http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TzbeFNsg

again, apologies for any references to my own setting. The guideline I used for this was 2nd edition AD&D, but substitute gp/sp/cp for the currency of your choice and 99% of it applies to anything.

>>22944074

Very possible. You're going to need something that can calculate values on the fly. I'm retooling such a project as we speak to deal with prices of items currently available in a given city and their values if transported to other cities based on perishables, non-perishables, and quality of goods available.

I'm using Silk Road to do it, so there's a lot of possible items and economic generation that needs to be done.

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Introducing an economic bubble might be interesting, to see if your player jumps on it, or tries to ride it out by diversifying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

>>22944097

>Tame hunting cat
>Price on par with a house

>>22944123

Silk Road? do you mean the 3e Magical Society sourcebook or something else? I had a look at that but it seemed a little obscure

>>22944133

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

The arc with the "pyrite mania" in S&W was very interesting to me, I tried to capture it to an extent in the section on fads and fashions.

>>22944158

Yeah, I pretty much copied and pasted from the 2e PHB for that so the price might be a bit weird. Although it does refer to stuff like a jaguar or a cheetah, not a housecat, I believe.

>>22944163

Yep, MMS: SR. Probably the best tool for this sort of thing, provides for a lot of crunchiness and can be used for pretty much any form of trade in any format of D&D.

>>22944197

I'd better have another look at that, then. It can probably help with what I'm trying to accomplish.

>>22944207

I will tell you right now it is best used with methods that don't require you to do all of the rolls every time you want to use it. I'd setup a tool that generates X amount of random merchants in every city (from 1-20+), random barter DCs, pricing, etc. to allow for bartering with many different targets.

A good Excel sheet should take you a couple of hours once you do the basic stuff. If you can program you will have an even better tool in the same time. It's a fun exercise.

>>22944266

I can code, I did something similar with an automatic magic item merchant stocker a while ago though I had trouble getting the mix of items right.

I was angling for a system where you roll/determine once for larger factors like political stuff and then only have to make smaller adjustments when on the scale of individual merchants, but it is quite complex, so maybe a program would be better.

I was also toying with the idea of a random factor, as at the moment it's pretty much all down to the DM deciding how many % X factor alters the price of cheese by, and so on. Maybe some kind of dice roll to represent small changes in the value of items that are beyond the scope of the simulations, as well as some kind of method to actually randomly generate merchants and political conditions without having to decide "Ok, this town is having XYZ and has a shortage of Y because Z" for eahc town.

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Did you just say you are trying to work out an advanced merchant prince system for DnD?

I... I've always dreamed of playing such a system ever since I read Saltspit.

Take me with you, please (or I guess I could help provide a crapton of info to flesh out the world and what's traded.)

>>22944398

Please! I posted a pastebin a few posts up, but there's such a wealth of factors and possible information and i'm no economist. I'm sure there's a huge wealth of things that I've overlooked or reasons that the system as I've written it won't balance.

Any ideas are welcome though, i'm trying to flesh it out as much as possible.

btw - what's saltspit? Never heard of it and google is turning up only tangential references.

>>22944450

nevermind it, just found it on suptg

>>22944340

Well, Merchants start with a certain Barter difficulty, altered by the quality of the goods, which you then increase/decrease based on how much you are offering to buy/sell for. Succeed? Awesome, you purchase your goods, travel to your location. Depending on a basic range (X miles/day is the standard, I believe it is 20 by land?) grants a 5% profit margin.

So you may purchase a bolt of Cheap As Shit Silk in the NotChineseTradeColony. You travel 30 days to NotEuropeTradeColony. Now that Silk which you paid 500 GP for is now worth 1250 GP base. But in NETC that ShitSilk is rarer, so it is worth what AverageSilk would be worth in NCTC. So instead of 1250 you may be looking at 2000GP.

Want to offload your goods? Find a merchant willing to buy silk, then barter again.

Now you had yourself, your caravan guards, herd animals, carts, upkeep... And you take your profits. The smart trader then puts some of his money back into the local economy for good will/improving the NETC like in Uncharted Waters.

Of course there may be dozens of caravans in town at that time each selling silk, which lowers your quality or bartering attempts. You may have been attacked by bandits and lost some of your cargo. Theft, damage to your caravan, etc. can all be taken into account.

Trading is complex as fuck with the system, but most of the complexity is on the DM end, and a few simple programs will make for a great crunchy game.

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>>22944518

That sounds like just what I'm going for. All this information is in Silk Road? I'm definitely going to need to give it a closer look.

>>22944450

Where are the spices? Those are *THE* trade good you'd want to peddle if you're hitting the big time. Something particularly great to note about spices is that there was never a real "dip" in demand during Medieval times; it was always expensive, all the time.

http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm

Bottom of the page has a nice list of prices for various herbs and spices, use as you see fit.

Also for silk and other cloth, I'd recommend making a "bulk" item expressed as a "bolt" of cloth (a bolt is generally 50 square feet, so just multiply what was given in the pastebin by 5 and you're gold.)

>>22944551

Yessir. Down to how many TU (trade units - 50 lbs of material X) fits on the back of a camel. Carrying bulky cloth (1/2 weight/bulk)? Well, you may have to have twenty camels to carry what 10 could carry if it was a 1/1 material. You can then extrapolate to other trade vessels such as ships, airships, Bags of Holding, etc. based on the weight/volume ratios listed.

MMS tools are rarely shitty, but they require someone who is willing to read College History Thesis: The RPG.

As someone who loves history? They're up there with Harn without the pains of having to play Harn or translate it to another system.

>>22944589

Bolt. That's what I was looking for. I knew there was some unit used specifically for measuring cloth.

The spices info looks good, maybe I should do different prices for different spices. ATM they're all at the same price but can vary due to demand and inflation.

I didnt post the part about subdividing broader categories such as "common herb" as it's not finished yet, but the spices came under the same category as herbs.

here is the (unfinished) list though:

http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ikxJfMQM

>>22944618

That is awesome as fuck. It's these kinds of small and fiddly details (how much cloth fits on a freaking camel) that you can't find yourself. I often wish there was a kind of 'intelligent' calculator for these things that could parse and understand items such as "barrel" so I could ask stuff like "how many herrings fit in a barrel"...

>>22944626

Some Herbs and Spices from Silk Road (A-E):

Agar Agrimony Alfalfa Leaf Alfalfa Seed Alkanet
Allspice Aloe Alum Angelica Root Anise Seed Annato Seed Apple Pectin Arabic Gum Arnica Flower Arrowroot Artichoke Ashwagandha Root
Astragalus Barberry Root Barley Grass
Basil Bay Leaf Bayberry Bark Bayberry Root
Bee Pollen Beeswax Beet Root Bell Pepper Root
Bilberry Leaf Birch Bark Black Cohosh Black Haw
Black Walnut Hulls Blackberry Leaf Bladderwrack
Blessed Thistle Bloodroot Blue Cohosh Root Blue Vervain Blueberry Leaf Boldo Leaf Boneset
Borage Brewer's Yeast Broccoli Seed Buckthorn Bark Buckwheat Hulls Bugleweed Bupleurem Root Burdock Seed Butcher's Broom Root

You think this list is extensive? Try the Gems section.

>>22944656

TUs have a specific volume. As long as you know the dimensions you can calculate the TUs which then determines the weight (50 lbs/TU).

>>22944695

Holy shit, and it has prices for them all. I'll probably have to tweak them for 2e but shit. Looks like I'm drawing up individual pricing lists for gems and herbs.

