I have an unpopular opinion on what I like about playing RPGs.I do not care *particularly* about personal character development. Nor do I find myself particularly gripped by character relationships, or NPC relationships. Nor do I get a visceral thrill for mechanical character advancement. I do pay attention to these things, especially in the character-building phase. When the time comes to actually play the game, I still keep all of those in mind, but one thing stands above all else.That would be making an impact on the game world. I want to be able to make a difference in the make-believe worlds I play in. I want to perform memorable deeds and leave lasting legacies.I want to liberate the nation from the oppressors. I want to end the machinations of the evil organization. I want to bring order to the realm plunged into chaos. I want to find the long-lost secret that scholars the world over have been seeking. I want to improve the lives of my character's friends and family (although I suppose that falls under relationships). I want to teach people to stand up for themselves and fight the good fight.I want to be able to look at my character, give them a thumbs up, and go, "That was awesome. You did good. No, *we* did good," giving congratulatory gestures to the other players.I see others care about how their character changes and evolves as a person, and how their relationships with others change and evolve; I understand how some can feel that way, but I can never feel it myself. I do not care if my character is the exact same person they were at the start than at the finish (but character development is a nice bonus). I care *everything* about how they and their friends have impacted the world around them.Incidentally, this is also why I cannot wrap my head around devoting main session time to "slice-of-life." I cannot see the appeal in spending main session time on that, rather than actually making an impact on the world.Does anyone feel the same way?
>>25252239This is a thing that I also like.Not all games will give you this kind of power (and not all GMs will allow it to happen even in games where it should).When I ran Exalted, this was the focus: the setting-changing stuff the PCs could do, and the natural consequences of their powerful actions.
go away touhoufagAlso RPG stories are always bad. "You should have been there it was so cool" is one of the worst things anyone can say.
>>25252239>I cannot see the appeal in spending main session time on that, rather than actually making an impact on the world.I find a character's impact on the world is more meaningful when it is connected to their own characterization, and their decisions are affected by who they are. Short sessions like that are fun to bounce interactions off of other characters and can help you better define how you want to play the character, how they would react to situations, what their likes and dislikes are, that sort of thing.
You favor plot-driven stories over character-driven stories, and that's fine. Ultimately it's different forms of conflict, and one can definitely influence the other. The thing about "slice of life" is that it's done right when there's still conflict. Characters grow and change through it, even when small problems are concerned. And seeing how those characters develop can be just as satisfying to some people.Namely, make time for both types of players.
I like that but I like the other things too.
>>25252378>random fighter with no personal goals or desires makes impact on world>no one notices
I'm not trying to be a dick or anything (at least not too much of one), but did you ever think that maybe you want that for yourself?
>>25252239I think that's why most people play rpgs.
>>25252390>You favor plot-driven stories over character-driven stories, and that's fine.I also like character-driven stories, but in a much more goal-oriented fashion.Suppose I make, say, a magician of some kind who wants to:1. Unlock the secret of the creation of the universe.2. Reconcile with their disapproving mother.3. Transform Antarctica into a habitable winter wonderland, because why not?If the GM agrees that those are valid in-character goals, then by god, I will have my character pursue them alongside anything else dictated by the main plot.Will my character undergo character growth and development as they pursue those goals? Probably. It is a nice bonus, but not particularly thrilling for me.When my character takes a step towards unlocking the secret of the creation of the universe? That makes me feel great.When my character makes progress towards reconciling with their disapproving mother? That gives me a thrill.When my character's goal of transforming Antarctica into a winter wonderland becomes more and more viable? That makes me feel awesome.I like character-driven stories, but not for the character growth and relationships. I like them for the visceral thrill of achieving goals and making an impact on the game world.
Slice-of-life can be done horribly wrong, OP, but it can also be done horribly right. If the person running the show is smart, they'll use what appears to be a calm in the storm to launch a few hooks your way or flap the metaphorical wings of a butterfly over in Brazil while you guys are in New York.It's also a time for you and your group to decompress, take stock of the situation, maybe discuss things in character - as opposed to out of character/away from the session and then simply acting on it as if you all shared some sort of telepathic bond.A little... thought just crossed my mind. Are your groups role or roll play heavy? If it's all combat, your DM/GM/Man Behind The Curtains could simply be trying to encourage you guys to branch out (I give far too much credit to the folks behind the show out there, most won't bother). If it's roleplay heavy, then it makes some sense and perhaps another group for you would be in order - sad as it is to say. Unless you take up the role of The Big Guy in terms of the five-man band trope and run with that - staying ultra-professional and distant or something in that vein.Rambling incoherent post ending in this vein, OP, I'm glad that you enjoy creating stories for the bards to sing of over wine and bread. It's always nice to know that High Fantasy ideals aren't dead amongst my fellows - regardless of the setting.
>>25252792>Reconcile with their disapproving motherPhysically or emotionally abusive flavor?
>>25252239I can definitely understand the feeling!It's about wanting to see your character go down in myth and legend. To have his story become a local fable or folk-tale.To me, that helps make me feel as if the setting/world is more "real", if that makes sense...Because each time you are able to build a legend of your own it sort of, by association, makes all the OTHER myths and legends and heroic deeds more real.It says "this is a world where fairy-tales and legends can happen."... Hm...That is to say, if you play a game where you solve a one-shot problem such that there are no MORE problems TO solve... that makes it feel a bit odd. It makes you wonder why all these problems were there conveniently unsolved up until your group solved it.It makes you wonder HOW you could even HAVE generations or ages of heroes -- because your group, when they showed up, fixed all the problems, not leaving any for the future... So why didn't all the other, earlier, guys do that?... Well anyway... Its just a thing that makes a world more organic and "alive".Both forging your own legend, easing up cracks in the world, as well as making your accomplishments feel new and not "And after all this, there's no more challenge ever."... Well that went on a bit of a tangent. Oh well, its nice anyway...
