That is a legitimately good twist. No assholery involved.

You mean plot?

That sounds awesome.
Depending on the game though, them minions probably could have had him resurrected.

That was just an example that I wrote just now. But I meant the kind of things that would make at some point the players call bullshit but in fact is a very good "just as planned" thing

>>16047950
That example is totally fine.

Fucking with the players keeps things interesting and it takes a real idiot to complain about things going wrong for the PCs. It's called strife and adversity. It keeps things interesting and gives the PCs something to overcome. If everything went well and nothing unexpected happened to them then it'd be dull.

Not that you should be unfair, of course. Destroying everything that they've worked for breeds apathy more than anything else. The key is to threaten what they hold dear and provoke a response. If they believe they can prevent or undo what's happened to them or their stuff/friends/etc they'll be highly motivated.

>>16047992
that was a horrible example of what you wanted to say, but an awesome example of something awesome.
Stop being accidentally awesome, it's not helping you.

>>16048005

bomp

>BBEG is slain
>"It's done."
>BBEG's best friend ressurects him using the same spells the players have been using to cheat death.

>>16047950

This is actually pretty good. And it's not a plot-twist to dick over the players, but actually reinforces how awesome they are. The bad guy was so awesome that his minions tried to imitate his glory. That means, by default, the PCs are EVEN MORE SO.

>>16048939

>implying the system has a resurrection spell
>implying if there is such a spell you don't need the body

I'd like to stick with your intended topic, OP, but I don't want to in the face of your unintentionally great example of good plot happenings.

Thread hijack might be called for.

>>16048958
agreed battle brother, better things may come of this thread now.

>>16048940
I think the dickery side of this is to make the players believe that in fact the BBEG is alive until the very last moment. Or even after that last moment implying that maybe the BBEG is still alive and the minions are just some kind of diversion

Agreed. This is now a thread for excellent plot twist discussions.

Reminds me of Kane from C&C, except for the part where the BBEG really is dead.

>>16047950
Reminds me of the hand of thrawn trilogy in a way

but yeah, this is a nice topic OP, mind gifting it to us?

>>16048972
I think we have different definitions of dickery.

>>16049001
>>16048964
>>16048982
this is the politest hijack I've ever witnessed.

>>16049001
A-M, in the coffee.
What could that mean Zach?

OP has just described the probable plot of The Dark Knight Rises. Except the sexy bits.

>>16049007
Let us hope that the thread continues in this vein.
So, continuing on from OP's twist; what's the aim then, if the BBEG is dead? Slay all his minions?
Is an entire army the BBEG?

Actually, that'd be pretty cool. Think about it; to take on an entire army, the PCs would have to be pretty damn powerful (power includes allys). So it'd be something to work towards and it would provide an excellent (second?) climax to the campaign.

>>16049045
Since an army recruits, the PCs could go on quests to take out the recruiting parties.
If they fail some, then the final confrontation with the army will be harder, since the army will be bigger.

Armies also need logistics. If the PCs can disrupt the supply caravans or whatever, then they can weaken the army.

(I'm not OP by the way)

>>16049045
Maybe not even that, just take down those are carrying on the illusion.
Shut down the armies entire propaganda chain, and thus their motivation.l

>>16049045

maybe they can damage the army a little but if they completly destroy it no reason for the minions to fake the BBEG, they could just start over from something else.

Also the BBEG must be some kind of charismatic leader who is not plain evil, maybe just questionably.

>>16049025
I do believe it means we have received a new thread during an exchange of arms

Anyhow, favorite piece of GM awesome is during Deathwatch. At ne point, after we somehow managed to halt a planet-wide civil war to get both sides to talk to each other and work out their differences by discussion, a group of noise marines landed on the planet.

The war was eventually decided by a slightly more literal version of Battle of the Bands

Okay first of all we need do decide what kind of system will we use, everything depends on that.
I can see this work in either setting, be it DnD, DH or even Delta Green

>>16049077
>>16049071
That depends at what level the illusion is known at.
Are the majors carrying it on? What about the platoon leaders?
If it's down at that level, so it's only the grunts that don't know; then it really is like the army is the BBEG


And yeah, the leader would have to be charismatic.

(pic related as a possibility for what the BBEG could be, see 4th post from the bottom).

>>16049099
Better keep it as generic as possible, so it can be adapted easely.

I'd say the only assumption we make is that we're working in a setting that has illusion magic.

My DM was quite the opposite unfortunately.
The over arching plot was: "Evil army is attacking strong hold, you've got to rally some troops and go defend it."
So, we walked stuff; stopped by a town where there was some contest that he distracted us from plot for two sessions with no point or reward, kept on going. Diplomanced this king into giving us some guys in one try, and then walked back to the place and fought the army.

On top of all that, we where constantly stopped by pointless dungeons with no theme and little reward.