>>22944695

Speaking of extensive; OP, how insanely detailed do you want this to get?

>>22944750

Ideally, I'd like a system that can perfectly simulate the minutiae of economics without being too cumbersome, so that the players can enjoy being merchants while the ridiculous simulationist interplay in the background dictates their fate, and their success or failure is dependent on how well they can play the system.

>>22944735

Sorry, 1 WEIGHT is 50 lbs. Herring (as a pickled fish) is 1/2, so 50 lbs of Herring is 2 TUs and a barrel of herring would run 43 GP with a sturdy barrel.

>>22944749

I've looked at the pricing and it is pretty stable across editions. Not a lot of tweaking required direct from book.

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>>22944814

That's good. The system of trading units will make everything a lot easier. Having a comprehensive reference of all the different commodities and their prices is half the battle; from there, it's figuring out the factors that cause those prices to change, and how they interact.

I get the feeling this is going to suck up a lot of my time.

>>22944774

I don't know man, I love the concept and all but I'm just concerned you're going a bit crazy on something the players won't fully appreciate (or be able to fully comprehend once you show up with a byzantine amount of possibilities/data.)

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Economics in D&D makes no sense because you're not supposed to be concerned with it, basically. You're supposed to be out having adventures and smashing skeletons.

I'd be incredibly interested in playing an economics-focused game, but no system seems to genuinely support it.

>>22944922

All of the actual data can be handled on the DM side, while the players would just need a basic tutorial. All of the actual data can be handled by the DM.

>>22944857

I can send you an Excel document with all of the entries. Using it right now after finding it on ENWorld in an Economy thread.

>>22944958

Economics make complete and utter sense as soon as you say fuck it to the stupidity of infinite loops and ignore the people who think the Economicon is a quality discussion.

>>22944857
>>22944922
>I get the feeling this is going to suck up a lot of my time.

This is a party thing, right? Is the creation of the merchant empire the framework for the campaign, or is it the entire point.

What I mean by that is the difference between, "Your people travel here and learn the local prices are so and so" and "You start setting up your trading outpost, hired goons sweep in and attack (whereupon the game becomes intrigue as they figure out who hired 'em.)"

Blegh, I feel like I'm not properly verbalizing my question, but yeah; is the merchant empire the goal, or the game itself.

>>22944958

>no system seems to genuinely support it

You could argue that no system needs to support it. Economy is very far removed from the actualy crunch of most systems, and is really a bolt-on. It's not like the silly adventuring aspects of D&D and the economic aspects need to clash, though if the enterprising wizard can figure out a way to boost his profits then more power to him.

My players are interested in being merchants, and I don't see why it doesn't work.

>>22944975

I hate the Economicon so freaking much. hurr durr wish economy with all its assumptions of ultra-high magic campaigns.

>>22944961

I would like that very much.

>>22944990

It's probably going to be quite a goal-less campaign (traditional D&D just wander around and adventure stuff), so it's really up to them. They do want to be adventurers, but at the same time some of them are interested in the idea of S&W style economics and building up wealth through trading.

Don't forget about religious effects (see fish on Fridays for catholics), legal stuff (tariffs artificially increasing scarcity in some items/acting as a de facto subsidy for local or connected traders), and political factors (merchant guilds, sales territories, and the like)...oh, social factors too: all that brightly dyed silk won't find buyers where black, gray, and brown are the fashion standard. some items may be seen as immoral even if legal which means finding a buyer would be harder but they might pay more (and all of this can happen on the supply side too).

I kinda now want a rogue trader: east India company game now.

>>22945054

It could go either way, really. I don't really expect them to be satisfied with just trading, and the rogue amongst them will most likely be willing for unscrupulous activities to occur under the radar. Ideally there'd be some way for the adventuring and trading to coexist like in Saltspit, where the trading became both a source of wealth and the spawning point for adventures, such as getting more rods of control made by gathering components from the jungle, and so on.

>>22944958
Never played rogue trader have you?

>>22945057

Seriously, the idea of a medieval merchant game has been touched upon by several systems but I've never seen one that does it justice. There's so much room and so many unaccountable variables, I think that's what makes it hard to write rules for even as it makes it more interesting.

>>22945091
This.
Adventuring gathers rare materials. Think of Toriko and Monster Hunter.

>>22945098

My understanding of RT is that you do some space shenanigans and then roll something against a profit margin. I can't really into 40K, though. Can the game be refluffed?

>>22944518
WIth this system however you can buy anything, even horse dung, and make profit simply because you have travelled far enough, because profit is tied to point of origin, not any inherent value.

Of course, it is impossible to create any simulation of economy that approaches realism with just pen and some sheets, or an excel table. Unless you write a program for that, the best approach is still what you suggest there - the player merchant lives in a tiny bubble and the economy revolves around his actions, with random rolled events simulating economic changes. In sequence they probably won't make any sense, but the player would be an economist to realize that.

>>22945183

In theory. In practice merchants have the right to refuse sale of materials.

You do understand that NPCs aren't required to purchase things because the party wants to sell them, right?

>>22945183

Create a perfect economy? Impossible.
Create a believable economic simulator through generators? Completely possible.

>>22945091
That rogue should be up for some smuggling.

Also, adventures are your way to find suppliers, to open markets, to.curry.favor, to discover resources, to defend your trade interests (recall that where you get certain items would be a closely guarded secret and the source of much intrigue) and the like.

Duke john's daughter is missing. The party will find her...oh no good sir, we would never take payment for doing such a favor for our friends.
A few months pass. Yo duke, you know those tariffs...
(bonus points if the party kidnapped her in the first place)

Have too much lace you can't sell? Take care of an annoying suitor to the lady.who sets the areas fashions in the condition she wears your lace and loudly sings its praises...

There is plenty of room for adventure.

>>22945203

This.

No matter how complex, no system can perfectly simulate an economy if the NPCs are being run as cardboard cutouts. Merchants have their own motivations; some a risk-takers, some aren't; they aren't skyrim-esque pools of money who will spend their last septim and then sit there broke for a week until they restock.

or kill them and reload

>>22945091

At the risk of sounding like I'm just throwing away the work of everyone else, I'd recommend just working out a rudimentary system of barter/economics and seeing how that goes.

If you go too deep they'll be dissuaded, but if you go too deep YOU might get burned out from all the crunching

>>22945248

That's basically what I've got at the moment. about 400 lines, a big-ass list of commodities, and a basic system for adding and subtracting price based on several factors. if they get into it or if I have the free time, I'm considering make it more involved, especially as have access to this wonderful-seeming book about the silk road.

>>22945012

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlD6AOYbd5TUdExhc3JYV282V3dTZ2pQVm9mYWF4ZXc&output=html

This is what you're looking at. I don't believe it will parse in the public format, bu if you post your email I can shoot you a copy and save you some time.

>>22945157
You are right and wrong...depends on how it is ran.
I wouldn't try to refluff though. Would be as much work as just making up a system.

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>>22945247

You could probably set up an alignment matrix for merchants between Risk-Averse/Profit-Maximizing and Scruples. Scrupulous Risk-Averse might be a banker who requires extensive paperwork and collateral before loaning you ten gold, a profit-maximizing low-scruples merchant might be a smuggler or a black-market merchant. Depending on your negotiator's techniques and alignments certain deals might be more or less expensive, or completely off the table.

