They work great side-by-side core. 3.5 isn't supported anymore, so the only other official material is on WotC's website. Binders are cool and fun though. Enjoy.

There's a Binder Handbook somewhere on the internet that has listings for all of the web vestiges that have been released.

In addition you might want to look at Secrets of Pact Magic, which is a third party splat that kind of rewrites the whole Vestige thing (including alignments, some other things, and also makes them 1st-9th instead of 1st-8th). It might interest you.

>>20995093
Yeah, I figured as much... Glad to hear they work fine with core though. Had bad experiences with psionics so I was a little wary.

I see there are two other 3rd party books on pact magic but I don't know what kind of quality they are.

Go look up Binder Quest in the suptg archives, gives a good feel for the class.

>>20995117
Thanks just downloaded them and I'm looking through now.

>>20995144
;_;

>>20995144
That was actually my inspiration for the whole idea. Was looking up old totemist quests on sup tg and stumbled upon it.

To bad that GITP is down, because there was some pretty epic writefagotry on a whole Binder themed Horror game.

To your questions, in order:
>Can Binders stand out with core classes in the mix or do they only really stand a chance in an all pact magic campaign?
I'm not sure what you mean. Binders play very differently from core classes, and why on earth wouldn't you think they only work in an all pact magic campaign? They work fine as a class. They aren't as powerful as prepared spellcasters, but really, nothing is.

>If that is the case, anywhere I can find an expanded list of Vestiges or classes for greater character diversity?
There are vestiges online here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a
and also a bunch in the Dragon Magazines, for which I'd have to dig a bit.

>And last, but not least, do similar magic systems exist in any other systems other than D&D 3.5?
As far as I can tell, no.

About the best damn stuff I've seen on Pact Magic was created by The Demented One over on the Giant in the Playground forums. He turned the Lovecraft nasties into pact magic summons. Was trippy as shit

>>20995144
>>20995158

The idea of spells as NPCs themselves is just a goldmine for good character driven plots and creative challenges. It's definitely something I want to try myself sometime if I can ever find a willing participant.

>>20995125
>Had bad experiences with psionics so I was a little wary.

Well, actually, if you had bad experiences with psionics that generally means you are an idiot. Psionics work perfectly with core classes. The problem people have with them is usually an issue of them failing to read.

>>20995125
the third-party books for Pact Magic are... ok. But they do to the themes and feel of Pact Magic what August Derleth did to the works of HP Lovecraft. They move it away from 'occultists bargaining with eldritch horrors' and move it more towards 'regular fantasy characters striking deals with obscure gods and demons'. They inject a lot of arthurian imagery and meta-references (like directly referencing Jack Vance). The idea of expanding on Pact Magic is cool, but the books themselves didn't really do a very good job.

Binders are plenty of fun, be they the Tome of Magic variant, or the pact magic books variant.

The big thing in my experience is that while other classes (sans the warlocks bag of awesome) are limited to how many times they can do something a day or so on, binders are not. Hit and run, retreat and regroup, harass your foe and bleed them white before you go in for the kill.

From a story and character standpoint, and world building especially, remember that binding is Easy. Any dumb shit peasant can figure it out enough to get a level 1 vestige/spirit under their skin, and taste power that others get through luck or intense training and devotion. Also, the more the knowledge of binding spreads, the more everyone is going to risk it.

Had a small encounter in a game once where a fur trapper/woodsman village off in the middle of nowhere had a strong pact binding tradition, everyone knew the basic vestiges and the personality shifts of them, and kept mum about it when outsiders were around. Then orcs came down and the party got suspicious about this little village managing to hold out so well on its own. Helped them in the end, but the kneejerk omgdemons reaction was fun to play through.

>>20995214
Doesn't mean he's an idiot. Probably just eans he, his DM, or a munchkin-ing player didn't read the rules and did something that the base psionics rules says is impossible.

Most amusing and enjoyable game of 3.5 I ever played in was one where the DM went through and took a hacksaw to the class list. Thus the world was full of Warblades and Crusaders, Warlocks and Binders, the occasional Incarnate. Having a world where magic wasn't vancian was a lot of fun, and the DM went the extra mile even hacking out spell lists per god for the cleric and such.

Thanks for all the positive input.
Especially
>>20995185
for his google-fu.
Gonna be readin' these splats for a while but in the meantime... uh, Binder General?

Anyone design their own Vestiges?

The formatting is all fucked up for some reason, but the handbook is still very useful and legible.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook

Also, Zceryll for the best vestige ever.

>>20995306
I'm doing a rebuild on the 3.x system that's functionally the same thing. No vancian class, no spells at all unless they're duplicated by another powerset. Of course, then I got swamped with other things, minor powersets that were never properly developed, or fixing blatantly unworkable powersets like Truenamers..

From a character standpoint, I think Pact Binding would be sorely tempting. Just let another creature sit behind your eyes to watch, and maybe whisper suggestions that you follow only at your own will and discretion, in exchange for a whole host of useful, unlimited abilities?

Hell I'd take that deal right now.
Any character looking for easy power, or anyone with a spiritual bent, one who would see it as a duty to give sensation to the Vestiges in exchange for power. Normally the reserved scholar, he binds Andromalius and goes out to drink and party like no tomorrow, precisely because he has a passenger experiencing it all with him. Never mind the possible exhibitionist overtones.

>>20995367
I always hear about truenamers not functioning properly but what is the actual reason for it?

>>20995394
And that's why it's implied in the ToM that clerics and paladins REALLY hate binders. Even wizards have a problem with them. Because it's easy. No years of study, no grovelling and swearing fealty to a specific entity, just a few minutes effort scratching out a symbol and some basic manners and haggling, and you can breathe fire, or punch holes in trolls, or read minds. There's a reason the Pact Magic chapter also includes a Witch Hunter PrC..

>>20995478
I like the idea of Pact Magic as the Great Equalizer.

Commoners can learn it, and put up a fight against their would-be overlords.

>>20995478
I am now picturing a binder led revolution based upon empowering the hungry masses. Cooperative pact ceremonies where they all work together to trace out a twenty foot seal and haggle as a group. People with obvious Pact Signs standing on rooftops decrying the upper class and screaming up with the proletariat.
Binding instructions scrawled like graffiti on alley walls in clear violation of the laws against it.

Thank you.

>>20995476

Truenamers must pass a skill check to affect something with an utterance. I don't remember the full equasion off the top of my heand, but one part of it was 2*the targets HD.

Which basically means that the DCs progress faster than your skill ranks, and at high levels you have only a slip chance of affecting any level-appropriate foe.

>>20995543
This would be a great campaign all of it's own. A Binder Equalist movement errupts and the PCs have to choose between them or the state sponsored witch hunters.

>>20995476
The Truenaming skill scales slowly unless you really really go for the magical items to deck yourself out in. Also the majority of the effects are rather weak as fuck and every time you successfully use Truenaming the DCs scale, making any subsequent uses annoyingly harder unless you really pull out all the stops when it comes to making sure your Truenaming bonus is Really Really Good.

They're not quite as worthless as people like to make them out to be, but the class by itself is really trying to gun for it.

>>20995601
Also, using the same utterenace or power etc more then once in a day has a stacking +1 or 2, I forget which, to the DC, so you will eventually not be able to say it without waiting a day to let it cool down.

>>20995591
>>20995603

Could even rip the plot straight from Legend of Kora.

Only more deep. You could have the leader of the rebellion actually be completely subsumed by the vestige. Or perhaps he's actually a cleverly disguised archmage trying to bring down the organization of his former colleagues.

