>>20005554
Elves tend to dislike other humanoids...

When an Elf dies, he falls. He decays, the animals take his flesh and scatter his bones. His body returns to the roots of the forest. Humans walk around on the ground. They're disturbing, like undead elves who refuse to rot. And they're twisted and hideous - their legs become disgustingly long, as long as proper elf arms, and their arms shrink and become crippled and semi-useless. To an elf, a human looks like a freakish elf zombie with disturbingly zalgo body proportions. And of course, humans come into the forests and cut down trees, and can't tell the difference in wild growth and a properly managed millennial living space. Best shoot the monsters in the tops of their heads with arrows.

Elves look a lot like humans, only better...

Tricky. Ignore the body proportion issue, and focus on human-like features. Bare skin enhances human long-haul endurance. Assume elves evolved to be highly mobile arboreal hunters, requiring the same enhanced cooling? Or that they came from the same proto-human stock as humans did, and so inherited bare skin as a relic of that common origin? The big eye elf anime face thing is probably not too hard to justify - large eyes for sight-hunting and navigating the complex 3D environment, larger ears shaped well to gather in useful sound (inner ear adaptations as well, though these would not be visible I imagine). The long flowing elf-hair is probably not practical, as it would swish around into their faces and be really annoying while they swing. Beyond this, they're an athletic species with a good diet and lots of fresh air and exercise natural plant-based skincare products.

>>20005561
Elves are wise and peaceful (unless you piss them off)...

So, probably a diffuse population - a much lower population density than humans can manage. And there's less need to develop the civilizational tools you use to manage large populations - complex governments and religious hierarchies as well as the skills for building things like sewers - do elves shit in the woods? Yes. Yes they do. They just hang their ass over a branch, and shit. Getting crapped on by elves is probably a real danger human wanderers would face. A sigh of total contempt the elves have for the ground-bound freak people.

The psychology then favors small groups over large persistent gatherings. This suggests a family/clan thing rather than a kingdom thing.

Peaceful is pretty easy, but I can't drill down into Wise that easily. It really isn't wisdom so much as the humans perceiving the elves as wise. With mysterious or weird playing the role of 'wise' sometimes. Perhaps they always seem - to human eyes - to have serene expressions and calm melodious voices. The expressions are because the elf is thinking about something else, because your human voice and human body make him feel faintly ill. The melodious voice is him whispering as politely as possible, because like gibbons and other arboreal apes, their voices can be ridiculously loud.

Anybody else want to play? Take elf stereotype and see how well it fits in with the tree-dwelling brachiation thing.

File: 1343062965475.jpg-(49 KB, 550x367, Tamarin_portrait.jpg)

>>20005570
Perhaps rather than long, flowing hair, they have large, luxurious manes, like some species of tamarins?

Like these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Golden_Lion_Tamarin_Leontopithecus_rosalia.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Goldkopfloewenaeffchen1.jpg

Of course, if we go with the tamarin analogy, that means that some elves - the males, at least - would also have truly magnificent moustaches.

>>20005570
the reason elves seem wise is because of how they understand the forests they live in. Clans of elves share information, and because they have long lifespans, such information can be both ancient and from across huge expanses of forest. Many older civilizations that vaniosh or decay are subsumed by jungles or forests, and the elves would recall in their oral histories how that occurred. They may not remember the horrible beings that lived there, but they do recal where, how far, and what might be a threat to them there. Sharing such information would be an act of generosity, and also help remove the humanoids from that section of forest and get them on their way. Hence 'wisdom' is simply diplomatically telling humanoids how to get away from where their clan is as quickly as possible.

>>20005554
>Preference for raw foods, as cooking is tricky when you live in a tree.
I suggest rather that they love prepared foods and value them because they only get them occasionally, while staying in tree-houses. This might be another weird elf-human thing: from an elf point of view, humans are eating luxury food all the time. And they don't even know it!

Also, lots of insectivory. Maybe a whole cuisine of raw bug parts combined with leaves of particular plants, sort of like sushi. "summerfood" also beetle paste, dried katydids, grilled giant ants.

Hmm, under the circumstances, bows probably won't be used as much as darts, flung with their long arms.

So people walking in the forests get hit by giant arrow-like darts, quite often made out of poisonous wood like yew or mistletoe.

>>20005613
Depends on whether they do much fighting on the boundaries of their territory, I should think. Bows might be more like harassment weapons; you don't use them to fight in the forest, but to plink at any settlement that gets too close to the forest.

The Arcane Libraries of Elvish Ancient Wisdom are carved into the trunks of certain trees. A tree that has been made into a library is considered sacred and sacrosanct, and are to be defended from outside attack. The balance between using the tree to record history and damaging the environment is often one that creates strife in Elvish society, as both points of view have defenders.

There's good metaphor there - carve too deep, and you kill the tree. A parable about dangerous knowledge perhaps?

Just as they don't have any problem using tree parts for weaponry, or living places, they don't share a death taboo, using Elven bones for tools and decoration.

Why go dig in the ground for rocks, when you can use your grandfather's sharpened knucklebones?

>>20005613
maybe... any maybe the elves carefully cultivate/cut "bolt holes" through the branches, making sight-lines for bow-sniping.

You never can be sure of that shaft of light in the middle of the forest clearing is just beautiful... or secretly deadly.

>>20005659
Using ancestral bones as tools I could see as a religious/cultural kinda thing... literal family heirlooms. Sacred/blessed items, imbued with the spirit of the ancestor.

Given they'd lack the smiths and smithies and forges (or they'd uncommon for general use) they probably trade for finished metal goods rather than for raw metals. They'd not be incapable of working the stuff, but it would mean a fairly big departure for them.

Much of our densely populated areas were once heavily forested - forests were cleared for lumber and to open up farming space. If the forests had ingenious and aggressive defenders - the ordered home-forests anyhow - arboreal elves might act as a limiter on easy human expansion off the savannahs.

If you want lumber or a safe passage through a home-forest, then you pay the elves. Need to put masts on your ships? Pay the elves. Building fortifications? Pay the elves. Or, pay the elves to not allow your neighbors passage through the forests.

To stop humans from just marching in and burning and cutting, elves are going to have to be sort of badass - and ruthless as shit in battle. Probably no cultural prohibition about taking care of the troublesome leadership. Elf assassins see high towers and high walls as an invitation, not a barrier.

You can have special trade-clearings in the forest.

Imagine a session of barter with elves, going a bit like this: A caravan follows the only clear forest path into a clearing. The merchants unload their goods, and withdraw. The elves descend from the treetops and inspect the merchandise, then deposit their own contribution - woven artifacts, jars of precious spices, plants, that sort of thing. Then the elves withdraw.

Then the merchants come back and inspect the value of the elves' craft. If they think the elves need to pay more for what the humans have brought, they remove as much of their own merchandise as they want, making the statement "the amount we're leaving behind in this clearing is the same worth as the amount of stuff you've left".

Then the elves come back and, if they are willing to pay a higher price, deposit more stuff.

Back and forth it goes until both parties are happy with the amounts offered, and take it.

Given the upper arm strenght involved in brachiation, and the gains in reach, the old Elves as swordsmen thing does work.

Probibly more machete like blades than the classic light blades they traditionaly favour. As much a tool as a weapon, its a lever, a hammer, a fleching tool and branch cutter, a vital part of what makes an elf a funtional adult. It is the means by which the kill is bucherd, the bow shaped, the home built.

Perhaps more, the hilt, the scabbard, the way an elf wears it on their harness, all speak volumes, mystic brotherhoods, clan affiliation and more.

To recive an elven blade, itself a tool by which the forest is subdued, is to be given the tool to live an elven life, is to be granted permission to subdue that claimed forest.

Also now I think on it, not a casual thing to make as an elf. They need to trade for metal, they need to fell trees for fuel to forge it. An elven smith will need to give up the nomadic life because he cant carry the tools of a forge, meaning more solitary life, a life half way to the other, the enemy. But redolent with symbolism, giving up the forest so others can live more comfortably in it, taming iron by an offering of wood. Elven jewellery is prised, but smiths make it mainly to hone skills used in blade craft, to stay sane in long spans of isolation.

