group that it's not going to be set IN the bible. Just really inspired by it.>>27012206Yes? Sorry I wish I had a better answer but all of us grew up atheist and kind of ignorant about whats canon in Christianity. All of the outside myths are kind of blended in there for us.
>>27012270>whats canon in ChristianityDepends on who you ask. There's more kinds of christians than there are pimples on a basementdweller's back.
>>27012117Better go with Gomorrah. Everyone here's Sodom and they go "lol buttsex" even though there was plenty of other shit that happened there.
>>27012068Just make them crusaders with a bit of supernatural.
>>27012191There's no S in the book of Revelation.
For me the most interesting period in the Bible has to have been the antediluvian age in the book of Genesis. This is the era before the flood of Noah, back when men lived to be over 900 years old and it never rained. During this period the angels from heaven regularly had intercourse with the human women, who gave birth to sons of superhuman strength and height. These 'Nephilim' were the heroes of old, but unfortunately became exceedingly wicked until nearly every man, woman and child on Earth was so corrupted that God felt the need to wipe the slate clean.Sadly the records from this era are shoddy at best.
I had considered writing up a campaign based on Judeo-Christian mysticism. I would suggest looking up some information on the Qabballah as well as Moses's time in Egypt and the entire book of Revelations. I would definitely look into any occult system with heavy Christian influences. S.L. Macgregor Mathers and Aleister Crowley's early work would be pretty good sources.
>>27012315Those fuckers don't know shit about hospitality
>>27012353That sounds pretty interesting, would they have an idea of what rain was or were the floods the first time?
Just remember, this is what Angels are described as in the Bible.
>>27012348That's like saying there's a u in color.
>>27012405>>27012424So in the antediluvian age these wheels were fucking 900 year old milfs? If I was god I would flood earth too.
>>27012068Actual Christianfag here, may not have the bible memorized but I went to a lot of Sunday School in my childhood.Let's see... A campaign based on the Noah's Ark story *might* be kind of cool, if run correctly.>Tasked by the divine to gather two of every animal and a select number of worthy Humans onto a giant boat before the massive flood hits>Have to journey all across the world to gather up all the animals>Adventures ensue>Time limit ensures constant tensionThen maybe the exodus of the Jews out of Egypt to the Holy Land as a campaign.>Leading a massive convoy through a desert, have to fight threats of hunger and thirst>On top of that parts of the convoy keep turning against the faith, causing your divine to task you with slaughtering them>Also bandit raids and roaming monsters>Campaign ends with a siege against a fortress city sitting between you and the Holy Land, have to march around it with divine artifact while they rain arrows at you to make the walls fall>>27012405That's one of the many types of angels, yeah.
>>27012405>>27012424>>27012435Holy holy holy,Is the Lord God Almighty,Who was,And is,And is to come.
>>27012389The flood was supposedly the first time it had ever rained, which was why everyone thought Noah was crazy for building his ark.Back then water would come up from under the ground, apparently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxATVCWNQNw>Mt. Athos Could be a interesting place to have in a adventure >Spear of DestinyLance that pierced the side of Christ Saint Longinus the man who was said to be the Centurion who did it to see if Christ was dead.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_LonginusTons of legends about him.
>>27012468What is a Well or a Spring
>>27012443not canon according to the pope
>>27012468I think I remember reading a book based around this. But it was really weird, it was a bunch of kids planeswalking and time travelling with the help of these alien angel things. I think the first book had them kill a giant brain. Also unicorns were used for time travel. Not sure what the name was though.
>>27012475Pope is a fag.
>>27012475The pope can fucking suck it.
This is what Jesus is described as in Revelations.
This is a character from the Bible Balaam's donkey
I think a good period with actual combat and adventures that you could research would be the era of the Book of Judges. That's when Samson lived, he was a superpowered warrior who was so strong he could break stone columns with his bare hands. He also had a fondness for prostitutes, shenanigans and random acts of vandalism and violence. If any character in the Bible was a player character, it was Samson.
>>27012554Isn't there a passage that says that there is a sea up to a horse's neck in blood?
Daily reminder from a Jew that Yahweh was a caananite god of warUse that as your basis OP. Kill shit for the favor of the Blood God of Caanan
What about Demon: The Fallen
>>27012270Even if it's not going to be expliticly set in the bible era, http://www.mediafire.com/download/glkf8579j4b76t9/Testament_-_Roleplaying_in_the_Biblical_Era.pdf Testament is going to be your best bet.Hell, you can play a canaanite from Sodom or Gomorragh.
>>27012605I think I recall reading something about Archeologists actually finding the site of Samson's death a while back. Like, two pillars knocked over, tons of dead people, and one guy under the two pillars missing both his eyes. I can't recall the full details, I'm gonna look that up right now.
>>27012652Wouldn't suprise me. There'll probably a number of temples of Melkirth around.
>>27012500This sounds an awful lot like A Stitch in Time.
>>27012652Although then again the OT mentions Samson's family burying his body and I'm not seeing anything, so TVTropes MAY have lied to me.
>>27012694Motherfucker that's it. Thanks man, that's been banging around in my head for a while
>>27012449Man, the one about Noah's Ark could be amazing.>herdan giant animals through narrow passes>fightan storms and predators>redeeman unbelievers>keepan tiny birds safe
>>27012679Melqart, sorry.God of Tyre, known for having twin pillars in his temple.
Have spell that turns people into pillars of salt if they dare to look at you
>>27012405>>27012424>>27012435These are Ophanim, Beryl coloured wheels within wheels which are covered in hundreds of eyes.>>27012451This is a seraph, I think.>>pic relatedThis one is a cherub, presumably with an Ophan above it.Does anyone have any other pics of angels?
>>27012449Actually, freeing the slaves from Egypt in the first place could also make a decent game, if you took some liberties to make it work for a typical PnP party>Party is tasked by their divine to free the race of slaves from a powerful nation>Don't have anywhere near the required strength or manpower to do it by force, have to ask them to let their slaves go or else face the wrath of your divine>Of course they laugh at you and refuse>Divine starts using your party to channel plagues into the nation, each one requires you go to a certain location and do a fancy setup>Meanwhile the nation's leader is sending parties of guards and assassins to try and stop you>Hold out fights while setting up plagues and hiding from the guards amongst the slave population between those fights>Nation's leader finally gives in after last plague kills his first born son>Changes his mind soon after you leave with all the slaves, sends entire army to stop you>Have to cross through a split sea, courtesy of the divine, then hold off the front of the army until the sea collapses on them>>27012718Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking.Basically, OP, you should make an adventure where your party all follow one divine, and are tasked by that divine to do stuff. But unlike typical DnD dieties, the divine in question actually steps in and *gets shit done* from time to time.
>>27012716If they used a tesseract it was a wrinkle in time.
>>27012068Catholicfag here. I suggest, OP, that it might be easier for you and your buds if you don't go with "mythology" in a Christian themed game, considering you aren't knowledgeable with regards to our legends as you admitted. That being said, I suggest you run a game based on the adventures and endeavors of actual Christian warriors. The Crusades are an obvious choice. Additionally, you might do some reading up on King Olaf Tryggvason, Christian king of Norway. Or you could do something with Charlemagne and his Paladins. Maybe El Cid is a possibility, or even the Conquistadors of the New World. You really don't have to look to the Scriptures for adventure inspiration. Just a suggestion. Disregard or utilize at your discretion.
