>>22116080
Do Paladins in your pretentious setting not get Detect Evil?

File: 1355920589630.png-(139 KB, 412x412, 1354492492028.png)

>but they can be fought off provided you're stronger than the agent. Basically turns power into an extended lifespan.
Surely those who fight off the Reaper agents are on the same level as liches and thus evil?

Grim reaper is an agent of the laws of nature. Ask the player if he thinks the laws of nature are evil.

>>22116080
First of all. You mentioned Rarity on /tg and no has has complained. Bravo. Also "Mah nigga".

Second of all, fuck that noise. Being a god doesn't make evil become not-evil. If Death kills fucktons of innocent people, then he's Evil.

"Oh but I'm just a concept, bloob bloob bloob"

NO. FUCK YOU DEATH. I'M A PALADIN, AND YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE.

WHATS THAT, IF EVEYRONE LIVED FOREVER THE COSMOS WOULD GET OVERPOPULATED? THEN GET RID OF SEX DUMBASS. OR MAKE THE UNIVERSE BIGGER.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand then I'd kill Death swiftly and painlessly and give him a proper funeral. Because fuck him and all the gods who think that just because their dick touched the Astral Sea when they were born that means they get to avoid the holy hammer of JUSTICE.

That's what you get for using alignment, faggot.

Makes sense to me, Death come for the Good and Evil alike.

Personally, my problem with throwing gods in is players not getting the hint that YOU PROBABLY SHOULD NOT FIGHT THEM DIRECTLY. You're like, level 8. They govern the forces through which you exist.

>>22116165
>>22116204
I'd say yes, they are evil, fuck you.

Then I'd Smite death for being Evil. Then I'd smite the laws of nature, and build better ones. Then I'd kill all the gods who were in favor of keeping this superstructure in place, because they're clearly Evil too.

I'd FOR GREAT JUSTICE Pelor himself if I had too.

Because if gods think they're above the Law, you PULL THEIR ASSES BACK DOWN UNDER IT.

Ehhhhhh. This fighting off death business feels a bit too literal for me. Not fond of how you do it, or how I recall it working in Deadlands.

Just... why turn the reaper or its agents into killers? That's why the (dumb) player's all confused. Go back to having them collect the dead, and leave the deed to disease, bloodloss, and starvation.

>>22116220
>>22116204
However, then you would be guilty of exactly what you accused death of being guilty of, and therefor evil yourselves.

>>22116238
No I wouldn't. I'd be killing the evil people, not the good people. And the good deities would get to live. What kind of Good being could be in favor of letting Death keep up this genocide, when obviously superior options exist?

>>22116238
And then some upstart paladin comes to kill you, and the cycle continues on forever-more.

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>>22116080
>thinking DEATH kills people

>>22116156
>Death is true neutral
>Pretentious

Somebody likes their new word.

>>22116253
Except they're only evil because you claim they're evil. They only kill people who are injured to a severe point, the point in which a being should die on a decided level. They do not only kill good people, or only kill bad people, they only kill those who fit the qualifications. Completely fairly. This is neutral. Killing the neutral makes you no less evil than killing the good.

This reminds me of that Dante's Inferno game, the first boss is Death itself and you steal his huge scythe. Its a pretty big jump actually, you go from massacring barely armed Saracen prisoners to killing DEATH.

>>22116286
This is a world where magic can heal anything, even death. Death could just as easily be replaced by LIFEFAIRY THE MAGICAL FAGGOT who goes to all dying people and heals them using potions from his bag that is completely empty of dead people.

Also
>Paladins calling gods out on bullshit
This is my fetish.

>>22116276
Actually it was the concept of literally fighting off death I found pretentious.
Death being true neutral is fine and dandy.

Still, OP's Paladin Player should have been able to detect if the being in question was evil.

>>22116348
I would rape Death with a spoon. For justice.
>This is all how I epic level paladin.

>>22116253
>>22116220
Then you are a raging faggot for thinking that you decides how the world works instead of the GM.
>1/10
>Would not play with.

>>22116381
>Because GM's don't run games for their PLAYERS, they run them for an EGO TRIP
=D

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>>22116257
If you should be dead, yes.

>>22116381
Oh no, the GM controls the world. I'm just saying how I'd probably react. Well that, and Alignment wise, he probably should be Evil.

Lastly, I'm posting with a name. And not only that, but a shitty latiny name too. It wasn't obvious that like half of my words were actually from the perceptive of an angry paladin wondering why Smite wasn't working on Death?

File: 1355922218782.jpg-(30 KB, 305x400, Deathwithcat.jpg)

There is no justice. There's just me.

This guy seems TN, tending closer to CG than any other alignment.

>>22116405
The GM is for all intents and purposes the world as players you only travel there.

File: 1355922305431.jpg-(32 KB, 480x671, death.jpg)

"-I'm not blessed, or merciful. I'm just me. I've got a job to do, and I do it. Listen: even as we're talking, I'm there for old and young, innocent and guilty, those who die together and those who die alone. I'm in cars and boats and planes; in hospitals and forests and abbatoirs. For some folks death is a release, and for others death is an abomination, a terrible thing. But in the end, I'm there for all of them."

I'd say she's TN again, but tending more to LN.

So yeah, death can be NICE.

>>22116422
Well you can keep saying that there is no justice, as I place my Hammer somewhere firmly between your lungs and colon. Or bones. Or whatever.

The point is I'm killing you for being immoral, so Deal with It.

>>22116417
I had no idea. Never play games with raging paladins.

>>22116438
Death is always an abomination. Its a scar on the face of Creation. And one that is shall be cleansed of. By force, if necessary.

File: 1355922516785.jpg-(147 KB, 500x755, endless-family.jpg)

Do these people not understand the concept of a psychopomp?

>>22116452
What if death not doing his work has terrible longterm effects on the world?

>>22116422
i think he is NG, because he brings the souls to there place where they belong and stopps that everything that "die" come back as zombie or ghost

>>22116488
Since when do Paladins do thins for good consequences? We kill evildoers, and we don't do evil ourselves.

Being a paladin means that if you have the choice between doing evil, and anything else, you pick the latter.

So if the choice is "Murder Death" or "Let Death keep doing evil", I choose murder death. And then I deal with what may come.

I'm sure the party WIZARD will think of something.

>>22116465
*snerk*
what are you gonna do? Kill death?
You...don't see the problem with that?
No?
Oh well, GET IN THE FUCKING BAG THEN!

>>22116452

Dude. DEATH is probably the nicest dude in the Disc. This includes you. He's way nicer than you, and has probably saved the world more times than you have. Seriously, if *he*'s evil you might as well start hammering every single person you pass around the street, because we're worse than he is!

...okay, yes, I realized the wrongness of using that turn of phrase in front of a raging paladin the moment it came out. *Closes eyes to await inevitable hammering*

>>22116489
He also saved Christmas from being assassinated.

>>22116512
I WILL RAPE YOUR BAG FROM THE INSIDE OUT. THEN I WILL STUFF YOU IN THE BAG, AND PUT THAT BAG IN MY CLOSET, AND HAVE VIOLENT PALADIN SEX WITH IT.

Deal with it.

>>22116220

Then tell me this, Brave Paladin: is it evil to take the suffering of the grandmother, crippled from age and rendered mad from dementia, away from her pain? Is it evil to drag the selfish and wicked thief king to the bowels of hell, kicking and screaming all the way? Is it wrong to treat all beings, no matter alignment, race, color, creed, gender, belief or action, in the same manner? Even the Gods fall to Death, even the boundaries of Good and Evil fall to entropy, even the world, the universe, the plane and the existence, will all take on the same result.

Not suffer. Death is not to suffer. Death is merely the end of all stories. It is no more evil than the last page in a book. That's why Death is not evil nor good; there is no agenda, only the expectation.

>>22116513
Hey, I've heard that there's a ginger captain in the watch who's pretty decent. other than that, though...

>>22116513
This is D&D death, not Discworld Death.

Also, doesn't matter if your the nicest guy in the world, if your doin serious Evil, I have to kill you. Nothing personal, its just violent holy-tastic justice.

Also, your daily reminder that Good is not Nice.

>>22116528
And then a rock fell on the noble paladin for his hubris vexed the gods.

>>22116434
>The GM is for all intents and purposes the world
Egotistical much?
No dude, the GM is a just a dude running a game for the enjoyment of his players.

>>22116555
You're killing people?
so...you ARE death?
Then you must kill yourself

>>22116537
Fuck you and your attempts at philosophizing your way out of a situation.

