>Was it viewed as glorious, or terrifying to be conscripted into the legion?
Depends on which legion you got into. There's a difference between garrison duty in Italy and a Germanic or Dacian shitfest. I imagine it was much like modern conscription, something you just went through. For some, joining the army was quite an opportunity as well. Also, conscription is less of an issue as time progresses and the Legions turn professional.
>How was it viewed in Rome to be a soldier (Heroic)?
Rome was largely a military culture and soldiers were at least respected. Roman men were expected to serve a term in the military before assuming any responsibilities.
>Time periods recommended
It all depends on what feel do you want to achieve. Please elaborate.
>Generals
Depends on time period.

Depends. Pre-Marian, especially during the early imperial days of the republic and the conquest of Spain, it was a meatgrinder. If you own land, you go to war as a footsoldier. Service is compulsory. This period has an increasing number of reports, polemics, etc. of Romans bitching about not having seen their family in 30 years. The republic threw away two generations of men in Spain alone.

Post-Marian, you get more and more professional troops, and service opened to the landless mob (capita censi). Service was now elective, I think. This of course led to massive armies with no land to return to, who identified with their service and eventually their generals, leading to the era of "great men" dominating the state with armies at their backs, of course culminating in Pompey, Caesar, Marcus Antonius, and Augustus. Service in this era would have been prestigious, and it carried legal benefits for serving a full term (ie. citizenship for you or your progeny), but mostly it was marked by soldiers becoming very very loyal to the individual generals who led them.

>>16842802
Post-Augustan (ie. Imperial Rome), service is now fully elective and the legal benefits are streamlined and set in stone. People generally know how long they plan to serve (eg. 25 years) and why, when enlisting. It is a highly prestigious profession because Rome is at the height of its power and they get regular workouts on the frontiers, and with each successive imperial succession crisis, the soldiers are paid more and more. I think it was Severus who said "treat eachother well, pay the soldiers, despise everyone else" to his sons. The army in this period was marked more by martial pride in one's legion or army (eg. huge, huge rivalries between Rhine and Danube the armies - see Bedriacum), and an increasing degree of influence over the state. Rebellions and revolts could now be serious threats, and the first thing any new emperor did, especially if it wasn't a natural succession, was bribe the holy hell out of the soldiers, sometimes on the order of many years' pay.

>Was it viewed as glorious, or terrifying to be conscripted into the legion?
Pre-Marian, glorious and honorable, but very tiresome and compulsory service was a major issue behind several reforms and revolutions, and one could say behind the collapse of the Republic altogether.

What we were hoping to achieve, or experience rather, would be the height of the power of the Roman Army. A time where the Romans were seizing new and foreign land rapidly, possibly incorporating some mysticism into the mix.

Speaking of, was it common for soldiers to worship a certain deity? Mars?

>Well known generals?
Pre-Marian:
Patrician aristocrats, mostly. Officers and cavalry (equites) would be the well-to-do, landed elites, because in this era you paid for your and supplied own equipment. Also, Scipio.

Marian, as said, leads to the great populist generals like Crassus, Pompey, Caesar, Marc Antony, Augustus, basically anyone who can get themselves a military command by being one of the "populares," the populist faction in the senate, and wheeling and dealing the political scene properly. Caesar got all his commands and government assignments through political dickery, then built a military career off of it, and he's basically the archetype.

Augustan generals are tough, because he limited the expansion of the empire, and successor emperors felt threatened by great generals, out on the frontiers, with armies loyal to their person. See Agricola and Corbulo for examples of what happens to one of these guys when the emperor gets antsy.

>>16842844

And see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_of_the_Four_Emperors for what happens when the /generals/ get antsy.

>>16842823
>would be the height of the power of the Roman Army.
This would be the Augustan system, when they were 300,000-400,000 strong, receiving phenomenal pay, and constantly working out against eachother and on the frontier. The military SHARPLY declines during the Third Century Crisis, and they never really get it back up to shape again.

