Character advancement is free-form, with XP investment improving skills and attributes. Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game. Techniques range from new combat moves (such as the jump attack and sword beam) to unique racial talents (zora creating an electrical field) and passive abilities (being able to walk across shifting sand unhindered). Most techniques have a skill or virtue prerequisite before they can be purchased. Certain races may recieve XP discounts or lower prerequisites for certain techniques.

Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Goron, Kokiri, Rito, Zora, Hylian, Gerudo and Sheikah, with more under discussion. Each race gets a couple nifty abilities (eg, Gorons can curl into a ball and roll around, Zora can breathe underwater, and so forth). Humans (which include Hylians, Gerudo and Sheikah) instead get a +1 to the Virtue of their choice (though this can't be applied to put any Virtue over the usual starting limit of 4), and get discounts on certain techniques associated with their race. No other races get any bonuses to Virtues. Each race also has a Mass score, which affects movement speed, getting knocked/pushed around, use of the hookshot/clawshot, and so forth.

Damage is measured in hearts, and can be dealt in fractions of up to 1/4 heart. Your character has hearts equal to 2 + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical value, and by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.

Magic spells and items use Magic Power (with a basic attack spell using 2MP.) The Magic Meter is divided into blocks, each with 6MP. Starting MP is equal to 6 x your Mental value, or one block per Mental. Additional blocks can be aquired by improving your mental score and as rewards (like Heart Containers)

Lets get to work guys

Stop posting.

>>15433161
Whoops, forgot mah sage.

>>15433185

Excuse me, but why is that?

Bamp¡

Well, what needs working on in this thread?
What part are we on now?

what needs work at the moment?

checking the wiki it looks like we only have a handful of spells up, but i remember dozens of them being proposed in previous threads. Perhaps we should make semi-final decisions on which ones we like and which ones we dont?

Also, i dont ever remember extensive monster-statting being done, so we should probably work on that. But we should also check back through the archive to make sure we're not reinventing the wheel.

>>15433443
derp, just checked and thread 10 and theres some good monster stats in there

Yeah, techs and spells need further work and i suggest that maybe we could focus on what made his way into the wiki, that way we can make sure that what is already in the wiki is even more consistent. And yeah we should have in mind what was already propposed.

>What needs to be done
Add techs from the last thread to the wiki, edit some, add XP costs and prereqs to those that don't have them.

Thanks for posting a new thread by the way.

There was also the issue of whether to put a restriction on active techniques in combat to avoid spamming.

>>15433841
My opinion is that they're not necessary, since you can already double-attack with your regular attacks, and most techniques make it so you can't defend in the same round.

New monster statblock

Monster (type)
Life: _, Mass: _, Speed: _
Attack: Name (Range x, attack roll, damage)
Defense: Passive roll, Active roll (Guard or Dodge), Armor
Special Attacks/Moves/Properties:
P_/M_/S_
P_/W_/C_
(Skill rolls)

>Example
Octorok (aquatic)
Life: 2, Mass: 3, Speed: 5 (Swim 5)
Attack: Rock Spit (Range 10, 3k3, 1/2H)
Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3
P2/M1/S1
P1/W2/C1

>Tactics: Octoroks tend to crawl aimlessly until they see an enemy, spitting rocks and then fleeing when they get close. In water, Octoroks spit at enemies from the shore and duck down underwater on the same turn.

>>15434237
Forgot the type of active defense.

>Defense: Passive 2k2, Active 3k3 (dodge)

WHEN DOES IT ENTER BETA MOTHERFUCKERS!?

Is it just me or the Deku race need huge, huge buffs?

>>15434267
When it's ready. You don't want trainwrecks hitting beta and then devs afraid to change ideas as they've been tested.

>>15434303
High speed, a free ranged attack and the ability to walk on water seems ok to me.

>>15434303
Dekus are always weaklings with special tactics and special movement. They can fucking learn to fly around and walk on water. With their natural ranged attack this should frighten you.

>>15434438
On the other hand, fire.

>>15434438

They can't fly. That's Korok's, regardless of Deku being shown the ability to fly in Majora's Mask.

Why are there even the distinction between Korok and Deku? Are two tiny sentient plant races necessary?

IMO, give Deku the flying ability, scrap Korok.

Quick question.

Do Gorons need to make a will upon hearing upbeat, 'foresty' music or else burst into dance?

>>15434673
Deku can learn to fly with techniques.

The distinction is for people who might want Koroks in their games but not Dekus, vise versa, or both in the same setting. Plus Koroks are cool.

On a side note, I can see a Fey Stealth sort of technique being useable by Koroks and Kokiri.

>you'll sseditin

>>15434695
No, but ut works fine your character has that particular quirk.

>>15434722

Didn't see it on the Wiki.

>>15434792
If it's not on there, it needs to be added. Should it be limited so that they can only fly out of flowers, maybe allowing them to fly freely as an extra tech?

So...we need magic, do we?
Allow me to repost the spells proposed in previous threads...

Shield (Wisdom)
Cost: 2 MP per round
Range: 0 or 5
Effect: The target recieves damage reduction of 1/2 heart until caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power. The damage reduction does not stack with armor.

Reflect (Wisdom)
Cost: 2 MP per round
Range: 0 or 5
Requirement: The target must be holding a shield.
Effect: The target's shield gains the Reflective property until the caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power.

Armor (Wisdom)
Enchantment
Your clothes shimmer with protective energy as your enemy's blows are magically absorbed.
Cost: 2 MP per round
Range: 0 or 5
Effect: The target recieves damage reduction of 1/2 heart until caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power. The damage reduction does not stack with armor.
>This is redundant with Shield -- not sure if that's intentional or merely an oversight.

>>15436078
Reflect (Wisdom)
Enchantment.
A wave passes through the air and surrounds the sheild, which now glistens and shines like polished silver.
-Cost: 2 MP per round
-Range: 0 or 5
-Requirement: The target must be holding a shield.
-Effect: The target's shield gains the Reflective property until the caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power.

Fire (Power)
Attack
A bolt of fire roars as it soars past.
-Cost 2MP
-Range: 10
-Success: 1/2H fire damage.

Ice (Wisdom)
Attack
A beam of ice sails through the air.
-Cost: 2MP
-Range 10
-Success: 1/4H Ice damage, and the target's movement is reduced by 1 until the beginning of the caster's turn.

>>15436089
Fairy Form (Courage)
Enchantment
With a word, your body explodes into a cloud of glittering dust, revealing a tiny, flying figure when it clears.
-Cost: 2MP per round
-Range: 0 or 1
-Effect: You or the target Shrinks and gains a fly speed of 6, until the caster ends the effect or runs out of Magic Power.

When shrunk,
-Your mass is 0
-Your Movement is half it's normal value.
-You cannot deal damage to normal-sized creatures.
-You recieve double damage from normal-sized creatures.
-You can fit through grates, holes, and other small openings.
-You get a (+2?) bonus to Stealth towards normal-sized creatures.

Elemental Arrow (Power)
Attack
An arrow is charged with elemental energy before it is fired.
Cost: 2MP (tentative)
Range: Same as arrow
Requirements: Target must be firing an arrow
Success: The effect of a standard Fire or Ice spell (caster's choice) is stacked onto the arrow's damage.
>I would propose that we change this to a flat amount of bonus elemental damage if the attack deals damage, rather than adding damage per success as this version would imply. Also, fire and ice versions should probably be separate spells.

Light Arrow (Power)
Attack
An arrow is imbued with holy power before being fired.
Cost: 4MP (tentative, but remains proportionate to the Elemental Arrow, above)
Range: Same as arrow
Requirements: Target must be firing an arrow
Success: An additional 1/2H of Light damage is stacked onto the arrow.

Din's Fire - Power
An burst of flame expands out from your square, consuming all in its path.
Attack
Cost: 6
Range: 5 meters
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. For each success, deal 1.5 hearts of [Fire] damage to all creatures and objects within 5 meters of you.

Nayru's Love - Wisdom
A shimmering blue diamond encases the target, protecting it from harm
Enchantment
Cost: 12
Duration: 3 rounds (?)
Range: Personal or 1 meter
The subject is immune to all damaging effects for the duration of the spell, but the caster cannot use any magic power until the spell ends.

Farore's Wind - Courage
You instantly warp to a previously designated point.
Travel
Cost: 6
Range: Unlimited
This spell is used in two phases.
The first time you cast it, it sets a magical marker at your current location, which is visible to you as a floating green orb but undetectable to all others.
Subsequently, you can cast it again to instantaneously warp back to the marker you set previously. This erases the marker; you must set another marker before you can warp again.
You may transport yourself and up to one additional creature for each rank you have in |magic|.

Magic Cape - Wisdom
You become undetectable and untouchable, moving like a ghost.
Enchantment
Cost: 20 (sustained)
When activated, you become invisible and incorporeal. You are immune to all attacks and can pass through solid objects unimpeded. You must pay the magic cost every round at the beginning of your turn in order to maintain the effect, though you may choose not to pay the cost (in which case the effect ends immediately). If you don't have enough magic power to pay the cost, the effect ends.

Cane of Byrna - Wisdom
You are surrounded by a protective field that protects you and adjacent allies from harm, and damages enemies who get too close.
Enchantment
Cost: 15 (sustained)
When activated, this item produces a force field around you in a 1 meter radius. You and any allies within the field are immune to all harm, and any enemy that comes in contact with it takes 1 heart of damage for each round it touches the field. You must pay the magic cost every round at the beginning of your turn in order to maintain the effect, though you may choose not to pay the cost (in which case the effect ends immediately). If you don't have enough magic power to pay the cost, the effect ends.
>Both the CoB and the Magic Cape seems a bit too expensive for the effect. Should we beef them up to justify the costs (since the costs were taken directly from how they work in LttP), or just trim down the costs?

Cane of Somaria - Power
A cube of solid matter appears out of thin air, then explodes in a burst of flame.
Creation
Cost: 2
Creates a 1m cube of solid matter with mass 6 occupying the space directly in front of you. If that space is occupied by a creature, the creature is displaced to the square opposite you from the block, and takes 1/4 heart of damage. The cane can be activated a second time without paying any magic power to detonate the block, dealing 3/4 heart of [Fire] damage to all creatures within 2 meters, though you are immune to this damage. Blocks created by the Cane of Somaria also detonate in this way if attacked. You may only create one block at a time.
>I'm thinking the detonation damage should probably be dropped to 1/2 or 1/4 heart.

Fire Rod - Power
The air shimmers as a searing bolt of flame streaks toward the target.
Attack
Cost: 4
Treat as an attack with range 10. Damage increment: 1.5 [Fire]
Enemies damaged by this attack catch fire for 2 rounds, taking 1/4 heart of damage each round.
>I believe this one was agreed in an earlier thread that a 1h increment would be much more appropriate.

Ice Rod - Power
A frigid blast of magic encases the target in solid ice.
Attack
Cost: 4
Treat as an attack with range 10. Damage increment: 0.5 [Ice]
Enemies damaged by this attack are frozen for 2 rounds. A frozen enemy can take only 1 action per round, moves at 1/2 its normal speed, and takes an additional heart of damage from physical and/or fire-based sources.

Ether Medallion - Power
The air crackles with electricity as bolts of lightning strike your foes.
Attack
Cost: 8
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. For each success, deal 3/4 heart of [Lightning] damage to all targets within 15 meters, or 1 heart per success if the target is airborne. Creatures damaged in this way are stunned (lose one action on their next turn).

Quake Medallion - Power
Striking the ground beneath your feet, you cause a violent tremor that damages groundborne foes and knocks them off their feet.
Attack
Cost: 8
Requirements: Must be standing on a solid surface
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. All groundborne creatures within 15 meters take 3/4 heart of damage per success and are knocked prone. This spell also destroys breakable objects in its area of effect.

Bombos Medallion - Power
Fiery explosions rip the air asunder, devastating your foes.
Attack
Cost: 8
Roll an unopposed |magic| skill check. For each success, deal 1.5 hearts of [Fire] damage to all creatures and objects within 15 meters. This spell also destroys breakable objects in its area of effect.

So, as you can see, we probably need a standardized template for spell descriptions. We also need to update these spells to reflect recent decisions regarding magic -- namely, the need for skill rank prerequisites, and unopposed checks for success/failure for non-scaling effects.

