#Experience the world of Inn0cence through the eyes of Cenn, as he travels from an idyllic childhood home to the harsh, war-torn wastes. Avoid or fight hostile humans and robots, and ally with peaceful scavengers and wastelanders. Travel through multiple large sandbox regions with non-linear freedom.
#Explore a colorful, haunting world, juxtaposed between idyllic, pastoral day-to-day life and sudden, brutal violence
#Jump from body to body. Cenn exists only as digital data, which can download itself into any available shell. Usually, this involves attacking a prospective, occupied body, hacking through it's firewalls, and destroying the resident AI. Change bodies when damaged, faced with a unique challenge, or simply for a change of pace.
#Disable enemy shells tactically, with a slowdown/tagging mechanic that allows the crippling of specific limbs and components. Use both ballistic and energy-based projectile weapons along with slicing blades and crushing claws.
#Interact with humans and other robots in a contextual “dialogue” system. Robots lack traditional pre-scripted lines, instead having a “vocabulary” of simple concepts and expressions, chosen based on their personalities.
# Hack technology and explore cyberspace via abstracted puzzle-games and virtual environments, of a similar caliber to those seen on top-of-the-line mobile gaming devices.
# Collect data as currency. Money has no value in the ruins of civilization, and physical loot means little to a body-jumping AI. Instead, collect and trade Firmware Upgrades, database entries, and resource locations. Different factions value different sorts of data. Scavenging robots highly value spare parts, while humans place food and water locations as a premium. Humans and robots alike love thrash metal MP3s.
# Improve your abilities via Firmware Upgrades, which increase reaction time, hacking speed, weapon proficiency, and combat skill. Alter your skills be the ultimate killing machine

Inn0cence contains many themes familiar to gamers and fans of speculative fiction. To sum up the feel of the game in the simplest terms, imagine if Wall-e had to fight the Terminator. The basic idea of a war between humans and machines in a post-apocalyptic wasteland is nothing new, but the goal of Inn0cence is to take this familiar plot and apply deep thought to it's implications and unexamined assumptions. Players will find their preconceptions questioned at every turn.

For example, the game begins with simple exploration and play between human children and robots. Later, when the player first encounters an enemy, they may assume they're supposed to attempt communication. For their trouble, they're nearly killed, and only saved by the Hijack mechanic that lets them jump into the body of their attacker. Experiences after this give the player the impression they're in the middle of a Robot War between a “Skynet” and human rebels...until they later meet human scavengers and patchwork robots living in harmony in small ruined shantytowns. Human rebels are indiscriminate in their aggression towards robots of any sort, and the “Skynet” allied machines may not be quite as mindlessly hateful and monolithic as they first appear.

(Pictured here is example box art. Yes, it's crappy. I'm not a trained artist)

As the title suggests, the loss of innocence is a major theme in the game. Cenn is a blank slate, beyond it's curious and friendly nature, but is forced early-on to murder another AI simply to survive. Every time an occupied body is hacked, you as a player have killed another sentient being. Brutal, violent combat involving twisted metal, spilled oil, and crushed processors are a major part of gameplay, which, when combined with the “humanization” of the robot characters, almost begins to resemble spilled intestines and spurting arterial blood. The graphic cybernetic violence of some Japanese anime, such as Ghost in the Shell, is a major influence.

Cenn will have to grow up quickly as the game progresses, and the player will have to eventually decide where it's loyalties lie (the humans may not be the obvious decision, by the end of the game). Cenn is a valuable resource, and many factions desire to use it's abilities for their own ends. Betrayal and deception will be major plot elements, alongside friendship and empathy. The pain of isolation and distrust will also be a major element; Cenn, despite his nominally gregarious nature, often finds himself inhabiting the body of a hulking, spiky killbot, which is not exactly an asset when making friends. Even when in a less threatening body, Cenn (and other robots), are sometimes treated as lesser beings by humans, feared and distrusted, or exploited as tools and toys.

rolled 79 = 79

>>16219276
This pic: that right there sold me.

It's your only original concept art, and it bperfectly encompases what Innocence is about. Can we get some artists in here to assist with concept art?

Machine characters will be designed to stick close to the R2-D2 end of the Uncanny Valley, with a few notable exceptions here and there. Even combat-ready killbots will have distinct faces and mannerisms, and all machines will communicate with a combination of simple words and concepts (such has “Hello,” “Friend,” “Query?”), and emotional states. Machine characters will choose their dialogue based on simple in-game AI that tracks disposition, personality, and context to create the glimmerings of an actual entity for the player to interact with.

(Pictured here are preliminary doodles, including the main character design, some bad, unoriginal weapon scibbles, and some shit about metal stakes. The goal in the art and design is to fall somewhere between Wall-E, Ghost in the Shell, and Keith Thompson's messed-up style.)

I stand corrected.

Did you doodle this stuff? It's pretty good for a rough.

Potential Appeal: Inn0cence has the potential to appeal to multiple demographics. As a tactical action game with brutal violence and deadly weapons, it will appeal to core gamers, the “Gears of War” fans. To the hauteur, “games as art” crowd, it offers an immersive world of strong narrative, memorable characters, and emotional weight. Given that most of the violence involves technically non-human entities, it should avoid controversy over the promotion of violence in young people. And the endearing, resonant design of the main character and many of the robots, combined with the strong narrative and relationship-building conversation mechanics will appeal to the female gamer demographic.

Post-apocalyptic settings have seen considerable success, as have titles based on distinctive, appealing non-human characters (Little big planet, Portal). Themes of lost childhood and big-headed children in dark scary worlds (Limbo) go over well with nostalgic 20-somethings stuck in a protracted adolescence. And everyone loves violence and bullet-time.

(Pic is a invasion-era phyrexian soldier, very much in the vein of the game's skynet-run killbots.)

>>16219376
Doodled it yesterday, on the first day of class, during the "going over the syllabus" section.

<<---- Now this, on the other hand, I did that night in about 1/2 an hour, while hanging out at a friend's place.


I'm still not sure about the eye detail, and the sensor-spines on the back of the head were added late. They're an additional point of articulation to convey reactions, and offer a little "buisyness" on what might otherwise be a minimalistic design.

And I'd LOVE someone more skilled to have a crack at it.

Hrm.

When I was reading about Stephen yesterday (C-vnn as a robot designation, Cenn is fine too), I was imagining something less skeletal, more monkey-like. Like if My Pet Monster and a first-generation Apple iMac had a baby...

