Previous thread: >>24581870We last left off with a nice axe dump and a brief discussion about ideal timeframes to set the corebook around, and some delicious shots of a kris.OP pic is a typical 16th century tosei-gusoku armor. Laminar plate cuirass (Okegawa-do), laced lames for spaulders and tassets, kikko kneeguards, mail and plates on the sleeves and greaves, full kabuto with hoate.
How well will this system cover the warfare of the sengoku period of Japan? I remember seeing a supplement for Riddle of Steel for just that but I'm pretty sure it was a fanmade thing.
>>24599027One of the guys who was working on such a fan supplement is planning to, when the time comes, help get the Sengoku supplements written and perfected. I believe there was another guy who also had a degree in Japanese history who wanted to help, too.
>>24598844Fuck me, that's hilarious.
>>24599027We intend to release a supplement detailing Japanese equipment from several eras, and we are taking ourselves rather seriously on that count, to give it a good, realistic depiction and not a stereotypical one.There's a lot of misinformation and hearsay about this subject in particular, so we're going to consult experts to ensure that we can give you guys an accurate period resource that you can use to play a more realistic sort of game.In the core game, it's still up in the air as to whether or not we're going to stick a few weapons wildly out of our basic period and locale in there, or leave them to be detailed more completely later so that we don't have confusing mechanical conflicts with later releases.TL;DR, You might have to wait for a supplement, but it will focus entirely on Japan in one or multiple eras. Rome, Greece, Napoleanic France, Deluge Poland, these are all also on the list.
>>24599126This is *extremely* good news. Particularly good to hear coming off of last night where there was a truly awful katana argument.
>>24599126Waiting for a supplement is cool with me, bro. Maybe throw some of the more unique weapons in the core book (they don't have to be as detailed as they'd get in a supplement, you can just say the supplement rules replace the core rules, like how GURPS does things) and I could reskin most of the armour and stuff myself until a supplement comes out. I wouldn't mind if there was just a little line under the warhammer saying "Similar Weapons: Tetsubo", and using warhammer stats until the tetsubo stats are released. They're not exactly the same thing, but it'll do in a pinch.A teppo was a smaller caliber than a European matchlock of the time, but it's not a big enough deal that you can't use the same stats for them until specific teppo stats come out, if you even judge the difference is large enough to merit different stats to begin with.tl;dr no problems there, keep up the good work.
>>24599222>A teppo was a smaller caliber than a European matchlock of the timeCertainly not to the degree I remember GURPS Low-tech making them, though. I've seen teppo bores and they were most certainly not tiny .47 caliber things.
>>24599235If it was me doing this system, I would probably just use the same exact stats for the two guns, because the difference wasn't THAT huge. I'd put more of a difference in the Japanese upgrades to the basic matchlock design than in its barrel specifics.
Welp Song of Swords thread
>>24599192Always glad to please. Pointless arguments about historical minutia is one of the traditions that gave rise to this noble hobby. We try to stay out of it, but hey, if people are arguing about it, it's because they care about it, right?>>24599222That's about the idea we had. Put some iconic stuff in there as a teaser, but go into real depth in a dedicated release. I prefer this method myself, going into great detail on one subject is a lot easier and gives you a lot more elbow room than trying to cover everything at once. Plus, I think it'll make it a lot less cumbersome for people to set up a campaign. "I'm feeling Japan," John Everyman says."Well here you go," John Galt replies, and hands him a book with JAPAN written on it in bold letters, "that's all you need." There's something beautifully simple about it.Related note, we've taken on a new team member because the labor pipeline was starting to get a bit constrictive. Great guy, speeding things up immensely. So pretty soon, possibly before Galt's next Fecht, we'll have a Character Creation alphaup for you guys to play with. Not as good as a proper beta, of course, but enough to get a feel for how characters are made and what the power level is at startup.
>>24599126Oh hi. Japanese helper here. Anxiously awaiting not being a useless meatbag.
I gotta say, It would be very helpful to have ready statistics for some of the most iconic/known/wanted weapons across nearby times and locales in the basic book. So I can play an traveling Arab in HRE trying to gut ppl.
>>24599374Well, some of it is just trolls trying to get a rise out of the people who legitimately do care one way or the other. But still, pretty much.
>>24599375And we look forward to working with you, when the time comes. Experts who you can actually talk to are worth four you can read in a book.
>>24599421<3I'll keep my citations ready.
>>24599374>Character Creation alpha up for you guys to play withYou mean break horrendously and force you to spend hours fixing?
>>24599510Is that not the /tg/extbook definition of 'play'?
> So pretty soon, possibly before Galt's next Fecht, we'll have a Character Creation alphaup for you guys to play withYES
Any idea will SoS have the beautiful froggie helmet? It looks so pretty.
I'm personally looking forward to a good system for tilting.This may include rennacting A Knight's Tale
>>24599711>that spoilerThis is a noble cause.You have my lance.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMLiqEqMQyQ
Well, seems I got in on this business a little late. Still, I'll ask whether there'll be room for a few smaller, humbler blades in this here thread? All I have to bring is "puukko", the Finnish sort of general all-around tool and universal solution to difference of opinion, faith, right of passage, the language barrier, favourite colour, who gets the last flask of brännvin, and Sweden.Here we have another example of a more old-fashioned "tool knife". These used to be called "mummonhammas", or "grandmother's tooth", as they would be passed on from active working men to their grandmothers who often suffered from having lost their teeth over time, thus becoming an aid to digestion rather than anything else. Of course, it would be noted that grandmothers with such teeth generally proved to be rather difficult to rob, manhandle, or even disagree with, which everyone generally agreed to be a welcome and reasonable state of things.
>>24599746I remember some of Galt's old RoS fechts involving guys with knives that ended exactly as nastily as you would expect.
>>24599777I'll confess, I remember it roughly. There was a naked Finn out of his sauna, I think, and a confused Serb who had become victim of involuntary transportation through time and space. Alas, it was the Serb's day, but such is life in Finland in general. Once you point your knife at a fellow man, it is only a matter of time until a stronger fighter shows up.Here we have a historical "two-mean", or "hermaphrodite" knife from Vöyri, on the west coast of Finland, circa 1750 or later. You can see very strong foreign influence, from Swedish and especially German sources thanks to the influence of the Hanseatic league of the time. The sheath form and the brasswork lead strongly from the dagger sheaths of nobility, and generally speaking it is apparent that the weapon in question has developed as a signifier of wealth and status for a common bearer, and generally speaks of unabashed ambitions over the "common man".
>>24599887A modern hand-crafted Vöyri knife. Well-fitting a wealthy merchant's or a landowner's means. Handiwork of one Teuvo Sorvari.
>>24599887I think it was a Finn and a Croat. The Serb fought the Scottsman. I remember because of the WHO IS DEADLIEST picture.
>>24599919That might well be it. It was in one of those many brief spurts of vitality fect threads have enjoyed over time.Here we have a "Härmä" knife, from the Southern Ostro-Bothnia region, famous for its gentleman farmers who had most charming and gentle ways of life, knives involved. This pair in particular is made by Jorma Rannanjärvi, whose cousin supposedly carried it. We know this fair fellow from a song about him, Antti Rannanjärvi, and his namesake Antti Isotalo, both jovial and friendly fellows. The knife itself was certainly no beauty, but it was found to be functional.
>>24600001And here we have the two gentlemen smiling for the camera. You can tell they were quite well under the public eye for them to have the influence required to get photographed in those remote and regions often removed from the march of technology.Look at those merry smiles. What nice people they must have been.
>>24600020Dear god they look like they're playing Battleshits.
>>24600039And whoever wins gets to walk free?
>>24600121Indeed.I wonder, will SoS eventually include some of the crazier Chinese weapons?
>>24600031Brassworking certainly changes the appearance of a knife thoroughly, doesn't it? They're generally seen in "region knives" meant to show abundance and art. Rather than jewel knives, they tend to be overly showy, and as such good gifts and ceremonial items. Such showiness does not suit the Finnish eye for "decency" in appearance, afterall, and once upon a time a man could have very well found himself forced to wield a knife like this just for its unfitting looks. The nail that sticks out, afterall!Ah, speaking of region knives, here is a beautiful brassworked piece from Ari Hänninen, which took the third place in the 2010 national knife-crafting competition. It does bother me that I have no larger image of it, as the details of the item in question would benefit from closer inspection quite a bit.
>>24600133I've actually used some of the more exotic weapons like Hookswords. They're very ineffectual if you don't have a lot of training. It's surprisingly easy to hurt yourself even with practice dulls and surprisingly hard to hurt your enemy unless you get some guidance. They're not intuitive at all and require tons of rote memorization.
>>24600213Unsurprising. They're much like urumi in that way. Still, might be interesting.
>>24600140Finally, here we have a modern knife by famed Yrjö Puronvarsi, whose handiwork seems to be selling quite a bit even today, and internationally. You can recognize his signature "rune" easily. There's also been talk about younger enthusiasts perhaps... well, copying his style and signature, for perhaps a small profit. For shame.Also, I happened upon an old video of his crafting at his workshop. The tools and the materials are modern, as we can see, but the sense for steel and the proper shape is there.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_SMCCmBmZwI'll pipe down for now, so as to not selfishly drown the thread.
>>24600308please don't, talk more
>>24600243Yeah, I just wanted to chime that in. In a game mechanic way, this would probably translate to harder/longer proficiencies. Or more penalties at lower proficiencies. Shitfuck it hurts to get hit by one.Also the Urumi. I've tried with a practice rubber urumi (same weight, thickness and overall bend) and it was hell as fuck. Surprisingly, it does impart a large enough force to cut, which was something that seemed unintuitive for the weapon. The trick was not doing their bullshit kata they kept trying to teach me and just hurling it directionally like a flail. Apparently the kata is for discipline, versus other urumi, and some other misc stuff. Fuck that, in battle if stuck with that thing, I'd use it like a flail.
>>24600362From what I've seen, the cuts from an urumi are almost never all that deep, either.
>>24598986Ypu have it right, but we called them "moros" since the first time, Moor it's the English term.
>>24600395They aren't. At least in my limited and non-lethal experience. I saw the live demonstration by an expert and he was able to make a few shallow lacerations on one of those Everlast dummy busts. But the key element I noticed was the ease with which he aimed at vulnerable areas like the neck, the armpit, and groin. Right at the major arteries. So yeah, it's a pretty shallow weapon that cuts with range. Definitely play to its strengths and don't try to do anything fancy or out of the scope of the tool.It's also totally invalidated by armoring completely.
>>24600458Aren't they largely ceremonial weapons anyway?
>>24600476I'm sorry but I can't actually speak to this and be telling the truth. My knowledge of these types of weapons lies in testing them scientifically. For historical accuracy, I'm mostly limited to some European and Japanese stuff. I do know that they are at least used in ceremony though.
