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    839 KB tRoS Maneuver Discussion Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)13:52 No.17516250  
    My playgroup has been running a Riddle of Steel game for the past month or so, and we're a bit wet behind the ears regarding when it's best to use which maneuvers, particularly the more forward-thinking ones like Beat, Disarm, and Stop Short. The wiki at http://knight.burrowowl.net/doku.php?id=rules:maneuvers has the rules copied over, but little in the way of elaboration.

    I'll begin with Disarm:

    Disarm's odds of success are the same as for a Cut or Thrust, as it is contested by your opponent in the same way, but has a built-in CP cost, higher on the defense than offense. Use Disarm on the first exchange if you are confident you can get a high margin of success, otherwise your opponent is likely to make his Knockdown roll (at TN8, he still has a 51% chance to keep your weapon with only two dice remaining). On the second exchange, use if you are confident you can get a 0 or greater margin of success as even if he keeps his weapon, you retain initiative.

    I do not recommend using Disarm defensively unless you have your opponent well outclassed; spend the activation cost on parrying or evading.

    Note that maneuvers like Disarm are somewhat more attractive against armored opponents, where you may need a strong Margin of Success to inflict real harm. For example: if you know you need an MoS 4 to land a 1 damage rating blow, and only have four CP remaining, you may have a better chance of disarming the knave than hurting him.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)15:38 No.17517194
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    Out of the house, but does the copy and paste of the core rulebook elaborate on it at all?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)15:44 No.17517254
    A popular tactic in closely contested melee is to deprive one’s opponent of his weapon. Beyond the obvious advantage that he cannot counter-attack until he picks it up or draws a new weapon, his defensive options are likely to be reduced as well. Disarming is a popular maneuver when you are trying to avoid hurting your opponent or trying to make him surrender, but it can just as easily be used as a prelude to an easy kill.

    Disarms may be performed as an attack or a defense. As an attack, it is performed in a similar manner to the Beat Maneuver, except that it is not necessary to perform the disarm after a break in the combat like a beat. The attacker assigns as many dice to the disarm as he likes (after paying the activation cost) while the defender makes whichever defense he chooses. If the disarm attack is successful, the defender must make a Knockdown roll TN8 with a penalty to his Knockdown pool equal to the attackers Margin of Success. If this roll is failed (or his Knockdown pool has been reduced to zero or fewer dice) then the weapon has been dropped (refer to the Dropping rules on p. 32 of this book). If the Knockdown roll is successful, then the defender has managed to retain his grip on his weapon but the attacker keeps initiative. Of course, as always, the defender has the option to ignore the disarm attempt and simply attack instead of defending, but unless he steals initiative (p. 38) he’s risking being disarmed before his attack strikes. Additionally, even if the defender succeeds on retaining his grip on his weapon, his pool of dice assigned to the attack is reduced by the attacker’s Margin of Success as the defender struggles to not drop the weapon while he swings it (this does not apply if he steals initiative, of course).
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)15:45 No.17517260
    cont. from >>17517254

    As a defense, the disarm maneuver is performed in a similar manner to a Parry. Perfect timing is required, as the defender must wait for the attack to come, and sweep the weapon aside at the optimal moment, twisting it out of the attacker’s hands. After the activation cost has been paid, dice are assigned as if for a parry. If the defense is successful, then the attacker must make a roll means that the attacker has been disarmed (see the Dropping rules on p. 32). Whether the attacker drops his weapon or not, the defender takes initiative. Of course, if the attacker wins, then the disarm attempt has failed and the attack goes through (minus the defender’s number of successes, as usual). This maneuver is available at Proficiency level 4.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)15:45 No.17517269
    From The Flower of Battle, verbatim.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)16:36 No.17517695
    >then why aren't people disarming left and right?
    because it's an attack. even if it succeds, it gives your opponent the chance to full retreat (and rearm) next exchange.
    unless you're using disarm in a red-red situation. now THAT would be interesting.

    but in most cases, against opponents with similar pools, manouvers are a gambit. I expect players to show off against mooks, but not against a single strong opponent.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)16:43 No.17517757
    Intriguing. Thoughts on Expulsion?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)16:49 No.17517804
    A red/red Evasive Attack vs. Disarm happened in my game this past Tuesday. Happily for the group, the player beat the NPC's initiative and was able to avoid getting hideously pwnt.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)16:53 No.17517840
    So, I figured out how the Scottish basket hilted claymore got denoted as one-edged when it is of course not.

    "Backswords," into which the claymore is rolled, were generally single edged heavy straight swords with a thickened reverse side (the "back"), kind of like the Pallasch except shorter. The claymore was different, but the writers seem to have felt that it was similar enough to justify giving it the same statline.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)16:57 No.17517879
    please tell me it was under FoB initiative, for maximum shenanigans!

    you pay extra to be able to play it safe, and regain back virtually half the extra dice you used... I see it as slightly disadvantageous, but safer, with parry into a bind being the superior answer, whenever that's possible.
    but I'm a prick who considers the distribution of successes and failures thight enough - thinking like that got Sulla killed.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:35 No.17519996
    Expulsion? Let's!

    Defensive Maneuver

    This maneuver is not dissimilar to the offensive beat, but is initiated from the defender's side. This maneuver is only effective against thrusts and thrust-based attacks, or against slash-based attacks made with 4 dice or less.

    To execute an expulsion, simply declare “expulsion'' alongside the standard parry. Dice are allocated to the parry as usual, usually along with a two-die execution cost. The effects are nearly identical to those of an offensive beat.

    If the parry fails, then the round is resolved normally. If the parry is effective, then each die in the defender's success margin causes a -1 CP penalty against thrusting attacks to the defender in the following exchange. See offensive beats, above, for an example.

    This maneuver is available at Proficiency Level 5.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:40 No.17520065
    Expulsion strikes me largely as an expensive Parry that doesn't work against any worthwhile slashing attack. Don't use Expulsion on the first exchange; either invest the activation cost in your Parry or save it for the second exchange.

    If you're on the second exchange and have a surplus of dice that are about to refresh at the start of the next round anyway, Expulsion becomes a reasonable wager.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:43 No.17520111
    Yeah, that excuses the backsword, but the schiavona getting two mentions of single-edgedness when the picture clearly shows (and the fluff blurb even says) that it is two-edged is still well and truly derp.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:45 No.17520131
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    Well, since there's no tRoS general, I guess I should ask my questions here.
    1. Is it worth it to get a shield if you're using a mace?
    2. Is it true that you can't attack and defend in the same round unless you're using a [weapon] and shield?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:47 No.17520144

    In the same exchange? You can while using a longsword too, I think. Doesn't the longsword get evasive attack?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:48 No.17520162
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:49 No.17520173

    Also master strike lets you attack and defend in the same exchange.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:50 No.17520180
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    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:50 No.17520186
    1: Certainly; the proficiency isn't called Mass Weapon *and Shield* for nothing after all.
    2: You can in the same Round--and you more or less HAVE to if you fail an attack and thus lose initiative, but not in the same Exchange without either a shield (and the Simultaneous Block/Strike Maneuver), or a few other tricks (Evasive Attack--which works differently from a regular defense but still does the job, Master Strike...)
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:51 No.17520196
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    Oh. Alright. That post makes sense now.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:52 No.17520208
    German for Master Strike. It's a maneuver that can attack and defend at the same time, found in only a few proficiencies. Longsword/Greatsword being one of them.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:52 No.17520216
    Yeah, exchange is what I meant by round, I get them confused. I meant the 'it's over when the CP of both sides is 0' thing.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:52 No.17520217
    Fucking Meyerboos.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:55 No.17520263
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    Yeah, I got it, my german failed me for a moment.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)20:56 No.17520270
    It still brings a vicious smile to my face seeing that Falchions are the only sword in the game that you can wield with Mass Weapon and Shield proficiency.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)22:03 No.17521233
    Hewing Spear - best weapon or bestest weapon?
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)22:24 No.17521503
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    I dunno, maces are pretty good, as are a lot of things.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)22:25 No.17521514
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)22:27 No.17521538
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    Well, yeah, but when you're a knight or something, knives are not very noble or gentlemanly, are they?
    I mean, knives have their place, but it is not on the battlefield.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)22:31 No.17521586
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    No armor
    No shield
    Knife only
    Zone X only
    Final destination
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)22:33 No.17521615
    Oh man I forgot that picture was transparent.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)22:39 No.17521680
    >Zone X only

    Nein. Zone VI is acceptable as well.
    >> Beat Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)23:04 No.17521946
    Let's take a look at the Beat, a lovely little opening gambit if ever there were one:

    Offensive Maneuver

    The beat is an attack upon an opponent's weapon or shield in attempt to temporarily remove it from the equation. Beats may only be performed at the start of a bout or following a “pause,” as described in Book Four. This sudden, brutal, and effective maneuver is executed by declaring “Beat” as your offensive maneuver, along with the dice allotted to the attack. The defender assigns defense dice to a defensive maneuver (parry, dodge, block, etc.) and the contest is rolled normally.

    If the attacker wins the beat, then the defenders weapon (or whatever else was being “beaten”) is knocked aside and cannot be used in defense on the following exchange.

    Additionally, every success in the attacker's margin costs the defender 2 CP (this functions similarly to Shock, described under Damage in Book Four). If the defender wins then the round is resolved normally and initiative changes over.

    Using a Beat is an excellent way to handle opponents with longer weapons as well: all range penalties are cut in half (round down) when beating.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)23:10 No.17522023
    Time for you to cut back on the 19th century romanticism.
    >> Anonymous 01/12/12(Thu)23:19 No.17522126
    The restriction that you can only use the Beat maneuver at the start of a bout or after a pause (normally from a Full Evasion) is the only thing that stops this from being a God Tier maneuver. At the start of the fight your opponent is going to have his full CP and will have the chance to put a lot of dice into keeping his weapon (or shield) useful in the next exchange.

    Because any reasonable opponent will spend however many CP he has to in order to avoid being defenseless for an exchange, I recommend the Beat maneuver when you've already landed a blow that leaves your opponent short on CP. It is particularly advantageous when the opponent has significant reach on you, as a full evasion would have also reset to the longer reach.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)00:14 No.17522749
    Beating is also quite dangerous straight off against large weapons that don't defend very well in and of themselves, like some polearms.