Or, most surprisingly of all, he's exactly what he says he is.

>>20995476
The truenamer system works on a ever diminishing scale of skill checks in order to function.
Eventually, the skill checks become functionally impossible to achieve due to the stiff wording of the abilities involved. It's like a double fighter.

The only thing I would really consider adding to Binders would be some way to create magic items without spellcasting levels.
A Vestige, a Feat, a Prc, something to let them get in on the magic item creation game.

Truenaming is mechanically dumb, and they yet again fucked up an attempt to make a demon binding/controlling class.

>>20995647
Well, the beauty of vestiges is that they can be villains with their tendrils of influence everywhere at once without even existing in the same reality.

Would be interesting to have the campaign start with a scholarly Binder political prisoner who resurrected the ancient arts being rescued by the PCs and have them unintentionally allow the rebellion to even exist.

>>20995720
What was the first attempt(s)? Thaumaturge?

>>20995476
It's because of how their powers activate. It's a skill check. The DC is set at 15 plus twice the target's Challenge Rating (or Hit Dice if you're targeting a Player Character). This breaks down at higher levels. If, for instance, a 15th level Truenamer, as part of a party, wants to use his powers against an Adult Red Dragon (a level appropriate encounter), he would need to roll a 45 or higher on the check. Assuming the player maxed his INT, his skill ranks in Truespeak, and had an item that grants +6 to the Truespeak skill, and an item that grants +4 int, he'd still have a 50/50 chance of failing the check or dealing 10d6 damage each round for 2 rounds. Here's the stickler: That doesn't mean much at that power level. Most dragons can shrug that off. These powers are also still subject to Spell Resistance, and many allow saves. So, there's a chance it might not happen, then a chance for the target to ignore it, then a chance for the target to resist it. 3 failure conditions. Unlike wizards or sorcerers whose powers automatically scale with them, Truenamers are required to invest heavily in their powers to keep them on par with the rest of the party. There's no dabbling.

>>20995732
Thaumaturge, anything in the BoVD, hell the only halfway good one they ever did was the malconvoker, and its barely passable.

When you think about it, Anyone could be a binder. The blacksmith, the mayor, an influential merchant, the ruling dynasty, your family. It is Easy, it is Simple, it is Quick, and it is Power. All it takes is a few pages out of an old book, a good enough memory of the old rhymes and designs grandma used to draw, a nose for old lore that others think is better forgotten.
Witch hunts would be a simple fact of daily life, proving vestige possession would be a duty of the law. Misinformation about the effects of Pact Magic would be spread by the church and wizards and everyone currently in power, making it look more like demon worship then a deal between equals.

>>20995874
This lends itself especially well to intrigue and espionage campaigns. A syndicate or cult or shadowy cabal could even use pact magic to communicate through an extra-dimensional entity which simultaneously does and does not exist. This may even necessitate licensed Binders for the purposes of tracking down manifestations of and conversing with Vestiges. This is what I imagine the which hunters and the associated prestige to be, of course.

File: 1349410117953.gif-(1 MB, 176x144, 1346742017928.gif)

My players' hatred for 3.5 means I'll never get to run a non-core campaign.
I still love you, Totemist.

PCs as terrorists always seemed like an interesting role-playing opportunity. Shame my lot is far more likely to side with the evil empire and bring order to those unruly dissidents...

>>20995874
Now you're getting it. But what about the physical effects. Most vestiges leave a physical trace. From the star-brand on the left palm of someone who binds to Aym, to the ram's horns of someone who binds to Amon. But with is-information rampant, how long until any tattoo is taken as evidence of 'withcraft'. Red hair? Too tall? Teeth too straight? Talk with a lisp? Off to the witch-fires. There's a lot of room to build a very grim and oppressive setting here.

>>20996108
And the whole while the real binders have carefully perfected their skill and excuses to be able to hide the pact sign, trying to defend the innocents falsely accused, but never fully, for fear of the spotlight falling upon them.

>>20996215
You can't tell, but I've got a satisfied/smug smile on my face while I tap my nose in a gesture generally meaning 'You've got it.'

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We keep the ancient ways, we hide the knowledge in carvings on ruin walls, in books hidden at the back of libraries. The Vestiges give power to those who seek it, and there will always be seekers, thus we work to ensure that to knowledge will always be there, waiting to be found.
- Theurgian Scholar Tamsin, in defense of a plan to plant a book of Pact Magic instructions within a cloister of St. Cuthbert.

>>20996326
I love it.

So, is the idea that Clerics hate Pact Magic because it comes from a source beyond the control of their gods?

>>20996379
Not just a source beyond the gods, but one that requires no devotion or real effort. A source of power that could, if widely known and thought bout, call into question even the need of gods and the great game of souls and worship.

There is this one guy, kinda scary, but if you suck up to him and do his errands every day for the whole year, he'll loan you his awesome car. Of course he doesn't want you to know about his neighbor who has a car he can't drive and who will toss you the keys just for stopping by to chat with him.

>>20996379
Kind of. Priests know that their gods gain power from worship. But Vestiges... They offer power in exchange for almost nothing. If people turn to vestiges and binders instead of priests for help, healing, and answers, then the gods will starve for lack of worship. Further, many vestiges were once gods or godlike entities, and could be again. If the current gods go hungry and people turn to atively worshipping 'false gods', then the vestiges might actually become gods themselves and supplant the existing ones. Vestiges are direct threats to the priests' power bases. And other vestiges exist because the gods banished something beyond the reach of mortal and divine alike. For mere mortals to undo the decrees of the gods themselves is heresy, that they can do it so easily and without the assistance of any god at all is a slap to the face of all those who trust in the divine.

It's worse than science or arcane magic, because those can be attributed to the gods. Boccob, Gond, whatever. Pact magic is a direct message of 'we don't need you any more' to the priesthoods, and nobody ever accepts obsolescence quietly.

>>20996428
>>20996489
I love this idea.

Can a Binder stand against a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid of similar level?

>>20996991

Fucking nope.

They're pretty solidly a T3 class.

They can *maybe* push up to Tier-2 by using that Vestige that grants Summon Monster I - IX every 5 rounds, but a wizard and codzilla will walk all over them.

But, in a way, they're exactly what wizards were *intended* to be: A bundle of quirky abilities with a slightly-oddball user that can be swapped out as-needed, to aid the rest of the party without overshadowing them, so in that sense they win in the best possible way.

>>20996991
As mentioned above I would imagine the could not in a straight on man to man fight. The full casters just have too much immediate power. But with guerrilla tactics and patience, the right vestiges and very careful planning they could probably hold their own assuming they dodged or resisted the more damaging spells.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a spell resistant magic consuming vestige suited just for this kind of purpose either.

>>20997011
Closest would be Karsus. He's what's left of the Archmage who destroyed Netheril.

>>20997011
I'm pretty sure there's one that conjures up an Anti-Magic Field.

>>20997011

You. Stop right there, you just did something really stupid. You answered from the perspective of player-vs-player.

Now, I know the question itself implied that somewhat, but you still should not have done this. It gives the wrong advice, every time. D&D is not a PvP game. At all.

>>20997031
Something like that would be a pretty damn high level prestige. But if so, that's some potent stuff right there. Particularly since you can bind multiple vestiges at a time at those higher levels.

>>20997034
Where the fuck did that anon mention PvP? Did you know that NPCs can be full casters too? And intelligent?

>>20997049
No, he made a good point. I did interpret that as a full-caster fighting against a binder and not alongside one. However, I think both comparisons are equally valid because as you said, NPCs use classes too.