>>27012718Hell, even in a game set afterwards.Imagine Noah's Ark as a dungeon crawl.
>>27012819I googled the name, you got it right. Those books were weird as hell.
>>27012866What's even weirder is that a gradeschooler can read them and understand what's going on. They won't get a sniff of any symbolism or meaning, but they can read it just fine
>>27012834Like exploring the remains of the arc or going through caves slaying lovecraftian horrors so that the moles and the bats and the breakfast cereals will be safe to procreate?
>>27012652I'd be fucking surprised if any 3000 year old remains still had their eyes...
>>27012866I never read them, I just saw a 70s animated movie of it.
Hey OP, does your gameplan include any action in the world of the divine or the abyss of punishment? I mean to say does it have components where players are actively playing their PCs in the afterlife?
>>27012965Take a good look at Ancient Egypt and the shit we have from there. Hell, there's fossilized DINOSAURS that still have some of their skin color visible (Scipionyx IIRC), Coprolites from Ice Age Megafauna can still smell when wet, etc. Organic tissue can be pretty strong assuming there's nothing to decompose it.
>>27012923Was thinking the former.Going through the remains of a giant boat on the top of a mountain, filled with some remnants of the creatures. Almost Barrier Peaks-esque.Hell, you can even fill it with weird animals that biblical literalists claim must have been on the ark. Imagine the opinion a bunch of israelites might have on a Kangaroo, Cassowary or Komodo Dragon.
>>27013029Question: What would stop a spirit from entering a fossil and revitalizing it?Could a spirit of sufficient power do this? If they can, boom, undead become plausible.
>>27012312>Go to a Christian Bookstore>Buy a Biblethere ya go
>>27013074Saying "I'm Christian" is like saying "I like movies".
>>27012591it was a female donkey
>>27013074Whose translation is it?
>>27013071This isn't /x/, go ask them.
>>27013120Most translations I've read are more or less the sameNKJVKJVNIVCEB
>>27013071Nothing in the bible about evil spirits possessing the dead, but it could be probable, I suppose
>>27012652Holy shit, what?! The implications hurt mah brain
>>27013150Remember that the catholics changed their translation to try to imply that their saint worship isn't idolatry.
>>27013166The idea floated into my mind that demons, who's bodies were all destroyed in the flood (if it has already happened), could possess fossils in a last-ditch desperate attempt to live. The dynamic is simple; bodiless beings cannot have sense-sensations (sight, smell, taste, etc), and being without such sensation for very long at all creates psychosis. So the defeated devils are rebelling even harder by possessing dead bodies and fossils in a desperate attempt to stay sane.These are just my ideas, utilize or disregard at your leisure.
>>27012068Dunno if it's been mentioned, OP, but a Children's bible or book of bible stories usually has great hooks, and is broken down into small, understandable modules.
>>27013196>saint worshipRight. We also worship priests and ask them to pray for us.
>>27012068Just read the Mortal Instruments books, OP, and wham bam.
There are a lot of Old Testament apocrypha that would provide you with some good ideas.
If you just want the mythos but aren't setting it in prehistory, you could always check out Engel.
>>27013104There really is just a handful of Christian denominations that are worth differentiating: Catholic, Orthodox, Gnostic, Lutheran, Anglican, and Reformed.And even then, anything worth a read for what OP's asking is covered by the first two of those -Catholic and Orthodox-. The rest is like playing d20 Modern.
>>27013196Oh sure guy just believe whatever your preacher says. It was the Catholic Church who compiled the Scriptures into the Bible in the first place. And how hard is it really to comprehend veneration of Saints? They're simply prime examples of Faithful who we look up to and ask to pray for us in addition to our own prayers. ..... Shit... We're being trolled. Ok, 8/10 on that one mister.
>>27013138The difference between /tg/ and /x/ is that on the latter they actually believe the stuff being discussed is real (or at least work of an alien).
Send your players on a fetch quest to collect Philistine Forskins.
>>27013196>saint worshipSeriously? I didn't think anybody these days believed this was a real thing except for backwoods southern preachers.
>>27013376>It was the Catholic Church who compiled the Scriptures into the Bible in the first place.Oh sure, just believe whatever your priest says. It was the orthodox church, which Catholicism is a heretical spinoff of.
>>27013196>implying the saints wouldn't kick your ass>implying the cult of the superfan isn't awesomeOur Ditka is an Awesome Ditka. Polish Sausage.
>>27013411Unfortunately there are still people who meet and interact with Catholics, and therefore it can't be kept secret.
>>27013376>They're simply prime examples of Faithful who we look up to and ask to pray for us in addition to our own prayers.>also they're dead and we ask by prayingGee, I wonder how people could consider this worship.
>>27012649file seems to be corrupted, going past the cover crashes my pdf reader (preview on a mac). Any other options? thanks
>>27013440Well you just have that banana lodged real REAL firmly in your ass, don't you? Fedora squeezed your brain pretty hard, didn't it?
>>27013440If you ask your friend to pray for a sick family member, are you worshipping your friend?
>Choose denomenation>read up about their beliefs>create settingThat's all you have to do.Personally, I'd go with Orthodoxy, but I'm biased.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fpMYLu26qc
>>27012826>CharlemagneI really like him but I think it's debatable whether or not this Frankish king was really as interested in religion as some things make him out to be.
>>27013463My friend doesn't have a medal with his face on it that's claimed to protect and assist travelers that can be purchased for $19.95.
>>27013461>the only ones who acknowledge catholic heresy are atheistsWhat?
>>27013463No, because you pray TO god, FOR the friend. Not TO a saint asking them to get the friend healed.
>>27013508You read what I posted already. Its not hard to understand. What I don't understand is why this thread has gotten derailed away from OPs original question.Oh I forgot, theres 5001 fedorakult trolls in the thread.
>>27013376I find it amusing how only Catholicism gets this complaint from Protestants.No complaints about the Shi'a and Sufi about it. (Well, not from Protestant christians at least. The Sunni don't look on it fondly)
>>27013420They are basically the same thing. They just vary in the authority of the pope, the death penalty, and some mystical stuff that nobody but monks and theologians cares about.Orthodox patriarchs believe that calling saint reverence is idolatry is childish.
>>27013420The Orthodox church did not at all at the time the Bible was assembled. Read a history book.Heretical spin off indeed... The nerve...
>>27013533Protestants don't seem to care about the Armenian church, the Greek church, or the Coptic church either. Apparently the Catholics are the only ones who revere saints.
>>27013533Well if we're talking about muslims that kind of plays second fiddle to the whole "not recognizing Jesus as divine" thing.
>>27013527You don't pray to the saint to get your fiend healed. You ask the saint to pray on your behalf to God.
>>27013583True. Hell, the Muslims regard the praying to Jesus as just as wrong as praying to any other holy figure.
>>27013440Because it isn't worship. All it is is a prayer relayed through the saint to God.
>>27013547>authority of the popeThat part is the important part.>Orthodox patriarchs believe that calling saint reverence is idolatry is childish.Yes, they too were led astray through splendor and wealth, it just happened later for them. In fact they fought pretty hard to do so. It's called the Iconoclasm and was kind of a big deal.
Can we please get back to gaming?
>>27013618Wait, are you calling iconoclasm the emergence of saint veneraiton, and the increase in icons and such like?