You heal the grandma, kill the tyrant, then you kill all the other evil people till theres no one left who's doing Evil. You turn the whole cosmos into Mount Celestia, and you do it with a smile that says "I FUCKING LOVE MY JOB" as you mow down the hordes of Asmodeus, and rape death with a Hammer.

And if any of you idiots and your fancy 18 INT want to talk shit, I"ll be outside, giving Orcus the bird.

>>22116438

I, personally, like a facet of Death to fit with every alignment grid, and the Death the character sees is the Death most suiting to their actions in life and their alignment. So someone who was really awesome at being a good person or being a complete manipulative and evil bastard gets LG or LE respectively, and Lord-Father Priestius Benedictus gets a evil Kender representation of Death or something.

>>22116080
I do the same thing, on the off-chance a character happens to see "their time" come around. If they die, they get peace, but if they survive they never know when the next thresher is going to come for them, so it's a combination of the stress of an imminent death and paranoia because you know you could be attacked at any moment, fueled by fear of one inevitable rite of passage (which is what the threshers call it, on the occasion that they speak at all). I was really surprised at how effective the "death as accountant" kind of thing is at increasing tension the first time I used it. I suspect it's kind of like the Faustus thing, the concept of being able to sort of cut a deal with a primal concept for something unattainable (like immortality or ultimate knowledge), but knowing the terms will never be in your favor.

>>22116253
>nobody Good dies until murdered, maybe not even then
>world has a finite amount of space
So how's that arithmetic working out for you in Bizarro world?

>>22116572
Thanks man, thats the perfect Bond One-Liner for when I kill death. He'll be all like "You can't kill me, I"M DEATH!!!!!!!!"

And I'll be all like

"NOW I AM BECOME DEATH, THE DESTROY OF WORLDS"

And I'll kill him. WIth a a Hammer.

>>22116563
Then my ghost kills them too. We Kratos-Paladin here now.

>>22116555

No, actually, the one you were replying to was a picture of Discworld DEATH and a quote from him. I'm pretty sure the post you replied there was talking of the Disc DEATH.

Also, dude, you're the kind of person that makes real Good people ashamed that you even stain the name of their alignment by speaking it with your lips, much less say you're one of them. I honestly expect it will not be liches or reapers that will kill you, but actual Paladins. You're like *this* close to going off the slope Miko-style, brother.

>>22116564
The GM keeps track of everything that goes on in the world and decides the fate of it. The world being fun or not depends on the players and GM.

>>22116587
Make world bigger, or destroy reproduction. Problem solved.

>>22116211

Wisdom.

>>22116578
>And if any of you idiots and your fancy 18 INT want to talk shit, I"ll be outside, giving Orcus the bird.
Oh god my sides

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>>22116511
>"Murder Death"

You keep running under this assumption that Death is a living being. Death is not 'alive' in the sense that we are.

It is a manifestation of a universal law that can not be undone or fought against. Even if you were to somehow destroy it's physical form it would reform itself and continue it's work.

Oh, also while you are 'killing' Death it is continuing to do it's work because it is a multi-faceted entity that exists in multiple dimensions and multiples planes of existence all at once.

>>22116555
He is like Santa.
If you kill him, you become Death.
ENJOY BEING ENTROPY.

>>22116605
You sound entitled.

>>22116595
>You're like *this* close to going off the slope Miko-style, brother.

I knew the sanctimonious unwillingness to accept anything that doesn't agree with his existant jumped-to conclusions reminded me of someone!

>>22116578

I am not philosophizing my way out of the situation, I am merely describing what I do.

Tell me, Brave Paladin, you're dear old Grandmother... Would it be better for her to have lived after the ravages of the plague? To be rendered blind from burst vessels, mute from her tongue rotting away, crippled and in agony from the blood pustules? I am not Disease nor Suffering, I am not Pain nor Hate. I am merely Death. I take everything from this world and shepherd them to the next. There's no malice in what I do, merely the obligation of what to expect.

And if you feel Obligations are something to be ignored, especially in exchange for Suffering, perhaps you should look at disposing of your mantle, PALADIN.

>>22116605
Making the world bigger would wreak havoc on natural systems. Eliminating reproduction would destroy a source of tremendous happiness for a huge amount of people. Try again.

>>22116615

I wonder if you can murder other things too. Everyone's always against defeating and killing or stopping Death (or Existence, natch), but what about someone who wants to defeat Language. Or Awareness, that seems like a nice villain, someone who wants to kill consciousness, in some insane Paladin bid to end crime and suffering. It's almost like Evangelion, but actually a little bit worse.

>>22116631
That guy?

>>22116636
Haha. You think sex is necessary for happiness. Try again.
>>22116632
My one regret, is that chainswords haven't been invented yet, because that means that sound of your bones being ripped to bits won't sound nearly as entertaining.

>As a side note, I don't really Lawful Good like this when I play. Normally I act more like Jean-Luc Picard then this fictional construct here. Although I do add about 10% of this guy to the characters, for flavor. Good guys are cooler when they're willing to do anything to be Good. But this is so far over the edge he may as well be a paladin of Zarus.

>>22116615
>Killing death
Would that be like smooshing gravity?

>>22116663
Yes.

>>22116663
That would also be a funny character concept. An anarachist cleric who wants to kill gravity because its always keeping him down.

Are we talking about the real world or D&D? Because in D&D there *is* enough room for everyone. There are planes of infinite size and magical food creation sufficient to feed everyone. This whole overpopulation argument doesn't work.

In addition, even if he was killing people due to overpopulation, he'd still be evil according to the D&D alignment system (not the same thing as morally evil to a real world philosophy) since he deliberately, voluntarily, and consistently murdered innocent people.

>>22116670

Well what the fuck has gravity ever done for anyone? It's the Man in figurative form, keeping the brothers and the sisters down! I say we get rid of the Gravity mojo, and we can float wherever the fuck we want!

>>22116684
I'm wish I could high five you through the internet.

...Oi OP. Get the player to kill death. Now everyone is immortal. He is officially hated by the entire universe.

That's how one should deal with idiots like these.

>>22116702
You haven't heard a word I've said have you.

I've be glad that happened.

>My PC is now Sissyphus, the Paladin.

>>22116689
Enjoy the lack of air.

>>22116684

But he's also mercy-killing people and killing very evil people. Also, killing a shitton of animals of vague neutrality.

I'd say he'd count for an alignment as much as swords in general do. Not a particular sword, all swords.

That being said, isn't there still a negative blowback due to things like the negative energy planes? I'd imagine constantly forcing an infinite amount of food and an infinite amount of creation is going to lead to entropy blowing back in some horrifying and terrible manner, like now everyone's the tumor-ball.

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>>22116692
Thanks.

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>>22116578
>Death is a stain on the face of creation
You and me, buddy.

>>22116080
Are the proxies undead? He has a fair complaint if they are, especially if any undead met so far are evil or can be smited.

I do agree that the concept of death could easily be neutral, good or evil. It's a matter of framing what death is and how it works in your campaign. Your player sounds like an idiot, though.

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>>22116656
Evil namefag, begone!

>>22116724
I suddenly want to multiclass Paladin and Necromancer, using this as my justification.

I'm trying to destroy Death metaphysically, and also revive all dead people, one by one, piecemeal.

>>22116715
There is a plane of infinite magical healing, and you talk about mercy killing?

Also, he could kill just Evil.

So uh, maybe the question isn't as obvious as *I* thought it was, but why is it necessarily evil that people die? Does that mean it's evil for somebody to have not been born yet? The results is the same, a couple who want to have children feel that something important is missing, so they have a kid. The widow after her husband's death feels empty. The child who never knew his parents feels cheated.

Nature is defined by limits, which means nature is defined by scarcity and death. That makes nature evil? Being realistic and accepting the banal nature of life and accepting that in the end it's just so much noise for a short time like a concussive grenade is evil, and being satisfied with that is what, cowardice? Not wasting time pursuing the unachievable goals of a child is I suppose a lack of imagination?

>>22116733

And if you succeed? Honestly. You are only making them suffer.

>Whining like a certain white-and-purple equine
Why does everyone hate Rarity? ;_;

>>22116733
This is impossible to do in dnd, considering everybody who has ever died is going to become an outsider and at that point they are no longer themselves.

>>22116715
Also, you could balance the positive and negative planes in one world, in a way that didn't have pain or death.

I mean hell, Mount Celestia isn't pure Positive energy.

>>22116684
Maybe life is just suppose to be unfair for mortals?

>>22116715
Sometime killing people who deserve to die and sometimes killing innocents who do not does not balance out to make you neutral. It makes you a very strange evil person.

