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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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I just ran a million battles using the new scenarios and I'm super burned out. Naturally, that means it's time for a thread!

Space Princess Battle is a wargame simulating small skirmishes in a Flash Gordon/Barbarella sort of setting. It has space magic, lasers, space royalty, a certain amount of random events, and something approaching balance.

It currently lacks outside criticism, art, a sufficient number of random events, and better balance.

PDF in next post.
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It's only 13 pages, or much much less than 13 pages if you skip the rules/flavortext, depending on your inclinations regarding skipping material.
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A fully million? Via some sort of program I guess?
Or plain exaggeration?

Nice reorganization of the system btw, much easier to make sense of now.
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No, I just manually shuffled little dudes around in maptool and took notes, then started over. If I had a computer that would run battles for me I would be very happy.

I'm glad you like the new organization. I really can't tell if things are readable, so I have to rely on other people to tell me.
Whats your calculation system for points, if any?
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I don't have a specific system exactly. The "competent human" statline of M8 A3 R3 T3 generally costs 3 points, and I price things from there, constantly asking myself "I could get [other thing] for the same number of points. Which would I rather have?" If the answer is too easy, I adjust things.

It's a question that's hard to answer without a lot of tests. Sometimes it's easy (for example, a lower stat unit costing less than a higher stat unit), but I've found add-ons to be particularly difficult to balance without a ton of trial and error.

Are you trying to make something similar?
Unless I'm missing something it looks like the combat mechanics are simply alternating turns of moving units and simple tests to do damage. That's going to be awfully dry to base a game around.
why are you posting a delicious roman robot girl?
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Positioning is pretty big for cover and screening, but to an extent you're right.

Can you name a game that isn't "awfully dry?" I would like to observe it and then steal things from it

Because she's genre relevant? I suppose she'd be a sergeant, since she's got a sword but isn't specifically magical.
Not that guy, but you can always add in more variables. It gives the illusion of complexity and depth. Damage/armor types, derivative attributes and modifiers help make a system feel more deep and customization-driven than it really is.
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>Damage/armor types
This is good, actually.

>derivative attributes
I'm not seeing how I'd include these to any useful degree.

One of my goals when doing the basic mechanics for this game was to not have modifiers. For example, instead of stronger attacks getting bonuses to wound/weaker attacks getting penalties to wound, it's stronger attacks cause more hits (each hit being an unmodified save or die)/weaker hits cause fewer hits.

But the armor type thing is actually useful. At the very least, I should have organic/mechanical tags and have things other than the mechanic's laserwrench be effected by them.

Part of me thinks that you could refluff and simplify Infinity to get the game you're going for. Another thinks you could built basic skirmish mechanics into a game like "S.P.A.C. (Space Pirate Amazon Catgirls)."

Either way it needs to be fun and easy to learn, (and cheap to produce, if this is more than an exercise) and from what little I've skimmed this seems like mostly a dice-off game, which in my experience isn't fun.
I can suggest a ton of not 'awfully dry' games that can be found on /rs/ most likely:

AK47 Republic being the first that springs to mind, because it's built around trying to control the level of randomness of the conditions whilst trying to win the battle.

Force on Force is full of complexities of interactions, namely the action/reaction system that sees extended firefights taking place with a back&forth between units of all kinds of shooting, suppression and close assaults going on.

7Tv, which is based around old tv shows action scenes, (think Dr Who, Thunderbirds, Blake's 7, UFO, Scooby Doo and so on) and involves a lot of special abilities and bonuses that are applied not just for things like hitting people from behind but audience appreciation, rerolls for all sorts of things and status effects.

Necromunda to pick something more generally familiar. Lots of fancy actions available like falling off of things, getting set on fire, getting pinned (big thing this in many game systems), various types of injury, a broad variety of armaments and equipment to take advantage of the environment, weird environmental conditions.

The general thing is to have more going on to the combatants than a binary combat capable/incapable.
>"S.P.A.C. (Space Pirate Amazon Catgirls)."
Whoops, I forgot Ninja. That should be S.P.A.N.C.
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Space Pirate Amazon NINJA Catgirls. Get it right anon.
Oh, and bless you for knowing about this game. Noone in this area is willing to so much as look at it they're so unconfident with their sexuality.

If you're in my neck of the world, I'll play the shit out of this game with you.
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On a similar theme, this is the greatest mission brief I have ever seen.
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>(and cheap to produce, if this is more than an exercise)

If I can get it functional I'm going to just be like "here's a free pdf, I recommend getting fifty no-name 15mm dudemans for like tenbux."

>AK47 Republic
From what I gathered this was pretty much "dice off plus half your dudes don't show up," and dudes not showing up is my least favorite thing in Mordheim, where it's a gigantic swingy fuck you. Still, downloading.

>Force on Force
Haven't looked into this at all. Downloading.


Most of the things in Necromunda (assuming that it's basically Space Mordheim) seem to be variations on "roll to see if you take damage." I'm probably going to ignore this one because it's too familiar.

>have more going on to the combatants than a binary combat capable/incapable.
I'm taking this advice because it's good advice. It steers a bit too close to modifiers (and I'm keeping my "fuck modifiers" rule no matter what anybody says) but I suspect I can do it without them, maybe.

Yeah, that is fantastic. Should probably do something similar for the SPB missions. Most of them lend themselves to goofy explanations, I just haven't made that explicit.
Depends on the edition for AK47, in reloaded at least they're not missing entirely from the battle and are in reserve, and both sides are likely to have something in reserve.