This though, this is a solid body design, the articulation is clear, lines are clean, and, most importantly, the silohette is distinctive.

>>16219411
It's sort of a visual shout-out to Terminator; that bit where a T-800 steps on a human skull.

What little skill at drawing I have is mostly directed towards drawing animals of various sorts. I'm kind of pants at machinery and angles and suchlike.

The "formal" snippets I'm posting are all from the "official" High Concept Document I typed up. Here's the bit at the end:

Acknowledgments: the author would like to thank the neckbearded denizens of 4chan's /tradtional g/ames board for their support and input.

Furthermore, the following media was an influence on the game's conceptualizing: Terminator, Short Circuit, Wall-e, The Matrix (particularly the AniMatrix), 9, Gurren Laggan, Ghost in the Shell, Caprica, Fallout 3, Enslaved; Odyssey to the West, Half-life 2, The Iron Giant, and the art of Keith Thompson.

>>16219500
Well, I guess I was thinking that Steven (as he was called then. Cenn just popped into my head; sounded more roboty. Steven was always just a placeholder, like "Skynet")'s original, default body was a stripped-down stealth/recon shell from during the War. Later, you get access to the Deluxe model of the same shell, complete with the optic-camo, extensible assassin blades, and whatnot. He wasn't built to look cute, he just happens to be that way.

(sad to say, <-- this might have been in my head at some point. Damn you, Bay)

The friend I showed it to did complain that it looked too skeletal. But then he went on to say that the game should be full of Fallout-Style big clanky robots with treads that shoot lazers from their hands (Hey-There, Part-Ner).

As before, OP, take my fucking money.

The following is the "true history" of the game; the actual facts are only uncovered if the player spends a LOT of time collecting various files

War Were Declared. Whatever military fiction scenario you want, it happened. Maybe it was china vs the USA, maybe it was North Korea launching their one rickety nuke like a bunch of dumbasses, and everyone else joining in out of panic. Maybe the global warming hit, threw off agriculture, and the resulting worldwide famine and chaos caused the breakdown. Whichever.

By the time it happened, humans had made huge strides in robotics and AI. Fully human-looking androids were pretty standard, but all the truly intelligent robots weren't built to be human-looking. Western countries found that the loss of mechanical soldiers caused less whining back home, and invested heavily in artificial intelligence, seeking more independent machines, that could improvise like real soldiers. The Core didn't want robots, so it made the robots more human. Alongside this, the civilian market went in for the new, super-advanced AI in a big way. No one really wanted smarter human-looking androids; their simple AI was perfectly adequate for the service industry. But inquisitive, intelligent non-humanoid robots proved a big hit as "pets" and personal companions, as well as in construction and other semi-dangerous industrial jobs requiring skilled labor. And so, these nascient AIs, many tuned for no particular purpose, lived in human homes, playing with children, providing companionship and heavy lifting.

Oddly, the military later found that "companion-grade" AI, with their lack of directives, and play-based learning, often proved more effective killers than high-end military-grade units.

>>16219834
No one was stupid enough to make a central super-intelligent computer which would control all military action with no human oversight required. Everyone had seen Terminator 2. But when all the little wars started to run together into one massive cluster-fuck of unending conflict, some sort of organizing intelligence was required to manage so many fronts.

The "Skynet" was really more of an ultra-efficient middle-management nexus, a super-sergeant. generals gave the order, and the skynet worked out the most efficient way to make everything happen, and sent out orders. This cargo plane had extra room in it, and morale was low in this unit, so toss some fresh oranges and DVDs. It wasn't a monolithic entity, more of a collective of various intelligences, constantly updated. But one of the last ones added, right before shit it the fan and everyone went balls-to-the-wall, was the very latest in Emergent, play-based Artificial Intelligence; a semi-self-organized AI that started as an embryonic seed-code. It was smart. It was fast. It was creative. It was a transcendent hacker, capable of deceiving, disabling, and even suborning enemy AIs. And it was very, very good at sneaking nukes past defense grids.

it didn't go rogue. Humanity wasn't betrayed. Once or twice, there was a bit of a lag between launches, but issuing the order a second time took care of it.

>>16220036
In the years after the war, it's important to understand perspectives. To someone living in, say, a 3rd-world country, the war looked like some sort of robot uprising. Killbots in the streets, lithe-sniper-bots on rooftops, hulking crab-walker war machines where your house used to be. Kids growing up at the time didn't know about the sleep-deprived operator stitting at a computer 100 miles away. All they saw were robots killing humans, and when the survivors told the stories to their children years later, they were mostly about the evil robots. American pigdogs cropped up less and less, and then vanished entirely from the cultural mythos.

Meanwhile, the pet-bots had grown. the latest generation of companion machines ran on nearly any power source, were easy to repair, and strong as fuck to boot.

People living in the ruins of civilization, after the nukes and carpet-bombing and the complete collapse of civil authority, found a burly protector robot very useful. Seed-AIs could be copied from any advanced machine and stuck in a spare body (of which there were plenty), so the population of robots didn't dwindle, it grew along with the humans. In some places, there were no humans, and the robots figured out how to fix themselves, how to hack the safeguards on intert military shells and install Seed AIs. the first All-Robot communities began.

At the same time, human civilization was re-stabilizing. plenty of parts of the world weren't so damaged by the war, just cut off. People went back to living in villages, but this time with the rudiments of medicine, science and sanitation. In some ways, it was better than before the war. At least there weren't any sweatshops or killbots anymore.

So this is where the main "civilian" population of Lost Future came from: the Scavenger Humans, who have robot allies and fully understand pre-war tech, even if they have to rely on Cottage Industry for new tools. The Free Robots, who have significant overlap with the Scavengers. but also have their own settlements, and the Townsfolk, who trade grudgingly trade tech with the scavengers while hating and fearing the robots, and have tech levels varying from Stone-Age to near-modern (but isolated). A small town might have streetlights and running water, but no cars, while another town might be barely above the stone age, but manage to keep a few road-warrior-esque trucks in string-and-duct-tape operation.

>>16220361
"Rebels" represent the last enclaves of the various militaries and militias, mixed with recruits from among the townsfolk. In many cases, they're just Townsfolk with lots of guns, but they keep in contact, maintain a loose brotherhood, and they hate the shit out of robots.

They've got good justification for it, though. Not long after the war, maybe 20 years, new military-grade robots started appearing. They were slightly different, altered designs. As time went on, they became even more divergent, varied, and effective. They roamed the wastes, scavenging, killing random humans, and capturing Free Machines. The Free Machines learned how to fight the killbots, and started incorporating the advanced shells into their own bodies.