>I'd say he'd count for an alignment as much as swords in general do. Not a particular sword, all swords.
Well swords are neutral because they don't make choices. They're a robot like a golem or something. If death is a robot with no free will who is forced to murder people, then he would also be neutral. If he instead chooses to do his profession, he would be evil.

I think the assumption made so far in this thread is that death chooses to do what he does, since people were defending it as being non-evil. Because if he was a robot, the morality of his actions would be irrelevant.

>>22116751
This.

It depends on the campaign, but D&D has an afterlife. Several of them. You can visit them. Death isn't an end, but the beginning of a new phase. What this phase is depends on what you've done in your mortal life.

>>22116748
Because purplesmart is best pony. Also this is /tg, lets keep it down or go back to /mlp before we piss them off.

This is their (the fa/tg/uys) house, and we're guests. Lets not shit up the place.

>>22116711

Hell, you don't even need that.

Miracle Day, motherfuckers. Just because instantaneous healing and infinite food magic exists doesn't mean it will happened right away, nor that you'll be able to have enough mages for what's needed, and certainly not in the initial stages. Let's see how well your Paladin reacts when he walks into a village that was ransacked in an Orc raid, where all of the villagers were burned alive in the local Temple to Pelor, and are STILL ALIVE five days later. See how well he does when he runs out of lay on hands for the day and still doesn't have enough power to cure the grievious wounding on a moaning and burnt peasant, while the party Healbot runs out of all of their spells and can only manage bringing one or two back to anywhere resembling a person and not a charcoal briquet.

>>22116748
Because rhe is a filthy tripfag.

>>22116745
Yes. If the nature of the world is pain and scarcity and death, then the world would be evil, and in need of cleansing and restructuring.

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>>22116656
>sex is necessary for happiness
No, raising children is a source of tremendous happiness for a lot of people. Sex is still perfectly possible without reproduction.

Besides, if you deny anybody else the right to ever live again, isn't that like, just as bad as genocide, except technically worse because it's a theoretically infinite number of "lives" you're cutting short?

>>22116768
But I'm not from /mlp/! I've spelt less time there total than I have on /tg/ in a single day!

File: 1355924469522.jpg-(70 KB, 599x521, 1355848939819.jpg)

Why deny people death.

>>22116781
No. Thats troll-class logic. Once we have a set number of perfect beings, making more is just wasteful, and makes us run the risk of them choosing to be evildoers.

>>22116790
Oh. Whatever. I spend about 60% here, 40% there. I really don't frequent any other boards.

File: 1355924587340.jpg-(93 KB, 698x880, GET IN THE BAG.jpg)

TELL HIM THE TRUTH OF DEATHS ALIGNMENT IS A FEW SECONDS AWAY.

...IN THE FUCKING BAG

>>22116675
>because its always keeping him down.

Oh you.

>>22116777
So if the nature of the universe can be flawed, how do you know your ideas of good and evil are not similarly flawed? If the nature of Good is to destroy and rebuild in its own image, consequences be damned, what is the difference between Good and Evil?

>>22116791
Because justice.

>>22116797
please go back to /mlp/ you're not contributing anything anyone wants to this board.

>>22116791

And why deny Death people?

Maybe he's just gathering everyone for an everlasting party at his house, and it's infinite fun and food for everyone. If you're good in life, you get the best beer, the fattest blunts and first dibs at any party games or song choices in whatever room you go to. If you're evil, you're stuck with an infinite hangover outside, and just have nothing to do but hork up your guts and be sore.

There's no way for you to know unless you GET IN THE FUCKING BAG

>>22116811
Because I define Good based on three very simple values. Justice. Honor. And hitting people who are injust or dishonorable.

So I do those three things, then I'm Good. Simple as that.

>>22116801
I spend basically all my time here, and maybe take one look at another board every week or so.

>>22116812
No.
This is not an adequate answer, for it doesn't mean a single thing in this discussion.
Specify your brand of moral right, for they are many.

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>>22116821
Because.

>>22116769
You're using a false dichotomy because it's not merely a choice between allowing death to go as it currently is or preventing all death all together. Death could apply his trade in a good manner.

Let's assume that you're correct and that things are better with death than with no death. That doesn't make death non evil. Death applies his "death" non voluntarily. Those peasants who want to die because they can't be kept alive aren't the only ones who are killed. It also kills people who could be saved and people who do not want to die.

It's like a mass murderer who kills 10 orphans but saves 11. It's a net positive but killing orphans at all means he's still evil.

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>>22116777
>>22116768
>>22116754
>>22116743
>>22116708


Never have I seen a more idiotic person then you. I honestly don't get why you think Immortality is a GOOD thing. Especially in a entire fucking uni/multi/omniverse.

Do you even know how many angsty immortals there are in fiction? Not only that that angst is something that actually makes sense most of the time.

>>22116764
What if he did it because it was necessary? What if he was in reality the ultimate martyr? The last being of a failed universe where death didn't exist. Though it pains him to do so, every life taken, every family ruined is for the good of all creation. He doesn't do it because he wants to, or because he can, but because he must.

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>>22116825
>justice
>honor
>denying death to those who yearn for it
>I'm good because I said so
>nature is evil because I said so
>thisishowobjectivemoralswork.wav
I was thinking you might have actually been going somewhere interesting or at least entertaining, but nope.

>>22116835
>>22116813
Attention guys who just got here.
>>22116417
I don't really believe this crap.

I'm just acting like an angry paladin because I thought it was a funny response to the OP. Also I'm liking the questions and character concepts that are being asked, so I kept it up.

The only parts of this that were me was me saying I frequent /mlp, I really do think it'd be better if we had a world full of moral people, even if it meant sex had to go, and lastly, I do view death as a flaw of reality, not a feature.

Pretty much every other statement I made about ethics or anything else, was just me roleplaying angry paladin because I thought it was funny, and I thought I was getting cool responses.
>Like that guy who asked if gravity could be killed.

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>>22116851
>Do you even know how many angsty immortals there are in fiction?
Yes and all of them are idiots. Instead of expanding your conscience or serving the people eternally, they just whine and cry.

File: 1355925030843.png-(110 KB, 275x207, Yes.png)

I don't understand how dying is supposed to be an evil act. We all entered into a clearly legally binding contract upon our conception. It was clearly laid out that in order to live we would have to die.

Good sir Paladin, you are being summoned to appear before the High Court of Pan-Dimensional Justice for breach of contract.

In short, you have been served.

>>22116843

Look, the question is "Should Death only select certain reasons to kill", the question has always been "Is Death evil because he kills", and the question pertaining to the Miracle Day situation was a hypothesis of what happens when Death ceases to exist. I suppose if you can reason with Death to only take people who request to die or people who are on the south end of the alignment chart, then your comment would be suiting, but killing or ending death means that there's no more death. No more death means people who are in situations that they should be dead, like burnt to smolders or crushed into a paste, or stabbed thirty times with shivs and forty with Orc-cocks are going to still be alive and feeling that. If you want to kill Death, then brother, you've got to accept the horrible, horrible consequences.

>>22116874

It's the internet. Not everyone will think you are trolling. Heck you could have been serious and just now realized what you were doing, only to start backpedaling like a bitch.

>>22116874
moral immortals* left out info.

Sex isn't immoral. That was a big data leav out.

Moral immortals* major typo.

>>22116874
>That was me
>I was hoping we would be able to talk about cool little shit like that
>Everyone shit it up because no fun allowed
> u r a kool dood

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>>22116874
Well I hope you had fun.

But no.
We like discussing ethics here, among other things.

>>22116899

Lord-Father, you seem to be having a little trouble. Would you like to take a seat, let me bring you a glass of lemonade, and give you a chance to let you stop being a bit verklempt?

>>22116885
Ok, me being serious this time again. I like you. Its always a breathe of fresh air to see a happy immortal. Not all immortals are angsty highlanders. Some are Tom from the Hobbit, who sees everything over and over again and never finds it tiring.

"Eldest is what I am. I remember first raindrop and first acorn"

>>22116733

This a 1000 times this!!!

What would a Paladin-Necro look like stat and abilitywise?

>>22116885

Tell me. Do you like watching your loved ones die?

Though It wouldn't be the case if EVERYONE is immortal there is still the problem of not eliminating pain and suffering.

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What a dreadful way for a thread to go.

>>22116080
Suggestion: Make Death seem less evil? Like, he doesn't actually kill people. When the body dies, the soul is trapped inside, or escapes and wanders off to become a ghost, and it's death's job to extract the souls, and bring them to the "other side", or whatever. And capture the ghosts. "Bust" them, if you will.