But any DM that min-maxes npcs is already being a dick choosing full casters anyways against equally leveled parties.

>>20997063
>But any DM that min-maxes npcs is already being a dick choosing full casters anyways against equally leveled parties.
No, he'd only be a dick if he did it on a constant basis to a party that wasn't expecting it/cannot handle it without DM fiat.

If the DM's made it clear that he isn't pulling punches, or if said NPC is some kind of BBEG or BBEG-like, then it wouldn't be a dick move.

That said, there is a bit of delicacy between optimization and "the PCs are superultrafucked whatever they do because this dude is like triple Batman."

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I'm actually looking at running a Binder related game, though indirectly.

I run several games at once in the same world, though sometimes in different time-frames. This means that some events in one game will affect the setting and events of another.

So, about 6 months back I finished up one game where the party, by being greedy mercinaries that didn't ask questions, followed orders as long as the money was in it for them (and there was a Lot of money in it for them) went through on some robbery assignments for specific items, trying to find them. If they went after a false lead, it would still be a reward, just not what they were looking for.

Finally, once they had enough of them (some of the folks were leaving soon, so I decided to expedite it a little) they met up with a group of binders and went down into the catacombs under the city they were in. A city founded by multiple religions, all cooperating despite clear alignment differences and philosophical disagreements. Run by the Seropaenean Order.

The party knows simply that they're to place the artifacts where they fit. However, what they didn't investigate was what the items were meant for or, more specifically, a part of.

TBC.

>>20997167
The artifacts, I'd decided, were part of an ancient machine, crafted by the trollish empires of old, before the gods struck them down for the hubris of attempting to create a god for themselves of artifice and clockwork.

writingonthewall.jpg

The binders have been communicating with their vestiges, working with them to learn about the items needed to allow them much easier access into the material realm. They're currently only able to affect the world through the pacts they make and the binders that deal with them, and while that's fine for getting a little less crazy and remembering what it feels like to Exist, they're looking for a bit more than that. They promise to provide for the mortals as the gods do, but to do so on even terms and with fair trade of pacts for power and experience for guidance.

The party of course hardly knows any of this and are only picking up half of it as they go; mind you I did drop hints but both the players and I agreed that the characters weren't the sort to ask questions at this point or any other. That was fine, but it meant they were playing a bit blind.

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>>20997167
>>20997193

Anyhow, so the party and a few of the binders get down to the catacombs below the city where the party had actually been before on a side-quest. The binders lead them to the back of the area they'd been in before, revealing a secreted passage further into the deeps. Upon making their way down one last stair-well, they arrive in a long hallway, well lit with lines of illumination across the ceiling above. There they start to hear a strange, artificial voice speaking in a long dead language, at which point the bard casts a spell to comprehend it, picking up the last of a message stating that the "Eldritch Vault Security had been Compromised" and that "initial defenses were activating."

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>>20997213
At this point, two chambers open up on one end of the hall, revealing row after row of bipedal, metalic, humanoid shaped creatures standing up from their dormant poses and clearly waking up. The party takes their one round to wreck them all before the automatons can activate, and make quick work of them. (lvl 10ish party vs 40 lvl 1 warforged warriors)

At this point, the artificial voice comes on again. "Initial Security Measures have failed. Now initiating Biological countermeasures."

And then the Seropaenean agents arrive, and all hell breaks lose. The party has dealt with these sort before, and have only ever triumphed through tactical choices rather than sheer power (numbers, stealth, and trickery). I used the Aasimar Fighter4/Paladin4 stat-block from the Tome's Tower of Woe, so they were a pretty solid enemy for the party to face, especially in numbers where they can heal each other.

Then half of those self-same agents are crushed in the next round as two, Large plant-looking creatures covered in thorns and thistles burst through the wall and into the hall on top of several agents and right in front of the party's front-liners.

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>>20997294
So, with a clear enemy Other than the folks they're used to dealing with, both the party ad the Seropaenean folks decide to deal with the giant weeds first. Several agonizing rounds of waves of hurled thorns, being impaled on spines, and other unpleasantness that these creatures have to offer, the BattleBriars were down and the party had retreated to one end of the hallway while the Agents retreated to the other.

In the mean time, the Binders had successfully placed the artifacts where they'd wanted to, but said that they seemed to be missing one, right about the time that an Inquisitor that the party had faced before arrived, UMD's a wall of force to keep the party from interfering, pulls an item from a bag that resembles the other artifacts and places it into a vacant slot in the wall, finishing another bit of repair-work.

One of the other Seropaenean agents is given another such item and rushes to the other end of the hallway to place it around the corner.

At this point the artificial voice comes up again, and the Bard then gets to tell the party that a "Slaughterstone Guardian" was being released after the first couple of attempts failed.

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>>20997371

The agent that went around the corner never returned, and the inquisitor waited for the wall to have a few moments left before booking it back up the stairs that led here in the first place. The wall of force fades about the same time that the slaughterstone guardian (eviscerator, in the MM) rounds the corner with blood on one of its several person-sized blades, a clockwork mechanism of hacking and slashing and cutting and dismemberment. The party has one round, but only half of them go before the creature. Their leader and party warrior moves to guard the stair-well for the rest to escape. Those that can buff or otherwise try to support him before they go; heals from the bard, buffs from the alchemist, and an illusion of the warrior next to him from the wizard.

With all of that, he manages to hold the line against the mechanical monstrosity while his team escapes, but barely manages to escape with his life. As the illusion fails, the party can hear the thing chasing them back up to the surface, and at one point ascend a vertical surface where the path down had been destroyed via a rope, looking down in time to see it sink its adamantine claws into the stone structure for a grip and continue climbing up after them.

The party dashes for the front entrance of the building, makes their way out into the afternoon daylight and keep running for dear life. An easy spot-check later, they notice that something is amiss even out here.

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>>20997378
Seems the city is in an uproar, or will be soon, for some reason. They start to hear the sounds of unrest and violence in the distance, and make for the fastest departure from town they can make, gleaning from others doing the same that the Seropaenean churches had broken most of their ties, and that the separate churches, temples and cults were now at odds with one another, finally letting their rage, righteous fury or simple anger lash out upon one another.

For it wasn't the Vestiges that were held in the eldritch vault you see. The trolls were not struck down to their base and barbaric state for simple audacity; many others have done such, or tried to make themselves into gods.

But for the audacity of making one they could be forgiven, save for the fact that it had struck at the divine pantheon, and they it, and lost. The trolls had created something so potent as to capture and control the gods, drawing power from them. They in turn struck down the clockwork gods creators, but were unable to free themselves from their prison. Instead, they slowly broke it, through the actions of their followers and events of their influence, and in re-connecting the broken pieces they forced a re-set of its systems and provided the opportunity to free themselves.

And when their freedom came, the reason for tolerating each other was lost.

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>>20997431
But again, the party doesn't ask many questions, so while I explained most of this OOC, IC, their party is somewhat still in the dark about all this.

Anyhow, that's how they came into the first game. Should I continue about the results in the second, or am I typing to myself here?

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>>20997449
I'm listening.

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>>20997462
Audience of at least one then I guess.

So, the second game is to take place much later in the world, well after the stage of high magic and into a more tippy-verse sort of place; post scarcity, heavy urbanization or at least enough to provide one very large-sized city. Permanent Contingent lights for street-lamps, flying carpet salesmen in place of car dealerships, and the players were instructed to make characters that would be either part of or working with the town guard (basically the police) on an investigation. They go check out several missing persons which have the peculiar links of all having happened at Exactly the same time. Upon investigation, the party also finds that each of the missing people, despite being from very different walks of life, all share one unique hobby.