Necromunda has a lot going on with terrain effects, sure there's falling off of stuff but there's a lot added by the very 3d nature of the battlefield.
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Ok, I read Force on Force. Stealing some stuff, indirectly.

Tactics needs to be split into Tactics and Bravery (I'd been kind of leaning towards this anyway), and both of them need some attribute tests that cause status effects (running away, suppressed, etc). Some kind of overwatch system needs to happen, but directly ripping off Force on Force is kind of impossible because the alternating activations make shooting in response to stuff pretty doable already. The concept of having a dude declare himself to be preparing to suppress other dudes in general is too good to pass up, though. I'm not sure how OPERATORS OPERATAN should interact with hordes of slow melee robots, though.

I can't find a download of 7tv. If you know of one, I'd appreciate it. I checked google and /rs/ and found unrelated garbage, but I might just not be searching for a sufficiently specific thing. Anyway, time for AK47 Republic.
The formatting of this is pretty much exactly backwards. You should explain what a statline means first before you list your armies, and you should explain armies before you explain scenarios. Don't start with the part of the game that comes first when played by people who already know the rules, start with the smallest and most elemental components of the rules.
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It was originally (sort of) the way you describe, but then I got complaints telling me to change it to the way it is now. God dammit. Is there a tie breaker vote in the house?
You don't need much operatan, more heroic-fightan-and-interactan.

More interactions between models and each other/terrain. Give a point to getting good fighting positions on the field, make sure to include height changes. Don't make it 'true' line of sight though, that shit is balls. Go for clear line to the base/center of base as that avoids problems with the models poses but still makes big things easier to hit, and maybe give a reduction on effectiveness for interrupting/only being able to get a bit of the base not the center.
To add a simple bit of depth to that, a unit that is behind cover (base entirely blocked) could be entirely out of line of sight unless they wish to attack (giving purpose to overwatch). Of course include something about if the terrain piece is obscuring vertically or not so you don't get people hiding behind knee-high walls.
Perhaps include terrain destruction/movement rules for some fantastical stuff, like throwing barrels or blasting away holes in buildings.

I don't know what those guys were smoking. The current rules are confusing as Hell to read, I had to skip to the end and read them backwards. I seriously have no idea why you'd want to know a sergeant's M before you even know what M means.
Well, here's my take on it:

Introductory fluff at the beginning, then the stats of models with an example.
Follow that with rules in order of use; movement, combat, other stuff, terrain (as it affects everything it goes last).
Then troops lists followed by scenarios.
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One of my favorite themes for this sort of thing is Regular Dudes vs. Scifi/Fantasy Bullshit Cheaters, so I definitely intend to include operators operatan options. Some of the stuff you mention exists in some form or another (destructible terrain, explosive barrels in the exploration scenario). I'm also going to clarify how line of sight works to make it more like what you're talking about, since that's how I've been testing it anyway (hooray maptool) and I like it rather a lot.

Ok, order changed to this, and some minor edits to make that workable.
Ah, brainfarted on my part about the destructible stuff.

To make the regular dudes have decent options I'd suggest making their tools be their focus rather than personal abilities. Where as space-magic using peoples can rely on big showy personal abilities, the regular dudes have to rely on old fashioned firepower. I'd think of them like space riot police/SWAT guys; blitzing in, making maximum use of cover, firepower and movement (the basic rules stuff). Try not to make them rely on stuff that other sides can't get or replicate with whatever special effects though.
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This lines up well with my plans. I'm in the process of adding a bunch of status effect based magical options (fear spells, etc) and overwatch, then I'll adjust points to fit.

Currently making a Space SWAT build is exactly what you describe -- in my tests they spend a turn running forward and parking themselves in cover, and then spend the rest of the game going "peew peew" and refusing to die (unless confronted with an overwhelming number of bodies or a mobility advantage, but, you know, rockpaperscissors).
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Well, they should have something to do other than target selection after taking cover, as sitting in cover without moving is a great way to get surrounded, so they should have some options to take the fight to their enemies whilst remaining mobile, like lots of short-range firepower as well.

I'd also suggest that 25% cover is too low for the size of battle, and doesn't really account for linear obstacles. Basically, more terrain = more interesting use of terrain. [image related] may be somewhat excessive though (and knowing where the bits came from, damned expensive too).
thinking about it, various types of grenades could help that, both launched and thrown. Particularly for non-lethal munitions.
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Just finished AK-47 Republic. Short opinion: Jesus fuck what a mess. Long opinion: This is entertaining as hell, but it's basically a gigantic pile of exceptions with minimal core rules, and I want to make the opposite of that. If there's a lesson to be stolen from this, it's "fuck around with deployment a little bit." I'm ok with reinforcements starting off of the table provided that it adds some strategy to the game and isn't just a random fuck you to one player.

Yeah, I think there need to be reasons for the generic dude team to charge. LaserSMGs/Lasershotguns would be an incentive to move around, as would smokebombs/flashbangs as you said.

Also that is some awesome terrain. I kind of want to have a spaceship/corridor/base battle mission, but it's such a huge pain to make fair to all list styles.
Question, do you plan on adding in a dedicated Regular Dudes Princess faction, or do you just want it to be a viable build among the existing factions?

Also, as a purely fluff-based thing, I think it might be better to give the factions less alignment-based names. If you have Good, Neutral, and Evil Princesses and then down the road you want to add, like, Mech Princesses to it or something, that'll be really weird. But if you have Traditionalist, Outlaw, and Tyrant Princesses, it's easier to work in new princess factions.
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No, regular dudes is a build that I want to allow as balanced with other, more ridiculous options.