I actually said to him once (after fighting a myriad of enemies and finding a magic sword FOR HIS DMPC and a book with some spells in it for the wiz),
"What's the theme of this dungeon again?

To which he replied, "It's a dungeon. The theme is 'things the party is supposed to kill."
I left the group shortly there after, for compound reasons.

>>16049118
>Better keep it as generic as possible, so it can be adapted easely
I say GURPS.

>>16049123
That is no longer the topic of the thread.

>>16049118

illusion is not a must, there are other tricks, someone can easily disguise himself as the BBEG, works well even in an anti magic field

I think i have some mind-fuckery saved, let me see...

How does /tg/ even spoilers!?

(ok, not teegee related but still. 10/10 for the effort.)

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16047950/
This thread deserves archiving.

>>16049186
I think we may be premature there, but let's at least try to live up to that goal.

>>16049197
Possibly. So then let's continue the discussion

okay, so fantasy or scifi setting? because a lot depend on this

>>16049256
It can work either way really.
Sci fi you have digital "magic" to keep the illusion.
Fantasy you have magic magic to keep the illusion.

I had fantasy in mind... But I'm not sure.

>>16049287

okay so let's say this is a fantasy setting
We have a BBEG who is a charismatic leader and have a very solid goal. Because he has an army it must be a goal that needs an army.
Maybe exterminate a race or destroy a country or general genocide of some kind.
The trick is it must be some goal that the players could somehow agree with for a certain part.
Maybe the BBEG wants to destroy another evil country and completly exterminate everyone there while obviously not everyone is evil there.
Maybe the BBEG is a general of a more or less neutral country and starts building up his army, hire mercenaries and such

I have commited a slight act of DM-Dickery in the past, specifically the last session my group played.
I opened with the setup of some dozen or children going missing, all from towns near a castle where a vampire was supposed to live. Now I mentioned in the back-story for the vampire that he threw his lot in with a demon, becoming said creature of the night, after his children died of a rare disease, and in a fit of grief, his wife killed herself. This promptly drove him quite mad. Now throughout the castle I left plenty of hints about the nature of this disease. It doesn't affect adults. Comes around once every few generations etc. Now you can probably see where this was going.
Now that party had obviously been employed to rescue the children as in my setting, you can 'cure' someone of vampirism by killing their sire before the first full moon, which the party did obligingly. It was only then that they found the children, all dead from said disease. It turned out they had all contracted the same disease as the vampires children all those years ago and the vampirism was holding it at bay. The party had been pretty much screwed from the start.
But they rallied magnificently, and in a pure 'Single Manly Tear Was Shed' moment, appologised to the town with a single, heart felt (diplomacy natural 20) "Sorry", giving up all their gold and even planting a rather powerful banner in the ground as a memorial to the children and the vampire who had only been doing what he throught was the right thing to do.

In the same session I also managed to fuck with them after they entered what seemed to be a childs bedroom and listed the contents; "A bed, a dresser, wardrobe, a little girl, a bookshelf and a chair". When they asked about the 'little girl', I vehemently denied ever mentioning such a thing. Drove the party mad and they didn't spend too long in that part of the castle.

If a player retires a character, so that they can play some new class they wanted to try, and that original character is still in the setting, and there's no real signs of them going back to the original character, is it dickish to hijack her old character for my own uses?

>>16049525
a quick heads up of 'oh hey, mind if i borrow your old character since youre not using it anymore?' would be polite.

>>16049179

>>16049544
hmm, fair enough. I'm sure she'll be fine with it.

Now I just need to figure out what I'm going to do with a paladin being fueled by the BBEG.

>>16049460
>Maybe the BBEG wants to destroy another evil country and completly exterminate everyone there while obviously not everyone is evil there.
This is a good possibility.
>Maybe the BBEG is a general of a more or less neutral country and starts building up his army, hire mercenaries and such
That's kinda the same as the first...

>>16049597
will this paladin be good or evil after being powered by BBEG?

yeah because I meant those to to be in the same scenario but I derped a little

>>16049718
Ah well, understandable.
I suppose the large amount of combat ready men marching in the same direction could alert the PCs.
Maybe a recruiter could try to recruit them.

Both are possible.

Also; https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-WN1vEAehcHSNYoWNuj_cuqLmrKd28ClGd8i20K9ynY/edit?hl=en_US

>Charismatic BBEG gets killed by the PCs in an epic battle
>Minions attempt to resurrect him
>BBEG refuses to accept the spell, says he won't come back to a world where his vision can be destroyed by a handful of brutal, low-class warriors
>Conspiracy forms to keep the dream alive
>ILLUSION
>PCs wonder what the fuck
>PCs eventually discover the truth
>PCs track down the people casting the illusions
>Illusionist, terrified, says he's lost control of the spell and that it's acting on its own, past the duration of the original
>Candles flicker
>Illusionist is then torn to shreds by a Phantasmal Killer
>Lights go out
>Chilly laughter echoes in the dark

>>16049689
About the same really. It's been going since day one. Overarching plot through the whole campaign. It's why I was bummed out that she ditched the character.