>>22945298

c276861@rmqkr.net

thanks

>>22945310

That'd be interesting. Risk-averse would be the guy who deals in eggs and wheat his whole life because they're stable and never makes much money, while the other end of the spectrum would be desperate Kraft who decides "fuck it, we're smuggling gold".

>>22945267

What's the party's introduction into the world of trade? Do they come across a ruined caravan, inherit some tracts of land, etc.?

Speaking of land, I'd highly recommend alluding to the fact they'll need to buy property and start developing it. Players eat those kinds of money sinks UP.

Hell, to make it even easier on them (and for you) you can make the trades itself automated; they hire out caravans carrying certain goods and said caravan leaders return with the profits and info they gleaned while on the trail. It let's them be as hand's on as they want while eliminating the risk of making the entire thing a dull "you travel here, get a few random encounters, sell it and come back, repeat."

>>22945310

Personally I would just establish a as many merchants as your maximum Expert roll in a specific demographic region, then provide them with a randomized table of what they will purchase/won't purchase. Thus Merchant A is randomly generated as buying Spices, but refusing to purchase Arms and Armor. You also need to know how much the merchant is willing to spend to offload, what they currently having in stock, and what they have for trade/payment.

Would be a pretty simple thing to do once you have the tables ready.

>>22945341

Heh, great minds. We've just moved over from pathfinder to 2e, and I've been heavily emphasising the whole Strongholds and settlements aspects. They're all pretty stoked, one of them has already bought a small house in a keep. I get the feeling that their eventual goal is to build some kind of massive fortress and become kings, mercantile or otherwise.

>>22945341

One of them is also a wannabe knight, so he may be granted a fiefdom at some point.

I am very interested to see this compiled project a couple of you have developed.

Does anyone have a complete price sheet of all materials, as well as the price for camels/work etc per day and such.

>>22945315

Sent. Now all you need to do is extract, figure out the system, and go from there. I didn't include livestock or some of the other items in Silk Road which don't go in easy with TUs so that you can include them if you wish. Most of those items are goods in the SRD, like completed plate or barding.

>>22945344

A great way to quickly generate merchants is to do a top-down approach; start with the Merchant Guilds and work your way until you get to families.

Another thing to do is take the map of your setting and just start drawing borders to represent Merchant Guild influence, and from there draw borders in THOSE borders to represent Families.

>>22945420

The information on carriage of animals, carts, etc. is in Silk Road. Never actually converted it as it is mostly simple calculations or can be bypassed for all but the largest, most stuffed carvans/ships.

>>22945420

check out Magical Society: The Silk Road. it's quite hard to find as a pdf, but it has loads of information on this stuff as discussed earlier in the thread.

I'm intending to develop this, at the very least to merge what I currently have with some of the stuff in that book, particularly the information on logistics (camel haulage) and pricing. So if it's successful, I'll come back to /tg/ and post the completed project.

>>22945430

Well, yeah. But I'm talking about those who actually do the merchant work in a specific town. Nameless rank and file guys who work for the larger groups. If your party then gets to know that guy who purchases their silks? Awesome. If not? Just an barter roll or two.

>tfw this is another project /tg/ will never complete

we need to get together and hammer this out. a few days of work and an epic generator to support a whole new type of game?

lets do it.

>>22945532

It would be awesome if we could. The material's all there, it just needs to be drawn together into a coherent system.

Even if this falls to shit, I fully intend to work on it for myself, so I'll post that when it's finished if nothing else.

>>22945555

Put it on 1d4chan, under the name.

Magical Economy

how about that?

>>22945709

Doing it now. It's good to see that /tg/ hasn't completely lost its interest in crunch.

>>22945726

Crunch is the best thing I love about tg, that is why I play GURPS.

>>22945532

I'm planning on running a merchant-focused quest in the next few weeks, parts of this touches on things I've been wanting to do in in it.

Whether or not you think that's worthwhile depends on your opinion on /tg/ quests, I suppose.

>>22945803

If you find a way to put it up online? We will love you forever.

>>22946071

I think he means a quest as in a quest thread, in which case it will be on /tg/

>>22946109

/tg/ needs more quest threads like I need a bowel obstruction.

>>22945310
At this point you'd be better of writing a game of dwarf-fortress-esque complexity than playing a tabletop game.

Simulating each of a thousand merchant's particular aptitudes and likes and dislikes and then automating trade between them? That's not really what a tabletop game is good at.

>>22946476

not who you're replying to but,

it wouldn't need all that surely? all you'd need was random generators. Aka, what /tg/ is good at.

1d4.chan.org/wiki/Magical_Economy
1d4.chan.org/wiki/Talk:Magical_Economy

it'd be cool if someone could archive this and add a link to the talk page

>>22946549

That's my thought. You don't have to simulate the entire economy in detail any more than you have to simulate every single monster on the continent when you're running a dungeon crawl, you just use a random generator (or pregenerate NPC templates) for people the party encounters.

>>22946585

OP here.

It's like how I said in the original pastebin I posted. You don't need to map out every merchant in existence, just the one the players come into contact with. As with all thins in RPGs, the world extends about 100 feet from the PCs at all times.

>>22946476

Except that, with currently available technology, we can have both. The DM serves as the keeper, keeps track of developments, fills out all of the tools and clicks a button to simulate hundreds of dice rolls in seconds.

A program that could generate a random map, populate it, give weather patterns, provide trade, and a 'seed' that DMs could send around the world as an example of their game world.

Horrible, isn't it?

>>22946613

oh my god I think I just nutted in my pants.

>>22946613

It's possible, yes, but what good does it do to know the interactions between two traders a continent away from the party who they'll never encounter?

I still might take a stab at it because economics be a cruel mistress, but I cannot turn away from her charms.

>>22946674

>Economy tanks in Location A
>Weather states dry, hot seasons ahead
>Unrest High
>Disease chart has hit hard in the area due to high Unrest and Economy tanking
>Players hear news of a war in the West where famine is occurring

What do we do about this situation?

>Player speaks to a Sailor coming from Location B
>Booming economy, ship manifest loaded with copper and ivory

Great elephants have returned to the plains of B, and with them dozens of mines where men toil and face threats. Conflict, Coin, and Conspiracies abound.

Is your body ready for the SuperMap?

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>>22946795
>>22946613

I keep pressing it to the screen and nothing happens.

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>>22946213

TOO LATE

MOTHERFUCKER

Economy Quest: You are an economy.

>[ ] Expand
>[ ] Contract
>[ ] Crazy Ivan

>>22946900

This keeps getting better and better.

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>>22946900

I must consult my advisors...

>>22946900


CHOICES!

SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The state takes one and gives it to someone else.
COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The State takes both of them and gives you the milk.
FASCISM: You have two cows. The State takes both of them and sells you the milk.
MILITARY DICTATORSHIP: You have two cows. The State takes both of them and shoots you.
BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. The state takes both of them, accidentally kills one and spills the milk in the sewer.
CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to decide who gets the milk.
AMERICAN DEMOCRACY: The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it. After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate".
ANARCHY: You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors kill you and take the cows.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3wj353ha5vv4u37

Grain into Gold, OP.

It's concrete as fuck, and doesn't so much have "rules" as "this is how to build a feudal economy."

>>22947061

Good choice, but for the actual workhorse you gotta go Silk Road as they're pretty much the same fucking book.

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>>22946969

You have chosen a bear market. Economic output decreases as day traders retreat to caves to hibernate. Bears emerge from their slumber and wander Wall Street, hungry for foreign bonds and salmon.