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>>20997512
Each of the missing people has been playing a recently released expansion for a new MMO played over the magical internet. The game uses a combined mix of psionics and magic, specifically Telepathy, Enchantment, and Illusion all programmed in to meet with a carefully maintained psionic server where the game is programed, managed, and maintained so as to generate a very real experience for those that play it. Each of the missing people had been online just before they'd left, though upon inspection of the company's records, none of them were together, just all exploring the new content which has, for some odd reason, been non-functional since their departure.

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>>20997536
So, inevitably, the party decides to send a couple of investigators in to play the damn thing and see if they can't find any clues. At this point, I hand each of the players a very simple rule-set for character generation, point-buy, and 4 stats on a d8 system. In order to participate in the game, they must use either a character of their own creation or a pre-made one from the missing players.

Once inside, I had some basic maps and visual representations of what they saw, and could find in the central hub of the game where most of the social aspects come into play. They don't linger long, however, and proceed to try to check out the newly released areas. They are able to get access to them without a major hassle, but quickly find it much more difficult to log out if they try.

They lucked out and first picked the zone which was built around something I wasn't aware was a player's phobia And was the easiest rout to get information from a rather talkative NPC.

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>>20997581
So, since the player decided to go it alone, their partner having already logged out, he quickly finds himself overwhelmed by a surge of NPC clowns and jesters, one in particular striking the finishing blow, having more arms than any man ever should and using all of them to juggle various oddities and trinkets, finally throwing all of them at the player's avatar just before he's dropped from the game. I ask for a will-save and he rolls a bit too low for his own good.

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>>20997594
I hate clowns.

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>>20997594
Still, the character falls asleep and then is shocked awake as he falls in the prime material. He relays his experience to the party, but since nothing seems to be outright Wrong, they send someone else in to see if the same thing happens twice. With the second pair trying to get to the same location, the area is closed, but when they attempt to send the character who'd been struck down, the area opens up as it had before. It's much quieter this time, however, and the NPC's don't seem to be doing anything. They look for a while and find the many-armed juggler in the middle of an empty circus tent, simply juggling and waiting, and begin asking questions.
"Who are you?"
>"I once was a thief, but I took myself away from that lifestyle. Now I just...do this, really."
"What is this place?"
>"It's nowhere."
"Why did you attack me?"
>"Well you see, I am sorry about that. I was just rather eager to pass on to my next venture."
"What does ownership of this place entail?"
>"Well, occupation of it, eventually. For the time being, having passed ownership to you, it will accompany you for a while."
"That's...unsettling."
>"Oh yes, I'd imagine as much."
"Are there others like you?"
>"Not at all, there's only one of me. My Kin, however...there's quite a few."
"And what are they doing?"
>"They're looking for the same thing I am. The same thing you all hope to do."

>"They want to live."

I only got a chance to play a Binder once. It was in a simple game run by a nervous and inexperienced DM who just wanted us to have a quick hack&slashy sort of D&D experience.

No flashy world-threatening plots. Just some travelers killing monsters and getting loot and we were all cool with that.

So, I roll up a badass binder and spec him out. We have a few quick encounters and kill some worm things.. Then one of the other players starts telling me his character would be wary of mine if he could identify the type of magic I was using..

That player would totally be that guy if he didn't know his shit so well. Honestly, he was a phenomenal roleplayer and could quote the rules without error. At one point, he quoted the off-hand lore on a random monster, practically word for word, without ever looking at that book that night.

So, this guy starts giving me shit, because that's what that player likes to do. He likes picking inter-party fights and stirring up shit. His character this time was an ultra devout cleric of goody goodness who said he would murder my character if he knew he was consorting with evil spirits and things that are not of this plane (technically, all vestiges are outsiders..)

Next couple sessions are spent with me and several other players trying to find ways to obscure or make excuses for my weird magic because this guy wants to kill my character. No one else wanted to. Just him. And he was far better at making deadly min-maxxed munchkins than I was..

Eventually, he had to leave the game because of scheduling and I got a single game of not trying to avoid murder at the hands of a single player before the game abruptly ended.

File: 1349421828377.jpg-(264 KB, 791x737, 8740b5dc2aa58d78d3ec52f61(...).jpg)

>>20997662
The party goes on to explain their business; that they're looking for a player that came through here, only to find out that while this is one of the new areas, there are four areas that are Currently available, and four that have Already been shut down and are beyond their access. They ask the jester if he could help them find the people that came through those closed areas of the game, but he states that he would need to have known them to do so. They do however get smart and figure to ask "If this place is going with this character who you clubbed earlier, does that mean you're staying with him as well?" He responds that yes, he would be able to see what he sees, feel what he feels and so on, and it's not a big step for the players to figure out that this is probably what happened to the others.

File: 1349422204709.jpg-(217 KB, 1000x520, 1319517632865.jpg)

>>20997693
So, the party is somewhat split; half of them want to go investigate the other open parts of the new content, the others want to go out into the world and see if they can't use the jester to find the missing people.

They end up splitting, and so I handle the game first thinking it would be faster. Little did I know.

I'll skip the details. Suffice to say that there were two more PC's possessed by the end of it. They were still their own characters, but in the case of the Jester, he'd failed the save and now had a ride-along, as did another player who wound up mauled by a giant made of shadows, dust and bones. the third however, spoke and actually made a deal with a 3-headed Cerberus in a zone that had no illumination, which offered power in return for a pact and to not force himself on the character.

File: 1349422530256.jpg-(37 KB, 370x480, 1319418454503.jpg)

>>20997735
Finally, that was all said and done and it was time to deal with things back on the material plane. Since the player who the Jester had infected hadn't actually made a deal with it, the methodology was rather strange. The investigator grew an extra pair of arms, jutting out at the elbow, of which pointed in the direction that the party had to go. The player was rather disturbed by this, but quickly let it go when he realized he could wield four weapons at once.

Never mind that whole corruption thing deary, you'll only worry your head over something you can't stop.

So, they follow the hands to an old shanty-town, long abandoned, and look toward one of the bigger buildings. They decided to do this after the work-day was over, so it was rather gloomy by now. They find some torn up clothes, but before they can investigate further they're struck by a charging flailing bunch of bone-shaped blades with a torso.

File: 1349423088044.png-(624 KB, 600x579, 1317272231762.png)

>>20997767
Combat wasn't easy; the whatever-it-was tore them up pretty badly before it went down. They were finally able to look into the weird pile of shredded clothes and found the ID of one of the people they were looking for.

At that point the game wrapped up; and half the players wanted to continue, the other half not so much, and it hasn't concluded since.

The over-all plan was pretty much that the vestiges were released way back in the earlier game, but were only able to pierce the veil of the material realm at this point in time, and were trying to do so through interactions with the magical MMO to steal the bodies of the players. In addition, I've read the thread that >>20995168 and shamelessly stole the idea that if Tenabrous was able to get out and reach Orcus, shit would hit fans on a universal level, but didn't tell the players that.

I figured the players would get a kick out of realizing that they'd eventually had a hand in causing all of it with their previous characters, but it didn't get that far unfortunately.

Later edits to the content (since I run with more than one group) included one of the missing people doing an investigation of their own into the company that made the game, and a bunch of Tenabrous Apostates running the company and crafting the game specifically for these purposes.

I have always wanted to play a Necropolitan Paladin/Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal of Orthos.