We also have a discrepancy between the Ice spell and the Ice Rod -- the former was originally statted as Wisdom, while the latter is listed as Power. The two were made by different posters; I presume one was going by elemental associations for Virtues (water/ice are associated with Wisdom), while the other was going by effect associations (attack magic typically goes under Power).
Personally...well, I won't say which one I prefer, since one of them is my work, so that would kind of be double-voting.

Also, some magic items from the video games that aren't covered here are the Cane of Pacci, the Sand Wand, and the Dominion Rod.

Aaand we should probably 'brew up some brand new spells, particularly buffs/debuffs. So, plenty to do! Let's get cracking!

There should definitely be a spell that saps the strength of the target. Maybe like this:

Sap - (Courage?)
Debuff
A shadowy ray is shot from the hands of the caster.
Cost: 4MP
Range: 5
Success: The damage increment of the targets |Melee| or |Heavy| attacks is reduced by 1/4H per success for 5 rounds.

Maybe we should say that spells whose only effect is to deal damage are power based, spells that deal a little bit of dmg and add some kind of effect or healing would be courage, and spells that only have any kind of effect, buff or healing would be wisdom based. Thoughts?

>>15436414
We already have distinctions laid out for spells from way back, it's just a matter of whether mechanics or elements (fluff) take precedence in certain instances (like the Ice/Ice Rod issue).

>Power
Offensive magic (both damaging and debilitating)
Terrain-altering magic
Associated elements: Fire, Earth

>Wisdom
Healing and defensive magic
Some debuff-type effects could go here too (illusions and such)
Associated elements: Water/Ice

>Courage
Travel/exploration magic (think Farore's Wind)
Offensive buffs
Associated elements: Wind, Plants

Gotta think about all the connotations and nuances of the Virtues -- they're a major part of the flavor, after all.
Personally, I favor going by the mechanics over elements, since the elements are more just thematic associations with the relevant goddess rather than particularly tied to the ethos of the Virtue per se, particularly given the way we're handling Virtues in this system.

>>15436370
Something to this effect would be a good idea, though that version seems quite overpowered. Most buffs and debuffs will need to be non-scaling, otherwise it'd get way out of hand. Also, that would definitely be Power.

>>15435771

Yeah, flowers to start. Maybe later on they can fly free

>>15436807
Ah, I see. Alright here's a revised version:

Sap - (Power)
Debuff
A shadowy ray is shot from the hands of the caster and penetrates the target's body.
Cost: 4MP
Range: 5
Success: The damage increment of the target's |Melee| or |Heavy| attacks is reduced by 1/2H for 5 rounds.

Should it effect only close range attacks, or should it effect power based ranged attacks too?

>>15436807
Correction: I suppose I shouldn't have marked elements as "fluff", since there is a mechanical relevance to them, but it's closer to fluff than the core mechanics of what the spell does, anyway.

Also, my thoughts on spell templating:

Name (Virtue)
Type
Rank prerequisite
MP cost
Duration
Range
Area (if applicable)

Brief flavor blurb
Mechanics

Spell types would be mostly just as a quick reference of broadly what sort of effect it has, but could occasionally have mechanical significance (eg, the Lens of Truth makes you immune to Illusion spells when active). Elemental spells would also have the relevant element listed in parentheses after the type. Possible types I can think of now: Attack, Creation, Defense, Enhancement, Healing, Illusion, Summoning, Transformation, Travel, Weakening

MP cost would have the tag (Sustained) after it for effects like the Lens of Truth and the Cane of Byrna that require a constant cost-per-round to maintain, and the duration for such effects would simply be "Sustain".

>>15436890
Or perhaps, 1 round of sapping per success?

>>15436938
Scaling duration to success could work pretty nicely. I think we should probably make it an opposed check, possibly against Mental Courage? Mental being the stat for magic, and Courage being all about tenacity and such, that seems like the appropriate roll to resist most debuffs. And since we're giving monsters full stats now, we can do that sort of thing!

Also, might I propose the name "Sap Strength"?

>>15436938
>>15436975

I agree, that should work pretty nicely

>>15436975
I agree with everything here.

Here's the spell updated and using the proposed spell format:

Sap Strength (Power)
Weakening
(Rank prerequisite)
Cost: 4MP
Duration: 1 round per success
Range: 5
Area: 1 creature

-A shadowy ray is shot from the hands of the caster and penetrates the target's body.

-The damage increment of the target's |Melee| and |Heavy| attacks are reduced by a static 1/2H. To determine duration, the caster rolls Mental|Power / |Magic| (or however magic works) against the target's Mental|Courage. The effect lasts 1 round per success of the caster. If the target's successes match or outnumber the caster's, the effect is negated.

>>15437575
I feel like this could probably be priced at 2 MP rather than 4.
And I'm pretty good with rulespeak, so let me have a crack at that rules text...maybe something like:

>Roll a Power-based |Magic| check against the target's Mental Courage. The damage increment of the target's |Melee| and |Heavy| attacks is reduced by 1/2 heart for one round per success you score. If you do not score more successes than the target, this spell is negated.

And we should probably add:

>This effect cannot reduce an attack's damage increment to less than 1/4 heart.

Also, it just struck me that opposing spells with skill-less rolls would mean you're not very likely to actually negate a spell (since the caster is adding skill bonuses). This could be fine, assuming we design effects with this in mind, but we might want to implement some sort of mechanic analogous to D&D's saving throw bonuses or something.
Personally, I'm fine with either way -- the latter takes more work for us, but would allow for more interesting spell possibilities.

Alternatively, we could just do debuffs like this as attacks just the same as proper attack spells, opposed by the standard defense for magic. A bit less flavorful, but might be easier to work with mechanically.

And speaking of which, we should make sure to spell out that magic attacks (like the Fire and Ice Rods) are opposed by defense as usual, with the caveat that shields (and parrying, if you have that technique) don't work except with certain special items (such as the Mirror Shield). So basically, unless you have said special item, the magic attack still targets your passive defense, even if you readied a shield or parry defense. Acrobatic defense still works as normal.

>>15437956
Actually, come to think of it, since the Virtue is specified earlier in the description, you wouldn't even need to say:
>Roll a Power-based |Magic| check
But rather just:
>Roll a |Magic| check

>>15437956
I felt that 4 MP was appropriate /because/ there's not any skill defense against it.
Also, what is the standard magic defense?

>>15438209

Mental courage?

Maybe the spells should specify which defense they target

>>15438209
By "standard magic defense" meant what I explained after "speaking of which..."

To put it in D&D terms (since that's something I'm sure everyone's probably familiar with), instead of working with a "saving throw" type of system (which would be opposing with stuff like Mental Courage), treat spells more like a "touch attack" (opposed by either passive or acrobatic defense).

>>15438587
Ok, I see what you mean. The "touch attack" system works well for spells like fire and ice. One could dodge out of the way to avoid the spell.
What about area of effect spells like Din's Fire then? It doesn't really make sense that one would be able to dodge an area without moving out of the area. I'm not sure how to solve this problem.

On another note, If sap strength is opposed by acrobatics or physical courage, then that would mean that the spell is hit or miss. In that case, the spell wouldn't be able to scale the duration based on successes. For this reason I like the mental courage opposed check here instead of the acrobatics/passive dodging.

I like Gurtyel's suggestion here >>15438325.
I think it would probably be best to have each spell determine what opposes it rather than a cover-all magic defense simply because not all spells work in the same way.

>>15434237
Looks good to me. Well done, sir.

thoughts?

Are masks an important item?

Should Poe be a playable race?

Thinking about someone's "'Red Switch' affects 'Red Object'" idea and how to track when certain puzzle elements deactivate/whatever, moving different coloured counters down a track (possibly putting them in a "permanent change" box if appropriate) seems like a neat idea.

So a 'Blue Gate' opening for 2 rounds would be represented by a blue counter being placed on the track at 2 when the gate opener's turn ends, then moving down to 1 when their next turn ends, then moving down to 0 (closing again) at the end of the turn after that.

P.S.: I suck at explaining things...
___

Having a standard system for writing out dungeons/puzzles would make sharing them possible, which will be a big help if designing them takes as long as I think it will.
Maybe not a programming sort of system, though.
___

Since this project has a crazy number of active drawfags (more than 1), maybe they should focus on different areas?
For example, Cz does PC stuff, Temporary Combat Namefag works on monsters, etc.
That way, there'd be a consistency of style within each chapter, right?

Not that people shouldn't draw whatever strikes their fancy or anything.

>>15440693
I like your suggestion about the drawfags

>>15440499
looks perfect, can't find a single flaw. your's is my current favorite.

>>15440523
masks are important in Termina based campaigns, but since thats such a specific thing, we'll have to save the rules about masks for later.

I don't see why poes would be allied with the other races that are currently playable.

>>15440499
It looks really good. The only thing we need to work out as far as character sheets goes is how to track Life and the Magic Meter as they change over the course of a session. Right now they do maximums just fine, but not so much when you spend magic or lose health.

TECHNIQUES: I wanted to bring up the idea from last thread about how to limit use of active techniques, so that players have to balance using them versus using normal attacks.

Option 1: All active techniques are made sure to have a downside, so while useful they have some drawback and might not be used all the time.

Option 2: Put some kind of "cooldown" mechanic on techniques, a number of rounds before they can be used again.

Option 3: Characters can use a number of techniques per combat, but what techniques they use is up to them entirely. Number of techniques per combat will be derived from stats somehow, or based on a new skill perhaps.

Option 4: Using techniques has a cost in "tech points" equal to their XP cost to learn. A character gains 1 tech point at the end of each of their turns and an additional tech point for each successfully completed action that required a roll of some kind. This could be limited to:
1) Dealing damage with an attack on your turn.
2) Successfully using a technique that required winning an opposed roll against your target.
3) Successfully defending against an attack with active defense (limit once per round).
4) Completing a significant action that required a roll. Up to GM discretion, examples include swinging from a rope to kick an enemy over a cliff, leaping a small chasm to gain position on an enemy, pushing over a pillar to create cover or damage a foe, etc.

>>15441821
I personally prefer Option 4 and the tech-points system. I think it would make combat very interesting, and encourage creative combat by rewarding a player for more than just attacking. It also limits active technique use in a way that is reasonable but maintains the fun of it.

Again, these are for ACTIVE techniques only. Passive techniques are always in effect.

>>15441821
>The only thing we need to work out as far as character sheets goes is how to track Life and the Magic Meter as they change over the course of a session. Right now they do maximums just fine, but not so much when you spend magic or lose health.
I can move the hearts and magic meter down a little and make room next to "Life" and "Magic" for boxes to keep track of them each numerically....

As for Techniques, how about a combination of 1, 2, and 4: I would suggest a maximum of 8 tech points (the maximum XP cost for Techniques) which would be just enough to use one top tier Technique and then have to recharge for at least 4 rounds before using another Technique of that magnitude. Techniques that have drawbacks or already use other resources like MP or extra Actions could use only half their XP cost in Tech Points.

captcha: Mechanics. litaki

>>15439040
Those were my thoughts as well, I just figured I'd throw the "touch attack" out there as a potential shortcut. But yeah, it's a pretty lame shortcut.

>>15440499
This is fantastic!

>>15441821
>The only thing we need to work out as far as character sheets goes is how to track Life and the Magic Meter as they change over the course of a session. Right now they do maximums just fine, but not so much when you spend magic or lose health.

You keep track of that on the character sheet by checking off boxes on the magic meter/parts of your hearts as you lose them, starting from the right.
I'd post a pic demonstrating what I mean, but for some reason the computer I'm on doesn't want to upload, but I think you get the idea.

Masks are awesome, and Poes are really mostly too mindless to be PCs. They're the hatred, despair, and bitterness of the uneasy dead given form by dark magic. Even the ones with enough personality to be exorcised/talked to are mostly confined to their graves or single-minded. Would make interesting NPCs, though.

>>15441821
I like the tech points idea, though I'm not entirely sure if setting TP cost equal to XP cost would be balanced. But that's something we can determine in playtesting -- sounds like a good baseline to work off of for now.

>>15441821
I still think we should wait to see whether techs are unbalanced to use before pitting a cooldown on all of them, since most already have drawbacks to their use. Which ones are you worried about being abused?

>>15440499
I love you.

Also, to mark health and magic spent, you shade in the portions lost and erase them when they are restored.