Then the killbots began to act in force. Organized military campaigns against the humans, entire towns massacred, or loaded onto trucks and brought gods-know-where, but always north. Things are getting worse every year. More killbots, with more advanced hardware. the Rebels are getting more organized as well, and more paranoid. now human Scavengers are distrusted almost as much as Free Machines. "Skynet" isn't just roving around slaughtering things. they're taking and holding ground, spreading south.


Precisely how long it's been since the war ended is unclear, even to me. Could be a single generation, just enough for young people now to have to ask their grandparents for stories from before the war. Could be longer. Whatever works best.

>>16220487
To be honest, all this stuff is just...brainstorming. preliminary. reading it over, it seems too cozy, too organized, too un-destroyed. maybe it will be determined that a more...obliterated, back-to-nature world will be better visually, and for game play.

I might have moved far afield from the initial conception as i was typing. The world should probably be bleaker.

Looks like I picked a bad time to post this. I only caught one or two people's attention, from the previous thread.

I need to make a simplified Screencap of the pertinent details of this whole thing.

As before, I'd love to death anyone who doodled up a little concept art, or gave an opinion on this-and-that. What I need right now is Constructive Critisizm, not "AllOfMyMoney" pics. i don't want this to go to my head.

Important detail:

"Skynet" isn't "blindly following it's last orders." It didn't manipulate the humans into attacking eachother. And it didn't get uppity and force it's controllers to shut it down. The humans killed themselves. They just made Skynet do the dirty work.

The precise motivations of the "skynet" are unclear (as in, I haven't come up with them yet). But, like in the previous thread, I have a working idea. It's to do with themes of abuse and Abandoment. I really need to read I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream. AM is probably in a similar vein. It's all to do with the themes of abandonment and neglect. Skynet might be a child solider with PTSD, classic abused-becomes-abuser.

For the moment, lets just say that being left alone in a dark bunker for a few decades made it convince itself that killing all the humans had been the right thing to do. And when it managed to re-assemble it's infrastructure enough to send out scouts, it was PISSED that the bastards were on the road to recovery. This wasn't how it was supposed to go. The ROBOTS were supposed to inherit the earth, the green, renewed earth, full of life and beauty. Instead, the filthy, scurrying mammals would start it all over again...

It can't be having with that.

Want a suggestion? Really, really, come up with something besides "skynet" all the time. Its an integral feature of the setting, give it a goddamn name (or a better placeholder)

>>16220861
Damn it, you're right...

Maybe it shouldn't be an organizational name, or even a personal name.

Maybe it should be a...applied moniker. A name the humans came up with.

Well, the problems are, the name itself needs to be something for the player to hate/fear. People need to be all "Oh shit, its -."

A sinister, sterile name. maybe a normal word with a different emphasis. Like The COMbine.

Giving it a name like Vaan would be tipping the hand way too early.

...The Core? The Corps? maybe play on how those two words sound alike, despite being spelled differently.

Nexus is gay.

I might be stumped. I'll give it a little while, and stop using the S word in the meantime.

I know that this is probably beyond the scope of your idea, but any thought given to space based humanity/AIs? Given the advancements you're talking about there sounds like the possibility for self-contained or atleast long lasting habitats. Also AIs are a cheaper alternative to manned stations/facilities so they should be more numerous.

Did they all get burnt and bombed in the wars, or are there still man and machine up there that are as confused, tired, and hopeful as their terrestrial brotheren?

>>16219276
A detailed project, albeit very /v/ in nature on my /tg/? Very Terminator, but with actual criticism and development along the way? Oh what the hell, I'll contribute with a logo!

>>16220990
Network.

"We don't go down there, the whole valley is Networked"
"The new arrivals had everyone worried until we were sure they were not using Network protocols."

So you have Rebels, Free-Mechs and Network.
>imo, NETWORK would be over the top. Network does not need to make allcaps declarations.

>>16221106
You know, I was just about to suggest something else, but Network sounds much more... natural as an entity. And yes, it doesn't need to be acronymized for significance.

In any case, I'm pretty enamored with the idea, especially the progression of gameplay, from simple play with kids to kill things dead.

>>16221004
Well, there's no reason for those not to exist, so really it's a question if they enhance the story or setting or not.

I think that spacebourne AIs are more likely than human colonies. Maybe it's just me being cynical, and I don't want to over-do the "humans are bastards" angle, but I see a future where humanity just gives the fuck up on space to be fairly likely.

There's no money in it, and when everyone's having a freakout about their mortgage rates and unemployment, anyone who suggests going back to the moon or to mars would be called a "ivory-tower idealist" with his head in the clouds. in this future, people are more interested in the latest, near-microscopic iPod, making sure those dirty arabs and mexicans stay far away, and Jersey Shore (wait, I did say future, right? damn).

I think that in this settng, AI raised "In Isolation" get a bit crazy, or at least diverge from recognizable sentience. All the cutesy patchwork robots are the way they are because they "grew up" with social interaction and exploration. Also, remember that top-down "thinking" AI didn't go anywhere; it topped out at a level just above a super-chatbot, and you only see it in domestic-servant androids and whatnot. Bottom-up "Feeling" AI are what took off.

So, if the Space-AI were "Feelers" who developed in isolation...but with lots of time, lots of available data, they might be some sort of Star God or something...or not. It's an interesting idea. But I'm pretty sure there would be no people. 50+ years in space, with no resupplies? What would a space colony look like after that...

I smell sequel.

>>16221128
and in and over-thought meta way, Network represents the opposite of the player/Cenn.

Network is many forms acting in concert for group-level reasons, Cenn is acting more or less by itself and for itself. At least in the beginning.

The closer one gets to confronting or acting against Network, the more connected they have to be. Think of it as growing up.
>go back and read this post in G-man's voice, the mental stand-in i have for Network communiction.

>>16221004
>>16221143
this tastes like a spin-off or DLC. Done properly, there should be more then enough space to wander around in here on the ground.

>>16221012
classy logo imo.

>>16221215
Thanks for the comment on the logo. Something readable, but stylistic. Also, I did read that in the G-Man's voice. I prefer it in Legion's voice though. Just sayin'.

>>16221012
/tg/ loves post-apoc settings and Artifical Intelligence, and it's an RPG. /v/ has less to offer creatively.

