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So far as I can tell "Henshin" started to become a thing, was dropped and picked up a couple of times, made it to a rough alpha, and got abandoned again.
With /tg/'s help I'd like to gut the previous systems for the best things and continue to help dudes all around the world live out their dreams of being friend of justice.

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Momentum was the most important thing from the previous systems as far as I can tell. It acts as a huge equalizer and gives the game a toku flair. I didn't quite agree with how freeform it was made out to be, so I've tried pinning it down to numbers, and rebuilding the game system around it, with toku in mind.
At this point I need some harsh critique and input. Maybe some ideas too, mainly creative solutions.
If you guys don't dig this stuff anymore that's cool too, /m/ might be interested.

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I was saddened to see that project abandoned, I'd love to see somebody else take the reigns and try to hammer out all the problems it was left with.

Well, I've got a quest thread in the works but /tg/ and /m/ didn't seem too interested.

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>>21643859
Would gladly do.
>>21643918
/m/ is a bit slow on that kind of thing, dunno why /tg/ wouldn't jump at the chance to don the mask and rubber.

>>21643989

Well, I tried before about six months ago and both times it lost interest by the third thread. Maybe I was just trying too hard to set up the world building.

I will say this: Mutants and Masterminds works surprisingly well for a Toku game. The only thing that it really lacks is a mechanic for high-powered finishers; I suppose a damage-skewed attack with some limiters on certain ranks of damage based on how injured the target is works within the system, but doesn't feel like a decisive blow that most finishers are.

I'm running a game inspired by Kamen Rider at the moment, especially the Zodiarts from Fourze, and my players are loving the hell out of it.

What's Toku?

>>21644129

Japanese people in funny costumes punching each other.

>>21644093
So I've heard. I don't know a lot about Mutants and Masterminds but from what I've read of someone playing a Kamen Rider character in it, there's some sort of hero-token that I like better than previously suggested charisma-based actions, I'll look more into the mechanics but that's what I've ripped out so far.

>>21644160

Ah, the Hero Points. The work like bennies / mulligans in other systems, in that you can blow them to reroll a die, automatically get the result you want for an action, shrug off a penalty, or survive a fight.

The other thing you may want to take from M&M is Extra Effort: Extra Effort allows you to do things like get an alternate effect out of one of your powers, get a 20 on a check, or a few other things. The drawback is that you automatically gain the Fatigued status afterwards, and if you were already Fatigued, you become Exhausted. Most peeps save their Hero Points to use them in conjunction with Extra Effort: use Extra Effort to get an alternate effect that you need for an encounter, and then spend a Hero Point to lose the Fatigued status.

>>21644263
How can the alternate effect be used?

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I'm was one of the guy who was working on toku/magical girl system that call Henshin: Transforming Heroes (Here is link to my blog http://henshingames.wordpress.com/).

But sadly I had put it on ice and instead I'm working on more generic rule light system in style of Risus, Wushu Open and maybe Fate...?


>>21643918
Real? I real like to check it out.

But I have to leave this thread for now because I need sleep and I work tomorrow. I will watch over this thread.

>>21644375

Yeah, after the first try failed I decided to retool.

Essentially, it takes place in an amalgamation of all the toku universes but the people are [mostly] unaware of what goes on most of the time. Flash forward to the MC meeting an armor clad figure on her way home from work and we see where it goes from there. I've got mostly villain and encounter designs down now, I always have trouble deciding on human appearances.

>>21644316

Alternate effects are just powers that you can't use simultaneously, but cost less. For instance, one of my characters has several different attacks as alternate effects from a single attack, and even a defensive mode that makes him sturdier and regenerate health. He has access to all of them, but he can't attack with his wrecking ball and his bouncing buzz-saw in the same action, nor could he have his increased toughness or regeneration while using his special attacks.

Normally they're bought during character generation and with XP earned through play, but Extra Effort allows you to get an alternate effect that you haven't actually bought. It's meant to model those powers that superheroes use once to solve a particular problem, but then never use again. The first thing that jumps to mind in a toku show would be in Kamen Rider OOO where he uses the Unagi Arms in tandem with the Medagaburyū to get an electrical slash.

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>>21644375
I'm glad to know you still exist, hero.
I may end up stealing more of your stuff, thanks for the link.