>[ ] BAILOUT
>[ ] LET THE BEARS DRIVE THEIR BANKS INTO THE FUCKING GROUND, THEY'RE SCARY
>[ ] DRINK MORE

Wondering if it just might be easier to take a professional economic simulator already built for this sort of stuff and toss our values into it.

Anyone got any ideas?

>>22947177

There's not really a fantasy economy simulator that can handle that kind of work that I know of...

>>22946900
>[X] Crazy Ivan
Clearly the only choice. In any context.

>>22947108
DRINK MORE

Sobriety is for pussies.

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>>22947227

>YOU FINISH ANOTHER BEER. THIS JOKE HAS WORN THIN. YOU DECIDE TO PLAY WITH YOUR DOG AND WATCH RED DWARF.

Good questin', everyone. Real good hustle out there.

>>22947304
Good end.

>>22947217

any economic simulator, then you throw fantasy elements into it.

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>>22944074

how this economy plays out depends heavily on how developed finance and banking is at this time.

some quick and dirty reading on the subject http://www.xat.org/xat/moneyhistory.html

>>22947757

Thanks, more material is always welcome

>>22947779

its mostly just history, for real nuts and bolts of capital exchange things can get much more arcane (mainly because money itself is a fiat commodity).

for instance, alot of this, http://202.114.224.27/pub/kjs/jxyd/jxsc/200811/P020081109637160630739.pdf is fairly impenetrable to someone without an interest in the field.

>>22947901

Interesting read. I like it.

>>22948368

as a saying goes, one of the most dangerous phrases in economics is 'financial innovation'.

understanding how these institutions developed over time can inform whatever theme youre going for in your campaign, and of course who the major power players will be.

some more things for you

http://www.ehs.org.uk/ehs/conference2009/Assets/MooreFullPaper.pdf

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/endmiddle/bluedot/banking.html

>>22948976

Gentleman and/or scholar, and the poster /tg/ needs.

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>>22949026

its an oft ignored element of history and politics, so i enjoy chances to talk about it.

Reading this got me thinking about how I'd represent it well enough for a TTRPG. I'll just stream of consciousness for now:

- Rolling high gives a small bonus for future rolls and vice versa. Kinda simulates general market movement.
- Bartering could involve rolling within ever decreasing dice ranges; certain merchants could start off with a larger or smaller range, perhaps determined from a dice roll or picking from a table (so the whole market isn't hostile - more of a fun concern than an accuracy concern).
- Game-wise, danger ALWAYS equals more profit, although this might be me being dumb.
- Caravan guards, etc. have a Rank; Bandits, etc. are a die. Roll under to avoid bad stuff. Switch them around and roll over?
- What if your bartering ability was represented by a dice pool? What if you could apply modifiers to your roll after you rolled it?
- Demand in a location is a dice pool, with a Religion die, a Nobility die, etc.; different locations then have different size die for each category.
- ...Kinda want feedback now...

>>22947757
Damn. I think I have a new antagonist in mind for the next campaign I run.

>>22949369

You don't want to do that. Conspiracyfags will come to your house and spraypaint you with Illuminati symbols.

>>22947095
Speaking of silkroad: http://pdfspider.com/140022-DD-3rd-ed-A-Magical-SocietySilk-Road-pdf

if you don't have it, snap it up gentlemen

>>22949631

Well, I would never suggest such a thing! It is a fantastic book and should be paid for.

>>22944074
>5 pounds of mithral is equivalent to 1 pound iron

Really? Weight is an immutable property, and it can't be used like that. It'd be more appropriate if it took a much higher volume of mithral to make 1 pound compared to iron.

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>WIth this system however you can buy anything, even horse dung, and make profit simply because you have travelled far enough, because profit is tied to point of origin, not any inherent value.

Welcome to pre-railroad economy. Enjoy your stay.

>>22952774

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Public/Prices.html?w=AAB5ooDROajDfM4TlZ0TuJ0LRH0iItgw6tqNE4SDZP6HLw

Condensed Silk Road rules with a few changes made (20 days travel becomes 400 miles, converted 3E's DC system to direct percentage equivalent). Will be useful in designing a simulation.

This has also been added to the wiki page at 1d4chan.org/wiki/Magical_Economy

bump

>>22955107

For some reason it is just not working.

>>22958907

my bad.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20499743/Prices.html

that's the proper link, updating the wiki with it now. i'm working on another one with a table of contents

>>22958970

Tweaking the 2 highest adjustments on both size 10% less extreme in either direction. Otherwise the - is actually impossible short of divine intervention. That way they are just really, really, really unlikely.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20499743/Economy.xhtml

With a table of contents for ease of use.

>>22959487

What do you mean?

>>22960273

on the -120/-100 drop it to -110/-90 and boost the +25/+30 to +35/+40.

That is a helpful ToC though, and I like the formatting (though I would suggest table formatting your information on communities, transactions, etc. to make it clearer.)

>>22960351

Thanks, I just fixed a problem where the first half of it wouldn't work because I used the deprecated NAME tag instead of id.

As for the buy/sell adjustments, I did think they're a bit harsh, I was considering changing them. They were pretty much copied directly from the sourcebook and converted to percentages (-2 to DC becomes +10% chance to succeed).

How would you advise formatting the info on haggling?

>>22960476

Well you do have to remember that DCs increase much quicker when you have no ceiling. So it is really just a matter of setting up a test and running a couple thousand examples to see what would be the best results.

>>22960842

True, although this DC is not modified as it is in 3e. It's not like a bluff check or anything, it's only really modified by the factors such as the size of the population, magnitude of the transaction, etc. The only place where your skill apply is in the "merchan skill stat", which was originally a combination of your bluff, diplomacy and several other skill - but since I was reworking it a little for 2e, I replaced that with NWPs.

>>22961037

True, but you need to take into account that your players will have less active control over the percentage, and adjust accordingly. Personally I think just that small of a bump makes the checks possible without causing too many issues.

>>22961076

I think you may have a point. It does seem to get a bit steep at the edges. A 20% reduction in chance of success based on a 5% lower price is a bit extreme.

I'll run the numbers a bit and see.

>>22961259

Sounds good, post results of data

>>22962270

4chan thinks it's spam. probably because all the talk of buying and selling.

http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CKMdS75A

>>22962270

adjusted the table as per your suggestion - -120/-100 becomes -110/-90, and +25/+30 becomes +35/+40

that should serve to balance out the steep curve at the edges.

This is all pretty solid stuff, though a bit on the macro side. Might see what I can work into a more zoomed-in/individual transactions level.

OP, I'd have suggested you just use REIGN as your engine for an Economics game. It minimizes the book-keeping while still allowing you to have character do the crunchy combat/adventuring stuff just as easily as the political intrigue.

Still, I like what I see, so far. Real potential, here

>>22963090

Individual transactions can be done with the engine with a minimum of PC rolls.

>>22945000
What is the Economicon?

>>22963509
I think it's this: a thought experiment that looks at the implications of DnD 3.5's wealth distribution, skill rules and the net effects accessible of high-level magics. It's interesting to examine, but shouldn't be treated as the be-all and end-all in DnD Economics

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_(DnD_Other)/Economicon

>>22963509

An old D&D supplement to explain trade and prices in the setting. Not much good, but if you make a thread about economics in fantasy you're guaranteed two things - Horo spam and someone linking to the Economicon.

>>22963509

The biggest piece of shit discussion of economics in D&D possible. Pretty much there for those who think that infinite loops spells work indefinitely with no effect on an economy.