>>27013571>The Orthodox church did not at all at the time the Bible was assembled. Read a history book.The Orthodox and Catholic churches weren't separate, but if you read a history book you'll discover that in fact the bible was assembled in Nicaea, practically a suburb of Byzantium.
>>27013493Work with the legends then. Read the Song of Roland. Much badass source material there for when you want a big battle.
>>27013644I'm calling its resolution a failure to follow the true words of the Bible.
>>27013450Weird, lemmie see what I can find. In the mean time, have the classes.
>>27013505Your friend isn't a zealous, dead, but still extremely powerful Christian.
>>27013505>claimed to protect and assist travelersThat's considered superstition and is prohibited by the Church.Doesn't mean people don't do it, but you're (rightly) complaining about superstitious people, not the beliefs of the Church itself.
>>27013682But Iconoclasm is the destruction of icons, idols, and other depictions of the divine.It's the complete opposite of what you're talking about.
>>27013698http://www.4shared.com/office/_5ADUBn5/Mythic_Vistas_-_Testament_-_Ro.html How about this one, does it work?
>>27012068Christianity mythology ranges from Genesis to the Flood. Unless you are some sort of euphoric faggot who is using it to denigrate my religion, in which case, go fuck yourself with a fedora.Either way, go read the fucking Bible, they're not exactly hard to find. Hell, some people just go around placing bibles in random hotels, or giving them away for free at colleges. You also might want to read the Book of Enoch but that isn't canon in most Christian sects.
>>27013667Nicea which was still under the authority of the Pope in Rome. Orthodoxy wasn't even a thought then.
>>27012117Those girls are long dead and their bodies sodomized.
>>27013682The Orthodox christians still prayed to the Mary, the saints and the angels, they just didn't want to make elaborate religious images.
>>27013729Is there any way to download from 4shared without signing up? If not, no worries, you have been more than helpful, and I hope OP feels the same.
>>27013786>didn't want to make elaborate religious imagesEver seen any if those Icons they make? They're pretty fancy...
>>27012270>>27012312While there are many kinds of Christians, the mainline groupings are: -Roman Catholics-Eastern Orthodox-ProtestantWhat unifies them as mainline is their use of a mostly similar Bible. Protestants are somewhat stricter about what's considered Biblical canon and remove the books known as the "apocrypha"; most of the books in this category have less corroboration than the rest. Note that Protestant's don't necessarily believe these books are *false* or *bad* (although ignorant Protestants might be confused about this point), just that they lack the same sort of backing and grounding that the other books of the Bible do.The vast, vast majority of Christian groups fall under one of these categories.Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Universal Unitarians, etc. are usually grouped under the Christian umbrella but are somewhat more "fringe" due to their use of additional books, often written by their sect's founder, or supposedly transmitted to their sect's founder by God (such as the Book of Mormon).
>>27013729http://www.mediafire.com/download/glkf8579j4b76t9/Testament_-_Roleplaying_in_the_Biblical_Era.pdfI have it if that don't work.
>>27013894I'd argue at this juncture that you have Mainline Protestant and Evangelical Protestant, as the two are very, very different nowadays.
>>27013846Ah right, sorry, not that I know of.
>>27012312>>27013894And while Christians may quibble over the "scope" of the canon, and how literally to interpret it, you would be hard-pressed to find any mainline Christian groups that would not consider the core books (the Old and New Testaments minus the apocryphal writings) Biblical canon. Very few would disagree on that bare minimum.
>>27012638A Jew by ethnicity perhaps, but not a Jew by religion. A true jew would recognize that the names we give to God are illusory and are merely names we give to Him.
>>27013917I wouldn't say "fundamentalist" Protestants are that different. I hesitate to use the term Evangelical, because it connotes a very different history and denomination. Simply because a fundamentalist church has the term Evangelical in their name does not make them Evangelical, much like how a church with Baptist in their name doesn't necessarily have to be Baptist - it's what members practice that counts. And even in this case, while fundamentalists may take the Bible at face value and advocate a very heavy-handed application of principles, they still fundamentally do not believe in a different canon or basic set of doctrines than "mainline" Protestants - they still believe equally in the divine nature of Jesus, the necessity of his sacrifice for the human race, etc.
Read up on Samson, that mofo killed a thousand men with the jaw bone of a donkey. The old testament is pretty much Megaviolence: The Religion disregarding Psalms or watch some of those movies Ned Flanders made. They're spot on.I'm sure someone has already mentioned the one about God having bears murderamage at some kids because they teased a bald guy.
>>27013074You can buy Bibles at regular bookstores as well.
>>27013998>they still believe equally in the divine nature of Jesus, the necessity of his sacrifice for the human race, etc.Same with all Christian faiths. That's what makes them Christian. But the huge doctrinal and dogmatic differences between, say, a mainline Episcopalian and a fundamentalist Southern Baptist are about as similar in practice as the differences between Protestants and Eastern Orthodoxy.
>>27013928I think i can open the pdf in a cbr reader. no worries, and thanks again
>>27014020>SamsonChuck Norris? Never heard of him.
>>27013745This is correct. Since the Great Schism didn't happen until ~1053 it doesn't make any sense to differentiate between Catholic and Orthodox until after that point. Granted, there were differences in tradition and stuff, and political and geographical issues played a part in it, but, as far as I'm aware, both Catholic and Orthodox churches consider the first seven Ecumenical Councils equally valid. You can't really consider the churches separate until 869 at earliest.>>27013998>they still fundamentally do not believe in a different canon or basic set of doctrines than "mainline" ProtestantsThis is more or less correct, unless OP wants to get an education in theology. Since the objective is to run a game "based on" Christian mythology, you wouldn't be greatly interested in theology... and if you find a discrepancy between the various denominations of Christianity, just choose one you like, because no matter what you do SOMEONE will disagree.
>>27014084What are the differences?
>>27014084To be fair, there are so many hundreds of Protestant sects that you can't really keep track of what each denomination believes. It's better to just group them as 'Protestant.'
>>27013533>>27013581This is mainly because there's a lot of bad blood historically between Protestant and Catholic nations.From the standpoint of the religious, heathens are just fine - after all, they're a source of converts. You wouldn't expect them to adhere to your rules, because common sense tells you that they believe in a completely different set of rules. You may think those rules are wrong, and may do horrible or wonderful things to get them to stop believing in them, but anyone with a gram of common sense recognizes that they aren't beholden to high standards because they're ignorant.Apostates and heretics, however, are something much worse, if you are religious. They are people who have heard your religion and have consciously discarded it. With a heathen the possibility of reconciliation/conversion exists. With an apostate this is not a possibility, due to their repudiation!If you are a cynic and believe in realpolitik applications of religion, heretics are far more dangerous because they represent an internal threat to the religion that buttresses your reign.Consequently apostates and heretics get far, far more attention, regardless of whether you are a true believer or a cynical manipulator who is using religion. If you look at the history of the Crusades, while many *big* Crusades were declared against nominally Islamic kingdoms (because of the cost to get there), far more Crusades were declared against heretical sects.
>>27014127Monasticism, for one.There's a lot of theological differences, but there's one. Does that satisfy you?
>>27013196We did not change a damn thing, you revisionist protestant whore. You are the assholes who threw accuracy out the goddamn window for flowery language with the KJV. It was Martin Luther's translation where he outright changed the wording in scripture to support his Salvation through Faith Alone doctrine. And furthermore, we do not worship the saints, we venerate them. As for the intercession of the saints, it is merely asking the saint to put in a good word with the Lord for you. I suppose asking your fellow congregants to pray for you or your loved ones is idolatrous to you.