First session she brings in this battle old lady who decided to be a paladin and go off on this mission because god spoke to her in a dream.

I'm playing The shackled city campaign, with story modification of course, and running pathfinder rules mostly, and am REALLY relaxed about alignment.

Still though, she was acting quite chaotic during that first day. Enough that eyebrows were even raised by others at the table. It was then that I started to form a plan. I asked her what her God was, and she said she hadn't really thought about it yet, and that she might just go godless.
I told her I had an idea that'd fit with the setting, and asked if it was okay if I chose where that power was coming from. She was all for it.

The character eventually became loved by the party to the point where after the first batch of character deaths, people started making characters related to her.

The BBEG is a rather insane Angel that became a demon lord. He even has two forms he switches between, so I'm playing up the split personality angle, and his angel side has been fueling her all this time, and slightly tainting her with madness.

>>16049804
>battle

that was to be batty.

>>16049800

>>16049491
>Now throughout the castle I left plenty of hints about the nature of this disease. It doesn't affect adults. Comes around once every few generations etc. Now you can probably see where this was going.
I'm pretty stupid, Anon. I don't get it.

Oh, you just mean, we can see at that point that the children were getting the same disease as the vampire's kids. Okay. I thought you meant there was a specific disease we were supposed to recognize.

>>16049764

Before or after death?

I wrote a few things into that document, also bump

okay so let1s start this shit rolling /tg/

>BBEG is a charismatic general in a more or less neutral country. He is a little extremist but caring about his soldiers.

>Want to destroy neighboring country with evil leader, and completely exterminate everyone there (maybe the country is an elf/orc/whatever country)

So let's figure out some specifics about the home country and the enemy country.

For start how about that the home country is a neutral one mostly because they have a good defensive position, mountains at the border and shit. Maybe a little infight among the nobles, the main thing is that the country has other problems than to care about anything over their borders.

Let's say that the enemy country is overall weaker than the home country and don't want to attack the home country. However they do <insert evil thing here> with other countries or something.
The BBEG who is a general want to attack the enemy country because he thinks that this evil must be purged at all cost. He doesn't command the whole army in home country just a part of it thats why at first he will build up his army, hire the mercenaries and whatnot, of course he will try to make this as silent as possible because he know that not everyone share his view.

any addition?

>>16050215
>>16050230
I forgot to mention that durring their battle verses the evasive vampire, he kept muttering things such as "No, not again" and "I'm saving them" and "Not the blight! Not the blight!"

It did generally work, as my players though that was what was going on, but their characters technically didn't so they were roleplaying it straight.

>>16051312

Okay let's say no addition.
But we need to figure out what kind of evil things they do at the other country. It must be something marginally evil so the BBEG has a good enough reason for himself at least but not evil enough that the players will be sympathetic to the BBEG's cause.

Any ideas?

bomping with pic

So, in line with this thread ...
My game has had the somewhat recent development of the players all playing clones of their original characters while their original PCs are stuck in a time-dilated loop dying in a starship reactor explosion / daemonic birth over and over again. GET OUT OF THIS THREAD PLAYERS. I have several ideas about what to do with the original characters, but is there any input from /teegee/?

tl;dr I got the players to play duplicates of their PCs and now control the originals. What should I do with them? Game is dark/conspiracy based, so horrawfulbad isn't out of the question.

Mercs don't really fit, they don't have the zealous devotion the reveal requires. BBEG's country could have been recently racked by calamity, famine disease or better yet a costly war with the other country. He is recruiting not necessarily the best and brightest, (The legitimate government already sequestered them for war) but the sons and little brothers left alone in the war. Filled with rage and desperate for vengeance he forms a youth core as his base

STOP THE PRESSES

this thread has reminded me of an epic thread (archived) that I read from /tg/

it was some weird paranoia thing in space
the players were astronauts investigating a mine on mars
the DM made them wear gas masks and played mood music and kept the lighting low
the players dissapeared and were confronted with all sorts of mind fuckery

>>16052143

bigger your army, more mercenaries you have. Especially if your government not entirely support your military campaign.

>>16052234

Not discounting them but the mercs won't be the ones 'keeping the faith' after he croaks. That's more like a cult of personality to maintain that much loyalty postmortem.

>>16052267

I'm talking about the before death situation. not the after death situation

>>16052218
Never say I never did anything for you.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12130366/

>>16052218

>the players dissapeared and were confronted with all sorts of mind fuckery
>the players dissapeared
>the players

>>16052287
>>16052287
>>16052287

YES YES YES YES YES

bumping