    However, if you're allowing Winding and Binding, Beats are all but worthless because any contact with a weapon--any at all--allows you to break into a contest of winding.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)00:15 No.17522764
    I, for one, fucking love using this system to model good old-fashioned knife fights. With all the ugly, bloody, vicious brutality thereof.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)00:53 No.17523152
    Beat is pretty limited in its utility even without winding & binding. If your opponent's weapon is poorly-suited to avoiding the Beat, it's also poorly-suited to stopping you from straight-up hurting him.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)00:56 No.17523189
    Ironically, I think Beat lost us the Pole vs Swede fight last night. Karl hit first, if that hit had been a thrust the fight would've ended right there.

    It was smart to use Beat to get around the range penalty to reflex, but the fact that we were thrusting ought to have been enough to do that.
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)01:02 No.17523283
    Gentlemen. Do you think we have sufficient manpower for a deathmatch here tonight?
    >> Cut, Thrust, Bash Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)01:07 No.17523361
    The Swede was being too fancy by half in that fight. Moving on to the gold standard of maneuvers: the Cut, Thrust, and Bash.

    The holy trinity of offensive maneuvers, the bar against which all other maneuvers must be measured, Cut, Thrust, and Bash are the three fundamental ways of Make Other Dude Die. Available to all fighters at any level of proficiency with no activation cost, devoting all CP spent to the annihilation of your opposition, other offensive maneuvers must show themselves to be better than one of thee options before I can consider it to be a wise move.

    Thrust distinguishes itself with a modest initiative edge and a highly-entertaining set of damage tables. Bash distinguishes itself with the shock bonuses for bludgeoning weapons. Vanilla. But vanilla is delicious.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)01:10 No.17523426
    Considering how yesterday went, perhaps we need womanpower instead.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)01:10 No.17523429
    Hells yeah, I'm one.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)01:13 No.17523467
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    I propose a classic matchup: Crusader vs. Saracen
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)01:14 No.17523488
    Perhaps true. Any suggestions? I want to wait a bit before I launch into it, since my dinner is cooking, but I can start preparing now.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)01:16 No.17523519
    Lets go full troll-bait. Knight vs Samurai.
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)01:19 No.17523557
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    Ye've a cruel mind, Jack Sparrow.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)01:26 No.17523641
    Crusader vs Saracen (suggestion: Mounted Combat!)
    Knight vs Samurai (what era tho?)
    German Teutonic Knight vs Lithuanian Noble (sword/shield vs bardiche?)
    Spanish Sword & Buckler man vs French Pikeman
    Dalmatian Pirate vs Venetian Mercenary (schiavona vs polehammer)
    Mongolian Horse Archer vs Russian Horse Archer
    English Archer vs French Man-at-Arms
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)01:37 No.17523756
    I'm still hoping for English Pollaxe knight vs. German Langschwert knight, or Longsword vs. Bastard Sword blossfechten.

    Yes, but even so, that range penalty can suck ass.
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)01:54 No.17523951
    I don't think we've ever actually done a naked longsword/bastard sword fight. That could be genuinely instructive, so I'm leaning that way.
    You'll know the thread when you see it, gentlemen. Deus Vult.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)04:43 No.17525358
    going back to the manouvers:
    what do you guys think of counters/rotas (get opponent successes as extra dice) vs expulsion-like mechanics (your extra successes translate into dice pool penalties)?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)04:43 No.17525364
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)04:44 No.17525375
    Counter was what bumped the Swede off last time, but an Expulsion could've won the fight even earlier.

    Rota in particular strikes me as one of the situationally best moves in the game.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)04:48 No.17525408
    Situationally is right. Cutting or bashing only means it's useless against a huge amount of weapons.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)04:51 No.17525434
    True, it's probably the sort of thing that sees use amongst Cut & Thrusts mostly. It gets around the old problem with Counter of potentially putting you in a worse position than you would've been by just parrying.

    Like the Grapple result, which is certain death for some characters, even if they're initiating with all the advantages.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)04:56 No.17525475
    but if you can survive the potential grapple, stealing the opponents successes strikes as way more powerful than giving a minor penalty.
    unless it's a border-case where the pools are really small.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)04:58 No.17525487
    There's also the chance of what I call "Counter Chicken," in which the person who is countered, himself counters the counterattack in the next exchange, and this continues through multiple turns.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:00 No.17525499
    grapple is far more effective then some people give it credit for.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:00 No.17525503
    Even with a lot of Cut and Thrust weapons, there's little reason not to thrust unless you've been Expelled. Thrusting is just a generally superior method of attack for almost all purposes in this game, or at least it seems that way to me.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:02 No.17525515
    Cuts are harder to parry for some of the civilian weapons, and... Uh... You can twitch? Also, cuts can't be expulsed, and sometimes do more damage, like with the Pallasch.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:03 No.17525526
    sounds fun, but is that safe?
    if you have similar pools, and you just got countered, your opponent is now working from a bigger pool. wouldn't it be better to revert to basic parries?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:04 No.17525530
    Cuts almost never do more damage than thrusting, except with really really massive weapons. Armor almost always is better against cuts than against thrusts.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:06 No.17525550
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    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:07 No.17525554
    The reason you counter after being countered is that, assuming the first one happened in Exchange 1 of that turn, if you succeed on this one, the Refresh will happen before you retaliate.

    Then, suddenly, you have an insurmountable CP advantage. Definitely a longshot though.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:11 No.17525581
    That ain't necessarily true. Most swords do better cutting damage, it's just a few weirdos like the rapier, sidesword and the smallsword (and the bastard sword, particularly when half-handing) that really break that rule.

    For things like backswords, cut & thrusts sabers, arming swords, and most of the big two handers, it's all about cutting. That's a very large part of the weapon tree right there.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:16 No.17525612
    But again, armor will usually have a much greater effect on the cutting damage than the thrusting damage, negating the base damage advantage.

    At least cuts do have their use, though. Draw cutting...now THAT is a shit tier maneuver. Even less damage than regular cuts if your enemy isn't completely retarded, and you step in to do...what? More draw cut attempts that get soaked by armor? Lol. I guess if you try a draw cut with an S range weapon it'll get you in perfect range to go to a wrestling match, but other than that...so worthless.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:25 No.17525668
    do overruns and master strikes get any love, or are just a way to toy with your food, with too high requirements and costs, while simultaneous b/s does something similar (for shield or dual weapon users) for cheap?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:33 No.17525712
    Overrun is fairly crap, Master Strike is reasonably useful, from what I've seen.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:34 No.17525717
    Not everyone wears full armor all the time. It's a very time period sensitive thing. Draw cuts are pretty damn stylin' if you're fighting in a later age in which breastplates without arm or leg protection are the norm, or when the legs and forearms are exposed.

    And regular cuts only suffer a -1 damage (or rather the armor gets +1 AV) in almost all cases, which, for things like the Greatsword or Longsword, is pretty trivial.

    When you consider that even the Rapier suffers a -1 damage penalty against metal armor, this doesn't look so bad. Armor is good against everything.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:41 No.17525743
    is that because you can't overrun in a red/red situation?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:41 No.17525744
    Draw cutting is the king bitch of low strength civilian maneuvers. Lets even a fairly flimsy guy terminate the shit out of an enemy in one hit, without a high margin of success. Really good for situations in which parties are equally matched, unarmed, and have unimpressive strength.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:42 No.17525748
    It's mostly because overrun lets you use a dodging maneuver while you attack. But the dodging maneuvers are all nightmarishly difficult in comparison to conventional blocking.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:47 No.17525777
    it's just dtn7, and you get a couple more dice to roll, as it's a cheaper manouver... all luck aside, the results should be pretty similar, until you're rolling a dozen of dice on defense!
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)05:52 No.17525813
    >Not everyone wears full armor all the time. It's a very time period sensitive thing. Draw cuts are pretty damn stylin' if you're fighting in a later age in which breastplates without arm or leg protection are the norm, or when the legs and forearms are exposed.

    Anybody who you can reasonably expect to fight seriously is going to have at least cloth armor, which already negates a +1 draw cut modifier. Unless you have a katana or something (which I am still rather ticked off about its inclusion in a game meant to simulate WMA), you're so much better off just cutting it's not even funny.

    >And regular cuts only suffer a -1 damage (or rather the armor gets +1 AV) in almost all cases, which, for things like the Greatsword or Longsword, is pretty trivial.

    It's still a penalty that you do not need to take, because thrusting.

    I guess, if you're basically playing down and dirty razor blade fights in back alleys between naked peasants.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:01 No.17525866
    Did Galt get eaten again?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:09 No.17525916
    When we see the Galt signal, we'll know it's time. Remember that he's the hero tRoS needs, not the hero it deserves...
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:12 No.17525937
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    So, uh...
    I made a character who has 20 CP right out of character generation.
    Is that even supposed to be possible?
    My GM is using a custom setting, and my character's racial gives him a bonus to his weapon proficiency (bringing it to 11), and I chose Attributes for priority A, which let my reflex be 8. One of my Spiritual Attributes is Passion (My Weapon) with 1 starting point it it, and my GM let me add that to CP when using the specific weapon.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:14 No.17525949
    Answered your own question there with this talk of custom racials and that GM ruling. No, normally your CP won't be that high starting out.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:21 No.17525989
    But still, your CP can get close to there right? Without the racial and SA, my CP would be 17, which is still really damn high. Is that possible, without and racials or anything?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:22 No.17525998
    Don't wanna do the math, but my murder peasant started with 14.
    >> Snapper Carr 01/13/12(Fri)06:26 No.17526029
    Aw man, I was staying up for a Galt Vs thread, but he appears to have disappeared. Guess I should just get some rest. I'll learn Riddle of Steel another day.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:30 No.17526061
    iirc you can have 7 points in a prof, but the max reflex is 6.5 (do racials apply before or after?), so that's 13. you could cash in a bunch of SAs to up reflex to 7, and get 14.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:31 No.17526062
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    I guess Galt's asleep, as he runs on Yank time. Storman Norman will be at work now. My girlfriend is round, so I don't have the time to run one.

    Sorry. Another time?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:32 No.17526065
    You're missing some of the point here. In what way is a Pallasch improved by thrusting? Even against plate, you do literally the same damage thrusting as cutting, except that with a Cut, you can do that thing for a bonus damage by spending a die. Maybe when you're going red/red for the bonus die, but otherwise the cut is simply superior.

    Similarly, with a longsword there's nothing to make the thrust better than the cut unless you're half-swording, which is far from universally desirable. Evasive Attack can only be performed with a cut, which by itself makes it awesome.