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I sort-of but not quite started outlining a Toku system of my own. The only problem is that it's sort of evolving beyond being screen accurate to Kamen Rider (you can pass out from exhaustion or have a mental breakdown).

>>21643808
That is...extremely light.

>>21643989
Shin looks do sad there. I want to hug him.

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>>21644574
I swear you're turning into Nul, turning up everywhere I go.
>you can pass out from exhaustion or have a mental breakdown
What, like a mental health stat?


>That is...extremely light.
Thank goodness, there's a lot more I was hoping would make it in. Could you be more specific about what needs more rules and stuff?

>>21644574

Well, >>21643808 is a rough alpha, it looks like. Nowhere near playtest-ready. So give him a break, he's still working on it.

As to passing out from exhaustion, that happens all the freaking time in Kamen Rider. I don't see how that's not show-accurate.

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As the last guy who tried, here's hoping.
Gonna tell you right now, this board isn't super helpful with crunch. They'll tell you what needs to be added or changed, but not how to go about it.

I could help, but the nature of the genre requires at least three layers of back rules or some serious abstractions. My lack of motivation comes from the lack of people I have to play it with.

But if I can help, and I'm around, I will.

>>21643407
Yeah, I was going to playtest the alpha but shit kind of fell through for some reason.

>>21644807
>They'll tell you what needs to be added or changed, but not how to go about it.
That's cool by me, I'd like to retain some creative control. Also, your support is awesome.

>>21644826
I'm hoping to put together a proper playtest in a few weeks or over the break, with simple combat tests starting next weekend if you're interested.

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>>21644807
>>21643808

A quick skim says you've got your goals set, and it is now in fact time to crunch.

Core attributes, desired core mechanic, and Skills vs Abilities.
^ these are the things you need to nail down next.

As far as transformation is concerned, I had implemented a double-sided character sheet. One side being the normal state of the character, and the other being transformed.
Transformations, as far as I'm thinking, should provide as basic set of flat bonuses, with a specifically bonus or two to some specif skills/abilities (depending).

Weapons should be weapons (attack bonuses, damage bonuses, ranges, and special uses), and armor should be inherent in the transformed state. Instead of armor in the traditional sense, it should be "Toughness," or something. How hard they have to be hit before they feel it.

I have no idea if you've ever done this kind of project before.

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>>21644650
>I swear you're turning into Nul, turning up everywhere I go.
I'm guessing you're from /m/ then?

>What, like a mental health stat?
For what I was working on, there are 3 "ability scores": Physical, Spiritual, and Mental.

Those abilities affect attacks and skills (and other stuff?) but a character also has 3 kinds of HP based on each.
-Life (Physical): Simple HP. Go to 0 and you die.
-Stability (Mental): Sort of like sanity but the effects aren't permanent. Aside from psychic powers, can also be lost by shocks or emotional trauma. Effects can range from hesitation to total despondency to a psychotic episode.
-Energy (Spiritual): I guess this is like AFMBE's Essence? It was inspired by OOO. The basic idea is that all powers/form drain you. There are two basic classification for essence-draining acts: Instant and sustained.
For example, OOO's Kuwagata thunder attack is instant and drains a lot of energy while OOO's Tora claws are sustained and are pretty cheap.

>Could you be more specific about what needs more rules and stuff?
I can see Momentum being troubling for a single-form character. A 1-form rider who's spent all of his points on Momentum could outshine a multiform Rider.
You might also need to develop the Henshin rules more to represent both instantaneous transformations (most Riders) and transformations that require physical effort (G3).

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>>21644995
> Not calling them "Mind, Body, and Soul."

Or Might, Wits, and Vigor; alternatively.

>>21644995
The momentum rule is easy if you're doing traditional levels:
"You can't store more Momentum at one time than your current level."

>>21644995

My interest is peaked. Also, what would be a fair way to integrate finishers and like?

Also, against MOTW, how would the stats be placed on the enemy to make it both challenging but not brutal considering that these often end up being single character fights?