Sacred pariah status? Or more like hermits? either way,
with the rarity and value of metal in elven society, such blades could be storied heirlooms as well, both among elves and among those the blades are gifted to.

>>20005726
I like the idea of elven smiths as mystical hermits. Perhaps they are the ones inhabiting the forest caves while the rest of the elves live in the trees.

In spirit they are abandoning the living, yielding, nomadic way of life for one that is hard and rigid like the steel they forge.

There are plenty of dead trees in a forest. It is from them that the cave-hermit smiths gain their fuel. But as trees do not die often, a smith saves his fuel whenever possible, and forging a blade is a rare thing.

So, despite not having a big industrial culture, the examples of metalwork they produce are highly refined by eccentric masters who make huge sacrifices to pursue the art. Mystical weirdos. Eccentric characters. In Elven folk stories, it would be the Smith who imparts mystical wisdom, but usually via mischief and irascibility. A hunter might break his blade, and see a smith to get it mended, and the smith sets for him three seemingly arbitrary and dangerous tasks to accomplish - all of them being much easier had his blade been repaired.

And you know what that implies about the means of GETTING a blade? That's right, first you have to demonstrate your worthiness to the hermit-smith.

They're basically the forest equivalent of those monks who meditate on top of mountains and who can teach you the secrets of kung fu, but only if you can execute a seven-day-long bow in front of their little hut to show your determination and iron will.

>prehensile feet
>bows
www.youtube.com/watch?v=re4Mff7FhNc
+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4muBipy9-Q
= WIN

>>20005554
Yeah, I'm going to need a source on that.

elven smiths are in caves... on the ground... where the dead fall.

Infact a smithy in its earthen bier, with its coppices for charcoal burning around might be the most stable unit of elven culture. Familes come and go though the forest, but a smithy eternally renewed by a succession of students is stable. And indeed a smith can wield considerable power over nearby families with control over the supply of blades.

Might see them becoming tied to the dead, to mourning and rituals of such, with it becoming traditional that a widow or widower offers themself to an unwed smith as spiritual spouse. Iron as blood metal, tool of predation and war, smiths as keepers of the forest floor and thus the dead.

Blades as heirlooms, what of an elf's last duty to the race is to be renderd down, their bone-ash strengthening iron, creating steel?

Smiths as keepers of death, hunting and warfare, sitting upon wealth. It fits the norse idea of the svartalfar, elves dark from the soot of their forges.

>>20005811
So the elven smith becomes like a shaman - an intercessor between the world of the living and the dead. Soot-dark. Touched by the Otherworld.

A crippled elf who can no longer climb might seek a smith to apprentice with - the crippled smith has more great mythological resonance. There's a really good novel there - the young elf boy seeking the smithy that will take him in after he loses a hand.

smiths were threated as magicians and lived outside of the village(because they warked with fire and everything was made out of wood) in early human societys anyway so its nothing revolutionary, the real question is - where they get the iron from?

>>20005811
Not just bone-ash, but blood-iron as well. though small, there is iron in blood that can be drawn out, though it is difficult and time-consuming to do. Of course this would mean a common longsword with be from the death of many, many individuals, even if the iron is only partly blood-made.

Part of funereal rites could be a reforging of the family blade, to up its blood-iron ratio. Could also make up the numbers with blood from kills, the stag, the forest cat and so on. Thus an Elven blade becomes simultaneously a distillation of the forest, and a sign of how the elf is one with the forest, coequal with the beasts he kills.

I just had a flash of an elven warrior drawing his sword and going "Lo, here do I hold my father. Lo, here do I hold my mother and my sisters and my brothers. Lo, here do I hold the line of my people back to the beginning!"

Human forestry is focused on extracting wood for lumber, and orchard design is about maximizing one fruit crop, with access from the ground. I think it might be possible for a naive human to walk into an elf-forest and think it was simply a wild place. Deer eat acorns as much as pigs do. Mast trees (nut-bearers like oak and hickory and beech) often produce large surpluses though, so I think both might be tolerated within the forest. Fruit eaters like monkeys and birds and bats would be a concern, probably tolerated but also controlled. Huge flocks a la passenger pigeons could be a problem.

Being treedwellers, I imagine it would change perceptions of the world a fair bit. Humans tend to think horizontally ( when was the last time you looked up without having a obvious need to? ). These Elves would think more three-dimensionally, and be a lot more aware of the things they cant immediately see ( stuff hidden behind trees and leaves and such ). I can imagine them being great at what humans would think of as trick shots - firing at a target moving behind cover, because they can predict when they will break cover, or shooting whilst swinging upside down whilst moving at speed through the canopy.

It would mean though that they would have a hard time with human military tactics. Imagine a roman style testudo formation. Effectively immune to the ranged attacks of the elves. Also, massed archers firing sky-darkening volleys would be something they might not understand. Working in formation just wouldn't come naturally to them. I can see a human force defeating them by moving slowly through a forest, slashing and burning. As the forest falls, the cleared land becomes good for the attacker, poor for the elves.

In skirmish warfare in forest ( or possibly even dense city environments ), they would be really effective. Basically swarming over an enemy, doing damage and returning to cover or inaccessible locations before the enemy has a chance to adequately respond.

As to the chances of humans against these Elves militarily, remember that being brachiating their upper body strength would be several times that of humans. They could fire arrows with a force capable of puncturing armour. Also they'd be able to twist human's heads off, like the Great Apes are, which would probably them rather feared by pretty much everyone with regard to to-the-death fighting and unarmed melee combat.

>>20005838
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron

>>20005883
Now I'm pondering how frightening it'd be to fight these elves in their home territory. You're part of a small squad of soldiers heading into the forest. The trees above you are full of rustling noises, but it's dark, and the mottled shadows mean you can't tell if that's an elf or just trick of the light. (Elf hair is totally mottled in camouflage patterns - broken stripes of light and dark, hard to focus on in poor light.) Suddenly, there's a scream. You turn around, and the last you see of Private Jenkins is him vanishing _upwards_ into the canopy. They're not going to waste perfectly good protein, after all.

File: 1343065824050.jpg-(163 KB, 688x495, 1333274590054.jpg)

>This thread
Hey OP. Yeah you, the brilliant motherfucker who started all this. High five bro. Highest of fives, in fact.
Polite sage for lack of contribution.

>>20005911
In turn, however...
Humans can benefit from good relations with the elves - access to trade in wood and elf-made goods, and reliable borders you can trust won't be aggressively expanded by an enemy. Get ambitious, get delusions of empire, and things could get ugly... but given the Elven longview, I can't help think that they're not going to be looking out for something like this. And just as they might cut down a diseased tree to save the forest, they might arrange the collapse of a local human kingdom to prevent it getting to the point where it might threaten them.

>>20005914

source on image?

I'm thinking about some of the stuff upthread more, specifically if one were to run with both the blacksmiths-as-crazed-hermits-in-caves and prehensile feet traits for these elves.. Would that mean that their smithies would be caves with elaborate sets of rafters from which they hang as they forge blades with their feet? Possibly, instead of using hammers, using a sort of shot put-sized ball of iron with a flat bit?

Or, if they use their arms to smith, what implications does their massive arm strength have on the quality of their blades? Presumably if you're swinging your body around all day for years and years, you can swing a hammer pretty damn hard.

>>20005943
Considering smithing is primarily strength-focused, I'd say their arms are used to craft the blades, though they can be wielded by either hand or foot.

If the hands and feet are similar in size, then they have two use cases - swing from branch to branch while grasping a machete in your foot, or stand on a branch (or even the ground) with one in your hand. One has the comfort of full brachiating maneuvers, while the other has the power of your full brute strength. Mobility versus might.

>>20005939
Yumekui Merry, aka Dream Eater Merry. Damn good mango. Also, instead of just saging for no content, would anyone mind if I attempted some writefaggotry? Perhaps from the perspective of a human lost in the woods, or a trade caravan or some such?

Wwhere is that from op?

>>20005983
no idea where the pic's from, got it off /tg/ ages ago.

An idea with regards to the bows. There might be many types of bows for many different needs. The ones that human think are big longbows are really Warbows. They look huge because they are, they are designed to be used not with two hands, but with two hand and two feet, utilizing the whole body. you sit on a branch to use it, gripping the stave with your toes. Normally this would be way more power than is necessary, but theses are designed to deal with humans in heavy enchanted armor, as well as the occasional troll or dragon. Think of them as the elf version of a balista. Humans see these a lot because they look so impressive. Elves trot them out and display them the same way Humans trot out rank upon rank of spear men, or really shiny armor.