>>22116857
Well, some sort of secret information could justify his actions. A paladin killing an orphan is normally evil but if killing that orphan is the only way to stop some greater tragedy then it would not be. But that secret information would have to explain why the people who die are chosen arbitrarily and involuntarily. Justifying death in some situations seems like it could be done but its hard to imagine a reason that it has to also be a surprise and so randomly chosen.

>>22116891
>Look, the question is "Should Death only select certain reasons to kill", the question has always been "Is Death evil because he kills"

Well if you look at the OP, I don't think it's either. I think the question is "Is death evil?". Which is different than "Are we worse off without death" or "should we kill Death". These can all have different answers.

I really like the analogy of a mass murderer who kills 10 orphans but saves 11 per year. Yes he's evil but no we should not kill him and yes we are worse off without him entirely. But things would be best (and he would be good instead of evil) if he only saved orphans and didn't kill any.

>>22116939
I don't know, its going pretty well. So far we've gotten Clerics who hate gravity, self-consistent Paladin/Necros, and a discussion on immortality going.

Plus a back and forth between Death and his bag and the world's angriest paladin.

I'd say things are going well, all things considered.

Honestly. I like to think of death this way: He/She doesn't have a choice in the matter.

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>>22116928
No I don't. That's why my loved ones don't die. Unless, they choose to, which does happen, but not often.

>>22116946
Death doesn't appear to be evil in the first place to those that have a sense of morality that has matured past that of a nine-year-old.

The justification for Death is the fact that you are alive.

>>22116978

They will want to eventually if you are keeping their mind and soul in that rotting body of theirs.

>>22116978
Immortals are always told "How can you be immoral while people you love are dying?"

I retort quite plainly. How can you be fed, while others starve? How can you be alive while others are dead. How can you be well while others are ill.

Ultimately, refusing immortality just because "you'll have to watch your loved ones die" is foolish. You'll already have to watch them die if you live long enough. At least this way no one will ever have to watch you die.

And who knows? Maybe you'll be able to cure death entirely, so no one has to watch anyone die, ever again.

>>22116946
Death doesn't kill people in many mythologies. He's just a psychopomp, and often is closely tied to any spirits or gods associated with dreaming.

All Death does is pick you up once you've died and shows you to your destination. He does not judge, kill, or anything like that. He just escorts you along your way. He could come in the form of a flock of ravens, a kindly old man, a robed skeleton with a scythe, a carriage waiting for a passenger, a boatman and so on. He isn't evil, he simply is.

>>22116952

I think we've had at least four deaths at this point. Maybe all of the deaths are around because the Paladin has died and they're trying to calm him down before they tell him the truth, just so he won't keep chasing after the Psychopomps with a sword and scaring other people in the afterlife while in mid-introduction to being dead.

"You have lived a long and fruitful life Matilda, and raised a beautiful daughter. It's a shame we took you so young, but the end of the line comes for all and everyone. I make no distinctions of when and how the line is cut, I am merely here to-"
"CEASE AND DESIST, FOUL EVILDOER! YOU'VE SUCCEEDED THRICE TODAY, AND I WON'T LET YOU CONTINUE ONWORDS!" *stab* "RUN MATILDA, I HAVE HIM ON THE ROPES! FOR GLORY, MY DEAR, FOR GLORY!"
"Oh, goddamnit, stop following me!"

>>22116981
I could do without the insults. Death seems evil to OP's players, but he's supposed to be neutral, and that's confusing or frustrating the players. A way to solve that would be to make Death seem less evil in the eyes of the players, rather than starting a philosophical debate to convince them he's not evil.

>>22117022
I suddenly want this. An ghostly paladin who is always chasing Death, trying to kill him. Thats why Death doesn't stay and chat anymore, or let people gamble for their lives. He has to grab the soul and run before Sir Glorious Everfaggot finds him again.

>>22116348
Oh wow. You really have no idea what pretentious means.

Using pretentious incorrectly in smugness. Hm. I wonder what they call that?

Apart from hypocrisy, of course.

>>22116946
So death just gathers the newly dead and gives them guidance on how to proceed? And the last rites offer the soul insight as to what death will do for them, and to not be afraid of the new and strange journey ahead of them. When they find their way to the threshold between the living world and the next, Charon ferries them safely across, and that is when the soul can be at peace.

"Demonic possessions" and hauntings are actually just the frightened, confused, or pernicious spirits of the dead trying to interact with the living world before death greets them, or death scared them off.

>>22116997
But they don't have rotting bodies! I'm a wizard. I can make their bodies regenerate.

>>22117029
So the DM should coddle his players and refrain from attempting to engage them in open debate? Rather than educate them and expand their minds to see the world in a new light he should just placate them with gentle words?

That would be the ultimate injustice.

>>22117059
How about Death just be Evil? Like he's a total ass, but he know he's a total ass, so he doesn't give a shit.

I've always liked Get in the Bag death.

>>22117029

At the same time, it does make the game either all about trying to resolve the issues with death suddenly only taking people on a selective schedule like only the evil ones or only the suicidal and sufficiently suffering and old and the ramifications of that (oh hey, looks like the king who was running the city and half of the royal family and advisors were technically evil, now there's a revolution), or the game ceases to feel like anything but a Disneyfied fairy tale (suddenly, all of the good people lived forever, and all of the evil people still died).

I'd think you'd be better off accepting death as a facet of the game world, as well as the real world. Although a campaign where the party ended up having to negotiate with Death and go through scenarios like Miracle Day or Evil People Dead Only, as they try to find a happy medium in the living/dead scale would be an interesting game.

>>22117069
Dude, I'm someone who argues on the internet, and even I know that trying to debate philosophy mid-game will probably end in shit.

>Feel free to debate it afterwards, but don't pause the game to argue alignment or ethics, I mean really!

>>22117089
Wait, it's not a common thing for players to debate their character's ethics and motivations in the middle of a session?

>>22117078
Get in the Bad death isn't necessarily evil. He's a complete dick, but that doesn't mean he's evil. He performs a necessary function, brings people to their afterlife, doesn't kill them just collects them and mocks them, happens to use a bag as his collection device, and has stopped trying to be civil about the whole affair.

>>22117011
Those conceptions of death have always seemed benevolent to me, honestly. Charon's a greedy fuck, but the guy who treats the rich, poor, brilliant, stupid, beautiful, and ugly all with the same dignity is a far better person than anybody I know (myself included).

>>22117097
No its common. In fact I do it often enough. I mean its no fun to pause the game and DEBATE it for awhile.

I'm all for the LE and LG being in conflict, or the players debating the nature of CN, but not if it holds up the game.

>>22117041

I like the idea of occasionally the Paladin "succeeding" and while he doesn't 'save' the person or bring them back, he takes them along with him to join him on his glorious quest to kill Death, which should (in his feverish and righteous mind) undo death and bring everyone back to life.

Just for the thought of a very freaked out Death running, with a recently deceased six year old under one are, her just as recently dead grandmother under the other, bag clenched in one hand, trying to explain what the afterlife is like, and being chased by a very angry and somewhat confused mob of "paladins" and "squires".

>>22117069
It's a freaking board-game, not debate club.

>>22116080
PALADIN

The old man stood at the window, nursing a wound that would not close, it had been months now, the bloody rags, the looks from his wife, the hushed whispers in the court and nearby town.

PALADIN, ELYSIUM CALLS FOR YOU, IT IS NOT BEST FOR YOUR IMAGE TO DENY SUCH A SUMMONS LEST THE GATE THEIR BE FOREVER CLOSED TO YOU

And yet his party soldiered on towards the keep of Lord Everes, whose terrible power had lasted long past a mortal lifespan and continued still, "Can it not wait a little while longer, another Iconoclast yet waits over the mountains, I must continue my journey but I cannot while you send your men after me"

IT IS YOUR TIME

"Don't you get it, I don't care for what punishment awaits me, that monster is still out there, is he not higher on your list of reclamations than I?!"

PALADIN, DEATH COMES FOR ALL IN DUE TIME, HE WILL BE DRAWN TO HIS REWARD OR PUNISHMENT

"But We can beat him! We are so close and I was taken so suddenly, I worry for their sake and the sake of the land, can you not grant me the time to assure my people's convictions?"

>>22117124
Death's agent paused a moment, it knew it could not win in a struggle at this moment, more divine power would be wasted and that waste could not be afforded if Everes was to be taken to his rightful place, kicking and screaming. The Avatar relayed the request and Death did indeed consider it, here was a soul of divine fury that did not wish to rest, indeed it would most likely carry on well after this great evil in the mortal realm had been laid to rest and perhaps even longer than most did last in service.