>>25253053>It's also a time for you and your group to decompress, take stock of the situation, maybe discuss things in character - as opposed to out of character/away from the session and then simply acting on it as if you all shared some sort of telepathic bond.When this does happen, I do not see it as slice-of-life so much as I see it as "planning on what to do next."When my character is going over a list of evidence with the rest of the party and trying to draw conclusions, or discussing strategy in the war room, that is planning, not slice-of-life. Slice-of-life would be doing homework or heading to the grocery store to buy some yakisoba.This leads into another thing: sometimes, without even realizing that the GM is trying to lead things into a relaxed, slice-of-life situation, I have my character remain in serious, goal-focused mode and go over plans and past events so as to chart out a course of action. Only after several awkward half-hours do I notice that I am supposed to be in a slice-of-life scene.I generally prefer more narrative-focused games, like FATE and Legends of the Wulin. Combat is fun, but investigation, research, and politicking are great as well; all of these things are valid means by which to go about accomplishing goals and making an impact on the world.Heading to the grocery store to buy some noodles... not so much.
>>25253481I don't even get this post.
>>25253831Eh, that post got away from me a bit... I was making 2 separate points at the same time I think.Anyway, the main thing is that I get the OP liking accomplishments and changes to the status quo.You want your character to have Done Something.(The second part of my previous post went on a sort-of tangent about verisimilitude and narrative and stuff.)
>>25252239Eh. I cannot stand SoL, like you. But I think that whether or not you succeed in your deed is secondary to whether you tried in the first place.Oh, and mechanics are fun as shit. Like, making and implementing a design, seeing what works and what doesn't, and then taking it back to the garage and tinkering with it some more?Fun as fuk.
>>25254256Oh, I do like game design.In fact, I have been working on this one homebrew FATE mythic heroes RPG for what seems like an entire year by now, and I am still caught up in the "reading through entire threads of RPG design discussion on places like RPG.net" and "asking my circle of game-mechanics-competent contacts on IRC for their opinion on certain mechanics every single day" phase.Character optimization and figuring out build progression is a great deal of fun for me as well.However, all of these are a means to an end for me, and that end is accomplishing goals and making an impact on the game world.>But I think that whether or not you succeed in your deed is secondary to whether you tried in the first place.As for this, well, as long as the story of the valiant attempt was made is a good one, that is fine by me too.
>>25254347Post more 2hus and I will vehemently agree with you.
>>25254347But it's FATEHow do you optimize in FATE?
>>25254347Another question: How do you feel about games that revolve around Slice-of-Life. As in, that is the point.Like AdEva (the robot fights are just to distract you from the fact you're playing a middle school girl).
>>25254539Optimization is more for games like Legends of the Wulin and Dungeons & Dragons 4e, wherein piecing together builds is very fun.Optimization for FATE, such as the Dresden Files RPG, is mainly to highlight significant, brobdingnagian flaws in game balance, such that they can be pointed out to others for the sake of spreading awareness. (Trust me, significant optimization is possible in any FATE game save for perhaps the most bare-bones FATE Core game.)>>25254547I have no interest in such games, but I do not exactly charge into Adeptus Evangelion IRC channels proselytizing about the evils of slice-of-life.I have my own issues with the "mundane characters out-of-combat who partake in slice-of-life issues, godlike characters in-combat who save the world," as I have pointed out in another thread >>25253075, but that is another thing I dislike altogether.
>>25254843>I have no interest in such games, but I do not exactly charge into Adeptus Evangelion IRC channels proselytizing about the evils of slice-of-life.According to most of the rumors, you'd get kickbanned anyway.How do you feel about games like Fantasy Craft where they do encourage you to make ridiculous builds that handle stuff through other means than fighting, and make entire classes around the concept?
>>25254539>How do you optimize in FATE?Its way easier to break FATE than many other noteworthy "broken" games. FATE doesn't pretend at balance and isn't meant for that type of gameplay.
>>25255001In games like FATE and Legends of the Wulin, my preferred character type is a mental and/or social character who is the go-to person for everything book- or conversation-related as far as skills are concerned. That is what I optimize them for first and foremost.However, I always give such characters potent combat ability, not by giving them modest skills with a sword or whatnot. No, that is stupid. Instead, I "cheat" (actually, staying within the rules) their way into applying their mental or social statistics into combat.In the Dresden Files RPG, this is as simple as investing in spellcasting powers. Now, mu character's Discipline and Lore are going directly into overwhelmingly potent (if a little too potent, hence the "caster edition" problem that the DFRPG suffers from) attacks.In Legends of the Wulin, this could happen by taking a Courtier (Doctors and Priests can do it too though) and investing in the Quick Work, Proper Forms of Conflict, and Heart-Breaking Words techniques. Now, I can fire off a gatling gun of social attacks mid-combat, which can potentially *kill* your enemy. Note, one of the Courtier's Tools you can pick up is called "Dispassion." It is possible to literally kill someone by being so aloof and dispassionate that they see no more reason to live, and they then lay down and die.Nearly all of my recent characters have been optimized using this particular formula: optimize a mental-skill-focused and/or social-skill-focused character, then "cheat" my way into applying that character's mental or social skills over into combat.
>>25255161Check out Fantasy Craft then. Certain Feats let you make attacks using your Sense Motive (or something like that, forget exactly what) Check instead.
>>25252378This a million god damn times. though if that really is colette it certainly explains a lot.
>>25255200I am not a fan of d20-based mechanics though, or Western high fantasy settings in general. I apologize, but I may have to pass on Fantasy Craft.I am more of a fan of modern fantasy and... how to put it, "Gensokyoan fantasy." The latter being set in a fantastical world parallel to modern-day earth, that takes plenty of cues and technology from the present day while still being high fantasy at its heart.I find that FATE and Legends of the Wulin handle those two kinds of settings better than anything designed with D&D-type fantasy in mind.I also do not see what this has to do with the unpopular (or is it?) opinion of preferring goal-based gameplay in RPGs.
>>25255326Just a tangent because I love to suggest games to people. On that note, Fantasy Craft can do modern day with a small tweak (it goes up to Black Powder Weapons by default, so it gets substantially more modern than many of its counterparts) but I understand what you're getting it.Anyway, it's not really unpopular. Rather, it is exceedingly common. /tg/ is just being RPG hipster.
>>25255326How do you feel about 2d6?And what about elegant design?Also if you ask me, sci-fi > everything else.
>>25255326F/SFthough gensokyo is much less of that sort of thing, because you don't have a lot of focus on the people crossing over the borders, but essentially whenever you combine fantasy and science fiction in any way it becomes F/SF. Gensokyo is one of the few I like since most F/SF ever have women play the damsel in distress quite heavily. though you've also referred to it as kitchen sink, which is another way to look at it i suppose.