>>20005991
You got it off /tg/ on the 22nd march 2011.

>>20005850
Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

You are amazing. Describe drawing iron out of blood in a bit more detail, please, I want this sooooo bad.

Ok, give me some Elvish names /tg/. I need two or three for males, one for a female.

>>20005819
The crippled, the lame, the malformed, and the handicapped all go to live with the smiths. A few of them will become smiths in their own right, but most of them will be merely labor for the smiths. It makes sense. Running a smith is a hell of a lot of work and takes a lot of labor and people. Imagine these malformed, perhaps even developmentally disabled "ground elves" shambling through the forest, painted black with coal dust and soot, reeking of sulfur, lugging bodies back to the forge to harvest the iron and carbon from the dead. Dark elves indeed. Worse yet, would be those that have to go deep in the taboo, forbidden earth to mine for coal, away from the fresh air and trees. Some of them would be be half mad from it, twisted in mind as well as form.

Like hunter gatherers, the elves that commit the worst crimes would be banished from the tribes. These solitary elves have few choices - cast out of their life giving forests, they can try to eek out a life away from their people and forest gardens, or they can join the dark elves on the ground. Some may even go to join the humans in their cities, or the dwarfs deep in the ground that is both grave and sewer.

>>20006000
watch the second clip here
>>20005774

>>20006012
I can't describe it.

I'm not an elf.

File: 1343066749736.jpg-(92 KB, 500x375, Dnfqz8[1].jpg)

>>20005850
The bigger the sword, the more badass the dynasty?

Man... gibbon-like proportions and prehensile feet... glorious moustaches and camoflage-streaked mane-like hair that would make an 80's power-metal band envious, all atop the "traditional" elven stylings like angular features and knife-like ears...

I wanna see how these look!

>>20006000
or use a giant bow with one hand to pull the string and holding it with one leg , standing on the other

>>20006050
RELEASE THE DRAWFAGS

you do realize ther's really little iron in human body?
>Males of average height have about 4 grams of iron in their body, females about 3.5 grams; children will usually have 3 grams or less. These 3-4 grams are distributed throughout the body in hemoglobin, tissues, muscles, bone marrow, blood proteins, enzymes, ferritin, hemosiderin, and transport in plasma.
I would imagine its the similar for most mammals

they would need a diferent source with blood being more ritual source than factual

Not intending to be a troll or such, but sex and all that, how works? Those elves are cannibal , no? Then why not female elves luring humans to the trees to get butchered be the hunters in times of need ? Perhaps whoring the females in exchange of goods from the smiths? Perhaps those elves are matriarchal in a Chamans sense, like live-givers, and so they control the males in that way?
Sorry English.

Mayhaps elven blade hilts and decoration are not worked with wood (as this is the trade of the tree dwelling and the living) but rather carved bone as suggested by an above poster. You could also have elven mithril at some point in this, a material only found in these heavily forested areas due to some impact event from millennia past. Something the elves revere as a gift and a curse from their god(s) and a story told by the smith. Hell, Smiths could be the primary oral historians. Clans come and go and they all bring knowledge to the smith. He knows all the names of the elves in the forest and more importantly they all know his.

>>20006065
How about a writefag instead?

Svalt looked down at the ground below. This low in the canopy, one could see the flatness, the realm of humans, and the dead. He didn’t want to go down there. They said that humans lurked down there, down beneath the trees, where you couldn’t see the sun. Human were scary, always trying to carry off elven children to their dead trees, at least if the stories his sister Stel had told him were true.

He wasn’t a child anymore though. He was almost a man, ready to join the ranks of the warriors like he’d always dreamed. He could still see the Fire Dance where he’d first seen a warrior in all his glory, holding his family’s sword aloft.

"Lo, here do I hold my father. Lo, here do I hold my mother and my sisters and my brothers. Lo, here do I hold the line of my people back to the beginning! Let all who would defile our trees face the might of the line of Alf, warrior of the Sylvani!"

The flames cast fearsome shadows across the warrior’s face on that night, one of the few times the village would risk a flame.

I can easily see the elves doing quite well, dietetically speaking, even without needing to dip into the insect kingdom for protein. If you have nuts of some sort that are moderately nutritious and can be ground for flour and pressed for oil, you've got most of the calories right there. Then, add in arboreal hunting for birds, eggs, and suchlike and perhaps lowering nets into streams to catch fish. Of course, that's only what they start with. Over time, they'd reshape their environment just like humans did. There would be nothing natural about the landscape they'd live in, but it would be hard to tell for an untrained eye. In addition to planting and cultivating fruit trees, they could train berry vines like grape vines or blackberries to grow up trees.

No human culture has ever created a system of agriculture based primarily or mostly on harvesting perennial crops like fruit or nuts, but it isn't impossible, and that sounds exactly like what arboreal elves would do. Throw in selective breeding of plants, cutting and grafting plants, and you've got a thriving, carefully managed forest with abundant food. I could even see them domesticating monkeys to pick fruit and nuts for them (the ancient Egyptians seem to have domesticated baboons and may have used them for something similar).

>>20006103
blood-iron would be more symbolic than anything - smiths would dig iron from the earth for the most part.

>>20006109
I can see the smiths as being a surreal cross of outcast, revered mystic, and ominous priest. Awed and feared.

"Respect them above all else including yourself and your family, do everything they ask and do not offend them... and get away from them as soon and as fast as you can."

>>20005554

What's the sauce on OP's picture?

>>20006038
I doubt it. A large blade would be a hindrance, not a help.

The blood-iron is used to maintain the blade's condition, not to expand it.

Keep in mind that these elves are not hunter gatherers in the normal human terms - they have agriculture, they shape the land, they engineer their living conditions and use tools to control their environment. They just do it in nonhuman scales and scopes. Trees are to them a place to live, a security from ancestral predation, sources of food, sources of tools and technology, and sources of joy and fun - swinging and climbing and brachiating would be as much a joy for them as running is for us (when we do it right). So, being intelligent tool users, they shape the forests to serve their ends. No tree grows in the elven woods which they have not planted and tended. They might move about within their forests, and have population densities close to human hunter gatherer societies, but they operate on different terms.

Given their dependence on forest biomes, they'd be vulnerable to climactic shifts - more so than the all-start endurance animal, humanity.

Am I the only one who wants to know where the fuck OP's image is from? I can't tell if it's just a joke or it's seriously depicting an elf yoiking some dude and raping him.

>>20006108
The possibility for half elves are amazing. Unlike half orcs that are oft the product of conquest and rape, and shunned in both societies, half elves are relatively accepted in both human and elven societies and oft work as ambassadors for clans and human cities alike. When needed the elves will mate willingly or forcibly with a human to produce this ambassador caste. They will also deposit young halfbreed children within cities as an act of diplomacy should they feel it will be necessary down the line.

These children are also used to mediate trades between human and elf communities

>>20006108
They're not DF elves, I don't see why they'd be cannibals.

Going back in the thread to the notion of iron from dead elves' remains being used in blademaking - that implies interesting things about treatment of the dead in, say, wartime. Perhaps it's routine to hide or irretrievably dispose of foes' remains so they can't be so used. Or perhaps doing that would be horribly taboo, and only done by the most depraved. In that case, the respectful thing to do with a fallen enemy would be to return their body to their clan, perhaps accompanied by such of their shed blood as can be gathered (blood-soaked soil, say). This could lead to some very, very creepy first-contact misunderstandings. Picture it: a human who ventures too far into the woods disappears, and in the dead of night his corpse is left just outside the village along with a container (tight-woven basket? gourd?) of bloody mud. From the elves' perspective, they did what they had to do in eliminating the intruder, but did the polite thing by returning him to his people.

>>20006103
As most of the iron in the body takes the form of hemoglobin, a component of the red blood cells, to an elvin smith, the body is just meat. It's the blood that's important. Like spiders, they'd hoist a body in the air, and then bleed it, collecting the vital fluid in pottery bowls, to take back to the forge. The body... the body can hang or drop, the meat isn't important. Dessicated corpses, like the shriveled remains of insects in a spider's web, would decorate the forest. Perhaps the honored dead would be hung, dangling just above the ground, by the family and friends of the deceased, for the smiths to find.