You might want to go for the era of Caesar, since he conquered and incorporated Gaul, Britain was next, Parthia is still a strong state to the East (Caesar planned to attack it and Crassus tried and failed), still plenty of hostile states in Anatolia and the Balkans. As for seizing land rapidly.. Caesar singlehandedly created Western Europe in the span of 20 years. Enough said.

>Speaking of, was it common for soldiers to worship a certain deity? Mars?
Mars, and each Legion had personal protective and inspirational deities, also the Emperor's person, possibly most importantly. Losing your aquila was a big fucking deal and it was kept in a shrine during peace.

>>16842823
If you're going for Imperial Rome, Mithra was quite popular. Mars, of course, as well as the Emperor's Genius (soul/guardian spirit) and that of the commander and Legion. Any foreign warrior, guardian or luck-related dieties are a possibility too, people had a more utilitarian approach to religion back then.

The legion depends on what time period in Rome that you're going for. They kicked ass for a while, but then started to become corrupt when appointed as the Emperor's royal guard. The process was slow, and the first thing that they got rid of was the helmet to save money. Then they cut back on metal armor being provided to frontline troops in favor of silver and gold armors for the legions based in Rome. Eventually you had those on the front line helmetless and wearing leather armor at best while the core legions were constantly having their golden armors reworked to a size that makes your average neckbeard look skinny.

Awesome stuff, many thanks. But what about devastation of the ranks, when a legion disobeyed and soldiers were killed to teach a lesson or keep discipline? Who would do this, usually? Would it be anyone in particular such as the offender and/or weaker recruits?

I figure that'd probably be best bet for a TPK if things somehow get all out of fucking control.

>>16842823
I'd say that you'd then want to go from about the time of Julius Caesar's conquests (the Gallic Wars) up through the middle part of the first century. After the slaughter of three legions in the Teutoburg Forest during Augustus's reign, conquests started slowing down and Rome began switching to a more defensive role. The Teutoburg Forest could make for a pretty interesting setting, creating a survival-horror scenario, or you could have your soldiers be a part of Germanicus's expedition to punish the tribes responsible and reclaim the lost Eagles.

As for the gods... Mars would have been reasonable as would Jupiter. Some soldiers also participated in the mystery religion of the Eastern god Mithras. Don't forget that if you set it during Imperial Rome some of the Emperors may also be deified, such as Augustus.

>>16842927
Decimation is the word you're looking for. It'd be one in ten soldiers executed by the commanding officer of the offending unit. This happend extremely rarely, though, usually on charges of desertion, treason and so on.

>>16842927

The reason decimation was so scary was that every tenth man was killed, be he hero or coward. They'd drag you out and have the others beat you to death.

>>16842927
I can't offer an answer on a whole-scale decimation of a legion or century, but it might have been done by the soldiers themselves to each other. If an entire unit was being punished, the traditional way (as I understand it) was by the luck of the dice.

I'm pretty sure that a soldier who displayed cowardice and fled from battle was to be beaten to death with clubs by his squad-mates for endangering them all. Could add some extra incentive for your players not to run away, or make for some good roleplaying if one does.

>>16842937

Could I get some elaboration on the survival horror aspects of this particular forest?

>>16842980

How would it be scary, I mean. Overwhelmingly bad odds? Bad equipment?

>>16842980
Think X-COM on a really fucked up mission to get in the mood.

Go listen to the podcast "Hardcore History," specifically the series about the downfall of the republic. From what I gather, being a soldier in a legion was a good and bad thing.

Good: you get to loot and kill. If you survive, probably a good way to go places.

Bad: if there isn't fighting going on or it isn't going well, you don't get to loot and you'll probably die. And when/if you go back home, your farm/homestead's probably gone broke and been bought up by some rich guy.

>>16842992
Imagine for a second that your units gets broken up by more barbarians than you;ve ever seen, you commander gets massacred, your standards stolen and you buddies scattered. You're alone in a damp, dense and dark wood with about five thousand wild men who now hunt you and only your kit to help.