>>25255326How do you feel about the ways they suggest adding magic and flow to Fate Core?
>>25255394Legends of Anglerre is a FATE Western high fantasy game that goes up to black powder weapons by default, and I keep my distance from that system for a number of reasons.It is mainly a matter of preference with regards to Western high fantasy.>>25255400>How do you feel about 2d6?I like how simplistic it is, how it has a decent curve, and how it can be used with the most common type of dice around.I generally prefer either FUDGE dice or d6-d6, since I like having the average result of a roll be your numerical rating itself. That is, if you have a skill at +4, and you roll 4dF or d6-d6, your average will be +4. That is much more convenient to me than having to add 7 to a skill value to determine the average, which can get cumbersome when passive defense comes into play.>And what about elegant design?Elegant design is important to me, but I feel that sometimes, you just have to step back and rely on traditional RPG mechanics and outcomes. No amount of indie game design superpowers will ever get you a more straightforward and elegant result for succeeding on a roll to open a lock than "Yep, you open it." You could try to unify everything into some fancy, "elegant" system of factors, aspects, and conditions, but that is more trouble than it is worth.>>25255483The magic system toolkit was a valiant effort, but ultimately, it feels lacking to me.- Stormcallers is a weaker version of Shooting (due to its limited range) that you can sometimes use to cheese enemies out of actions by abusing barriers.- The Subtle Art is too much trouble to place a simple, minor curse (read: +2 bonus or reroll) on an enemy, and encourages you to stack up countless aspects with free invokes on you at the start of each day.- The Six Viziers is basically just super-stunts, and not much of a magic system at all.- Storm Summoners is far too mechanically fiddly and complex without actually adding that much depth and tactics to combat at all, which is just shameful.
>>25255741What about the generic Extras from the Core? Do you think they're good examples of how to do it? I think there's value in making them work like special skills, so long as it doesn't completely replace other Skills.(I would like to someday use it to make a fun Railgun game)
>>25255828The superpower extras in FATE Core are a good idea, although their examples are sloppy.Energy Blast is *astonishingly* overpowered for 2 refresh, since it effectively grants you a +2 bonus to attack rolls and 2 extra stress dealt on top of that.Super-Resilience, likewise, is overpowered. Armor:2 against all physical stress? Really? (Also, note the nonsensical wording even in the final draft of FATE Core: "You have Armor:2 vs. any defense roll against physical damage." Poor show, Evil Hat.)In any case, the most critical step for superpowers in any FATE game is this. If you cannot accomplish this step, I am sorry, but you are screwed:Have a good guideline for figuring out which superpowers should be stunts, and which should be skills.In general, passive or "do this one thing very well" superpowers should be stunts. Super strength, super speed, enhanced perception, inciting a certain emotion with your social skills, having a siren voice, turning invisible, illusory disguises.Anything that has a flexible degree of uses, such as manipulation of [insert element or concept here], should be a skill.If you can sort these two out, you should be well on your way to a good FATE superheroes game.
>>25255741I think you and I are not thinking of the same thing when we say "elegant" design.I mean something like this.
>>25256126I do not quite see what is particularly elegant about it from a game design standpoint. It seems like a standard hit location table to me.
What's /tg/'s definition of "character development" anyway?
If it's only forward, every session is part of making an impact, it can end up feeling hollow. While indeed, advancing the plot is important. Many of the best sessions for me have been the ones that brought the characters closer, or further apart, both plot advancing sessions and less important sessions can have this effect.I personally feel events that shape the character's view of the world, are the most important. Now to say you can't both change a character's view and the world isn't true either. Overall, it depends, I've had quite a few amazing sessions that were what some people would classify as ''slice of life'' that served to make events that came the next day much harsher.All in all, it depends on how much time you have. The standard meeting around a table game? I can't see the need for that, but a game where players are free to jump in character whenever, or sessions run frequently? I can see devoting one or two to further bond the characters. Making the inevitable losses they will suffer much more real, I suppose.
>>25256553I give a great deal of thought to a character's worldview at character creation. I play FATE often; it is something I have to do as I hash out a full suite of aspects.However, during gameplay? I ultimately do not care particularly about how my character's viewpoints evolve and grow. It is bound to happen; after observing X event, Y change in the character's mind is inevitable, and I do my best to roleplay that out. However, I do not actively seek these things out, nor do I get that much of a thrill from it.Yes, this does make my character boring from a storytelling perspective, but I do not care about it all that much. I care about how it affects the world around my character.People in the game world think, "Wow, it is so great that Antarctica is now a habitable, winter wonderland with a tremendous degree of land mass!" Even though they are fictional people, even though those fictional people might never know my character's part in it, that makes me happy for myself, and it makes me happy for them. Those make-believe people do not go, "You know, the person responsible for making Antarctica this way was actually quite troubled as they were wracked by the philosophical and political ramifications of etc. etc."In other words, character development is inevitable, and I do my best to roleplay along to adapt to changes. It is fun, but does not give me a rush of *fun*. What does give me that is making more progress towards making an impact on the game world.
>>25256553Let me guess, you play AdEva?
Is this a Touhoufag?
>>25257265Is that a bad thing?
>>25257432Considering that the crowd it attracts is as bad and full of weirdos as the Changeling crowd...Yes.
>>25257481That's a horrible generalization. That's like saying the entire roleplaying hobby is bad because FATAL and Black Tokyo are things.
>>25252590At that point history will remember the deeds, but the person would be lost to history.
>>25257100>People in the game world think, "Wow, it is so great that Antarctica is now a habitable, winter wonderland with a tremendous degree of land mass!" Even though they are fictional people, even though those fictional people might never know my character's part in it, that makes me happy for myself, and it makes me happy for them.You sound fucking insane.