>>15440499
I really like the overall look of this. I think the stylistic choices you made really fit the feel were going for. Like using the 16-bit sprites for the bottles or having the hyrule royal seal as a backdrop of the page.

If I may offer some constructive criticism:
-The text at the bottom explaining starting points and advancement seems hard to read. I think either a higher res image or a bigger font would help. (I would prefer the former)
-I think the character portrait slot is an interesting idea, but probably not necessary. (I hardly ever use a space to draw my character, so I'm just thinking that the space could be better spent on other things.)
-The only other thing I'm worried about is the tech slots. I think that techniques should have a section similar to magic and songs allowing for the details/damage/roll (and tech points if we go down that road).

This looks awesome. Keep up the good work.

Just posting shit spells, don't mind me

Stone Grip (Power)
Weakening
(Rank prerequisite)
Cost: 6MP
Duration: 1 round per 2 successes, rounded down
Range: 4
Area: 1 creature

-The ground near the target rises and ensnares it, turning their movements sluggish.

-The speed of the target is halved for the spell's duration. The speed of the target is also lowered by one for each success that exceeds the target's mass. If the target's speed is lowered to less than 0, the target is helpless. Flying creatures are immune to Stone Grip.

>>15443701
I like the idea of this spell, but I think 6 MP may be too steep of a cost for a single creature. Alternatively, keep it 6 MP, extend the range to say, 10, and make it an area effect (maybe 3x3 square?). This would make it a good battlefield control spell.
Your explanation of the effect is a little confusing in the wording. So, if a creature with 3 mass is affected and the caster rolls 4 successes, he would have half his speed -1?

>>15443811
I like these changes, but my suggestion is more "fluff" oriented. Since Songs are more environmentally oriented than Magic spells, perhaps the ground could be forcibly blasted or cracked, rather than doing your bidding willingly.

For inspiration.

http://db.tt/Abs70Cj

>>15444067
HELL YES. Thank you for this.

>>15444067
Hm, on a related note...
http://www.zreomusic.com/listen

This group is fantastic. And the best part is, all their stuff's available legally as a free download under the Music tab.

Flower Burrow
-Prerequisites: Deku
-XP Cost: 2
-Single Action
You can enter into a Deku Flower as a single action. As another Single Action, you can leave the flower. You can choose to exit into a space adjacent to the flower or be Launched 8 spaces.

>While inside a Deku Flower, you can detect all creatures touching the ground within 10 spaces of you, but you don't have line of sight to any creature and no creature has line of sight to you. If the flower is attacked you take no damage, but you are ejected into an empty space adjacent to the flower after the attack.

Flower Flight
-Prerequisites: Deku, Flower Burrow
-XP Cost: 5
-Single Action
Requirement: You must be inside a Deku Flower
You Launch yourself 8 spaces from the Deku Flower and begin Gliding. 
You can glide for one more Action 
>or should it be measured by points of movement used?
You can glide until you use 16 points of Movement

Goron Springboard
-Prerequisites: Goron, Physical 5
-XP Cost: 6
-Double Action
Requirement: You must be curled up
You rapidly uncurl and Launch a creature or object on top of you 6 spaces into the air.

>Launch: (Baba Bud, Spring Pad)
>You are shot a set number of spaces straight up
>You can move horizontally a number of spaces equal to half the distance you were launched vertically.

>Glide (Cucco, Deku Leaf)
>Single Action (sustained)
You move horizontally in midair a number of spaces equal to your movement.
>You descend at a rate of 2 spaces per turn (1 after each action, if you have to be technical)
>If you stop gliding, you fall.
>you move twice your speed when moving in the direction of the wind (1/2 point of Movement per space)
>You move half your speed when moving against the direction of the wind (2 points of Movement per space)

Thoughts?

>>15444603
>>15444603

Dekufag here.

I like the flower idea.

However, I don't imagine there being many flowers outside of the swamp/forest/etc.

Perhaps an item could be a Deku Flower Seed and when planted and the appropriate song is played/water is poured on it, the flower grows?

Or maybe higher "level" Deku could be able to just grow flowers?

>>15444603
>>15444655
I agree that the presence of deku flowers will probably be very limited, making the skill not applicable in many situations. Is this intended to be a combat tech? If so, it would require luck (to have a flower available and a deku with the tech) or lots of preparation before a battle to be useful.

Also, I think that the XP cost of the burrowing/flight/springboard seems too high. The rare situations in which it is useful does not justify such a steep cost.

>>15444655
I like the seed idea. It might have to be restricted by the placement of soft soil (which could be used for magic beans or other things too.) It could even be a reusable item, giving a seed when dug up to be replanted. (dunno if that should count as a cool magic item or if we should only have consumable seeds. They could ecen be Deku seeds if we wanted them to be really common.)

I bet that GM's will be kind enough to provide flowers or soil patches in places that need them to entertain the Dekus of the party, just as they would include water sections to let Zoras shine.

>>15444797
Deku nuts/seeds should be able to be planted almost anywhere; have the entry suggest that there should be at least one seed-plantable area in any given section/encounter/place. Combined with the Deku's magic, this makes them much more useful.

>>15444819
if you have picori around, you can get them anywhere.
also, deku should get boni to find those when fighting dekuranas.
making dekus the plant engineers and utility characters instead of the heavy hitters, which seems appropriate for the small, fragile race

>>15444903

Deku race confirmed for botany flavored tech-priest

ok, is there the deku flower spring attack yet?
you know, when you launch from the flower, and an enemy was stupid enough to stand above you? as far as I remember, there was not a single thing that could deal with that attack

>>15444903
>>15444914
Deku just got a lot cooler in my book.

>>15444903
Nothing stopping Deku from being a heavy hitter if they want to, since we want to avoid typecasting. But being able to plant seeds anywhere seems like a good idea.

Makar could dispense seeds into soil patches in the Wind Temple, so that could be something Koroks can do too.

It seems like we're blurring the line between Korok and Deku

What about this?


Stonebreak Slam
-Prerequisites: Goron might
-XP Cost: 6
-Double Action
Make a Physical Power attack against an adjacent enemy that has equal or less mass than you. You deal 1 Heart dmg increment and you choose one space adjacent to you where you can move your target to. You gain an extra kept dice for every 2 points of extra mass tha you have over your target.

Expert Botanist
-Prerequisites: Korok OR Deku, Mental 4
-XP Cost 6
-Passive Technique
You can plant (seeds) on any soil or dirt, instead of only patches of soft soil. You can also cause seeds planted in soft soil to mature instantly without water.
You also get a +1k0 attack bonus against other Plant creatures

Thoughts? Growing a seed instantly might either requires some kind of magic water or song (Song of Storms or a brand new one related to plants)

>>15445055
I'm not sure I understand what the attack is doing here. Is it just a push effect? Because 1H damage is quite a lot.

>>15445116

It is an attack that has the additional effect of letting you move your target to any of your adjacent squares. Considering that you have to get 2 techs before (and it costs 6 xp to get too) and that there are heavy weapons which already deal the same dmg or even more i dont think it is too overwhelming an attack, besides, you need to have two free actions to be able to use it in the first place.

Possible Racial abilities:

Survivalist
Prerequisite: Hylian
Gain a +1 on all die rolls to oppose fatigue or natural environmental damage (heat, cold, non-monster damage out of combat).

Desert Born
Prerequisite: Gerudo
A life of harshness in the sand and heat of the desert has left Gerudo people with a huge resistance to heat and fire. Gerudo are immune to non-combat heat damage (apart from lava or magical flame) and gain a +1 to all rolls opposing fire damage in combat. They also gain Sand Walk as a free ability.

Spirit of the Shadows
Prerequisite: Sheikah
Life in the darkness and training in the shadows have given the Sheikah preternatural senses in the dark and when fighting blind. Sheikah are able to see in any light condition and are immune to blinding effects.


Shitty, I know, but trying to pitch something in. This is a cool concept and I want to help.

>>15445116
Well, it is a double action and only works on smaller creatures, so 1H increment should be ok. You could use it for space control to keep enemies away from your squishies.

>>15445116
Wasn't there something to grow flowers? It was a while ago I played Ocarina of Time/Majoras Mask, but I think I remember there being something.
It wasn't the Sun's Song, I know that. Too few days in MM for that.

>Goron Slam Attack
Well, it IS a double action. So that means it's weaker than all the |Heavy| weapons we've written up so far.

>>15445183
Seems cool, but also leads too Hylians being better at resisting heat than Gorons. It's a great concept, though.

>>15445183
Survivalist seems underpowered compared to the other 2.
Would these be passive techs available at 1st lvl or actual racial bonuses?

>>15445183
The human subraces don't get racial bonuses, just discounts on certain techniques flagged as associated with that race. For example, Shiekah can take the Flash Bomb Vanish technique for half the usual XP cost.

Also, a human subrace probably shouldn't ever be a prerequisite for a technique.

>>15445179
What if it was

Make an Unarmed attack against an enemy. This attack does 1H damage per success. If you hit, push the target 2 spaces.

And we didn't flesh out mass categories, so I'll try and do that now.

Mass Categories
(near) Weightless (0)
Light (1-2)
Average (3-5)
Heavy (6-7)
Massive (8+)

Every step between your mass category and your targets mass category adds or subtracts a space pushed. So if you are Heavy and your target is Average and you hit with that attack, you push them 3 spaces. But if your target is Massive, you only push them 1 space.

>>15445183
Not sure about Desert Born as written, but I like survivalist (maybe make it a Gerudo discount tech) and the sheikah one.

But yeah, humans shouldn't have techniques only they can use, but certain cultures get those techniques earlier.

>>15445270

Well, i like the unarmed attack part, makes it easier to write, but i dont like the push part i think that getting to choose whice space you put your enemy in is way better tha just pushing them in front of you, maybe we should ask for more people opinions?

>>15445317
Easier, not earlier. Dang it.
Hang on, I'll repost some stuff from last thread to show what I mean.

Telepathy
-Prerequisites: Magic 3
-XP Cost: 4 (Hylian 2)
-Single Action
You can mentally communicate with one of your allies within 100 meters. The telepathy is two-way, and your ally can respond to your message as a single action.
Special: Certain items, such as Telepathic Tiles, may extend the range of your telepathy.

Piercing Gaze
-Prerequisites: Perception 4
-XP Cost: 6 (Sheikah 3)
-Passive Technique
When you believe that something you see is an illusion, you can make a Perception check as a free action to see through it.

Self-Sacrifice
-Prerequisites: Courage 3, Guard 3
-XP Cost: 4 (Sheikah 2)
-Free Action
If an ally adjacent to you is attacked, you can push the ally 1 space, move into their vacated space, and force the attack to target you instead.
>making this use a held action would make it less useful, but a free action might be too easy to abuse. Thoughts?

Sandwalker
-Prerequisites: Dodge 4
-XP Cost: 6 (Gerudo 3)
-Passive Technique
You can move through shifting or uneven terrain at full speed instead of half speed. 

Scouring Winds
-Prerequisites: Magic 4, Courage 3, Power 3
-XP Cost: 4 (Gerudo 2)
-Passive Technique
You deal an extra 1/4H damage per success with wind-based Magic attacks.

Healing Winds
-Prerequisites: Magic 4, Courage 3, Wisdom 3
-XP Cost: 4 (Hylian 2)
-Passive Technique
When you move an ally with a wind-based Magic spell, you heal them for 1/4H.


>And some high-end technique ideas, not necessarily race related
Warlock's Might
>Half-MP Power spells
Sage's (whatever)
>Half-MP Wisdom spells
(whatever's) Heart
>Half-MP Courage spells 

>>15445344
How about Slide instead of Push? Then they can move them wherever.

I am posting back to back all over the place, sorry.

>>15445344
If it's a slam, I think it makes more sense to knockback, but on the other hand I do like the control of choosing where your opponent ends up. My vote goes to choose your space (maybe change the name?).

>>15445398

What about Stonebreak powerbomb?? lol

>>15445398
Stonefist Suplex?

>>15445360
WAY better than what I wrote. Thanks, man. And I see what you mean on keeping them from being exclusive. The "open build" thing slipped my mind when I wrote it.

For Self Sacrifice, maybe you have to make an opposed check of some kind against the enemy and let it remain a free action. If you fail the check, you don't end up soaking any damage (or perhaps you take a little bit too) and still shove your ally. A pass means that you've successfully lunged in front of the strike.