>Mech Princesses
>Traditionalist, Outlaw, and Tyrant Princesses

I was borderline on putting in a faction of not-Cylons, because they're in everything, but I'd decided against it because I couldn't figure out whether they were a sub-faction of good, evil, or neutral. You have fixed my shit.
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I'm gonna poop out my changes here and then go dick around in maptool. Any "oh god what did you do" type comments appreciated. Fun ways to fuck around with Bravery in a space opera type setting appreciated also.

When a model is removed as a casualty, all allied models within 6" must take Bravery tests.

A model that is activated while retreating must move as close to the board edge it deployed from as possible. After doing this, the model takes a Bravery test. If it passes, it is no longer retreating. Models that move to the board edge in this way are removed as casualties. I'm not sure if this is remotely good.

When a model passes a Tactics test to disregard a shooting attack, it becomes pinned.

A model that is activated while pinned takes a Tactics test. If successful, it is no longer pinned and may act normally. If unsuccessful, it remains pinned and may take no action. I feel fairly good about this one. It seems like it replaces like three mechanics from OPERATORS OPERATAN without actually changing a whole lot.

New stat, applied to units more based on what feels appropriate than what is useful.

New add-on for Evil Space Princesses. Target must pass a Bravery test or begin retreating.

>Cloud Mind
Changed this from "activates an enemy dude without letting him take an action" to "Makes a dude pinned."

>Follow Me
Buffnerfed this to be a passive ability (gives Troopers the B and T of the Sergeant) that requires line of sight. I don't know what the fuck I was thinking having it be an active ability that doesn't require line of sight.

The range seems excessive for regular dudes, perhaps limit it to important models to keep the flavour a bit more pulpy so only heroic types really matter?

Keeping track of who's retreating or pinned might get irritating. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with wargames, so I don't really know any specifics.
Counters or other markers would help there.
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I think I'm going to include an "expendable" tag for characters that don't cause Bravery tests when they die. Great minds, etc.

I ran two games and nobody retreated (which raises the question "why is this a rule"), but a few people ended up pinned. As a hobby person, I enjoy making little tokens to represent stuff. I don't think we're at status effect bloat just yet, but I'll try to keep things easy.
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Test update: Bravery tests to not run away completely wreck meleelooterswarm, which is honestly fine with me since meleelooterswarm is kind of implausible, but otherwise changes very little. Aside from some minor adjustments (making the fear spell short range to prevent princesses running off of the board on turn 1, making not being pinned about bravery rather than tactics) everything is sort of ok.

To do: Add a ton of shit. Specifically spells, LaserSMG, flashbangs, and possibly a horrible monster unit for the bad princess faction. Also, realistically, I'm going to make a robot princess option, but I don't know what kind of space fantasy robots haven't been included yet. If you want to spout out random equipment/characters/etc from 70s scifi that you enjoyed feel enjoyed, feel free to do so, it will probably help.
Check out Sym-Bionic Titan, has a good retro-feel for an animated show (though a tinge more 80s).
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My suggestion would be to just loot the CIS from the Star Wars prequels for ideas. Although it's obviously three decades later than genuine source material, the prequels did a pretty good job of keeping the basic aesthetic right. Well, except for how everything looks shiny and not at all used. But that doesn't impact the basic structure of like spider droids and stuff.

So, for example, this thing looks very 70s despite being from like 2002.
Yo. I really like this, and I've been poring over 15 mm minis to find ones I might wanna use for this, but question- as of now, your rules don't seem to allow for heavily armored dudes with rifles, just ones with pistols.

I would also like to see maybe a heavy weapon trooper option for each faction, with high damage or long range weapons, but with maybe severely reduced movement scores? I feel like if you're gonna make it pulpy fun, might as well go the whole 9 yards. A sniper or a rocket dude would be a good way of mixing things up.

I would like to see more of this. How often do you post threads about this project? And if anyone has suggestions for miniatures, that'd be cool, too. I've been looking at Rebel Minis Manth models. The command pack has a robed figure that could serve as a buggy alien princess.
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Checking this out.

I think this is what I'm going to end up doing. I was imagining cylons, but, welp.

Yeah, I'm sort of mulling over various sniper/assassin/heavy options in my head. As of right now the game is pretty MARINES HOOAH PEEW PEEW heavy, so I'm holding off until there's more fantastic stuff to balance that out with.

I make threads every day or two, but if you think the game needs a blog/e-mail update/wiki/IRC, I'm open to that.

An IRC, wiki, or both would be chill. Do you have a d4chan page yet?

>Captcha: Isrewas wish

Isrewa would like to make it known that he also wants you to set up a wiki or something.
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No, I've just been making threads. I don't think 1d4chan is a good place to store pdfs, though I suppose if we started archiving the threads I make we could link to there (suptg does pdfs, doesn't it? I haven't actually checked ever).

To be more specific, some ideas.

I kind of want to make a stealthy character. I don't particularly like the warhammer mechanic of "lol a dude just pops up right here krbloo" so my plan is to make him deploy normally and give him the ability to split into 3-5 decoy tokens. If spotted, said decoy tokens either disappear or are revealed as the sneaky dude. He can also intentionally reveal himself (destroying all of the decoy tokens, of course). This is probably for the Neutral faction, so it might just end up as a rogue add-on.