>>24600330Oh, but it wouldn't be fair. To be completely honest, I am trying to bait a willing and active person into setting up a nice, artful knife fight for us. Maybe one involving one of >>24600020, the jolly pair of friends I spoke earlier. There is a song that is still very well-known and loved among the people regarding the two, of how they agree that one will murder the local lensmann, a sort of a trustee or "headsman", while the other gets to marry his "handsome widow". Here, the song is in Finnish, but maybe it'll help you into the spirit of a good puukko evening.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ci7dk6vBT0According to the song, a very particular technique of using the knife was to grapple the vic- uh, opponent by the back of the neck by one hand, turn them around back towards the wielder, and either "whittle" their back there and then or to turn them over a tree stump and work them there. Admittedly, this sounds a lot more like torture or murder than a fight. And to render a sense of reality to the story, the tool imaged in >>24600001 is supposed to be the very same pair carried by one of these jolly fellows.Pictured is a set of "triplets" by Antti Rannanjärvi, a descendant of the gentleman on the left in the earlier photograph. The inherited stylistical details are very, very easy to recognize - finesse, on the other hand, has developed.
>>24600499Fair enough--and I suppose really just because certain ceremonies might involve it doesn't mean the weapon itself was PURELY ceremonial. (Down that road of assumption lies the path of the katana hate threads)
>>24600525Yeah...I try to abstain from fallacious antecedent assumptions.Also, and Odin I hope I'm not drudging up a can of worms here, what do you mean the path of the katana hate threads?
>>24600541Oh, one of the recurring memes in those threads is that the katana was never a weapon used in actual warfare, but just for ceremony and dueling.It is, of course, bunk.
>>24600308In my country the "navaja" was the most normal item to be carried in yourself since more or less the XVII if you weren't a noble, normally carried in the gridle. Some were portable short-swords/machetes, other were used for everyday life, other had specialized function (like the castration ones) and others were decoration more or less.Mor or less was part of the everyday Spanish dress until the 1980, when the common criminals knowed as "Navajeros" tainted the image.
>>24600574This was something that came up in last night's wild and woolly katana thread, sadly.
>>24600574It was used in warfare, but by the time it came around, there were few periods left of "good" (by japanese standards) smithing for it left. There were, however, a lot of years of poorly made swords.It was used in combat, but it was used differently than its predecessors. The problem is that, according to historical records that I've seen at least, it's very difficult to find any live specimens that confirm their use as an effective tool of war. Which seems odd since you'd just assume that's what a sword is. But it only seems odd if you look at it and start at the premise "It looks like a sword, therefore it was a tool of war". It's a pretty fallacious premise. What we actually have to do is start with no premise and prove positive premises like this with historical data. Now, document evidence /does/ exist for their use. Though they were...correct me if I'm wrong, largely part of an era of relative peace compared to before (Mongol attacks stopped) and so it got a lot less battle use if any. If there are any physical swords left over, they must be in a Japanese museum I don't have any access to or within the original owning families. All katana I've physically held were dull, rusted, or dull-clean (ceremonial).Who can really say? The biggest problem I've found studying Japanese history is that the Japanese often recorded falsities from multiple sources (see Ninja before the Tokugawa shogunate) which makes a lot of their history indescribable from mythology.But you can only get as accurate as you can get.
>>24600582>Dat Grammar.More coffee it's needed. Well, the navaja can varies a lot, parts of spain had they own types (like the Maragata ones, the Sevillana, the Ripollesa, Taramundi, and of Course Albacete) and the length varied a lot, since a few cm to a m. Normally the ones made this days are between 5-6 cm to 12cm because laws, but in the XVII and XVIII they tended to be a lot larger.
>>24600663Well, the katana gets its start around 1400 AD or thereabouts, which was still in the koto period. Most Sengoku katana are still koto rather than shinto, at least (and this makes sense--weapons for nobles going to actual war are likely going to be the best quality you can afford to make).I know there are some katana that have actual combat notching here and there, both on the edge and on the spine (parrying). ...Hm. KM, are you still out there? If so, do you have anything to chime in with?
>>24600663>indescribable*indiscernible Fuck you firefox that's a word.
>>24600723You want the full blow? I can pop out my book and give it a shot if anyone cares. And...if you all promise not to shitstorm?Who's KM?
>>24600735A tripfriend who posts often in arms and armor threads, and sometimes in these threads too. He does something MOST people in arms and armor arguments don't: brings actual sources to back up what he says.
>>24600723I have seen a really old one that had the marks of combat. I think some of the arguments are that it turned in to a ceremonial weapon, not that it always was one.
>>24600754Yeah, I'll do that right now if you like. I have some pretty neat facts/reads that are specific. I don't enjoy discussing arms and armor without sources because it feels hollow.
>>24600582>"Navajeros"Ah, I commiserate. Ours were the "puukkojunkkarit", to whom I have alluded throughout my tirade about the knives in this thread.Alas, it is not only the special cases that have tainted the Finn's reputation in relation to their knives. The connection of readily available blades, alcohol, quick tempers, depressive personalities, and often adversity or disagreement have been well-documented. Indeed, stabbings still run above the European average.Heck, I remember of my highschool years a particular hardhead, who would drink himself to a coma every weekend and get into fights or outright assault folks for no reason other than that it was in his nature, and that he was strong enough to do it. When I asked him why he carried a small knife, self defense perhaps, his answer was simply "No, in case I lose a fight."He was deemd to be a case not even the police could apparently effect. Alas, one weekend a group of gentlemen tired of his antics took him for a ride, and when returned home a few days later he had turned most serene and calm, if not even strangely effeminate, in a matter which turned out to be permanent.Here we have a Kauhavan "jewel knife", crafted by one Kustaa Lammi at the youthful age of 84. Quite pleasing to the eye.
>>24600690And some types. You can have a few types of folding mechanism, since the "carraca", the most used in the old days, to the ring ones for the ones made in france or some very simples. And of course the blade varies a lot. Those are the types most made in Albacete in the XX century.
>>24600768>it turned in to a ceremonial weapon, not that it always was one.This is absolutely true. It definitely turned into a ceremonial weapon at least partially. And it was documented in battle at least partially.
>>24600768That's the actuality of it, yes. Edo period katana were moooostly ceremonial, and this is reflected in the downturn of blade quality that marks the transition from koto to shinto.>>24600777Sweet.
>>24600794>>24600802If I knew it could help people win internet arguments I would have bought the thing.
>>24600781This is very fascinating. I am seeing similar development as in puukko, as types and forms spring from all parts of the country indigenously, and people become to associate a sort of pride with their own style, especially in professions where they are in regular use. I am seeing a great deal of heft for chopping and cutting action in these blades, as well as the sort of short and formed blade I associate with leatherworking, cobbling, tanning, skinning, butchering and the like. Finnish puukko have their straighter and somewhat stubby form from the material they were mostly intended to bite, which being wood. Do post more, I think I've exhausted my energy for posting for now.
>>24600802I tell you what though, even the shinto period of sword manufacture was a damn sight better than the awful quality of most showato. (Though the kyu gunto at the bottom here is pretty nice, I think.)
Okay here I go. Trip because it seems relevantThe Shinto or New Sword period c. 1596-1781, brought a steady decline in the combat effectiveness of blades. The swords were deemed “new” (derogatory) because forging techniques were radically changed. Gokaden (five great smiths) used local ores processed by themselves, but the Shinto smiths used mostly metal obtained from a central source in Sanin (modern day Shimane). European steel was more accepted at this time and significantly changed Japanese sword smithing. The smiths without many of the professional scruples combined scrap iron with central source ore and forced terribly inferior blades. Shinto blades are readily distinguished from Koto blades: Koto are silvery blue and their curvature is rather pronounced. Shinto blades are slightly yellowish on the metal and are far less curved, owing to being forged during a time of relative peace. Rather, Shinto blades had more import placed upon the external beauty qualities in the blades rather than their efficacy. Artisans even specialized in engraving (going so far as to engrave out much of the balance).Sources:>W.G. Aston, “Nihongi” book XXV, 12>Gordon Warner / Donn Draeger “Japanese Swordsmanship”, ch1Keep going Shinto or change to how the curved sword was "invented"?
>>24600582This puts Pedro Navaja into way better context.
>>24600988Either one. Though strangely I've seen a few late koto blades with curves not all that terribly sharp--almost always less sharply curved than the old tachi swords, certainly.
>>24600988Oh god I'll format that better next time. I typed it up in Word first so I wouldn't have to scroll up in the reply box. It's just one block of text :S
>>24601006As someone who may or may not be named Navaja, what does this mean, and how do you know my uncle?
>>24601029Your name means Switchblade, and your uncle is a character in a Salsa song about a guy who murks some bitch in an alley.
>>24600988Fascinating. It is interesting that in peacetime, they became less curved, one would think that it would be the other way around.I suppose the obvious lead in question is the curve business, how did that come about?
>>24601084Actually there's a reason for it. Curving a sword takes a lot of skill and concentration. Failing at best means you start all over with the same piece and at worst (common) you scrap it and begin with new ore....yeahh. Remember how I said Shinto smiths were less skilled than the Gokaden?So of course they were less curved because it was easier all around. Well I say that, but what I really mean is "harder to smith a proper curve for the blade". As it's pretty easy to overcurve it and screw up the blade anyway.So do you want me to continue forward with Shinto or describe how this all started? I got all night (I saw the abandoned clown train car again...that's okay, I didn't want to sleep anyway)
>>24600778In Spain it's a bit like this too, but normally you ahd to mix a few of them to get a fight, the Navaja was everywhere (since your typical farmer to whores and pimps), quick temper, alcohol(kids start to drink since they are teens, I seen boys from 9 years smashed in some festivities), honour (since not so long ago honour was more important than live for a lot of people, and fights and such were pretty frequent) and politics. We prefer to party than fight, but you still will get mugged in some parts at knife point, be Gypsies or Canis(our white-trash) but it's rare. Now days we have Romanian gypsies and wannabe gangster from other parts of the world as your typical petty criminal, but like I said in the '80 we had a problem with Navajeros,we even create a whole movie genere based on them, the Kinkis. Here, the actors were very much petty criminals themselves.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53svmmvJrv4I apologize for the shabby song, but was more or less the music they listened.
>>24601104How it started, if you please. I feel as though the subject of shinto will be depressing.
>>24601104Mechanically wise, though, a lesser curve makes for a more effective weapon for stabbing at vulnerable points in armor.
>>24601029Well, means folded-knife. And Pedro Navaja it's a song, here.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PqX3L5Am_8Pic related, Navajas (sword point if I recall well).
>>24601129More Pedros for your Pesos.