While we are on the topic of "impacting the world" versus "slice-of-life," I may as well bring up the campaign I wanted to run, which would use the homebrew FATE mythic heroes system I mentioned here >>25254347.It is called Children of the Apocalypse. It is rather high-concept and demands certain character types. It is similar to Scion, only with less "you are but a cog in the machine," less grimdark and grittiness, and more "forge your own fate" and heroism. It is intended to have the overall feel of one of those "young adult" novels, the kind for preteens and early- to mid-teenagers.The core premise is that the vast majority of the gods that mankind has worshipped are real, having been there from the start and all having had a hand in creating the world.The vast majority of the gods and their servants are distant from Earth, residing in distant dimensions and demesnes; they can influence the world only in subtle ways, every once in a blue moon. However, four specific pantheons, known as the Olympians (Greek), the Netjeru (Egyptian), the Aesir (Norse), and the Kotoamatsukami (Japanese) are closer to Earth than all others. They have the potential to step down and gift the world with their blessings and wisdom...That is, if they had not been locked in a bloody war with their respective divine nemeses for the past two thousand years. A war which they recently *lost*.Typhon, the Father of All Monsters, has conquered Olympus, home of the Greek gods.Apep, the Devourer of the Sun, now commandeers the Solar Fleet, the barges of the Egyptian pantheon.Fenrir, the Destroyer Wolf, has taken Asgard, the world of the Norse deities.Amatsu-Mikaboshi, the August Star of Heaven, is the new ruler of Takamagahara, the land of the Japanese kami.Many of the good deities lay dead and buried. Some, too strong to be slain, are sealed within their respective home dimensions.(Continued.)
>>25258095The fell gods did not fare better. Their pyrrhic victory depleted many of their forces and resources, and their four leaders were heavily wounded and drained of their power as consequences of their decisive battles.Typhon, Apep, Fenrir, and Amatsu-Mikaboshi now rest and recuperate, and administrate the conquered divine realms through proxies and servitors. They eye the mortal world with avarice, looking to enswathe Earth in their dark grasp. Their forces have already cracked open a hole in reality through which to pour through; for now, it allows them passage into a single ill-fated city, but as the invasion progresses, the cracks in the world will spread.The players will take the role of the half-god, half-human scions of the four leaders of the dark deities' alliance, born of brief trysts in the mortal world. (Hence, "Children of the Apocalypse.") They are all supposed to be middle- or high-schoolers in that one fateful city.The players are free to pick out which apocalyptic god they want to be the scion of, although they are encouraged to be one of each. Due to FATE's flexible character creation, they can interpret the themes of their divine parents however they like; a scion of Apep could have a naga-like alternate form and breathe dark flames, a scion of Amatsu-Mikaboshi could cast down cold and unnatural starlight, and a scion of Typhon could be a dragon-winged summoner of monsters.The game's first few sessions would start off on a local scale. Standard magical girl fare: evil monsters are attacking the city, defeat them. As the PCs learn more of their heritage and the full magnitude of the situation, they realize that they need to get serious. It helps that due to their parentage, they are *the* strongest scions around.They begin to track down other scions (mostly of the good gods) from all across the globe and unite them, in an effort to defend the world from the invaders pouring in from the ever-spreading cracks in reality.(Cont.)
>>25252239That's not that unpopular. I never particularly cared for "exploring my character", either. I'd rather exlore the game world. Slice-of-life is the most bland, inoffensive, and boring genre of anything.
>>25258302By the halfway point of the campaign, the player characters begin to take a more proactive stance. Their allies can handle repelling the invaders, but the player characters and their finest companions must go and liberate the four divine realms.Think the Saboteur, or the liberation missions from Assassin's Creed 3, only on a divine scale. The PCs spark civil unrest, beat down linchpins, and form a resistance movement in Olympus, the Solar Fleet, Asgard, and Takamagahara. They recruit the assistance of sealed gods as well; weakened and weary they might be, but having Susano-o on your side to rally the tengu rebels in taking back the palace of Amaterasu is a great boon.From there, they probably progress towards defeating the four leaders of the dark gods themselves, and rebuilding the divine realms.This would be a very high-powered game, since it involves the chicanery of demigods and divine servitors. It would also be very "high-octane," though by no means particularly combat-focused; intelligence-gathering and social maneuvering are critical components for both defending the world from invaders and organizing a resistance movement.Of course, FATE being FATE, the players are the ones who should help the GM settle on the precise themes of the game.So, tell me, if you were interested in joining this game, what kind of themes would you want from it? What would you want to explore for your character?More importantly, and more related to the original topic of this thread: would you want to have slice-of-life to break things up? Furthermore, how would you reconcile slice-of-life sessions with the great degree of urgency and large emphasis on proactively achieving goals the campaign is supposed to have?
>>25257581>my way of playing pretend is normal but yours is crazy
Just as long as you're not going "well, your character is having badwrongfun", Touhoufag, you're fine. I like big goals too, but I also love unrelated internal struggles. Every scene needs a point, and that point can also be revealing aspects of character. Even a wind-down scene has a goal, things that characters want, but they clash against each other in a very small way and we learn more about them. That's fine.
>>25258356>Slice-of-lifeWhat? SoL and character development are two completely different things.
>>25252239Except, what you just described IS character development, so...
>>25257493Feel free to ignore him. There is this one guy who really dislikes so called "slice of life" games, and AdEva in particular, despite the fact that in a game of AdEva all of your non-combat on the ground sessions are where 90% of your plot and intrigue is happening. Simply put, if you have a session where honest to god nothing important happened? No new NPCs introduced, no rumors about some project going on behind the scenes, no introduction to new parts of the base or noticing that X NPC is up to something... the GM is dropping the ball. That applies to any roleplay heavy game.There was a whole thread about this a few weeks back, and it is pretty clearly the same guy.
I love character development, but find it hard to do much of that in slice-of-life.
I would play the Children of the Apocalypse campaign.
>>25262129Could you perhaps answer the questions I had brought up with regards to it? They are, after all, the main point of me having posted everything about what I had in mind:>So, tell me, if you were interested in joining this game, what kind of themes would you want from it? What would you want to explore for your character?>More importantly, and more related to the original topic of this thread: would you want to have slice-of-life to break things up? Furthermore, how would you reconcile slice-of-life sessions with the great degree of urgency and large emphasis on proactively achieving goals the campaign is supposed to have?
>>25252239It's best when you get to save the world AND THEN RETIRE.Retirement is the sweetest.