It would be a really helpful ability for people trying to become the group tank. Fits that Sheikah get it earlier, too, given that they're the bodyguards of the royal family.

>>15445420
Suplex? Now were talking! This creates a specific image in my mind of how the tech works. I like this.

>>15445422
A check could work, maybe being an initiative check.
Still, being a free action means that someone could follow their ally and shove them around the map every round he was attacked, unless we tack a cooldown onto it.
If Held actions are more versatile (meaning you just reserve an one of your actions to take later in the round, not requiring a trigger or anything), then that might work better.

>>15445470
Thanks. This seems to be one of the end paths for a Goron wrestler tech tree

I will add to the wiki the corrected original tech i suggested with the snofist suplex ok? any objections?

>>15445610
One more thought about Stonefist Suplex:
The opponent is prone at the end of the round.
You know, since they are being suplexed.

rolled 7, 3 = 10

Don't mind me, homies. I'm just leaving some sage.

>>15445637

Ok ill this as well

>>15445610
If you can add the other techs from thread and the last, that would be great.

Also, I need to find a way to work Crazy Hassan into Gerudo society

Camel
Life: 6, Mass: 6, Speed: 12
(Kick: 1/2H)
Special: Sandwalker- The camel can move through shifting or uneven terrain at full speed instead of half speed. 

>>15445666
Nice trips!

>>15445637
Definitely. And with it being a "capstone" sort of tech, I don't think it'd too overpowered.

Also, we desperately need one of the drawfags to illustrate that tech. Because, I mean, c'mon...Goron suplex!

>>15443701
fixing (perhaps)

Faultline (Power)
Weakening
(Rank prerequisite)
Cost: 6MP
Duration: 1 round per 2 successes, rounded down
Range: 10
Area: 3x3 square focused on target creature

-With a deafening bellow, the earth below the target collapses, trapping it and any nearby creatures under a hail of debris.

-The movement of the target is reduced by half (rounded down) for the spell duration + the number of successes that exceed the target's Mass. If the target's movement is lowered to less than 0, the target is Dazed. Flying creatures are immune to Faultline

EXAMPLE:

A Twili sorcerer casts Stone Grip against a pesky Hylian swordsman (Mass 4, 6 Movement). He rolls a whopping 6 successes, so the Hylian's movement is first halved (Movement 3), then reduced by a number equal to the successes that exceed his Mass (6 successes, 4 mass), reducing the swordsman's Movement to a mere 1.

A Kokiri was hiding behind the Hylian, so she is also affected by the spell. Her Movement is halved, rounding down (Movement 3), then reduced further (6 successes, Mass 3). Her movement is reduced to 0, so she becomes Dazed until the spell expires.

(this spell is too wordy oh god why did i do this)

>>15445770
What if it just made the area into unstable terrain as an effect (possibly determined by successes) and dazed or immobilized foes in the area (as seperate attack rolls?)

Also, are we going with Stun as -1 action and Dazed as -2 actions, or the other way around?

>>15443251
I'm not sure putting a maximum is necessary. Each player would start out with 0 or 1 tech points and have to build up to their use. We could have a passive technique called Combat Technician that lets you start combat with a larger pool of tech points. As far as techniques that use magic, they could be given a reduced cost or something, just so we don't have to make an exception to the tech-points = XP rule.

>>15442374
Currently the only real concern would be somebody using Mortal Draw every turn, as far as balance goes, but people are definitely going to pick at least a couple techniques they love and accept the downside of and just run with them. If we have some mechanic to encourage rationing of active technique use, we can also remove most of the penalties from them and have them just be awesome things you can do that go above and beyond.

As it sits currently, I don't think there will be much of a balance issue with techniques, except if somebody has a concept that doesn't employ many techniques. This person will be left behind in performance.

Actually, just limiting tech use with points doesn't really fix that last problem, as somebody who doesn't have any or many active techniques will have a pool of points they can't use. IF we decide to implement the tech points, I propose a way to use them in combat to simply augment an Attack, Active Defense, or appropriate Skill roll. 1 tech point = 1 additional rolled die. 2 tech points = 1 additional kept die. Spend what you've got.

Anywho, we can see how techniques work without the point system first, I just wanted to avoid a situation where buying active techniques > other expenditures of xp.

Rock Breaker (Passive)
Prerequisite: Power 2, Melee 2
XP cost: 2
Sword attacks made by the character gain the Smash keyword.

Peril Beam (Active)
Prerequisite: Courage 4
XP cost: 5
If the character has 1 heart or less left, his sword attacks gain range 10 and a 2h damage increment.

>>15445969
>Also, are we going with Stun as -1 action and Dazed as -2 actions, or the other way around?

I thought it was decided a long time ago that Stun was 1 action and Daze was multiple...
Might confuse 4e players at first, but it makes a lot more sense to me that way. The concept of being "stunned" for longer than a second or two just always sounded odd to me, while being "dazed" for a long time sounds perfectly reasonable.

I'd say Stun is always just one lost action on your next turn, while Daze is lose all actions for the next X turns, as specified by the effect.

>>15445979
Good idea, we can put the ideas in a Brainstorming section on the wiki and come back to it later.

>>15446003
I had a Sword Beam tech lying around from a few threads back. Would Peril Beam need it as a prerequisite?

Sword Beam
-Prerequisite: Melee 5, Courage 4
-XP Cost: 6
-Single Action
Requirement: You must be wielding a sword and be at full Life.
Make a Melee attack with your sword against one enemy within 10 spaces of you. Your weapon deals Light damage.

>>15446042
Stun could be for X turns too.

Also, here's the Spin Attack from the wiki
Spin Attack (Active)
Requirements: |Melee| 1
XP Cost: 2
Actions: 2
After taking an action to prepare the Spin Attack the player may make a |Melee|(Power)[knockback] action striking all adjacent targets. Once an action has been taken to prepare the player may hold his action to perform the |Melee|(Power) portion of this technique at any time. Taking damage or performing any action other than moving at half movement interrupts this technique.

And this is one I made

Spin Attack 
-Prerequisites: Melee 2
-XP Cost: 3
-Two Actions
First Action: You charge your weapon and can move up to half your speed. 
Second Action: Make a melee attack against each enemy within 1 space of you

Is there a preference?

>>15446133
I like the prereqs and XP cost on yours better.

>>15446235
I was more worried about the wording and mechanics.

Here are the other techs from the same post, thoughts in these?

Jump Attack
-Prerequisites: Melee 2
-XP Cost: 2
-Double Action
Move two spaces towards an enemy and make a melee attack. You deal 2x damage with each success from this attack.

Magic Spin 
-Prerequisites: Spin Attack, Melee 2, Power 3
-XP Cost: 4
-Free Action
When charging your Spin Attack, you can choose to spend 2MP to increase the range of the attack by 1 and another 2MP to do 2x damage.

Great Spin
-Prerequisites: Spin Attack, Magic Spin, Melee 6, Power 4, Courage 4, Wisdom 4
-XP Cost: 8
-Double Action(6MP)
First Round: You spend this time charging up your attack. If you take damage between this turn and the beginning of your next turn, you lose the charge but do not lose any MP.
Second Round: Move a number of spaces up to twice your movement and make a melee attack against each enemy within your weapon's reach. Your attack does 2x damage.
You are now Dazed until the end of your next turn.

>>15447050

WOW, the jump attack definetly needs to be toned down, as it is now 2x dmg is waay too much for a tech that is awfully easy to get, i mean it deals almost the same dmg sneak attack deals (it depens on the weapon) but it is way too easy to pull.

>>15447133
I agree. XP should be in the 3-4 range with jump attack as written. More melee skill prereq too?
>>15447050
Magic spin seems like it makes great spin useless. You can do the same damage at a greater range for less MP and there's no dazed at the end. The prereqs on great spin are killer too: 4 in all virtues?

>>15447247
Small correction on my part: I read on great spin 'half' instead of 'double' your movement. I still think magic spin is better though.

Jump attack definitely shouldnt deal the same amount of dmg as sneak attack, the later was specifically designed to be very situational with the advantage of dealing massive amount of dmg. Jump attack is simply too easy to use, it doesnt need any setup at all. Either we make jump attack weaker (i vote for this) or we make sneak attack more powerful.

>>15447309
You're right. Jump attack should be weaker. Sneak attack is already powerful as it is. How should we nerf jump attack then? Make it add +1/4H dmg increment?

>>15447309
Add an extra 1/4H damage? I was trying to model how the game treated the Jump Attack originally.

>>15447342

Well, add 1/4 dmg increment seems a reasonable fix for the tech.

Thinking again, 1/2H increment is probably more appropriate since it is a double action.

I agree, but then it should be in the 4-6 xp cost range to prevent that every starting PC gets it.

>>15445666
>>15445681
>he thinks that trips are worth shit on /tg/
>he congratulates while namefagging
>he is a cunt about the thread

hello summerfag. Not that I want to tell you what to do, but you clearly will not get good grades for those weak trolling attempts

>>15447471
I guess it does, since it's putting the damage you could do with two regular attack actions into a double action, plus some movement.

Most swords are 1/2H though.

>>15447632
Actually, it's almost worse than attacking twice because you have to have a certain amount of space between you and the enemy to pull it off and can only attack one target.

>>15447632
The key benefit of this is that it will deal about as much as two attacks, but the target only gets their armor reduction once. It seems fine with adding 1/2 to the increment for the attack, but should definitely have a higher xp-cost, probably 4 or 5.

This is one of those techniques I was talking about when, after you get it, why would you ever make a normal attack? I guess if you don't have a double action to spend, but still. But yes, increase cost and I think it's fine for the wiki.

Question about heavy techniques. A lot of them on the wiki have automatic effects that stun and/or knock prone without any chance for a target to resist. Is that the way we want to keep it? Seems a bit extreme without a roll involved.

>>15447908
The technique doesn't mention the movement as being mandatory. If that's so, it should be made explicit.

Do we have grapple mechanics?

Jointsnapper
-Prerequisites: Power 3, Brawler
-XP Cost: 4
Attacks done to an enemy the character has grappled recieve a 1/2h damage increment

>>15447908
>>15448008
I think that the movement should be optional (up to 2 spaces). Only working when exactly 2 spaces away would make the attack very hard to use.

>>15448605
True, since your enemy has to be in exactly the right place on your turn.

So, an extra 1/2H damage instead of double damage, optional jump movement, and XP 4 and Melee 3 requirements?

Also, what about Magic Spin?

>>15449459
I'm pulling from OoT here. How about making magic spin require multiple actions to charge? 1 charging action does a regular spin attack (hits enemies within your weapon's reach). After 2 actions, you can use 2MP to make the spin attack do double damage. And after 3 actions (a round and a half), you can use another 2MP (total 4) to make the attack reach 1 square beyond your weapon's reach. The fully powered magic spin would take a total of 4 actions, or 2 rounds (3 charging, 1 release).
Of course you have the option to hold for as many rounds as you like before releasing it, and you may also choose not to use MP and simply do a normal spin attack at any time after the first charging action.

I said above 'within the weapon's reach' instead of 'within 1 square' because reach weapons like the halberd should not be penalized and should get the same bonuses as if you were using a sword.

Should we allow the user to move at half speed while charging as part of the charging action, or should they have to use an action to move half speed?

(On a side note, I'm the same anon who suggested the 'Sap Strength' spell and the 'tech points' system. Roughly 1/3 of the anon posts in this thread are mine. Should I start naming myself for clarity?)

>>15449459
Magic Spin probably should be a damage increment boost rather than a double damage.

Also, Great Spin needs to be more accessible. With prereqs of 4 in ALL virtues, it's nigh-impossible to get (a human character would have to spend at least 55 XP just to meet the Virtue prereqs (start with 4 in one Virtue, 20 XP to increase one from 3 to 4, 35 XP to increase the last from 2 to 4), and a non-human would have to spend even more thanks to not having the bonus Virtue point. And then you still have to max out your Melee skill and buy the Spin Attack and Magic Spin techs...

Better to tone down the tech a little and cut the Virtue prereqs entirely.

>>15449459

That seem just right for jump attack

>>15449922
I find it easier to continue conversations when there are namefags involved, but that could just be me.

>>15449934
I agree. It should be more accessible, but have enough of a cost and significant drawbacks so it's not getting overused or overpowered.

>>15449934
It's supposed to be an extremely powerful tech. Also, those numbers seem really off for Virtue costs. It would take someone dozens of sessions to raise a virtue to level 3.