I'm also throwing around the idea of a model that generates cover, either by carrying a pavise and standing in front of people, or summoning some kind of terrain feature. The first might be best suited to the upcoming theoretical robot faction; the second sounds like a decent psionic ability. Someone talked about having a terrain mover ability, which is sort of great, but I don't like the idea of having a ton of terrain types (at the very least, we'd have to differentiate between moveable and non-moveable terrain, which raises the question "Do we need to guarantee that player a certain amount of moveable terrain," which raises the question "Is it reasonable to force people to spend their hobby time making the kind of terrain we want," to which I answer "No, that is terrible.").

Another "what if I did this thing" tier idea is a sniper that auto-passes/gets to roll twice on tactics checks to not shoot the closest target. It's hardly revolutionary, but it's a thing.
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Rockets are iffy because there's no good reason to give them a limited range but I don't want any turn-1-princess-behind-cover-gets-rocketsniped shenanigans.

I don't see any reason NOT to do heavily armored riflemans, but I don't see a mechanical reason TO do them either. The Good faction already has rifle-Machine-Mans, which are too similar, and I've sort of decided arbitrarily that the Neutrals get weird equipment, but not good equipment. That leaves the Evil faction, which I suppose would be ok as a mid-tier option.

This is all brainstorming stage, though.
A campaign system and rules more for building a varied warband around a few core characters (Princess, a champion/general/dashing swordsman) that is supported by mooks than for straight up factions would be ideal.

Fluff guy from the previous thread here. Would suggest checking out Prophet (the Image comic) and then making it more Trekky in tone, which is sorta where I had my thoughts. That and a bit of She-Ra and Dune for some reason.
An old LoTR boardgame used a similar concept where the Fellowship player generated memberless parties called "rumors" to try and distract the evil player and help sneak into Mordor. Different medium, but it worked well, and was a cool concept.

Question, though- are mooks without guns intended to be the stand-ins for attack dogs and similar creatures?
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Oh god, a campaign system. That would kill me. And I've seen a lot of homebrew projects, failed and successful, and I'm pretty sure that people like fluff restrictions in their shit. If I took out factions, people would probably be like "generic, lame, yawn, didn't read."

I will look at all of those things if I can find them.

I kind of imagined them as sand people with their clubs and whatnot, but I'm all for counts as.
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It appears that some sort of fuckup has saved this thread from 404.

I'm going to safety bump, though.

To do list: more spells, more tests.
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I just leafed through a german LARP mag today.

They are running one based on this concept.
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Why must places that are far away have so much better larps.
Do you have any recommendations as to how this could be played without buying any actual minis? I wouldn't mind giving it a spin for some playtest data if I can do that without buying anything.
Not to be an ass, but your game isn't super interesting so making it, you know, more interesting mechanically and with a campaign system would probably benefit it.
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This is what I've been using in my not-very-scientific-because-I-play-both-sides tests. Download the program, measure out a 48x48 unit area, drag some tokens in from the library, double click the tokens to name them, dice roller in chat format is [XdY] (brackets included).

This is what you should use if you're planning on playing with someone from the internet. It's basically the same thing, but in your browser and not a pain to connect to people.

If you mean a string of scenarios that impact each other, I'm probably going to do that at a later stage of development. If you mean a full on Mordheim thing with leveling up and persistent units, there's no possible way I as a single dude with assistance from the internet could do a good job at that.

Until proven otherwise I'm sticking with factions because I believe /tg/ as a whole prefers them to a pure, GURPSy point buy system (I personally like GURPS but I'm not too cool to make concessions based on what people like).

I am not all of /tg/, but I think the main point of factions is twofold.

1) To keep units which are thematically bizarre from teaming up with each other (i.e. lore is bizarre when Tyranids and Imperial Guard are in the same army).

2) To prevent option paralysis. It's easier to pick an army, then pick from a few dozen units, then to pick from a single master list of hundreds of different units.

Now for 1, your factions are practically interchangeable as it is, because they're all space princesses and it's a civil war. For 2, your total number of units is like two dozen, so unless you plan on quintupling the size of every faction, I don't think you need to worry about option paralysis, either.
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These are good points and so faction merging is bumped from "probably not doing" to "probably doing if nobody gets coherently mad about it in the near future." It would let me merge some of the more identical units (I'm looking at you, troopers/underlings+mystics/psions).
>If you mean a full on Mordheim thing with leveling up and persistent units, there's no possible way I as a single dude with assistance from the internet could do a good job at that.
Mordheim is super simple really so, you could, and other people working alone have done much more.

Factions aren't necessarily bad, warbands and a campaign system would make this whole thing much better.
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Also, you need a court wizard gift shop. Possibly at the Castle of the Space Prince (Indeterminate Gender XVII).
Don't, uh, don't design a wargame around tripartite (rockpaperscissors) design. Don't do that. It's really bad. No good wargame does it.
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Of the Royal House of Stardust or something.
>gift satellite
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I just ran a horrible game where an Adventure Space Princess with a lasersword/forcefield pretty much soloed an entire squad of lasershotguntroopers. Emergency patch, go! ASPs now have A4 and shotguns now attack everything under their template three times.

Er, maybe I misspoke. I meant to say "There's a counter to that." Anything can kill anything, as of now, assuming equal points anyway.

What do you mean by warbands? I feel like we're already at warband size right now, so I'm confused.

Castle shaped satellite, I think.