PALADIN, YOU HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE

"I'll not go peacefully even if it means my damnation or worse!"

THAT IS NOT THE CHOICE WE ARE PRESENTING YOU

The paladin's features cleared of rage and frustration and he folded his arms, still wincing at the seeping wound, "I'm listening"

YOU WISH TO SEE EVERES TAKEN INTO MY CUSTODY?

"Of course, that has been my life's work these past three score years"

THEN SERVE AS MY AGENT UNTIL THE END OF TIME, FORSAKE YOUR IMMORTAL REWARDS TO BRING THE RECALCITRANT DEAD TO THEIR JUST REWARDS BOTH GOOD AND ILL, SHOULD YOU WAVER EVEN ONCE YOU WILL SUFFER MY WRATH FOR IT BE WELL DESERVED

He was stunned, there was an old folk tale, now that he remembered, of a knight questing on after death, bringing justice to the realms of ghosts and specters, but it was just that... or he had thought so until now.

>>22117119
Oh my gods. Its like the Wild Hunt meets Don Quixote.

Don Quixote leading an army of paladins through the skies, eternally chasing an ever more harried and rushed Death through the world. Eventually the ranks of Good will be so great Death won't be able to escape, and then SOMETHING (Good or Evil) will happen.

>>22117115
I don't understand why would character growth hold up a game.

>>22117138
I'm not talking about IC talk.

I'm saying don't let a game be bogged down by out of character debate.

>>22117159
Oh! I'm not talking about having an out-of-character debate about morals and ethics.

I'm talking about having an in-character debate about morals and ethics.

"With strange aeons, even death may die"
If you want to be a massive dick, you could let them kill death, and then show them the ramifications of it. Make everyone who ever died come back. Overcrowding, starvation, people suffocating in their coffins, but never dying. Ancient evil beings rise again, and enslave the world. All sorts of bad shit.

>>22117167
Oh then hell yeah, IC debate about morals/etc is half the fun of roleplaying.

>>22117099
Like House.

>>22117188
That is so brilliant a comparison it hurts.

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>>22116579
>evil Kender representation of Death
Mein Gott.

>>22117175
So then the DM should introduce the players to an NPC that takes a particular stance on the whole 'killing Death' idea and utilize that in an attempt to get them to come around to a more rational viewpoint!

>>22117193
*Mein Pelor

>>22117137

I might include this in my setting now. There's at least one aspect of Death that's being chased down permanently by Unrestful Souls, who have taken it upon themselves to defeat Death and allow people to come back to the living even if no one is around to resurrect them or fails the resurrection. Maybe even offer a potential quest or plot hook, when a PC dies, to attempt to quell this mob and help them pass on instead of killing Death. Or join the mob and kill Death. Or kill the mob. It's a murderhobo, chances are it will end in a murder.

>>22117132
MAKE YOUR CHOICE PALADIN, FOR I GROW WEARY OF THIS GAME, SMITE THOSE WHO FORSAKE MY CALL OR BE SMOTE IN TURN

"I accept"

AHAHAHAHA, VERY WELL, DELIVER TO ME THE TATTERS OF EVERES' SOUL, ITS OWNERS HAVE BEEN CLAMORING ABOUT IT FOR CENTURIES; GO NOW PALADIN GRAVE

And on that day, there were whispers of ghostly flickers of the Good Lord Gionicio Gave's ghost when his body finally succumbed to its wounds, and his family line became a watchword for duty beyond the call unto one's very destruction. But among the whispers between bards and thieves and scholarly mages, Grave become the word for the fallen who dared not lay down, of men who would challenge god sooner than return to dust. And among the planes of the divine and immortal, Grave was not just a watchword, Grave was the enforcer of Death and leader of the order of Undertakers, grim police whose duty bent to keeping the heavens orderly and souls in their places, men elevated beyond the pale of mortals and who finally entrenched the powers of Death into the Cosmos.

>>22117195
Well I don't know what you mean by "rational viewpoint" here, but the problem was that, barring metaphysical bullcrap justification, the Paladin was right. Or at least, his argument wasn't completely without merit.

So making Smite fail was kind of dumb. It defeated any possible debate before it could begin.

The players can't talk about whether Death is evil, because the Paladin's magic radar already said he's True Neutral. Even though it made no sense.

>>22117078
Death can't be evil because dying isn't evil. Death could be a dick who doesn't give a shit, but that conception just doesn't fit my own personal views about what constitutes the end of life so it doesn't jive with me.

OH SO YOU'RE SAYING I'M EVIL CAUSE I KILL PEOPLE?

WELL I HOPE YOU'RE AN ADVOCATE OF OVER-POPULATION AND WATCHING THIS WHOLE PLANET SLOWLY CRAWLING UP OVER ITSELF WITH YOUR LIVING FLESH, BEING UNABLE TO DIE BUT SUFFERING A MILLION DEATHS EVERY NANOSECOND BECAUSE SOME DICKSLEEVE THOUGHT IT'D BE A GOOD IDEA TO REMOVE THE CYCLE OF DEATH AND REBIRTH.

GUESS WHO THAT DICKSLEEVE IS. NOW IN THE BAG!

>>22117201
And the leader has to be ridiculously grossly incandescent. Make the leader paladin Don Quixote fused with Brolaire.

Idea: if death is a door, then if death dies, nobody passes on. Every soul stays on earth, good or bad. If your world has no magic, then those who can manipulate those souls become the wizards of that world.

>>22117202
>DAT Vincent Price Laugh

>People stating that death is evil for killing.
I think you guys really do not understand what the Grim Reaper is.
Anyway

>>22116080
>The Grim Reaper, Death: Not evil.
Traditionally yes
>Party is squaring off against death and his agents for some ... reason.
Why? The default assumption is that death is Neutral in some fashion, yes. But why he is being added to your game...

So why OP?
I feel that you might not be telling /tg/ something. In what scenario has the PCs come face to face with an agent of death? Because if Death is doing something BBEG like- then that makes him the big bad EVIL guy.

>>22117196
Mein Wee Jas im Acheron.

>>22117235
Or you know, we could just all become immortal, and either make the universe bigger, or live in one of those infinite planes, or hell, give up reproduction.

Also, fuck you and your bag.

>>22116656
I think he meant having kids, bub.

You know, I was giving you some doubt. That comment made me realise you're just a virginal manchild.

>>22117257
>Because if Death is doing something BBEG like- then that makes him the big bad EVIL guy.

"BBEG" is often used as a shorthand for "antagonist"... it really doesn't require that the character being referred to be evil anymore. A BBEG could be morally ambiguous or even technically correct from his perspective.

>>22117221
Once again you have lost me.

The Paladin was completely wrong in his attempt to classify Death as an evil being. The act of something dying is not inherently evil, it's just something that happens as a natural result of being alive in the first place.

As far as the magic radar is concerned that problem falls upon the DM. Detect Evil only detects evil things; all the Paladin should know is that Death is not evil.

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>>22117261
>give up reproduction
I can't let you do that.

>>22117221

Again, it does come down to player belief, which does require a least a little bit of putting aside your own personal views on how you see death versus how a character in a setting where Death is considered an actual being, and a being that's considered TN in the setting of the game. While I don't feel the same way about death IRL (and most of the characters I play would agree with closer to how I see death, although I can think of one or two who are in line with how you think), I do have to set aside some of my IRL mindset in games. If the GM justifies slavery or torturing a criminal a as being neutral in game, then it's not my place to insist he's wrong and it's an evil, evil thing that must be abolished.

>>22117261

>either make the universe bigger, or live in one of those infinite planes, or hell, give up reproduction.

TRY THINKING ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS OR THE LIKELYHOOD OF DOING ANY OF THOSE. NO REALLY. JUST TRY. I'D LOVE TO SEE THE MENTAL GYMNASTICS YOUR COCKBRAIN WILL DO TO TRY AND JUSTIFY THIS SHITTY IDEA BECAUSE YOU'RE TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY ASS MOTHERFUCKER TO JUST TAKE THE BAG LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

ALSO THE BAG GIVES NO FUCK. NOW IN IT!

Eliminating Death, huh?

>>http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mortilus

And then everyone was ageless.

Think you guys can deal with thousand-year-old kids running around? Youth is more than just body shape, y'see....

>>22117287

You think you can't let him? We've got a lot more reasons why.