>>15449922
This is me. I have now taken a name.

On the virtue reqs for great spin, I'm thinking have "9 Total Virtues". The starting amount is 7, and if you're human you get 1 more, so that's only 2 virtue adv. for non-humans, and 1 for humans. It's a hefty investment, but definitely doable.
I think Great Spin needs to be improved to fit all the requirements it has. This is the end of the tech tree right?

>>15450094
Ah, I was miscalculating the starting array; I was thinking you could have a starting spread of 4/3/2 as a human, but actually the best you can do is 4/2/2. So if the cost for increasing a Virtue is 5 x next level, then you'd have, for a human:
>Increase from 2 to 3: 3*5 = 15
>Increase from 3 to 4: 4*5 = 20
>Total cost to get one Virtue to 4: 20 + 15 = 35

Times two since you need to boost two Virtues, and you're spending a whopping 70 XP just on Virtues. Add 10 for non-humans, since their starting array would be 4/2/1.
And then you still need to drop 15 XP on |melee| ranks, plus 6 more for the Spin Attack and Magic Spin techs. And then 8 more XP for the Great Spin itself.
Total cost: 99 XP (or 109 for a non-human). With 2 XP given at character creation and assuming a (very generous) yield of 5 XP per session, it'd take you 20 sessions to save up enough for this (22 for a non-human). I really doubt most campaigns in this system will run that long, and even for a very long-running campaign you're probably at least to the midpoint by the time you get this technique. And you'd still be a pretty sorry one-trick pony -- sure, your Virtues are good, but other than that and 3 ranks in some other skills you have jack shit besides SPINSPINSPIN.

This is in not a good way to design a technique. We can still have a powerful technique without requiring that a player spend half the campaign building up to it to the exclusion of all else. It would be much better to nerf the technique to make it more accessible. And frankly, I think even as written now it shouldn't require quite *that* much of a barrier to access.

>>15450194
>On the virtue reqs for great spin, I'm thinking have "9 Total Virtues". The starting amount is 7, and if you're human you get 1 more, so that's only 2 virtue adv. for non-humans, and 1 for humans. It's a hefty investment, but definitely doable.

This is more on the right track, though I'd recommend something a bit more specific -- I'd say 4 ranks in either Power or Courage, 3 ranks in the other of the two. Wisdom doesn't seem very appropriate at all for this tech.
This would mean a minimum of one Virtue advancement, totalling 15 XP, for a nonhuman, and it would be accessible from character creation for a human character.

Considering that you're costing yourself *2 entire turns* for your one turn of spinrape, I don't think it really needs to be that difficult to get. Action economy is incredibly important in RPGs, and I think two turns spent doing nothing is a fine cost to balance the technique without prohibitive prereqs.

Do we have enough techs for a "playtest package"? What do we need next? Spells or songs? Or dungeon material?

>>15450420
> Action economy is incredibly important in RPGs, and I think two turns spent doing nothing is a fine cost to balance the technique without prohibitive prereqs.
especially since you have to start all over if you get hit

>>15451091
I think we have *enough* techs for a very bare-bones playtest, at least, though I think a number of them need some review and refinement -- a few have been substantially altered from the original proposals, without any group feedback having been given on the matter. A few that caught my eye:

>Follow-through no longer moves you toward the opponent
That's not how a follow-through works...if you've put yourself off-balance, you can't rebalance yourself without moving.

>Assassin's Training no longer affects light thrown weapons (needles/shuriken/darts/etc.)
Seems rather thematically inappropriate, but an easy fix.

>Staggering Blow is all kinds of screwed up
"The target is Stunned their next round, and Dazed for the next."
I think somebody didn't know what "Staggering" was, and didn't bother checking the GM Resources section...

>Tripshot no longer cares about Mass, and is ambiguous as to whether it deals damage or not.

>The Brutal Strike tech increases the knockback for |heavy| weapons...but other than spin attack, there's no way to get knockback.
This tech is based off of the proposed "Heavy Blow", which was a passive technique that added knockback to any attacks made with |heavy| weapons. My proposal: Keep Brutal Strike as-is, but rename it to Heavy Blow, and add Brutal Strike as a low-tier |heavy| technique with knockback.

>>15451091
I think the most important thing is definitely getting magic and songs figured out and added to the wiki. We have a lot of effort into combat techniques, but it would be a bit sparse for somebody who wanted to play a "mage" type character.

>>15451091

Since there's currently only the dungeon material I took from Zelda Wiki and the few puzzle concepts someone else posted, I think dungeon material's due its time in the limelight.

The main problem I see is designing your campaign's first dungeon so everyone feels useful, no matter what race or items they chose (restricting starting items to the basics would help a lot, but it'd still be tricky).
After that, the flow of new keywords on both sides is under your control and you can base the new dungeons off the first one, but the variety of challenges that a Bomb/Hammer Goron, Sword/Boomerang Zora, Bow/Grappling Hook Rito party can handle are way beyond a simple three Sword/Shield Hylian party.
___

"well-liked twilate", Captcha? That's incredibly relevant to the topic compared to some of the stuff you come out with.

Also, the image of a Goron with glasses got in my head and won't come out.

>>15451824
A starter dungeon that uses lots of elements could be made and "packaged" with the stuff we want people to playtest. It could have puzzles and encounters that could be solved many different ways.

>>15452391
Good idea. It would be interesting to see what kind of different data we got from different groups all using the same dungeon for play testing.

Water pool
Switch room from the previous thread
A room with two high walls: a key switch (switch that requires a small key) on one wall and a key on the other. Lots of blocks in the middle of the room that have to be arranged into a two way staircase.
Torch lighting puzzle, with a specific order with a clue to it hidden nearby (maybe 231)
Jumping section

What else should be shown off?

I have had this in my mind for a while now:

Zoran Spy (Passive)
-Prerequisites: Zora, Stealth 3
-XP Cost: 3
If you enter any body of water, you can make a stealth roll to hide from any creature outside of said body of water.

What do you think? does this kind of strategy merits a tech in itself or should it be a normal thing to do with bodies of wather.

>>15454575
Unless you're talking something like becoming completely invisible while in water (which would probably require magic), I don't think that should need a tech. Water should be able to provide the necessary cover/concealment for attempting a stealth check.

>>15454586
I agree. It also helps things like octoroks, river zora, and toadpoli be good artillery, diving underwater after they attack.

I think there should be a tech that let's nonzora fight underwater without penalty, and maybe gives Zora a bonus to fighting underwater (equal to the penalty difference.
Is -2k0 a good penalty for underwater fighters without that kind of technique.

>>15454856
Sounds good to me.

>>15454856
I agree with this too. What should the tech be called? Underwater Expertise? Marine Combatant?

>>15451390
I fixed Follow-through and Assassin Training. Not sure what to do about the others.

Also, during a character creation session last night, my friend and I realized there are no |Ranged| techniques that a starting character can get with the 2xp available at generation.

Additionally, Heavy armor prevents special maneuvers without special training, but what constitutes a special maneuver or how to get special training is not covered. For the character involved I made up the following:

Goron Armor Training
XP Cost: 2
You can use your Goron racial abilities while wearing heavy armor.

Alright, no one wants to play the wizard who is out of spells. So here is just some quick “last resort but still better than trying to use my weapon skill I put no points in” spells. I see these as sort of a combat blessing from the goddess or some other flavor thing to keep the two recovery ones from being spammed between every combat (While Din's by it's use is implied to be combat only, it keeps the restriction for consistency both with the other two, and with it's name).

Din's Temperance
Actions: 2
MP: 0 (combat only)
Range: 5
Duration: Instant
Success: Fire 1/4H

Nayru's Patience
Actions: 2
MP: 0 (Combat only)
Range: Self
Duration: Instant
Success: Restore 1 MP (Maybe make this for 2 successes?)

Farore's Valor
Actions: 2
MP: 0 (Combat only)
Range: Touch
Duration: Instant
Success: Heal 1/2H

>>15456657
I like these. Should probably make them only available if out of mp. MP normally only comes back from drops off monsters or potions or a night's rest, yeah? With the format we have magic working on now, I'm assuming attack spells are still opposed by the target's defense roll. The exact mechanics (such as they are so far) should really be added to the wiki.

But yes, I like these spells. A decent fall-back for the mage out of mp.

>>15456772
I am fine either way, but I am not sure if I see the need to restrict it to 0 MP only considering, if you HAVE MP, basic fire and basic healing are much better options than Din's and Farore's, and Nayru's is useful for the "Spell I really wanna cast is 1 or 2 more MP than I have" situation.
And in a smiler vein the "only at 0" clause will seem really arbitrary to a player who has 1 and either nothing to cast, or nothing worth casting.

But limiting them to being JUST a last resort is fine too, if that is the consensus. Farore's still needs the combat only restriction or something like it to keep from "I am at 0 MP, we wait until I cast it enough times to heal everyone back to full"

>>15456637
>I fixed Follow-through and Assassin Training. Not sure what to do about the others.
I'll take a crack at those in the next post...

>Heavy armor prevents special maneuvers without special training, but what constitutes a special maneuver or how to get special training is not covered.
Ah, this is a placeholder for a detail that was never quite fleshed out. We need to decide which techs shouldn't be available in heavy armor, and then have a tech to remove that restriction. Possibly several different techs, for different categories (one for |acrobatics|, one for |melee|, and so forth).

>>15456657
Personally, I think running out of spells is kind of part of the whole mage "package", so to speak. You can do things above and beyond what others can manage, but with limited repeatability. It's a balancing factor that you should be aware and accepting of when you choose that path. Plus, given that it's relatively easy to restore MP in this system due to enemy drops and such, I'm not sure if running out of MP is even going to be that big an issue unless you really underestimate how long the fight will take.
But the way this system works, it's not difficult for a GM to simply make those spells unavailable, so I don't see the harm in including them.
Just a few things that need fixed:
First off, are these effects supposed to be scaling or not? For the old spell descriptions that used the "success" line, that indicated the effect *per* success, but that seems a bit too powerful for these effects, and doesn't seem to be your intent anyway.
Second, Courage doesn't do healing; that's Wisdom's area. I'd say cut the MP-restoring one, move the healing one to Wisdom, and give Courage something else. Probably either a slight offensive buff, or a battlefield mobility/rearrangement effect.

>>15456931
The whole "mages run out of magic" thing is a really pervasive theme in traditional games (and other areas), but it's something that's only appropriate if magic is decidedly more powerful than martial abilities, which is I think not what we're going to wind up with in this system. Having a few fallback spells with minimal effects to use when your good stuff is gone seems a fine thing to me.

(Let's see if 4chan works long enough for me to post)
>>15457102
Pretty much this.
It is also my experience with systems that use running out of magic as a balancing factor that it leads to the mage either having less fun when it happens because they are out of ways to contribute, or the adventuring day ends when the mage is out of spells meaning it is not a balancing factor after all.

Anyways in regards to >>15456931's spell specific questions
Firstly, I intended them to scale, like the spells on the list wiki, that is why they are twice the actions as well as half the effectiveness, if they should be static I'd double their effect (making them do the minimum that the basic spells would), but I may be totally off base in balancing that.
As for Farore's being a wisdom based spell, yeah thanks for catching that, I got confused with some stuff I read in this thread and gave the breakdown another look. My preference is to drop the healing spell to re-tool it to something courage based, I like the whole “focus to gain more magic energy” thing, but I could also see a good argument for healing being more fundamental than getting some MP back.

>>15457186
Gaining back MP would be the thing to drop, if anything. MP can be recovered upon killing an enemy, so these spells should really just be about getting you there. The healing should be Wisdom, and for Courage probably something like throwing up a shield or a buff or debuff of some kind.

Magic drops are common. It's not that bad.

If it is, we can fix it later. We keep getting hung up on things.

>>15457186
>that is why they are twice the actions as well as half the effectiveness

Ah, I didn't catch the double action bit, that helps a lot.
I think >>15457573 has a point, though -- we probably have more important things to worry about now than this. Probably best to put it on the back burner for the time being.

On that subject, how about those technique fixes I promised before /tg/ locked up?

>Brutal Strike

Wiki version:
>Brutal Strike (Passive)
>Requirements: |Heavy| 2, Power 4
>XP Cost: 3
>Your knockbacks with Heavy weapons gain an additional +1 to knockback.