    On the subject of Draw Cutting, again, not everyone wears armor on every inch of their body, no, not even padded armor (which isn't cloth, it's heavy quilt, like a.gambeson. A shirt does not give you 1 AV,) and even if they did, the dedicated draw weapons like the saber, the schweizersabel and the katana still do better draw damage than regular cut damage, and coincidentally are also much better at cutting than thrusting.

    You're speaking from a very specific meta which isn't universal, and it's obfuscating your perspective on the maneuvers.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:35 No.17526085
    Cutting weapons actually do bonus damage against cloth armor, with exactly negates the penalty for draw cutting.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:37 No.17526091
    Wait, then why the hell would they include a penalty for draw cutting against cloth armor?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:39 No.17526102
    Because draw cuts are, as in real life, more reliant on the sharpness of the blade than the actual force put into the blow.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:44 No.17526124
    I'm gonna, like, bump this thing.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:45 No.17526127
    That might actually be the textbook answer. Well played.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)06:55 No.17526174
    >Unless you have a katana or something (which I am still rather ticked off about its inclusion in a game meant to simulate WMA)

    THIS. Goddamnit, this. It's a patently ridiculous inclusion in a game about serious combat rather than bullying unarmed peasants.


    Look at this fucking video. This is real fucking swordsmanship right here. Can anyone tell me what fucking place a bunch of shit tier nipponese chop socky katana faggotry would have against this sheer elegance of brutality? Because I sure as shit don't see any room for it.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:00 No.17526195
    A question to the RoS experts around here:
    I'm goint to start a campaign in a very low-fantasy setting with a bit of eastern european vibe. A dark age indeed. What I really want to ask is: I know that RoS goes for tactical swordplay and is quite good for a low-magic setting, but I'm afraid that the combat would turn out to be *too* detailed. Combat will play an important role in this campaign, of course, but I'd put dark atmosphere and mysticism/superstition before it if I were to categorize the different parts. So... Would RoS rules be a bit too much for this kind of campaign? Would you suggest something else (like Rolemaster, for instance)? Combats must be deadly and gritty, but I don't want to slow it down excessively.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:03 No.17526211
    God my English sucks today.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:04 No.17526221
    It MIGHT be a little much for you, but I'm not sure what would be better off the top of my head.

    Riddle of Steel does Eastern Europe pretty well, though. Sabers, pallasch, schiavonas, bardiches, all that good stuff.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:06 No.17526229
    Can we, uh, not do the whole "we hate the Japanese" stuff right now? Riddle of Steel is pretty equal opportunity as far as this sort of thing goes.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:08 No.17526244
    Basically, the fewer longswords you have in your setting, the faster combat will go.

    Eastern Europe is pretty well suited to this actually, most of the weapons associated with the region (sabers, lances, axes, maces, the good stuff) are quick and brutal in this game. Combat will be brutish, but fast and pretty simple.

    The low magical mysticism business is perfect, as long as you don't want the actual players to be wizards or something, because that spirals out of control.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:10 No.17526253
    It was supposed to be a simulator for HEMA. Where the true awesomeness of western swordfighting is brought to light and all the weeaboo myths die gruesome deaths by zornhau and halbschwert. Adding in crap like kendo or whatever and modified tools just sullied it.
    >> CacameAweminade !!+cMw79n6iy0 01/13/12(Fri)07:10 No.17526255
    I can agree with this, being a wizard in a game myself. I can literally smash most of the other players to pieces using two objects, my familiar, and a large golem.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:11 No.17526263
    Late to the party, but what does RoS mean by a draw cut? I always took it to mean something you did while very close, not from "long" range. Like after a thrust or cut that were parried/blocked, with a little movement you could cause your blade to contact the enemy so you just push or pull to cut them.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:12 No.17526278
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    Son of a bitch, Vasily. You're supposed to be sleeping.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:13 No.17526285
    Basically it's a cut that moves laterally (one way or another) along the axis of the blade even as it moves into the opponent's flesh, to inflict more damage via raw blade sharpness. Done correctly, it can actually leave a horrific, deep wound. Done incorrectly, it inflicts a wound not unlike a really long razor nick--shallow and useless.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:16 No.17526305
    True, but there's more to it than that. Anyone going in expecting the Katana to cut through steel plates is going to be terribly surprised, but much in the same vein, anyone like you who thinks that all those years of autistic attention to detail the Japanese poured into their swordsmanship didn't result in something that in fact killed people is probably going to get cut in half.

    A medium weapon with CTN 5, and a proficiency other than Longsword that has (GASP) Evasive Attack. There are many more outrageous things. Does this intimidate you so much that you need to react to it this strongly?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:18 No.17526318
    You mean there's shinai in there? Because that's all kendo uses.

    You hate weeaboos, fine. You hate Japanese wankery, fine. But stop pretending the actual historical reality is at fault there, or that their combat systems and weapons were utter shit just because of what a bunch of dumbasses today do.

    Also i wonder if any groups today do katana "HEMA style" (that is, without mystical bullshit attached, with actual steel combat and so on), i've considered doing it, but apparently finding a blunt katana is harder than a sharp one unless you go with the iaido ones, and i don't think i'd trust that.

    Also did any period Europeans import katanas and write something on them? That should be interesting.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:20 No.17526331
    I think the Portuguese got some and got really pissed off at them for having no real analogue on their side of the world.

    Can you imagine trying to use a Katana like a backsword?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:21 No.17526339
    Oh, I'm well aware that the katana in the game is exactly as useless for fighting real battles as it is in real life. Attacks effectively at range S, cannot inflict any serious damage to anything other than a stupid unarmored peasant. I'm just annoyed that it's there in a game that is supposed to give WMA the exaltation it's been missing for so long.

    Well...that and despite ostensibly being written by HEMAbros who should know better, the fluff blurb on the katana trots out the thoroughly disproven crap about it being made with "advanced smithing techniques".
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:22 No.17526342
    Yes i know that part, but that's not what i meant. I meant the RoS maneuver. In reality it's something i'd only attempt after binding (usually) and ending up too close to deliver a thrust, so i just push my blade to their body and slide it.

    From what i've read here it seems like a "full cut" done from "far away", which happens to draw the cut after delivering it. Is that right?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:24 No.17526353
    This is really nice art style, but I can't make out what the signature reads. Sauce?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:24 No.17526354
    Well there are some two handed sabers in Europe too (that two handed messer comes to mind, which funnily enough also doesn't have much of a pommel), though they might be more of an Eastern Europe thing.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:25 No.17526357
    About that...you kinda can, sort of. Katanas can take Saber proficiency in this game, and if you let certain backswords use Saber as well as Cut and Thrust, well...yeah.

    Actual koryu budo (the really really old-school Japanese martial arts academies that taught *real warfare skills*) tend to favor weight-matched bokken to do it, but you occasionally see some guys doing so.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:28 No.17526380
    Not quite To do it, *you* have to step in one range category and attack as normal. Basically, you sacrifice a reach advantage, or worsen a reach disadvantage, for extra damage, or at least try to invert the range penalty in your favor after you hit. (Though this isn't that useful--most things will just shield bash you or shift into halfsword)
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:29 No.17526390
    Incidentally, draw cuts seem to have been favoured by swordsmen in the subcontinent. Gatka loves that shit, although the extent to which gatka is an authentic old martial art, rather than sword poi, is up in the air. I know some of the Bradford guys who practice it are getting into test cutting and thongs though.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:29 No.17526391
    But steel feels so nice, and wood is so fat...

    Now for something on the rapier. In Grandezas de la Espada (a Destreza manual by Luis Pacheco de Narvaez) there's a warning against the cut to the left side of the head (ie: delivered from your right side, though it's formed by doing a full circle after pushing away the enemy blade in that part of the book), saying to avoid it if you don't want to kill your opponent. Are rapiers choppy enough for this in RoS?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:31 No.17526406
    By the way, anyone got a link to KM's media fire stuff?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:31 No.17526407
    This is going to lead into one of the dumber things about the game. Despite having a Cut ATN, cut damage, and a draw cut mod? Rapier proficiency doesn't actually GET the Cut or Draw Cut attack forms, so you can only ever use those if you use the maneuver defaulting option.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:32 No.17526418
    Tulwars are pretty decent in this game, speaking of Gatka. They're rolled in with the Shamshir
    >> CacameAweminade !!+cMw79n6iy0 01/13/12(Fri)07:33 No.17526421
    Deal with it. Want to chat on our usual channel?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:33 No.17526424
    So would it make sense to do it after for whatever reason ending up too close? (Can this happen without either fighter trying for it? Like both happened to close distance at the same time or somesuch?)

    Also i'm thinking a longsword context (since that's what i know), where you won't get shieldbashed, though you can get hiltbashed.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:33 No.17526425
    ...Actually, the Katana's pretty good to go against just about anything. ATN of 5 and one of the best proficiencies means it'll rock the house most of the time, even against pretty well armored enemies.

    In fact, in RoS it is not unthinkable for someone with a solid CP to cleave through guy in plate armor with a katana, assuming about equivalent toughness and strength. Just don't draw cut, you've still got the best ATN in the game of any cutting weapon.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:37 No.17526447
    I don't know much about RoS so i'm slightly lost with the terminology, but i can see why if they based it on the Italian styles, which mostly work from a range where cutting is useless. I've heard at least one of them has a cut as part of unsheathing the sword and nothing else (not to mean it doesn't exist, i'm no expert on Italian rapier, i'm mostly about Spanish rapier and some German longsword).

    Are there fighting schools or something which train different techniques?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:38 No.17526453
    Technically, yes. And don't forget halfswording, which isn't that hard to quickly switch to and has a damn brutal combat statline.

    I'd stop short of saying with certainty that it could rock a guy in full plate, but it'd most certainly tear the shit out of an early medieval knight in mail, a Spanish rodelero (especially since they usually didn't have gorgets), or a Norseman.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:40 No.17526464
    Yeah, there's fighting school rules in one of the supplements where you pick a package of proficiencies, with one being your main proficiency that you get a specialization bonus to a specific weapon that uses it.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:40 No.17526468
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    No clue, picked it up on /tg/ a while ago.

    Yeah, sure.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:44 No.17526485
    >Just don't draw cut, you've still got the best ATN in the game of any cutting weapon.

    Actually you can go ahead and draw cut. The penalty for draw cutting hard armor is only -2, which means that you're going to do the same amount of damage whether you did a draw or normal cut. If you've got the CP to suck up the range penalty the first time, might as well get in there and fuck him up at too close for his comfort.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:45 No.17526491
    It seems to be some illustration of the D&D deity "Helm"
    Maybe you can find out more.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:46 No.17526496
    I like that at that point, you're basically holding your sword against the guy's breastplate and pushing it through the steel through force of will alone.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:49 No.17526505
    I keep hearing that plate is a great advantage in RoS and now you're saying you can draw cut through a breastplate?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:51 No.17526519
    On the one hand, the part of me that doesn't like GRORIOUS NIPPON wankery any more than that bitchy faggot up there does wants me to roll my eyes so hard they start smoking in their sockets.