Watch the first few episodes of Rome as a good example of how legionaries were treated during Caesar's time. The whole damn lot of it is good, granted

>>16843015

emperorsaveus.jpg

Oh, even better plot devices unfolding. What religion were the Germanic tribes? Pagan? Druidic?

>>16842992
You're here, it's foggy, it's dusk, setting up a good camp is very difficult, your lines are distended, and suddenly a million billion Germans pop out of every fucking tree, thicket, and hill, and start hurling javelins at you. Lines are broken everywhere, no command structure is preserved, everything is completely FUBAR from the first 30 seconds, and you don't know the terrain and can barely see the enemy.

Or, like the other anon said, this is what happened to your predecessors, and you're here to get their aquilae back.

For the Republic!

Might have a few more.

http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Army-Social-Institutional-History/dp/0195328787/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&i
e=UTF8&qid=1320463114&sr=1-3
I enjoyed the hell out of this, although I mostly took for granted that it was factual/represented the best of our knowledge.

>>16843038
Pagan. We know little about specifics, though, which is all the better for supernatural RPG elements.

>>16843038

Polytheism similar to the Norse pantheon. Wodan, Teiwaz, Frej, etc.

>>16843050

That looks amazing.

>>16843043

This would be horrifying but just imagining literally millions of giant hairy barbarians popping out of trees like clown-cars made me laugh quite hard.

As for the Aquila being taken and getting it back, how would the Romans operate in thick forest? Burn it down? Can't imagine shield-walls work well in there.

>>16843038
Proto-Teutonic. When what we assume to be early German tribes invaded into Roman territory (the Teutones and Suebi) and gave them a lot of trouble, there are reports of them worshiping gods that sound very similar to later German and Norse gods (ie. Wothen/Woden/Odin). And burning wicker men, eviscerating/torturing prisoners, hanging prisoners, etc., all later Germanic methods of glorifying their war gods.

If it helps, average Italian would be like 5'2", average Celt would be like 5'7", average German would be like 6'0"+.

>>16843061

Awhhh yeah scary black magic heretics.

I'd imagine they all look like the bear guy from True Grit.

>>16843085

(Teutoburg-anon here)
>>16843038
The German tribes at this time were pagans, I believe. Most druidic stuff was up in Britannia. They also had a habit of nailing captured prisoners to trees as offerings to their gods.

Like other Anons have said, picture that nasty, dark, close-in forest, it's been raining for days and it's muddy as all get out. Your legion, and the others with you, are on your way to winter quarters and are stretched out into a long line winding through this forest. Then these barbarians pop out of no where in coordinated attacks, throwing spears at you and your friends, running in to stab a bit, then running away again. Then they do it again later. And again. And again. Until your whole group is running to get somewhere else. Anywhere else. Your comrades-in-arms are falling everywhere around you, as are the camp followers (wives, families, prostitutes, merchants). Keep in mind, Anon, how the Legions were trained to fight: as a cohesive block, where you formed up and relied on all those shields around you as you closed ranks with your pilum and your sword. This sort of one-on-one fighting isn't what you trained for, while your Germanic foes are more than used to fighting one-on-one without much to weigh them down.

Think about this: You know that opening battle in Gladiator? Where the Romans advance all pretty-like and then suddenly go into Hollywood-fighting? Yeah, that giant melee sort of thing where the unit is all broken up would probably have gone pretty bad for the Romans. The Roman commander who defeated Boudicca in Britain specifically refused to engage the Britons unless they had open clearings and boy, did he cut through them when he engaged.

Actually, that could be another interesting idea. You're in a small garrison when Boudicca gets her rebellion started.

>>16843071
the roman didnt operate well in dense forest

they got raped by german again and agin in those situation

they did however have small elite unit "antesignani" that operated as open order infantry

Oh yeah, and OP, no lorica segmentata

never ever

>>16843129
They also had metric shittons of auxilliaries (light infantry, archers, scouts, slingers etc.). Then again, Romans relied on discipline and formation fighting more than combat skill. You don't normally get to use those in a forest. Germans were basically BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD at the time and highly skilled as individuals. They also might have used superior equipment for the situation.