>>24601105I don't mind it at all. It's all history, and knives tend to have history that... well, goes through the back alleys and bad music a lot. You know the bits of "music" I posted earlier.You folks have actual cities and the like down there, with that urbane and dangerous feeling about it, but ours is nearly completely rural. And I admit that even the shut-mouthed, dour Finns prefer partying over fighting. The guys in the photographs actually supposedly got into a great deal of their innumerable fights because they were known to be the meanest and biggest louts around, so they were purposefully selected to "keep order" in parties, weddings, dances and the like.Here we have the traditional suits of the Southern Ostro-Bothnian region. The relevant pieces of dress are well-represented at all ages.
>>24600865Do you have a grafic with the different puukos? I liked the knife because was so simple (and so beautiful), but well, I don't know much about Finland, so a bit of history can be cool too.Here the typical Navajas from Catalonia/Catalunya. Without counting the ones made in the French part.
>>24601112It is ;_;. It's the start of the permanent decline of Japanese smithing.Let’s start with how the curved sword got to Japan and gloss over the tsurugi straight swords inherited from China. In the 8th century, a craftsman named Amakuni made a piece called the Little Crow. This is one of the first documented (to my knowledge) curved swords made by a Japanese. Curved swords are called “tachi” by the Japanese, to distinguish them from their bretheren, the tsurugi. Japanese fighting evolved this shape naturally over the battlefield, rather than through any sort of art or ceremony. The tachi are ideally suited to the rigorous requirements of horse-back fighting. Specifically, the late 8th century was marked by high degree of cavalry warfare. A blade needs to be stable when stroke from horseback, and capable of gaining heavy force without losing too much of it on strike (unlike melee, typically a single horseback stroke has to be immediately recovered and followed up due to the speed carrying you to your next opponent), and also without getting stuck in bone or flesh.Curved blades are uniquely suited to all of these requirements. The more curved, generally the better. And the longer, generally the better (more reach from horseback). The style of its use avoided suki (gaps in defenses when cutting) because of its ground-to-sky trajectory. Unlike a straight blade which has to use a sky-to-ground trajectory to gain any force. Curved swords were equally effective even when drawn upward, and closed the gaps on one’s side as it was drawn. The forces of impact also left curved swords less susceptible to breakage and chipping than straight blades, which unevenly distribute momentum while on horseback. Tachi were far far longer (4 feet or slightly less).It was a complicated machine though. All the force raining down on the tang could break it if forged improperly. On top of that, it had to be lightweight and perfectly balanced.>Cont (same sources)
>>24601209I certainly wish I had, but alas, I don't think a proper collection of different styles and types of knives has been done since the beginning of the internet era. I might find it more easily in the local library, and that tells a lot.I'll try posting some "maakuntapuukko" or "region knife", which basically are pieces meant to show - and embellish - the style of knife local to the smith's home region. It also has to be remembered that Finland is very sparsely populated, and in scattered form, so knives that traditionally were born of significant population centres may today represent a small backwater village.As an example, here's a knife from Kauhava. The Kauhavan knives are known for the horse-head hilt motif, for at least some centuries now. Unsurprisingly, we are again at the southern Bothnia region.
>>24601260If the Southern Bothnian knives are elaborate and well-decorated, then the North-Bothnian knives can be considered the other extreme. This is a traditional "tuorlainen", a knife from Pyhäjärvi, in more northern Ostro-Bothnia. There's absolutely nothing done in vain in it, but to be honest, it's rather dry to look at.
>>24601192you jackin our style?
>>24601279I like it, it feels more a true tool than the other one. Perhaps isn't as pretty but it will do the job. Ostro-Bothnian it's the part they speak Swedish? Because in the map I'm looking they live very near Sweden.
>>24601280I'm not sure where this style of yours originates from, but all I can say is that you have good dress sense.Here we have a pair of region knives from Toijala, more to the south, from Pirkanmaa region. Handiwork of Jan Flink, actually manufactured in Jämsä rather than Toijala. Somehow they just wound up as the symbol of the other location. Also, as you can see, these knives haven't just laid on the fireside, but have been busily used in everyday work.
>>24601213cont. (same sources as before)It's important to note that there is [no accurate historical evidence] about a mounted warrior's actual techniques during this particular period. Though we do know how the sword was shaped and can easily guess how it must have been used for maximum efficiency. There are pieces of information we do know though. Such as the tachi being suspended from its scabbard edge-down, to facilitate the upward draws, and on the left side at the hip.Yasutsuna Saburodayu and his son, Ohara Sanemori were excellent smiths during the transition from straight to curved blades. Yasutsuna's most famous example, the Dojigiri (pictured) can give a basis for the understanding of just how monstrously effective and brutal these blades were. Supposedly, this blade was made for a hero-shogunate named Sakanoue Tamuramaro. This is an important development, and among others, helped the founding of the Gokaden, or five great smith traditions. They are:>Yamato>Yamashiro>Soshu>Bizen>MinoAbout 80% of all swords known as koto (old swords) were made by smiths adhering to these traditions. Technically koto refers to any sword from the 9th century to 1596. Before this is the Jokoto period, and after this is the Shoto period (forged with different methods completely and imported iron).The Yamato style being the first actual style, was founded by Shigehiro and Yukinobu, and their swords were stereotypical of having slim graceful lines, a pronounced curvature, and a thick cross-section.The originally crude but effective Yamashiro style were changed by the aristocracy to be more refined. They became slim, gracefully curved, thinner in cross-section than Yamato, though equally efficient. Kojaki Munechika is credited with the founding of Yamashiro and his most famous blade is Little Fox. At about the end of 14th century, Yamato and Yamashiro become nearly indistinguishable blades from each other.
>>24601314Hmm, they are slightly falcec because the times they were sharpened no? Not because the blade it's in that style.
>>24601329Bizen's the only style of those I remember hearing mentioned around these parts before.Still find it a little strange that there wasn't as much straightening of the katana while it was still being produced as a weapon for actual infantry combat.
>>24601329So I can go to Kamakura period and talk about the most excellent Japanese swords ever got, go back to the Shotos or end here if no one is still interested (or if Rome is pissed that I'm hogging his thread)
>>24601364We are having a small knife talk too, so go ahead. I'm interested in the Kamakura period, and then in the Early katanas (Eshin inspired no?).
>>24601308A lot of folks speak Swedish, and are a genuine minority. Also, people on the border area travel across and mingle rather leisurely and freely. The more "Swedish" Swedish minority is, in my opinion, located in Åland and the south-eastern archipelago.Ah, in regards to the Pyhäjärvi knife, the name "tuorlainen" comes from its creator. The prolific smith, Samuli Tuoriniemi, who gained most of his fame for his cheap and readily available knives, but also by his hand-wrought muzzleloader guns. His knives were known to cost 1 Finnish mark apiece, 60 pennies for the smaller ones, so they were ordered across the country simply because people considered the then-high post expenses worth it.Now, I apologize beforehand, but once you start talking with a Finn, you can count for the war to come up. You see, the wartime was strange in the fashion that it did not really produce a greater need for knives, simply because during the dull trench warfare, the stationed men began producing them in abundance simply out of idleness. Like this knife, many of the "war knives" were produced from scraps left behind by "the neighbour"'s unfortunate airplanes. War knives often also have tales attached to them, of one kind or the other, but I found the older folks possessing them reluctant to speak of them. Image related, crafted in the trenches from downed Russian airplane scraps. Knives of the wartime are especially known of their individuality, as men would pour themselves to making them.
>>24601357Yeah check out how the MOMENT you get to Shinto on the timeline, they suddenly get really straight.
>>24601380Indeed, though I find it *incredibly* annoying that there's only one example of a koto period katana on the list there.
>>24601395Dude what? There's like six examples. You mean Jokoto? Because that's what annoyed me.>No tsurugi
>>24601395Well, even that one doesn't have a curve so crazy that it'd be impossible to make an accurate thrust with.
>>24601416Only one of them is a katana (edge facing left), the rest are tachi (edge facing right).
>>24601416Nevermind. I re-read. Missed a critical word.
>>24601364 I have been reading along as I work, as this is a subject of great interest to me, and the knives provide nice contrast. Please continue, I relish the information.
>>24601420Yeah I missed the word "katana" in that sentence. Also it's a shitty example too. >That tang size
>>24601331I can't say for sure what the smith's intention is, but as you can see in >>24600778, some smiths tend to leave an unsharpened "finger proof" under the hela, called "palko". Also, the part right at the stump of the blade is often handy for carving small chips used for lighting fires, so it may have been left sharpened but more pronounced in anticipation of heavier sharpening. Sometimes you see old knives that have a very thin "neck" developed at the end of the blade, such as in >>24599746. It also keeps the hilt's neck out of contact - ideally, if not always concretely.Pictured is another war knife, made to pass the time. Its shape is distinctly different from ordinary crafting knives, and on its backside are 13 crosses, for which no story was forthcoming though.
>>24601379Tha'ts pretty cool, a knife with an history behind it's a lot more interesting. And trench wars produced some rad pieces of art.Talking about war and heroes, does Simo Häyhä has his own knife?
>>24601432Yeah, the tang on that one makes me think it's actually a converted tachi that had its tang shaved down for mounting into katana furniture.
HERE'S a good koto era katana. Bizen school, forged by a smith named Sukesada in 1579.
>>24600723Not the guy you were talking to, but didn't Miyamoto Musashi point out the uses of different weapons in his book of five rings?He's a Samurai that advocates the gun as well.I do think the man would have loved European rapier style swords though, since he does talk about the absolute need to be able to hold the katana with one hand because of the circumstances in which you may want to use it.But on the other hand, to think that Samurai would do the complete opposite of European forces at the time, namely to forgo long spears and polearms in favour of swords because... reasons I guess, is a bit silly too.Of course people who wore swords would use them, in combat too, but that's not to say that it's their main weapon. (And hell, Japanese spears were beautiful weapons, there's no shame in using one.)
>>24601439Simo Häyhä was supposedly a farmer and a woodsman, so I would believe he had, and spent, many a knife over his life.But to be honest, he was also a modest man who detested the attention he received. And it is always important to remember that there are no heroes in war, so we should not dwell on individuals. Other than the unknown soldier, at the very least.That aside, sailors were folk who always needed a good knife. They were also a sad example in that it was Finnish sailors who also established the international reputation of the knife. Here we have a nice example of ingenuity - the seas were a hostile enviroment to knives, especially untreated wooden hilts, so as long as the blade and tang survived, even a length of rope would suffice.Also, to put credit where credit belongs, I am sourcing a great deal of my information from the writings of one Tapio Kuortti, a modern scholar of knives.
>>24601500Yep, pretty much. You know how European pikemen, arquebusiers, crossbowmen, and the like almost always have a sword at their hip in addition to their main weapon? Katana in warfare performed the same job.