    ...On the other hand? If Legionnaire Sulla could punch a samurai so hard with his cestus that it exploded his face and embossed SPQR on the back of the guy's helmet? This is pretty much all right.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:53 No.17526536
    A light plate, MAYBE a normal plate with a true shitload of attack successes to do it to either one of them. It's because the katana cuts at ATN 5--meaning that you are very likely to see lots and lots of successes when you make that attack. And as >>17526519 said? This actually isn't as crazy as some of the shit that can come about through a sufficient number of attack successes can get.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:55 No.17526549
    Well yeah, with a margin of success of like six.

    Without plate you don't even need a MoS, you can do like St+4 damage after draw and cut, which is about the same as being hit with a bardiche.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:57 No.17526558
    To wit: In order to cut through a normal breastplate (AV 5) worn by a guy with TO 6 and inflict a wound, a ST 4 guy with a katana needs seven successes. It's a tall order, but again: ATN 5. As long as his pool is good, he might just damn well do it.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:58 No.17526568
    One last question about Draw Cuts before I hit the sack.

    When you get a Counter result that is a cut to an area, or do a Rota, can the cut be made as a draw cut rather than a normal cut?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:58 No.17526571
    Goddamn if my heart didn't soar with joy, and then plummet deep.

    Does anyone actually get what the whole ending sequence meant? Like, he had a little soliloquy going with a wishing well or some shit that went over my head.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)07:59 No.17526581
    I... Don't know. Damn. It probably should be an option, because I've seen some Japanese stuff that looks pretty damn counter-y, and that were definitely draw cuts, but I think RAW it cannot be done.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:01 No.17526598
    I'd allow it, chalking it up to the fact that Draw Cut wasn't even part of the game when the original Counter rules were wrote up. It's something the weapons should be able to do (by this same token, fuck the police, Rapier gets Cut [1] and Draw Cut [1, maybe 2?] on its maneuver list), thus I'd allow it.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:09 No.17526648
    Sulla died and went to the Elysian fields.
    There, he chased some guy through them for like a million years.
    Then, he found a well that showed him all of his descendants (he liked whores apparently), and he realized that they all started dying off from plague or something after a while.
    He starts freaking out because he doesn't want his bloodline to die, so he starts asking gods for help, but none of them answer.
    Then he invokes the god of justice, and that somehow works, but we don't see how.

    However, earlier on it's dropped pretty heavily that the whore from Gizkaquest was Sulla's last descendant, meaning that Sulla's intervention is probably what saved her from being flung off the walls of Rome, and is going to end up allowing her to Kill Borgia.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:10 No.17526652









    Remember the first test fight Galt ran for us? Viking versus pikeman?

    It totally ended in pike stab to the dick. And it was beautiful.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:13 No.17526670
    Yes. Yes it did. I even remember the guy, I named my last character after him. Blackpool.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:18 No.17526694
    Oh snap. So it wasn't Gizka, but the flotation device? And why the god of justice, who was the Roman god of justice?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:21 No.17526707
    The blindfolded person with the scales that we see representing courts and law is Justitia, the goddess of justice.
    Of course, God of Justice is also the name of the Serbian National Anthem.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:26 No.17526736
    but do you remember Bueno Grande?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:27 No.17526744
    The bear with the poleaxe? No, I don't remember the bear with the poleaxe. That's the sort of thing you forget quickly, bears with poleaxes.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:29 No.17526749
    he could totally break a shield and hit the man behind with his pollaxe, too
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:32 No.17526766
    Speaking of maneuvers. Maneuver somebody posted couple of weeks ago. Made me laugh.

    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:42 No.17526826
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    Going to get a bit of house work done, then I think that I might run a BG'sB fight. Anyone interested?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:43 No.17526837
    ... what's a BG'sB?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)08:48 No.17526870
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    By God's Blood, a homebrew Mordheim meets tRoS skirmish wargame being crafted up by the fechtguys. You can check out the very much Work in Progress rules at http://knight.burrowowl.net/doku.php?id=bygodsblood

    Oh, speaking of Trollhoffer, Hans Talhoffer (Anonymous)/Paulus Kal/That fucking German dude on FB has been at it again - http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=173381202763262
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:03 No.17526957
    it looks like a mix of Flames of War and tRoS.
    does it play out smoothly?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:11 No.17527007
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    Okay. Let's begin with an example BG'sB combat. Let's go motherfucking viking raiding, because the equipment is obvious. Migration/Early Medieval period pictures appreciated - most of my collection is later. The contestants are:

    Cnut - a Vikingr.
    Fit / Willing / Veteran.
    Equipment: Maille Shirt (Torso, Arms). Shield. Axe (2" range).

    Guthrum - a thegn.
    Sound / Determined / Trained.
    Equipment: Spangel Helm (Head). Shield. Javelin (Missile Weapon, 12" range). Spear (3" range).

    They'll begin 20" apart. We'll roll to see who has the first turn.

    Who do you want to be?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:13 No.17527016
    let's go a-viking!
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:14 No.17527019
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    No fucking idea. We need to play test it. And come up with ideas and content.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:19 No.17527045
    Good choice that man. Your soundtrack for today's bloodmatch will be Amon Amarth's 'Death in Fire' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPKQ-2OgyX8

    Roll a d6. On a 4+ you get to go first.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:22 No.17527060
    rolled 2 = 2

    it's just that the change of level of abstraction (that suddenly, from abstracted becomes gritty as you resolve a wound) looks strange, at first glance. knee-jerk reaction, and all that, you know.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:28 No.17527092
    Oh shit man, that fucking Saxon gets to go first.
    No checks to make in the book-keeping phase. On to the movement phase.

    The swine-fucker advances towards you 3", beating on his shield with the butt of his javelin, spitting out venomous curses at you and your Godless ancestors. There is now 17" between you.

    In the action phase, he elects to do nothing. He has a range advantage and a missile weapon. No point in rushing the death of this foreigner.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:29 No.17527098
    (Forgot to mention. Things tick over to your first turn. 17" between you. Nothing to do in the book-keeping phase. Onto the movement phase. What do?)
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:36 No.17527129
    I can't see any way to avoid getting javelin'd, and there's no way to cover behind a shield (from my understanding, at least) so... let's rush him. frothing, screaming, and viking. the full 9 yards. or 14 inches.

    by the way, had the englishman been within 16, and thus (potentially, after a sprint) in melee range, would that have stopped him from using a missile weapon (it's a standard warmahordes tactic)?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:46 No.17527180
    As far as I can see it, nothing would have as the rules stand. When the Vikingr ends up in range, he can chuck it. When the Vikingr charges, he can stand and shoot. It's just various options at this stage - in a battle he could chuck when in range and then flee towards his mates, for instance.

    Cnut fucking legs it towards the thegn, making 7" in his movement phase, and then declaring a sprint, moving 7" further towards the Saxon. He ends up just outside the range of the Saxon's spear, but within range of the javelin.

    Things tick over to Guthrum's turn. He's listenning to some damn fine Heidevolk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBpDom4QWHE

    As the whale-road rider advances, he backpedals a bit, moving back another 6". There are now 9" between the two. The Saxon hefts the javelin in one hand and lobs it towards the pillager.

    Normal range. As a trained warrior, he needs a 4+ to hit. However, he's chucking it at a man advancing behind a shield, so it is a 5+ to hit. Someone roll a d6 for me?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:51 No.17527205
    rolled 2 = 2

    also, there's the difference vs all other systems that movement is fast, but charges are slow - that's interesting, making flanking and manouvering a bit easier (even tho there's no flanking per se, atm)
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)09:58 No.17527240
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    >The only difference between charging and sprinting is that charging is directed at someone. Accidentally sprinting into range of a pike-wielder is a recipe for being kebabed as you jog past.

    Fortunately for our brave nord, the missile flies harmlessly past. The saxon watches you nervously, grasping his spear with his right hand in an over-hand grip.

    Turn flips over. Nothing in your bookkeeping phase. You're 9" apart. He has a Melee Area of 3". You have one of 2". What do?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:01 No.17527253
    >even tho there's no flanking per se, atm
    As a skirmish game, I think flanking is slightly less important than when people are moving in dense formations. But still:
    >Establish whether the character being charged can see the charging character according to the rules in the Line of Sight section. If the character being charged can, then that character may then make a Charge Response. If the character being charged cannot see the charging character, then it cannot make a Charge Response, and also they lose one dice from their combat dice pool, to a minimum of 0 dice. Bushwhacked!

    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:07 No.17527281
    rolled 6, 6, 4, 4 = 20

    I also have no way to increase that melee area - can the javelin be recovered, or does it count as destroyed?
    there's only one thing left to do: charge him, see if he can skewer me (does he even get to try?), and see what kind of stuff he's made of.
    from my understanding, charging norses get 4 dice worth of axing - rolling here to save time.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:11 No.17527303
    Unfortunately the javelin cannot be recovered. That would take too much book keeping in a skirmish game, I feel.

    Fucking sweet roll. We'll save it for later.

    So, you advance to say, 4" away in the movement phase, then declare a charge. Four dice if you reach him. However, before you get a chance to, he has an opportunity to spear you as you enter his melee area.

    He has two dice (as he is trained), and needs 5+ to stab you in the gizzard, as you are a veteran. However, since you're also carrying a shield, that becomes a 6+. Someone roll 2d6 for me?

    >http://knight.burrowowl.net/doku.php?id=bygodsblood:gamemechanics:melee_sequence for the rules for all this.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:15 No.17527324
    rolled 5, 2 = 7

    so you get to move, THEN charge and THEN attack! I thought (mostly because it's how most other games do it, and I wasn't paying enough attention) charging was part of moving - fortunately, it changes nothing.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:19 No.17527338
    What maneuver did Robert the Bruce use when he split open the head of Henry de Bohun?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:21 No.17527346
    IIRC there is a spell in RoS that lets you accelerate an arrow to the speed of light. It takes linear warriors, quadratic wizards to a whole new level.