So, question, are we switching it to Traditionalist/Outlaw/Tyrant Princesses? Seemed earlier like you liked the idea but it's not in this .pdf. Was that another anon?

Not a big deal, just curious. And to be honest I think I mostly just like the sound of Outlaw Princess and Tyrant Princess.
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Yeah, oops. Put it off too long and forgot to do it. Edited into my word document and saved it there, it'll be in the next version.
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I did a slightly impolite thing and archived my own thread, with the goal of putting the pdf somewhere semi-permanent so that the wiki page (which I also just made right now) can link to it.


There's basically nothing there, but the important thing to point out is that the discussion page isn't quite as anonymous, so I'm taking criticism that happens there more seriously if it comes from multiple people. Threads are nice for discussion, but you can't really tell if an opinion just comes from one really opinionated dude.

If I've ballsed anything up horribly please let me know so I can fix it.
I've written up a proposal for a sort-of campaign system, which is really a system for stringing several skirmishes together into a major battle. The assumption is made that both people will be able to run like four separate armies, because I imagine most people will be using one of maptools/roll20 or models they already have for other games in order to play for free. Hopefully this is a cool thing that we can add to the game.

I've had a few ideas for actual scenario-style campaign thingies. Probably the fluff will be insufficiently wacky for immediate inclusion, but if you like the battle mechanics I could write them up mechanically with a general fluff overview and then someone better at writing crazy awesome fluff could make it sound more pulpy.

Or maybe my battle rules are bad and I should feel bad, in which case I'm on board with just letting people who know what they're doing take care of this.

And I forgot to link to the actual pastebin with the rules in it. It's here: http://pastebin.com/b4XBHNNT
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I'm going to back this while at the same time putting fairly little effort into actually working with it. I like this because it's a small number of games with a conclusion, unlike Mordheim/Necromunda. I also like maps. I'm not sure if it works better as an official "how to play campaigns" thing or as a semi-official really big scenario.

I've added "Active Camouflage" as an add-on for rogues, which is the sneaky guy mechanic described in >>24273240

I'm also brainstorming ways to differentiate a sort of heavy infantryman SPESS MARIN for the evil faction from the trooper/machine-man. Obviously spes marens are M8 A3 R4 T3 B4 with an appropriately high price, but I feel like they need some kind of wacky gimmick gun options. I'm debating drop pods. I don't know if they're genre appropriate.
Give the Champion a Laserrifle option for an appropriate cost- Carapace+Laserrifle would be a good armored trooper or Spess Mehren, and at current costs would hit a whopping 12 points. Maybe add Metal Fist for (2), as well. It seems odd right now that what are described as arena champions, which I'm extrapolating to mean pit fighters, don't have a melee option.
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I'm almost inclined to give them (by them I mean Spehes Mahrins) some kind of ridiculously big gun, like a gatling gun or missile launcher. Something special that isn't in the game yet. As a quick fix to the Champion's melee ability, I've given them the option to take laserwhips. They may need another later, though.

Evil needs another dude type, though. They have far fewer options than the others. And since I may end up scrapping factions altogether, I'd rather the dude not be an effective reskin.
Gattling lasers to fit the lasers everywhere theme?

Ideas: A storm trooper. A weaker but cheaper and Expendable version of the trooper, who can have carapace and laser rifle.

A spehss mehreen who gets the fear option in addition to a BFG that hits 3 times and a carapace.

A Sith marauder-type who gets a modified version of the Fear test that triggers automatically whenever this guy attacks someone. If the laser sword doesn't get them, the fear might do it. On the other hand, the Fear attack makes them decent attackers even bare-handed. Maybe give them some kind of less powerful melee weapon than the laser sword, though. Some kind of space glaive.
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Yeah, I think this is the best option. I'm thinking that a lasergatlinggun would basically be a shotgun with longer range, a wider spread, and a one round charge up time.

>storm trooper
That's basically what the underling is. It might be worthwhile giving them carapaces, though.

>spehss mehreen
Too similar to the champion.

>Sith marauder-type
>Fear test that triggers automatically whenever this guy attacks someone.
I was actually thinking of making an abomination/monstrosity/mutant/robuttmonstar. This would be a good mechanic for that type of dude.

So, conclusions, champions get more guns, and Tyrants get a scary dude. Typing!

Okay, so with my Battle rules having proven decently good, I've decided I'd like to try my hand at designing a few actual battles and other campaign-y things. To that end I need to know: How long does the average skirmish match take? Right now I've been assuming an hour, but I dunno.
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I would guess that also. I'd also say 5-10 turns, if you're doing it that way. Also, I may directly steal your scenarios for the main book, since I'm not sure mine really promote fun in a meaningful way.

So long as I'm credited, I'm more than happy to have my stuff added to another book. It's not like someone could use my scenarios without the core rules anyway.
>Evil Dude Troop
Slave Throngs, a group of a few minor creatures that swarm in melee. Gladiatorial Pit Beast, some hulking unit that can turn on the player if they roll poorly but is a juggernaut otherwise. Some sort of Jawa type that sets traps and is anti-mech (can explode them). Terrorist sorts that are anti-infantry suicide bombers. Some sort of flying monster. Sentient gasses or a crystal ball that shoots lightning at the whim of the evil Princess but if it can be destroyed by the opponent, immediately attacks the evil princess.