>>24601429Well I guess it's a good way to see what I can bring to the table. Continuing with Kamakura.Let's talk about the Zenith of that Nihonto! In about the 12th century, there was a huge conflict between two warring families, the Minamoto and the Taira. Their conflict caused smiths of only the highest caliber to be recognized, due to constant use of the blades on the battlefield. Minamoto Yoshitsune was a field general and strategist. He obtained his blade, the Kimi Banzai, from Tomonari of Bizen tradition. His victory over the Taira caused the subsequent years of smiths endlessly working to perfect their craft and created almost a Darwinian atmosphere for the martial efficacy of blades. Thus, the subsequent blades far outclassed the quality of the periods before.Emperor Gotoba (late 12th century to early 13th century) insisted on personally overseeing improvements to weapons. As it stood, the emperor himself was an accomplished smith who produced some of the hallmarks of all Nihonto in history along with his peers Hisakuni of Yamashiro tradition and Norimune of Bizen tradition. Gotoba actually called the best smiths in Japan in and had them restudy all the techniques for forging. Yearly rosters of swordsmiths detailed on a monthly basis, named a different smith of outstanding skill for each assignment and required him to produce a new blade. (His exact rosters to follow in my next post!) The main contribution of this was developing the two-piece body which replaced the older homogenous blades that was dominant in the past.
>>24601517I'd guess as much.But what about knives then?According to some friends who do medieval combat, they almost always bring knives when they're being spearmen, the reason being that if you lose your spear, you can pull a knife and strike with it quickly enough to save your ass when the axeman or swordsman closes in on you.Since the Japanese didn't to my knowledge at least, use shields in combat (pavises don't count), would they still carry them? For wrestling perhaps?Would they be weapons or just tools?
>>24601573I am under the impression that in addition to the long and the short sword, Samurai tended to carry a tiny "sheath knife" of some sort. I forget the details, but maybe the more knowledgeable people present know?
>>24601573Knives were carried, yeah. Tanto, hachiwara...hell, the wakizashi is probably about as long as a good rondel dagger.
>>24601555Here's the smiths! Almost all of these were Bizen or Yamashiro. In order of first to last months.>Norimune>Sadatsugu>Nobufusa>Kuniyasu>Tsunetsugu>Kunitomo>Muneyoshi>Tsugiie>Sukemune>Yukikuni>Sukenari>SukenobuHe also chose six master smiths later. First three of Yamashiro, last three of Bizen.>Norikuni>Kagekuni>Kunitsuna>Muneyoshi>Nobumasa>Sukemori>>24601480>SukesadaThat guy was legit and helped Bizen on its meteoric rise all the way through the Heian period. Which...was kinda good considering the 16th century Swordsmithing was liquid dog shit. Also you can tell this was pattern welded
>>24601600Don't you mean 17th century? Most of 16th is still considered legit koto. (That said, I highly doubt the katana given to ashigaru footmen were, uh...anywhere near up to snuff, so even then you probably had to go looking to find the real deals)
>>24601614Wait yeah. You're right. He was 17th century. In my head I remember "1596" and somehow got 16th century from that despite that only being for four years. Late 16th were starting to get bad anyway
>>24601621Well, that sword was 1579, so it would've been true 16th century. Maybe it was an earlier member of the Sukesada line?
>>24601500I have always felt that the concept of a 'main' weapon is rather erroneous in and of itself, and gives rise to misconceptions about how precisely mass violence works. I have met men who, possessed of the notion that a katzbalger is a "sidearm," disbelieve any claims that it was itself a functional weapon, which is a statement of such surpassing ignorance as to boggle the mind.
Also. Fingers starting to hurt from typing in the cold. Any questions before I stop for tonight? Tomorrow I can pick up about Masamune.
>>24601641That's basically the exact same problem that gets brought up in katana threads. I mean, clearly just because something is not the first weapon brought to bear in the course of a battle, it MUST not be a weapon given any thought or ever intended for serious use outside of absolute emergency, am I right?
>>24601647What's the diffenrence of a tachi and a katana? Also oonce heard someone talking about an o-katana, wth is that?
>>24601647Not really, though I hope you stick around these threads as they go on, bro.
>>24601671Well if you read my previous posts (specifically about how curved blades started) the difference is a tachi is huge. It's about 4ft long at max, and wickedly curved to be hunt blade-down and swung from horseback. It's a very cavalry-engineered weapon.The katana which I'll explain later eventually becomes one of the hallmarks of the worst sword quality period (shoto) was a sword where the majority of its roots came from a time of relative peace. Because of this, it was far less curved, shorter, and used for infantry.
>>24601674Sure thing. Just don't devolve into shitposting :PI hate seeing that stuff and tend to flee
>>24601683*to be hung
>>24601683Also I hope this shit gets archived cause I'm too lazy to save it or retype it :V
>>24601671An O'Katana is an irish sword
>>24601683As a note, though, the original examples of katana from roughly ~1400 to the 1590s are still true koto and have perfectly good construction. Sadly, it's Edo period katana that get most of the media coverage.
>>24601699O-katana is a colloquial, POSSIBLY ahistorical term for katana that are slightly longer than the typical blade length for such swords.
As long as we are talking about knives, this is a Srbosjek, or "serb-cutter," a 'knife' used to speed along executions in the Balkan concentration camps during WWII, because the Ustase couldn't afford to gas everyone. It is essentially a modified wheat cutter.Supposedly one man named Brzica executed over 1300 people with one in Jasenovac, a concentration camp where a lot of people died. There was an awful lot of hell to pay for this, as you might imagine, particularly for the sad sack of shit responsible, Vekoslav Luburic. The Serbs sent his own godson to carve his face off in retaliation twenty years after the war ended. If you thought the Nazi-Hunters the Israelis sent out were vindictive, at least they bothered going through the Hague to get things done.
>>24601696If nothing else, it'll be on foolz for a while.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0K83u4oFOwQIt's thread related. Has to do with pronunciation.
>>24601783Jesus, that thing looks stupid as hell. Was there even a handle in there, or was it just attached to the glove?
>>24601800Oh fuck me, that drives me crazy too.
>>24601800I raged a little inside my weeaboo brain.
>>24601810Cold Steel man. Cold Steel.Fantastic weaponry, dumbass delivery of content.
>>24601800Not loading correctly for me, what's going on here?
>>24601835Fat white guys calling katanas "kah-TAN-uhs."
>>24601835Some turbosperg said katana ...how do I even type this?ka (as in can't) - tana (as in tangible)The wrong fucking a sounds both times and the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllable.
>>24601844>>24601846Oh, *that*. That never sounded quite right to me even before I learned the basics of how you pronounce vowels in moonspeak.
>>24601804Just the glove. It wasn't a fighting tool, I don't think, just a device to make cutting throats easier on the fingers.
>>24601856I don't even like Japanese, their history, or their weapons...but this just got me. Got me hard.Why Odin why...did I learn Japanese, their history and their weapons? What am I doing with my life?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Kb5UKptcDu since we are on the matter of pronounciation, here's the finish puukko my fellow fin ahs been telling you about.
>>24601866If you're looking for an answer that doesn't get you fucked by a six legged horse or your hand ripped off by a demon wolf, you probably shouldn't ask Odin.
>>24601866Well, I know why I got into them. Strip away all the bullshit about them, both the excessively positive and the excessively negative? You're left with something that is just really god damn interesting.
>>24601783>If you thought the Nazi-Hunters the Israelis sent out were vindictive, at least they bothered going through the Hague to get things done.Y'know, except the Mossad. They just straight-up killed people.Captcha: insultMa difficultWhy yes, captcha, it is difficult to insult my mother.
>>24601866>Being picky about historyIs wrong appreciation of history.Take it from me, I even dabble in iFrican shit.
>>24601907Well Nimchas are cool.
>>24601888>six legged horseyou talin' about sleipnir or what?Because, you know, sleipnir has 8. And I can't think of anything in the nordic/germanic mythology that has 6 legs.
>>24601917That they are. Though I must profess to a love of Sub-Saharan African kit as well.
>>24601906Probably sleipnir, yes. Also I know that technically he was the product of a comparatively regular horse fucking someone. Let's not get any further into the horse fucking than we have to.
Oh, and the kaskara it's rad as well.
>>24601938Huh.Half the swords I see from Sub-saharan tend to appear to be, er, not very easy to wield. And half the times the blades have a lot of non-sense in them.
>>24601967Yeah. They look like the shit the Tolkien movieverse Orcs brandished, I love it.
>>24601967That's why I prefer the north-african ones.
I'm out. Peace, fellow SoSfags, and may this thread live on when I return.
>>24601996Flyssa actually very highly resemble Tolkien elf blades with their single backsword design and multiple curves ending in a curved or pistoled gripWelp I hope I was of use/entertainment. If so I will return at a later date.
>>24601967>>24601996...Africa is Middle Earth? But that means...New Zealand stole the pretty terrain from Africa!
>>24601967A lot of those are ceremony or execution weapons, I believe.Also, it helps that armour was rare as fuck in the sub-Saharan lands
This thread has the best historical discussions so far. So, it is early Friday morning in the Pacific Time Zone (master race). I just woke up from a dream involving playing a sci-fi FPS that had XV-22s in it. They had machineguns instead of burst cannons. That doesn't really have anything to do with our fechts tonight though. Later today (i.e. tonight, at least 12 hours from now) will be my last fecht for a couple weeks thanks to university finals. So far I have two things on my list. First is a GURPS fecht, a Polish winged hussar against an...I don't remember the era name, but a mid- to late-11th century mounted samurai. Wikipedia tells me this is the era when some warrior monks held off an army at a bridge for a long time, and one monk earned the nickname Arrow-Cutter because of his actions there. Supposedly he deflected arrows with his naginata. Jimmy Rome himself requested this fecht. I asked /an/ for some help on the differences between Japanese and European horses but I didn't get anything very valuable out of them. So, /tg/, how would a European cavalry horse compare to a Japanese cavalry horse? And what weapons and armor would each of these fighters have? I know the winged hussars had huge lances for combating pikemen, and that the samurai would likely have a bow and one of these monstrously huge tachi swords. What else would each guy have? (Those swords sound like they're very heavy, and being slung over one side of the body would make you feel lopsided. Am I correct?)The second fecht people are interested in is a FATAL magic one. I'm nearly all set to do that one, we just have to run the fight.
>>24601941Do you know the purpose of the wide part in the sheath? Is it just aesthetic or does it serve a purpose?
>>24602551Helps draw faster, both from left and right hand position.http://vocaroo.com/i/s1NuIf5Qo4e9
>>24602300Seems a pretty unfair match, truth be told. The horse of the hussar it's plain better in nearly all the aspects: Taller, faster and probably even more resistent, the horses used be the polish were a mix of a lot of types of horses. The hussar has plate armour mixed with mail for the feet (so very flexible and nearly impenetrable if it isn't shot with a musket or a heavy crossbow), bows and firearms to harass, an extreme advantage in close quarter wit his kopia( very light lance, from 3,8 to 5,6m long), and sabres or koncerz (a type of estoc of 1,30 to ,1,60m long) paired often with a shield.And they look very rad. While the nipon has probably an O-Yoroi, a lamellar armour very good for horse archer though a bit cluncky in feet. The horse it's a pony, and not even a mongol pony (though tghey are related, the Japanese pony didn't live like a mongol one). The Yumi it's a superb bow, but the Hussar has a good bow too, plus probably one or two pistols. But well, the Bushi will have a tachi but the Polish will have a sabre plus a shield. I bet for the hussars.