>>27013908Linking for >>27013846Using an image so they will notice the post. Attractive female increases chance of noticing.
>>27014191calm down, man. Your anger may be righteous, but it may not be the best option in this situation.
>>27013203What? Devils and demons are by their very nature metaphysical beings not limited by flesh, and by our perspective they would already qualify as insane by rebelling against God. Also, what the fuck is this about fossils being possessed? Take your meds.
>>27013719Yes. The Iconoclasts lost.
>>27014127The differences can be anywhere as "insignificant" as the proper method of baptizing a person (do you dunk just the head? The whole body? Sprinkle some water?).On the extreme end some "denominations" such as Mormons believe in an entirely different Biblical canon (a quick summary is that they believe after his resurrection, Jesus again came to 18th century American and appeared to their founder Joseph Smith, and gave him two golden discs with a brand new Scripture on it)."Protestant", consequently, generally refers to a loose grouping of denominations that do not recognize the authority of the Pope as God's representative but rather the authority of a common "Protestant Bible". There are often small differences, like the aforementioned baptism practice.
>>27014177I was hoping for a bit more.For example I know that the main difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is the primacy of the Pope and the nature of the trinity. Are the differences between Evangelism and Anglicism similar or is it more about political attitudes?
>>27014191>>27014244Hardly matters at this point, brothers. The heretic fool appears to have defenestrated himself from the thread.
>>27014191>>27013196It's important to remember that the Protestant Reformation was not simply a reaction to doctrine but rather the actual practice of the Catholic Church - recall in the middle ages the Catholic Church was a major force in power politics, maintaining it's own army and frequently engaged in many corrupt practices like the selling of offices.While Luther's rallying cry was "Sola Scriptura", the main target of the Reformation was generally these corrupt practices, such as the selling of offices and indulgences.
>>27014232that file won't open for me in preview either but I think I solved it (see >>27014098)thanks again!
>>27013249The Mortal Instruments is the stupidest fucking series I've ever read. Let me spoil it for you: God was really Old Man Withers all along.
>>27014191>I suppose asking your fellow congregants to pray for you or your loved ones is idolatrous to you.It is if you make graven images of them.
>>27014322Better get rid of your photographs then.
>>27014270See >>27014258. There's quite a few differences between Evangelicalism and Anglicism (and in fact, recent developments such as rulings on homosexuality are beginning to widen the breach between the two), but overall the difference between Protestant sects has historically been more of administrative, aesthetic, and practical differences (do we use Latin in the service? Should the pastor/priest wear a robe? etc.) rather than deeply doctrinal.Again though, do note that this is changing somewhat, especially in regards to sexual identity issues.
>>27014322What, are pictures of your family and deceased relatives graven images now?
>>27014322Ah, so you're complaining not about the veneration itself, but the icons.That's a bit different, and makes more sense.
>>27014372Institutionalized veneration is stupid too, and there are plenty of Catholics who do outright worship, and only the strangest, like Santa Muerte, are actually deemed heretical.
>>27013731>EnochYeah, the Book of Enoch was noncanonical even back before Christianity was a thing, but it's still a fascinating piece of apocalyptic literature.
>>27014423>and there are plenty of Catholics who do outright worshipWhat? No.Man, seriously, there is an actual theological difference between worship and veneration. "Veneration" is admiring the saints as role models for living a christian life and asking them to do you a solid since they're already in good with the main man God.
>>27013420This is like claiming the British split off from America.
Huh, a company actually did magazines and stuff with extra info for testament, neat. Feats for each of the 12 tribes.
>>27014453And intercessory prayer isn't praying TO the saint, it's asking the saint politely to throw their weight behind your prayer for X.
>>27014486Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at.
>>27014372>>27014423They had this conversation at the Second Council of Nicaea in 787...>It was determined that "As the sacred and life-giving cross is everywhere set up as a symbol, so also should the images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the holy angels, as well as those of the saints and other pious and holy men be embodied in the manufacture of sacred vessels, tapestries, vestments, etc., and exhibited on the walls of churches, in the homes, and in all conspicuous places, by the roadside and everywhere, to be revered by all who might see them. For the more they are contemplated, the more they move to fervent memory of their prototypes. Therefore, it is proper to accord to them a fervent and reverent adoration, not, however, the veritable worship which, according to our faith, belongs to the Divine Being alone — for the honor accorded to the image passes over to its prototype, and whoever adores the image adores in it the reality of what is there represented.">not, however, the veritable worship which, according to our faith, belongs to the Divine Being aloneThe guy complaining about "worshiping graven images" is just ignorant. I think we can all agree that the ruling of this council stand as official Church doctrine to this day both in Catholicism and in Orthodoxy.Anyone who DOES worship the images themselves is wrong, according to Church doctrine.
>>27014453So under Catholic theology, God doesn't know you asked them to ask, and therefore thinks "gosh, this cool guy asked me instead of that dipshit who doesn't repent his sins, so I'll go with it" because apparently now he's not omniscient and doesn't know it was your idea?
>>27014474The British split from Americans by staying home, just as the Orthodox split from Catholic by staying true to the scriptures.
>>27014513Yeah, of course, it's not unknown for people to be ignorant of the history of their faith.And I think there are some non-nicean Christians, but they're not exactly the standard.
>>27014486So, who actually hears and receives the prayer then, if not the saint? Are you still praying to God? So you say "hey God, tell this saint I said to ask you to do this"?
>>27014522No, it's more of a personal thing, for people who are uncomfortable contacting God directly, they can say "oh hey, this guy was in a similar situation to what I'm having trouble with now, I'll ask him to put in a good word to God to help me out because he understands what I'm going through".
>>27013894all sects have canon and apocrypha. The protestants are as strict as the others, in fact they're less strict given the attitudes of some of the congregations are a sect unto themselves.
>>27012068Book of Judges, by God Almighty run them through a campaign set in the book of Judges.12 And the people of Israel again did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord strengthened Eglon the king of Moab against Israel, because they had done what was evil in the sight of the Lord. 13 He gathered to himself the Ammonites and the Amalekites, and went and defeated Israel. And they took possession of the city of palms. 14 And the people of Israel served Eglon the king of Moab for eighteen years.15 Then the people of Israel cried out to the Lord, and the Lord raised up for them a deliverer, Ehud, the son of Gera, the Benjaminite, a left-handed man. The people of Israel sent tribute by him to Eglon the king of Moab. 16 And Ehud made for himself a sword with two edges, a cubit[a] in length, and he bound it on his right thigh under his clothes. 17 And he presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab. Now Eglon was a very fat man. 18 And when Ehud had finished presenting the tribute, he sent away the people who carried the tribute. 19 But he himself turned back at the idols near Gilgal and said, “I have a secret message for you, O king.” And he commanded, “Silence.” And all his attendants went out from his presence. 20 And Ehud came to him as he was sitting alone in his cool roof chamber. And Ehud said, “I have a message from God for you.” And he arose from his seat. 21 And Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly. 22 And the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not pull the sword out of his belly; and the excrement came out. 23 Then Ehud went out into the porch[b] and closed the doors of the roof chamber behind him and locked them.