Double-edged sword units seem fitting for the more negative types.
Oh, hey, request for main rules: If the battle rules are going to be included or even supported at all, can we come up with something better to call the regular armies of a single princess? Or alternatively, a better name for the gestalt armies of ~4 princesses used in a battle? "Brigade" is kind of lame, but it was the best unit name I could find except maybe platoon or battalion.
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>that can turn on the player

I put in a Monster dudeman type to represent failed experiments, mutants, alien tentacle monsters, etc, and this is totally going on that dude in some form or another. I'm thinking an add-on that makes him miniboss tier strong, but also makes him switch sides if not properly monitored.

Traps make me think of self-placing mines. I'm always on the lookout for good robutt options and I think that's on the list.

Warband covers the regular 30-50 point ones, I think. Alternatively, you could go with "command squad" or something like that, considering your idea about the billions of nameless dudemans that cancel each other out.


>High Command
Princess, her supporting protagonist male character, maybe one or two advisors.
The nameless rank and file mooks and the occasional individual who is just below the High Command.
>Auxilary Support
Monsters/Robots/Weirdos, anything that is more exotic than the type of soldier the Princess brought with her from her homeworld.

>Faction Types: Saviors, Mercenaries, and Tyrants.
Saviors want to preserve the Crownworld Empire and take the throne for righteousness. Mercenaries run the gamut of morality and seek to the throne for their own means and the universe is unsure of how they'll deal with it. Tyrants want to control the Empire, crush their enemies under their high-heeled babyflesh boots, and conquer any who stand in their way.

Saviors can interact with Merc units in their warband, Mercs can interact with Saviors or Tyrants, Tyrants can interact with Mercs. Gives a bit more warband variety and turns factions more into keywords, which might be cool when concerning a player making a unique warband.
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Someone actually made this point previously and the latest (not yet posted) version already has the factions listed as Traditionalist, Outlaw, and Tyrant.

Also, flexible faction keywords noted. mitebcool

Anyway, bedtime bump. I'll check in the morning assuming there is still a thread.
Bump from page 11
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My current plan is to fix the monster up as suggested by
and then do another round of tests and balance fixes.
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Preliminary testing shows all of the additions to sort of basically work, so I'm calling this 0.2.2. Also, tests show laserwhips to be hilarious. Enjoy not being in cover/being in charge range of something else, good guys.

>added monsters, a melee unit for tyrants that causes fear and has an add-on that gives it a stat boost with the possibility to go berserk if not supervised by a model with a laserwhip
>underlings now get laserwhips
>champions now get laserwhips and autolasers (statswise, a really big shotgun)

The drone fluff text isn't italicized and the monster doesn't have any fluff text at all.
Isn't a laserpistol basically almost as good as the rifle?
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Good catches. Monsters don't have flavortext because someone else wrote the flavortext for everything else (except drones) and I didn't think to add it. How's this?

When normal soldiers cannot accomplish a task, tyrannical space princesses look to more sinister servants. Whether created by arcane secrets or scientific processes, these terrifying hybrids are perfectly capable of tearing the average soldier to pieces.

I actually thought this too in the first release of the game that had both pistols and rifles. Then I threw various warbands at each other and holy shit rifles killed everything. That extra 1-2 turns of shooting (and near guaranteed death on a hit) makes a big difference.
This system is definitely growing rather nicely, especially for not being a straight up clone/mod of another system (I am looking at you Scrollhammer).

What in the plan for future additions? Perhaps a quick-play sheet with all the rules on one easy reference page?

Sounds good to me.

Working on battle scenarios now. I have a couple of half-finished ideas that will hopefully be semi-decent, but the maps they come with are...Not spectacular. I don't suppose anyone following this could make more better looking battle maps once I have some finished scenarios? Some cool visuals can go a long way to garnering interest.

Assorted recommendations.

-Several of the Sergeant's add-ons reference the Sergeant specifically. These add-ons are exclusive to the Sergeant right now, but might not be always. You should make them more unit-agnostic in case you hand those abilities out to other units in the future.

-Protect the Princess raises Tactics. Is this a hold-over from when there was no Bravery stat, or do you want Tactics instead of Bravery raised? I would actually recommend the latter (i.e. leaving it as it is) because that helps your units shoot at enemies threatening the princess even if they're far away, but you could make an argument for raising Bravery instead.

-Laserwrench targets machine men and drones. It'd probably be better to have them target "machines" and then add some kind of keyword that tags machine men and drones as machines. Then you can add more machines in the future.
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My plan is to chuck warbands at each other and balance point costs for a bit. While that happens, I'm listening to arguments over whether the faction system should be removed altogether (allowing any sort of princess to recruit any sort of unit) and thinking about that. Once I make a permanent decision on whether factions are in or out, I'm adding some new machine units. This is why I'm holding off on implementing some very good suggested units; I don't want to make extra work for myself by balancing them for a faction, only to remove all factions five minutes later.

I've been kind of banging my head against making a single page summary, but I can't quite manage something both useful and short. Ultimately the system boils down to "roll under your stat to hit/not die," but I don't seem to be able to do a good job at fleshing out the exceptions. I bet I could do a good example of play with diagrams, though.

I am terrible at art.

>add-ons reference the Sergeant
>make them more unit-agnostic
Done, good catch.

>Protect the Princess raises Tactics.
>do you want Tactics instead of Bravery raised?
This has occurred to me. It's a holdover from when there was no Bravery stat. Right now, I consider Protect the Princess to require a ton of fixing, and I was just waiting on more information on how to do it before I addressed that at all.