>>25264700Sure, of course!>So, tell me, if you were interested in joining this game, what kind of themes would you want from it?Exploration (of places in the city and elsewhere on earth being invaded, then perhaps altered places damaged by divine conflict/influence, and finally ruined divine realms themselves), strategy (deploying allies, planning ambushes, etc) and intrigue/subtefuge (infiltrating teams of enemy servitors, coordinating allies and making sure they'll go along with plans, persuading other scions to join forces with us, children of the fell gods, and that sort of thing). Plus action, of course.>What would you want to explore for your character?Besides the above, it would probably depend on specific character concept. I can't really plan that before then. I suppose seeing different interpretations of the same theme, like how servants of the god my character is born of use their magic vs the way I use the same kind of powers in different ways. Learning from the way I'm reflected in those opponents.>More importantly, and more related to the original topic of this thread: would you want to have slice-of-life to break things up?I do enjoy slice-of-life, although it would be tricky to include. But I'd enjoy it if it could be.>Furthermore, how would you reconcile slice-of-life sessions with the great degree of urgency and large emphasis on proactively achieving goals the campaign is supposed to have?There could be more slice-of-life to start with, while the characters are still at school and before they've turned proactive. Even after that, there can still be social interaction, the party and allies getting along, while planning the next moves. Working together and living together, that kind of theme.
>>25265382Exploration, strategy, intrigue, subterfuge, and social interactions are not themes. They are activities. Themes would be more like recurring motifs in the game, along the lines of "the new replaces the old," "conflicting identities," or "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."What themes, then, would you be interested in emphasizing over the course of the entire game?>I suppose seeing different interpretations of the same theme, like how servants of the god my character is born of use their magic vs the way I use the same kind of powers in different ways. Learning from the way I'm reflected in those opponents.This would be a good example of a theme along the lines of "same origin, different outlooks" or perhaps simply "nature versus nurture.">There could be more slice-of-life to start with, while the characters are still at school and before they've turned proactive. Even after that, there can still be social interaction, the party and allies getting along, while planning the next moves. Working together and living together, that kind of theme.I can certainly see how slice-of-life can take place before or after scenes such as war room planning, yes.
>>25265989I should add that I personally do not care *particularly* about exploring themes for my character (again, it is all about impacting the world for me), and I have no taste for slice-of-life either.I am simply trying to see things from the opposing view's perspective.
>>25265989Yes, themes like the two you describe, "same origin, different outlooks" and "nature versus nurture", as well as "mundane vs fantastical" (the normal world vs the divine), and "bright vs dark" and "spectacular vs sinister" (the pantheons vs the nemeses).In all those conflicts I like that they wouldn't just divine my side from the enemies: in mundane vs fantastical, both are appearances characters (PC, ally or enemy) can take on, and themes places can have. In dark vs light, the the PCs and big villains have one theme and allies have another. Perhaps some minions could be corrupted servants of the pantheons, so there's light as well as dark among the opposing forces too.
>>25268070So, you would be a fan of exploring contrasts and comparisons? What makes you a fan of examining how A is the polar opposite of B, or how X is actually quite similar to Y?As an aside, have some artwork for what I had envisioned a scion of Amatsu-Mikaboshi to be like. I decided to go with a "dark kitsune"/nogitsune-esque look due to how Mikaboshi is supposedly a patron of evil spirits, how stars emit light, and how manipulating light is a core component of the illusions and foxfire that fox spirits weave.
>>25268643Yes, definitely. Contrasts all the way. I'd play games without it, but when there's potential for it, like in Children of the Apocalypse, I'd like to see it.I always like it when people post pics while talking on /tg/.
>>25257100How do you break FATE? Isn't the whole game just "pick a subject you get +2 rolls on" and that's it.
>>25271041I see. Contrasts are certainly a strong theme.>I always like it when people post pics while talking on /tg/.I do wish I could use more relevant images at times.>>25271751Certain FATE games, namely, the Dresden Files RPG, Legends of Anglerre, and Kerberos Club, are highly breakable and wildly unbalanced in terms of the abilities available to player characters.FATE Core is balanced only because it is a toolbox with a minimal amount of premade abilities for the player characters to pick up. Even then, with extras allowed, you can break the combat system by taking, say, Energy Blast and Super Resilience.
>>25272205I think you're jumping the gun here. Enemy supers will have just as much power. This isn't exactly a "Dresden Files magic pump" situation here which requires optimization.
>>25272205Ah, so if I just ran Fate CORE and let my players come up with their own abilities or just made my own default ones it would be OK.
>>25272534That's how it was always intended with Core. You make your extras and your GM has to clear them. Energy Blast might be a bit much at +2 to attacks/advantages and Weapon 2 for you, it might not.
>>25272635I don't understand what it means. I thought +2 is the default. Or is that FATE points only. I am new to FATE. And what's weapon 2.
>>25272836A stunt usually gets you a +2 bonus to a certain action.
>>25272338>Enemy supers will have just as much power.This is like saying, "Spellcasters in the Dresden Files RPG are balanced because enemy spellcasters will have just as much power."For the most part, the stunts in FATE Core are reasonable examples of the power level of stunts, barring a few nearly useless ones, such as Tough as Nails.The extras chapter, is an infuriatingly vague toolbox-within-a-toolbox, and the small section on superpowers is unhelpful because it provides unbalanced guidelines.The point of providing sample powers is to give a reasonable guideline for how strong the powers a player wants should be under a given cost. If half of the sample powers are overwhelmingly potent for their cost, then they are poor examples, and thus, wasted space. They harm the game simply for being there.This is similar to how Mage: The Awakening's core rulebook is ~34% composed of pages upon pages of sample spells, plenty of which are poorly thought-out and unbalanced for their dot level (especially for the Mind arcanum). In a game wherein the players are encouraged to make up their own tricks, poor examples actively harm the game by confusing the players on how strong a given trick should be under a certain cost.There is also a non-negligible amount of players and GMs alike who, in any RPG, prefer to keep within the confines of premade abilities out of unwillingness to balance out homebrew/custom powers. There is nothing wrong with this, since it is not a philosophy that actively harms the game, and indeed, I tend towards this as well. For these players and GMs, having poorly-balanced powers and abilities is a death sentence for balance.Again, FATE Core's stunts are good, except for a few underpowered standouts. The extras chapter, however, is of questionable balance.
>>25273675Those are some crazy eyes.
>>25273675Except extras are also stunts. Or skills. Really, you're complaining about one or two powers, with small enough balance issues that can be bypassed in a typical Fate game. Like Super-Resilence, which gets you Armor 2 versus physical damage for each point of refresh. This falls neatly within the stunt rules. So what's going to happen? He's going to encounter mages and psionicists and the like where his defense won't work.I wish the Extras chapter was more clear too, but what's there is not as bad as you claim. Comparing it to the Storyteller system abilities is especially absurd.