>>27014453Honestly this entire conversation that is going on about this is just caused by differing perspectives on how much is too close to Idolatry so there really is no way to get you two to agree.
>>27014513>the images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the holy angels, as well as those of the saints and other pious and holy men be embodied in the manufacture of sacred vessels, tapestries, vestments, etc., and exhibited on the walls of churches, in the homes, and in all conspicuous places, by the roadside and everywhere, to be revered by all who might see them. For the more they are contemplated, the more they move to fervent memory of their prototypes.Too bad this is the exact opposite of what the Bible said on the matter.
>>27014522Not exactly. It's saying that dude is in good with God, so dude's gonna say, "Hey, y'know how Bitchtits McGee wants cured of plague? Well he's a pretty stand up guy. I think you should hook him up. Whaddaya say?"
>>27014589Yeah, pretty much. I can cite official church teaching, but it doesn't help much if the other person just goes "no, that's wrong and doesn't make any sense". Can't get much clearer of an explicit explanation than what's actually in the Catechism.
>>27014564It's more "hey Saint, I'm going to pray to God now, and It'd be really nice if you were to pray along with me."
>>27014564An intercessory prayer? It's a little of both. You're petitioning God, but you're asking the saint to throw weight behind it. You're technically talking to both, and just how telephone-game it is comes down to a good ol' fashioned bible fight.
>>27014596So it's lobbying and sycophantism, like Congress. And the Catholic Church thinks this is a divinely designed system, or one that God would even tolerate in His kingdom?
Huh.....Apparently Presbyterians believe that dying inside a house, traps your soul in the ceiling for all eternity.
>>27014613Catechism < Bible
>>27014648The fucking shit? Citation, please?
>>27014613Don't be an ass about it. You both need to grow up.
>>27014591You're talking about the whole 10 commandments thing?Well, by that standard, there's no problem in worshipping other people in addition to God.
>>27014664Right, which is why Jesus is fine.
>>27014661"Grow up" may have been a little too strong a wording. I apologize if I have offended.
If we're talking about fucked up Catholic practices, what's with them selling little candles in their churches? Isn't that pretty much exactly what Jesus flipped a table over?
>>27014589I remember my dad for instance. Fairly hardcore protestant. Guy loves Catholics and would pray for them any time at any ones request. But he still thinks that Saints are toeing the line since to him there is no need to go though indirect channels to talk to god.
>>27014513This is dependent on if we're talking about traditional catholocism or South American catholocism. South American (and Mexican) Catholics to to cling very strongly to their pagan herritage in practice if not in name. The growing popularity of false gods like Santa Muerte is strong enough evidence for that as well as their almost unabashed deificiation of Mary, which even though catholics venerate mary more than any protestant would via that notion of Hyper-Dulia I doubt any European or American catholic would be at all happy to show Mary the kind of honor they do across the hispanic world.
>>27014642Not just Catholics, but also the Orthodox Christians, the Coptic Christians, the Armenian Christians, and the Ethiopian Christians.It's how things have been done since ancient times.
>>27014657God's revelation to his people didn't stop with the books of the Bible, hell, the Bible in its current canonical form wasn't created until around 300 AD. The Catholic church's tradition is merely God continuing to reveal himself over two millenia.So in other words, taking one over the other is silly because both are two parts of God's revelation to the church on earth.
>>27014540Your example is as bad as your lack of evidence to support your claims. Quit trying to save face already.
>>27014680Yeah, which would be important for all the different sects before Nicea. Given before then it wasn't universally accepted that Jesus and God were the same entity.
>>27014648>implying Presbyterians know how to write.
>>27014084To me an episcopalian has more in common with Snake Handlers when it comes to being "mainline" as they both are fast and loose with the Bible. It's just that the quasi-Anglicans simply disregard the Word of God, and the Snake Handlers have gone too blind from moonshine/snake venom to read it.
>>27014682Maybe a little, but yeah I was being a bit presumptive there. I apologize too.
>>27014659Citation is my Presbyterian friend IRL. Not gonna look it up myself though, just in case he is wrong and I have to stop laughing.
>>27014697Come to think of it, I have no idea the theology behind that.
>>27014648Sounds as reasonable as the rest of their beliefs
>>27014737I admit to not knowing much specifically about Presbyterian teachings, but that just seems ESPECIALLY weird.
>>27014648Even if the house as one of those vents to let the heat out?
>>27014697It was more money lending.Usury is a major sin. Think more like predatory loan sharks being set up in your neighbourhood church. (Or for people in the UK, see the latest struggle between the CoE and Wonga)
>>27014613The issue is if there is a mediator between man and God other than Jesus Christ, scripture is clear there is not. Tacking on any middleman is going to take Glory away from Christ which is the spirit of idolatry if it is not the letter.
>>27014701To be fair, it's not like Catholics don't venerate Mary. Catholics all over the world pray to Mary every Sunday. It's part of Mass. The Hail Mary is the second most popular prayer among Catholics second only to the Lord's Prayer.
>>27014727And to me, a Southern Baptist is a filthy Paulite who has completely disregarded Jesus, and is in the same tier as Mormons and Christian Scientists.
>>27014758Maybe it's only trapped until the house falls apart over time. >Ceiling souls are Presbyterian purgatory
>>27014697Presumably those donations go to charity instead of le happy merchant's bank account.
>>27014701Funny how South and Central America are pretty much the only areas with large populations of devout Catholicism, besides Poland.
>>27014764All they were doing was giving one kind of coin in exchange for another, on the premise that it was a more holy sacrifice. The Bible doesn't mention money lending, only money changing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQwFolbxxYQuest with the greatest follow Jesus and God ever knew
>>27014722It still isn't universally accepted because the orthodox position is that God is a Trinity of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, all one Being, three distinct Persons. The Son is a different person from the Father as much as I am a different erson from you, however where you and I also have distinct "beingness" The Father Son and Spirit have the same.
>>27014258I thought Mormons believed Jesus was rescued by angels before dying and whisked away to Arizona.
>>27014782Whereas the rest of the saints get "douleia" or "honor" as veneration, Mary gets "HYPERdouleia" She is the number one saint, the highest any human being has ever been raised by the divine, assumed body and soul into heaven. She's kind of a big deal.>pray to MaryNo, pray for Mary's intercession as the Mother of God. there's a difference. I said she gets "hyperdouleia", not "latreia" (adoration/worship).
>>27014786I forgot the punchline:That's part of why Protestantism is so fractured, because all sects believe THEY'RE behaving in the right ways, and EVERYBODY ELSE is bordering on heresy.
>>27014808Hence the latest Pope, Francis the "wait, did he really just do that?"
>>27014786>PauliteWhat is this? Google tells me Ron Paul but I suspect that's not what you mean.
St. Christopher was a skull-splitting Barbarian who was only interested in serving the strongest lord. He started out as a thug working for devil-worshipping bandits, but the bandit freaked out about a shrine, and Chris thought "hey, God scares this guy, I should go find god". so he found a hermit who taught Christopher about god, how god was right 'n proppa orky (biggest, toughest, etc) but also forgiving and loving, and Chris experienced a miracle, and he got sainted. He's pretty damn interesting, and it's midnight here.
I always liked that scene in that trippy movie "Valhala" The Viking warriors are talking about Christianity and saying "you can't deal with these Christians. The only language they speak is money..... Did you know that they eat their gods flesh and drink his blood? And they call us barbarians...""Do not worry too much brother, for they have but one god, an we have many!"Kinda a cool perspective.