Alas, such a thing is too high level for me to ever get to use.

Once was in a game where we stumbled upon a Karsite cult, played up as if deep ones almost. They tracked their bloodlines and heritage, helped out families for marriage contracts, carefully ensured new Karsites, and of course all the pact magic. Even had a hidden city that you couldn't get to without heavy magic or just the right vestige. Was played well for horror with implications of things like 'didn't your grandfather come from this area?' to the pcs.

I really love the idea of an underground society of Binders that are working together to supplant the authoritarian arcanodivine magocracy.

Bumping for Binders?

>>20995061
this reminds me of an idea I had to run a 'balanced' 3.5 game by only allowing Ranger and rogues from the core book, Warblades and Crusaders from ToB, and Binders and Shadowmages from ToM.

Could this actually work?

>>21001624
Yes.

>>21001624
Yes. You might also want to throw in:
Incarnates and Totemists from Magic of Incarnum
Paladins using the non-magical paladin options from Complete Champion or Complete Warrior
Dragonfire Adepts from Dragon Magic

Currently playing a Binder named Mukhtar Abdulghalib, who uses the powers bestowed upon him by the Vestiges to succeed in business. His name translates as [the] Chosen Servant of the Conqueror, and he plans hidden plans for the world at large.

>>21002483
Arabic names are great for that.

>>21002602
>>21002483
My next character will now be arabic.

Oh wait, I'm GMing next.

My next BBEG will be arabic...errr...arabyic?Arabyan? The fuck are people from Araby called?

>>21002636
Arabian.

>>21002654
Oh. It's exactly the same. Huh.

>>21002336
good ideas. Though I'm basically replacing the Paladin with the Crusader, but that said I don't think it would really through off the balance of the game.

Basically the idea was to justify it by saying to people who say "I want to play a spell caster" is to go "there is no such thing as generic 'magic' in this setting. All magical power comes from somewhere, and where it comes from provides you with a different type of power".

the only problem I've found so far is is makes access to healing magic kinda hard.

>>21002736
Good, no "Res's are so cheap and ez!"

Make them fear for their mortality.

Also, healin pots and such.

>>21002636
Hint: Abd-al, sometimes transliterated as 'Abdul', means '[the] servant of'. With this simple beginning, it's easy to create names that carry thematic weight.

>>21002483
Let me guess; he favors Zceryll?

>>21002794
oh, I'm happy with no cheap res's.
But according to 3.5 rules you need to be able to cast 'cure' spells to make healing pots.
mind you I could just say 'fuck that shit' and have there be an NPC only class that makes potions and stuff.

Yeah, that could work great

File: 1349464692216.jpg-(19 KB, 130x130, dnd_frcc_20070718_ace.jpg)

>>21002853
Oh my, how did you know?

File: 1349464782163.jpg-(93 KB, 967x1500, Sha'ir.jpg)

>http://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/arabic

Go nuts.

>>21002958
For example, Abd-al-Tariq means 'The Servant of He Who Knocks at the Door', and could easily refer to a cultist who serves some Zalgo-esque deity.

>>21002958
I'm glad you posted that, because in my attempts to find something/use google translate for it, I ended up making google translate beatbox.

I need to buy some more attention.

>>21002990
You're very welcome, friend.

>>21002958
Speaking of Sha'ir, has anyone ever played one?

Do they function as well as traditional spellcasting classes?

>>21002986
I have the weirdest basit right now

>>21003032
You're welcome.

>>21002958
They are... okay.

There's a risk of the battle ending before the spell you requisitioned arrives.

Bump?

>>21002853
I've heard that Zceryll is the most powerful Vestige, and that she pushes a Binder into the 2nd Tier all on her own.

Is that true?

>>21003862
Well, that and the Far Realm is fucking awesome.

>>21003862
It's because she lets you conjure pseudonatural creatures. Conjuration is the most powerful school of magic in D&D, and the pseudonatural creature template pumps it up even further.

>>21004195
Ah, that makes sense.

Explain karsites to me? What's the deal there, pact magic deep ones?

>>21005072
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Karsus

>>21005072
Karsus was an amazingly powerful magician who stole the powers of a god, only to be cast down and reduced to a Vestige. He's more or less a failed Vecna.

>>21005208
>>21005168
Okay, that's karsus himself, but I thought karsites were a race?

>>21005358
Ah, my bad; sorry: http://www.scribd.com/doc/84009527/59/KARSITE

To everyone looking for new vestiges:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539322/lets_make_some_new_vestiges?post_id=33205
5894#332055894

Don't know if this has been posted yet in the thread, but if it hasn't, enjoy!

>>21005458
Wow, thanks! There's a ton of them!

I remember when I spent like a week copying all of the official vestiges into a binder, correcting grammatical errors and stuff. I wonder if I still have it.

>>21005546
You're quite welcome. While there's a handful that are either joke vestiges or severely broken, they're clearly labeled as such. All the rest seem to have a decent amount of scrutiny given to them.

Bump?

Can we go back to talking about the underclass-representing Binders who wage a covert war against their more-powerful-but-less-numerous magocratic overlords?

Because that was a good topic.

>>21007058
Someone above posted about how you could have Pact Magic rebels paint summoning symbols on walls, and I really like that idea.

File: 1349487894776.jpg-(35 KB, 632x388, naxal4.jpg)

>>21007058
I expect that the vestiges will be slowly corrupting the egalitarian binders' revolution to satisfy their own mad desires and ambitions.
What could the binders do to prevent it ?

>>21007238
Well, not a small percentage of the Vestiges were once gods (Amon, Karsus, Tenebrous, etc) while others were nearly as powerful.

The core goal of any Vestige would be to regain their former power, yes?

>>21007340
Don't the Vestiges lack the ability to influence the real world in any major way? How would they accomplish that?

>>21007440
As I understand it, they can influence the real world. The only easy way for (most of) them is through binders, though. They can convince those to act for them, and might find a way to get a physical or spiritual body back.
>>21007340
In the meantime, wouldn't they try to influence the binders' plans according to their own opinions, interests and worldviews ?

>>21007592
Granted, and probably.

>>21007058
Well, an important thing to remember is that as with any kind of activist movement or resistance it would have to be heavily centered around very persuasive and charismatic people. And, like any other movement, there is always the public face and the hidden agenda. And there will always be those who oppose them whether because the are staunchly against the ideals of the group are because they are aware of the hidden agenda and it is not necessarily in their interest. All of these slots in the template can really be filled in any ways you choose but the more central you want it to be to the plot the more complicated it may need to be.

Is there a vestige out there that makes you better at binding other vestiges? Like, if you bind this vestige in addition to others, you can use their powers more often, or get a bonus to your ability to bind them in the first place?

>>21007763
I don't believe so but the system lends itself remarkably well to creating your own as the linked forum shows. If you want to create a vestige of JOLLY COOPERATION! then there's nothing really to stop you.

>>21007790
Cool.

>>21007340
Let's paint an image.

The PCs are going about their ordinary adventures when they see the strange symbol painted in vibrant color on a store wall. Some people point it out or comment upon it but most people try to avert their gaze. When next the adventurers pass by the symbol is gone and a large poster is raised in its place reminding citizens of their civic duty to report consorts of demons for the sanctity of their very souls and offering a reward for any information leading to the capture of the wanted terrorists.

The next time the people are in town if they are very perceptive they may notice similar symbols on certain people's buttons, pins, cuff links and rings. Some of the city guards obviously notice these sings but pay no heed to them. Some of the guards themselves are wearing them. If the PCs ask about what they are most people just shrug and say it's the latest fashion statement or something to that effect.