>>25273891>Except extras are also stunts. Or skills. Really, you're complaining about one or two powers, with small enough balance issues that can be bypassed in a typical Fate game.I am using them to highlight the issues in a specific section of the extras chapter, but I am also trying to say that the extras chapter as a whole is not very helpful as a whole.What are the guidelines for extra skill points and refresh rate?How is the sample "Interface" skill not just a more niche Crafts, especially when Crafts is specifically defined as manipulating technology?How is the sample "Media" skill not just a more niche version of Contacts?Does possessing the ship known as the "Galerider" means the characters have to dump their precious aspect slots, skill points, and refresh rate just to own it?How does the "Commune" skill even work? Do you stack as many free invocations onto yourself as you can at the start of each session, and then freely invoke them as much as you want?I am not comparing the extras chapter to the Storyteller system abilities; I am comparing the superpowers section to it.How does the "Schools of Power"-style magic system even work? How much refresh does it cost?
>>25252239It's only unpopular because you don't enjoy a part of the game that other people enjoy.The reason you feel like you don't get enough of it is because, apparently, the only thing you like in RPGs is the single hardest thing for a GM to effectively do in an RPG.So, good luck with that.
>>25274986Why's it so hard?
How do you make slice of life anything but garbage?
>>25258095>>25258302>>25258358Can I play a half-fae catboy though?
>>25277326collet pls go
>>25277326>asking the ORIGINAL half-fae catboy
>>25277326Why not a half-god catboy?
>>25278435>they said I could be come anything I wanted>so I became a half-fae catboy
>>25273891FATE Core is basically terrible if you actually want to run a superheroes game.
>>25278559What's the best FATE superheroes game then?
>>25278626Quite frankly, if you wish for a FATE game about superheroes that is actually balanced and offers a great degree of options out of the box, you will have to construct it yourself from the toolkit that is FATE Core.I had mentioned earlier in this thread that I have been working on a FATE mythic heroes game. It is actually a blend of FATE with Legends of the Wulin's combat system. I hope to show an alpha draft of it here within the next few months, along with a sample setting I have been working on, called Great Faerie Wars.
>>25278865>Great Faerie WarsI'm still hype for it.Just so you know.
>>25278865Should've known that fairy stuff was you.
>>25278865You have to build powers in Mutants and Masterminds, too. They're derived from various effects, true, but it's the same idea. And it's just as easy to spank M&M into something broken.The Extras chapter could use more information and guidelines, but what's there is fine enough for supers and it's not as "unbalanced" as you claim. Yes, you can break it, but like with more dedicated superhero games, you're going to need a GM to approve things anyway.
>>25279901The important thing about Mutants & Masterminds is that it has an effects system to begin with.It gives you a good baseline for creating powers for spreading magical afflictions, summoning creatures from the netherworld, reading minds, manipulating the elements, teleporting gargantuan distances, and so on. Using the ingredients laid out before you, you can mix together a good dish.FATE Core gives you a description of what roughly 10% of the ingredients *might* be like, then leaves you in the dark to figure out the other 90%. This is understandable, given the page count. However, it does not change the fact that if you want to run FATE superheroes, you are going to have to do far more homebrewing, customization, and do-it-yourself-ing than what Mutants & Masterminds offers.I would still prefer FATE over Mutants & Masterminds for a supeheroes game, but I would have to accept that there will be much more homebrewing work necessary for the former.
>my face when I don't play RPGs for the plot>I only play it to pretend to be a make-believe character and develop that character's personalityIs THIS an unpopular opinion?
>>25281098Lel whada nerd
>>25281098I know that feel.I don't play AdEva for the angel fights. Those bore me.I just wanna... kick back and relax, you know?
>>25281098No, I play RPGs to develop characters as well.
>>25252239When playing or running any type of game, I find that one thing pulls me and others in more than anything else: consequences. It's true in vidya too. The utter lack of any real consequences is what put me off mmorpgs. It's the appeal of multiple endings to a storyline. It's, like you said, making an impact in the game world. That's why I purposely only develop my worlds halfway and let the players sculpt the rest. Whether their actions have positive or negative consequences(usually both), the world is different because of them. I often prefer to return to that same world and have the new characters hear legends of their old ones.
>>25282694Can you elaborate on what kinds of consequences you like in particular, and what's so appealing about them?
>>25278626FATE Accelerated is excellent for superheroes, generally speaking. Also, I'm gonna go out there and say it: Compared to FAE, FATE Core blows donkey balls. It's completely obsoleted by Accelerated Edition, there really isn't much reason to use Core now that it's out.
>>25285866What, really? FAE is hardly different from Core.
>>25285881No, it's enormously different. That shrunken pyramid and, most importantly, the replacement of Skills with Approaches changes everything. You can't make a non-shitty Batman in FATE Core even with a bigger skillpoint pool, because the baseline target to create an advantage is 3 and you can't have more than a few skills at that level, for example (using the standard columns, you get a whopping four skills, only two of which are Great - so good luck making an awesome martial artist whos is the World's Greatest Detective and filthy stinking rich there). Meanwhile in Accelerated, with its lowered Advantage threshold and broader 'skills' you just take Clevel +3 and then whatever the hell you want to take, because you can spin it into everything that makes Batman Batman. The same goes for pretty much every other superhero, too - Flash? Max out Quick, done. Green Lantern? Max out Forceful, done. It's much more liberating to have skills that can do whatever you need them to do instead of always hurting for points, like it happens with FATE Core. You can't have a superhero game without broad competencies, which Core doesn't have.
>>25285974That's an interesting advantage of FAE, but that doesn't necessarily mean Fate Core is completely invalidated. FAE is too samey in flavor, which is fine as an entry product, but Fate Core offers just enough extra complexity to make characters more diverse.
>>25286034You think? I've been playing in a Super Robot Wars FAE game as of late, and in spite of there being 3 groups of 6 nobody feels shown up. FAE is more complex than it looks, especially if you allow 'rule exception' stunts.
>>25286156Well, naturally it'll feel different if you allow other Fate Core mechanics. You could easily just play Fate Core as-is with Approaches if you're heading in that direction. I just don't think FAE's slant destroys Fate Core's quality as a game.