It's always wheeled out in Economy threads, and is a horrid thought experiment.

>>22962643

Well, what you need to do is actually run the rolls, and go from there.

Bump due to this shit being interesting.

>>22963636

Oh WeeabooPete. Why did you have to post this?

Morning gentlemen.

Anyone still working on this?

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>>22955107
>personally travelling the whole Silk Road

Yeah, that like hardly ever happened. Even the Silex trade within Europe probably had a whole lot of middlemen.

>>22970091

There's no mention of travelling the whole silk road in that document. Silk Road is just the name of the system.

The Silk Road sourcebook that the system is extrapolated from explicitly says that it's unlikely a single merchant will traverse the silk road, and that wares will change wares many times.

>>22969819

I am. Just updated the very basic Arms & Armour to a full list of armour, weapons, helms and shields.

>>22973346

Silk Road produces commodities. Think the costs put in Silk Road were there for resources rather than finished product.

>>22973408

Nah, they had armour stuff before, it was just very basic.

So instead of "chain mail" "full plate" etc, they would have "Armour, Heavy" and "Armour, Light". I went ahead and expanded that. Besides, the silk road goods list has loads of finished goods, and arms and armour are totally valuable commodities

How should you work out prices for slaves, when they'll depend on things that vary from setting to setting (race/monster availability, etc) and kingdom to kingdom (whether it's a black market, how easily people become enslaved, etc)?

>>22976075

Not really sure about slaves and their value. I'd advise establishing a base price for an unskilled humanoid slave, and maybe work out adjustments to value for skills or strength. As for non-humanoid slaves, I'd give them a higher base value based on any special abilities they may have, though other factors may be important. I'd classify anything non-sentient as a tamed animal, and anything sentient as a slave.

>>22964188
Horrid how?

>>22978005
See >>22963636.

>>22978080
Well that doesn't make it horrid per se. I've always thought it was fun, since most of what's written there are perfectly acceptable given the default power level of 3.5e D&D. It's a case study in how people often don't think about what they're writing, and the implications of that sort of thing on the world around them.

I mean, it hardly applies to an E6 game, for example, or for a game of Runequest or Swords and Wizardry or whatever else, but it does highlight an interesting way to play the game as written.

>>22976283
That sounds like a good strategy.

>I'd classify anything non-sentient as a tamed animal, and anything sentient as a slave.
I'd agree with this.

>>22978206

And completely misses the idea of supply and demand, has redundant wage scales, and then introduces all of its own comments?

It's a piece of shit. Worse than most things posted on /tg/... And that's saying something.

It's probably better to create an economic system from scratch, then fit the D&D equipment into it, rather than working from D&D prices.

>>22986916

>Multiple successful presentations in thread
>hurrdurr scratch it up

Stop. Please, just stop.

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>>22945183
Horse dung IS a commodity.
For one it is a great binding agent to whitewashing houses. Getting the chalk dust to stick to the clay...
I don't think it was ever traded in bulk or was in high demand but it has (very low) value.

>>22987249

Yes, but the value is largely based on local availability. In places where dung was used as a material it was used due to a lack of better/equivalent materials for cheaper. No one's buying horse dung from across the world.

Bat guano, on the other hand...

>>22988569
People have fought wars over bird/bat shit deposits. Before good synthetic options, it was some of the best fertilizer in the world.

>>22988590

You did notice the "on the other hand" right?

So what have we got so far today?

>>22991259

I'm not really sure where to go from here, what do you suggest? The economy system is actually pretty fleshed out at this point; I'm sure there's more to be done, but can't see what, except maybe the stuff about slaves.

captcha: small Analift

>>22991325

Create a program as we have discussed in thread to generate spheres of trade?

>>22991518

Alright. I've seen a lot of ideas in this thread, ranging between everything from a Dwarf Fortress style world simulator to a basic calculator for quantities, supply, demand, etc.

I have the skill to code it, although a massive simulation is more than I'm willing to do alone. I need to know, though; what is the scope of the program?

>>22991555

Generating a trade map for X spheres would probably be best. Some way that you could put selected items, selected qualities, and valuations on selling and buying.

There are a lot of different things it could do, but a mercantile simulator has a few different ways to go.. What would you be comfortable doing?

>>22991581

I've never really dabbled in randomly-generated maps, dwarf fortress style, so I might have some difficulty with that.

Is this program going to be intended to map out supply and demand for an existing setting, or generate new maps?

>>22991659

You wouldn't need to literally map. What you need to do is generate spheres of trade. Much simpler, as it is really just a matter of linking series of variables to outcomes in trade.

While I think the initial way to do it may be a bit complex... Once you have the most basic solution it should be far quicker than mapping.

>>22991682

Alright, I'm liking the sound of this. What would these spheres of trade consist of, then? Are they roughly geographical, and define supply/demand/etc within a given area?

From what you're saying, I'm envisioning something that generates a sphere of trade, along with the supply and demand of certain goods in that area. Is this what you mean?

If so, do you think it should be wholly random (press button to generate a sphere of trade) or be based partially upon user input.

It's kind of sliding scale from completely user controlled (basically just a fancy calculator) to completely random (generates everything spontaneously).

OOT: I just realised that Ctrl+S auto-spoilers.

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>Posting in an 'Economic Growth' thread.

So other than Spice and Wolf & Maoyuu Maou Yuusha, is there any other Medieval Economy Anime? I'm not so sharp on my pre-1990's anime.

>>22991725

I think that the ability to scale randomization is a great idea. Also would be nice to have a randomizing/editable quality listing. For example, maybe Sphere A considers Silk to be +2 quality (Shit silk is Average silk, Average Silk is... You get the idea).

Personally I think that the best way to make it simple would be the ability to generate X random spheres with Y random goods of Z random values, with the ability to mix and match as you see fit. It would also be cool if you could somehow generate microspheres within that group so that a Country may have a certain value for certain materials, but a specific city may have really high quality versions of their native specialty and/or give a premium for specific goods.

>>22991764

I don't really know of any apart from those two. Apparently the Light Novel series of S&W takes the story a lot further though.

>>22991764

No fucking clue. I just love economic systems for RPGs due to a summer spent with two broken legs and a copy of Uncharted Waters 2 and a cheap TV.

>>22991773

Alright so the three factors would be: what goods they consider to be higher/lower quality that their actual quality, what goods are in demand (or have very low demand), and what good are in close supply for X sphere. I'll try to keep distances out of it so that it generally applies to any size civilisation, though I get the feeling that this kind of system would be better suited to simulating X locale and Y locale rather than trying to use it to simulate all trade in the Z Empire. Maybe define a Sphere as being one settlement or something? That may be too micro-scale though; it depends what detail you want to go into - just say "country X has a high demand for silk", or go into "there is a high demand for silk in the city of Y".

Would probably also be cool to maybe design a couple "templates" that could be applied to a sphere. For example, "seaside" would increase supply of fish.

>>22991831

Well, of course. I would probably have 20 or so items around, and have quality (+/- normal quality). May be good to have Quality determined as an category thing (this settlement is -2 Quality for Herbs, or +3 Quality for Armor) just to make it simple, and 20 trade goods. Have a single item as a Staple (this sphere is known for Fine Wine or Cinnamon) also. That way PCs can still sell anything they want, but they can also gain information that Sphere A is desperately seeking Iron Ore or what have you.

>>22991869

Alright, that's enough for me to work with. I probably won't start tonight as I have a session in a few hours (one of my character is interested in buying and selling commodities - might be a nice segue) but I'll write up the function of the program to the 1d4chan page and start working on it this week.