And then the next time the adventures come back to town the first terrorist attack strikes. Perhaps an apothecary or an enchanter's or a scroll library or maybe even a school is lit up with flames of obvious magical origin. Innocent people are running screaming from the flaming wreckage. In the aftermath several bodies of young magi and that of a man marked by demonic manifestations and warped by hellish fires born within his own body are determined to be the source. The high guard arrives to immediately hide all the evidence but this only increases the whispers and the rumors.

The council sees this as a terrorist attack upon members of the elite scholar caste. The rebels see this as a captured member forced to defend himself against those who would have extracted all his secrets from him. The truth becomes blurred and tensions rise ever higher...

>>21007916
Yes. Keep going.

>>21007983
Oh no, the rest of the tale is there for you to tell friend.

>>21008248
Nnnooo!

>>21007916

The Elder Council begins to crack down on the citizens now, paranoid that any and every man, woman, and child is a conspirator planning when and where to stage their next attack. Curfews are put in place and any kind of propaganda or organized rallies result in mass arrests and being carted off to prisons by the dozens.

More and more citizens are driven to join as members of the underground movement as the very oppression the rebels set out to fight becomes more and more apparent with each passing day. Soon the membership becomes so large that a number of fringe radicals who would originally have been turned away are inducted. Men who barely even cared for the original agenda begin to gather support among followers to do away with peaceful negotiations and protests and to take open action against the noble castes.

Tempers brew and the organization becomes taken over by new leadership with a propensity for violence under the same banner that once stood for equality. Members that were once leaders beloved for their wisdom are denounced as traitors for being unwilling to take more decisive action to further the cause and decried as supporters of the very system they sought to change through peaceful means.

>>21008748

Isolated attacks and small riots break out in the streets as even the lowliest of nobles or those who have the appearance of scholars are attacked and assaulted or murdered brutally with little provocation. The guard is forced to become increasingly more violent and militaristic to protect the esteemed councilors and their relatives from these brutal attacks.

Prisons become overcrowded and unable to retain any more undesirables so with little else to do detainees are either sent off to labor camps beyond the city or else beaten brutally to serve as a reminder to themselves and others. The citizens arm themselves more through bargains with ever darker and more unsavory beings for their own protection and the city guard is forced to do the same in turn resorting to implementing more young reckless mages and cruel unsavory mercenaries into their ranks to bolster their numbers.

Eventually a councilor is rumored to have said that the only way they will ever catch the rebels is to burn down every slum in the city. Whether or not they had planned to act upon this statement, the rebels are forced to take action and assault the prison to free one of their captured leaders. The leader and other detained rebels are freed as well as countless ruthless criminals and the town is consumed in all out war between the populace and the upper caste. Fire is set to the noble's district, presumably as recourse to their callous attitude to the commoners lives, and soon the entire city is engulfed in flames.

In a single night, the entire city and all of its denizens are swallowed by the screams of hell fire. Only a single figure emerges from the wreckage clad in a cloak and mask. He wanders on until he finds a new town and paints a simple symbol on the side of a shop...

>>21007238

Some of them might want that, but there's no reason to think they all would.

>>21007440

The primary exception I can think of to this is the teeth of Dahlver-Nahr. All the ones in ToM have one, and frankly, they are in their own way the most powerful magic items that exist. Besides their regeneration, they represent an entity projecting power into reality from OUTSIDE it.

Imagine punching Asmodeous from the Material Plane. Now multiply that by infinity. That's what a tooth of dahlver-nahr represents.

Of course, the best thing about the teeth is that they give us a way to explain the plot holes inherent in epic vestiges being anything but an uber Orthos (they're not really stronger than the nonepic vestiges; they're just not wasting their power maintaining a permanent link to reality).

>>21008972
Fucking brilliant.

>>21009087
Remind me about the Teeth of Dahlver-Nar, would you?

>>21009150
Glad you liked it mate. I would have expanded it further but I wanted to wrap it up and leave it vague enough to fit into almost any scenario.

>>21008972
>>21008748
>>21007916
I just realized the brilliance of this. The culprit can essentially be just a single man. The one who starts the teaching of pact magic to the locals. The one who places the first symbol of a rebel group. The one who spreads the emblem about. Even perhaps the one who stages the accident that gets interpreted as a terrorist plot. He can be the radical in the crowd that screams for blood. He can mercenary soldier that beats up the innocent. He can spread the rumor that the nobles plan to burn down the entire poor district.

This is a chess master scheme of fantastic proportions and ultimately he can leave before the powder keg even blows.

>>21010156
The greatest trick the vestige ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist.

Rolled 53

>>21009150
The teeth are a set of binding artifacts. Ripping out one of your teeth and planting one of the Teeth of Dahlver-Nar in your mouth, it locks itself in place and permanently binds you to a given Vestige. there is only 1 tooth per vestige anywhere, according to legend, and nobody has ever been able to assemble them all in one place at one time, except maybe Dahlver himself during his life. IIRC this binding is a reduced form, and it's always considered a 'poor pact', so you get the Influence and the Sign, but only a single power from the vestige. It's still pretty powerful. The other downside is that the teeth don't change shape. You might have one or two that are human sized, and some that are half-foot-long fangs, and everything in between.

It hugely depends on your DM. I played a Binder and felt like I was a fucking nerf gun compared to the rest of the party. I even followed the Binder's Guide online for maximizing DCs, picking the useful abilities, etc.

DM still fucked me over at every opportunity. Felt bad man.

>generally was bound to the vestige that made me immune to poisons
>zero poisons used at all, ever, even by thieves, and in the thieves guild
>get into a fight against a guy that uses Madness spells and shit all the time
>switch to Dalver-Nar to null madness
>guy immediately poisons me with a dagger that does 3d10 dex damage and I am unconscious for the rest of the session

So bullshit.

Also he ruled that ability damaged caused to yourself by abilities or feats would not regenerate with the Binder that regenerates ability damage.

Just remembering makes me mad.

>>21010532

Dude, fuck your DM. I mean really, fuck him. The ability is cut and dry. You heal that shit.

Binder is not a big and flashy class. But one thing you can (and should abuse) if you have in-game time is the heal ability you can essentially use once every round. Every battle you can have your entire team up to full. You should be able to do something in your game even with the class.

Morning bump for more Binder revolution ideas. What kind of vestiges would a populace of dabbling commoners bind to most frequently?

>>21010532
>>21010928
That really is some bullshit. Binders have a hard enough time finding a niche to begin with.

Also the DM meta-gaming seems like he either really did not like you or else he was just an asshole on a power trip.

>>21013085
>What kind of vestiges would a populace of dabbling commoners bind to most frequently?

Why, Amon, of course.

>>21013243
What about Savnok? Some of the jack-booted thugs working for the authorities kick in the door to a poor commoner's house, inside the family huddles in terror, until suddenly three of the sons stand up, snap their fingers, and are instantly wearing masterwork platemail and ready to fight.

>>21013404
Also, his image of the bloodied warrior lends itself well to the victimized members of the peasantry.

>>21013243
>>21013404
Anyone strong of soul enough to forge a Pact with Grandmother Buer would be a pillar of strength for their community. Healing, healing without limit for the masses, not requiring devotion or donation. Simply being around the Binder would cause that horrible disease of yours to go into remission, giving them a chance to treat you.
Of course this impingement on what was the clerics personal ball game will not be taken lying down, and anyone showing the sign of satyr legs will be burned at the stake. This also unfortunately leads to a race war with the satyrs of the nearby forest.