>>16843151

Armor suggestions for the dreaded forest? Would it be down to leather as the Capital Romans had all the shiny?

Also, what of siege weaponry? Any danger of friendly fire in such a dense area or would the trumpet commands be enough to command?

>>16843156
I think it was more the issue that Arminius was a Romanized, Roman-trained military leader who galvanized the tribes to set that shit up. He knew exactly what he was doing and he knew exactly how to wipe out an infantry train on the move. Perfect ambush.

Didn't Hannibal do something similar at Trasimene? Catch them while they're all strung out, on the move, hit them before they can form up, and push them into the lake.

>>16843072
I think the wicker-men were more with the Druids, but I could be wrong.

>>16843071
If I remember, the writings about Germanicus's campaign to punish the tribes that attacked basically tried to force them to engage in the open. When they couldn't, they'd find a village and burn/rape/pillage.

Oh, I forgot to mention earlier. The guy leading the slaughter of those legions in the forest? Yeah, he was a native German who had been "Romanized" and at one point a right-hand-man to the overall commander of those legions who thought he was an amusing little suck-up. And by "one point" I mean a few days before the battle. Quintillus Varus wasn't the sharpest crayon in Augustus's coloring box.

>>16843164
Roman arms and armour were standardized. They've actually found the location of the Battle at Teutoburg, and many of the finds have Roman gear, I think. Could use that for reference.

Romans had the best siege train in the ancient world. Look at Masada. As for heavy weaponry, they made really effective use of ballistae. Organizationally I doubt there'd be friendly fire issues.

>>16843164
>Capital Romans had all the shiny
That's bullshido.
Lorica Squamata is what you're looking for, maybe a few breastplates for officers.
Siege wepons require two things to use: time and space. Getting ambushed by howling barbarians in a wood is a bit.. suboptimal for artillery.

>>16843164
na its just that, while the segmentata have a very distinctive look, it is improbalble that it saw wide, if any, use

Most roman legionaire used galic style stuff, such as chainmail with heavy shoulder pad, mortefino helmet and the (in)famous hispanic gladius.

How could roman mysticism counter Germanic (BLOODFORTHEBLOODGOD) paganism? Weren't the Roman/Greek gods known for being asshats who really didn't care?

>>16843226
All ancient gods were dicks. Even the women. The greco-roman ones were one of the more tame, actually.

>>16843210

So I'm guessing raining fiery death into the forest somehow is out of the question?

>>16843164
These are mostly tribesmen so the most common footsoldier might have only had some padded clothing, if anything at all (hell, some Britons/Celts chose to go into battle bare-ass naked with their hair shocked up and their bodies painted). Some of the wealthier/luckier few might have some leather armor and the really rich/lucky ones could have some metal armor that they bought or scavenged somewhere.

I don't think the Germanic tribes used or had siege equipment like what you're thinking Anon. Certainly nothing like a ballista or an onager, the most common thing they'd have had would probably be rams which don't do much vs. a person.

>>16843226
Actually, romans gods and greek gods are very different

they just use the same iconography

>>16843156
>The cowards! The fools! We shall take away their metal eagles!

>>16843226
Soldiers were probably some of the most superstitious and religious people in the empire. They probably didn't bother much with "ZEUS PROTECT US" type religion, more along the lines of minor deities of the Legion itself, the spirit of the Emperor, the embodiment of Rome as Victor, and Mars/Jupiter. Their standards were huge deals, very revered, and they were the mailed fist of the emprah and glory of Rome.

Germans might even have been pretty similar in their worship.. Soldiers with martial deities usually share that common ground.

>>16843245
When you try to conquer Germans, they just go set up their tents in a different part of the forest

When you try to shoot at/engage Germans, they just move the warband to a different part of the forest

>>16843266
>Rome as Victor
I think you'll find that it's Roma (female), as in the rather popular battlecry 'Roma VIctrix!'.