>>24602682>3.8m to 5.6m long>~12.5' to ~18.5' longHow could they possibly wield such a thing on horseback?
>>24602746Was made of light woods like pine, and the center was hollowed, a lance like this weighted 4 1/2 Lb . Only one strike, but a godamn good one.
>>24602768To be honest, it was so they could fuck a pikeman before said pikeman fucked them. As far as stopping power goes, it was below heavier, more sturdy lances.Still, the amount of murder accessories those people carried is downright orky: lance, sabre, pick or axe, a pistol or two...
>>24602808Yup, of course a heavy cavalry lance it's better, but it's still a good strike. The hussar was very complet as an individual warrior. Even bows until the XVIII. Gotta love hussars.
>>24602300>SamuraiA tachi is no heavier than a european two handed sword. The samurai would also have a cavalry spear or a straight-bladed naginata.>Winged Hussar panoplyMail and plate armour all over, plus a full helmet and a shield. As for weapons... good Lord. Sabres, swords, estocs, axes, warpicks, bows, daggers, pistols, lances. Possibly all at the same time. Slavs were insane then. A sabre or a sword, plus a lance, a bow, either a pick, an axe or an estoc, and a brace of pistols is what you'd consider a basic set of weapons.>HorsesPolish warhorses were infamous at the time for their size, stamina and ferocity. Less so for speed. Compared to an asian one, they'd be huge, nasty fuckers, but slower and possibly with less endurance.
>>24602682>>24602947What if we swapped the horses? Gave the Hussar the Japanese pony and the Samurai the Polish monster?
>>24602954The pony would collapse under a 200 pounds of Polack and another 100 pounds of weapons, cursing Galt with its last breath.
>>24602947>>Horses>Polish warhorses were infamous at the time for their size, stamina and ferocity. Less so for speed. Compared to an asian one, they'd be huge, nasty fuckers, but slower and possibly with less endurance.But the japanese used their little ponies.
>>24602682>>24602947The Samurai is fucked, I think.
>>24603102Yup. The nipon ass will match with his actual banner.
>>24603171You know what? Fuck it. I'm going to choose to believe the Hussars wore their wings. Life is better that way.
>>24603102Assuming equal skill? Probably.He could try to shoot the hussar's horse from under him and just plink away at the bugger until he hits a part not covered in armour, but the hussar can shoot back just as well, and has pistols in case the samurai charges with his spear.
>>24603192It's mroe likely than you think: those are the same people who wore leopard skins over armour, riding to battle in ludicrous amounts of bling.
>>24603192Probably they did, at least they carried them in campaing as some letters and books say.At first the wings were a deco for the shields, but when the shields were abolished from the Hussar panoply be Batory around the 1576 they started to wear them in the back, the saddle and briefly in the left arm. And nearly all the paints with hussars in battle, they wore the wings. But the artist weren't in the battle, so isn't a certain matter.
>>24603266Well, not nearly all, but a good portion of them.
Huh, no ones hopes for the bushi victory?
>>24603535It would be an amazing victory, but it isn?t gonna happen.
God I want to see a fecht with a norse berserker
So, how many threads have we had now? I wonder how many fa/tg/uys are actually behind this.
>>24603535I hope that someone knowledgeable would explain the characteristics of the Japanese horse. I was looking for those months ago, and couldn't find shit.
>>24603670Huh, the Japanese horse it's mix between the Chinese and korean ones with native stock(both not very impressive in terms of aspect or height, and the chinese ones weren't very good, but those are strong and resilent horses for they weight) all pony sized, but in general nearly all the war horses in Europe will surpass the japanese ones in Speed, weight and Height, and probably in Endurance too, and we aren't speaking of the destriers. Mind you than was impossible to do a charge until the Takeda imported new horses, and even then was rare (if at all made, I don't recall of a charge in Japanese warfare, but I'm sure they had a few).Japanese horse breed are rare, and the info isn't plentiful, but one of the war breeds was the Kiso. Pic related.
>>24603805I was looking for information on actual Japanese war horses because Legend of the Five Rings assumes horses can carry people, or gear, but not both. In any way. Seeing as that puts a damper in the whole "mounted archery cavalry" thing that defined the samurai, I felt I should change it.
>>24603864Well, isn't that far from the truth. To carry a bushi with and o-yoroi, yumi plus arrows, yuri and tachi will be hard for the poor pony.I found this page, isn't focused in war breeds, but in Japanese horses. Not a lot of info out there.http://japanese.lingualift.com/blog/japanese-horse-breeds/I find the Noma Umi to be pretty Kawaii.
>>24604027>Well, isn't that far from the truthIt's far enough from the truth to turn samurai into a primarily grounded fighting force that uses the katana as a primary weapon.
>>24604119Hmm, you have your servants and other ponies to carry the weight of the impedimenta, and a kiso pony for fight as mounted bowmen. Heck, in Europe was the same, you don't put any extra weight in you precious and expensibe destrier, and those horses were hugh and normally supassed the 500 kg. Pic related, a Frisian, typical war horse from Holland.
>>24604235>Hmm, you have your servants and other ponies to carry the weight of the impedimenta, and a kiso pony for fight as mounted bowmenThere's really no way to justify it, as "man wearing full kit armed with bow" is itself too heavy. That's why there's only one cavalry school in the game. Because the family that established it went Somewhere Else a long time ago and came back with destriers.
>>24604297They really did it, did they? So only the Unicorn tribe have cavalry? That's hilarious. It's like they only toke the pop-culture elements of Japan to make the game. Another breed thougt to be descendent from the destriers was the percheron. Fuckers can get as big as to weight 2600 pounds.
>>24604385>It's like they only toke the pop-culture elements of Japan to make the game.Mongols, actually. The Unicorn wear fur, eat meat, and ride giant war horses. Which makes them Mongols. There's also a massive bow that gives a penalty unless you use it on horseback, so they're really fucking effective archers. I'm not sure how anyone manages to take them on. I'm not sure how big the Unicorn War Horse is, but it's definitely large enough to count as a "horse", rather than the native "ponies".But this thread isn't an L5R thread, so I'll cut this bit short.
>>24601996Why, hello, Orcrist, what are you doing in Africa?
>>24604385Jesus Christ look at the size of them.
>>24605669Well, they are the descendents from the destriers, and destriers were huge. When war horse weren't needed to be as tall and heavy as before because gunpowder, those horses were putted to plow, draw chariots and things like this. Horses like the Shire and percheron. This one it's Sampson, the tallest and biggest horse ever.2,2m tall and 1,520 kg, a Shire breed. I didn't find a better photo.
I think an introduction to horses is in order. Can anyone provide one? Something like knowing what a destrier is would be good, and what the differences are between a warhorse, a pack horse, and a farm horse. If there are any differences at all. The three main GURPS publications I'm using for the fecht are Low-Tech, Martial Arts, and the core books. I never learned mount rules, and there's a lot of cross-referencing between the books. It'll take me a while to get it sorted out. Would a winged hussar REALLY be carrying like four or five different weapons with him into combat? A pick, enormous lance, sabre, AND a brace of pistols or bow & arrow?Along with all his armor and riding gear? On ONE horse that still has to run fast enough to charge at an enemy?This is a scary thing to think about. Also, I need to check Tournament Lance/Joust rules in the Basic Set, but GURPS doesn't seem to have a weapon like the hussar lance started out. We may get to make it ourselves!Finally, I need to know about the samurai's armor, the O-yoroi. What are its strengths and weaknesses? I hate to ask you all for info when Google and Wikipedia is readily available, but I think you can put it into perspective for me. Arrow banners are covered in Low-Tech, no need to worry about that.
>>24605993Well, hussars horses weighted at least 500 kg, and were strong, resilent, ferociuys creatures. And Hussars loved to have a huge array of weapons to choose, but of couse depends of the epoch. Also for horses: A destrier it's the huge charger>>24604385 like those, for very armoured cavalry. Very expensive in both price and maintenence. Then you have the coursier, a lighter and more affordable horses, that's the used be the hussars. See Andalusian horses. The rouncey was the poor man horses, not as good as any of them.I know of a few more, but not the names in English so I don't want to mess it.
>>24606251>>24605906I am actually curious friend, where are you from? A general region would be nice, I am trying to place your pattern of speech. Or typing, rather, but you understand what I mean.
>>24605993I think it's a combination of size and musculature. Destriers weren't necessarily ginormous, but they were freakishly strong and built like brick shithouses. Then you had things like Rounceys, which were pretty normal, and Coursers which were swift and had mad endurance.The Polish, who were famous for their excellent horse-breeding, and who bordered the Hungarians who were -also- famous for their excellent horse breeding, and who had seen many wars with the Turks, who were still again famous for excellent horse breeding, all three of different sorts, basically had access to the finest stock in the world three times over. Their horses were monstrous, and the Hussars, being the best cavalrymen of the best cavalrymen in a nation of the best cavalrymen, of course rode only the best of this threefold singularity of equine superiority.Though I for one think the Samurai has a better chance than he's being given credit for here, particularly if he's a Sengoku period Takeda, and so has access to fine Arabian horses or some other foreign breed that allows him to keep pace with the Polack.
>>24606464Oh, It's that bad? And I thought I was improving with English, but In my defense I will say I'm sleepy.Spain, Catalunya if helps you.
>>24606555Not at all, in fact you are downright erudite, the only reason I suspect anything at all was that you sometimes use It's instead of is, which is a very small thing. I only comment on it out of interest.
>>24602682Stop confusing Japanese horses with Rokugan's horses, dude. Japanese horses are a bit small, but they're neither slow nor weak. They're basically exactly the same as Mongol horses, except with even tougher hooves.
>>24606624I think it's the first time I'm called an Erudite here, so Thank you. I know I have huge array of typos on my posts, but some times it's a bit too difficult to remember if that h was before or after that t and etc. And I repeat the same word a lot. But trust me, a lot better than a year ago. So, today we have a fecht planned no?
>>24607061Well, what breed of horse are you talking about? I don't know a lot about them, but they don't seem to be faster or stronger than European war breeds. The kiso sure don't look like it will surpass a Friesian or Andalusian in most aspects. If you can aport more info it will be rad, seems difficult to acquire good sources about Japanese war horses.
>>24607061Yeah, this. Japan would never have been a horse archery culture if its horses were that terrible at bearing fully equipped riders swiftly for extended periods of time (and note that aside from the Unicorn, Rokugan is emphatically NOT a horse archery culture).They're not as good for melee cav as European riding horses, but we're not talking about some kind of trash breed that can barely walk under the weight of an armored rider here.