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>>21644941
>One side being the normal state of the character, and the other being transformed.
This might work for a lot of the older type characters but modern toku relies largely on shoving in tons of forms. In general, acquired forms I'd give a card each.
>Transformations, as far as I'm thinking, should provide as basic set of flat bonuses
Agreed, once you're transformed you should be leaping building and punching with a few tons of force.
>with a specifically bonus or two to some specif skills/abilities (depending).
The idea of horizontal forms, and I realize I should make a visual to explain this, is that you can have forms that specialize in things. If appropriate, like a sword-form or trigger-form, the form may alter the momentum mechanics slightly so it makes sense to use (increased chance of getting momentum off a weapon). Forms are also often elemental, which means available abilities, resistances, and damages.
>Weapons should be weapons (attack bonuses, damage bonuses, ranges, and special uses), and armor should be inherent in the transformed state.
I was a bit unsure about whether armor should be strictly tied to form, thank you for the input I feel better about tying it down like that.

>I have no idea if you've ever done this kind of project before.
Nope.

>>21644995

I can definitely agree on point three; the game should encourage people to have multiple forms. It's part of the source material, after all! Perhaps characters with multiple forms get extra Momentum from attacks, or have their Momentum costs reduced? Or perhaps having more forms reduces the Momentum costs for shifting them, encouraging you to use them more.

As to the Mind / Body / Soul stats, I like it. Simple, easy to remember, and easily builds into other things. Perhaps the Soul Energy acts as a sort of 'mana pool' from which non-finisher attacks are spent from?

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>>21645072
>>21644995
Additionally, while having 3 base attributes does accel at making characters diverse, it does kind of limit speicalization in another sense. Unless you do Abilities (instead of skills, ala your Rune Quest) the strong guy is also going to be the fast guy.

If you don't want to do Abilities, and instead want to do a traditional skill set, try doing what WW does and have players prioritize the three as categories, giving them X, Y, and Z points in their primary, secondary, and tertiary categories.

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Did we ever figure out what to do with the villains?

>>21645161
>>21645147
Just don't forget to facilitate people who just one 1 or 2 forms.

>>21645211
Make'm evil.

>>21645241

What'd be the statting for each rung of the hierarchy?

Grunt, Weekly, Rival, General, Big Bad, Macguffin Energy Source?

>>21645275
About.
Mook = a level or two lower than party
Weekly = same level
Rival = slightly higher
Big Bad = Double
Macguffins are devices, they have no stats.

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>>21645161
>the game should encourage people to have multiple forms.
I don't necessarily agree. Forms are fun but I want to keep older-style characters relevant.
>>21645072
Possibly a fantastic idea, still have to balance out the moves available to the character. Rider 1 hasn't learned many new tricks in the last 40 years, but he can still take down a modern officer-level enemy at the very least.
>>21645211
Easiest way is to split them into ranks, with the main differences being the finisher required.

Taking a name now since it's getting confusing.

>>21645275

Mook, Sergeant (think the Pseudo-Yummies in OOO, or the Sugormin in Gokaiger), MotW, Lieutenant, Rival, Big Bad, Final Boss.

>>21645313
As far as 1 from vs multi, I think it's like the difference between putting your EXP in perks or raising the core attributes.

Finite-Form 'riders' get stronger, and get better at what it is they do; but that's what they do. That's it.

Multi-Form 'rides' may have a form as powerful (or at least nearly) as the 1 form 'rider,' but their up side is diversity. They can do gunds/words/magic/whatever; depending on the form.

>>21644995
How about a Momentum multiplier for using multiple forms in a given battle?

>>21645399
> gunds
> words
> magic
What is this, Wizard?

>>21645421
Or, successfully changeing is a thing that gives you a point of momentum; just like the other actions.

That way it's an up, but it's not a game maker/breaker.

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>>21645399
This seems workable. While bumping your form up increases your stats automatically, formless characters can do it manually. Multi-formers get situational advantages, but have to build up momentum in combat to switch forms. We can just put a conversion of that momentum/form point in that can be used to upgrade the states of a single form.

>>21645421

That may bias the game too much towards multiform riders, especially if it's a multiplier. Faggot Rider wants to still support Showa-era styles of building riders.

I could see maybe a bonus to Momentum gain per multiple form, but at an increased cost to go into later forms.

>>21645466
>>21645471
Sounds like a better approach.

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>>21645441
Doesn't sound bad to me.

>>21645513
I'm on the fence about Wizard to be frank. It's one of those things where I'm like, "I should be digging this," but for some reason it's just not clicking.