>>20006203
>>20006108
I know we're /d/lite and all but this is too good an idea to make into fetish fuel. Please don't.

>They will also deposit young halfbreed children within cities as an act of diplomacy should they feel it will be necessary down the line.
This could be good though.

>>20006210
I imagine that retrieving the blood from the soil isn't terribly practical. As such, rather than literally try to deliver the whole thing (the tub of bloody mud) it's symbolic - a handful of blood-soaked dirt.

Which is still pretty terrifying, if you think about it.

>>20006012
like that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe_fN2LNQ0k (12:03)
but with dried up blood instead of the crushed ore

>>20006216
This would probably lead to some interesting beliefs about blood and the soul

>>20006216
It's also worth noting that blood is most usefully able to be extracted immediately after death - before rigor mortis. Right after death, it's a simple matter of hanging the corpse feet up over a receptacle and slashing its throat. I'm imagining some loud mourning bellow by which you call for groundlings immediately upon the death of a fellow elf, and they begin making the funeral preparations.

>>20006272

The drow or groundling caste, of course, isn't only the smiths - it's every elf whose job involves fire and cannot safely be done in the trees. The master smiths are revered mystical shamans, both craftsmen and clergy, and it is their apprentice-acolytes who handle most of the things relating to death that give rise to the groundling taboos. But other groundlings are glassblowers and lampworkers, distillers (you haven't lived until you've tried a nut-infused Elven brandy!), and charcoal-makers. The elves who make their living trading with humans are also often of this caste, though not always - those that deal in Elven goods are tree-dwellers who have to occasionally come down to the ground but never leave the woods, while those who trade for iron (because blood-iron is included in blades for ceremonial reasons rather than because it is abundant enough to be practical as the main source) and other human goods are associated with the smiths and thus taboo. (Yes, this means there are those who go out looking for human goods but mostly are after iron ore, and they are distinct from the ones who carry out those famous barters with people who come looking for commerce with the elves.)

Ground-dwelling elves also tend a few plants that don't grow in hanging baskets or climb; while for that class of elf these things are commonly eaten, for the vast majority they are the food of funerary rites, which enhances the notion that those who eat them for daily sustenance are essentially dead themselves. In addition to the classic Elven machetes, the smiths make steel jewelry as well. Again, the groundlings wear this, and so do the dead; in life, the ones in the treetops wear jewelry carved from wood (often with intricate cut glass and the occasional precious gem set into it) instead.

It's said that the term, "Fallen from grace," originally came from the elves. Of course, most humans would never imagine that it's a literal saying.

I'm seeing a lot of writing on the Elves strengths. Now, what are their weaknesses? We've got that they are pretty weak on land, but as a society, what are their mental or emotional weaknesses? We've pretty much established that they use every part of the forest, and probably every part of most of the animals within it. For some reason I'm seeing that leading to a dangerous flirtation with drugs. Many of the great sage-smiths have been lost to poppy-dreams of what it was like to swing among the treetops. Younger elves often use certain herbs to enhance their sight or to swing further and faster, but if you use too much, the withdrawl often sends you to the floor.

This isn't a new problem, nor one that will cripple Elven society; They've learned to regulate the use of such drugs to ceremonies for the hallucinogens and depressents, and times of war for the stimulants. However, it is certainly not a healthy part of Elven society, and many of the older Elves still remember the spring of tears, when a lotus crop many times its normal size tempted many of the young, leading to a full quarter of their number hanging from the tree of the dead.

>>20006108
On the subject of cannibalism and prostitution: I personally don't see the elves as cannibals or that they'd ever be willing to whore themselves out to merchants. Cannibalism I'll discard right out of hand, because elven funeral traditions have already been established and built upon in this thread. As for prostitution, the thing one has to remember about any long-living race is that they'd be very patient. If a human merchant brings an item into the forest to trade, but his asking price is too high, then the elf will just wait twenty years for another merchant to have a much more reasonable price. A long-lived creature will not need to be rash, and risking a female elf giving birth to some half-breed that can't even live in the trees would be a very rash decision.

>>20006278

While this is true, the smiths have the most respected place among the groundlings. Because of this, it is not uncommon for non-smiths who have proven their worth to be taken on as acolyte-apprentices of a smith. It is the best way to ensure that they are afforded the respect and freedoms they need to properly go about their tasks. Those freedoms, and the respect, can be somewhat limited, though. This is especially true for the elves who deal with humans. Those who speak to the strange, broken dead and trade for their goods, or make other sorts of deals with them are recognized as having an important role, but outside of being named acolyte-apprentices, it is not a protected or respected role in eleven society. It is fairly common if those ghost-talkers have to come into the trees for elves to bring them broken metal goods, or ask them to make them a knife or similar tool, just so that the acolyte-apprentice will be forced to say that he is not capable of it.

>>20006330
Other groundlings who become acolyte-apprentices are less subject to that kind of disrespect, but they are also less likely to be named as acolyte-apprentices, which can make That makes the trips they make into the trees dangerous and awkward, especially if they are drow (see below). In the most restrictive clans/tribes, the groundlings are not allowed into the trees at all. In others they are only allowed into the trees with an escort, who watch them like a hawk at all times. The most permissive clans/tribes will allow the groundlings into the trees without a specific escort, but they must wear some kind of marker to show that they are groundlings. Sometimes, such a marker is not truly needed, as many groundlings who have been to ground too long move strangely in the trees.

>>20006345
Drow and groundling are not quite the same thing. The drow movement is an attempt to establish a culture among the groundlings, something similar but different from the elves. It is not surprising. While smiths are a key part of elven culture, other groundlings are afforded far less respect, and are largely expected to just except their role as outsiders and exiles. The practice of smiths taking on non-smith acolyte-apprentices does not go far enough, especially since if the smiths apprenticed too many groundlings in this manner, it would risk ruining the usefulness of that role. In addition, the fact that the groundlings deal with humans so much more often (read: more than practically never) makes it nearly impossible for them not to change. So, some groundlings began gathering in larger communities, making clans or tribes of their own (rather than just being a handful of groundlings still kind of attached to the tribe or clan they "fell" from) and, though they still perform their duties for their tree-based cousins, they are no longer considered part of the same tribe.

>>20006381
that's scarily close to how I've been picturing them.

I picture the elven weaponry being shortblades, curved and wide so they can serve as both tool and weapon as needed.

Think of a khopesh or kukri.

I'm not really feeling the whole groundling thing. I prefer those on the ground to be comparatively rare, since there aren't that many elves to begin with. It also lessens the impact of smiths living on the ground or in caves.

File: 1343069271636.jpg-(25 KB, 1200x451, 187-iag28.jpg)

>>20006412
Something like this?

File: 1343069326514.jpg-(52 KB, 1200x400, 196-jca03.jpg)

>>20006412
Or this?

>>20006113
More writefaggotry

As he thought of better times, Svalt’s foot twitched, reminding him that his dreams of becoming a warrior were now just that. He had been out climbing when a tree limb had fallen on his foot, nearly crushing it. He could still walk, but climbing was nothing more than a fond memory now. The elves could not keep one who could not climb, and so Svalt was to be banished to the Dark Ones. The Ash-Coats, Mad-Elves, Smiths. He didn’t want to go. He would have to leave his sister, their tree, his favorite climbing spots, everything he knew behind, and keep company with a bunch of lunatics who spent their time in the Dead Realms.

“Not as if I’ve much choice now,” he thought bitterly, cursing his maimed foot.

“Svalt, let’s go. If we’re late the humans will just leave,” called his sister, already halfway down the tree he was in. Svalt started climbing down after her. His foot may have been ruined, but his long, strong arms were still enough to get him down. After a moment’s hesitation, Svalt dropped to the ground, leaving the trees for the first time in his life. His sister, despite having never left the canopy herself, was already walking away, as calmly as if she was a human. Svalt hurried after her. They walked along in silence, both out of the habit of hunters and because Svalt didn’t know what to say.