    But that's okay, because it's upfront about it and linear warriors aren't actually linear because the combat system is so incredibly detailed and filled with possibilities.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:22 No.17527349
    > Attacking happens automatically if you wander into someone's melee area - it triggers a melee sequence. You have a movement phase, and then an action phase in which both sprinting and charging are options (one's legging it, the other is hurtling into someone. I should probably make charging distances shorter than sprinting ones. Is it worth it?)

    You charge past the point of his spear, batting it to one side with your shield while making a series of swings at him with your axe, some of which connect with meaty thuds.

    >You're a veteran, and so gain 3 dice. You declared a charge, so get +1 dice to your melee pool. He's trained, so normally you'd need 4+, but he has a shield, so you need 5+. You rolled 6, 6, 4, 4, which is awesome.

    Roll 2d6 for hit locations.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:25 No.17527362
    rolled 6, 5 = 11

    since whizzing past a spear point without getting impaled isn't awesome enough, we've also hit the cunter in the...
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:26 No.17527363
    torso and nogging!
    now that's some axing.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:27 No.17527367
    >De Bohun lowered his lance and charged, but Bruce stood his ground. At the last moment Bruce manoeuvred his mount nimbly to one side, stood up in his stirrups and hit de Bohun so hard with his axe that he split his helmet and head in two.

    I'd call it an Evasive Attack. There's no bind, so it wasn't a displacement, and it wasn't using the principle of uberlauffen, so it wasn't an over-run. It's a nach-reisen if anything.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:29 No.17527376
    Ouch. Things don't look good for the Christ-licker.

    Now, the hit to the head will hit his helm. I'm counting it as 'Munitions Quality Plate Harness'. So he get's a 3+ save to the head. Someone roll a d6 for that?

    The hit to the torso is only protected by civilian clothing. Fuck. Roll a d6 to see how badly he is fucked there?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:34 No.17527389
    rolled 2 = 2

    let's see if the head holds, so we can proceed...
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:35 No.17527396
    rolled 3 = 3

    to the chest, in classic axe-maniac style... or was it the other way around?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:41 No.17527448
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    The helmet collapses under the force of your first blow. Roll a d6 to see what happens to his brains.

    As for the strike to the belly, it carves a savage gash in his stomach, causing the Saxon to stumble over:
    >The attack results in an injury which is serious and debilitating, making it difficult for the character to continue fighting. The character’s Skill attribute is reduced to Recruit and their Health attribute to Poor.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:44 No.17527482
    rolled 2 = 2

    there's something of the axe-maniac in the system too... you know, going all 'who cares about how you use the weapon, you're just this good with it, but if somebody gets wounded, let's see it in detail'... thinking about it, it's a bit like mordheim.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:49 No.17527556
    And the swing cleaves through the Saxon's helmet, embedding in his cranium for a moment before being torn out again. His brains are left open to the air.
    >The attack is horrible, but not as horrible as the way in which the character keeps on fighting with their eye out, or with their brains open to the heavens. The character’s Skill attribute is reduced to Recruit and their Health attribute to Poor. Furthermore place a Walking Dead marker next to the character.

    Now, poor Guthrum's turn. Book Keeping phase:
    >Make a Motivation Test for all characters with a Walking Dead marker next to them. If failed, the character becomes Incapacitated as they are overcome by their wounds; remove the character from play. If the player passed the test, the character stays in play for the moment.

    However, the crazy thegn is still determined. Roll a d6. On a 3+ the crazy foo' keeps fighting.

    To be honest, I'm not sure how you'd get a way of differentiating between a messer and an arming sword in a skirmish game, but have it quick and easy to play. The rolling for the last bit was simply 're-roll success, consult chart'. Which is simples and quick. When not on 4chan.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:52 No.17527579
    rolled 3 = 3

    >he keeps fighting
    now that's crazy. and happened all the time on medieval battlefields.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:57 No.17527645
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    Jesus Christ. Maybe there is something to this southern God. For some reason the thegn stumbles backwards under your flurry of blows, but then charges forwards, stabbing several times with his spear.

    >The rules are actually fucking obtuse here as to what happens. I'm assuming that he's retreating and then charging again, so strikes first. Any idea of what should happen, if this game wasn't written by a drunk amateur?

    He's a recruit, stabbing at a veteran. 1 dice, +1 for the charge. 5+ to hit a veteran, +1 for a shield, so 2d6 @ 6.

    Stab, stabbity stab stab.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)10:59 No.17527670
    rolled 2, 5 = 7

    he's a zombie, like his jew god!
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:03 No.17527705
    The first thrust is off target, but Cnut has to deflect the second one with his shield. It bounces off the boss as our brave man from polar lands strikes back.

    Veteran, so 3 dice. An opponent who is a recruit, so 3+. 4+ for having a shield.

    3 @ 4+ to chop up this unnatural abomination.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:06 No.17527734
    how about just... running away, and let him decay like a good zombie?
    I mean, fuck this, I'm not fighting THAT! he's clearly invincible!
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:16 No.17527850
    Eh, it's your chance to strike back. That'd be a perfectly valid tactic for your next turn.

    Now roll dem d6s.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:18 No.17527880
    rolled 4, 2, 3 = 9

    ah. ok, then.
    let's axe some zombies.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:29 No.17528006
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    Hmm. I suppose that the rules could mean that he could declare a charge, but stop outside of axe-range. Any thoughts on that /tg/?

    Anyway, one hit. Roll 1d6 for location.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:31 No.17528019
    rolled 3 = 3

    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:32 No.17528033
    That's a hit to the thegn's right arm. Presumably it's some kind of evasive chop. As though the fucker was an English knight.

    Roll for 1d6 for damage.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:35 No.17528062
    rolled 4 = 4

    >zombie english knight
    I just wanted to rape and pillage... and now this?
    why, odin... why?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:40 No.17528104
    Odin has forsaken you!

    Or not:
    >The attack deals significant structural damage to the character’s arm. Grasping a weapon in that hand becomes impossible and thinking clearly is now difficult for them. The attacking player rolls a d6 – on a result of 1-3 then the left arm has been wounded, on a result of 4-6 them the right hand has been wounded. The wounded character’s Skill attribute is reduced to Recruit. (ie. A character holding a sword in its right arm would drop that sword, yet would keep a pike but be unable to make attacks with it.)

    Welp, that needs to be re-written. We already know that it was the right arm. To the arse-dicking saxon has his arm chopped to the bone as he tries to stab at you.

    What now, oh fighter of zombie English kniggets?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:46 No.17528166
    he's a zombie. with an open mind, and a shield.
    I say we run. there's nothing to pillage here, time's wasting.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)11:58 No.17528290
    You run 7" away in your movement phase, and sprint a further 7" away. With a movement of 5" he'll never be able to catch up.

    Cnut back away before turning and sprinting to a safe distance. You watch as Guthrum, your adversary, tries to start after you and collapses into the dewey grass.

    Victory! Later you approach his farm-stead, rape his daughter, enslave his son and loot his chattels.

    Feedback on By God's Blood?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)12:04 No.17528356
    >Run in
    >chop someone's brain up and gut up
    >chop someone's gut up
    >run away

    Sounds legit
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)12:09 No.17528404
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    I'd love to see a flail vs sword-n-shield fight, thinking about it. I'm curious as to whether it's really as good as an anti-shield weapon as the books make out.

    You know, I'm having trouble finding pictures of historical flails with chains as long as is commonly depicted in fiction. About the longest chain I can find on a real flail is less than a foot.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)12:10 No.17528418
    feels a bit like flames of warred mordheim...
    would you consider crazy swashbuckling antics in crowded cityfight terrain?
    also, most skirmish games I know of, run on 'exception-based design' (everything has a slew of special snowflakey exceptions, and since there are so few models playing at the same time it still works) - will you eventually move in that direction?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)12:26 No.17528601
    I imagine that it'd be easy to copy and paste over the Mordheim terrain rules. So no problems there.

    As for exception based design - until we even consider including the supernatural and weird. What's the need? A person is defined by their health, their experience, their determination and their equipment. Perhaps when we work on settings and points costs that could change...
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)13:56 No.17529514
    BG's B question:
    Should weapons have a minimum range, below which they incur a Melee Pool penalty?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)16:23 No.17531100
    Back on tRoS proper...I don't think a Cut ATN of 5 is appropriate for the katana at all, honestly. Katanas are NOT easy to cut with--you have to use a very specific cutting technique with it to do real damage, otherwise you do all but nothing. You do a lot of damage if you get it right, but it is still not easy. Japanese swordsmanship focuses massively on repetition of form to get the proper cutting technique down, and it's still something you have to think about in a fight, which is going to put you at a disadvantage against more intuitive swords.

    It should have a Cut ATN of at LEAST 7, and 8 would probably be even more realistic (which I'm aware puts it higher than the Thrust ATN, which I'm okay with--while cutting is the primary katana attack, thrusts are about as simple to do with the katana as with any other sword). In return, the draw cut modifier should be increased to something like +3 or +4. Because when you DO do it right, shit fucking hurts. Lastly, it should probably have a universal -1 to damage against any hard metal armor.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)16:45 No.17531356
    Oh we need us some knight vs. samurai.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)16:55 No.17531484
    I'm dubious. Right now the Katana occupies a unique niche in the sword family, and it's a good niche. It ends up working more or less how you'd expect a Katana would, and hard armor already has a +1 against cutting attacks, meaning that the Katana does St damage against hard armor. The ATN of 5 mitigates this a bit, but it definitely isn't overpowered, it's just conceivable to use such a weapon against enemies in chain.

    People are getting a bit too bent out of shape over this thing, really. It's just a goddamn backsword with worse defense and better cut, which is entirely reasonable given that the Katana is two handed.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:01 No.17531549
    The problem with that is "how you'd expect a katana would". It shouldn't be about expectation, it should be about how it truly IS. You can't cut through mail with a katana. You can barely even cut through flesh with a katana without the correct cutting technique (with which you then proceed to rape face and seperate heads from shoulders). I'm not a raging Japan-hater, I just think that since the game is supposed to be a close simulation of reality, the weapon should by and large work the way it really does rather than how popular expectation says it should.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:11 No.17531650
    You can barely cut through flesh with a LOT of swords without the correct technique, but notice how none of them are getting this treatment.

    Is anyone questioning that you can, with the combat pool of the average town guard, reliably impale a man in full plate with a smallsword? I see that nobody is.

    What about the fact that guys like Legionary Sulla can punch holes in full plate? Or that men can have TO high enough to make them immune to the average man's knife thrust?

    RoS's pretensions of realism are mostly smoke and mirrors. If you play hard Langshwert fencing, it's realistic. If you play ANYTHING ELSE it becomes The Mask of Zorro. It's time to stop fighting facts.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:23 No.17531783
    >You can barely cut through flesh with a LOT of swords without the correct technique, but notice how none of them are getting this treatment.