At least you ladies can still fuck if you have no reproduction, and even possibly gain more options to in some cases. What happens to our vast amount of unborn babies if reproduction and children suddenly stop being a thing?

>>22117285
No, but Death killing people is.
>>22117291
No, but just because the GM thinks slavery or tortue is neutral, doesn't mean my character has too. I can't FORCE him out of character to change his mind, that doesn't mean I can't smite every slaver I see and free all the slaves.

>Playing as Paladin Moses.
>This could end well.

I'm gone. Later /tg.

>Its 9 am, I've been up all night. Peace.

>>22117282
Yes. Thank you. Not really the point of that post as I'm sure you are aware.

>>22117336
>No, but Death killing people is.

I stopped counting how many different ways people have tried to explain that this interpretation is completely wrong.

DEATH DOESN'T KILL PEOPLE, IT FERRIES THEIR IMMORTAL SOULS!

On that note, I'm fucking crashing too.

>>22117336

To be fair, I'm not saying the GM must agree with this mindset either. Hell, he could OOC agree with the idea it's evil, but be running a Roman Empire-style setting where indentured servitude and the style of slavery seen in the empire wouldn't be seen as evil, but as a necessary part of daily life. And I'm sure the dudes who were just pulled from their nice, stable homes in a family who stood a chance of adopting them or forgiving their debts are going to disagree with your characters assessment that he's done good.

>>22117336

Also, is it better for someone who's taken massive amounts of damage, and things that would be either incredibly long and painful to heal or, in a more real world scenario, impossible to heal, to live or to be allowed to die? I noticed you never responded to my Miracle Day postulation earlier, save for maybe a "BUT JUSTICE" nonsense blurb. If you're still around, can you answer how you feel on the idea of people with mortal and agonizing injuries, and if it's right for them to die?

Hey guys!Try to ignore the troll posts, in case he comes back

>>22116080
Death is true neutral, doubtless - if he discriminated then he might be evil.

Good people tend to accept when their time is done, believing it natural. Probably explained by >>22116851. And especially for the religious, death is seen as passage to another life.

>>22116080
You tried to pull that gimmick with a paladin in the players' party?

I see what you were going for, but surely you had to have seen that one coming.

Also, I'd have to ask why the Reaper sends agents of "ever-increasing" strength? I mean wouldn't Death just send his biggest and baddest agent after the first failed attempt? Are the Agents mortal beings like cultists or are they like phantoms or mini-reapers? If it's the latter, how is a mini-reaper supposed to train up to fight heroes?

Not trying to be a dick, just genuinely curious.

>>22117607
I wonder why Death would send anybody at all. After all, Death is entropy, so eventually everybody would see him anyway.

>>22117677

Maybe he's not sending anyone, but it's just a representation of himself. Death is an endless vast event that effects everyone, so a concept of Death that's all of the various psychopomps existing simultaneously, shepherding everyone to the afterlife simultaneously, with an aspect to appeal or soothe anyone who passes over makes sense. Hell, it justifies the fight as well: a band of murderhobos need an enemy to fight, so when they die together, they face a Death who is an enemy that's scaled enough to be a challenge, but still something they can overcome.

>>22116422
Couldn't Death be lawful neutral? I mean the Reaper is just doing his duty, right? He shepherds the dead because people HAVE to die and the system MUST be upheld. When people slip through the cracks, it throws the whole natural order out of whack.

>>22116578
Nigga, you evil.

>>22116080
>Whining like a certain white-and-purple equine when I tell him that Death and all of its proxies are True Neutral
>Tell him that Death does not discriminate, care, or show any emotion in its duty

Being indifferent to sentient life is Evil in D&D, not Neutral. You don't need to love killing people, you just need to _not care_.

>>22117713
If you want. Death can be doing it because it's his job, in which case he would tend towards LN. He could do it because he believes it is what ought to happen, that it is just his nature to guide the dead to their proper place, or he is a manifestation of Entropy and the inevitable truth that all things must end he might tend more towards TN. If he focuses more on providing solace and comfort to the newly-dead and gently guiding them to where they ought to be he could be more Good than Neutral.

But above all else he is a force of nature, and immutable fact of the universe.

>>22116204
>>Paladin wants to get rid of SEX
Sounds pretty fucking evil to me

You are the new BBEG, in your insane quest to remove the concept of fucking from the universe.

>>22117779
His servant are fun-loving Psychopomps, that try to enjoy life, despite knowing, that it'll someday end.

>>22117745
I disagree. Death is neutral, because while both good and evil men take lives, the purpose behind that life taking is what determines the alignment. If your a mass murderer or a serial killer, or the brave knight who slay's that vicious killer, life taking is definitely not always evil. So, if your purpose is neither to slay for pleasure, or slay for duty, but for the extension of something as timeless as just death itself, that, in my book, would be neutral. They are not indiscriminate killers, nor are they men of justice, they are beings that preform a duty that is dictated to them from beyond.

grim reaper is true neutral for sure

>>22117806

Or bitter and angry psychopomps that just want to get it over with, and want the dead to stop crying long enough to fucking pass on already. Or tender and caring, and comforting those who need it most as they walk along with them to the afterlife.

>>22117826
>I disagree.

You can disagree that the English adjective "good" or "evil" is appropriate, but in terms of D&D alignments you are simply wrong.

>People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Does Death have any qualms with doing his job? Maybe he doesn't like everything he has to do, but lacks the courage to do anything about it. If so, he can be D&D-Neutral. If not, he cannot be D&D-Neutral unless he is of sub-human intelligence.

>“Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

As cited, you do not need to take pleasure in killing to be D&D-Evil. Not caring is sufficient. If a personification of death is indifferent to whom he collects, then he is D&D-Evil.

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That reaping faggot has been palling around with fuckin Dracula. You best believe i'mma smite dat ass, son.

>>22117912

Maybe he's trying to get to Dracula first? Pompous vampiric asshole, making him look bad in front of the other personifications of incomprehensible ideals and concepts, I wouldn't be surprised if he decided "Fuck that Vlad asshole, Imma go kill him myself. I'm going to choke him to death and watch the light drain from his eyes, vampires not working like that, I'm fucking Death and I can do that."

He's obviously fighting Simon to get him to step off because Dracula is HIS.

This is ridiculous.
I understand the concept of fighting Death's agents, etc. etc.
But complaining about his alignment is ridiculous. He's the Reaper, he shouldn't even have an alignment since his only function is going around and taking life. He's a force of nature, nothing more, nothing less.
Trying to slap a label on him is like trying to label a shower of rain, or the growing grass.
However since this is DnD where even some animals have a goddamn alignment (why?), then I guess slap Death with Lawful Neutral. He faithfully does his goddamn job every goddamn millisecond with no thought otherwise. He sticks with the role he's been given faithfully and sees it through.

>>22117895
let's just agree to not anthropomorphize abstract concepts anymore please.

>>22117895

By this logic though, all of the racial deities are also evil because they have at least a partial genocide-base portfolio that requires hatred and warring with typically one other monstrous species. Garl Glittergold doesn't want "all of the evil kobolds" dead, he wants "all the kobolds" dead, and he's considered fucking either Neutral Good or Chaotic Good.

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>>22117959
Life or "The Maker" as it otherwise known, is the personification of creativity, enjoyment and, of course, life.

I'm all for roleplaying and character development, I really am... but whenever I hear a DM start in with the whole "What *is* evil, really?" routine I just give up on the game for the night.

It usually means the DM has made a horrible character and they're very, very proud of them.

>>22118077

To be fair, I wouldn't complain about any alignment choice, even the more extreme goods and evils, for a personification of Death. I can see any justification towards it, including base RAW explanations, personal believes, and just "well, I never saw a Chaotic Neutral psychopomp before, so I wanted to see what death would be like, if Death was a dickass thief who would steal lives at random because he's terrible and it amuses him." If it was King Regimiko the Crusader Paladin of Torture and Brutal Monster Rape, then yeah I'd bitch, but asking if Death must be automatically evil, I can accept some leeway there.

>>22116438
I'd actually say she's lawfull good in that setting.
She holds the system and doesn't stride aside from it. But does it with a human smile and a guiding hand.

That to me is a kind face of LG. If she was TN she'd just reap and not really care.

This whole discussion seems to be based on a false premises: death is committing murder.

But lawful killing is not murder. Solders, executioners, doctors mercy killing, and paladin's slaying evil are not evil.

As death is acting in an official capacity, perhaps as an agent of the gods, perhaps as an agent of nature, perhaps as an agent of some over-god, it is not committing "murder", and is not guilty of "murdering" innocents.