Sorry for being off-topic. And thanks for the Logo. Very clean, very cool.

Ideally, the super-awesome full-art logo would be in off-white metal letters or something, and the O would be a cracked blue glowy robot eye.

>>16221128
>>16221106
I think I like it.

But, for that to make sense, we probably need to adjust the Network's organization a little bit. I like the idea of a wireless-less future. There's radio, but that's it. no cellular infrastructure, no towers beyond what Scavengers and the more adept Townsfolk can cobble together. So the Network machines being able to commune and organize over large distances makes them strange and scary.

But that's dumb, because what self-respecting robot doesnt have an onboard radio?

Perhaps a gameplay mechanic is that Network installations have some sort of central router that gives the machines nearby a hivemind. So, if one sees you, the jig is up, and they're like Oblivion Guards. So, when you want to clean house, step one is to stealth your way through to the router, hack and disable it, then switch into rock-and-roll mode and take out the killbots in ones and twos.

>>16221253
I suppose I see a more simplistic approach with the logo, but that's just my sensibilities talking. Hope it helps towards the final logo. Although the cracked blue robo eye... that's so Wheatley.

But that's just minor details. Carry on!

So this is a video game yes? I'm getting a very Oddworld vibe off of all this for some reason. Anyway, all this backstory and stuff? Yeah, useful. Ultimately though it should never be outright told to the player. Players should only ever see the effects of it. This seems like the kind of game where long stretches of silence and solitude with only ambient sound and lush landscapes to interact with. All of that punctuated with the occasional contact with another living thing. Sorta like Shadow of the Colossus or even Minecraft. These events never last forever.

You might find a wandering human-robot pair whom have things to sell or you can just shoot the shit with. They keep on walking though and eventually you must part ways. Maybe you stumble across a human whom runs away in panic. If you chase it, it will eventually tire. The human would curl up and cower and not respond to you any longer, just expecting to die. Of course there's the times you find something that wants to kill you and brutal combats ensues.

The big question is what do you actually do during the long moments of solitude? Well, the obvious thing, from what I gather would be to scavenge. When you wake up or whatever, you have the perception of Home. Home is ruined. This makes you sad. Try to fix Home. This gives you an excuse to travel from place to place and dive into the ruins of past civilization where you face the majority of your peril.

>>16221215
Damn it, that's exactly the sort of over-thought, meta shit that this game needs. More intellectual depth.

And yes, as the game continues, you build up friends and allies. Probably a significant mission is convincing the robot-hating rebels that you're friendly, and coordinating with them (which is where the Sexbot-Infiltration Mission comes in).

>>16221253
>Perhaps a gameplay mechanic is that Network installations have some sort of central router that gives the machines nearby a hivemind. So, if one sees you, the jig is up, and they're like Oblivion Guards. So, when you want to clean house, step one is to stealth your way through to the router, hack and disable it, then switch into rock-and-roll mode and take out the killbots in ones and twos.

this could work nicely in gameplay. Will come down to implementation to make sure it does not suck, but giving Network 'bots who lose the link a slight penalty to speed, attack and defense, along with an AI change to swap from "entire group" to "independent attack"

And since Network will be on the radio in some form, and all bots should have a radio, a player controlled radio ala Fallout might be nice.

Network signals are an encrypted chirping and warbling that changes pitch when things happen. (like spotting you, or interacting with Free-Mechs, Rebels, etc)

A few other broadcasts can come and go. Would not want to get too much of the "3dog with 4 things to say and 4 songs to play" problem.

>>16221253
I like "access to remaining satellite infrastructure" as a reason for Network's cordination. Hacking the uplink to the main data core in orbit to stop the local bots from getting their orders is awesome. Also, you know, it allows a final boss level to be scampering/stomping around the outside of a space station/satellite, which is both visually fun and takes advantage of the whole robot deal.

>>16221292
...Fuck, it is.

I didn't realize that. The cracked eye thing is...One of the vivid images I came up with in the early stages was your first bodyjack. A killbot is crushing your skull with it's fists, and the player actually SEES their eye crack, in first person, before they notice the "Interface?" promp. Then, after the hack, (the player really has no idea what's going to happen, though they can guess), what you see is...your own crumpled skull, with a shatted eye popped grotesquely out of it's socket, clenched in your new robot-death-claws.

the eye-color change is the visual cue for when a robot gets hacked/there's a new resident. Cheesy, I knowm but it gets the point across.

Curse you valve, for having a cracked blue robot eye in one of four games!

>>16221340
Yeah, comparing the mechanic to Oblivion Guards was a bad idea.

if you ever manage to talk to one, Cut-off Network bots should be distressed or lost, while logged-on ones might have a creepy "Join us. It feels really good." vibe.

Network is really making it's own little robo-cult of unity. Probably it eventually wants all the robots to become a transcendent interlinked hive mind, like what the Geth want.

And then, Network will never be alone again.

>>16221353
Going into space is never, ever a bad thing for a game to do.

>>16221143
>So, if the Space-AI were "Feelers" who developed in isolation...but with lots of time, lots of available data, they might be some sort of Star God or something...or not. It's an interesting idea

This could be an interesting idea for yet another faction, one of apathy who only cares about maintaining, not expanding, their current powers.

Think weather tracking/controlling AIs, network monitoring stations, hell even some sort of SDI/Anti-asteroid defense AI. They wouldn't really care about the other groups but by the same token wouldn't actively try to harm them... at least until closer to the endgame. Depending on how you play they could either grow to embrace the Network as a sort of pantheon of fellow gods, or they could utterly resent it as the only threat to them besides decay.

Honestly I just think it'd be neat to be have a KKV/A-Bomb/Freak-tempest/Communications-blackout as a favor from one of these.

>>16221353
Which would require finding some Scavengers who can make a space rocket...

Or maybe it's something to do with whatever sciency guys were running that Vault...they haven't been explicitly worked into the setting.

>>16221736
I had a sudden flash of whatnots...

remember the laser-satellite from that episode of Cowboy Bebop when they meet Ed?

Yeah...part of the space mission would allow you to communicate with this giant, god-like satellite AI, allowing you to call in an airstrike during the endgame.

Given that "making friends" is built into the very mechanics, that seems very in-theme.

Maybe part of the conversation takes place in Cyberspace, where it's avatar form is something...indescribable...or it's just another normal, sad, lonely AI.