    That's just not true, though. With their thinner blades, most other swords intended for cutting can achieve solid results with a simple, intuitive cutting attack. Katanas have very thick blades, so in order to make use of the exceedingly sharp edge you have to make your cut perfectly every single time.

    >Is anyone questioning that you can, with the combat pool of the average town guard, reliably impale a man in full plate with a smallsword? I see that nobody is.

    I doubt it--you'd need a margin of success one degree larger (assuming the same ST guy wielding the weapon against the same TO defender wearing the same weight of plate) to inflict a wound with a smallsword than you would to inflict it with a katana. Town guards don't have CP THAT damn high, do they? I'd imagine eight dice is more than they can throw into an attack while remaining secure.

    >What about the fact that guys like Legionary Sulla can punch holes in full plate? Or that men can have TO high enough to make them immune to the average man's knife thrust?

    Oh, I agree here, those mechanics need a workover as well. Punches should have a cap on the degree of wound you can inflict regardless of success margin, and TO suffers from the same problem TB suffers in 40k RP. It should probably be full TO to soak damage from fists, half TO to soak everything else. That'd require a total redo of weapon or armor stats, though...

    >RoS's pretensions of realism are mostly smoke and mirrors. If you play hard Langshwert fencing, it's realistic. If you play ANYTHING ELSE it becomes The Mask of Zorro. It's time to stop fighting facts.

    I'm not fighting facts. I just want to bring everything else in line with the Talhoffer crap. What the hell is wrong with that?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:39 No.17531982
    What's wrong with it is that you're basically mandating deep system changes based on your opinion, to a system which already barely works, and I goddamn disagree with it.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:47 No.17532098
    Actually seen a vid of a katana cutting through mail. It was against a test doll thing so not sure how applicable (probably not at all).

    Just thought I'd mention.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:48 No.17532111
    Under your model, the Katana now has an ATN of 8, which is harder than cutting with a Rhompia (which is a five foot long one handed forward sweeping polearm), which does more damage draw cutting against plate than it does thrusting at it.

    Can we please think before we post?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:50 No.17532142
    If you're going to be wearing mail, you're going to be wearing leather. So more energy is absorbed and the contact time is increased as the leather will flex in relation to the point of force applied. Unless they built the experiment to replicate a human model then yes, it probably means fuck all.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:55 No.17532206
    It's not my opinion, it's a goddamn verifiable fact, that's the entire point I'm trying to make here.

    [Citation Needed]

    With ST + 1 base damage and a draw cut mod of +4, it ends up doing the same cut damage either way to plate. -1 for cutting a plate, -2 for draw cutting hard armor, -1 universal reduction against hard armor. That's hardly anything to raise an eyebrow at with an ATN that high. And if the draw cut mod is only +3 (also proposed, if you'll recall), then cutting and thrusting do THE SAME damage to plate.

    I have thought this through. You need to run the numbers before YOU post, sir.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)17:56 No.17532220
    At the very least, might open up the links for a follow-up shot through the leather.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)18:00 No.17532262

    You've never seen that vid, because no such vid exists. What does exist, however, is Deadliest Warrior Season 1 Episode 2, in which it was tested against chainmail and did no real damage whatsoever.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)18:06 No.17532352
    >using Deadliest Warrior as an argument for anything
    >even this

    In all seriousness, what pissed me off about that part was that they A) tested the cut, but not the thrust and B) appeared to hang the entire chainmail shirt in front of the pig, essentially forcing the katana to take on two layers of mail at once.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)18:09 No.17532388
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    Ironically the final fight of that episode, for whatever merit (or lack thereof) it has, shows off the proper way to take a guy down with a katana in tRoS--using whatever means you can, get in there and open yourself up a draw cut opportunity to the least armored place you can find, then SLASH THAT BITCH OPEN. And then finish the fucker off while he eats a massive Shock, Pain, and BL penalty.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)18:10 No.17532396
    You very clearly haven't thought this through at all, though. The Katana now does not have the utility for cutting through unarmored people that it supposedly had in real life, either, because the ATN of 8 is totally unheard of amongst swords intended to cut. The weapon is now unuseable, even within its intended role.

    It is no point to boast of either that the Katana cuts and draw-cuts the same against plate, because that is totally unrealistic, which is what you claim to be combatting here. It is very slightly superior at thrusting, not simply against armor but against everybody, because with an ATN of 8 without any of the associated bonuses other high ATN weapons have (reach, enormous damage, etc) thrusting is the only thing that the Katana can now do well.

    Further, I do not "recall" anything of the sort, you said +3 or +4. I assumed the one that came the closest to forgiving this travesty you have inflicted by at least giving the weapon some utility compared to your average stick, but if you would prefer to be guilty of making a weapon less useful than the Alpeen, I'll gladly convict you.

    Again, think before you post. You're breaking all of the design philosophies of the game to satisfy your hunger to downclass this weapon, and you're not even doing it well!
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)18:15 No.17532448
    I want to make it a copypasta, "Katanas are overpowered in tRoS - check out my new statblock"...
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)18:18 No.17532492
    >You very clearly haven't thought this through at all, though. The Katana now does not have the utility for cutting through unarmored people that it supposedly had in real life, either, because the ATN of 8 is totally unheard of amongst swords intended to cut. The weapon is now unuseable, even within its intended role.

    The "utility" you speak of doesn't exist. It's a HARD WEAPON TO USE even within that role. It requires a lot of skill and a PERFECT HIT to do any damage, even to an unarmored person. That demands a high ATN.

    >It is no point to boast of either that the Katana cuts and draw-cuts the same against plate, because that is totally unrealistic, which is what you claim to be combatting here. It is very slightly superior at thrusting, not simply against armor but against everybody, because with an ATN of 8 without any of the associated bonuses other high ATN weapons have (reach, enormous damage, etc) thrusting is the only thing that the Katana can now do well.

    Thrusting with a katana is no harder in real life than with most other swords not particularly optimized for it. And the cut damage against plate is about as realistic as it gets, because it's NOT GOING TO BE MUCH EITHER WAY due to all the negatives piled on and the high ATN.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)18:18 No.17532494
    So, I started reading this and it's quite a piece.
    We went from 'hey, what's better mechanicaly in this system' through 'UNREALISTIC? My FANTASY GAME?' to 'it'd be so much more realistic if you could draw cut through plate armour with katanas!'
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)18:18 No.17532509
    >Further, I do not "recall" anything of the sort, you said +3 or +4. I assumed the one that came the closest to forgiving this travesty you have inflicted by at least giving the weapon some utility compared to your average stick, but if you would prefer to be guilty of making a weapon less useful than the Alpeen, I'll gladly convict you.

    And yet you still demonstrated your kneejerk ignorance of the math by making this incorrect conclusion.

    >Again, think before you post. You're breaking all of the design philosophies of the game to satisfy your hunger to downclass this weapon, and you're not even doing it well!

    Again, think before you post. You're just mad that this statline gives katanas a much more realistic feel and bumps them off the god-tier pedestal that even this game puts them at in a way. Deal with it.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)19:29 No.17533319
    Personally I choose not to vary damage by attack type and armor type. The system's complicated enough without having to remember "oh wait, that's a cutting attack and it those vambraces were steel, not boiled leather, so the actual damage result was... Screw that.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)19:37 No.17533411
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)19:39 No.17533440
    Yeah, but if you do that you're treading close to undermining the main point of the system, which is to simulate the complexity and tactics of real melee combat. If that ain't your bag, I can understand--game isn't for everyone.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)19:41 No.17533454
    >The "utility" you speak of doesn't exist. It's a HARD WEAPON TO USE even within that role. It requires a lot of skill and a PERFECT HIT to do any damage, even to an unarmored person. That demands a high ATN.

    I'm interested to see your proof of this. Why is the Katana hard to use?
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)19:43 No.17533462
    It's been a while since I've felt genuine disgust.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)19:46 No.17533496
    What he's on about has some basis in fact, but it's not something you can really "prove" without handling a live shinken yourself and having a go at something cuttable. Proper cutting technique is really important with a katana, arguably moreso than with other cut-focused swords, because of the distal thickness of the blade. If you don't perform the cut correctly, you'll just sort of shallowly slice the target and not get anything done.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)19:47 No.17533512
    Not so long for me, but this bullshit takes the cake.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)19:58 No.17533639
    Hey, at least you weren't here when the thread was being shat in, assuming that's what you're talking about.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:06 No.17533728
    I wonder what a good stat line would be for knuckle dusters and trench knives.
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)20:07 No.17533733
    I could leave it at that, but I don't feel like it. I just shoveled human shit with my bare hands for five hours, and I spent the entire time wondering what sort of fight I was going to run when I came back, and then I come back, and this is what I get?

    Have you people learned nothing about this game since we started playing it, and you were just a rabble calling out random, ridiculous matchups to try and troll the thread by starting specifically this kind of argument? I was patient with you /tg/, I knew that you'd come around eventually, and realize that Riddle of Steel isn't about vindicating your techno-chauvinism by giving you a vehicle to lever you will against that of your buddy. It isn't about whether or not the exact dimensions of the Pallasch are simulated according to the writings of the great Polish saber master Bolesaw "Bufferstate" Steck, and it definitely isn't about your goddamn tedious love or hate of the Katana. I am tired of hearing about Katanas!

    Riddle of Steel is about intense, thrilling and detailed fights to the death, it's about Sarah Gizka fighting Vatican Commandoes on the rooftops of Rome, it's about Tebren Blackpoole desperately staving off vikings with his pike, it's about Buenos Fucking Grande the BEAR WITH THE POLEAXE fighting TWO CAMELS WITH RAPIERS, it's about The Bear catching a halberdier and twisting his arms and legs off, and Micheletto Stracci killing Germans with a goedendag!

    >Motherfucking Continued Goddammit!
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:07 No.17533737
    It's an optional rule and I treat it as such by not using it. In practice I've found that armor is already very effective and makes fights between reasonably-tough characters take too long as it is. Take two characters with arming swords and toughness about equal to each others' strength and AV4 mail is king shit. No need to make it effectively AV5, thank you.
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)20:09 No.17533766
    We're here to have fun, to stroke our fechtcocks to quivering fightgasm, I get that, but people, we're THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY. This is it. The off-site guys? They're fossils, where are their brutal fights to the death? Up Satan's asshole maybe, because that's the only place I haven't looked. We're the ones bringing the hobby back. We're the face of the movement of Steel.
    We can't afford to get into autistic arguments about minutia of the system over differences of opinion on system theory! This isn't D&D, where there are twelve million players and you can shuffle through the ranks breaking noses at every turn and never run into the same man twice! You're going to be in deathmatches together, you've already been in deathmatches together, you're brothers! You've shared the closest bond that any men can share, you've stabbed someone in the fucking groin together!