The original idea was that you plunk down your unhelpful princess at the back of your line, then run a Follow Me Sergeant six inches in front of her, then run some troopers six inches in front of him to receive T5 troopers that never die and snipe everything, but testing has shown me that this probably isn't fun or useful, and it should be both. I like the idea of bubble buffs for mental stats, though.

>add some kind of keyword that tags machine men and drones as machines
This is a good idea, especially because I have ideas for new machine units that I'm holding off on. But! (continued)
Keep the faction system, it's easier for people to get into something when there's a defined framework.

I'll take a look at what'd have to go onto a qrs, see if I can think of anything.
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The but is this: There aren't currently any keywords in the game, and I'm always on the lookout for ways to minimize complexity, so I haven't done it.... yet. Between you asking for it and my not having another way to accomplish the same goal, I'll include it in the next version.

I still recommend against this. Having a framework is important when you have 50+ units to select from, but right now you do not have enough units to make up even a single solid faction. You have 18 different units, a single faction should probably have about 25. Assuming you double the size of your unit roster, you will have just enough to justify having two factions.
There's no real reason a faction should have 25 options when the bases are covered by a mere handful. Many games have far fewer than 25 or even 18.
6 is a good number for a base with options for configuration, and if a faction can be defined with just that, there's no justification for diluting it further.

Sure there is. The reason is "why can't a Wizard Princess have machine men?" Or sergeants? Why can't Traditionalist princesses have drones?

The factions aren't really distinct from one another to begin with. They're all space princesses and all of them are basically the same thing already. There's not enough concept to go around. Adding a bunch of extra factions just because you like having factions is what dilutes a game, by reducing player options and taking a splitting a concept that can barely support one faction into multiple different factions just because.

The only difference between the Tyrant and Traditionalist Princesses as written is the princesses themselves. A Champion could be a champion of good as easily as of evil, there's no reason Mystics couldn't go bad. If you want to have different factions, you need to make actually different factions. The Traditionalist and Tyrant factions especially are nearly clones of each other as it is.
how about we just improve whats there rather than trying to cram in additional options? Factions don't need all that much between them to be distinct, and as this is technically a kind of civil war, there's no need to go overboard.

So your argument at this point comes to "we should have factions because we have factions?" Yes, this is basically a civil war, which means everyone has access to what is essentially the exact same resources and there's no reason to have mechanically enforced factions at all.
No, my argument is we should have factions because players find it easier to operate within a restricted framework when it comes to creating their forces. The open-ended design of say, Tomorrow's War actually puts people off for example.

Simply having different equipment options and a small bit of fluff is enough for a game like this.

People are put off by gigantic lists of units to choose from, but 18 isn't a gigantic list. Especially since it isn't actually 18, it's pick 1 princess off a list of 6 and then assemble an army off of a list of 12. Warhammer and 40K have codices the size of a textbook with well over a dozen different units.

The total number of units in the average war game necessitates splitting things into factions because it is much higher than 12.
40k has so many units because it's a marketing strategy, and it plays merry hell with the balance.

The total number of differnt units per army in the average wargame is not that high because the average game is a historical one, and is thus recreating a platoon/company/brigade/regiment structure of a specific kind of force, frequently with minimal variation between them.
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This is why I'm reluctant to make a final decision. I encourage everybody to go to the talk page (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Talk:Space_Princess_Battle), throw their opinion (factions, no factions, or some kind of inbetweeny thing, and why/why not) out for all to see, and sign it with four tildes (~~~~). This will help me out a lot and speed the release of some new shit.

So I went ahead and added a type to every unit. Currently there are only two types, flesh and machine. This raises the question "Should there be more types?" The obvious other types are gaseous/insubstantial/incorporeal for ghosts/holograms/creatures of pure energy and inorganic for rockmans/destructible terrain. That said, I'm sort of against statting specific aliens, because it kind of takes away from keeping them mysterious.
While it opens the door to other types, I think you'd be getting into awkwardly specific territory actually adding any others. Insofar as I know, you've yet to add anything that affects Flesh (fleshy?) units yet. Right now I'd even say you should be at liberty to say that some units have types, not all, and just note which ones DO differentiate from fleshy units.

You may have noticed that space princess battles is not a historical game. Now historically speaking if something works, it works, and other sides will copy that tactic, weapon, or whatever other asset as soon as they are able. Factions remain distinct from one another only in the last ten or twenty years or so of technological development, i.e. the timeframe within which a nation can reasonably keep its weapons secret from their enemies. In the real world, when you see enormous differences between the weapons and tactics used by one force or another, it's because one of those forces is about to lose in a big way. The difference between Nazi panzer divisions and Polish cavalry is that the panzer divisions were better in every way, and if a force had access to both panzers and cavalry, they'd just take the panzers (which is, y'know, what the Germans did). Thus, when making historical games you end up with historical factions who have units that are very similar to one another, but which are not allowed to overlap because they represent different nations with different technologies and resources available to them.

None of this applies to Space Princess Battles. As mentioned, this is a civil war and the regional differences between different space princesses is undefined because it's pulp and we don't care about logistics. Everyone has access to the same stuff and the lists aren't nearly big enough to cause option paralysis.
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>you've yet to add anything that affects Flesh (fleshy?) units yet.

>some units have types, not all
I have no idea why I didn't do this.
I think you should keep the basic stuff as flesh, but perhaps have 'ethereal' covering ghostly magical creatures of all kinds and 'inorganic' could cover everything from golems to T-800s.