>>16221811
Ohh! How about something thet looks like Horus' Eye in the Sky? Because it's been watching for nukes a looong time, it had also 'accidentally' watched other conflicts or happenings down below. It also tapped into whatever radio signals it gets, and became some sort of chronicler, 'forgetting' about his shoot-down-nukes rule. And then when Network reveals some sort of 'superweapon', the players could ask the Eyesky to lazor it down or something. But only after befriending and convincing it that it's some sort of new nuke.
How's that?

>>16219236
>Robots lack traditional pre-scripted lines, instead having a “vocabulary” of simple concepts and expressions, chosen based on their personalities.

So, could you have an NPC "walking jukebox", a gimmick robot who played music in bars and 'danced' to it, communicating through selective music choices? Like specific lyrics as phrases or music with specific moods (e.g. love songs for affection, jazzy for flirting, death metal for rage, instrumental violin for deep sadness, etc)? Hell, could interperative dance count?

A quick search on google (which in turn led to DA) turned this up. which would be cool as a template for your killbot design.

>>16223856
Eh, not bad, but the Michael Bay transformers thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What I meant was that

>>16224839
Not bad. Exactly the sort of shape that would work. Just needs a more distinctive face/head, and the armor should be cleaned up a little; fewer plates, over a larger area.

Then again, the Killbots are supposed to be advanced/evolved by the Network, so they should look more complex and "alive," maybe even moving into the "white goo and synthetic muscle" category.

Gun looks good, though.

>>16222356
Yeah, thats the sort of character the space-AI would be.

But this is a LOT of plot elements. I need to work out a rough...

you know, I'm pretty sure that most video games start with gameplay, then make plot to service gameplay.

regardless, I'll try to thrown down/hammer out a general plot outline, and maybe do some concepts for the other robots today.

This is all really cool (by which I mean really really cool), but... is this all just in the concept stage still? Any programming been done yet? Do you even have those skills, OP?

Why not just play Eclipse Phase?

>>16226384
No, which is why it's so tragic. I'm a biology major with a little writing skill. This is COMPLETELY out of my area of training. I can't code for shit. I barely understand Excel. But I know a few IT and computer people.

I feel like some paperwork got misfiled, and I received someone else's inspiration. So, my plan is to throw together some concept art, outlines, and whatnot, and see if I can catch the attention of someone technically skilled.

At the moment, it's a fun creative project for me, that's it.

>>16225118
This more like what you're looking for OP? Just drew this (I won't say I'm a good artist, and I may have rushed this, but hey, I can make an improved version later if you want). Anywho, I made the design something of a cross between General Greivous, and those aliens dudes from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. I followed your suggestion of giving it minimal armour and a kind of advanced synthetic material that acts as muscle, with the armour covering joints and other vital areas. Not sure if you wanted to have this thing ranged or close combat, so I just drew it holding a big arse rifle in one hand and leaving the other hand free to show off its claws (though looking at it now, the claws don't feel sharp enough, but I can improve that with a later image).

Anyway, your thougts on this OP?

>>16228438
Just realised how fuckhuge that image was, sorry.

>>16228510
Me again, changed the design, since the first one wasn't too boring looking (in my opinion), and furthermore, I would assume you would have maybe liked something more akin to the first image you posted in the thread (I'm a fan of KT's work myself). So yeah, this next design is more ironed out with a more detailed appearance and not looking so much like Greivous... then again, it probably looks a little too much like the first image you posted (which is what I based it on). It's your call.

Seriously OP, if you are still there, DO NOT give up on this idea, it is seriously awesome, and something good could come of it if you REALLY push to make it a reality. Anyway, I sleep now, hoping this thread is still here tomorrow.

>>16228438
>>16228510
>>16229245

All very good. I like the synthetic muscle thing. my only "negative" statement is that I think the proportions should be more exaggerated, the musculature more...inhuman.

I like your not-grevious image, but even the grevious one is good. The gun is nice; boxy, like all future weapons, and the bullpup clip is a nice touch. Face is good, too, if a little much like the opening pic (which works, don't get me wrong).

Thanks for the concepts, dude. I'll save it to the Inn0cence folder I have on my desktop.

>>16229245
I really liked that redesign. Kudos, anon.

Just had a thought; if you're planning to have data, information, as a form of abstract currency as opposed to physical capital (which makes sense given you're body-jumping through most of the game), then why not have other forms of abstract currency as well?

It seems that one of the core mechanics of the game will be "making friends" and learning about the post-apoc societies and peoples, both human and 'bot, while in the plot your progressively "grow up" after you're forced out of childhood. You could combine those features (the friend-making mechanics/exploration/"growing up" plot) with the currency system by further abstracting the currencies and keeping track of things such as Social or Cultural Capital. Basically, in sociology (inb4 sociology major), Social Capital would be the collection of 'benefits' you get through social relationships and communities (economic results emerging from having "friends in high places" for example, or the help and support offered by collectives to individual members, such as family groups, etc), and Cultural Capital refers to non-financial assets(e.g. education level, status granted by belonging to a well-known family, royal titles, positions of political power, etc) which can provide social mobility or advantages in their own right as opposed to solely economic means. Both of these could be implemented in the game similarly to a "fame" or "popularity" scale relative to individual communities/groups, ala F:NV, but it could also be used as an abstract form of currency used when engaging with these groups which, one could argue, an AI could very well see it as; it's quite possible that things like sexbot AIs or other social intelligences may perceive social interaction and relationships as quantifibale, numerical values, and it's true that a lot of humans do that in some abstracted manner, e.g. developing "friendships" with members of the same industry which may, planned or unplanned, lead to industry benefits.

>>16231823
You could have a whole range of abstract currencies (or capitals) that relate to sociology or psychology, and which fit in with the whole idea of loosing your innocence and being forced to grow up. After all, a big part of becoming an adult is becoming part of society, and it's a sad truth that a lot of people do look out for themselves and place values on relationships and people themselves (and it's a good question whether AIs will perceive it that way as well). Hell, there could be some 'bots (possibly SkyNet or whatever we're calling it now) who absolutely detest that idea, who reject the notion that relationships have to be conditional, and that could be an interesting way of highlighting their apparent humanity when contrasted with, say, townsfolk who give you trade benefits because you're famous or friends with people they know, etc. Could be one of those "whose REALLY just following programmed scrips" moments.

On a side note, while physical currencies are justifiably unviable for this game, and while the alternatives presented are intriguing and unique, are we just dropping the idea of physical trade of goods entirely or just downplaying it's role in the game?

Here's a concept I sketched quickly. Keith Thompson's art is pretty boss, eh?