If I recall you can bind up to 4 different vestiges at once at a high enough level right? And each vestige has some kind of sign or alteration that marks the binder right? What are some of the most terrible or beautiful looking combinations one could inflict upon one's self? How many vestiges would it take to no longer appear mortal?

>>21013500
Keep in mind that with a good pact and a little practice (aka, 2nd level) you can show or hide the signs of your Pact at will. So you only look monstrous if you made a faux pas during the negotiations, or you want to.

>>21013500
>>21013695
Yes, but if you HAD to negotiate with the nearby Satyrs in the woods, binding both Amon (ram horns, headbutt attack, and breathe fire) and Grandmother Buer (hooves, healing powers) would be a great benefit.

There's one vestige that makes you grow gray, feathery wings that hang uselessly (can't fly). That has room for some powerful imagery.

Chupoclops forces its binders to basically grow double-sized orc tusks and an extended lower jaw.

Karsus makes its binders bleed a lot.

Otiax (one of my personal favorites, especially since it's basically Yog Sothoth) surrounds its binders with persistent mist and fog. That's some powerful imagery right there.

>>21013914
could easily work the other way to.
"Binder? Whats that? I'm a satyr with a dragon in the family tree, nothing unusual about that."

>>21013982
I actually used that once. 'What? No, I'm a half-satyr. All I got from my dad was the horns, hooves, and trouser-titan. Amon? Never heard of him. Wait, was that the bard in Southport who tried to run a lightning bolt through his lute?"

File: 1349544647335.jpg-(256 KB, 1559x666, The Binder Rebellion.jpg)

Screen capped for posterity.

>>21014196
Would be better with some of the discussion for context.

Bump; this is great stuff.

If it wasn't for the fact that we have too many quest threads already, I'd be tempted to make a quest out of this. Definitely a great idea for a campaign.

>heavenly heresy
Dammit, captcha is getting good at understanding context.

>>21015282
That would be awesome.

>>21015282
Ironically this idea almost the opposite of my quest thread where the Binders are believed to be the oppressors.

>>21015489
Are you the classic binder quest OP with Brother Gregory? Where have you been, man? I missed you. Are you going to start running the quest again?

Indeed. And believe me, I miss having the time to devote to quest threads too. I will continue the quest someday for sure, though.

>>21015657
Thanks for the reassurance. Your quest is, in my opinion, one if the greats.

>>21015657
Bah, I can never remember what trip I used for those threads.

>>21015688
Here we go.

Ask a GM who doesn't know how to use a tripcode anything.

>>21015704
I was wondering if there was anparticular place that had recorded all the exact speciics of the vestiges you used in your quest. Googledocs, maybe?

>>21015704
Do you have any advice for a player who's interested in playing a Binder? I've been intrigued for a while, but it looks like an awful lot of bookkeeping, which is something that I try to avoid.

>>21016649
Take a note from 4th edition. Get some note card and scribble down te name of a vestige, it's sign and influence, and the powers it offers. Do that for each vestige your character has access to. Then on a given day just pull out which vestiges the character will bind and set them next to your character sheet. Instant reference of what's available.

You can also jot down notes on important features that migh come up later like which cover story you used in which city to explain your powers or appearance.

>>21017007
Oh, good idea.

I've got some note cards handy, too.

Thanks!

Protip: a Factotum that's taken Pact Binding feats is fucking terrifying.

>>21019241
Oh, yeah, they would be. And it's not even really a feat-tax, since what else but Font of Inspiration would you be taking?

>>21019297
>Taking Pact Magic feats.
>Not just playing a Binder and taking a one-level dip in Factotum.

>>21019378
Good point. It's the best one level dip in the game.

>>21019297
The 'infinite action' trick with factotum doesn't work because the extra-action class ability can only be used once per round. Just want to throw that out there. Lots of people forget that.

But a binder/factotum combo can be pretty brutal. I'm toying with a warlock/binder combo at the moment that looks promising. It just screams 'cultist of the Outer Gods'.

>>21019583
Each of those classes is so versatile and flavorful on its own... You could have a whole party choose from those two classes and might end up with no two being remotely similar.

>>21019583
Ayup, thus making investing all of your feats in Font of Inspiration a bad idea. So put them in Pact Magic instead! And who better than a Factotum to discover the deals and the Vestiges behind them?

Here are all of the normal Vestiges:
>http://therafim.wikidot.com/vestiges

And here are all of the Vestiges that were released later, in various other sources:
>http://www.scribd.com/doc/38835505/Tome-of-Magic-Additional-Vestige-Collection-v2-1-2

>>21019583
If you're dm is cool, see about refluffing and doing a slight change to the anima mage, then tie the two together.

>>21020208
How so?

>>21020282
It's a prestige class based around arcane casting and pact binding, and exploiting vestiges for power.
Aside from upping soul binding and arcane casting every level, you get a few toys that could translate well to a warlock user.
Exploit Vestige: Instead of sacking a granted ability to gain a spell slot, make it sack one (or two, or all, I'm not so good on balancing things) of the abilities for an invocation known for the day.
Vestige Metamagic: Instead of metamagic feats, make them apply like the sudden meta-feats to invocations. So drop a vestiges abilities to maximize an eldritch blast, or still a fell flight while grappeled, and so on.
Vestige Casting: This ones a bit harder, cause getting a free stilled/silent/immediate action spell once a day is a life saver. Maybe make it an auto still/silence/quicken on an invocation once a day or some such.

It's more for the flavor and proper meshing of soulbinding and invocations, but I think it would work really well.

>>21020380
Ahh, cool.

Thanks.

>>21020398
Welcome, was one of the first things I did when I picked up tome of magic, convinced my Dm to let me play it without any edits, just the measly init bonus and full casting/binding progression. Was a lot of fun and having such a grab bag of at will abilities that never ran out, such a breath of fresh air after playing other casters.

Someday will convince someone to let me play the same, but with a warforged. He'll just keep going and going and going...

So how does one BECOME a vestige? Is becoming a vestige some sort of punishment or is something some cult leaders aspire to? If it results in your expulsion from reality what would there be to gain from it? Or is it that someone desperately wants to get his hands on something ELSE the gods banished from reality?...

>>21021047
No, it's definitely something that you don't want to happen to you.

>>21021173
Oh... Okay then...

Might still work for a BBEG's insane plot though. Although even if he succeeded he would need a hell of a follow-up plan to actually use whatever it was he found in the void.

This would be interesting because even if he succeeded the campaign would still end with him disappearing from reality. The PCs would be left to wonder just what it was that he had accomplished. What had he bought with the trail of blood and atrocity he had left behind him to reach this point?

>>21021217
I mean, it's really something that you don't want to happen. Sure, you're 'immortal', but in order to affect any influence on the world you're entirely at the mercy of the people that summon and bind you, and even then you can exert only the barest of influence on them.

Mukhtar Abdulghalib, here.

I'm going to take a page from your ideas and have him start teaching other people how to make Pacts.

The revolution has begun.

>>21024037
I am a man much like you, who's name is not important. But here I stand before you to ask you a question. Does strength and knowledge belong only to the elite?

Yes, says the man in the council. It is tradition.
Yes, says the man in the academy. It is the proper way.
Yes, says the man in the church. It is the gods' will.

I reject those answers. I reject their law and their studies and their gods

I dream of a world where a man is not at the mercy of those born into higher standing than he. A world where no one should live in fear, oppressed by the powers that be.

Join with me and we shall build this world. This impossible dream. Your life can once again be your own.