>>20006449


Finally, they reached the trade clearing. A human caravan was there, their moving trees, or wagons as the ground-walkers called them, were parked in a circle, with the humans wandering around, talking amongst themselves. The sight of them startled Svalt. Sure, he’d seen them from afar before, when they’d come before to trade, and thought them to look like strange elves, but up close it was different. Their heads looked close enough to an elf’s, but everything else was odd, as if they’d been stretched strangely. Their arms were the strangest thing, short and thin compared to even his sister’s thick, muscled arms. Their hair, too, was short and thin, some enough so that you could see their head through it. Their legs, on the other hand, were unnaturally long. They unnerved Svalt.
“Scared, little brother?”

“Of course not! A warrior doesn’t show fear, even of the dead-trees. I just...I don’t want to leave Stel.”

“You should see this an honor. You get to train as a Smith, with the best of the best too. He was an old friend of father’s, and reforged his blood-blade many times.”

“Ok...I’ll be brave, like a warrior should.”

“That’s more like it! And Svalt...”

She pulled him into a tight hug.

“I love you little brother, and I’ll miss you. Now wipe those tears away. We can’t let the humans see a warrior crying.”

Svalt did so, and together they walked into the clearing.

>>20006417
just because they exist doesn't mean there's many of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhF7wYpBBqE

Some inspiration. Keep up the good work. This thread is very entertaining.

>>20006412
The original suggestion was something machete-like, which seems good to me.

>>20006417
Agreed that they shouldn't be huge (though exceptions, like drow communities, may exist in some places). I wouldn't see more than a smith and four or so groundlings between a couple of tribes.

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>>20006412
Or more a polearm than a sword, like these.

Maybe the elven hunters 'fish' ground dwelling pray from above using harpoon bows?

File: 1343069965116.png-(35 KB, 191x512, tumblr_m3cqwijy9K1rtig63o1_400.png)

Spotted this pic on a tumblr where a guy was trying to make a race-concept of anthro monkeys.

damn near perfect for how I'm picturing these ape-elves we've got in this thread.

Drawfags, consider this your inspiration.

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>>20006445
>>20006426
>>20006412
I like the grips on these.
It doesn't have to be all manly machete. Here, you have shashka - a vine-cutting knife turned specifically to clan to warfare.
Main points:
No handguard, as it is originally a knife. The only valid defence technique is "cut the other fucker's entire arm off before he cuts you" - hence the blade will have to be light, fast, but as long as could be afforded.
Curved, so as to emphasize speed and elevation bonuses.
Curved or otherwise differently shaped grip, with a distinctive hook for a pommel - as there is no need to parry with that blade, you can afford to hold the blade loosely, with just three fingers, and let it "fly". The bent grip allows to manipulate the angle of the blade mid-swing.

That's what I think should apply to our tree-cutting, irregular-fighting monkeys.

>>20006509
Machete is good, but we can do better. I'd imagine Machetes would become thinner, lighter and longer if they were used for warfare for generations.

>>20006614
but these are not solely weapons, but tools as well. they must be multipurpose.

Like I said, more kukri than machete in style.

>>20006574

That one would walk on all fours, right?
There's no way walking straight with that high a gravity center is healthy or comfortable in any shape or form, even if the lil legs can support it.

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>>20006575
Hmm, I think a parang/mandau can fit more or less.

>>20006653
primarily arboreal, yeah. they can move bipedally, but not for very prolonged times without discomfort.

The muscles and ligaments involved in brachiation tend to alter an ape's range of movement. One of the brachiating tree-elves would probably move and fight wildly different to a normal human.

For that matter, I don't see them evolving the technology to mine and smith metal, and if they're xenophobes than they can't reasonably trade for it. They'd be using human weapons in new and freaky ways (swinging with their arms, one sword in each prehensile foot) or something they developed themselves at stone-age tech levels at best.

File: 1343070582650.jpg-(51 KB, 714x536, Sadfrog The Movie.jpg)

Dammit, I've been busy making a setting with a tree based race as unelfy as possible and then you have to go and make elves more like them, right down to the prehensile feet and slightly elongated arms.

The moment your elves become partially photosynthetic to the point that if they don't see the sun for several days their appetite increases dramatically to the point they'll freely engage in cannibalism I'm calling bullshit on all of you.

This reminds me of something I thought of a while ago. I like this whole re-imagining thing in-concept, but feel like it strays a little far from the genre.

Here's my idea: Nix Elves AND dwarves, replace with goblinoids.

Re-fluff goblinoids as nasty-but-not-necessarily-evil creatures that live underground. Originally, they lived very, very deep, in some sort of hollow-world paradise (as their tales tell it), but either left or were forced into the shallows near the surface. Society is egalitarian, with the different breeds gravitating towards some jobs because of natural aptitude, but nothing is enforced (a bugbear noble could by his weapons from a Hobgoblin blacksmith for a duel with a rival Goblin knight, and so on). They do the whole courtly intrigue thing, and are crazy-good artisans and craftsmen, making coldly beautiful cities that evoke the rock formations of deep caves; sparlking coral-like accretions and so forth. Their magic is subtle and related to the nature of objects; no fireballs, but swords that never tarnish and slice through stone, plus some magitech alchemy grenades/bombs.

While they don't like humans, they have an odd fascination with them and their works. this greed/curiosity causes them to do sneaky raids on the surface dwellers, stealing art, magic, weapons, and even artists back to their cities. They very much have the arrogant elder-race-that-looks-down-on-humans thing going on.

>>20006688
sounds like an excellent idea... but not for this thread.

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>>20006575
>>20006656
These... Actually look pretty elven. Tolkien-style elven, even.
I like it, you have my vote. What about Khukris, though? Will the wood elves have a use for an inversely curved blade?

Or perhaps, a weapon of the groundlings? It IS very good at cutting the throats of the recently deceased.

File: 1343070933003.gif-(131 KB, 606x383, David-Bowie.gif)

>>20006688
Physically, they could go for the whole grey hairless skin vibe with big bat ears and sharp teeth, but mod them slightly to be less hideous. Not conventionally pretty in a human way, but with a certain handsome, arrogant nobility. Goblins are slightly cute-ish with big eyes, Hobs have lanky, exaggerated features, and bugbears are hulking erudite bruisers with over-long arms.

I passed this by a friend, and he said "So...david bowie goblins?" And I was all "...Fuck. Kind of, yeah."

It's kind of vague, and I'm working on nailing it down. I just like the idea of thinning down the race spread in a setting while still have some classic stuff re-imagined.

>>20006701
Seemed in the same vein. I'll work on it and post it in its own thread eventually. Just wanted to double-check that it wasn't retarded

Is anyone archiving this? I've put it on suptg in the very beginning, and don't know how to update it.

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>>20006575
And the mandau. Generally I don't like the thing of all the specie having the same culture, but an idea for a relatively primitive cultere I have it's only the "old/brave hunters"(equivalent of a warrior) are able to own a sword (used to butcher the hunt, then they pick the best parts), the others hunters using "burned" and sharpened wood and bone spears (and arrowheads), it's a rank above nearly all the other males (only surpassed be a Smith or Chief) and the blade it's passed only when a warrior die (then reforged with a bit of blood iron?).

>>20006735
if it means there can be sexy hobgoblin ladies, I'm in.

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>>20006722
Or a falcata, more large and able to stab, also being a very good chopper. Perhaps the three blades(the falcata, the kukry and the "falcade" knife who pair with both) it's weared be the high class of some elves cultures like a symbol of rank (look all the iron I can afford!)?

elves dont have to trade for the iron - bog iron can be found in the swamps that are part of their forest kingdom and its not that deep - no need for extensive mining

Given that the elven smith is as much a mystic shaman as a learned metalworker I'd say their blades would not have a terribly consistent look to them. I imagine the forging process to be divine inspiration as much as practiced technique. This fits with the concept of storied, unique-ish heirloom blades as well.

>>20006881
you dont even need bog iron deposits - you can use peat moss
8:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beSDGVcmmdI

>>20006672
That... I don't know what to respond to that. I don't see a problem with technology, even taking into account the logistical problem with fire. Swamps and such provide some good fuel, and even if you live in the forest you can organize the production of goods around the shaman caste.
They could be pushed towards technologically advancing by rampant simian competition (if we assu,e humans, goblins and dwarves exist, too) and climatic deforestation.