    Shake hands and be goddamn friends you fucking assholes!
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:13 No.17533821
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    I'm sorry, fechtbrother. Maybe your Katana idea was good. I was just tired of Katana arguments.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:14 No.17533833
    You're a good man, John Galt, despite your name.

    But I'm still curious. Did the camels hold the rapiers with their toes, their mouth, or some other part of their anatomy ?
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)20:17 No.17533872
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    I wasn't even there. I assume it was with their mouths though, because camels have such funny lips to begin with, and I liked to imagine them talking really awkwardly through the corners of their mouths.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:21 No.17533927
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    >I am tired of hearing about Katanas!

    Agreed! We should ban any discussion of the katana as it applies to Riddle of Steel, and forget it even exists, because it inevitably brings in the shit and isn't even really worth talking about in a HEMA game anyway, where REAL fighting is what is on the table.
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)20:21 No.17533929
    Perform three Hail Sullas and see me in the morning.
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)20:23 No.17533954
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    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:23 No.17533961
    >We can't afford to get into autistic arguments about minutia of the system over differences of opinion on system theory!

    You ARE a good man, Galt, but frankly? I flat-out freakin' disagree on this point. If we tread on eggshells around each other and don't get into the nitty-gritty of the system, we'll never be a full community, and tRoS 2.0 will never be a reality. And yes, that includes discussion on the katana, because it's a part of the game whether the weeaboos and westaboos like it or not. That is that, and it is what must be dealt with.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:25 No.17534001
    I was there, actually, but don't remember seeing it explained.

    And so I checked in that book, and camels have AG 6. In 3.x, it's dexterity 16.
    I wonder if camels are really that dexterous with any of their limbs.

    I don't like to argue about katanas, but can I argue about camels statblocks ?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:26 No.17534003
    Okay, guys, check THIS shit. I'm currently reading Patton's old 1913 saber manual. Anyone else wants a look, it's here:


    I'm going to study this a bit. When I'm done, I'm gonna try to figure out a statline for the 1913 Patton Saber.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:31 No.17534074
    It can be dealt with by not touching it. There's much more important (and interesting) things to do in RoS 2 than rewriting the weapons stats.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:35 No.17534123
    I disagree, I frankly think cleaning up the weapon stats is of primary importance. I don't agree with the guy above on the katana, but the idea of trying to bring things into the same realm of exactness as the game has for straight-up longsword/greatsword/bastard sword blossfechten isn't wrong.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:35 No.17534125
    >tRoS 2.0

    Has there been any progress on this?
    I have resorted to rewriting the Quickstart rules with the information on the wiki because one of my buddies is rather snobbish about his RPGs and wouldn't touch something with art as bad as the original manuals.
    >> Burrowowl 01/13/12(Fri)20:44 No.17534234
    My primary progress in the development of a revised Riddle of Steel system is by actually getting my play group to play the damned thing. We've got a very very small set of house rules that have been introduced on an ad-hoc basis (such as the Assist rule posted at http://knight.burrowowl.net/doku.php?id=rules:assist ). This is helping me better understand where it is that the rules-as-written don't explain things very well or handle things in an unduly-awkward way.

    Right now I think the main areas that need work are clarifying the interactions between similar skills (persuasion and sincerity come immediately to mind), as well as some means of fairly adjudicating the long-term effects of injury in a setting where you can't just have your Cleric magically patch everybody up.

    As for katana, I mostly agree with Galt. I'm ok with folks getting into pissing matches about weapon stats, I'm not the 4chan police, but I think it's unseemly to do so where it'll scare away the new folks.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:44 No.17534239
    Speaking of which, I do hope, barring far too much disgust to continue interacting tonight, we get that longsword vs. bastard sword technical bout.
    >> Burrowowl 01/13/12(Fri)20:48 No.17534284

    Agreed, but in a new thread. This one's already at 238 posts.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:51 No.17534319
    I think that was the plan anyway.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:52 No.17534326
    >that longsword vs. bastard sword technical bout.

    That would be difficult, as much of the time both of those terms refer to the same weapons.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:54 No.17534345
    tRoS differentiates them, but in a different way from what you usually see. Bastard Swords are Longswords (which are, in turn, two-handed cruciform swords) with a bit of development further towards the thrust. Have a look at Flower of Battle.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)20:59 No.17534405
    The damage system needs work as a whole.
    The effectiveness of armor in function of the strength of the opponent (and the type of his weapon), and of his proficiency, respectively to penetrate the armor and to hit a weak/unprotected area should be detailed beyond the +n/-n to damage.
    Thoughness is a bigger problem though.
    And environmental damage rules are sketchy at best.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:02 No.17534448
    I *hate* TO in tRoS. It's got the same issues with it that make Toughness Bonus in Warhammer 40k Roleplay aggravatingly stupid.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:06 No.17534515
    >And environmental damage rules are sketchy at best.
    I was thinking of damage by fire, heat and such, but I just checked falling damage rules... and it hurts less to fall in shallow waters than in deep waters...
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:08 No.17534533
    Okay...that was kind of interesting.

    M1913 sabers are double-edged, but the back of the weapon is only sharp for half the length. It says cuts can be made, but "rarely". Direct parries aren't really intended with it, because on a charging horse if you parry a strike you're going to be carried far away from your opponent, leaving you both alive (when what you want is him dead and just you alive). So they don't really teach those.

    This points to an awful Cut TN, a really solid thrusting TN (easily 6, maybe even 5 like a rapier?), and a ho-hum parrying TN that probably doesn't get diminished from parrying heavy blades. It probably doesn't use Saber proficiency despite the name, either...
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:13 No.17534604
    Mass Weapon, maybe, like falchions.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:14 No.17534613
    That's more or less the opposite of what i thought. I've seen some instances of Bastard Sword being used like hand and a half sword, for earlier swords which have a handle (barely) long enough for two hands, while longsword was used for the longer ones, with longer handles.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:17 No.17534637
    Oh don't be stupid, Mass Weapon doesn't even have--

    >Thrust (1)


    Though in all seriousness something this thrust-primary probably shouldn't have an *activation cost* to go with its main form of attack.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:18 No.17534646
    It's pretty much a case of 'call it whatever the fuck you like', since 'bastard sword' can mean any cruciform sword that can be used with one or two hands. Same goes for 'hand and a half sword' and 'longsword'. The 'orthodox' approach seems to be what you describe, though.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:20 No.17534677
    It's a fucking sabre, it doesn't even hang out with thrusting weapons, it's way too cool for that.

    Then again, RoS is kind of derpy in determining what you can and can't do with some weapons, so meh.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:21 No.17534702
    The example pic for a bastard sword in Flower of Battle is an Italian Spadone cross-hilted sword.

    I caution against applying too much abstraction here where there is a known specific mechanical difference between longswords and bastard swords, though. At least pertaining to ROS as it stands.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:23 No.17534716
    Yeah, but read the manual. It's all about impaling a charging Filipino or Villista from the back of your horse.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:23 No.17534720
    There's that, too. Then again, we're either talking about sword porn or about the game so it's easy to differentiate between the cases.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:24 No.17534735
    You're on a horse and charging. In that situation you can very well impale a Filipino with a spork to good effect, if you so desire.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:30 No.17534791
    Aye, but there's also drills for points to the side and rear where the power of the man is more important than the speed of the charging horse.

    Incidentally, the manual doesn't teach a left rear guard, because there's basically no fucking point--your saber is going to be in the worst possible position to defend no matter what you do and your enemy is going to have a straight shot at you, so if you get attacked from the left rear the course of action is to wheel yourself around so that you can bring your right rear guard to bear.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:33 No.17534827
    Allow me to counter with one thing here: Saber allows Thrust at no activation cost.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:35 No.17534843
    If these are thrusting drills, it'd be a strange sabre indeed.
    Then again, we shouldn't assume a cavalry manual teaches everything there is to know about the weapon. Meaning it might just use the Sabre proficiency.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:36 No.17534865
    ...so it does, so it does. And I see something else that I somehow failed to notice. Sabers, for whatever reason, ALREADY PARRY AT TN 8.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:39 No.17534899
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    It's the Patton saber, it's the weirdest "saber" ever invented (and yes, by "Patton", I do indeed mean George S. Patton Jr.). Here's a picture of it.

    Patton came up with the idea for this sword after going out to Europe as a Lt. Colonel and talking to a French cavalry swordmaster. At the time, the French were huge fags for the thrust, and Patton took the guy's words to heart and invented this saber based on them.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:44 No.17534948
    Okay, here's what I have, after seeing all this.

    Model 1913 Cavalry Saber, "Patton Saber":

    1H, Medium length, Cut ATN 8, Thrust ATN 6, DTN 8, Cut Damage ST-1, Puncturing Damage ST+2, Draw Cut Modifier +1

    Proficiencies: Saber, Rapier, Cut and Thrust
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:49 No.17534998
    So, it's great for fighting, I get it.
    Is it a good system to run a full campaign in? I have one based around fencing guild rivalries set up, but I'm still, pardon the pun, on the fence with what system to use.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)21:51 No.17535023
    Currently, it's decidedly...eh. The skill system works, mostly. Not great. And fights with multiple people at once are still kind of a bugbear.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:00 No.17535114
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    ...What. No, seriously. What. No, I'm sorry, you can sit right the fuck down and shut the fuck up. And yes, I know you've done a lot of good for the community and I AM STILL TELLING YOU TO SHUT THE FUCK UP. We had ONE guy last night come in and make a genuine fuss about katanas. ONE. FUCKING ONE. The rest of the discussion was pretty damn chill and interesting. And later on we have one guy putting forward a suggestion on how maybe high cutting accuracy isn't the best way to represent what the weapon does within the system, and sure! It got a little heated, but it was never about the "tedious love or hate of katanas" you're ranting like a fool about. So no. Sit down, shut your fucking mouth, and come back when you're not already pissed off about shoveling eight tons of shit or whatever and look at the actual substance of the thread more rationally.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:01 No.17535124
    A pity, since I can't think of any other system with good enough combat.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:08 No.17535178
    Ignore this if you want gritty, but 7th Sea has fencing schools who hate each other and all that IIRC. Though i guess if you want gritty you'd just need to adjust the wound system a bit and skip using brutes.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:11 No.17535214
    This. Hate to say it, Johnny boy, but as far as anti-weeaboo trolling goes? This hasn't been *that* bad, and mechanics discussion (about ANYTHING, not just katanas) is just GOING to get heated, because like it or nor this is still 4chan we're on here. We may be brothers, but we don't have to LIKE each other, eh? So just chill for a bit. Don't get discouraged or too upset.