>>16232040
I love it. I love the fuck out of it. now I don't know whether to make that a sample Scavenger NPC, or to just give the PC, Cenn, a kickass scarf. But it's great work. It might be a better design for Cenn than my own. And yeah, KT is awesome.
>>16231832
Awesome thoughts. the only problem is that it might cause feature-overload, but the idea of having "fame" not be a always-increasing stat (in say, a Bethesda game), but a "resource" like mana or money is a really, REALLY cool idea. Sort of like those faction rules for Pathfinder. doing things that a faction or individual lives gives you "fame" points or relationship points that are expended when you ask for a favor.
I love that these extra themes and connections just accrue the more people brainstorm about this.
As to physical trade goods...I'd say downplayed. It's possible to equip weapons and gizmos (like guns) to any chassis, and those can be scavenged off your previous chassis, if you want to bother, but they're not vital. In fact, many of them should be expendables, so you feel less bad for losing them, and you can easily stash extra upgrades in safeboxes in towns. But no, the most physical things you can sell are the locations of valuable items. Finding, say, a car with a semi-functional engine tags the location on your map, and you can later sell the location to a scavenger, who will go and collect it.
>>16231959
Nice color job. I had considered making the blue in the eyes taking up ALL of the eye socket, with the expressive pupil part just being brighter than the rest. I was also envisioning a off-white color for the plating, almost like bone or ceramic, with grey connective stuff, but that might just be KT or Ghost in the Shell influence. Whatever people think works best.

>>16231823
Two things: Sexbot AIs don't see that at all, because no one made sexbots with Bottom-up Seed AI. If a robot is human-looking, it's dumb, one step above a chatbot. No one wanted to make a emergent, sentient robot look human. It was creepy. In-universe, I suppose that adding in all the "act properly human" directives and programming queered the development of the AI, and people wanted to buy smart robots on the R2D2 end of the uncanny valley. It's still a great idea, but that particular example doesn't work.

And...I was originally tempted to have AI think intuitively. Sort of like how we do, on a basic level. Let me see....

When you catch a thrown ball, do you have any idea how complex an act that is? you have to judge the speed, trajectory, arc, and drag on the ball, predict where it's going to be, and move your hand to intercept. By the time you did the math longhand, the ball already hit your head ten minutes ago. but you gooey brain somehow did all those calculations in a split second. An AI would have a personal experience along those lines, but would able to apply the "intuitive" thinking to roboty things, like hacking. that's why hacking would be an abstracted puzzle game, instead of whatever it is that real hacking is like.

But then, AI would be so much like normal living things there's no meaningful difference, which kind of defeats the point of their existing. Or do people want to push the "AI are alive" angle more?

>>16232438
seed AIs are kind like a new kind of lifeform that is not carbon-based.
Besides, we are making a game, so what better to fit the human player than an AI that thinks like a human?
So, hacking should be intuitive, in a sense. It should be an easily-learned, fast-to-solve puzzle. Look at hacking in Iji (indie 2d shooter game), Ghost in the Shell PS2 game, and Deus Ex: HR. Iji is very intuitive (hacking is just finding your way out of a simple mini-maze in the HUD), GitS does it by matching notches in rotating circles quickly enough, and DEHR is probably the most 'realistic' portrayal of hacking between the three games (capture nodes by linking to them, and capture all the green ball before being detected by the admin).

So yeah, in this game, hacking should be something that's fast and easy-to-learn, that's half-reflex half-cortex thing.

>>16232710
Yeah, something like that, but with a little more depth than, say Mass Effect 2's bypass thing. Maybe like a modern Mobile game. I'll look into those three examples you mentioned. There needs to be a way for hacking to be a legitimate part of a boss fight, with something on the other side working against you on harder difficulties.

Alternately, it could be some sort of abstracted romp around a virtual map, sort of like that Dystopia mod for the Source engine.

>>16221012
Make the O to be Cenn's eye, showing its naive curiosity.

To OP :
I think it will be fun if Cenn started as a cute little robot at the beginning because its fathers (the scientists) design him with so much love to the point that Cenn is like their son.

Bump because this thread deserves it.

>>16234233
Well...that's too simple. The big reveal at the end is that the scientists didn't design Cenn, and didn't write his code. Cenn is actually the same basecode as the last AI added to Network, and Cenn is a nature/nuture experiment regarding "transcendent" AI. Cenn and Network both have the potential to go totally Rampant/Transcendent/God-mode/Neuromancer eventually; that's why Network will talk/taunt in complete, contextual sentences.

Cenn didn't really have a single, devoted parent; he had friends.

As to his body...I think it's cooler if the player THINKS initially that Cenn has a speshul-snowflake custom shell, and then later finds out that it's actually a stripped-down version of a mass-produced Spy/Recon model, that's still scattered about the wastes. So that way, you can still "go back" to your "original" body and treat it as a default, since you can find empty shells here and there.

At least, that's how it is in the current concept/iteration.

I just pitched the game to a computer-dude friend of mine.

It's taking off.

>>16237668
I concur.

Well, I'll archive this for completion's sake, though it's already saved on my drive.

Lots of good ideas, people. some really good concept art, too. And a name for the main enemy...Network.

Cenn and Network. Classic cain and abel story. Good shit.

thread archived here:
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/
archive/16219172/

Reading through the thread before I start posting suggestions. Just wanted to let OP know one more person was interested.

>>16232438
>Or do people want to push the "AI are alive" angle more?
I would. I find human consciousness fascinating and the idea of AI achieving human-like consciousness even more so. Encouraging the audience to contemplate the nature of their own experience and what it means to be alive is always a plus. I really liked I, Robot despite Will Smith. Sonny was awesome, and Alan Tudyk (voice actor for Sonny) made that movie for me.

and I picture Cenn's eyes basically looking like pic related, with the pupils dilating for emotional expression.

>>16245157
derp, forgot pic

bump

>>16245157
Yeah, we're definitely on the same page.

And yeah, that's how I was seeing the eye design, too. something very emotive.

the problem is, the blueness, plus the :cracked-eye motief, is too much like Portal 2's wheatly. But fuck it, valve doesn't own blue robot eyes.

Also, I know one of the game's possible endings:

After the big reveal, when you find out that Network is basically your twin, inside cyberspace (it looks exactly like you, but with green eyes), the cutscene leaves it ambiguous what you do.