>>27014802Pretty sure they go to le happy bishop's expense account.
>>27014697I'm Orthodox. the justification I've heard a couple of time is that worshippers used to make and bring their own candles to church and leave coins at the bottom of these candles as a donation. The church would then collect the coins once the candles were burned up.After people stopped making their own candles, churches started selling them to continue this practice of donation. There's still a plate, but buying a candle is considered a donation. Actually, the church I attend would not be breaking even were it not for the candles. Unlike a lot of protestant churches (or is that just a stereotype?), we don't exactly rake in money.Symbolism of candles is a whole different thing, so there's a reason for it being candles specifically.
>>27014875Someone who follows the teachings of Paul of Tarsus above the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
>>27014841There's a penny presser in Il Duormo. Should I have flipped that when I was there?
>>27014875it's a derogatory term for Christians that place greater emphasis on the teachings of Saul of Tarsus (Paul the Apostle) than on those of Christ himself.
>>27014865Actually what he's preaching for the most part is what Pope Benedict before him wrote in a lot of his encyclicals and teachings. It's just the general populace outside of the Church is more inclined to listen to Francis because of where he comes from and the fact that he walks the walk in terms of humility and openness much better than his predecessors.
>>27014737>>27014754I'm not a Presbyterian but I do align very close to them theologically (i.e. the Calvinist tradition) and I have to say that I've never heard of anything remotely similar to that. It was probably something his friend misunderstood such as a quote from an early Presbyterian he missed the point of, alternatively it was something early presbyterians latched onto but was abandoned after it was decided to be sufficiently silly to be ignored.The presbyterians were Scottish originally so it's no surprise to me that they might be a bit off base by nature, you know how Scotts are.
>>27014862So it's like if the neighbor's kid does something you don't like and you go to his mom and say "you tell your boy..."
>>27014886>is that just a stereotypeYes. For every megachurch and Creeflo Dollar, there are ten churches that are in the red or shutting doors.
>>27014883Could be worse, they could be going to fix the church roof.
>>27014879There's a lot of awesome saints if you poke around a bit. Some of the older ones are more attributed to folklore, but they're still damn good legends regardless.
>>27014940A lot of the problem with the Catholic churches is that there's too few priests to go around now, and a lot of the ones that are currently being relied on to run two or three churches at once are retiring.
>>27014863Real fun part is asking your garden variety protestant to explain their particular sect.Most people don't understand what really differentiates their bible-reading-jesus-worship from their neighbor's bible-reading-jesus-worship.
>>27014897>>27014905>people who follow a Pope accusing anyone else of putting Paul's teachings above Jesus'Where's the logic here?
>>27014879St. Vladimir (Vladimir the Great) was more or less the same, except he actively persecuted Christians before converting.
>>27014875People who think that Paul and Jesus contradict eachother and shouldn't be harmonized with eachother to give us a greater scope of understanding in God's revelation like to make fun of people who take Paul seriously and as an author of Scripture.It makes no sense to me as if the Bible is divinely inspired and scripture is "God Breathed" then anything Paul wrote that is scritpure would just be as definitive as anything John wrote as a scripture. The Gospels weren't written by Jesus so emphasizing the Gospels over the toher books of the New Testament is saying "Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were all especially inspired and Paul was only a little inspired". It's a nonsensical position that borders on heretical.
>>27014270There is more to protestantism than Anglicanism and Evangelism. In fact I'd divide it into Lutheranism, Reformism, Calvinism, Anabaptism, Anglicanism, and a million fucking splinter groups.
>>27015012So did Paul/Saul.
>>27014982It's also that urban congregations that were traditionally white Catholic minorities (Irish, Italians, Germans) are aging and dying, and urban blacks are overwhelmingly Protestant. In that case, the diocese is praying that Latinos move in instead.>>27014990>garden variety protestantThese are called "country club Christians". They belong to a church because it's the socio-communal thing to do.>>27015000>implying I'm Catholic>*laughingsaints.png*
>>27015012Awesome saint stories? You don't get much better than this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe
>>27015018"Love thy neighbor" and "hate dem gays" is directly contradictory.
>>27015100There's a difference between "hating people" and "hating people's actions."I have personally found it to be a good life skill to differentiate the two.
>>27015100Which is Catholics (I can't speak for Protestant teachings on this as a whole) DON'T hate gays, being gay isn't inherently evil.It's just having gay sex is equivalent to any other kind of adulterous sex between heterosexuals so it's a big no-no.
You know, this is why I like /tg/.For all the vehemence, this is still one of the most civil discussions about religion you'll find on the Internet. Mainly because we're more likely to read and reference things.
>>27015143Yeah, that's what I've found too. Jack Chick threads over in /co/ tend to be pretty chill too because it gives EVERYONE a target to make fun of, but you guys are much more well-read and knowledgeable on these subjects.
>>27015143Because it's less about personal opinions and more about opinions that people have in general. The former is generally why I dislike discussing religion.I'm not here to preach to anyone to listen to the Second Council of Nicea, but I will tell you how it went down and how it influences current beliefs. You can think of it what you will, but you can't dispute what happened there.
>>27015040> There is more to protestantism thanHere, here, I'm glad somebody recognizes that we aren't a hivemind with any central authority to speak of.Though a few points. Being Reformed and being a Calvinist are mostly synonymous,I don't really know of any Reformed churches that aren't Calvinists Calvinism isn't a tradition of Denominations so much as it's a theological perspective with "Reformed" being the tradition of denomoniations that fall into that theological perspective.The way I'd seperate Protestantism into categories is Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican/Episcopal, Anabaptist, Wesleyan and Evangelical. Hussite and related churches across the Czech republic, Germany and all about in the old region of Bohemia would be hard to classify. Jan Huss was one of those Pre-Luther proto-Reformers that people tend to forget existed and don't really fit well into the traditional Narrative of Church history. I'd call them Protestant because of similar historical/geographic origins aswellas similar doctrinal beliefs but they stand on their own.Lutheranism is catholic flavored Protestantism since Luther didn't have much distate for the Form of the church only it's positions on key issues.Reformed chruches are your Presbyterians, Baptists (historically but Baptists tend to actually be very anti-calvinist in the modern day) and all of old American denominations.Anglicans/Episcopals and whatever they call themselves in Australia is technically pre-reformation and has allot of catholic trappings, due to it being founded not really on any grounds other than the rights of divorce. The Anglican branch is another wird one that sort of stands on its own outside the other traditions.Anabaptists are your Mennonites and related groups wehich include the Amish and the Hutterites. They are as far as I am aware mostly found across norther Germany and the Netherlands.
>>27015292Yeah, I don't think there's more than 1-2 people in the thread that are arguing their individual beliefs. Everyone else is discussing religion in the analytical context. Which is why it's so sedate.
>>27015328Seriously, look at these two posts:>>27014682>>27014731You won't see anything like that on any other board in 4chan.
>>27014540Spoken like a fucking madman, true to form.