>>22991891

ok, written up.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Magical_Economy

>>22991950

Read it, and it sounds fantastic. Now if we could just find a way to take this tool and make it work at the next level up and down it would be glorious. A little Merchant Stall Generator and a system that could take the output provided for those spheres and make alterations due to random events and flux in the market.

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>>22991764

Medieval, no. You should probably watch [C], though. It presents itself like a shonen fighting anime but shifts focus almost immediately to something between an ontological horror/mystery and a metaphor for the problems with devaluing your currency in order to avoid a temporary economic depression.

In any case, it's only twelve episodes long, just get past the first two or three and you're gold.

Shouldn't we include rules for magical transport? Depending on how readily available teleportation is, wouldn't the cost of transporting goods be negligible?

>>22992462

If you could train a Roc to carry cargo, would that reduce the cost of transporting goods over mountains and seas?

>>22992462

I did something very basic along those lines by calculating the capacity of bags of holding and portable holes.

For a lot of forms of magical transport, such as teleportation, the logistical side is taken care of in the spell - if you can teleport 50 pounds with you and you have 30 pounds of silk, then you're golden.

>>22992462

What would be interesting is working out the carrying capacities of some of the more common magical animals. For example, as the above poster said, Rocs.

I'm totally imagining goblin caravans with teams of ogres hauling carts now.

>>22992462
>>22992499

Depending on how the magic of the setting works, a few low-level wizards setting up teleportation circles in major trade cities could make a killing.

>instantaneous transport
>no danger of bandit attacks

I might take this idea and run with it as a subplot in a merchant-focused quest.

>>22992462

The fact that there is an associated freight % for goods (5%/20 miles per the text) you don't really need to do that. Your Merchant Wizard would be able to factor in his theoretical transportation costs.

Of course the numbers also show a comparison about the value of magical transportation over traditional caravans/ships for large stable trade goods. You could, in theory, use teleportation in short term trade for cornering short term fluctuations in high value/low bulk materials, but the overall cost of a merchant to have a caravan's worth of goods transported in that manner (450 GP minimum per casting, plus having a 9th level NPC available as you offload your trade goods) could be less profitable in most day-to-day trading.

Mages are the Air Freight of Magical Society commerce.

I can't into economics, but I admire all you gentlemen!

>>22992603

This.

Campaign setting is a huge factor. For higher-magic settings it may be feasible. For my setting, if you have a 9th-level wizard on your payroll you sure as shit ain't using him to transport goods.

>>22992603

But cargo Rocs...

>>22992630

They would probably give an advantage over difficult terrain. Remember, your value is 20 miles of travel = 5%. Anything that makes that happen faster would be a benefit. Zombie camels, rocs, quickling horses, blink dog sled teams trained to blinking in teams, couriers with giant magic carpets ...

Plenty of cool ways to get around it.

I always wanted to play a nomad merchant half orc... will you grant me that wish?

>>22992655

Travel via the Ethereal Plane - guaranteed bandit free!*

*MakeaWish Co. does not accept liability for accidents as a result of night hags, ghosts, nightmares, shadows or other incorporeal horrors.

>>22992668

We'll do our darndest, anon.

>>22947037
>CAPITALISM: You have two cows and overwork them until they get dry, then you make "donations" to the mayor who in response he takes over the other villager's cows and give them to you because "We are in a milk crisis"

>>22992655

Thrown by a Giant could be fast and reliable.

As long as he doesn't miss...

>>22992688

If you can get from Point A to Point B, do it. Of course if someone learns your secret place to find the Unobtainable Good and then begins to do what you do, or you flood the market? You're going to fuck up the sales you're trying to make.

I'm personally a fan of the idea of permanent spectral steeds or the mushing blink dogs, though a necromancer providing access to a coach that can travel through the Ethereal or Shadow with protection for smuggling operations would be a badass thin to see.

>>22992737

Could work if you have a scroll of featherfall. Otherwise you and your goods may not survive the landing.

>>22992745

Didn't even think of the smuggling side, how awesome would that be? Your caravan full of sweet sweet skooma stops 1 mile out of the city limits and just plain disappears. 2 hours later, it reappears - inside of a warehouse in the slums.

Hm... You know... I've always thought about how would it be playing a fantasy setting without magic or gods, just with elves, orcs, dwarves... everyone doing regular medieval things.

>>22992770

It can be very interesting; the focus changes entirely. You can do it in AD&D without too much difficulty. Maybe look into Riddle of Steel if you want to have no magic, but still have adventurer-scale games going on

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>>22992764

Smuggling, false goods, and trade imbalance through crafty merchants. You too can collapse the economy of a nation through sending dozens of Rogue/Traders with UMD and Teleport Scrolls to corner the market on important goods.

>mfw I use my network to negotiate the trade of millions of suits of munitions armor days before a sneak attack invasion of the nation by my hordes.

Sure, you just need a universally accepted objective theory of economics.

Oh. Wait.

>>22992831

Sure, just like in order to simulate combat we need a 100% faithful system to determine the events of a melee.

Oh. Wait.

>>22992831

>Creating the most in-depth tabletop economics system known to man or beast
>muh precious econ

As we are covering a in economic terms simplistic generator to present a strong multi-layer approach in handling trade? This is about as good as it gets.

But if you have actual crunch to add beyond scorn, please provide information.

>>22992831
As sweet as that would be, I think we will accept something slightly less accurate as long as it is sufficiently detailed and coherent. Also the first rule of any GM is to use the rules when convient. If the don't make sense, disregard them for the moment, then use them again when they fit in better.

>>22993022

This.

You don't need a a faithful simulation, but one that seems faithful to the players.

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>>22944074

Cool!

>Read thread

Ambitious, possible, and crunchy?

/tg/ you amaze me.

I will be running a game where two devils decided to see if they can change the nature of a man through the forces of devilish capitalism. The world's greatest trader is swapped with a rogue from the slums of the world's most dangerous city, and through trickery, magic, and economics the two devils try to break their souls over a bet of a single silver piece. Will the two mortals learn of the plan in time to beat the devils at their own game?

>>22993066

That sounds like it'll be great fun. Good luck with it, and be sure to really immerse the players into the trader atmosphere.

>>22993066

Will there be an imp who follows them, and then is trapped in the form of a polymorphed female gorilla for repeated rapes in the jungles of their repatriated home?

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>>22993135

>>22993343

It's a reference to the movie mentioned in my post

>>22993066

It's heavily implied that one of the banker's henchman is locked in with a gorilla who makes sweet, sweet love to him while he's trapped in a gorilla costume. You sound young or missing funny in your life.

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This is your rogue.

>>22993595

How would a sudden introduction of Golem tailoring impact the clothing market?
I'd assume they'd set up an unassailable monopoly, since they can churn out amazing quality suits like that one all day, every day.

>>22993791

The unchecked, constant mechanization of any manufactured product with high qualiy will drive entry level quality up and eliminate competitors while, if unchecked, driving the profitability of your products down sharply.

So no golem stitches.

>>22993885
Sure you have to doing cheaply in the short run, but can't you up the prices once everyone else is out and you hold the larges share of the market?

>>22994308
Sorry

I meant

to do it cheaply

>>22994308

In theory, yes. In practice? You will be creating more product than the market can bear, and would have to develop appropriate countermeasures to protect yourself from such an issue (stockpiling would be the simplest path). You could also expand your business to other trade groups.