>>20007029
Oh, and I didn't mean to come off offensive, I just meant that I have scant knowledge of the subject and would like to hear you opinion elaborated.
Sorry, brainderped.

I don't get why there's so many pictures of long knives and swords in this thread if it's about ape-elves. The most material-efficient weapons for conserving metal is an axe, not to mention it's the easiest to develop from the technology of tool axes which would be very necessary for forest dwelling tool using ape-elves.

Even beyond that, there are more references to elves using axes than dwarves in both tolkein and nordic mythology. The weapon of the elves is the axe, no question.

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How big are those elves supposed to be? Also, if we go with the big eyes, I can kinda see them as the fantasy equivalent of the Little Green Men: some night you're just chilling out and one inhuman face peek through your window.

Also, I think that regarding iron, humans see as a weird weakness what is simply respect. Elves don't go close to humans covered in armor because those are obviously legendary warriors. And they don't touch the weapons of their fallen enemies.

>>20007074
except we're not following myths, we're tweaking stereotypes.

How would this species end up effecting the development of humans though? Without easy access to wood anymore humans would have to turn more towards crating with ceramics and weaving, weapons would probably be just as sacred as they are with the elves especially for weapons like spears, whole trading missions would have to go just to get the supplies for a canoe. That is of course if the two species ever moved past the whole deformed walking groundlings coming out of the savannas and prairies where trees dont grow for miles and the tree-top dwelling demons who use poison and leave the corpses just outside the forest as a threat and warning part of their relationship. I like the idea of humans almost never, and i mean never, seeing elves whereas the elves see humans in this horrible light where theyre already deformed but they find their culture repulsive because even after they left the bodies hanging and let out the mourning bellow the humans left the bodies to rot.

>>20007029

I'm assuming their contact with humans is limited according to your own description (as our contact with shambling corpse-monsters that mock all life would be in a similar situation.) In their early history it would probably simply not occur to them to go finding metals and smelting them, let alone building a furnace. The resources for metallurgy would be scarce, meaning the impetus to go find them and develop them would be minimal.

Wood would be plentiful, however, treated and hardened to make a good club or an arrowtip. Stones such as flint and the like could be gathered along the ground easily, then chipped and turned into simple chopping implements or weapons. They wouldn't be as durable as metal implements, but the wood is easily available so that's not such a big worry.

Tribal warfare between two arboreal humanoids would also probably not favor armor on a few levels. First, armor would be less of a concern than mobility (light leather armor at most, or more hardwood pieces sewn into strategic sections to soften the blow/protect vital spots). I would see intertribal conflict in this culture as being more akin to conflict between Native American tribes - relatively low-casualty, with an emphasis on honor. If you add crazy tree shenanigans then counting coup would be more impressive, after all.

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>>20007113
Not sure if intentionally synonymous.

>>20007074
And axes would benefit greatly from the upperbody strength that define these elves

>>20007157

Now say this culture comes into contact with humans and for the first time realizes that metal can be forged in this manner. They don't have the infrastructure and they're killing humans anyway (in defense of their glorious treehomes), so a good steel sword would probably be viewed with some suspicion. It's a weapon of the shambling corpse-monsters, after all, who knows what dark magic or taint it carries? Some of the more fearless may carry it into battle - those young and strong enough to try counting coup in the first place - where the more experienced and cautious warriors would probably stick to the STRONGBOW or throwing darts with their inhuman strength. In comparison human archers are weak. Wiser warriors exploit range and ambush tactics, bold young warriors who want glory would be the ones leaping in to mix it up short-range, battling the demons with their own hell-spawned weapons!

Have we yet established exactly how they walk on the ground? Yes, I understand that they are brachiating when up in the trees. But on the ground, do they
a) awkwardly walk with their seldom used and terribly short legs or
b) sort of swing themselves forward on their arms, briefly landing on their legs, and then use their arms again?

I disagree with people saying the elves would falter in an open-ground battle with humans. Forget the fact they can shoot what is effectively a balistra as quickly as a bow. Just imagine how ridiculously large and/or heavy weapons they can use. In combat reach is king.

>>20007257
I'd say closer to choice A there.

I picture their ground-motion, due to limb proportions, as being almost a sort of gorilla-style knuckle-walk - they can move bipedally, just not for a long time or over an extended distance, so they prefer not to do so.

>>20007269
elves have knifesm, humans have polearms heavy armour and unit tactics

I feel like we should also be talking about what kinds of forest we're dealing with. There's a reason brachiating primates are relatively rare (only gibbons, I think) and they're confined to a narrow geographic region.

>mfw I took a class on primate psychological development a few years back, this thread is the only time that information has ever been useful

>>20007320
A cudgel is a deadly weapon, and an excellent choice when faced with armored foes.

>>20007269
Not to mention a male chimp can rip a man's arm off easily. Now imagine a martial art where the most brutal attacks rip the parts off the enemy. If an elf gets close and personal, you are fucked.

>>20007099
I like that respectful idea.

>>20007365
yes it is but not againts a phalanx- germanic tribesmen were known of the use of clubs but they couldnt use them succesfully in open ground against the roman legions ,its onyl the figths in forrests where the units disperced that they could evectivelly use them against single legionaries

>>20007207
That's a very apt description, but I feel like it would only work for the original contact. Human development would push them into the forests, conflict will permeate, diplomacy will inevitably arise, along the lines of what was pointed out earlier in the thread.
With that, the demon-imagery will be subsumed by the idea of useful, but unwholesome heathens.
Metal, on the other hand, is useful for fine crafts and advanced woodwork - while it is true that elves wouldn't need sophisticated tools to push off competing humans/wildlife, the first elven tribe to utilize metal arrowheads and knives for working harder wood would gain advantages over all other elves.
Think the cromagnon versus homo sapiens scenario, after the latter's tech revolution.

>>20007421
there's no guarantee "human military" equals "roman legionnaire phalanx tactics". Especially since those tactics only really worked in certain situations.

And I doubt any elf would try to fight anywhere they would not have the upper hand(and foot) unless they had no other options.

How apelike are they, anyway? I'm thinking mostly in term of facial features, particularly the jaws.

And what kind of clothes could they have?

>>20007436

Good point. I guess the question becomes at what point in this cycle the story is - first contact will see both sides thinking the other is some sort of horrible monster race, probably leading into an uneasy and tense ceasefire after both side realize the limitations of their current war strategy.

A setting where the elves haven't established proper contact yet would probably be best to highlight the OH FUCK WHAT ARE THESE THINGS aspect of it. If they're supposed to be standoffish but essentially peaceful (providing you don't fuck with their lands) then later on when they've had some contact would make sense.

>>20007074
>>20007192
Axes are good at felling trees, which isn't necessary for the elven mode of life.
Knives are good at navigating through dense vegetation, which is a daily occurence in elven life. Also, more efficient at the whole vine-cutting fruit and berry harvesting business. More useful tool in the long run.

Slashy non-parrying weapons also benefit from dumb strength AND elevation, which is tactically approproate for such treebourne fighters.

>>20007461
How apelike?
>>20006574
>>20006381
These are good reference.

>>20007471
Oh, I very much like your first contact variant, makes for a better story in itself.
The developed diplomacy shit would work better for more casual adventures, you know, just tweaking one of the player's race in a cool way.

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>>20007074
What type of axe are you thinking? I was posting machete like swords because they are very useful in move into heavy forested environaments and are good for butcher a prey. Perhaps some axe like this?
>>20007257
Like lemurs can be pretty funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-hOfFZKZbs

>>20007321
You might be the coolest person on the planet right now.
Tell us - how do we justify naked, pink-skinned tbrachiating apes that wear clothes? What sort of climate could produce them and what change could make them go all dressed again?

>>20005790
>>20005939
>>20005983
The image is from Elfquest.
Towards the end, when whatserface is one of the few elves still on Earth, and the only one not in hiding.

>>20007553
>pink-skinned

Why? Have we established a skin color already?

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>>20007574
No, I'm just probing for that particular possibility. Greater dissonance this way.
But I wouldn't mind if they end up other color or with fur.