>>27015294The Wesleyan tradition came about as a response to the Reformed/Calvinist positions and exist because they aren't Calvinists, They are also often called Arminians. I believe the largest denomination in this camp is the Methodist church which was founded by Wesley if I haven't forgotten everything I know about Church history (which I might have, I haven't done much reading in a long while) The Evangelicals are your traditional Fundamentalist and currently I would include Baptists in this category. Evangelicals came about at the turn of the 20th century and embraced Wesleyan/Armenian theology and it's out of this Evangelical revolution that you get modern liberal theology (not saying evangelicals believe in liberal theology just that they fostered it's creation the same way that Calvinism fostered Puritanism) Almost all modern American churches are Evangelical in nature though there are plenty across Europe as well. Evangelicalism is marked by it's belief in strict fundamentalism which is to be understood literally as "going back to the basics", the fundamentals. It tends to reject systematic or complex theological frameworks like the Reformed positions for appearently complicating the bible and erecting frameworks God didn't put in the Bible. You'll often see a very strong emphasis from Evangelicals against "man-made" doctrines due to that same fundamentalist ideology of keeping the bible as uninterpreted by extreneous theological input.I hope that all of my summeries were fair and accurate and I do encourage anyone who can correct me to correct me, I'm not wrong on purpose just by accident of being human.
>>27012473there's also the Wandering Jew, and Cain.not the oWOD Caine, but i have read some of the Gnostic texts that claimed Cain survived everything since being marked by god, and is still walking the earth, miserable as shit, and does random acts of strangeness, like the supposed disappearing priest from a few weeks ago on the news. he also had showed up during the world wars, and just walked up to rangers, and handed them troop movement orders, and when they turned around to detain him, he was gone, without a trace. in a muddy field. St. Thomas the doubter, who according to the gospel of Thomas was jesus's twin brother, and was the apostle sent to unto asia, and was supposedly buried in india.he got into a isiah style rap battle with hindus and buddhist monks, and won.then there's the heresy about john the baptist's talking head hanging around with a fallen angel who supposedly were found by the Templar's who listened to it when it told them where the treasures of king David and Solomon were, and the ARK.and all that FUCKING BATSHIT CRAZY stories about Solomon, and how he bound demons and shit to his will, after god gave him total wisdom, and built the temple, and fought a bunch of monsters innadesert.theres also the jewish version of lilith. shes still supposed to be around too. she fucked all the demons and fallen angels and is the mother of all monsters from the old testament.
>>27012500its a madeline le'engel book, it takes place after a wrinkle in time.
>>27014642No, it's like asking your congregation to say a prayer for you or your loved one. You are so full of hate, you will rework any explanation into one that justifies your continued hate. Cast the scales from your eyes!
>>27014711Let's not go nuts here. The catechism is draws from and is rooted in the Scriptures.
>>27015669I can't, there's a log in the way.
>>27014782Yeah, but sometimes I think some of my fellow "catholic" south american friends might have crossed the line between veneration and worship a long time ago.
Also just to keep this thread /tg/ related I really reccomend mining the minor prophets for quotes for your clerics to use when doling out righteous fury against the wicked.> “I overthrew some of you,> as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,> and you were as a brand[b] plucked out of the burning;> yet you did not return to me,”> declares the Lord.> “Therefore thus I will do to you, O Israel;> because I will do this to you,> prepare to meet your God, O Israel!> For behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind,> and declares to man what is his thought,> who makes the morning darkness,> and treads on the heights of the earth—> the Lord, the God of hosts, is his name!
>>27014808And as such, you'll run into the same problem the Protestants have in places like America. In that they are so populous that you inevitably get people who can't seem to get with the fucking program and have a bunch of fucking crazy beliefs that might deviate into the heretical.
>>27015712Well yes, that's what I was trying to get at with that statement. The Church's teachings grow out scripture, but it's those same teachings that illustrate how the Church should interpret the scripture itself.
>>27015124Protestants don't either. It's just Westboro baptists and other similarly (though generally to a lesser degree) crazy folks who do.
>>27014875paul was the original FOREVER ALONE misogynist closet case, who would piss everyone off by being a fucking prick, and turning everyone against each other for his own benefit, since as he saw it was the true prophet of christ.
>>27015758Eh, there's always folkloric interpretations of systems of faith that rely more heavily on traditional mystical interpretations rather than the more abstract academic distinctions that church catechism takes.
>>27015810Yeah, that's why I didn't want to group Protestants into one big lump on this topic since there's got to be splinter churches out there who actually do hate gays. American Protestantism is weird, it's so much more focused around what pastor is leading the congregation as opposed to any sort of standardized, "official" theology, and if you don't like what the guy at your church is saying, you shop around until you find one you DO, or just say "well I'll just make my own church! With blackjack! And hookers!" and then move down a block and build a new church building.
>>27014982I hear Pope Francis wants to make the priests able to marry again. I'd seriously consider becoming a priest if that were the case.
>>27015875It's mostly a symptom of "We all agree the Catholics did it wrong, let's do the opposite of what they did, that'd be a step in the right direction"Which means that if the Catholics had one big unified face the protestant movements wouldn't. In a way it can be helpful as it prevents any monopoly over protestantism and if you think the denomination you belong to has gone full heretic you can abandon it and try and rally the faithful to rebuild.
>>27015100We hate the sin and not the sinner. Well, some people hate the sinner, but they aren't supposed to.
>>27015929I didn't hear anything about that. They may be looking at the requirements for deacons again or the rules regarding previously-married men becoming priests.
>>27015974God hates the sinner though.
>>27015958Yeah, but you'd think that after 5 or 6 generations of new churches forming you would gain some self-awareness and think that starting a new church might be an exercise in futility. If none of the other previous splinter groups got it right, why would a new one?
>>27015758Well, my experience is with Mexican Catholics, so perhaps this is why I perceive Catholicism as worshiping saints. Of course, they are the majority of Catholics now.
>>27015987What? No. What kind of theology did you get that from?
>>27015294Reformism and Calvinism were and technically still are two different positions. I can't remember what the theological differences are, because it's midnight and I need to get some sleep.
>>27012068OP, this thread may be very relevant to your interest. http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12516400/#12519741
>>27015294Reformist is a protestant sect different from Lutherans and Calvinists. It's one of those things where they needed a name, and they also sprung up around the time of the reformation, but they didn't have one central luminary they could point to even though they were distinct from Lutherans, Calvinists, and Anabaptists, so people just said, "Fuck it, we are/those heretics are reformists."
>>27015929orthodox christians can enter the deaconite and priesthood if they are married, but bishops must be monks, and monks cannot marry.
So been looking through various Testament extras and such like, and in one of the magazine articles (I think it was a conversion from 3e to 3.5) it introduces a clerical spell that calls God's voice.It can turn people to salt.
>>27015875What's weird about that? Why wouldn't you want to do your best to avoid false prophets?
>>27012826>actual Christian warriors>anything after 1054
>>27015987No he does not. God loves you and wishes you would do the right thing. Deus caritas est.
>>27016198There's plenty of military people who are notable saints. Shit, just look at St. Ignatius of Loyola.
>>27016006Mexicans are a whole different breed. The whole of Latin America aren't chicano drug mules from Chihuahua to the Falklands.
>A religious argument... on the Internet... that hasn't degenerated into a shitstorm./tg/, this might actually be a miracle. Beat that Reddit!
>>27014886Pretty much a stereotype, but seeing how televangelists get a lot more media attention than Father Samuel and the 5th Street Methodist Church, I can see how it would seem otherwise.