>>25286156>Super Robot Wars FAE game as of late, and in spite of there being 3 groups of 6 nobody feels shown upHard to be shown up when everyone plays exactly the same mechanically.
>>25285974>the baseline target to create an advantage is 3Is this even a rule?
>>25287079Nope.No opposition, roll against Mediocre.
>>25257581>not caring about imaginary creaturesDo you even Dorf Fortress (or Pikmin if you're new here)
>>25252239I feel like that. I like getting shit done.
>>25281624>No, I play RPGs to develop characters as well.Why not just a story about your character then?
>>25290519I thought /tg/ was all about NOT getting shit done.
>>25291105I don't like writing stories. It's more fun to develop characters as part of a game. That's not to say I won't do things like make character journals, but I don't have the patience or desire to write a story when a game is good enough.
>>25291207So you don't care so much about getting shit done in the game world, just how your character develops?
>>25292699It's about as unpopular an opinion as OP's, innit?
How's it going, Touhoufag?
>>25292699What? No, that's fine with me too. Character helps beget plot - by developing a character, I can further different plots as well as how they react to the main plot. I misspoke earlier.
Does /tg/ not know the meaning of "to each their own"?
>>25295731Considering all the bickering over "my tastes = god tier, your tastes = shit tier," nope.
>>25252239OP's opinion is toxic to the hobby because it's an inherently selfish one. You just want your character to become the badass legendary hero.Slice of life is better for roleplaying and for the group, because everyone needs to have an equal part in it.
>>25297694Why is it selfish? The whole group could want that for their characters.
>>25296183/tg/ needs to learn to use more objective arguments.
>>25294159I don't think that's really him...
>>25252239Hum, I feel almost the exact opposite way with how I typically play. I care far less on what the ends will be, if my char would be remembered in that world or save it. Reminds me of what once happened, I was playing a wanderer sort of person, compared to a guy-i-never-see-anymore playing a soldier. Soldier didn't care too much on his own character's dealings, or on what happened to him, he was dead set on finishing a goal he had in mind though. My character more acted to live in the moment, take note and do everything that happened. The result of all of these things were quite a few bar brawls between us two, as well as conflicting goals, usually ending up with our poor DM to basically handle two situations at once.Also, I personally am iffy on the idea of slice-of-life sessions. They tend to not fit in unless the game itself is highly comedic, otherwise things are rather boring.>>25275463Because for the OP to get what he wants, they basically have to beat his campaign. Or do some other crazy epic stuff. Things that are on the scale of the OP wanting is the very end of the road, something some folks like myself don't even worry about usually. It's a desire to achieve a long term goal, compared to the typical "Survive this fight, do this one thing, succeed at this" short term mentality, something that can be consistently rewarded and offered. What's more, it has to be something that will do that effect, not just a "Save the world or it will be gone forever" usually, because it won't leave a change and difference to the world. Basically, the DM has to not only make the goal something he'll go for, but for him he'll have to wait that long, and god knows if he'll even succeed at the end, or even reach it.A campaign we had was to destroy the criminal workings of a huge city, and we had small successes, character building and abound. But he would quickly grow bored of that, as we got more immersed in the city, trying to fix other things along the way.
>>25307123I hit post limit on the dot, anyway:What he would want is simply to go straight and solve the issue... then move on to the next city, fix something up there, screw resting or getting to know the folks there, getting rewards here only would equate to a better ability to do the next job to him. Basically, a workaholic adventurer towards large goals. Which is basically saying he wants to speed run through a campaign, because he'd get bored with the minor details that most others are entertained and remember.>>25297694It's not so much toxic to the hobby, more one that can't and shouldn't be focused upon. He made quite some mention that he wants him AND his crew to become the ones to fix a world, and solve it's problems like this. But if that's all he desires, then he just wants to end campaigns sooner than later, more because he cares about the ends, instead of the means or what happens in between. It's not specifically selfish, but his want to solve these problems and not caring about what comes within it can amount to wanting to skip to the end of a book where the heroes succeed over evil, because the middle parts of the lessons they learn, what they can do and how they change doesn't appeal to him. It's an unpopular opinion, and honestly I feel like the OP shouldn't be looking to tabletop RPG'n and stuff, because it seems like too much work and time to sift through things he rather not work on, to get to a single goal.>satisfaction unpossiblinSort of the worry I have for OP, thanks CaptchaAlso, slice of life is a bit nice for roleplaying in the group, but going through dangerous or otherwise sort of missions brings out what one should care about, or see, react, and the like from the group far better. It can drag on at times if or when a character has run out of material they want to go over, just as a single example.
>>25307255>It's not so much toxic to the hobby, more one that can't and shouldn't be focused upon. He made quite some mention that he wants him AND his crew to become the ones to fix a world, and solve it's problems like this. But if that's all he desires, then he just wants to end campaigns sooner than later, more because he cares about the ends, instead of the means or what happens in between. It's not specifically selfish, but his want to solve these problems and not caring about what comes within it can amount to wanting to skip to the end of a book where the heroes succeed over evil, because the middle parts of the lessons they learn, what they can do and how they change doesn't appeal to him. It's an unpopular opinion, and honestly I feel like the OP shouldn't be looking to tabletop RPG'n and stuff, because it seems like too much work and time to sift through things he rather not work on, to get to a single goal.I got the impression that its not that he wants to speedrun a campaign... It's that he wants to effect change. To leave a legacy, a lasting impression. Perhaps fame and glory.>It's an unpopular opinion, and honestly I feel like the OP shouldn't be looking to tabletop RPG'n and stuff, because it seems like too much work and time to sift through things he rather not work on, to get to a single goal.Then what the hell else could he do? Where else could he get this sort of thing? Videogames maybe, but those would be single-player and inflexible.Though honestly, I don't think "I want to make a character who will Save The Day(TM) or slay the dragon or whatever" is an *unpopular opinion*.Wanting to make a character and then do things with them... why would one say that that doesn't fit in with a roleplaying game?
>>25308231>Wanting to make a character and then do things with them... why would one say that that doesn't fit in with a roleplaying game?What if what I want my character to do is develop himself/herself through character interaction?
>>25313597Sure. That's fine.I'm just saying that this -->Wanting to make a character and then do things with them... why would one say that that doesn't fit in with a roleplaying game?-- is a reasonable thing to want from a game.That if that is what you want, its an acceptable reason to go for RPGs.