Original proposal:
>Heavy Blow (Passive)
>Prereq: Heavy 2
>Your attacks hit with greater force.
>Attacks you make with |heavy| weapons gain Knockback 1. If the attack already has a Knockback rating, that rating improves by 1.

Problem #1: I think Virtue prereqs should be avoided where possible, and for this one in particular it seems quite inappropriate.
Problem #2: Currently, there are very few ways to gain knockback on an attack, and making it only increase existing knockback seems to defeat the purpose of the original proposal.

Proposed fix: Make two different techniques (detailed in the next post).

>>15457637
Heavy Blow (Passive)
Prereq: |Heavy| 2
XP Cost: 2
Your blows carry unusual force. |Heavy| attacks with the Knockback quality that you make have their Knockback rating increased by 1.

Brutal Strike (Active)
Prereq: |Heavy| 3
XP Cost: 2
Actions: 1 attack
You strike the enemy a mighty blow, pushing it away from you. Make a normal |heavy| attack; it gains Knockback 1.

Next one:
>Staggering Blow

Wiki version:
>Staggering Blow (Active)
>Requirements: |Heavy| 3
>XP Cost: 3
>Actions: 1 attack
>Smash the target with the blunt of your weapon. The target is Stunned their next round, and Dazed for the next.

Problem #1: Adding such a powerful effect with absolutely no drawback aside from buying the technique is a Bad Idea™, particularly for a tech with such low prereqs.
Problem #2: The effect makes no sense. Lose one action on the next turn, and all of them on the one after that? WTF?

Let's go back to the original proposal here:

>Staggering Blow
>Prereq: Heavy 3, Heavy Blow
>2 actions (delivery) + 1 action (recovery)
>You can deliver an attack with staggering force.
>You must use a |heavy| weapon to deliver this technique. This technique allows you to make a melee attack with the Staggering quality. You must still use an action to ready your weapon after using this technique, just as you would if you had attacked normally.

>>15457654
The Staggering tag is described in the GM resources section:
>Staggering: The target of a Staggering effect suffers different consequences depending on the defence used:
>>A target using a shield defence is Stunned whether the attack is successful or not (since a successful shield defense is still being struck by the blow).
>>A target using a non-shield defence suffers Knockback 1 and Knockdown if the Staggering attack hits, but avoids these effects if the attack misses (since a successful non-shield defense dodges or deflects the force of the attack rather than absorbing it).

Personally, I think the original proposal wasn't too far from the mark.

Proposed fix:

Staggering Blow (Active)
Prereq: |Heavy| 4, Brutal Strike
XP Cost: 4
Actions: 2 actions
You strike a powerful blow with the blunt of your weapon. As a double action, make a |heavy| attack with the Staggering quality.

We may or may not want to include a reminder of what Staggering entails in the tech description.

Speaking of which, I noticed when I went to grab the Staggering description from the GM resources section that a lot of the tags there for weapons and stuff could probably use some revision. Something else to add to the to-do list before we put this thing to playtest.

>>15457693
The Tripshot tech could also use another look, and I noticed a couple others in need of tweaking as well, but I don't have anything prepared for those at the moment, and I need to be getting to bed. Plus I think what I've just provided is plenty to chew on in one sitting anyway; I feel like it just gets overwhelming when too much is dumped out all at once. So I'll get around to those sometime tomorrow.

>>15457693
>>15457654
>>15457637

I'm fine with those fixes. Balanced, well-detailed, explicit, and fits together nicely. Staggering and other such possible effects should definitely be clarified, revised if needed, and listed for easy access.

And now a point of minutia. Stunned really should be worse than Dazed, linguistically. I think we should swap the names of these two effects. Coming from a lot of D&D, having Dazed be worse than Stunned is grinding strangely in my head. Could just be me.

Hey, guys, thanks for the feedback! I'm working on a high res version and will try to take some of the constructive criticism into consideration.
Also, I had really wanted a way to track ranks in both Attributes and Virtues that visually defined both the minimum and maximum ranks for each. I was able to accomplish that before with the Attributes, but couldn't find an elegant way to do it with Virtues while keeping the Triforce theme. I wanted to get your thoughts on this [pic related] solution.
I also decided to experiment with the little Attribute wheels by making them hollow rings so that you could mark your ranks in the outer ring and write temporary bonuses/penalties inside the inner circle, but I'm not quite sure how I feel about this yet. Feedback greatly appreciated.

>>15458979

I cant come up with any useful criticism, just one petition. Culd you make it a editable pdf file, so we can edit values in the pc before printing, i dont like to handwrite in my char sheets since i have hideous handwriting.

I tried to make some techniques for magic users so they have more to spend XP on than just attr/skills/virts.

Wisdom of the [Mountain/Ocean/Sky/Night] (Passive)
Prerequisites: |Magic| 3, Charge Spell
XP cost: 4
Whenever you cast a spell that does [(fire or earth)/(water or ice)/wind/shadow] damage, that spell gets an additional +1k0. Also, the spell may be charged using Charge Spell at -1MP cost.

I also thought about having active techniques that modify spells like metamagic.

Spell Expansion (Active)
Prerequisites: |Magic| 3
XP Cost: 3
Any spell with an area of effect can be expanded to cover 1 additional square in both dimensions (e.g. 3x3 becomes 4x4).
(If we use the tech-point system, then I think this should be fine. But if we don't, then I think this should have a MP cost in the 1-2 range)

>>15458979
Hrmmm, I don't think Virtue should be listed next to the skills, since I don't think that is always a fixed thing (Like Melee can be Courage if you have your Sword, but when you pull out an axe, that's Power)

>>15458979
Might be too late for this, but that Zelda font really doesn't look very good on words other than "Zelda".

>>15458691
>Stunned really should be worse than Dazed, linguistically. I think we should swap the names of these two effects. Coming from a lot of D&D, having Dazed be worse than Stunned is grinding strangely in my head.

Technically speaking, outside of an RPG context, "stunned" and "dazed" are actually synonyms, with virtually no difference in actual meaning. In fact, the word "stun" actually appears in the definition for "daze" in many dictionaries. And since the only difference for our system is duration, I think it makes more sense to have "stunned" be a single action on the next round, while "dazed" is all actions for one or more rounds. As I've mentioned before in these threads, "stunned" to me carries the connotation of a momentary debilitation, pretty much always due to a sharp blow or other shock, while "dazed" can be a more lasting condition brought on by a number of causes. In addition to the issue of duration, there's also causes to think about -- for instance, the Great Spin technique costs you all actions on the turn after you use it, right? If we used the term "stunned" to describe that condition, it wouldn't make sense in this context -- you don't become "stunned" from something like that. "Dazed", on the other hand, makes perfect sense in this scenario.

TL;DR -- In my mind, it's not so much a matter of magnitude as it is of cause and duration, and from that perspective it doesn't make sense to switch them.

It's probably because my understanding of the terms is influenced more by literature than D&D. And even what little D&D exposure I have is all 3.X, where there's no difference whatsoever in terms of how many actions the two conditions cost you -- it's just that stunning has more effects on top of losing actions.

>>15458979
I like the open circles for Attributes, but I think I prefer the old Triforce layout for Virtues.
Also, I agree with >>15461400 -- very few skills use only a single Virtue, so having a line for that isn't a great idea. I'd say cut that column and use the extra space to expand the Techniques section a little.

Don't listen to >>15461544, though, I think the font looks great.

I'm back, now the question remains. What kind of mask should ye old Mr Kaneeli the Mask Maker be working on?

>>15461814
I'm in agreement here on all 3 points.

>>15460862
I think these (and more like them) will be a good addition to our magic system, especially if we implement the tech-point mechanic.

I still think you should avoid tacking more stuff onto the system. It's better when it's simple.

>>15461924

Oh I wasnt putting on a show I was actually asking you guys to throw me masks to make. I know theirs only one hes holding but there will be masks in the background.

So please, request some masks.

>>15463724
Phanto Mask
Korok Mask
Bremen Mask

I need stuff to draw too.

>>15460431
as soon as I get the high res version done and learn how to do that, which shouldn't be very hard
>>15461400
the same argument can be made for Magic and Songs. Should I ditch the Virtue lines for those as well?
>>15461544
wat?
>>15461814
>I like the open circles for Attributes
Oh, good. They're starting to grow on me too.
>but I think I prefer the old Triforce layout for Virtues.
Hrm... how much to you prefer it? Because the new layout is starting to grown on me too now that I've gotten away with it and I'm looking at it with a fresh perspective. Also, I like consistency.
>I'd say cut that column and use the extra space to expand the Techniques section a little.
As I mentioned above, the same argument can be made for Magic and Songs, so should I cut the Virtue columns for those as well? Also, by expanding the Techniques section do mean giving them a similar layout to Magic and Songs?
>>15462240
Duly noted.

>>15464285
>now that I've gotten away with it
I meant now that I've gotten away from* it

Has any more thought been given to one anon's previous suggestion that focusing on one virtue should have both plusses and drawbacks?

Like the whole power > wisdom All damage increased by 1/4 heart, all damage taken increased by 1/4 heart, etc?

>>15464362
I kinda like that idea. However, I would make it so that it's only in effect when power is significantly greater than wisdom (probably about 3). That way you don't accidentally make a character, for example, that is tank specialized, but takes more damage because he overlooked a small detail in his virtues.

Could it also go the other way around? Wis > Pwr = -1/4H damage done and +1/4H damage taken?

>>15464417
I mean -1/4H dmg done, and -1/4H damage taken.

>>15464428
>>15464417
>>15464362
I'm not sure we'd gain much from that, except to even further extend the effects of min/maxing. Seems unnecessary and possibly too much.

>>15464362
I think we should try and get the system "playable" with as little bloat as possible first.

>>15461924

What about a river zora mask,

>>15461924

What about a river zora mask

Is my Twili still being drawn?

>>15464285
>the same argument can be made for Magic and Songs. Should I ditch the Virtue lines for those as well?
Not sure, I think Spells have a fixed Virtue, just looking over what I have seen, which means it might be helpful to have that listed on your sheet with the spell.

I am not 100% sure about songs though, from the examples on the wiki I am not even sure if you roll for them. Someone care the clarify the exact mechanics?

>>15466782
I believe we were planning to require unopposed skill checks for success/failure for at least the more powerful songs, much like we were for spells. And some songs will have potential opposed uses that would require a check (such as using the Sun Song to paralyze Redeads).

>>15464285
The Virtue line should definitely stay for the magic and songs, since any given spell or song will only use a single Virtue (even though different spells/songs will use different Virtues).

Also, I personally am quite attached to the Triforce layout for Virtues on the character sheet, but if you want to have a way to indicate maximum and minimum ranks, how about something like this?

Important Question: When you Sustain a spell (I assuming by spending an action) does it use up MP again?

>>15467853
I'm actually starting to prefer the new Virtues layout tbh, especially because it's more consistent with the Attributes layout. Your suggestion isn't bad though, so if enough people really want the old layout back that badly then I guess I'll give it a shot. I got rid of the Virtues column for Skills and made a smaller line for temporary bonuses/penalties simply labeled "+/-", labeled the second Techniques column for Damage/Effects, stuck a "Roll" column in their for Techniques (I hope this is sufficient, because adding Virtues and Attributes columns would take significantly more effort), and relabeled the Character Portrait section to "Notes" for taking Campaign/Dungeon notes.

>>15464362
>>15464417
I have to agree with the Friendly Neighborhood DM, this seems like a lot of unnecessary complexity.

>>15460862
I like these ideas, we should definitely try to refine and expand those to fill out the technique selection for |magic|.

And speaking of techniques, here are my thoughts on Tripshot. Sorry it took me so long to get around to it, today was my birthday so I had other things to attend to.

The version of Tripshot on the wiki is:
>Tripshot (Active)
>Requirements: |Ranged| 3
>XP Cost:
>Weapons: "Grip" ranged weapon
>Actions: 1
>Fire at the the feet of a target to attempt to knock them prone. Use a normal |Ranged| attack roll opposed by the target's Physical/Courage. The target may substitute an |Acrobatics| roll to oppose if it has prepared an acrobatic active defense. If you score more successes than the target, it is knocked prone.