>>24607237Ah, this is where it gets problematic: a Kamakura-era samurai would probably have rode a Nanbu horse, which were considered the finest warhorses in Japan at the time. ...Unfortunately, the Nanbu is EXTINCT today because in order to increase its size it was heavily bred with other bloodlines in the late 19th century.Accounts suggest that it was, as mentioned, basically a Mongol warhorse with tougher hooves--small, but tougher than a Toyota Hilux and it had to have been swift enough under load to make horse archery practical at least.
>>24607081Yes, I intend to run one more fecht. Looks like I won't get to FATAL magic this time around. My understanding of NATIVE Japanese horses is that they're fast and have tough hooves, but are almost all pony-sized and not suitable for melee charges. How tough are "tough" hooves? Do you not need to shoe them if their hooves are tough enough?
>>24607354I'm not sure if they needed to or not. Possibly not, but I seem to recall there being an industry for shoeing some horses at least.The hussar's horse would still have an advantage in strength and speed, mind, just not a COMICAL one. In GURPS terms it almost certainly has notably higher ST, but at least equal HT...maybe even slightly LOWER HT than the Japanese horse.
>>24607324Well, I only seen the Kiso breed perfoming, and I wasn't very impressed with them (seemed to struggle a bit). Sure the Nanbu sounds to be better, can you pass me some source? I can't read Kanjis, though in English will be fine.
>>24607439Not surprising there. Kiso horses COULD be used for combat but they were more commonly used as a military draft animal.I don't have my source link anymore, sadly, though Wikipedia's entry on the Hokkaido Pony has a tiny bit of information:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokkaido_Pony
What I find hilarious about horses in Rokugan is that only the Rokugani native ponies have a physical appearance anything like Mongolian breeds. Unicorn standard horses are basically typical European coursers and the Utaku battle maidens go to war with colossal destrier-like beasts between their legs. Small wonder they don't really give too much of a shit about their men, eh?
>>24607538Well, the wiki say about the Dosanko than it's very strong for his weight and good temperament. Not very big, but those horses weren't the best crop of the nanbu anyway. Still I doubt It can run or outmanoeuvre a hussar horse, who were famed for they Endurance, ferocity and reliability and weighted at least 500 kg, they were raised in in a semi-feral environament, and were from different breeds mixed together which included Anatolian, Persian, Turkish, Kurdish, Crimean, Caucasian, Andalusian,some European ones and Arab and only the best horses were purchased for war.At least in the Open plains the Hussar has a better horse. In irregular terrain perhaps the nanbu was superior though. >>24607831Well, some maidens lost they virginity while riding a horse... And think about girls plus bicycle.
>>24607917It probably can't, even though it's tough as a rock it's going to have a smaller stride length and lower muscle mass. Its main advantage will probably be that it won't tire as fast as the hussar horse, and possibly be less likely to injure itself on rough terrain as you said.
>>24607964The hussar horse wasn't famed for his velocity, but his endurance, his stride will be larger than the Nanbu, so in case of chase the nanbu doesn't seem to be the best bet. I don't try to shit on the Japanese horse, but the Hussar one probably had since Steppe blood to Arabian one , and few horses can best the endurance of those beasts.
>>24608213Perhaps equal or only 1 less HT, then. We're talking two breeds of horses that are famed for being able to endure a lot.(And in GURPS, the European horse's higher ST means that it's going to have more HP anyway)
>>24608441It's okay to me, if the fecht dude it's okay too. >>24608550Okay. Spill all you know about Japanese war breeds. We are having a cool talk about them, and we need more info.
>>24608587Oh shit. You caught me on something I don't know at all. I only know that the Japanese used them. Largely during the time of the tachi and then the Mongol invasions.
This whole fight doesn?t seem very fair. Does the Samurai have anything going for him at all?
>>24608946Being that it's GURPS, since he has a ranged weapon it's possible--though unlikely--he'll get a lucky shot right through the hussar's eye or a critical hit result that reduces the effective armor where he hits by enough to punch through.
>>24608985 Are we making both parties equally skilled?
>>24608946Not too much other than if he passes one of those -8 or whatever checks to hit a chink in the hussar's armor.Honestly, I'd have put the hussar against a Mongol warrior. Similar horse, but with the possibility of actually using a lance of his own and a faster bow.
>>24608946Hmm, perhaps the Yumi it's better than the bow used be the hussar. But then the hussar has pistols...I can't think anything than a samurai pre tenpo can get to fuck a Hussar better than the hussar doesn't has.
>>24609024I'd assume so.
>notices the vocaroo pronounciation fail up aboveY'know, that reminds me of this piece of magic.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJSZ1TwjcsQ
>>24609041The grammar in this post. Glorious
>>24609201Go home Karate, you're drunk.
>>24609041Hussars are a post-teppo thing...
>>24609438Yeah, but the opponent is a Kamakura era samurai.
>>24609058Maybe it would be a good idea to make him a tiny bit more skilled, so it isn't Hussar vs. Speed bump. I wonder when we're getting that character creation.
So it looks like I have some downtime, but I want to gauge the thread zeitgeist before I continue the string of >>24601600 ; >>24601555 .Anyone wanting more Kamakura? I left off before Masamune.
>>24609953It's quite interesting. Please continue.
>>24609972Yeah, go for it.
>>24609953You do what you do. It's neat stuff.
>>24601555I shall continue this. Also name change because I'm a fucktard and forgot we're in Koto period, not Shinto anymore.Oh shit the Mongols invaded! In 1274 and 1281, there were two seperate Mongol invasions. Kublai Khan's nomadic hoards of cavalry invaded Japan and the smiths of Kamakura saved the day with their fine blades. The head of the Hojo regent bakufu, was Hojo Tokimune, a Zen advocate. The martial atmosphere was less professional than under Minamoto Yoritomo, but Kamakura was the seat of illustrious smiths who developed their Yamato, Yamashiro and Bizen traditions under Minamoto martial rule. Eventually, from working closely with each other for so long, these three traditions somewhat combined their efforts and created a new seperate fourth tradition called Soshu.The most famous Soshu swordsmith, known even to small children and anyone who's ever read fiction ever, is Goro Nyuudo Masamune. Masamune's name is synonymous with the highest level of perfection in the making of sword blades. He's not the most famous on accident, either. At this time, there were serious combative limitations with nihonto on the battlefield when versus the Mongols, most notably the tendancy for the tempered edges to chip. Masamune was incensed and created a partnership with other smiths to fix this problem.Eventually, Masamune's experiments yielded a blade that was highly resistant to chipping. The Japanese at the time (and records) state that it was completely unchippable, though scholars cannot prove this (it sure would help explain lack of chipping on blades of this period, which leads some to believe they were not used in battle). Masamune's smithing methodology was based on using higher quality choice ores and could heat them much hotter. Doing this before would have left blades warped or brittle when quenched. Instead, these slightly higher temperatures allowed for a method of annealing and then tempering twice, and quenching twice.>Same sources as above.
>>24610356That pretty much lines up with what I've heard. The tips tended to break off too when thrust at Mongol armor during the first invasion, hence those got reinforced (possibly also where the o-kissaki was invented?)
>>24610356>Oh shit the Mongols invaded!I didn't think the horse-spawn would travel in boats. How did they get there?
>>24610428They borrowed a bunch of Chinese and Korean ships...a lot of which weren't actually very seaworthy (flat bottoms), which made the effects of the two Kamikaze storms even worse than they might've been.
>>24610428Made a human bridge out of conquered Koreans and rode over.I kid. What >>24610466 said.Also of note, I believe most of the infantry the Mongols used were also Korean and Chinese conscripts, and conscripts being largely ill-motivated and ill-disciplined contributed to their lack of success when they actually managed to land troops on the beaches.
what if we stat a Huzzar in L5R
>>24610356>these slightly higher temperatures allowed for a method of annealing and then tempering twice, and quenching twice.Would it be possible top get a more detailed account of this process? Because as it's described here I can't make much sense of things.
>>24610356Masamune eventually took on ten disciples of his tradition and they each became their own famous swordsmiths, the Jutetsu (see below). However, Japan's political rule was cracking. The death of Tokimuni led to a series of terrible rulers. Between all of the squabbling about whether the Hojo should be ousted or not, the Nambokucho period began; the period of North and South dynasties.In contrast to the Mongol invasions, the battlefield zeitgeist during the time of the dynasties led to an increase of emphasis put on infantry tactics. The tachi longswords and cavalry still existed, just with less of a focus. There was a tenancy to consign skilled men to infantry roles. The realistic warriors having to fight on foot came to the realization that a lighter curved blade that was shorter could be manipulated with greater speed, and if properly used, was capable of almost the same lethal penetration against armored foes as the previous heavy swords.This was a significant discovery that led to a systematic re-discovering of sword technique itself; the lighter sword drove swordsmanship along the path of finesse and technique. By the end of this period, the tachi longsword, which was previously worn edge-down and drawn ground-to-sky, was replaced by a shorter weapon worn edge-up inside a sash. Based on its new form and position of carry, it was called the katana.
>>24610625> implying you can stat non-samurai in L5R>>24610682>By the end of this period, the tachi longsword, which was previously worn edge-down and drawn ground-to-sky, was replaced by a shorter weapon worn edge-up inside a sash.Is there anything that really distinguishes tachi from katana besides the mountings, length, and manner of wear? I sometimes wonder if it would be possible to convert a tachi to a katana (or vice versa) solely by changing the way its mounted and worn. Is it?
>>24610682Katana...Kata means form. Na means...?
So, someone's collecting all this infodumping into a pastebin or something, right?
>>24610749Katana as "sword" is its own single character. It's actually the exact same character the Chinese use for "dao", read a different way (and when you use the "Chinese" reading in Japanese, it becomes "to", which is where things like "nihonto", "koto", and the like come from).
>>24610738Yeah, it is. There's a surefire way to tell which form a given blade was originally intended for--the main signature of the smith is on the side of the tang that is meant to be worn facing AWAY from the body.
>>24610802I knew that, but that doesn't actually answer my question. If you have a blade with the signature on the right side, you have a tachi. But what if the smith signed it on the left?
>>24610672Hmm, seems worth going into later if I have the time.>>24610738Not much. Just length, severe curvature, tapering, balance, weight, use, and manner of wear. So everything. :P>>24610749Nonono, that's not how Japanese works. The symbol is 刀 or simply "knife/sword". Read at the end of another word such as nihon, it becomes nihon-to; to meaning sword as well.Three swordsmiths of Bizen tradition, Morimitsu (above), Moromitsu, and Yasumitsu (end 14th century) all lived in Osafune village. They produced blades of moderate width, and graceful (but still very pronounced) curvature. They are responsible for essentially pioneering the first quality katana blades. Bizen tradition is responsible for 50% of all koto-period blades.And now for Sengoku
>>24610802Alternatively, place the blade on a table, with the smith's signature facing upward and the tip facing directly away from you. If the blade is a tachi, the cutting edge will face right. If it's a katana, it'll face left.