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>>21645469
If we make the max stored momentum=level/2, this will encourage single-formers to max out their inherent momentum while also dumping into stats.

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>>21645030
I hadn't thought about that...

>>21645072
I'm just saying that it should be closely monitored as the levels go up.

>>21645138
Finishers just use a lot of Energy. You can use a finisher whenever you feel like, but you might need the ~40% of your total energy that you spent to use to fight again before you rest (or just not fall unconscious).
MOTW...no idea yet. Generals and high-enders would be essentially the same as Riders?

>>21645192
I was trying to think of skill sets/backgrounds that alter the character more. Like one that places more focus on technique (which nets precision-related skills and a discount on special attacks) or strength (brawn-based skills, better basic attacks, more expensive specials) along with more general backgrounds like cop, student, scientist, etc.

>>21645554
I highly recommend you stop watching weekly and marathon it when you're more in the mood.

>>21645554

For one, there should have been more buildup for the forms. Having four from the get-go and then an upgrade by episode 8 was just too rushed. Plus, the villains outside of Phoenix haven't done anything much.

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>>21645554

I'm liking it mostly because it's blowing Fourze out of the water. And while I really dug Fourze, Wizard is a step up, plain and simple. That first episode sold me, hook line and sinker.

>>21645469
And then Multi-formers get bonus momentum from changing in combat in exchange?

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Random off-shoot here, but hear me out. It may be a dumb idea that goes against whatever you've got in mind but just think about it.

What if the flat-bonus for the transformation was based only off of your level, like 1/2 of it or something? Then on every level you get X exp. This exp i spent on powers, gear, forms, etc. This way all combatants of A level are on a comparable field; but the people who've been putting points into being fast are already to level B in that regard, but the guy that spent his exp on an awesome blaster is still just at (insert speed stats) ballpark A. And then, because it's 1/2 (or maybe even 1/3), it starts to even out. at the max level, the things you haven't been upgrading are still just at 1/2 max level, but the things you have been are at Max level.

Just a thought.

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>>21645609

How is that different from W having nine forms out of the gate? Though, in W's fairness, he didn't get Fang until episode 16.

And hey, Medusa drained Koyomi's mana that one time. Seeing as how it caused a shit-pile of trouble for Wizard, you'd think she'd do it again.

>>21645636
>And then Multi-formers get bonus momentum from changing in combat in exchange?
Something like that could fall out if combat tests next weekend prove that it's unbalanced as-is. Multiple forms means you can reach pretty damned scary finals that even the best single formers can't hope to hit the stats of if you go full-vertical, but at the price of having almost no inherent momentum and having to build it up bit by bit for the henshin in combat. Momentum should already be the balancing force of the game.

>>21645569
Have "Backgrounds," and "Sources."
Backgrounds = Cop/Cheif/etc
Sources= Technology, Magic, Mutation, etc.

Backgrounds giving +1 to every skill under it's skill list, and maybe an inherent bonus if you break a threshold.

Sources working similarly, but more effect the core attributes, and your selection of starting powers; as well as how you transform.

>>21645636
Not unless you're going to have it provoke AoOs.

>>21645684

So basically, you're proposing that a Level 1 Rider gets +1 to all his stats while transformed. Then, just for calculation's sake, let's say he gets 5 XP to spend between his stats, and they each have a cap of 3.

A speed and martial-arts oriented Rider could put +2 to his Speed, a +2 in his Martial arts, and a +1 to his Strength. Thus, he'd overall have a 3 Speed, 3 Martial Arts, 2 Strength, and 1 in everything else.

A gun-and-weapons oriented Rider could instead put his 5 xp towards a +2 to Guns, a +2 to Melee Weapons, and a +1 to Dexterity. Overall, he'd have 3 Guns, 3 Melee Weapons, 2 Dexterity, and 1 in everything else.

The thing is is that Kamen Rider A would still have his +1 to Guns, Melee Weapons, and Dexterity just from being transformed, while Kamen Rider B would have his +1 to Martial Arts, Speed, and Strength, without having spent any points in them.

So what'd be the main risk/reward system for Tech, Mystic, and Organic transformation and also will passive abilities come into play?

>>21645805
Yes.
Because as we know, transforming makes you a badass; it's just different flavors of badass.