Bump.

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Let's get more people to see this awesome work.

>>22999915

Currently working on the sphere-of-trade generator

>>22993791

Low-fashion work clothing becomes cheap, haute-couture custom-made clothing becomes more of a luxury item. The price and quality gap between inferior and superior goods in this market widens.

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still working on it, getting the options down.

the idea is you can choose what's high-demand and what's low-demand in this sphere of trade and it will select items from those categories

>>23001564

Promising so far...

>>23001564

Looks promising so far. What I would like to see is how spheres interact and how many generate per spin.

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>>23001564

it continues...

The GUI is done. Now for the actual simulation.

>>23002708
>one million checkboxes
Make that a table with names and a column of checkboxes, damn.

>>23003445

I'll make it prettier once it works, just getting a working program for now.

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>>23002708

It's coming together...

Alas, I must go to a lecture. If i'm not too tired from the all-nighter when I return then I will finish and share it.

>>23004674

Sweet! Looks awesome so far.

Bump to keep this thread alive.

>this thread is going

How will I Horo spam other threads? Think of /tg/'s needs!

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>>23007861

we're here for you

It's just about ready! The sort of alpha prototype version, that is.

>>23008129

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20499743/SphereGen/SphereGen_Windows_v1.zip

And there it is. It comes in the form of an EXE file, although if you don't trust me I've also included the C# source code and you can compile it yourself if you want, just make sure to include references to System.Windows.Forms and System.Windows.Drawing.

Although I wrote it in C#, I've only tested it on Linux, so let me know if it fucks up in any way and I'll fix it. Screenshots help. I'm anticipating things overlapping, since that's happened to me in the past with these things.

/tg/ you sexy bastard, I already had a plan to make this in video game form and then you went ahead and got the same idea. I love you.

>>23008217

The formatting doesn't work in Windows 7. Just generates a wall of text that is really difficult to parse and doesn't form a clear table.

This makes almost as little sense as an economic model as D&D does for a combat model. So I guess that's a success.

>>23009005

>Provides no critique
>Proceeds to be a cunt

/tg/ can't into crunch.

>>23008217
same with >>23008964
this fella, just a wall of text that is very hard to disect

Bumping to keep this thread alive.

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This thread is awesome, the programming anon even more so. Stay awesome, bro, stay awesome.

Working on fixing the wall o' text problem...

I think I forgot to include a carriage return on the newlines, hopefully this one should solve the problem.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20499743/SphereGen/SphereGen_Windows_v2.zip

>>23012013

=================== Sphere of Trade ====================

Demand:

Wind Instruments: -10% price
Rouge: +10% price
Percussion Instruments: -10% price
Face Powder: +10% price
Rocksalt: +25% price
Basic Instruments: -10% price
Steel: +25% price
Soap, Colored a/o Perfumed: +10% price
Keyboard Instruments: -10% price
Henna: +10% price
Beeswax: +10% price
Copper: +10% price
Brass: +25% price

Supply:

Soap, Lye: Produced 724 miles away, +1 adjustment to perceived value.
Shoes/Boots: Produced 770 miles away, +1 adjustment to perceived value.
Butter: Produced 802 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.
Fine Clothing (Various): Produced 111 miles away, +0 adjustment to perceived value.
Hair Comb: Produced 827 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.
Artisan Clothing (Various: Produced 234 miles away, +0 adjustment to perceived value.
Cheese, Hard: Produced 835 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.
Menthol: Produced 105 miles away, +0 adjustment to perceived value.
Perfume Oils: Produced 857 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.
Rugs: Produced 923 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.
Butcher's Broom Root: Produced 1039 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.
Wig: Produced 107 miles away, +0 adjustment to perceived value.
Yogurt: Produced 823 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.
Lace: Produced 586 miles away, +1 adjustment to perceived value.
Linen: Produced 909 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.
Blue Vervain: Produced 550 miles away, +1 adjustment to perceived value.
Wild Cherry Bak: Produced 168 miles away, +0 adjustment to perceived value.
Parsley Root: Produced 645 miles away, +1 adjustment to perceived value.
Wig Powder: Produced 1108 miles away, +2 adjustment to perceived value.

Am I looking at NotFrance?

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>>23012105

I lol'd

Glad to hear it works now then, the program itself is basically done. I might make a couple more versions to maybe tighten up the algrorithms and make it look a little prettier; what I'll do is put a link on the 1d4chan page and update it if I make more editions.

Thanks for being classy, /tg/. This project was great fun.

>>23012156

But now we must move forward. To a true economic system.

>>23014367

No-one shall stop your dreams, Anon. Go forth, and make that true economic system!

I've updated the 1d4chan page and turned it from a loose record into a semi-proper article, updated it with the right links and the latest version of the program; I'm considering it done from here.

Let no one say that /tg/ does not get shit done.

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>>23017083

Programmer anon, you are a prince among anons. Thanks for this.

Why is she so perfect?

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>>23021233

>You will never have a wolf demigoddes waifu demand that you bring her apples.

>>23022299
Do you enjoy breaking hearts? Hm? Does that get you off, pal? Hey, you fuck! Answer me! Hey! You enjoy breaking my heart?

>>23022381

If you want a replacement, I have some singer's heart I won off a starship trooper.

>>23022422
How did you get that?

Kraft Lawrence (クラフト・ロレンス Kurafuto Rorensu)

>>23022434

Well, I was at Starfleet Control when Arcadia Niner Niner Zero, piloted by Captain Strange - one of the best Federation fighter pilots I know - had a serious vector deviation at five mark six.
I'm talking condition red, here.

Anyway, we got hold of him, he broke out a deck of cards, one thing lead to another and now I have Sarah Brightman's heart.

(I put too much effort into that. I mean, checking the song lyrics?)

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>>23022381

>Pic related will never happen
>yfw?

>>23022581
I just got mine from Sister Bluebird.

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>>23023105
I'll find you, amigo. I'll find you and I'll cut you for stomping all over my poor, delicate heart. You fuck.

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One thing I would be careful of is to ensure your price values don't get too distorted.

A good way to keep the prices you set fairly grounded is to try and tie your currency to some easily appraised level of value - this was done with many historical currencies. The denarius was essentially the value of unskilled labour for a day. The incomes of Japanese nobles were measured in koku - one koku being the amount of rice it took to feed a man for a year.
Of course this doesn't get into thorny things like debasement and the like, but it's a simple rule of thumb when trying to determine prices on the fly.

>>22991764

Maoyuu is arguably not a "medieval economics" anime per se, since it's more about the anachronistic application of new technology and modern principles to a medieval society.

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>>23023208

I only say these things so someone else can suffer as I have suffered.

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>>23024195
Hermano, I am not playing around here. You want me to suffer because you're suffering? You know what that is, friend? That is evil. Cruelty. You are the big bad guy in my adventure for apples and economics. You are an evil little man who is about to find himself in a ditch because he wants to be a heart breaker. So listen here and you listen well, you fuck. I will destroy you, then I will get some apples. Store opens in 30 minutes, so I'm getting some apples, and I will wait for her to tell me to have a nice day.

You? You don't deserve a nice day, amigo.

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>>23024263

I CAN'T HELP IT! THE PAIN OF KNOWING I WILL NEVER GET A WOLF GODDESS WAIFU HAS TURNED MY HEART AS BLACK AS A MOONLESS NIGHT.

I know only exist to spread my misery to others. If I cannot know happiness, then no one else will know happiness.