As for Lord-Father Priestius Benedictus, he's setting himself up for a fall. Whatever philosophizing justifications he comes up with, Death is registering as some form of Neutral on the "Detect Evil-o-meter" and is guilty of doing nothing more than lawfully performing his duties.

As Benedictus so eloquently put it, Paladins aren't necessarily about end results, they are about the actions e.g. doing good while not doing evil.

So no matter what issues he has with the system, or his long term goals, attacking Death is a violation of his oaths; he is attacking with intent to kill a neutral entity (as it was initially established Death would register as) lawfully performing his duties.

Benedictus can not do so and retain his Paladin, Lawful, or Good status. Rationalizing why killing a neutral creature lawfully performing his duties is a good action is not something a paladin gets to do.

>>22118302
Law is just as much "I do what I'm told", as Chaos is "lolrandum".

>>22118394
And how does murdering a verified neutral official in the course of their lawfully designated duties fit under the paladin code?

This isn't about being "lawful dumb". Paladins don't get to kill neutral officials of a legitimate, non-evil government just because they feel the ends justify the means. That's pretty much the opposite of what a paladin is.

>>22118394
Chaos is following your desires, whims and emotions without thinking about consequences because law is something artificial that is easily broken. Playing chaotic can be annoying for the rest of the group since your character will commonly lack reservations in social situation when at odds with someone.

>>22116332
>>Paladins calling gods out on bullshit
> thinking that killing Death for doing his job is Good
You are the worst kind of paladin.

>>22116348
>Still, OP's Paladin Player should have been able to detect if the being in question was evil.
He could. He just didn't like the answer he got.

>>22116684
>Because in D&D there *is* enough room for everyone. There are planes of infinite size and magical food creation sufficient to feed everyone. This whole overpopulation argument doesn't work.
You don't know this. There is no one unified D&D setting. What about Dark Sun; where there's hardly any water for anyone?

>>22118824
>There is no one unified D&D setting.
Planescape.
If I knew more about Spelljammer, then I would add it to the list too.

All these shallow ways of thinking and "HURDUR IM DA PC I DO WHAT I WANT" mentality.

Ugh.

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>>22118824
>BBEG paladin removes death from the Dark Sun setting
>overpopulation leads to there not being enough water to quench everyones thirst
>people get more desperate because everyone lives in constant dehydration
>the people cry out for a saviour to deliver them in to deaths sweet embrace because the next life has to be better then the hell they live in

>>22118940
That's what happens when the player thinks the world revolves around him/her.

Death makes life valuable, removing death would remove all value which is morally reprehensible.

>>22119067
Giving people the choice whether they want to die or not, seems like the best solution. I don't mean that everybody should have that choice, of course.

>>22119067
While I'm on your side, that really doesn't make a very good logical proof. One may just as easily say: "Evil makes good valuable, so fighting evil is morally reprehensible" or "dark makes light valuable, so turning on the lights is morally reprehensible."

>>22119067
Not to mention if cells don't die we should all be coverd in tumors and if cells don't die we can't break down food made out of living things.

In short: No such thing as "good".

>>22119106
I don't know that I agree with that. Take it from the God's perspective where humanity is basically children and death isn't so much an end as a continuation into another part of life.

It's really not best to give children the choice of when to leave the arcade or the playground. They lack perspective, knowledge, an maturity. At a certain point it is the parents job to say, "ok, time to move on to the afterlife."

It's also a good reason why randomly killing people is evil, but gods/death choosing people isn't. The kid that kicks other kids off the jungle gym is in the wrong. The parent who takes them off because it is time to go is not.

Now this isn't necessarily an argument for death in our world, one way or the other. That would depend on our personal beliefs. But death has a very different meaning in a world with gods and an afterlife than in one without.

>>22119162
No such thing as evil if we are gonna split hairs like that.

The Paladin was in the right. Not for claiming that death had to be evil; but for trying to destroy it. Every fucker in this thread arguing that LG means he should go gently into the night is completely full of shit. If you can put an end to death, then do it.

Overpopulation? We will conquer the stars, the habitable planes, and spread to every corner of the multiverse.

Each will live for eons until they believe they have had enough (and that day may never come), free from the injustice of entropy. Our buildings will not crumble, our bodies will not fail, the heat death of the universe will never come.

Anyone who wants to tell me this is not the best possible outcome is operating purely on a sour grapes. Gilgamesh said death was inevitable? Fuck Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh was a pussy and a quitter, and a goddamn caveman! What the hell does he know?

This guy has the opportunity to create universal utopia, and you want to let your stupid status-quo worship get in his way? You all deserve to die.

>>22119184
Whatever, moral alignment is a fucking stupid concept.

>>22119201
Go to bed HFY faggot.

>>22119201
That assumes death is bad. If by dying good souls pass into deserved paradise and evil ones pass into deserved damnation, what's so bad about it? You assume that mortal life is the end all and be all, and that what lies beyond doesn't have a greater purpose.

>>22119221
First, prove that there is such a thing as an afterlife.

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>>22119208
It's clumsily ripped from Moorcocks writings where the alignments actually makes sense.

>>22119124
Yeah it would be pretty horrible, getting rid of death would require significantly more effective means of dealing with mutations.

>>22119228
>*cast planeshift*
Anything else?

Saying the reaper is evil is you falling into the most basic trap of rigid moral codes.

If you lived a good life, death is nothing to fear in such a setting, because your spirit will live forever in your chosen gods land, right?

Fuck whiney children, dont fear the reaper.

>>22119221
In a typical D&D game? Planeshift or find/summon an outsider for information.

>>22119201
It isn't about whether killing being good or evil. Paladin's are not justified in doing any action they feel has a good outcome. That's a different discussion. A paladin isn't defined solely by doing good, and they can't just do any action they feel will have a good outcome.

A paladin is defined by being lawful good and following a code. By doing good via good actions. You don't get to murder neutral officials of a legitimate government because you feel the ends justify the means.

What's more, a Paladin believes in order and organization, especially that of the divine. You don't get to spit in the face of your gods plan and be a paladin.

Can you do those things and be good? Sure? Would destroying death be a good action? Possibly, that's another discussion. But such actions go against the core of what it is to be a paladin.

You can argue "lawful good is not lawful dumb" and "paladins don't have to be dumb" as much as you want, but what you advocating isn't intelligent paladin. It's just NOT a paladin. It goes against what it means to BE a paladin. Paladins don't get to spit in the face of all authority, of their god, of the universal order of the universe, and murder neutral beings committing no crime. There is more to being a paladin than being good and killing things with righteous fury.

>>22119228
In D&D? Um, there is. It's verified. You can visit there and meet up with dead people. Hence, death isn't the great evil it may be in our world.

>>22119221
>>22119246
If there is an afterlife in the setting, no matter how good, then Death is still bad, because it deprives humans of their freedom. You can cast plane shift and get to Celestia any time, why do you need death to tell you when you have to go there never to return? The whole system keeps humans subservient, at the whims of gods; why let it continue, when we can eradicate death and become gods ourselves?

>>22119208
It's fine as a general archtype descriptor. The terms "lawful good", "lawful evil", "lawful neutral", and "chaotic good" all have useful connotations as character archtypes and role playing aids. It's when people try to grossly simplify them down and then treat them as iron clad restraints, or fit each and every action into a black and white alignment interpretation you get problems.

>>22119302

Hell, you can occasionally bribe death into letting a dead person come back for a little while, provided they didn't die from old age or something like that. Death's pretty fucking reasonable in D&D.

>>22119319
That's not a question of good, it's a question of terrible mortal hubris. That, my friend, is the hallmark of evil. You dress sin up as liberty, arrogance as choice. I fear the Abyss awaits you should you continue this path.

Or in other words, get over yourself.

>>22119319
>never to return?

Says who?

Petitioners can plane shift back to the Prime Material as much as wizards can cast it to go to the Seven Heavens.

>>22119319

Look, if you're too much of a putz in life that you don't have anyone willing to pony up an astral diamond when you do croak, it's not death's problem. Maybe you need to stop blaming him and make better friends.

>>22119287
You've fallen into the Euthyphro problem. Is something good because the gods say so? Or do the gods say so because it is good? Obviously the latter, no?

A LG soldier would refuse to follow an order that would lead to genocide even if the President himself called and told him to do it; a paladin is no different.

It is a paladin's job to do what is just, no matter who or what opposes them. And if he falls for his hubris, so be it.

>>22119319
You are now making the assumption that "depriving humans of their freedom" is an intrinsically evil thing.