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>>21645751
I actually do have "sources" (Origin).
I like the idea of background but I feel that there should be something more...
My current outline uses broad backgrounds;
-Brawler, Investigator, Ambusher, Marksman, Striker, Support, Intellectual

Unfortunately they are rather haphazard. I guess I want a Background and a Fighting Style?

>>21645684
Base State form stats should have a natural progression with level. Extra forms improve on that a flat amount, so in effect, you are more powerful with level. Spending the level's point on gear and power is a interesting idea, and it may fit toku more than my loot system, even though I love charts.
Actually "spending the level" isn't something I want to do, at least not allow in mass, because level 1's walking around with god-tier attacks that do half a point of damage is kind of silly. in a bad way. You could accidentally underpower your character and get your ass whooped very easily. If the current system ends up not working, though, this is a good fallback.

Feels like I'm learning which mechanics need hammering the most, thank you all.

>>21645881

Maybe even tie in the fighting style with the Background? Say a cop gets +Guns out of the gate, while a martial artist gets +Unarmed during chargen.

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>>21645884
Yes, but by 'spending the level' you're buying up from 1. You can't skip to 4, you've got to go through 2 and 3 first. Think about how in Kuuga his rider kick starts off being able to kill 1 guy if he gets a direct hit; and by the end of it he has the potential to level city blocks.

>>21645881
Well, my notion would be that Background would cover the more mundane aspects of life, and give the cahracters a pre-standing skill set to base their actions on; from their real-world experiences.

Then Origin would be kind of how their powers work, and where it comes from; along with a bonus to some core attributes, or skills, or something; and guidelines on what kinds of powers you can get.

>>21645989
>Then Origin would be kind of how their powers work, and where it comes from; along with a bonus to some core attributes
I already have that, actually. Biological (Body), Mechanical (Mind), Magical (Spirit).
I just really need to evaluate what I'm looking for from the system.

>>21645884
So how would a Rider like OOO work? Aside from the complete combos (vertical forms) how would the interchangeability aspect of his forms be modeled?
Just throwing that out there.

>>21646171

OOO and Fourze are unique cases, in that they have different power sets outside of fully-transformed modes.

They could be an example of Horizontal forms (though, they'd have a metric fuck-ton of them off of their base forms), or perhaps there could be some kind of "slots" mechanic to model W/OOO/Fourze's powers.

W's would work pretty well as a representation of the difference between Horizontal and Vertical. Obviously, CycloneJoker is his Base form, and HeatMetal and LunaTrigger are Vertical forms off of his Base form, with CycloneJokerExtreme above them. LunaJoker, LunaMetal, CycloneMetal, CycloneTrigger, HeatJoker, and HeatTrigger would be Horizontal forms off of his Base Form, probably.

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>>21646171
Before armor was tied to form, I figured that OOO's non-combo forms could be replicated by splitting his equipment into armor, weapon, and power source. His arms are usually analogues to weapons, and since both armor and power sources have the ability to give you bonuses and abilities, you could make one legs and one head, swapping it out. This was NOT well thought out for OOO, it was a shit idea, the forms fit W better and the weapons fit Fourze better, a far better way to play OOO would be to charge the player 1/3 of a form for each medal, which gives you only limited abilities and bonuses of a full form.

>>21646171
He's kind of a special case. Normally something's a 'weapon' or a 'form,' but his forms are dictated by his weapons; when it is usually the other way around.

>>21646393

This may be too high-concept for the direction the conversation is going, but is it important to be able to model every Kamen Rider with this system? I mean, OOO works so drastically different from every other Kamen Rider that it may be more important to give people the tools to model a Kamen Rider-like character as opposed to copying notes straight from Toei's series bible.

>>21646605
Ideally, I do want ever Kamen Rider* to be able to be modeled by the system, though I may have to settle for some fudging in cases like OOO. The system should allow lots of room for Rider-like characters including other toku (I've got a few things in mind to make sentai work but not writing that down until the base system is more solid) and there should be enough freedom to introduce original ideas.

*Doesn't include shit like Core

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I'm calling it a night, but I'll be keeping an eye on you.

>>21646707

You say on the document to get ahold of you through roll20; how should we get in contact with you there, FR?

>>21647186
Thanks man.
>>21647228
Whip out your crystal ball and scry for me man.
Or email me.