>>27016008The Bible for one.Pslam 5:4-6> For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;> evil may not dwell with you.> The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;> you hate all evildoers.> You destroy those who speak lies;> the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.Psalm 11:4-7> The Lord is in his holy temple;> the Lord's throne is in heaven;> his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man.> The Lord tests the righteous,> but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.> Let him rain coals on the wicked;> fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.> For the Lord is righteous;> he loves righteous deeds;> the upright shall behold his face.Why is sin so bad? Why do the unrepentant go to Hell? Because God abhors and hates sin and as a God of justice desires to see wickedness overthrown and punished. Do deny that God hates sin and sinner alike is to rob the Cross of all it's meaning. Christ became a curse, became Anathema to the Lord of Lords to be the substitute for sinners and suffer the wrath of God for them. God is love, yes, but we would look rightfully at a person who says "I think child molestation is wrong but I don't have any ill will for child molestors" as having something fundamentally wrong with them.
>>27016344>Do deny that God hates sin and sinner alike is to rob the Cross of all it's meaningGod hates SIN, but also loves humanity and so offered us a chance of salvation to rejoin him in heaven. People can choose to sin, but God never hates them even then, always wanting his people to come back to him instead. Because all people are still human beings and are still made in his own image, even if they squander that gift and their souls in sin.
>>27012965Didn't the poster just say he was missing his eyes?Seriously, some people never listen.
>>27014591The wording on this quote is a bit suspect, the actual concept is that the "honour given to the icon passes on to the prototype". Translation issues mess things up, but the term "worship" doesn't apply to saints, you'd use "venerate".
>>27016435yeah, the actual greek words one Anon goes into up here: >>27014862
>>27016084>>27016016the problem with this statement though is I am Reformed and as long as I have been that has meant Calvinist. I mean certainly my denomination didn't some straight out of Geneva in an ubroken chain of succession but Reformed theology is the blanket term for those people who derive their doctrinal beliefs from Calvin and his successors. The Presbyterians ARE Calvinists, they were fathered by Knox but Knox was a personal acquaintance of Calvins and learned from him. The Dutch reformed church was founded by Calvin but it is a Calvinist denomination. To be reformed is to be Calvinist. That doesn't mean that Calvin founded every Reformed denomination but he is a (if not THE) figure head for the Non-Lutheran reformation.
More REAL angel pics?
>>27016393> God never hates them even thenI quoted scripture, it clearly says that God hates evil-doers, not just evil but the doers of evil also. Explain to me ho wmy interpretation is wrong here and show me where the Bible outlines that God does not hate sinners in contrast. If you're God is not the God of scripture you aren't a Christian plain and simple.> Because all people are still human beingsAnd God is God, his ways are beyond ours, what is Man to Him? We are rolling around in our filth shrieking that he has no place in our lives and we have no love for his law or his justice. Adam was made in God's image, We inheret from Adam that image, however because of the fall that image is ruined and marred, it is an abomination and perversion of the character of God. From the first Adam we inherit death, and the curse of death. From the second Adam, Christ, we inherit life and it is not until we are in Christ do we become pleasing to God because our Sin nature and our Sins both have been wiped away and we've been made anew. Why would Christ have to die for sinners if God did not hate sinners?
>>27016105I've always found that ludicrous, since first epistle to Timothy basicly says a bishop must have a single wife and children, otherwise he's a shit caretaker.
>>27016450Yeah, saw that, I just knee-jerked it in quick reply because it's a pet peeve.
>>27016344Psalter translations are pretty inconsistent, they're also poetic and not exactly doctrinal.
>>27016785Well, bishops are necessarily church leaders, so I think the justification for them being unwed is something along the lines of "they are married to the Church." A good portion of bishop duties is administrative in nature, so appointing a bishop is seen as a monastic obedience. One does not simply become a bishop, etc.
>>27016948On second thought scratch the inconsistent, that's mostly phrase trappings, the second point is still valid, though.
>>27016785One thing that people forget about Paul is that his purpose was the survival of what was considered a heathen cult by, well, most everyone. At that stage of Christianity, ensuring bloodlines and propagation(since Christianity had horrible comparative numbers for quite a while), but propagation only among believers because obviously the apostles didn't want the faith to be diluted.
Wow. Two theological discussions in a week. Thanks again for this /tg/.
>>27016720Why would Christ die for sinners if God did hate sinners? Why would he send his ONLY SON to be tortured for people he hates? If he hates sinners (and we're all sinners, being human) why doesn't he just just go "fuck it" and kill all of humanity?
>>27016987>so I think the justification for them being unwed is something along the lines of "they are married to the Church."This is pretty much exactly it.
>>27016948>>27017007Then how is the Psalmist supposed to be understood in the quoted text? Beyond that Gods hate for evil-doers isn't limited to the psalm. Leviticus 20:22-23 “You shall therefore keep all my statutes and all my rules and do them, that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them. Hosea 9:15-17Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them.Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house.I will love them no more; all their princes are rebels.16 Ephraim is stricken; their root is dried up; they shall bear no fruit.Even though they give birth, I will put their beloved children to death.17 My God will reject them because they have not listened to him; they shall be wanderers among the nations.Is this just poetry? This is the Law and the Prophets we're talking about. If this isn't supposed to be clear as day then you have to assert you can't learn anything from the Bible about God's character. Why can't God hate people? I don't understand what the aversion is, I rejoice that God loathes the wicked and destroys them for their wickedness. That isn't to say I am some great and righteous perfect man, I am not by any stretch, but it is by the grace of God that I can learn to rejoice in those things about God that the world hates and turns it's eyes from.
>>27017307Because it is a part of God's character to be both Just and righteous and to be merciful. You can show mercy upon your enemies and upon those you hate. In fact that is the glory of god that he does have that marcy. That undeserving, people who actually deserve to go to Hell can receive a substitution for and redemption from their sin and be made a new creature. Keep that in mind. We are made NEW CREATURES in christ, we don't remain the same kind of thing after salvation that we were before. What we were before is detestable and accursed, what we become is righteous and holy.
>>27017410Mary is a weird case of divine time-travel. The grace of salvation brought through Jesus' death and resurrection was afforded to her before Jesus was even born.
>>27017307You've never before known a guy who disagreed with his dad?
>>27017410i'm pretty sure the exact nature of Mary is a point of division between Catholic and Orthodox churches.
>>27017445I've noticed that Leviticus is basically the asshole book of the Bible. Any time a Christfag tells me to contextualize/reinterpret/turn a blind eye to a piece of scripture, it's almost always from Leviticus.
How many angel types are there? Would it be a good idea to make your own? Not OP just asking. It seems kinda simple. Mash different animals together. Maybe add some wings. Put a halo behind it.
>>27017832Most sources say nine.
Y'know what would make a great Paladin/cleric campaign? The Pilgrims Progress.>Be a depressed peasant>Get instructions from a Mysterious Old Man(tm) to go to the City of God>Quest across miles and miles of dangerous terrain, full of demons, monsters, giants, and other minions of Beelzebub, usually escaping only through the strength of your faith or the quickness of your wit.>Finally reach the City, and have to cross a lake that will instantly drown anyone with even the slightest hint of doubt.>Get a standing ovation from Angels.
Interesting biblical plot-hooks:A marauding army of ex-slaves is laying waste to several feuding city-states in the region, enslaving the women and killing all the men. Can you stop them? (Hint: if you have chariots of iron then yes you can)The local king has tasked you with forcibly circumsizing the nearby barbarian tribes, who have been encroaching on his lands to prove your worth and be named his heir