>>16843226
Off the top of my head, I'd say keep some aspects of 40k since you're referencing it. Stalwart, stubborn faith in their divine backing. I'm not sure if Julius Caesar had been deified yet, but the ordinary Greco-Roman pantheon could work just fine as well.

>>16843245
Correct. I forgot to mention that you should probably disregard the vats of flaming stuff in my description of the "Gladiator" fight.

Anything similar to some sort of Battle-cleric in the legion? Anything that could be equal to some sort of mage or patron of a deity?

I wouldn't want Romans to be using much magic other than buffing with some sort of God's grace.

>>16843276
Surprisingly, that tactic seems to work just as well almost 2000 years later.

>>16843243
Especially the women, sometimes.

Look up Artemis. She was the bitchiest of them all, at a guess. Compare:

Athena is seen by somebody deliberately spying on her while she bathes. She takes away his sight, but gives him the gift of prophesy to make up for it.

Artemis is accidentally spotted by her most devoted follower bathing. She turns him into a stag and sets all his hounds loose on him, to tear him to shreds.

One of these things is not like the other.

>>16843324
So tsun tsun~

>>16843285
Nothing historical, though if you want to use the spirit of the legion/century/etc as a point of worship for the soldiers, then you could use the signiferi as an option for those who could call upon the powers of the divine. These were the guys who carried the icons of the centuries, the legion, the emperor, etc.

>>16843363
Also give them fasces. Just for fun.

>>16843226

That's slightly more Greek, I think. While the Romans did subsume many Greek deities, their versions tend to be more overtly paternalistic. Mars, for example, is a much more beneficient "warrior-protector" god, while Greek Ares is more of a kill/maim/slaughter god of bloodlust.

>>16843363

So.. glorious golden blinding rays of light vs terrifying barbarian blood magic. Sounds awesome.

..But I'm guessing the Romans never got those Aquila back? Or did they?

>>16843389
Not quite. At several points in the Iliad and Odyssey, Ares is a whole lot more than carnage-slaughter-all-the-time. The poet probably just needed an antagonist to pair up against Athena.

>>16843422
C'mon, I'm not just an antagonist.
I'm an engaging individual in my own right, playful if a touch misunderstood.
Just worship me, c'mon!
Alright, good, now kill that guy, and everyone he likes.
Don't look at me like that, just do it.

>>16843401
If I remember they got at least one the eagles back, possibly two. It's been some time since I really did a lot of work with Roman stuff, we read Tacitus in my university Latin course and he talked about the battle in the forest and the revenge campaigns that followed under Germanicus but that was 4-5 years ago at this point.

So.. BBEG ideas? I feel like you could get really Horus heresy with this, the Germanic leader being Roman trained and all that.

-The party as well, their story. I'll probably run them as the backup for the already dead in the forest, only to repeat their mistakes, separate and then ohgodthey'recomingoutofthetreesrun and try to lead them farther into Germanic lines where they either choose to go after the Aquila or run the fuck away.

I am not the GM.. They shall refer to me as Caesar..

>>16843492
What, seriously?
That's a pretty easy call.

romans were pretty accepting of religion. they'd prey to local dieties when traveling. They just didn't like the idea of monotheism early on.

>>16843492
For BBEG ideas try looking into Arminius, Alaric, Jugurtha, Hannibal, Pyrrhus, Ardashir, Mithridates, Attila, Boudica, Zenobia..

Maybe read the Roman envoy's account of personally meeting Attila:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/priscus1.asp

>>16843492
>I am not the GM.. They shall refer to me as Caesar..

>>16843492
Yeah, if you're going for the Forest kick, then I'd say Arminius should definitely be the BBEG. Have the PCs start out as members of the first group though, that way they can get all cozy with Arminius first only for the big reveal later on. Have him say he's going to scout ahead or something so he can go rally the troops. The PCs eventually see him leading the Germans and personally kill Varus. Then they can either decide to DIE HEROES DEFFS or escape to report the defeat and risk punishment for cowardice.