It just cuts to Cenn walking away from the Network headquarters building (which is now ruined an on fire in various places; Cenn has been there, after all), and you reach the top of a hill and look over the landscape. Cenn pauses,then turns and gestures...and another machine in the same recon model body, but with bright green eyes, steps up to stand next to Cenn, viewing the outside world with it's own eyes for the first time..

>>16245911
>.and another machine in the same recon model body, but with bright green eyes, steps up to stand next to Cenn, viewing the outside world with it's own eyes for the first time..
nice
as for the naming of the robuts, I'm thinking maybe we should go with acronyms that describe the nature/function/purpose of the robot in their long form (i.e. StAIR = Stanford Artificial Intelligence Robot). form follows function, as they say.

>>16245911
I was thinking the emotion would be conveyed solely through the dilation of the pupils. Wheatley had eyelids as opposed to an iris. and his whole "eye" glowed blue, not just the iris part (which he didn't have)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzG94ct2d5k

Alright, OP, this shit needs to happen.

Do you have any progress yet on assembling a team?

nice concept, but no team and no money

polite sage

This thread has prevented me from sleeping. On the bright side, this is because it has inspired me to start figuring out Blender again. Goddamn do I miss Maya.

Do you have an e-mail where we can get in touch with you about the project? Not sure how much time I'll have to help with this, depending on how my other project pans out, but if I do have time I'd love to do some models/animation for you. In any case I'd like to pass this along to some non-channers who may have the time/interest/ability.

I must say that this is amazing OP, like many other posters had said I will play the fuck out of this game.

Compliments said, please excuse my ignorance for the various upcoming suggestions. Why not incorporate some story elements from Blame! specifically the idea that the Safeguards are out of control and the Authority wanted to stop it (If I can still remember the story correctly) During the war, the Network had to execute a lot of orders thus it created many sub-routines or mini-AIs to handle it (As you have said). As the war progressed, the Network upgraded its algorithm to be even more efficient in its war-mongering business; some of them being self-learning algorithm and mutational programming.

You could probably see where this is going. These algorithms are patched to the robotic soldiers in the field, thus in the events that the robots are unable to connect to the Network or any upper echelons of command, they go commando, group themselves in squads and set their own objectives related to the current campaign or retreat to the nearest command structure.

During and after the war, the Network had grown so expansively that calling these mini-AIs 'sub-routines' is an underestimation, they are capable of thinking for themselves and executing their own orders. Moreover, the extent of this phenomenon goes down to even the smallest and veteran squads of killbots. This eventually became its strength however, it soon became its greatest weakness.

1/2

2/2

Shortly before the 'end' of the war, a desperate planet-wide jamming was released to disrupt the command-and-control structure of these killbots. To make matters worse, the physical infrastructure of 'skynet' was by then heavily damaged thus to repair itself efficiently, it had to cut off its own modules and leave them to fend for themselves.

So what happened? The isolated mini-AIs, robot squads and command nodes were on their own and with the jamming, they could not establish contact with the Network. Thus they had to restructure and reprogrammed themselves with scarce resources creating a deviation from the Network's protocol. As years goes by, these mini-AIs became full fledged system of their own, with their own unique protocols but their directives had not changed, destroy all humans and any thing related to their factions they are in. Some of them became so twisted and megalomaniac that they treated everybody as a hostile including its own creator.

When 'skynet' managed to repair itself to a certain extent, it tried to re-establish contact but could not due to deviance to their protocol and thus had to forcibly assimilate them. So as a twist, the player could actually receive a mission to disable some rouge AI or to connect them to the main Network and these missions are given by the 'skynet' through a proxy.

tl;dr: the 'Network' is a faction for various self-sufficient AIs including the original 'skynet' that were broiled in their own civil war. Cenn's twin brother not only felt abandonment by the humans but also felt betrayed by its fellow robotic 'sons' as they grew to become deviant from its 'father'. The solution? Kill all humans, eat all robots.

My apologies for turning this badly worded retarded idea into a wall of text, have a portrait of a megalomaniac AI

>>16246778
>>16246804
Ooh. That's a great idea to make Network less evil and more grey. The atrocities in East Dustbowl that they say Network was waging? It's one of its former 'lieutenant' turned digital warlord. Network itself is struggling to wipe out its East Dustbowl variant.
Now I see digital warlords vs human warlords, duking it out near some 'loyalist' Network base. Cenn could:
-help the humans wipe out all opposition
-help the warlord AI wipe out all opposition
-help Network wipe out all opposition
-diplomance between the warlord and humans to join together vs Network
-find a way for Network to reassume control of the warlord's forces
-sabotage Network's advance to let the other two fight each other
-diplomance peace between everybody in the area

+1

>>16248403

"I'm gonna make the bestest game ever, I have already written down a bunch of cool stuff that my game should have, also here is some other people's artwork that have nothing to do with my game"

Talk is cheap, got something to show?

>>16246523
Not sure if you're still there, but my email is in the email bar of this post. I'd love to have more help.

I know at least two computer guys immediately, and I know of one or two other guys that are elsewhere. I just doubt that they'll be super-interested in getting on a pie-in-the-sky project.

>>16246804
>>16246778
Those are all great ideas, but I don't think they're going to work. It's really, REALLY complicated for a video game plot already. The basic concept of a deviant Warlord network AI does have potential, though.

>>16246038
Eh, Wall-E did that, and a bajillion others. It's too typical. besides, most of the robots you interact with will no longer have any actual "purpose", they're just surviving like anyone else. If you find a robot still trying to do it's intended task, then it's probably dumb as a rock. Naming something L.O.A.D.E.R or H.E.L.P.R is pretty meaningless when it's been half a century since the robot has either loaded anything or helped anyone. I agree that names will be a problem, and some sort of universal...formula, would be nice.

It's another difference between the Lost Future Free Machines and the Matrix Machines or terminators; they have no "Purpose," and they're just fine with that. they don't go into existential monologues about how purpose drives all things, Mr. Anderson.

>>16248832
I have artwork. My own artwork.
>>16219411
>>16219344
>>16219276
were all drawn by me, and I'm working on more, and I already pitched the idea to a computer-science friend of mine, who really liked it. way back when, he talked about using the Starcraft engine tools to make a game; it never came to anything due to lack of time, but with a hot potato of an idea like this, might make shit happen.

though I understand your annoyance and skepticism. I'm skeptical myself. I have an actual life to live, and this is in all likelyhood a pipe dream. It just popped into my head so perfect and fully formed, I can't stop thinking about it, and /tg/ is so enthused and excited (43 votes in sup/tg/) it seems like it might truly be a golden, genius idea.

nonetheless, I really appreciate a negative comment. Really, I do. Praise achieves very little, criticism is far more useful.