    Forget it, Johnny boy. It's 4chan.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:11 No.17535216
    Thing is, I want not only gritty, but historical. Technical combat would also be neat. The closest I got to what I want is GURPS Martial Arts, but even that falls a bit short.
    >> Burrowowl 01/13/12(Fri)22:20 No.17535293
    Got any specific critique of the skill system? Particularly the Companion version of how skills work? I've found the skill system to be pretty flexible in actual play, with a campaign that maybe includes one or two fights per session and otherwise is skill and character-driven.
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)22:22 No.17535308
    This was exactly about a tedious love and hate of Katanas, you know how I can tell?

    I can tell because nobody brought up that a katana cleaving right through plate is no more ridiculous than a longsword cleaving right through plate, or a pallasch, or a yataghan, or a schiavona, or a saber, or a gladius.
    By the rules, all of these weapons can get enough successes to cut through plate. It isn't even unlikely, I have no doubt that you have witnessed this happen. The problem is universal, it isn't about the Katana, it's about how damage stacks in Riddle of Steel.

    But that wasn't what was brought up. No, it was the Katana, because that's what people like to fight over. It's hotbutton bullshit, and if the person responsible didn't know, then he fucking should have!

    I am angry because I had to physically COME IN HERE and TELL YOU that this was an argument that totally missed the point, and that both the proposer, and the person arguing against it, were wasting their time, and worse, being counterproductive.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:24 No.17535324
    What do you mean by Technical?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:25 No.17535334
    That's when the Lego bricks have the little holes through the sides, right?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:30 No.17535380
    Dude, seriously. Breathe a bit, center yourself, open your eyes, and read the thread again. It WAS brought up, specifically in the form of how Sulla killed that samurai with a blow from his cestus, and how a smallsword can ALSO do this with only one less MoS than a katana could.

    You will also note that the actual ARGUMENT about the katana that occurred had nothing to do with damage stacking, but rather the ease of its ATN and the function of its draw cutting modifier.

    Oh, and I agree, it was a silly thing to argue about, but stupid arguments just HAPPEN here and if you're going to get mad about that I suggest you find a new place to do this stuff on, with tighter moderation.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:31 No.17535383
    You can't be surprised when arguments about other things turn into arguments about Katanas.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:36 No.17535427
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    You're arguing about arguing now.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:39 No.17535452
    Just calling it how I see it. But we should probably just move on.

    (Incidentally, if I had the money to spot to a sufficiently web-savvy bro, I'd so fucking pitch in for building a proper RoS forum)
    >> John Galt 01/13/12(Fri)22:39 No.17535453
    You know I'm not going to do that. I am angry, not hateful. I'll stop this, but for God's sake people, remember who you are.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:41 No.17535467
    I feel tRoS needs a combat flowchart for easy use.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:42 No.17535476
    No harm, no foul, man, I just felt like it needed to be said, same as you.
    >> tRoS forum Burrowowl 01/13/12(Fri)22:45 No.17535506
    Proper forum? Like a little bbpress install? It's about half a step harder to set up than the Dokuwiki I've already got.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:46 No.17535521
    And now I *really* feel bad for being a poorfag with no Paypal account or credit card. That would be awesome.
    >> Burrowowl 01/13/12(Fri)22:47 No.17535526
    Like the one at http://erdtman.com/story-games/the-riddle-of-steel/inc/combat-check-list.pdf ?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:49 No.17535541
    Oh, and I mistyped. A smallsword can puncture normal plate with one MORE MoS than a katana's cut, not one LESS. Derp.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)22:57 No.17535627
    Yeah, all of this yelling aside I think that the Katana problem is really more of a systemic thing than a bad statline.

    As its stands, doing the whole ATN 8 thing is a genuinely offensive solution, because it means that even against unarmored peasants, you can't actually expect to kill someone with the thing. There has to be a better way. So let's do this the right way, let's FIND that better way.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)23:00 No.17535655
    Agreed, but we're going to need a new thread to discuss it in shortly.

    I kinda get the spirit of the idea (that there's not much margin for error when making your cut with one, but if you get it right you WILL bisect a man), but ATN 8 overdoes it grossly.

    And honestly, I kinda also agree with the guys who say it should be left the way it is, as it truly does not fuck up any more than anything else in the system as it stands.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)23:03 No.17535675
    >As its stands, doing the whole ATN 8 thing is a genuinely offensive solution, because it means that even against unarmored peasants, you can't actually expect to kill someone with the thing.

    But aren't halberds, bills, and other polearms still pretty fearsome in this game despite attacking at TN 8?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)23:18 No.17535805
    Halberds, bills and other polearms have VL or even EL range, and enormous static modifiers to damage.

    The katana has no such advantage. It's St+1, which is basically ST against any armor harder than cloth.

    The design philosophy behind all this is pretty clear, polearms do a ton of shock damage and get a big bonus to damage, swords do less, but have better ATNs.

    Now if I had to propose a solution, I'd point you to a running theme between 'light' and 'heavy' weapons. It's basically a microcosm of the weapon scheme of the game. Light swords (The Cut & Thrust) do less damage, but have better TNs than heavier swords (The Pallasch.)

    Now Katanas are actually pretty heavy, but they're also short, and two handed, so to me this seems sensible: Lower the St bonus to cut to 0, and let it keep its ATN 5.

    Is this going to stop the whole hard armor issue? No, but that's more of a systemic thing. We need to solve that one from above, not below. This little fix just makes the Katana require a lot more finesse to use because you can't trust its inherent damage bonus to carry it unless you draw cut (by no means a sure thing) or devote a lot of dice to making the perfect hit.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)23:25 No.17535881
    More elegant than the other guy, but it kind of boils down to a straight, flat nerf--which I don't think is entirely appropriate either.

    You're right, we need to work on systems and leave the weapons as-is for now. Anything else kind of raises its own issues--or worse, opens up room for people trying to nudge the thing down to where they can use the game to "validate" the anti-weeaboo stance by making the weapon useless.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)23:29 No.17535923
    And I think that's part of what Johnny wants to avoid, ain't that right if you're still around, Johnny?
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)23:43 No.17536057
    If there's anything that John's enraged speech did impress upon me that I categorically agreed with, it's that we can't be waiting for him to come on and give us the thumbs up or down for everything we do. We've got the judgement required to discern the sensible course of action.

    And right now, the sensible course is to leave the Katana alone and look at the other side of the equation. It's obvious in retrospect, there's no way to 'fix' something if the system that surrounds it is broken. It's like rushing around the titanic changing lightbulbs while it's sinking.

    The solution must be to revise the armor rules so that they actually make sense, rather than fiddle with the weapons. When the new thread happens, that must be our course of action.
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)23:46 No.17536094
    Approval or disapproval isn't really the point, the point is that it's a fucking dumb thing to use a game for and I hope that's well agreed by the smarter people here.

    And, well...yeah, certainly, but honestly I kinda just want to see some more fechten too. *chuckle*
    >> Anonymous 01/13/12(Fri)23:56 No.17536195
    What's all this bullshit about impaling Filipinos with sporks? Sporks deserve worse than that. Much, much worse than that.

    I should know what I'm talking about. I myself borrowed a genuine spork from the break room for 0 yen (that's about 0 dollars) and have been waving it around like a goddamn bull penis for almost two years now. I can't even cut slabs of fried spam with my spork.

    Chinese sweat shop workers take five minutes hammering out a single spork to produce the most useless utensil known to mankind.

    Sporks are thrice as dull as forks and thrice as unwieldy, too. Anything a spork can cut through, a SPOON can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a butter knife could bisect a stainless steel spork with a single vertical slash.

    Ever wonder why Europeans don't bother using sporks in their eateries? That's right, they're too efficient to ditch well made forks and their tines of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers used forks instead of sporks because their utility was embarrassingly nonexistent.

    What am I saying? Sporks are simply the worst utensil the world has ever seen, and thus, require worse stats in the Riddle of Steel system. Here's the statline I propose for sporks:

    Weapon: Spork
    Length: Hand
    Attack TN: 8
    Defensive TN: 8
    Damage: ST -5p

    Now that seems a lot more representative of the thrusting power of sporks in real life, don't you think?

    tl;dr = Sporks need to suck more in Riddle of Steel, see my new statline.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/12(Sat)00:00 No.17536246
    Patton Saber fag here. I laughed. I can start a new thread if y'all want, too.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/12(Sat)00:04 No.17536293

    Are we autosaging?
    >> Anonymous 01/14/12(Sat)00:06 No.17536312
    No, but we're so close we're not likely to get much more done in this thread before we are. I say go ahead.
    >> Anonymous 01/14/12(Sat)00:07 No.17536321

    I chuckled.
    >> Pattonfag 01/14/12(Sat)00:20 No.17536476
    New thread here, for those keeping a watch on this thread:

    >> Anonymous 01/14/12(Sat)00:33 No.17536624
    Make katana draw cuts require proficiency 7. This would allow only characters with with an A or B proficiency priority to start with the ability to pull off a draw cut. Considering you also need an A or B an social class to afford the sword, that will mean some serious trade-offs for anyone planning a bisection-based character build, and will satisfy anonymous' complaints about the difficulty of making cuts with a catana. Balanced.
    >> Burrowowl 01/14/12(Sat)01:05 No.17537044
    Nothing more getting done in this thread?


    This is /tg/, where SHIT GETS DONE

    Namely, somebody asked for a forum. Here, have a forum. It isn't much, but it's free: http://tros.burrowowl.net/
    >> Anonymous 01/14/12(Sat)01:10 No.17537106
    >Considering you also need an A or B an social class to afford the sword

    Uh...no, actually even a peasant could afford one with his starting cash (if only just). Weapon prices are in silver, and starting wealth is in gold. And it's 20 silver to 1 gold, making weapons and armor somewhat comically inexpensive.
    >> Burrowowl 01/14/12(Sat)02:07 No.17537622
    Sorry about that; there was a little problem with the forum actually sending out passwords to new users. Using the "lost your password" tool should work now if you had previously tried to register.

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