I like the Caesar idea, though.

>>16843595
Oh, that does depend on either the ability of your players to suspend their out-of-game knowledge OR not know much about history.

>>16843595

This is a terrifying statue.. and It makes me want them to fight Varus' twisted cardaver at some point.

Pic: The Defeated Varus (2003), a sculpture by Wilfried Koch in Haltern am See, Germany.)

>>16843650
You know, most of the legions were left unrecovered in the forest. We can see the remains of the battle today. And we don't know much about early Germanic paganism. Which I am interpreting to mean that black magic and necromancy were possibly a feature.

>>16843650
>Any of you guys majoring in ancient history?
No, why?
>No reason. No reason. Alright, today's mission is another routine skirmish across the frontier. The sergeant says to bring your mudding boots.

>>16843650
Dooooo eeeeeettttttttt.

Oh, oh, and put one of the Legion Eagles in place of his head!

>>16843736
>enlivened metal eagles as his familiars/guardians
>make metal screeching/scraping noises when they move

Also,
>TO ME, SONS OF AENEAS! FOR THE EMPRAH!

>>16843767

All I could think of (Pic)

>>16843805

>>16843824

Something else to remember anon though it is rather minor. Serving in the north was not really a dream position for the legions. The reason being that the loot in Germania was not as desirable as the loot in the east. The gold, spices, and general wealth of the Grecian Mediterranean was really something compared with the relatively small amount of lootable wealth in the north. Remember that looting was very important for your average legionnaire as it supplemented his pay.

Something else which is really not talked about a lot; for the vast majority of a soldier's service it was incredibly boring/tedious. It was back-breaking work broken up occasionally by terrifying and bloody battles. And battlefields were truly scenes of carnage and death. It's hard for the modern mind to grasp thousands of men engaged in close combat hacking and slashing. I don't believe too many ancient writers emphasized this but a battlefield after the end of the battle must have been a horror to behold as well.

Someone already mentioned it but the Hardcore History podcasts about the fall of the republic and the punic wars are really helpful for anyone trying to imagine ancient battles.

>>16843879
Yeah, Eastern frontier legions were considered kind of babbyshit because they got to live in unbelievable opulence and luxury. A place like Antioch was fucking paradise on earth to an Italian farmboy.

The Legions were used a LOT for levy work and corvette labour, building roads and such. We do know that they were fed very well though, lots and lots of meat and wine.

To add to your description of battles, one thing I would definitely emphasize is civil war. Any battles between Roman legions are unbelievably horrible, just godawful, slow, protracted grindfests, because both sides are fighting in the exact same style without breaking. Whittling and whittling away in horrible shock action. Read the description of the second Battle of Bedriacum in Tacitus and it's just gutwrenching.

The thing with Germans and Gauls is they fought in loose formation, relied on initial shock action, and routed fairly easily. If a Roman army could withstand the initial charge of a gang of Celts with broadswords, on an open field, they could easily dice them up and steadily push them back until they broke. Romans were the best fencers in the world, bar none.

Thanks, /tg/.

Awesome SPQR thread.

Thanks, OP, that was a pleasant discussion. There's an archive request put up, if anyone would care to vote for it.

Voted

>>16844210
>There's an archive request put up, if anyone would care to vote for it.

You need to get votes to archive stuff on sup/tg/ now? that sucks.

Easymodo is back up, and archives every thread on /tg/ including this one, just an FYI

>>16844423
>You need to get votes to archive stuff on sup/tg/ now? that sucks.

I know, its horrible that you can't stick every drawthread or "what if we crossed 40k with X" thread up there for all to see!

>>16844435
>>16844423
You're both wrong.
sup/tg/ doesn't need votes to archive, that's chanarchive.

And Easymodo is still dead, it just has a redirecter now to the foolz archive that /a/ set up.