But laws are not evil. Parents taking their kids home from the park or denying them an extra helping of cake are not evil.

By your definition gravity is evil. The need to eat is evil. The very laws of the universe are evil, as they deny humans freedom. But a world with ultimate freedom is a world of nothing. Limitations are part of what defines complexity. A program with no rules does nothing. It's balance between freedom and constraints (and many other things) that makes the universe happen, that makes life worth living, that gives anything meaning.

Denying people freedom is only evil circumstantially. It's good circumstantially.

>>22119319
Because, everybody becoming god would ruin the universe: laws of physics being fucked left and right, ancient demons whose powers are beyond imagination would be released upon the world and people would fight with cosmic fire over who owns the universe.

>>22119319
Let's have a proof of that.

Depriving humans of their freedom = evil
Good places limitations on people, thus depriving them of their freedom.
Therefore: good = evil.

Great job there.

>>22119319
And what makes you think the divinities wouldn't curbstomp humans for open rebellion?

>>22119341
Sir, you dress chains up as morality, weakness as humility. Liberty would be wasted on you.

In other words, fuck you.

>>22119382
Sounds like he wants chaos to reign over everything.

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>>22119355
>Implying you can rez someone who's died of old age.

>>22119418
You'll make a fine dretch one day. Until then, I hope you reconsider.

>>22116797
Define this 'perfect being' for me.
Is it man, with his hatred and his love, his lust to conquer the world or save it in equal measure?
Is it the dwarf, with his stout heart and stubbornness and unwillingness to help those who are not family in some way?
Is it the elf, with his wild and feral countenance and joyseeking, frivolous nature?

I say nay.

We cannot make the 'perfect being'. We can only strive to become closer to perfection, but always we are kept from this by our very natures.

Destroy death? You might as well kill Hatred or Sickness, or Hunger, or Suffering. Or Love, commonly held sacred but which drives men to evil as often as it inspires them to good.

You have a flawed understanding of what it means to wear this mantle, my friend. You do not understand that without imperfections, life's beauties are shallow and meaningless.

Death is not evil. All things must end, else stagnation is our fate, and where there is stagnation oppression is sure to follow - and your goals are certainly oppressive.

Step back, and take the vigil again, before I am forced to raise my sword against one I would call brother.

>>22116212
I think death is more lawful neutral then true neutral. He we that back away from his law, his ruling is the law of the cosmos. If it your time to die it's your time to die, so you better shut up and get in the fucking bag.

>>22119370
Right, and murdering neutral officials performing their lawfully appointed duties is not being just.

I'm not arguing weather it is evil or not. But when you throw out all authority, all constraints, even that of your god, to do something where you feel the ends justify the means? Your not lawful, your not a paladin.

I feel like people want to say a Paladin is justified in doing anything good. Lawful is not the same thing as good. You can do something good while not being lawful. But paladins must be lawful.

>>22119113
This is true, in order to deal with that argument a system of determining value would have to be created in order to determine which actions are morally acceptable, where the morally acceptable action is more valuable than the situation that brought the action into existence. In this case death is the situation and leading a meaningful life is the action. Removing the situation here makes the action not happen, and I would say that a meaningful life is better than a meaningless one. In the case of fighting evil, removing evil from existence does make doing good effectively meaningless, but there is also no evil which I would say is better than there being evil.

Apologies for rambling, I hope this makes sense.

>>22119370

But considering hubris is a mortal sin and generally seen as an evil, or at least a bad and negative, trait, then isn't it enough that the Paladin falls because his pride is so great that he can't accept he is wrong? It's not even Humanity, Fuck Yeah, at that point, it's Humanity, Just Because You Can Cut Off Your Dick Doesn't Mean You Should. Many people have given reasons why eternal life for everyone is a really, really bad idea, and if a Paladin insists he will go through with it and killing death because he must be right, then he is the worst sort of wrong.

>>22119418
You reason like a child and assume everyone actually would want the same thing you do.

>>22119442

Then you can stop being greedy and using up all of the air and food. Or become a lich like a normal mortophobe.

>>22119418
Because believing in the necessity of ANY laws or constraints makes you an enemy of liberty?

Freedom != good

They are not one in the same. Again, it's a simple logical proof.

if Freedom == good
and denying freedom == evil
and good constrains the actions of men
then good == evil

It just doesn't work.

>>22119395
Nice try. Good places limits on freedom only insofar as one would infringe on the freedoms of another (by say, killing them).

>>22119411
The slave is only ever a slave by choice. The choice may be between slavery and death, but it is a choice nonetheless.

>>22119435
Everyone should reign over themselves. This is not chaos, but what should be the ultimate goal of any order.

>>22119491

Sounds like we have a demon in Paladin's armor, lads, trying to stir up trouble and incite some rebellions against the Gods in a doomed bid to destroy an entire facet of existence because of "freedom".

>>22119491
Not everyone is fit to rule over themselves since a lot of people can't even take care of themselves.

>>22119491
> Everyone should reign over themselves. This is not chaos, but what should be the ultimate goal of any order.
You keep treating the terms paladin, good, and lawful as synonyms. They are not. A Paladin doesn't just fight for good. He fights for order, law, and civilization. Not "everyone should reign over themselves". That's not what a paladin is.

If a paladin has no constraints in their actions, does not follow order, serve the divine, and society, then the term "paladin" has no meaning. There is no difference between a chaotic good rogue and a lawful good paladin.

A paladin doesn't get to do whatever they want because the ends justify the means. They must be just in action as well as goal. They don't strive for total individual freedom and governance. They strive for law, justice and society.

>>22119449
Your "neutral officer" is committing genocide! If a robot tries to commit genocide you would destroy it! If a soldier commits genocide while "following orders" he deserves to die!
>>22119462
Eternal life is not bad. Many people have realized it is beyond their grasp and tried to justify their own weakness, that's certainly true. Why is it a sin to be proud and strive to make your own decisions?

>>22116080
That sounds exactly like the system used in OGAM (Of Gods and Men).

>>22119545
That makes him a fallen paladin.

>>22119554

So, do you have an answer for the town of charcoal-burned peasants, when you are out of Lay on Hands for the day, and they still beg for mercy of death?

>>22119554
if you are mortally wounded, in horrible pain with your guts hanging out, and death doesn't come for you, eternal life is very bad, you cruel bastard.

>>22116220
>Death is Evil for killing
>SO I MUST KILL DEATH
>Gods under puny human ideas of law

>>22119545
Law is not an end, it is a means to an end. Law was created to protect the good from the evil. Good places limitations on what we do, yes, but only insofar as our actions would harm others.

That's why >>22119486 is still talking out of their ass. Placing unjust limitations on freedom -- THAT is evil. Like telling someone that they must die, not by any fault of their own, but because such is the will of the gods.

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>>22119545

>>22119605
but its not that you must die because of the will of the gods.

YOU MUST DIE because you just got decapitated!
who the fuck wants to live as a severed head!?!

>>22119554
> Your "neutral officer" is committing genocide! If a robot tries to commit genocide you would destroy it! If a soldier commits genocide while "following orders" he deserves to die!

It's not genocide the way we understand the term. You may as well argue parents are kidnapping children when they take their kids home from the park before they want to go. In D&D life does not end at death, it's just a transition. The gods are the legal, lawful stewards of humanity. There is nothing immoral about them deciding when it is time to move on.

But it is murder to attempt to kill a parent for taking their children home because they are "evil" for "denying humans freedom".

>>22119585
>>22119596
This is idiocy. If you are badly wounded then you might THINK you want to die, but really you want to be healed. And healing will come.

Plus, if you really have had enough of life, then you should have the option to end it. Suicide is not immoral, murder is.

>>22119596

If you are old to the point where your bones are brittle and constantly breaking and your mind is completely destroyed with dementia, eternal life is suffering.

That's the world you seek to bring. A world riddled with suffering elderly and gored victims. And that is why you're going to be my next BBEG, you fucking Fallen Paladin of the God of Life.

>>22119606
It's funny. The fourth post in that thread was something among the lines of
>"And then there's the guy who has realized how shitty alignments are and doesn't limit himself to them anymore."

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>>22116080
>Whining like a certain white-and-purple equine

What if killing death removes life because death is a fundamental part of life?

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>>22119491
Berk, you don't know what you're talking about. You are dead. We all are dead. Defying true death is understandable, but denying it to everyone is an inexcusable crime.

>>22119628
Tithonius error. Eternal life means eternal youth, if you have access to magic and technology. At least you've stopped arguing for the morality of death and are now arguing for the slightly less retarded pragmatism of death.