>>20007553
Clothes are partly a sexual display thing and partly a "keep sensitive bits from getting scraped up by trees as we brachiate" thing. Also, tool belts, pouches, bandoliers and other things to let you hold stuff and still keep your hands and feet free.

I'd expect that on the whole, though, they'd wear a lot less clothing and a lot more bodypaint. As insect repellent, as camouflage, as an alternative sexual display thing that doesn't get in the way or cause overheating...

>>20007553

If we're talking a high-magic setting, the gods did it. I know that's a copout, but let's say that there was an earlier hominid, akin to cavemen - smaller, has human inteligence but hasn't begun building up culture yet, just barely figured out clothes. Our fantasy pantheon takes these early hominids and each god creates a new species from it, retaining the original's intelligence and general form, but each now adapted to its god's favored realm? This suggests another thread for taxonomically logical dwarves, goblin and trolls if we wanted to run with this.

For a lower-magic setting, I'm not sure. Last I checked anthropologists haven't agreed on exactly what in our environment caused us to suddenly develop pattern recognition to the point that we became intelligent, so it's conceivable in a fantasy world it may have happened during an earlier point in our evolution and then two divergent paths were taken while they were still at the point where evolution could have favored arboreal or bipedal development? Because of...a wizard? That one would be harder to justify and present even more problems if you wanted a Dwarf Biomechanics thread (because then there'd have to be a third tribe that fell in a hole and couldn't get out.)

>>20007421
Their clubs might easily be longer than the polearms the attackers wield. Let that sink in.

Secondly, consider that the Romans themselves widely employed the sword after the reforms because swordmen are more mobile and can better flank and envelope the enemy.

>>20007602
>fur

I dunno. We've established that they have wild manes of hair (and the males have incredible moustaches) in streaked colorations that help conceal them in the mottled-and-dappled patterns of light-and-shadow in the forest, but I don't think we've come up with anything past that.

>>20007680
I think he was just asking for justification on clothes, not on everything.

>>20007680
>because then there'd have to be a third tribe that fell in a hole and couldn't get out.

You'd need to differentiate those Dwarves from the Dark Elves, particularly since those words where originally synonyms.

>>20007838
>particularly since those words where originally synonyms
Were they? I thought I remembered Norse Mythology differentiating between the two.

Anyways, I figured Dark Elves would just be Elves that stalk the underbrush of the elven forests. They make their homes in the vast roots of the giant trees and tend to "crawl" from place to place on their long arms and short legs as they stalk their meals. Dwarves on the other hand would be straight up tunnelers. Maybe Artemis Fowl them a bit and give them some wormlike biology to deal with moving massive amounts of dirt around all the time.

>>20007838

Presumably dwarfs would be descended from the same protohominids that resulted in elves and humans. They would probably retain the powerful arms for digging and stoneworking, large eyes for low-light conditions but otherwise be horribly nearsighted. Pale because of the low light conditions. Originally they had camps on the surface and worked the caves, over generation the camp moved into the mouth of the cave, over longer stretches of time they moved further and further underground, seeing the light seldom if ever. I'm almost envisioning them more like poor coal miners of the early 20th century.

>>20007995
We need something to explain how they feed. I'm thinking an ant/bee analogy would work: they have lighted hive for agriculture, chambers dedicated to cattle, etc...
The worm physiology could be something like this: their skin exude a thick and slightly acidic slime that allow for swift moves in the dirt. But as they grow old the slime become rarer and they become stone-like in appearance.

no offense, guys, but could you take the dwarf discussion to its own thread?

>>20008112
The older a dwarf gets, the less useful he is in new tunnels and instead he works on infrastructure, craft making, and war strategy in the already hollowed out barrows. I figure the standard Dwarven expeditionary force would consist of ten to twelve diggers for every one stoneskin "foreman" who does little to no actual digging, but provides his wisdom, expertise, and when it comes to it, his combat truncheon. However, like >>20008210 said, this thread is about elves, so unless we're talking about these worm-dwarves' relationship with elves, we should probably take it to another thread.

bump

>>20008392

>>20008112

That makes sense for a creature burrowing in the dirt, but to be Dwarfy I'm assuming they're living in stone tunnels. I like your idea about the ecosystem - there's probably an entire complex ecosystem in place for light and food, with even the slightest disturbance potentially killing everyone in a dig. That explains the cultural emphasis on tradition - we don't always do this just for its own sake, but because we might cause half our cattle to die and then everyone starves to death. This mindset would slowly creep into other aspects of life.

>>20009150
They MAKE the stone tunnels with their mucusy bodies. Think an African termite mound, except filled with Dwarves. This also fits the whole plains/savannah and moist jungles direction the setting seems geared towards.

Elves fight differently than humans, obviously. But how? For one, Elves never fight as an organized team. Elves do fight in groups, yes, and when an entire Elven army is assembled, the forests are filled with pure death, but each Elf is still basically a solo unit. They do not form squads, or regiments, or even teams, they simply bunch together and fight. They will help eachother in combat, but there will be little actual tactics involved, with the tag-teams being the largest grouping of organized teamwork in Elven society.

This contrasts with humans, who work as a team. Even the most simple of Human armies is an organized group. The mightiest human nations have blocks of men with spears, or shortswords and shields, or packs of bowmen. This is absolutely terrifying to the Elves. Such cohesion is unheard of in Elven society, and is just another reason that the corpse-walkers are so horrible to them. The corpse-walkers don't give a shit about themselves, the fight to win, and they use raw brutality combined with simply not caring about their own safety. An Elf is constantly analyzing paths through the trees, and trying to save himself. A human pushes forward, stabbing his spear into whatever he can find. The straightforward brutality, combined with the unearthly fatalism, is absolutely terrifying to the Elves, whose long lives and movement style (constantly thinking about how to move themselves, rather than eachother) influences a behavior that is often called cowardly. Elves are not afraid to retreat if the battle is even slightly not in their favor. Corpse-walkers? The running monsters will fight to the last man.

And that scares the SHIT out of Elves.

>>20009657
Another problem with elves in warfare, is their reliance on moving in trees. Elves have large, strong arms, with dextrous feet. However, on the ground, they have two styles of fighting in melee: Mad slashes using one arm to swing, and the other and their legs to stabilize themselves (Elves walk on their feet about as good as humans walk on all fours), OR, walking on their hands while using two weapons in their feet. Ranged combat is further complicated. Because of these "styles" of fighting, Elves have two choices, either sacrifice strength and range for mobility (Walking on hands), or sacrificing mobility for range and strength. Many humans have learned that when the Elves come out of the forest, to back up and let the archers take them down, or to simply move around them.

One key thing that the elves never developed, was the shield. In the trees, movement is crucial. In a duel, Elves are CONSTANTLY moving. Their weapons always have sheaths of some sort, for easily switching between moving and fighting. As such, the idea of slowing yourself down to block things never occurred to them. The typical Elven soldier is either a hit-and-run melee user, who strikes hard, then retreats, or a ranged fighter who is constantly on the move while pelting the enemy. Because of this, large blocks of men with shields is absolutely infuriating, and moral destroying. When an Elf shoots an arrow at an Elf, it either hits, or misses. When an Elf shoots an arrow at a human, chances are, it will fly as if it will hit him, then by stopped by his shield. While not as effective in melee, a specialized anti-Elf shield will severely dent any plans the Elves had of not letting the humans reach their forests.

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>>20007403
It's called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Is this archived? Please tell me this is archived.

>>20009210
>Dwarves living in underground hives with clay watchtower outposts for trading and observation purposes
Why do I like the sound of this so much?

>>20009210

I like that. And as you said, seems more setting appropriate for what we've established for elf environments. I'll save the Coal Miner's Daughter Dwarfs for a different. Can the 'love of tradition is actually a deep fear of disaster if their complex termite mound is fucked up even a little' still make it in?

One concern, though, would this be able to incorporate the dwarfs-as-craftsmen stereotypes? Maybe their forges are deep in the hive, the elaborate series of vents are part of it?


>>20009657

>Corpsewalker

That's an awesome thing for the elves to call humans.

>>20010064

Don't fight the feeling, that idea is awesome.

>dorf beards are somehow integral to properly creating their clay structures

>>20010365
Where do you think their acidic, structure building mucous is most highly concentrated?
>acid spewing dorf beards

Wait a minute. How do elves get water? They can't all just drink the dew collected on flower petals or something. At some point they're going to have to go to the forest floor to get some.