>>25278865>I had mentioned earlier in this thread that I have been working on a FATE mythic heroes game. It is actually a blend of FATE with Legends of the Wulin's combat system.I always thought FATE basically was the same thing as Wulin.
Unfortunately, bad GM can't bring themselves to give power to PC. Oh, they will always have a good reason: they want you to feel your characters, they want you to have deep and meaningful inner fight, they want you to appreciate the scenery, or whatever else they decided this year. I have met with an overwhelming large number of these fellows. Every time, it was the same reason underneath.Ultimately, they want you to stop playing the game because they are afraid of you.Bad GM can't improvize. They don't have the mastery of the game, or the setting, needed to react to a meaningful PC. They are afraid. You're doing something they didn't want: they are afraid. You're having fun by impacting the world, but they are afraid it's not their world anymore. They want you helpless. They want you lost. Because that's the only way they can control you and the game. In the end, that their own insecurities that prevents you to have fun.Of course, they will never say it like that. But it's always here, behind their words.
>>25314650Why would any GM be afraid of a player impacting the world?That sounds beta as fuck.
>thread started tuesday>it is now saturday>anime girls and 2hu everywhereIt's like I'm in old /tg/ again. It's...beautiful
>>25314699You're a bad GM. You're sweating. Every eyes are on you. You don't quite have the mastery of the setting. You are lost in the rules. Every thing is going too quickly, the players are getting bored.Then this player ask if he can take on the journey of freeing a country you don't even remember it existed on behalf of a god you barely recall having read on.You say no. No. NO.Make it twenty times, and you have an automatic reaction. PC shouldn't try to do something meaningful. Too much work. Too difficult. They shouldn't. It's deeply ingrained in them, and soon they can't even think otherwise, last they admit their own fear and insecurity.In some circle, these GM can number for 60% or 70% of the GM. Though not in all fortunately.
>>25314732Maybe /tg/ is reverting to type?
>>25314797How can a player convince a GM to stop being like that?
>>25319550By just following the GM's plot.
>>25314650>>25314797What a bizarre strawman.GMs who want control of everything just railroad you into following their plot. Said plots, in my experience, are usually over-the-top adventuring and/or fantasy-politics starring DMPCs.On top of *that*, GMs with a poor grasp of the setting and/or poor ability to improvise are much more likely to be able to work with setting-spanning details, like the presence of a particular country or deity, than the layout and character interactions of a small town/city block/relevant-administrative-region: ceteris paribus, the former will have been in the core book, and the latter won't.>>25314732Pic expressing OP's sentiments, then?
>>25321621But that's not stopping it, it's just avoiding it!
Both can be fun. Some of the best moments I've ever had in my time playing RPG just involved two characters sitting in the back shooting the shit while the face character masturbated in the corner as those sorts tend to do. I've also had immense getting up to stupid hijinks that have no real bearing on the world around us - just because its fun to do and makes the character feel like a real person. I do like setting up powerful alliances, toppling (or raising!) the big evil dictatorship and working to truly change the face of the game world, but that isn't the be all end all of roleplaying Anyone who restricts themselves just to that is truly missing out.
>>25324650>while the face character masturbated in the corner as those sorts tend to do. Now anon, that's uncalled for!
>>25323669It's the DMPC star that bugs me more than the railroading.
>>25323669Why don't these beta GMs make their own settings, then?
>>25252239As a player, I like this. And as a GM I've facilitated this. I've got a harder time, normally, with getting into a character's head or facilitating this for my players. I'm kind of curious how it works, when it works. What tricks would I need to learn, as GM, to cover that relative weak spot?
>>25331708Don't come to the table with the plot in mind.Write a plotline only after you see the players' intended goals and desires for their characters.
>>25331708Play a game like FATE.
I definitely love the idea of the party having made some impact in the setting; the one campaign I always wax lyrical about is the ZeFRS campaign I played in a few years ago.We got directly involved in the problems of certain NPCs, for good and for ill, protecting villages and communities, as well as incurring the wrath of various factions when they realised we were magnets for all kinds of weird shit.
>>25340554>bumping this thread 6 hours later>just let it die already
>>25340564There's some good discussion going on.
>>25340554ZeFRS?What's that game and setting? And what impact did you have on it?
>>25253831Easy, he hates paragraphs and loves spamming ellipses because he's 2deep.
>>25341520http://www.midcoast.com/~ricekrwc/zefrs/As to the impact our party had, it was mainly that there was this huge metaplot, like there is in Deadlands and 7th Sea, and our PCs were often heavily involved in it. So say we had an impact might be overstating things a touch, but our actions definitely had consequences.It'd be really hard to explain any further without giving you a complete recap of the entire campaign.
>>25342918Hang on, there was one pretty good example...The party rolled up into this city where children had gone missing. Turns out there was some witch in some cave on a nearby island, who wanted to sacrifice them to some asshole demon. Fortunately, she got curb stomped by us before she could do anything.Party's back in the town, having a nice dinner from the mayor as a thank you for saving the kids. The kids bring out the food, and before he leaves, one of the boys turns to us and says "Thanks for saving me from the witch!"It was a little moment, but it was a little moment that MEANT something to us.
>>25344658You have an awesome DM. Just FYI.
mfw I misplace a thread and find it three days later.>>25284768The consequences I mean are things like people or groups left in control of the populace, for good or ill. Communities saved or dfestroyed and the ramifications of that. Returning to find out what happend to the peaceful tribe of gnolls you left to their own devices. The PCs went through the world and did impressive things. There should be consequences. Be it good or bad.
>>25340564You used greentext wrong.
>>25344658>The kids bring out the food, and before he leaves, one of the boys turns to us and says "Thanks for saving me from the witch!"This.This is what I play RPGs for.
>>25352317Receiving smiles from shotas?
>>25354580Well you don't say it that way!
>>25357445Kongratulations from kids?
>>25358618Kongratulations are what you get from apes.
>>25349331There's always the archive's search function, and the catalog....but how do you misplace a thread?
>>25252365>Also RPG stories are always bad. "You should have been there it was so cool" is one of the worst things anyone can say.But why are THAT GUY stories more popular?
>>25365501>But why are THAT GUY stories more popular?People love to hate.Also we feel better about our own behaviour if we know other people are much worse.