>>23023214

So you haven't really read the thread, much less anything we worked on did you?

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>>23024496
It is that attitude, ese, that will keep the wolf goddess away from you.

I'm tweaking the program a bit, and I have a question.

How do you think the population of a settlement will affect the quantity of items that will be in short supply? Short supply meaning that the nearest center of production is 100+ miles away.

Originally, I had the number of low-supply items be directly tied to the size of the settlement, but then I thought that perhaps larger settlements would actually have fewer items that aren't produced nearby, but now i'm not so sure...

Does anyone know anything about how production centers (beekeeperies for honey, carpenters for wood, blacksmiths for wrought items, and so on) would relate to the settlement size? Would it be completely arbitrary? I'm a little stumped.

>>23025316

There are actual calculations in Silk Road for just that. Read over it, it is pretty accurate.

>>23025435

Alright, I'll have a look over it

>>23025435

Alright, so as per the book, what i'm defining as "high supply items" (produced within 100 miles) would be what the book defines as "micro trade". Anything produced that close will be locally traded rather than needing to be bought solely through merchant imports.

As such, the low supply items in the program will be "macro trade" - items that are not produced within 100 miles, which you can't pick up from the general store a town over, but which can only be bought from merchants bringing items from other locales.

There's a lot of fluffy text, but I'm having trouble finding calculations on the subject. Will I just need to extrapolate from the fluff, or is there something I'm missing for determining production center distance from settlements?

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Any way of fixing this that slashed up text?

Other than that, the program is golden. With my minimal programming skills, I can change it much enough to simulate sci-fi trade spheres of planets and orbital stations. Good work bro.

>>23025594

check out the newest version, it should be fixed there.

you can get it from the wiki at 1d4chan.org/wiki/Magical_Economy

One day, when I'm rich as fuck, I'm going to hire some professional economists to make an effective RPG economic system that can handle not only fantasy settings but sci-fi as well. It'd be cool as fuck.

I'll let you know when that happens. It's not gonna be soon, but it shall be done.

>>23025606

such would be awesome. this system is far from perfect, but I think it has enough versimilutude and variety to seem like a realistic simulation to players who want to run a merchant empire, without being too complex for the DM to handle (although I have to admit, without the program it would still be a headache to work out the supply and demand for the 2000+ items on the goods list)

>>23025601
Now it forces pointless fullscreen on me, which hinders the usage of the program even more.

>>23025624

Sorry about that. For some reason, it's really hard to get items that are evenly spaced and auto-sized AND that resize with the program, so I made it fullscreen. It's a symptom of my lack of skill in programming, but I'll try and get it fixed.

>>23025646
Oh, that's okay. Mind if I let my friend tinker with it? He's rather good with C languages family, so he might come up with a solution.

>>23025681

Not at all. Like I said, I don't care what /tg/ does with it.

>>23025697
Always better to ask. "Polite society is armed society" or something along the lines. Anyway, my friend isn't around right now, so it might take some time.

>>23025754

I'm actually able to get it to resize properly. The problem is that TableLayoutPanel (the thing I'm using to make sure the text doesn't clip and is evenly spaced) puts big spaces between the checkboxes, so at anything smaller than fullscreen it becomes unusable. I can't figure out how to get the spaces smaller.

>>23025866
My friend says that he needs the whole project to mess with this shit up. At least that's what I've understood from what he said. Apparently source code is not enough. Got anything like that to share?

>>23026270

That's the whole thing; it's all console based, I didn't use visual studio or the design view, it's all in code. To make it run in visual studio, paste the whole thing into a new project and add references to System.Windows.Forms and System.Windows.Drawing

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>>23026366
>my friends open your code
>his reaction

The way you done it is problematic as all hell, because you done it all by hand. The problem is in the width, height and tops of the checkbox descriptions. The values are sometimes too high or too low. To change it all you would have to do it manually, with every line. And you've got over 2000 lines of code.

>>23025606

Paul Krugman (that dreamboat) actually wrote a paper in the 70s on how relativistic time dilation would effect shipping costs and interest rates.

>>23026441

yeah, I had to do it all by hand since I'm working on Linux. no Visual Studio for me. I've actually fixed the heights of the checkbox descriptions, figured out how to do it with a regular expression. Working on a solution now

>>23026636
this is what fucking #define is for

Look up a Legend of Five Rings. At least, it has more detailed economy than D&D does.

>>23026636
Well, my friend is Windows guy all the way. That would explain a thing or two. Hopefully that little rant from him proven helpful.

>>23026684
your friend is absolutely right. Using magic numbers is terrible practice, you should use a #define at the beginning of the program so you can change every instance of that value at once.

>>23026684

Yeah, I get what he means. If I could use the Design View I would've but I'm working only from a Linux box atm which makes everything more difficult. Maybe I'll redo it someday when I get my windows computer fixed. Anyway, I've fixed that problem now, just trying to get everything to scale properly outside of fullscreen. Dock and Anchor are bitches.

>>23026699

Yeah, yeah. It was just going to be a quick little thing, I didn't anticipate it being a problem but it was foolish to define them individually. It wasn't really a big deal though, took me about a minute to get rid of them with a regexp. The real problem I'm grappling with now is getting these two controls to resize relative to each other without overlapping.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20499743/SphereGen/SphereGen_Windows_v6.zip

that one should work at any size.

>>23027052
The headers are still a little bit off, but the checkboxes are good.

Also, it seems that there's no "generate" button.

>>23027122

It's at the bottom. I think it's a little bit difficult to see, I'll make it a bit taller

>>23027122

It's at the bottom, and weirdly small.

>>23027147

I'm working on it

>>23027137
Just as I was about to post I found it. Making it taller should do the trick. Or you could make a button under checkboxes to make it stand out more.

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>>22944074
Medieval economics?

You probably already know about the feudal system, landed knights, mercenary armies, vassalage, church tithes, and the like. But here's a bit that's less commonly discussed

Medieval cities were a development project extended from greek colonies and even earlier middle eastern societies. Basically, back in the day the world was not safe. Traveling by your lonesome could risk all sorts of pain. The safest you could get is behind some nice, sturdy walls. So wealthy men would invest in cities together then these cities would tax whoever passed through their bridge, wanted entry, or settled in the surrounding area. People would travel to get behind some walls or atleast within the shadow of a city.

Ideally investors would recoup their funds through the cities tolls and taxes over the years and be able to develop the city more (new rings of walls for the folks around the city, extending it, better walls, bigger walls, etc.) or invest in new cities. However, cities were relatively far from their lords according to the mobility of the time so often city-administrators would claim loyalty to a different lord (who promised to tax them less or something) or even declare independence.

This meant having to conquer the city you paid to build, possibly with your neighbors army against you, which was a pain in the ass. European communities were similar enough in power this led to a lot of combat and long periods of consolidation compared to Russia, where Moscow got the Khans permission to handle the collection of payment and squeezed their countrymen extra to develop its' own power until it could officially tell the Khans to fuck off.

Alright, both the wonky headers and the disappearing button should be fixed now. Same link

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20499743/SphereGen/SphereGen_Windows_v6.zip

>>23027184
You sir, appear to be a scholar. I would truly appriciate it if you elaborated on the subject.

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>>23027292
I'd like to file a bug report. I think you might've accidentally changed with on some descriptions.

>>23027318

wat ._.

gimme a sec

>>23027318

no seriously, wat

it works fine on mine and my friends' computers. give me a couple minutes to figure out the cause of this calamity