They could collect rainwater, I suppose, but if they're not living in a rainforest, there are still going to be problems with water shortages.

Or maybe they're like koala bears and only need the water they get from eating leaves and fruit... I dunno. Do gibbons ever have to come down from the trees?

>>20010397

They use it like a paintbrush for intricate detail work.

>>20010415
Plucked beard hairs retain some of their acidic nature for quite some time after removal, allowing the dwarves to "paint" upon stone, carving into it with the smooth strokes of their beard brushes.

>>20010407

Rain reservoirs in the treetops they've shaped with magic and proper care over generations, like their homes and their beds. Supplemented by dew, waterfalls, water from vines and certain fruits, and in desperate times brave souls may venture to the ground (LAND OF CORPSES) to get water for the clan.

>>20010407
Maybe the trees they make their houses in have developed bowl shaped leaves to collect water in a symbiotic relationship. The elves help the trees pollinate and defend them in return for water and shelter, much like Acacia trees and ants.

Good thread, just bumping for justice

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>>20010407
They could farm the most watery plants up there. Build reservoirs on treetops, shaped like funnels, invisible from below.
If they're nomadic, extracting water from leaves en masse would work for them.
They could break off select branches and collect sap. That would be the most common non-water drink for them, sort of like milk is (well, used to be) for us. Also a base for numerours exquisite, light and tasteful alcoholic drinks.

Elves have a unique drinking culture. Unlike most humans, they find the state of complete drunkedness a most foul of sins - as it is often deadly for a nonchalante tree-traveller - but they can, however, enjoy alcohol's effect on the sense of taste. Fermented sap of different trees, fruits and pure sugar, mixed in one proportion or another, form the basis of a variety of alcoholic drinks, mostly soft, of greatly varying flavors. Each one is served with a particular selection of most elaborate snacks - some of which one wouldn't consider touching unless drunk.
As the cornerstone of elven drinking is taste, it is common to spit out the drink immediately. The ground after a successful party offers is often crowded by delicious game.
The art of drinking plays a significant role of elven social life. It is not uncommon for elves to introduce their children to moderate, healthy doses of alcohol from an early age, fostering the child's tolerance and inspiring a number of jokes about breastmilk from other races.

>>20010545

Looks like OP and most of the contributors have wandered off or gone to sleep.

I think a few things to keep from "standard" elves is the low-birthrate thing. In keeping with low population density and long lives, every birth is sacred, and every life is considered valuable. Elves are cautious, because any life lost is one less hunter to bring food to the table.

They should be semi-nomadic, moving around the forest and hunting mostly easily-replenished prey, like birds and squirrels. Much of their day-to-day fare, outside of leaves, is dried, as that's the best way of preserving food without access to fire or salt.

Remember that in medieval times, the average peasant was scared shitless of the deep woods. Crazy shit lurked there, so I don't see too much conflict between elves and humans. The boundaries of elven territory could be marked by little wooden mommets dangling from trees, a clear ward against the corpsewalkers.

I can see where the elves would be nervous about being on ground level, especially towards the edge of the forest. Think about swimming in an ocean or a deep lake, right near a drop-off. Yeah, you can move around okay, but not with the speed that whatever lives there can. You're out of your element. I can see running freaking elves right the hell out. Older warriors might tell stories of humans springing around, faster than anything that should be natural.

bump for the bump god.

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This thread is great, easily one of my favorite takes on elves.

But riddle me this, /tg/, what do you think of elves and magic? One of the stereotypes regarding elves is, after all, that they're simply better mages naturally than anyone else.

I can't imagine them throwing around fireballs very much, given the horrendous danger of damage to the environment. 'Druids' or some sort of equivalent would probably be the most common sort of mage, furthering their strict control of the forests.

Hell, the human use of wizards with their flashy and destructive spells might give them even more reason to hate the corpsewalkers, for they care not how many trees they fell with lightning, how much land is burnt up by fireballs, etc.

Mages might be targeted first for their danger to the elves, but rather to keep them from doing damage to everything else in trying to kill them.

>>20015376
Looking good, Chris.

>>20010030
I don't know how to do so, but this needs to be saved for future generations.

We're on to something here.

>>20015376

I assume that elven magic would have to be about interacting with their ecosystem - shaping the trees they move through, understanding birdsong, drawing out water and food, et cetera. This gives us magic and close with nature in one go.

I like the idea of them being freaked out by humans throwing around elemental magic. That would tie in further to their conception of the humans as being otherwordly and demonic (in addition to their demon weapons and unnatural stature). Conversely, the humans would see this elf magic as one more layer of them being freaky jungle creatures that they don't understand. They talk to animals, the trees seem to bend to make them paths and obstruct their own, they blend with it. From the human perspective it's like the jungle came alive and turned on them.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/20005554/

>>20015376
I figure elven magic would be how they have bowl shaped plants to collect water, hollowed out homes in still living trees, and would further expedite the extraction of blood-iron.

Simply put, human magic allows us to dominate our environment whereas elven magic allows them to mold theirs like clay. It is said that there is not a single tree in the Great Forest that does not sprout without an elf's permission.

Keep in mind that elves are never going to be a monoculture. They're tribal, with deep divisions between various groups that they would emphasize rather than minimize. Every square mile of forest might be ruled by it's own clan, each with their own signature weapons, facial hair styles, traditions, and magic.

The one unifying feature would be the dark elves down below; the only ones who can walk freely, unmolested. They have no tribe, no family, no life, and so while they're frightening, they're also no one's enemy.

This would also influence how humans are viewed. Elves and humans rarely come to blows; both too awed and frightened by the others and confined to their own environments to want to fight often. Humans are creatures who dwell in the land of the dead, beings of strange nature and enormous wealth; more like spirits than people, both weak and ephemeral, and possessed of strange powers.

In this way the dark elves gain much of their mysterious nature; elves touched by the underworld, speaking to it's demons, and becoming in their long lives just a little bit like them.

>>20018606
>The one unifying feature would be the dark elves down below; the only ones who can walk freely, unmolested.
Unmolested by elves at least. I have to imagine the forest floor is filled with all manners of nasty beasties and stalking predators. Maybe this could be part of the reason groundlings have learned to use their long arms to slink silently across the ground instead of walking upright, further casting them as filthy groundlickers and backwards deadwalkers to the tree climbers above them.
>They have no tribe, no family, no life, and so while they're frightening, they're also no one's enemy.
I'd like to think that varies from groundling to groundling as well. You might have a band that excels in picking off elven traders by knocking them out of trees or another one who's proficient at raiding tree elf stocks when no one's looking. On the other hand, you still have the smiths and the groundling ambassadors, so the forest floor is just as chaotic as the trees.
The elves may regard the ground as deadlands, but that doesn't mean they're empty. It would be better to think of it as their version of hell on earth, filled with frightful forest demons and those disgusting corpsewalkers called humans. Truly, any elf who'd live in such a terrifying place must be half-demon themselves! Or at least half-crazy.

>>20018606

A tribe per acre would be overstating it a bit. Hominids of this size that are this active would burn a lot of calories, and in a foraging lifestyle that requires a fairly significant territory to forage from. It probably wouldn't be reasonable to expect more than, say, three tribes who operate within a loose affiliation, each composed of several large families.

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OP, I like your pepper sauce.

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bump for interest. I've been monitoring this thread since it was created and I'd love to hear more.

>>20022492

What about? If there are any holes that haven't been filled yet we can fluff up some more stuff.

I don't know if anyone's gone into it yet, but fire might be a major part of elven spirituality. It's a tremendously dangerous force but also a tremendously useful one. Keeping it fed without letting it go out of control, feeding it just the right parts of the sacred forest, creating more fire without it becoming a disaster, all of those are probably filed under the heading of 'advanced shaman stuff.' You can picture an elf teaching his son moderation by telling his son a parable about fire - feed it too freely and it destroys all, fail to feed it enough and it abandons the tribe, only by heeding the fire and tending to it carefully do we reap its benefits. This is a life lesson important when navigating dangerous trails, dodging corpsewalkers and large jungle predators - if we do not take the risks the tribe will starve, but if we are too bold we die for nothing.