The main issue here is that the original proposal included modifiers based on relative Mass. It was kind of messy, and I won't post it here, but I think the basic idea makes sense -- a lightweight is going to have a hard time pulling a big guy off his feet, while the big guy will have no trouble yanking the lightweight around. Thus, I propose that we add a penalty for every size category smaller you are than the target, and a bonus for every category bigger -- probably +/- 1k1 per category of difference.
Also, I think we should specify that this attack doesn't deal damage, and price it at 2 XP.

>>15467915
I believe that was always the intention with sustained spells, yes. I could be wrong though. With all the stuff that gets proposed it's often difficult to keep track of what has gained functionally universal support.

>>15468071
forgot to post the updated pic
high res version still in progress

>>15467915
Yes, sustained effects consume MP every turn. Though I don't think we should require actions to sustain, considering that it would apply to things like the Lens of Truth and such. Some effects could require actions every turn to maintain, but I don't think it should be a universal rule for all spells with a "Sustained" cost.

>>15467915
The game examples I can think of off-hand do (Cane of Byrna, Magic Cape, Lens of Truth), but I worry about there being a double penalty with spending an action AND MP to sustain a spell.

>>15468151
they don't require actions to sustain. you use an action to activated the effect and then the steadily draining MP is what keeps it active.

>>15468151
>>15468190
>>15468113
Okay, sounds good.

I have somebody rolling a Korok spellcaster, and I have to say, unless you specialize your type of magic you're going to run into some serious multiple-ability-dependency. At first I thought this was bad, but then I realized that the same would apply to a person who tried to use every category of weapon. They'd need every virtue. I just wanted to point this out so people don't flip and cry "mages need buff." Focusing on a type of magic is functionally like focusing on a category of weapons, and I think that's okay, personally.

Ugh. Hey, friendly Neighborhood DM, here's that Rito Messenger. Sorry it took so damned long. Sems like every day I get to post here, I spend several days unable to get to a computer...

Let me know if you want me to redo it in the same quality that I did Shiro; this was kind of rushed...

>>15466653
You the guy who wanted the Twili Swordsorceress fighting the Darknut? Yeah I'm going to try to get that done today.

Well, bump I suppose.
To contribute to the thread: does anyone have that list of suggested damages for weapons?
I think it was 1/4->1/2->3/4 for light ones, and 1->1+1/2->2 for heavy. Does that make sense? Currently the only listed |Heavy| weapons are 1+1/2H and 2H, which is... slightly powerful for starting characters.

Oh, and Jump Attack doesn't really need changing. It's as spammable as |Heavy| weapons for less damage.
Compare:
>Move two squares, do double damage (1H most often) as a double action
>Spend one action to do damage, 1+1/2H per success, spend another to pick up the weapon again
Jump Attack is weaker than just going full-on Heavy.
It's also pretty situational. If an enemy is out of range, you can't just run up to him and Jump Attack without giving him two actions in between.
But yeah, my opinions.
(I'm also partial to MMO-style recharge times, even tough I've never played one! Crazy, I know.)

>Archive:
>http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15433135/
>Business as usual, vote up etc.
Oh, and we're at 209 posts. 91 left till autosage, so no need to worry.

>>15470809
>You the guy who wanted the Twili Swordsorceress fighting the Darknut?
That's me. By the way, nice work on the pic.

I know it's kinda late, but in case I try to contribute, I've taken a name.

>>15471008
Heavy weapons do seem strong, but they aren't quite so strong when they can only be used once a round. Still very powerful fir starting characters, though.

Also, should we allow bows or other items at chargen? Typically you find your bow at least a dungeon into the game, and are very good for ranged combat or solving puzzles.

New PC's start with 2 xp for techniques, however I noticed that all of the ranged techniques cost 3 xp or more, so you can't start with one. Was this intentional?

>>15471523
I guess it depends on what the PCs themselves are. Are we assuming that they are on the level of the Castle Guard or such? Sure, bows. If they're just on the level of commoners they shouldn't really have bows.
Remember, it was REALLY hard to train bowmen. You nearly had to dedicate your life to it.

Also, a character could dual-wield |Heavy| weapons to get two attacks a round. We might need to implement something to stop that if it turns unbalanced.

>>15471555
Nope. Someone mentioned it before.

Perhaps something like a bonus to damage when shooting at close range? It could work.

>>15471557
Make them all two-handed?

>>15471578
>pic related

>>15471597
Point taken.

>>15471610
Then again, you need two actions to pick them up again.
So unless you're a Darknut throwing greataxes at people, and pulling out new ones from your hammerspace bag, this shouldn't be a problem.
Still, 2H |Ranged| damage. Wow.
Do we have rules for throwing stuff? Range equal to Physical+3 or something?

>>15468110
Race and Defense Guy here. Someone expressed concern about marking off/checking off health using the hearts and MP Bar. Originally I had suggested, ala a WoD sheet, putting a fill-inable dot underneath each heart and section of MP that are currently 'useable', so that you have an easy method of tracking how many hearts and 5-point-MP sections you have access to. From there, I had suggested (though it seemed to get ignored or forgotten, but whatevs) a 'mark right to left' section, wherein when you take damage put a checkmark in the heart sections that take damage, moving from your rightmost heart to the left (your final heart). Saves a lot of fill in/erase/fill in/erase stuff for the hearts, and still gets the concept of the game 'damage tracking from left to right' in the hearts.

>>15471625
Yeah, that's how it was working last I checked. Note the dots near the hearts in TCN's character sheet.

>>15471638
Cool. I just wasn't sure if the original thought of marking damage was still in use. I haven't really had, or been able to, contribute to the thread much recently. Stupid RL and lack of inspiration.

>>15471697
Then again, I'm not too sure anyone has played this yet.
But yeah, it's a cool idea.
(But won't work with colored hearts/mana. Erasers just, well, erase the color.)

Sorry I haven't been able to add much to the project recently, but I will once I can get to a computer. I can still draw and nitpick from the sidelines, though neither of those actions help much.

We should focus on one thing for the time being, though.

>>15471597
Even so, I wouldn't say just anyone should be able to wield those things one-handed. The Darknuts are pretty big dudes, after all.
I'd say make a low-cost (but probably high-prereq) technique to allow one-handed wielding of certain |heavy| weapons. As >>15471624 pointed out, it doesn't really change your overall rate of damage output, just the way it's spread. Instead of attack/recover/attack/recover it's attack/attack/recover/recover. Could be advantageous in some situations, but not so much in others.

http://i.imgur.com/qmfih.jpg

Trying to get a consistent Darknut design by combining TP and WW styles. I know I should have at least 3 drawings for regular, unarmored and mighty variants. Any opinions on poses, proportions, armor/helm designs and weapons?

>>15473085
So maybe a tech with 4 Physical, 3 |Heavy| as a requirement? That way players can get it at start if they dedicate themselves to it.

And it's more being able to / not being able to use a shield, to be honest. Using Active Defense probably isn't easy if you have no shield, no parry tech and armor that doesn't allow dodging.

(Also I'm both the people you quoted. I don't think I meant to argue against myself.)

>>15473106
To be honest, the design of Darknuts probably varies as much as real armor did.
...Not accounting for the whole thing with Wind Waker's Darknuts being, well, wolves.
What was up with that?

>>15473197
>So maybe a tech with 4 Physical, 3 |Heavy| as a requirement? That way players can get it at start if they dedicate themselves to it.
Sounds fair to me.

>And it's more being able to / not being able to use a shield, to be honest. Using Active Defense probably isn't easy if you have no shield, no parry tech and armor that doesn't allow dodging.
Good point -- you'd be relying pretty heavily on armor soak othewise.

>(Also I'm both the people you quoted. I don't think I meant to argue against myself.)
I don't think you really were arguing against yourself, just making two different points relevant to the topic.

>>15471625
The dots are still there along the Magic Meter so you can draw a line through them to show your maximum. I'll probably make them a little darker in the high res version so they're easier to see. I thought all the dots around the hearts was kind of ugly and figured it was just as easy to draw an X through the first Heart that you don't have access to. So if you have a maximum of 3 hearts you draw an X through the 4th.

>>15473875
Huh. That makes sense. I'm not too sure how well that will work with getting new hearts, but it seems like it'll work.

>>15473970
you erase the X or fill in the heart completely and draw an X through the next heart.

>>15473197
Well it made them more monstrous than "guy in armor." I personally like the jackal design, but I might leave them masked for the unarmored version.

Even though my drawing style is fairly "realistic", I still prefer the Wind Waker's style over Twilight Princess.

>>15470809
That's awesome, dude. Thank you very much.

>>15473351
There is a Parry technique that allows you to use |Melee| for active defense. While armor does make dodging more difficult, it doesn't preclude it. Should probably include a tech for eliminating Acrobatics penalty for armor eventually, but that's not a concern right now.

>>15471557
Not being able to start with ranged weapons makes it pretty much impossible to make a |Ranged| dedicated character concept. Even though Link never started with it, he was a decidedly |Melee|-focused guy. We really don't want to shut people out of a concept.

>>15471008
What Jump Attack does is allow a person who uses |Melee| weapons to get in a single strong attack, which is useful against heavily armored foes. I'm not super comfortable with Jump Attack being used with |Heavy| weapons, so it should probably state explicitly that it's only for |Melee| weapons.

>>15474508
Oh, what I meant was that Jump Attack, when used by a |Melee| user, is weaker than a standard |Heavy| attack. It doesn't really need nerfing.

Also, how does armor work? Are we still having it lower the Damage Increments of weapons, or have we changed it to reduce total damage?

>>15474475
>Ranged for Beginners
True, I suppose. My issue is mostly the amount of puzzles that required the bow in the games, though I suppose that applies to bombs as well. I suppose dungeons in this system need to be developed under homebrewed items instead- I've got an idea for climbing knifes that might work.

A thought: when using |Alchemy|, do you need ingredients?

>>15474671
I assume you need ingredients for Alchemy.

Also, I believe the wiki says armor reduces total damage. If it was increments, that'd be insane. Nobody would ever kill anybody.

>>15474671
>Also, how does armor work? Are we still having it lower the Damage Increments of weapons, or have we changed it to reduce total damage?

As far as I know, it's still reducing damage increments.

>>15474745
It does say damage increment. That's completely insane. We really, really should change that.

>>15474774
I also says that Damage Increments cannot be reduced below 1/4H, so yeah.

>>15474745
>>15474756
>>15474774
Sorry about the multiple posts, should finish reading before commenting.

Anyway, the description of how armor works in the wiki now refers to "armor rating", which I have never heard of and is not detailed in the descriptions of the armors themselves. When did this happen?

>>15474745
>Also, I believe the wiki says armor reduces total damage. If it was increments, that'd be insane. Nobody would ever kill anybody.

Reading comprehension is a valuable skill...
>Shields add to one's dice while defending, and Armour reduces the base damage increment of an enemy's attack. See the Combat section for more details.

>Armour reduces the damage increment of any weapon used against the wearer by a fixed margin, with each point of armour rating reducing the damage increment by 1/4 heart, but (except for the absolute best-of-the-best armours) can never reduce a weapon's damage increment to less than 1/4 heart. For instance, if you were wearing armour with an armour rating of 2, a weapon that normally deals damage increments of 1+1/2 heart would instead deal damage in 1 heart increments, and a weapon with a base damage increment of 1 heart would be reduced to 1/2 heart. However, this same armour would only reduce a 1/2 heart damage increment to 1/4, and would have no effect on weapons with a 1/4 heart damage increment.

Since armor can't reduce damage to zero, even a heavily armored character will still take damage -- it'll just take a bit longer. And heavy armor won't exactly be easy to get in the first place. You don't see too many people running around in heavy full plate in Hyrule, and that's an element I think we should preserve in this system -- armor should stay a relatively minor element, and going armorless should be a viable option even for frontline combatants.
Also, I wouldn't too much stock in the armor stats on the wiki; those pretty much haven't had any attention since they were first proposed (and really not even then), and really need some heavy revision.

>>15474873
Derp, ninja'd...

>>15474794
I think armor rating was a sort of shorthand that was proposed, found its way onto the wiki somehow, but never really caught on. Essentially, the idea was that rather than saying "this armor reduces damage increments by X hearts", you could say "this armor has a rating of X", with each point of armor rating implying 1/4h of damage reduction.
Any references to armor rating on the wiki can probably be converted to 1/4 hearts of damage reduction, unless we decide we actually do want to use the concept.