It is time to fight back. To show them we are not dogs but wolves. It is time for the fear-mongers to know fear...

>>21027181
>"I think I know the guy you're asking about. It's a long story. So, about three years back, my idiot son steps in a gopher hole and breaks his leg in the field one day. We haul him out, and take him to the local church of Pelor. We need him up and walking or we can't finish our harvest. When we get to the chapel, the priest there says he could fix him up right as rain, but that it'd cost us. The price he names? More than the whole family farm is worth. That farm has been in the family for six generations, I can't just sacrifice it. It's our only source of food and income. It's all we have, and I was planning on giving it to my son some day. The priest tells us to leave if we can't afford his services."

>"So we take junior home and splint up his leg real good, and we just have to hope we can make the harvest work while a man short."

>"The next day, a stranger knocks on our door just as we're getting ready to leave for our morning chores. Junior is still laying in bed. I open the door, and the stranger asks if this is the house with the injured boy in it. I ain't never seen him before in my life, but he says that if we're amenable, he'll heal up our son. I think 'Oh, boy, here's we go. What's it gonna cost us?'. He says all it'll cost is a flagon of ale, two potatoes and three links of sausage. A breakfast to fix a broken leg? We figure he's a kook, but what the hell. We tell him he can eat after our son is fixed."

>"So the stranger steps inside, and I swear to you, that's when I noticed that he had hooves. HOOVES. Everything else about him was normal but that. So he clip-clops over to where my idiot son is laying. We gather around, expecting a big show, with lots of hand-waving and preaching like the clerics do."

>>21027809

>"The stranger just reaches out, like to shake the boy's hand. My son takes his hand, and the stranger closes his eyes. At first we didn't think nothing was happening, but when we looked at his leg, the purple splotch was fading around the break. It took a good minute or two, but when the stranger opened his eyes and stood up, my boy stood up too and damned if he wasn't right-as-rain."

>"Me and my wife are stunned, but she goes to fetch the breakfast he asked for while I just kind of stammer. When I finally collect my wits, I ask the stranger which god we should make an offering to to thank for this blessing. And what does he say to me? 'Don't bother, sir. None of the gods helped your son, and I don't rightly pray to any of them anyway. Keep your offerings for yourself, or help a neighbor or a beggar. They need it more than the gods do.'"

>"Well, about this time, my wife comes back with a plate of food. The stranger thanks her, and sits down for breakfast with her and my daughter while my son and I milk the cows and tend the chickens. When we come back in, the stranger had finished his meal and left, thanking us for the hospitality. Just clip-clopped on down the south road towards the creek that runs through the woods."

>>21027821
>"I only saw him one other time, a month or two later. I had taken a large piece of my harvest into town to sell to the traders. I swear, it looked JUST like the man that healed up my boy, except he didn't have no hooves. Just normal feet like the rest of us folk. He was haggling with one of the traders. I don't even think he saw me. That's the last I saw him. But I tell you what, his words have stuck with me. I can't honestly saw I've been all that devout to Pelor since the stranger's visit. Just didn't see the point, if'n he wasn't gonna help out his flock when we needed it. I still go to the services, but I'm just going through the motions."

>---Farmer Johann, deep into his cups in a tavern one night.

>>21027827
I like you.

What thought would a society or tradition of binders give to the influence of the vestiges? Buer is mostly harmless in her influence for example, but someone that regularly pacts with Zceryll might become a danger to themselves and others from even faintly listening to her influence. Never mind if they become a Knight of Sacred Seal under her.

>>21028313
In a Binder prevalent society there would probably be some witch hunters as a law keeping force specifically for expelling more dangerous vestiges.

>>21028476
Hahaha, even among a class devoted to forbidden knowledge, there is knowledge that is forbidden?

How wonderfully quaint.

>>21027809
>>21027821
>>21027827
This is wonderful; thank you for posting.

I can seriously see a Binder as a wandering righter-of-wrongs.

Similar to a Paladin, ironically.

>>21028727
Perhaps a more chaotic good approach to the paladin. Specifically as a liberator or paragon of freedom.

>>21028715
Not forbidden so much as self-destructive. It makes sense that Binders would want to make sure that only the most qualified people bind to certain vestiges. Nothing is forbidding you from learning the chemistry or biology needed to make anthrax, but you have to go through a lot of schooling and certifying first.

>>21028752
I was going for a more 'wandering witch/wise-man' feel. He's not righting wrongs deliberately, he's just doing what it takes to stay fed while practicing his craft, dark as the churches may label it.

>>21028802
I'd only add on to that with him leaving little pamphlets or books behind so that the people he aids can someday aid themselves or others.

>>21029393
Sounds good to me. I didn't wan to include anything too preachy though. Like the guy in the story said, no sermons, just healed the kid, ate his payment, and left.

As someone with an interest in playing some tabletop games but without the resources to devote to actually being able to learn all of the rules/abilities/games, I live vicariously through /tg/ and learn the rules slowly and get inspiration for characters I would like to play when I finally get the chance to.

This thread has inspired me to eventually play as a binder. However, the discussion of binders being at odds with the church has made me wonder if my character could still be quite devout and to devote any use of his abilities to his god(s). That is, he views Vestiges (as beings who have been struck down by the gods and thus being reduced to a state of needing Pacts with humans to experience Reality) as possible tools to spread the glory of his god(s). A Vestige and its powers would be the same as a donkey carrying a pilgrim's belongings in his eyes. In >>21027821 , he would have said to thank whichever god banished the Vestige he used to heal the boy "for it is thanks to Him that this was possible" and that he only wanted food because he was only a travellor, not a proper man of the cloth.

>>21030111
Of course, whether the church/god allows this or not, and if he would only ultimately be spreading the influence of the Vestige is something that would be left to be seen, but at the time he believes himself to be doing the gods' will.

Is this feasable? Am I getting some part of the Lore wrong to the point of the character also needing to be misinformed/wrong to think that way, or can I salvage this with just a little bit of change?

>>21030111
It's certainly an option. Could even look at it as helping the vestiges to serve their penance to the gods they have wronged. Could view the void which is neither heaven nor hell as a kind of purgatory. You're a kind of vicarious servant of the gods giving a chance of redemption to them and rewarding them with a reprieve from non-existence.

What about the ones who are themselves dead gods? Or mortals who stumbled into the Far Realm without the gods' interference? Or things which simply don't fit within any easy classification like Otiax?

>>21030763
>>21030133 and >>21030111 here.
Were you talking to me, to >>21030148, or just asking a general question?

>>21030938
Just in general. Feel free to answer. There are no right or wrong answers here. I'm asking questions to make you think more about how your campaign will be.

Odd thought, with Chupoclops' ethereal watcher ability, and maybe some abuse of Savnok's move ally (does that work across the ethereal/material border?) a Binder would have a decent chance of interacting with Ethergaunts.
How would that go? Ethergaunts hate gods, but gods hate binders, soooo....

File: 1349648800890.jpg-(710 KB, 3105x900, ethergaunts.jpg)

>>21031615
For informative purposes.

>>21031825
As Ethergaunts are one of my favorite races, I can't believe I never thought of making them binders. The idea is very interesting and fits their analytical approach to the universe.

Has anyone made a Persona homebrew using binders as the base? Seems to me like it would be perfect with some adjustments.

>>21032092
I believe the option was touched on in the Megami Tensei adaptation threads, but left by the wayside for some system that represented things better.

>>21031825
Man the ethereal is a fucked up neighborhood, and it is literally right next door...