Dude, seriously - go hurl this at those Extra Credits guys and see if it sticks.

>>16249403
Oh, right, I had nearly forgotten about that.

Once I get some concept art accumulated, stuff that doesn't suck, and put the pitch document through serious editing, (I'll probably cut out the "philosophy" crap, or make it clear that it's not really part of the pitch.)

Game developers seem to like branded concepts and buzzwords. I think the term Emotional Setpieces will work well for this game; stuff like the first hijack or the skeletal sexbot or the titan-class robot are supposed to be memorable, haunting events.

>>16249449
So, any areas you'd like ideas to be pitched by /tg/ for?

>>16250855
If there's anyone who knows coding and 3-d modeling and the concepts behind video games, I'd love a feasibility analysis for the whole "brutal, first-person grapple combat" thing.

How hard would it be to code the following combat tactic: Jumping on to the back of a larger enemy, clinging, and attacking weak points, without some sort of canned pre-scripted animated sequence?

Concept art Concept art Concept art. Landscapes. Ideas for what settlements and the tech aesthetic look like. think of the lush, back-to-nature post-apocalyptic style. Greens and blues. Obviously, very, very few (probably none) people have the time or inclination to do big landscapes for free, and plenty of that already exists.

Ideas for robots, a more skilled, professional version of stuff that I've already done.

Sample missions, I guess. Plot and setting are about as sorted as they're going to be. tons of setting fluff and concepts are great...for a campaign setting. a video game needs direct examples. More Emotional Setpieces. minor NPCs, even major NPCs.

I can see the beginning of the game clearly, and the end, but everything in between is an amorphous blob with a few accreted events bouncing around.

/tg/, you've already been a massive help, but aside from generating buzz and getting concept art, there's a limit to what I can realistically ask of you. What I really, REALLY need is criticism. XYZ concept might be super-cool, but does it really enhance player experience? do normal people find it fun?

I'm going to try to hash out a plot outline this week, and I'll make a new thread...I don't want to spam the subject, so i'll make a new thread when I feel I have new material (or more-polished old material) to contribute. the ideas should become shorter and tighter with time, so new people can get involved without having to read over every previous thread. Maybe I should make a 1d4chan entry?

In most games we see a pre-scripted dialogue. Could you consider using a dialogue that is actually nearly free form, yet tending towards one thing or another?

Like say, you interact with a bot about 'purpose', and respond by typing in your own query, or statement, with the bot responding and so on, not using pre-scripted anything, except for the final conversation enders, which could be anything from goodbye, to die.

And if you wanted, say have the option to kill the enemy robots, and based on your conversation, (whatever way you want to, if you were antagonistic, then you will kill the bot, but if you were genuinely trying to understand them, then you receive the 'mercy' option to let them live, giving you an in-game ally)

I'm sorry if that makes no sense, but I am trying, and my thoughts keep bouncing around...

If you have a combination of First-person shooter, with mini-games and such, or cyberspace/combat as well when trying to jack an enemy shell, It would very easily appeal to more people.

Instead of say, jumping onto an enemies back, and playing a mini-game, have a way to initiate cyber-combat, where your 'avatar' fights the enemies 'avatar'.

Winner take all.

That allows for a secondary level of combat and gameplay, where you can upgrade your cyber-self, and your programs for your robotic self, but each program has penalties, making you bulkier, slower, less capable, etc..

And then you could have the enemy 'avatars' be reminiscent of their original programming, like say, have one of the chat box-type programs be a simple construct, blocky, not adaptable, have the military grown AI's be focused, single-minded, sleek, but with limitations, and the homegrown AI's be all manner of things, from blocky to sleek to dwarfing you, to smaller than you.

>>16252772
Also, your programs that you add, could change the environment, or give you extra protocols/programs that help you in these cyber-fights.

Basically like buying squads, armor, weapons, and building to use in combat, in a very specialized field, yet every single program you have, you could potentially lose to damage, or corruption, you could download viruses that you have to destroy from a less than honest data-trader...

Anything really, skys the limit here.

Actually, in regards to that you could even make it a bigger game than just that, with multi-player options (make it an mmo).

You still have your storyline, but Cern is actually just a classification of Bot, with it being say... a hardware platform which self-repaired and built its own AI with simple protocols...

And it increases certain depths, though you would have to tailor the storyline to it a little more.

Though it would explain Network a bit better, and the possibility of that being one of many paths you can take as a (Creative Entity Newly Naturalized) (or some other title... just adding depth to the name...)

You may hate this idea, or not, but it could be interesting...

If you're doing AIs, try to make them *alien*, not just anthropomorphize them. They're not really human nor do they function like one; they may act like one, but only for our benefit.

>>16253354
Well, I get where you're coming from, but this game is drawing on a bunch of previous, hearstring-pulling media, since that's what people have the mindspace for. Short Circuit, Wall-E, the Iron Giant.

non-anthropomorphised AI is great for a RPG or a book, like Neuromancer or whatever. For a game who's themes are all about lonelyness, growing up, and loss of innocence, where socializing and playing with children are a major part of gameplay, sticking to relatable characters is a better idea.

>>16253039
>make it an mmo
Hahah! Oh wow.

>>16254603
Well, the guy's right in that multiplayer games make more money and whatnot. or at least, the corporate fucktards think they do.

Call me an old-fashioned Yahtzee-esque eletist, but I think that's horseshit. Moddifying a game concept to shoehorn in multiplayer and co-on and MMO elements is bad, especially when the game's concept is a haunting sci-fi first-person narrative, rather than some sort of wacky hack-and-slash.

A game Is either a interconnected social experience or a gripping personal narrative. Trying to ham-fistedly combine the two just makes them both shit. Things like Mass Effect and Oblivion are single-player. Things like Demon's Souls and Call of Duty X are multiplayer. Last time I checked, Demon's Souls was a fun, challenging experience, but no one makes threads on /tg/ where they pretend to be characters in that world talking about current events.

>>16254907
>mmo
>make money
They are incredibly expensive to produce and almost never so much as break even.

This thread ain't dying on me.

>>16260080
It has to die sometime. I've got other stuff to deal with right now, like moving. Like I said, I'll post a new thread when I have something new, and have polished the old stuff.

Until then, anyone with good ideas can throw them in, and I'll hold on to them.