That it's not historical doesn't matter, also Germans used plenty of cavalry due to their lack of trucks, and it's how each group uses their units that makes them distinct as well as any specifics of equipment.
That the sides for this are quite similar is not really a problem, and there's not really anything that would be achieved by lumping everything into one list when there's distinctions between alignment to be had anyway. Even if the units were exactly the same, it just formats better to separate out the types per faction affiliation.
In Exploration missions, why are the objective markers called objective markers if the goal is kill the enemy princess? And if they don't count as anything, then there's a line in the Ammo Cache objective type about a destroyed cache not being worth points that needs to be removed.
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Ah, good catch. Changed everything around to make a bit more sense.

Having machine-men be inorganic means that wrenches do extra damage to explosive barrels and trash piles. The number of machines is going to go up in the near future, whereas the number of inorganic nonmachines is going to stay fairly negligible as far as I've planned.
Rolled 66


No, that it's not historical matters a lot. There are reasons that historical games divide things up based on factions and those reasons do not apply at all to this game. There is no mechanical reason to have factions. There is no fluff reason to have factions. All factions do is limit the options of the player.

As far as formatting is concerned, there's plenty of ways to split up troops that don't involve imposing pointless mechanical restrictions on force composition.
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Traditional pre-bed bump of safety.

I've been trying to figure out how many points autolasers are worth.
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Alright, I've finished up the BATTLE OF CHROME CITY so I'll throw that up here.


Drusilla, a powerful and wicked space princess who has already declared herself the "Dark Mother," has brought her armies to Chrome City, the massive and until now, peaceful capital city presided over by the benevolent princess Lilliane. The shield generator prevents Drusilla's forces from landing within the city itself, so instead they marshal themselves on the mountains just outside, preparing to descend on the valley like a pack of vicious wolves.

1) Landing Ships - Control. This is Drusilla's main base of operations on-world, where her massive landing ships unload her vast army. If the landing ships can be rigged to explode, then Drusilla's forces will be forced to retreat and Lilliane will have won! Note: This is the attacker's main camp.

2/3/4) Jungles - Exploration. These mysterious jungles are on the city's southern gate, a gate which remains forever sealed against the mysterious forces lurking without. Drusilla has decided that braving the dangers of the deadly jungle is worth the risk of avoiding the city's impenetrable northern gate. Taking the offensive, one of the defending warbands has come across an enemy princess in the jungle! The area is unknown to both parties and rife with danger, but neither is willing to pass up the opportunity to turn the tide of the battle!

5) The Southern Gate - Control. Before they can get into the city itself, the forces of Drusilla will need to penetrate the southern gate. Though weaker than Chrome City's famous main gate, it will still require multiple powerful explosives to bring down and allow Drusilla's forces to enter Chrome City itself. One of Drusilla's generals has decided that the inaccurate and slow-firing artillery at the landing ships isn't going to bring the gate down fast enough, and leads a daring raid to manually plant high explosives on the gate and blast it open.
6) Battle for the Sky - Boarding Action. Though Lilliane's shield keeps Chrome City safe from orbital bombardment, vessels moving at slower speeds are able to enter unharmed. Thus the skies above the city grow hot with laser fire as the fleets of the two would-be Hive-Mothers clash just below the clouds! After hours of intense battle, the escort on Lilliane's right flank crumbles. Drusilla's flagship rushes in to attack Lilliane's and tear the heart out of her aerial defenses in one fell blow! Note: Models that end their turn not touching terrain don't drift 6" as in the normal Boarding Action rules. Instead, they fall to their deaths and are removed as a casualty. Drones and models equipped with jetpacks ignore these rules as usual.

7) City Streets - Betrayal. As Lilliane's defenses begin to crumble, the battle comes to the streets. Civilians barricade themselves inside their homes as the gutters run with the blood of unlucky soldiers outside. The chaos and confusion of the battle for the streets makes both sides ripe for betrayal! Note: To simulate the crowded streets, cover 50% of the battlefield with terrain instead of 25%.

8) Turrets - Machine Man of the Throne World. Atop the walls of the city, Lilliane's powerful machine men, akin to mobile turrets, rain down destruction upon the invading forces. A cunning invader has glitched these powerful defenders, however, and now they attack friend and foe alike in a berserker rage! Both sides battle for control in the bunkers and turrets atop the wall, struggling to avoid the wrath of the mighty machine men.

9) Palace Dock - Skirmish. Drusilla's forces threaten Lilliane's palace! One mighty cruiser crashlands into the palace sky docks. Though the cruiser is grounded, the forces inside are unharmed and charge forward to seize the docks and push forward to their ultimate objective, the generator that powers the city's shield!
10) The Ballroom - Skirmish. This magnificent ballroom once played host to the frivolous gatherings of Lilliane's court. Now it is an open battlefield, strewn with rubble from collapsed portions of ceiling and felled pillars, as Drusilla's forces push into the palace to destroy the generator.

11) Palace Gardens - Skirmish. The gardens erupt into chaos as the invaders smash their way through the gates! The foliage withers and burns as Lilliane's forces attempt to keep Drusilla from reaching the generator and bringing it down.

12) Generator Room - Control. This is the generator that powers the city's shields! If these generators are destroyed, Drusilla will be able to threaten the entire city with an orbital bombardment, forcing Lilliane to surrender in order to save her people from total extermination! Note: This is the defender's main camp.

I kind of feel like I must be doing something wrong with this, because once I actually took one of my concepts and hammered it into an actual scenario, it took 15 minutes to make the map and 30 minutes to make the fluff and then I was done. That seems...Too easy.

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