>>24610837Then you have a katana, like I said.
Funnily enough, the word "katana" was adopted into Portuguese as a loanword, "catana", as a catchall for any decently-sized single-edged blade. These days it tends to me "a machete".
>>24610909tends to MEAN, even>full yboningYes, captcha, I fully boned that one.
>>24610738>>24610625How different are Legend of the Five Rings and 7th Sea, mechanically speaking? Could you just make some kind of Ussuran hussar and make a Unicorn bushi from an older edition of L5R?Also, if we've got wings on the hussar, what about a horo for the samurai?
>>24610738>solely by changing the way its mounted and worn. Is it?It's entirely possible. Hell, you could basically just take a tachi in its scabbard, stuff it through your sash edge up, and call it a day. The extra scabbard fittings might not be comfortable, but...That said, those who know their stuff can generally tell a tachi blade form a katana blade based on a number of criteria. Size to begin with, as tachi tend to be a bit longer on average (many old tachi where shortened down a bit and remounted as katana over the years). Age is another factor, as a blade from the days when the tachi was the most common will tend to be a tachi, and vice versa. From this also follows some stylistic bits (as the styles common to the tachi days tends to mean tachi). Regarding curvature either can have it evenly distributed, but a curvature that's deeper towards the hilt suggests tachi, while a curvature that's deeper towards the tip suggests katana.Finally the smith will sign the blade on the side which ends up on the outside when the blade is worn in its scabbard, so form that you can tell what he thought he was making.>>24610749Given that it's just a single ideogram on its own ( 刀 ), I don't think it has much meaning beyond "sword". The early styles also appears to have been called uchigatana (roughly "cutting sword"), which then shortens down to katana together with some changes in shape over time.
>>24610925Not sure (I've never played 7th Sea), but they're different enough to not be mixable. For starters, 7th Sea definitely has a more cinematic style of tracking damage, whereas L5R can have characters die in one or two hits.
>>24610925There are actual stats for those in GURPS, so no problem. What about two samurai fighting one hussar?
>>24610947That might be more fair. I like that idea.
What kind of arrows did hussars and samurai use? I don't think I'll give the hussar a bow, but I am curious nonetheless.
>>24610930>Regarding curvature either can have it evenly distributed, but a curvature that's deeper towards the hilt suggests tachi, while a curvature that's deeper towards the tip suggests katana.So nearer the most curved part of the blade is to the hilt, it's a tachi, but the curve of katana starts later in the blade? Is that what you mean? I've never had an eye for curvature that subtle.What about the amount of curvature, and while we're at it, the possibilities of fullers?
>>24610852They actually did this so that the name would face the wielder in battle (based on wearing position).>>24610930>Hell, you could basically just take a tachi in its scabbard, stuff it through your sash edge up, and call it a day.Not really. If you've ever done this, you'll quickly realize the tachi's weak (smallest taper of the blade) catches on the end of the draw, and makes you either overexend your arm or fail to draw. It would also be poorly suited to infantry combat since it's so long and heavy.>>24610846Sengoku start! Japanese infantry skill was not as pronounced until the beginning of the shorter curved sword during this period. And this is the first era with reliable evidence of bushi swordsmanship practices (that they did so in a standard, rigorous manner of learning). The stringent ethics are found in the makimono martial ryu scrolls which give specific details on using the katana in training and in combat. Specifically, there were two forms of combat: kenjutsu (sword fighting) and iai-jutsu (draw fighting). Each are related to the other and mutually support their pair.Kenjutsu is, specifically, the art of the sword once already drawn and at a ready position. Iai-jutsu is the technique of drawing the sword as an attack itself, and making that attack also a ready for the following kenjutsu (this would mostly be used in civil matters, since swords aren't pre-drawn, but also on the battlefield if one has to grapple an enemy in between fights, and the sword is sheathed at that time). Oh I'd like to take a minute to quickly mention that grappling and not hand-to-hand sparring was the main form of close combat encountered by the Japanese. It was very rare to see any kind of actual sparring on the battlefield apart from a kick or a feint to set up a sword strike or grapple. That is a bit off-topic and for another post though.
>>24611066>Oh I'd like to take a minute to quickly mention that grappling and not hand-to-hand sparring was the main form of close combat encountered by the Japanese. It was very rare to see any kind of actual sparring on the battlefield apart from a kick or a feint to set up a sword strike or grapple. That is a bit off-topic and for another post though.I am very interested in this topic and eagerly await it.
>>24611066>Oh I'd like to take a minute to quickly mention that grappling and not hand-to-hand sparring was the main form of close combat encountered by the Japanese. It was very rare to see any kind of actual sparring on the battlefield apart from a kick or a feint to set up a sword strike or grapple. That is a bit off-topic and for another post though.This. It's rather like how German knights had their Kampfringen wrestling training.
Okay, so I'm not sure how possible it is to answer this question, but i guess it's worth a shot.Does anyone have any historical knowledge of how much swords and other weapons cost, in general? I mean, is there any reference to what the reasonable expectation of a common sword's price was or such? And what would that be in relation to today?So, if you were a common worker around middle ages and wanted a sword (and somehow were allowed to have one even though you were a civilian), how many days of labor would it cost, approximately? Or something like that. Medieval economics really aren't my strong suite, and sorry if this all sounds stupid.
>>24610957While I'm anything but familiar with the rule system here, what on Earth would give the hussar such an advantage that a two on one is suppsoed to be fair?>>24611001I think that in both cases we could probably get away with describing the fighting arrows as a small pointy bit of metal on a wooden shaft. Japan in particular has some very fancy arrowheads made for various ceremonies and such, but that's not what you'd go for when it's time to toss fifty thousand of the bastards against someone.>>24611014Here: http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_sori-1.htmlTori sori is found on anything and everything basically. Koshi sori is a style from the old tachi days, so it generally means either tachi or ex-tachi blade (not that there's anything stopping you form mounting a blade with such a curvature as a katana). And saki sori is IIRC pretty rare in swords, but when it appears we're probably looking at an uchigatana.As for taking a tachi blade and mounting it as a katana, I think the result would simply be seen as a katana, though any discussion of the blade itself would still refer to it as a tachi of course.Fullering and overall curvature probably won't make much difference here, they're a few steps removed from the katana-or-tachi distinction.
>>24611066>Oh I'd like to take a minute to quickly mention that grappling and not hand-to-hand sparring was the main form of close combat encountered by the Japanese. It was very rare to see any kind of actual sparring on the battlefield apart from a kick or a feint to set up a sword strike or grapple. That is a bit off-topic and for another post though.You really need to expound on that because now I'm seeing armies of samurai running into combat with their swords sheathed so they can duplex each other.
>>24611169>Fullering and overall curvature probably won't make much difference here, they're a few steps removed from the katana-or-tachi distinction.That's not what I meant. I was just asking about whether tachi ever got fullers as a general question separate from the distinction.
>>24611169Note that "more fair" is not the same as "fair."
>>24610682SHIT. Just realized I skimped you guys out on the Jutetsu. Here you go:>Rai Kunitsugu of Yamashiro>Hasebe Kunishige of Yamashiro>Kinju Kaneshige of Mino>Shizu Kaneuji of Mino>Kanemitsu of Bizen>Chougi Nagayoshi of Bizen>Go Yoshihiro of Etchu>Saeki Norishige of Etchu>Naotsuna of Iwami>Sa of Chikuzen>>24611066Back to smithing. During the Sengoku era, many more practical katana were in high demand. Smiths made it their business to forge as many blades as possible in the shortest period of time since the demand didn't see a drop in their business. In terms of function, metallurgy, and combative effectiveness, their blades were generally substandard. Most Sengoku era swords of this type were called kazu-uchimono meaning mass-produced (derogatory). The Mino tradition was carried on by smiths who produced highly practical warrior blades since war was ceaseless during the Sengoku era. Mino was founded by Shizu Kaneuji (end 13-14th century) who was originally of Yamato, and Kinju Kaneshige (just Mino). Both you may notice were of the Jutetsu. Their Mino blades were heavy, wide, and coarse objects but lethal to the core and highly effective weapons. (Kanemoto, Kanesada, and Sukesada Yosozaemon also joined; and a second Kanemoto was very famous for his wickedly sharp Mino blades).Mino tradition during this time ended up birthing the Sengo style of swordmaking (Sengo style of Mino tradition, not Sengo tradition). Muramasa Senzo is the most famous of these swordsmiths.
>>24611066>Not really.Meh, I'll have to rely a bit more on wrist than arm to power my nukitsuke I guess, but that's not somethign I rely on to take off a head anyway. As for the size, sure, a tachi sized for me won't make for good iai, but neither would a katana sized for someone taller than me. Hell, most historical katana blades would allow me to basically forget all about sayabiki...>>24611134Some pics, coming right up. Filename is the bloke who's supposedly the source (I got this stuff here on 4chan, so keep the salt mine handy I guess). For Europe, he general trend was that arms and armour dropped considerably in price as time went on during the middle ages and renaissance.
>>24611134It's a perfectly reasonable question and not at all stupid. Considering that good swords tend to be custom, hand-made commissions for the owner, a good armorer could ask top guilder/florin/koku for their services. Unfortunately, I don't really know exactly what kind of prices. (Though I've read quotes about full plate suits costing the equivalent of a modern supercar, so by wildly extrapolating, I'd say a good sword might be an expense similar to a top of the line, giant flatscreen tv). A common medieval farmer probably wouldn't have a proper sword because of the price, unless he had looted it himself from a battlefield. Cost-wise, it probably wouldn't be a smart purchase anyway, since a farmer needs to stay at home and tend his crops. So a good set of plowshares would be a better investment. As for personal defense, our farmer has access to axes, knives of different sizes, and various farm tools that can (and have) made perfectly serviceable polearms with little to no modification.
>>24611258So THAT'S where the whole "Muramasa = vicious murder sword" thing comes from; he forged high-quality no-frills blades meant to be taken onto the raging Sengoku battlefields and driven through an enemy's throat.
>>24611191Ah. You'll see it on some blades, but it's not terribly common.
>>24611181It's probably the usual mix of grapples, throws, kicks to sensitive areas, and violent dagger stabbing that a lot of melee battles end up as.Though an Ultimo Dragon style Moonsault in o-yori armor is a beautiful mental image.
>>24611258During the 14th century, Muramasa's blades inspired much woo woo bullshit in the superstitious Japanese. Because he was a great smith that forged blades of legendary efficacy and extreme sharpness, but also was a slightly psychotic man prone to fits of anger, the Japanese saw his twisted personality being imbued into the blade. I won't spend long on this since it's clearly nonsense, but suffice it to say, the legend of Mauramasa's blades as "demonic" were birthed with further made up tales that once the blade tasted blood it must be continuously fed or it would drive the user to suicide...yeah fucking right. Just a good sword that idiots kept cutting themselves with. But it's important to talk about this because it spawned the thinking of blades being "lucky" or "unlucky" and a host of other traditions that caused the Japanese at the time to start giving names and personalities to their swords. They were so superstitious in fact, that engravings became a major deal and the bonji symbols (pictured) were frequently carved into blades. This was actually a problem. Often the bonji either masked flaws in forging or cut out so much metal that the blade became either imbalanced or weakened.In the 16th century up until the beginning of the 17th century, Toyotomi Hideyoshi (dictator) compiled a list of worth of smiths. the "demon" Masamune Sengo, Yoshimitsu Toshiro of Yamashiro tradition, and Go Yoshihiro (Jutetsu) of Etchu became the Three Master Smiths or Sansaku of the Koto period's end. Now the amazing zenith of the nihonto comes to a close...paving the way for the Shoto Period which I describe starting in >>24600988And Japanese swords will never recover from this decline.
>>24611317We have entirely serviceable sword being made and delivered by the bucketful in the late middle ages (exactly that was found on the wreck of a ship from the 100 years war period), and orders of armour from that time was often for items by the hundreds, sometimes thousands. So things could be quite affordable, though the extreme top end stuff could of course always end up preposterously expensive. While 100 florins might buy you a suit fit for the Emperor's guard to be seen in (so a good bit above the bare essentials), the Roseleaf garniture cost 2550 florins.
>>24611480>>24611338What is an L, S, and D?
>>24611499Well, to be fair, they've recovered a BIT. Shinshinto are considered a fair step up from shinto, and gendai-to/shinsakuto have the benefit of modern metallurgical understanding of the processes involved in Japanese swordcraft, so they're pretty much new koto.
>>24611066Is battoujutsu the transference from iaijutsu to kenjutsu? i.e. The initial draw and subsequent cuts?
>>24611325It rather comes from a few unfortunate run-ins with the Tokugawa family, who then happened to be a pretty big deal for a quarter millennium.http://nihonto.ca/muramasa/>In 1535 Kiyoyasu, grandfather of the first Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu, was struck down by his retainer Abe Masatoyo. Kiyoyasu was said to have been cut in two by the Muramasa blade used by his attacker. In 1545, Matsudaira Hirotada (Ieyasu's father) was attacked and killed by Iwamatsu Hachiya, a retainer of his wielding a Muramasa sword. Ieyasu as well wounded himself badly with his own wakizashi bearing Muramasa's signature. When Nobuyasu, the son of Ieyasu, was ordered to commit seppuku by Oda Nobunaga in 1579, the blade that was used by his second to sever his neck was a Muramasa katana. The last event was after one of the generals of Ieyasu (Oda Kawachi no Kami) put his yari through the severed head of an opposing general after the defeat of Ishida and Konishi in Keicho 5. Ieyasu asked to inspect this very sharp yari, and cut himself on the blade. One can almost imagine the sigh, as he pronounced that this yari must have been made by Muramasa. It was, and that yari sealed the fate of Muramasa blades as far as Ieyasu was concerned.Then there's plenty of post-fact inventions, myths and whatnot to make a better story out of it.
>>24611300Awesome, thanks!>>24611317Ah, I see. Yeah, makes sense that peasants would just use their common tools if home defense was required. On a sidenote, a lot of RPGs tend to depict smiths as making a lot of weapons to keep a stock. As in, you walk into the smithy and tell him you want a sword. And then he goes "Well, here's what I have."How much, if any, of that happened in real life? You bring up the point that swords tended to be expensive and custom made, so it seems to me that it wouldn't be a good idea to make large amounts of a special ware that might not be sold for a long time but required a lot of effort to make.
>>24611571I'll get to that when I'm not feeling lazy but basically when factories were actually a thing in Japan, smithing by machined blades split into two camps: shit and not-shit. That's about what you're talking here.
>>24611545I think they're the English units of currency. 1 Pound was 20 shillings, and 1 shilling was 12 pennies.
>>24611588nnnnot actually no. Battojutsu is the "same" as Iai-jutsu in that both are the art of drawing. However, Japanese rarely make redundant terms, so there are nuances. Specifically it refers to drawing with the emphasis on cut. It's hard to explain without a weeabsword in my hand to draw for you.
>>24611594I thought machined blades were always shit and only really seen in gunto and crappy repros? I meant traditonally forged swords.
>>24611593>As in, you walk into the smithy and tell him you want a sword. And then he goes "Well, here's what I have."He might have lower quality imperfect swords in a bargain bin, I'd imagine.
>>24611545Pounds, shilling, pence. Or somethign like that, £ is pounds at least.>>24611588Battojutsu is the initial part. Somewhat synonymous with iaijutsu, maybe even less about the followups though.
>>24611593>You bring up the point that swords tended to be expensive and custom made, so it seems to me that it wouldn't be a good idea to make large amounts of a special ware that might not be sold for a long time but required a lot of effort to make.Generally this wasn't the case and smiths (depending on the man) kept a few display examples ready or personal pieces. One of the hallmarks of a good smith in almost any culture was the speed at which he could create quality blades on demand. This is NOT the case however with smiths employed directly for Emperors/Kings. In Japan for example, Emperor Gotoba had a rotating shift of monthly smiths who worked constantly for him for his conscripted army. Obviously they didn't just make contract pieces.
>>24611504A very good point. Since battle tended to wear out weapons, decent, no frills arms were quite available. I was thinking more in terms of the kind of single piece commission someone might ask for. But yes, as the medieval period wore on, smiths' workshops became quite large and efficient at mass producing arms and armor. The Landeszeughaus in Graz stands out as a particularly sexy warehouse of mass-produced Renaissance wargear. Then again, those kinds of bulk orders would be placed by lords and civic governments to outfit their levies/militias, so I wonder again about how often a regular person would buy a middle of the road sword. A farmer/tradesman would probably have one provided by the militia he was in, and a middle class merchant would probably spring for a pricier job for the status display.
>>24611688Ah, yeah. Obviously armies would require constant new weapons. But still, seems to me that historically there just weren't "warrior shops", so to speak, where you could just walk in, get what you wanted from a wide selection and leave without thinking about it more.Which brings up some other point. How easy was it, in general, to become a mercenary or other fighting man not simply conscripted into an army? As unrealistic as it mostly is, if a person in medieval times, an ordinary person, woke up one day and decided: "I want to live by the sword", how would he go on about doing it? Except realize that it's a bad idea and go back home, I mean.
We're juuust about ready for a brand new thread. Shall I make it, or do you guys want to run out the clock?
>>24611594The factory made blades are post both shinto and shinshinto periods. And the "not shit" ones would be those made by hand instead of by machine.>>24611593You're probably not going to find a well stocked cutlers shop in every village and hamlet, but for a large city I suspect that a cutler or three with a decent selection of wares might not have been out of the question in the late middle ages. Even for custom work you need examples to impress the customer with. And I do not share the idea that most swords were custom made affairs, I rather suspect that the overwhelming majority wasn't. Blades in particular were exported from a few large manufacturing centres to all of Europe all the way back in the Viking age.And later on, well, here's a hilt cover, ca 1750, with printed advertisement for a sword store. Wouldn't surprise me if each customer got one included for free when he bought a sword.
>>24611793Always run each thread to autosage, if not further, before making a new thread.
>>24611804Haha, it's like a flier. That's pretty neat, actually. A lot more "modern" than one would think.
>>24611804>The factory made blades are post both shinto and shinshinto periods. And the "not shit" ones would be those made by hand instead of by machine.Acually as I will get to later (and as you're ever-more forcing me to do sooner) some of the factory blades were not so bad. They were at least functional and didn't have many flaws. It's mostly the Japanese mentality of kazu-uchimono (and hell our own Western mentality) that a lot of swords got a bad rap for no reason.
>>24611768In Europe, it wasn't too hard. To be a pikeman, you had to be able to jump over a pike held at waist height, and bring your own pike. Mercenary companies were common as hell for a while.
>>24611842Well, even a gunto can take a head:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LeonardGSiffleet.jpg
>>24611850I see. Yeah, a lot of war makes a lot of warriors. On a sidenote, what about instructors and schools? I've read a lot about them, but I'm not sure where exactly they come into the picture in relation to mercenaries, war and such.
>>24611765My guess is that the weapons being kept around by peasants would vary immensely with time and place. From what I can tell many Swedish peasants around the early 16th century would have helmet, breastplate, sword (often of considerable size, but from the "wonky looks but no functional flaws" bin) and polearm or crossbow handy if he and his friends had an overly enthusiastic tax collector to correct or so.If you wanted to buy a full kit just like that though, I suspect you might need to visit a decent sized city. Or one of the regular arms faires.>>how would he go on about doing it?Find a recruiter I suspect. Takes care gear, hopefully training, and getting paid for being violent. From somewhere in the 15th century or so someone with the money to spend could also go urban and find both merchants selling the gear, and fencing guilds to teach him how to use it.
>>24611900>what about instructors and schoolsMight have been around in the 13th century (maybe not primarily organised as such, but drop down to the local monastery and there might be a monk happy to teach you while your crops grow), if not earlier. Seems to have gathered momentum in the 15th century, and in the 16th century we get to the point of two Imperially sanctioned guilds (Marxbruder and Freifechter) in the Holy Roman Empire with training halls in a number of cities.
>>24611768At various times, some of the free companies could get huge. The Catalan Company was effectively a full army and managed to conquer a big chunk of Greece for a while. There would be recruiters around, especially if a war was in swing. Fitness, the ability to follow orders, and likely having some of your own equipment to start are all likely criteria. On the whole, successful mercenary groups, like the White Company, were very well organized and probably had their own charters. Then its off to ADVENTURE! PLUNDER! and DYSENTERY!
>>24611921What is that, an Oakeshott XIV with J pommel?
>>24612075>can't even spell it correctly when it's spelled for youYou silly.
>>24612112OI GUV'NOR I WAS NE'ER A LEARNED MAN I WASN'T
>>24612109Something like that I think. Type I pommel possibly?
>>24612206Yeah could be either. They're both kinda similar unless you get to see the profile view.
>>24612252>Dat filenamehaha wat
I think now's a good time for the new thread.
>>24612306Nah, let's let this one soak a bit. It's only on page 3. I want to test some GURPS mechanics here as I figure them out.
>>24612306yeah, it is a good time
>>24612310We can keep this one open for that while shifting the SoS discussion and historical info to the new thread.
>>24612333Very well Miss Roivas. Make the thread.
>>24612384It is done:>>24612402>>24612402>>24612402
Incidentally, this thread is now archived on sup/tg/; those who are staying behind for the GURPS info should also vote for it!
Here's the basic stats for horses. I'm worried about making the Hussar's horse even stronger than its default statblock, but there it is. Only horse statblocks above the blue line are being used for this fecht. The others are included just because.
>>24612906Looks good to me.