Having armor affect total damage per attack might be better than doing it per increment. Otherwise, people using Wisdom-based Melee weapons will never do damage against someone with armor
Of 1/4H. With it reducing damage per attack, it models a single strong attack being able to punch through. And it makes it easier to make different levels of armor.

>>15474873
I must have missed these changes being discussed. Here's the problem, though. Armor will, as is, reduce all but heavy weapon damage to 1/4 increment, providing no difference between a small knife and a broadsword and drastically prolonging combat.

Also, I must have missed the part where we decided armor would be rare and limited in access for characters. The system does not support armorless characters well at all, and won't without significant revision to how defense rolling works. An armorless front-line fighter will be cut to ribbons unless they have a fantastic Acrobatics skill, and such a person would only be able to use said skill against a single attack each round IF they spend an action on their turn to defend, thus reducing their damage output just to stay alive against a single opponent. More than one attacker, or an attacker who attacks twice, and Mr. Armorless is probably hosed and will need a lot of healing.

It really is much simpler to just use something like the armor reductions on the wiki now, and only reduce total damage from an attack. It'll require less calculation as damage is being counted up.

>>15475277
Considering that the most obvious Wisdom weapon, the Dagger, has a damage increment of 1/4 Heart...
Having damage change by virtue might not be that great an idea.

I always saw the current system as the amount of hits you got: if you got three successes, you managed to get in three hits with your sword.
Armor makes sense if seen that way, what with, y'know, decreasing the damage each attack does.
Then again, that's just how I imagine it.

>>15475313
How many armored guys do you see in the games? Guards with light armor and minibosses with heavy?

Also, shields and/or parrying. That's what you use to defend with in melee if you can't dodge.

>>15475330
We really need to not limit ourselves to only the video games. Video games are made for a specific purpose, and PnP RPGs are made with a distinctly different purpose.

>shields or parry
You can use the exact argument I used for Acrobatics by substituting the words shields or parrying. You only get active defense against a single attack a round, need a high skill to avoid taking damage reliably, and using active defense sacrifices the effect you have in combat.

>changing damage by virtue not a good idea
Uh... that's just kind of how it works. The issue isn't really that it uses a different virtue, but than there are different classes of weapons. Smaller ones requiring finesse deal little damage, larger ones more damage, etc. Reducing increments makes everything but Heavy weapons deal a 1/4 increment. This is not a good thing.

Unless we want to completely overhaul how combat works, armor should just reduce total damage from an attack.

>>15475484
>damage/virtue
Oh. Yeah. I though you were talking about that "Power increases damage given/taken, Wisdom reduces damage given/taken" thing.
But yeah, most armor would be in the 1/2 Heart category. That reduces swords to 1/4 Heart, does nothing to daggers and reduces most |Heavy| weapons to 1 heart.
I say that we keep it as it is, but add Techniques for ignoring armor.

...Perhaps we need playtesting to determine which method works best. Designing games needs more than theories.

>Consider the following:
>A player with sufficiently high Armor (Iron Knuckle/Biggoron shield, or 2H) is immune to any attack that does less than two hearts of damage while Actively Defending.
>That's four successes with a sword.
>Four. Successes.
>That's a lot.
>Passive Defense reduces by 1Heart, which is two successes with a sword.
>It wouldn't be that hard to make an indestructible character, which is a REALLY BAD THING.

>>15475484
Ok, so yes, heavy armor does overpower most weapons into min dmg, but how many enemies are going to be wearing any armor at all, much less heavy armor? Maybe darknuts and iron knuckles, a few enemies here and there, and then maybe some minibosses/bosses? Everyone else is wearing little or no armor, mostly because they're not humanoid. Those enemies who are armored are supposed to be significantly harder than normal enemies right?
I think as long as the DM goes easy on armored enemies, as it does in the games, then it should be fine having armor reduce increments.
That said, players should have to do a lot to get access to good armor (e.g. big side-quest/dungeon reward) and should not be able to start with heavy armor.

>>15475603
I strongly agree with armor-pierceing techs. Give me a moment to think and I'll propose one.

>>15475603
I'm down for introducing an armor penetration mechanic for certain kinds of weapons. Rapiers, hammers, etc.
Also, the old system I'm pretty sure also couldn't reduce damage to nothing. Don't remember exactly now, though.

But really, the idea that most armors will reduce swords to daggers in effectiveness is bothersome to me. Increment reduction almost eliminates the already sparse difference between weapons.

A little off topic, but are all of the different versions of the character sheet going to be posted on the wiki?

>>15475620
We have to remember that this mechanic goes both ways. Unless an enemy is hefting a giant weapon against a player in any armor, they'll deal 1/4 increments. Characters with big armor will likely also have big Power, making these characters absurdly long-lasting compared to any others.

>>15475677
That's precisely why I said that getting heavy armor should be a big deal - like the next-to-last-dungeon reward, or the end of the insanely long trading game.

>>15475620
The tech should cost a lot and/or have some kind of penalty, if we want people to attack weakspots and such.
No reason to flip the giant enemy crab if you can just hit him with a technique.

Ooh! Ooh! perhaps have seperate techniques for backstabs/range/melee/heavy?
Range could be something like Perfect Aim or Point-Blank or Armor-piercing Arrow.
Melee could have something like Fient, Precision Stab or such (hard to justify with hammers)
Heavy could have a really, really strong hit.
Backstabs should already have that, actually.

>>15475662
You need to upload it to mediawiki, get an account on mediawiki AND 1d4chan, figure out wikicode...
It'll be uploaded as soon as someone who has enouhg time/expertise comes along.

>>15475677
What does Power have to do with survivability? Unless Darknuts can suddenly block by shattering a pillar that's new. Defense is Courage-based.

Looking over the bestiary most monsters seem to have 1/2 hearts damage on average.
Then again, some of them have other effects as well.
I don't know if heavy armor works well against King Dodongo's fire, or if the metal just roasts you instead.

>>15475620
Oh, of course! Helm-splitter!

Helm-Splitter (Active)
Prerequisites: |Melee| or |Heavy| 3, |Acrobatics| 3
XP Cost: 4
Actions: 2
If an enemy is wearing medium or heavy armor, the attacker may make an attack against the armored enemy that ignores their armor bonuses. The attacker must be within 1 square of the enemy. The attacker then makes an acrobatics check to jump over the enemy (I'm not sure if this should be a flat difficulty or opposed by the enemy or what). If successful, the attacker may make a single |melee| of |heavy| attack against the enemy with no armor reduction. Heavy weapon attacks will still need to recover after the attack. The attacker will land on the square opposite of where he started. If the acrobatics check is failed, the attacker falls to the square he started from and is prone.

I think the gamble here is in the acrobatics check. Better acrobatics will have better chance to land that armor-piercing blow.

>>15475751
If...If you're fighting an Iron Knuckle, and wield a Great Axe (that you presumably took from an Iron Knuckle), you just need four successes to kill it in one hit.
It has a defense of 6k5.
With Heavy 3 and 4 Physical 4 Power, that's a 6k5 attack. (and a 6k3 athletics roll)
It's really, really improbable, but that would be so awesome.
Jump over an Iron Knuckle and kill it in a single swing.
Yes. That is good.

Oh, and yeah, it should be a set difficulty. Unless you want it to scale with size or something. Don't want them somersaulting over a giant dragon, flying further than he can jump.

>>15475822
Wow I was just imagining that scene in my head. That, sir, is epic.
Anyone else's thoughts on the acro check? Maybe difficulty 4 on medium sized enemies, and you need 2 successes to jump over?

>>15475874
I'd make the difficulty static and make the number of successes depend on size.
It seems like more of an "are you able to even jump that high" question rather than a "If you can jump over a medium creature than you can jump over a large creature, it is just harder" type thing.

>>15476644
I like yours better than mine. So something like difficulty: 4, and 1 success for a small creature, 2 for medium, 3 for large, and so on. That would limit the size of the thing you can jump over by the number of kept dice you have. It's perfect.

>>15475484
>We really need to not limit ourselves to only the video games. Video games are made for a specific purpose, and PnP RPGs are made with a distinctly different purpose.
While this is a valid argument in and of itself, I don't think it really applies to the issue of armor availability. We're not just talking about what you, as the player in the video games can do, but rather what is present in the game world in the first place. Armor is simply not a very common thing in any of the LoZ game worlds, whether for the player or for NPCs, and since our goal is to capture the atmosphere and feel of the LoZ games in a PnP format, the relative scarcity of armor in comparison to other games where it's standard gear for any front-lines combatant should be part of that. It's one element that makes the LoZ games stick out from other fantasy settings.

>>15477419
I dunno, pretty much every town guard or actual soldier had armor. You just don't see much of those people in the games unless they're cowering because if they were around there wouldn't be as much of a sense of a needed hero.

I get what you mean, though. Armor not being commonplace might be something we want to include, but the PCs are going to be those special few. The PCs are the heroes, the protagonists, the best trained and equipped in the land. If they weren't, they wouldn't be important or necessary. Guards and soldiers and mercenaries could just do everything.

I'm getting off-topic, though. If we want armorless characters to be viable, we need something to support them. I propose the following technique:

>>15477524

Unarmored Combatant (Passive)
Prerequisites: Acrobatics 2, Wisdom 3
XP Cost: 2
You have studied to duck and weave in combat and roll with the hits, moving so that even if you get hit it won't be as hard. When not wearing armor, reduce damage taken by 1/4 heart, just as if you were wearing armor.

>>15475706
Power directly increases starting Life. I'd say that counts for survivabilty quite a bit.

ARMOR: So, what are we going with? Armor reduces by increment, or total damage? Whatever we're going to test first, we need to bring the wiki in line with it. Right now the example armors are not in line with the description of how armor works, so one or the other needs to be made to fit the other before we can playtest it.

I'm just gonna say, I've been using the armor reducing total damage in a few skirmishes I've run, and it worked fine. However, one change I would make, whichever system we go with, would be to include a sort of "natural armor" on appropriate monsters. It would make sense and make combat between enemies more consistent.

>>15475330
>if you got three successes, you managed to get in three hits with your sword.
the number of success represents the degree of success, not literally how many times you succeed. 1 success would be a glancing blow while higher success would be a good solid hit

>>15477567
>Making not wearing armor like wearing armor

Nah, how about because you are so dodgy, you subtract a success off your opponents roll, or perhaps even get a bonus to your defensive roll (Like they have to beat you by another +1)

Okay, so, a friend of mine showed me the wiki and this thread, and I'm going through character creation. I understand most everything except for how to figure out the bloody dice system. The wiki page needs an example of how it's done. The explanation is fine, but an example showing how to, oh, say, hit a deku baba with a longsword, would be nice. Showing how a sample character's relevant skills add up, an example of the dice rolled, which dice are "successes", etc. would help clear up understanding the dice perfectly, I think.

>>15477524
> The PCs are the heroes, the protagonists, the best trained and equipped in the land.
I always hated this mindset, personally. At least going into character creation. I prefer to think of PC's as normal people who rise to the occasion when shit gets hairy, and throughout the course of the campaign they earn the distinction of being heroes or whatever. They're the heroes and the best trained and equipped in the land because they worked for it in game, not because it's what they said in their character descriptions. That's the kind of games I like, anyway. Even Link has to make that journey in every game.
>>15477567
>Power directly increases starting Life.
Is this a change that got made somewhere and never got changed on the wiki? Because I remember starting hearts being Physical + 2 which is what is still says on the wiki.

>>15478086
I'll give it a shot:
"Anon the Hylian is fighting a Bokoblin and wants to attack it with his sword. His rolled dice would be Physical + every odd number in his Sword skill, and his kept dice would be Courage + every even number in his Sword skill. Anon has a 3 Physical, Courage, and Sword, so his roll would be 5k4. He rolls this against the Bokoblin's defense of 3k3. Anon rolls a 6, 5, 4, 3, and 3, dropping one of the threes. The Bokoblin rolled a 4, 3, and 3, keeping all of them. Comparing the numbers: 6 to 4, 5 to 3, and 4 to 3, all successes in Anon's favor, plus a bonus success for having an extra for a total of 4. A sword's damage is 1/2 hearts, so 1/2 times 4 = 2 hearts. Since the Bokoblin has no armor it takes full damage, and with only 2 hearts, the foe is slain!"

Did I do that right?

Here's a spell. Based on the Sun's Song.

Solar Evocation (Courage)
Debuff
(Prerequisite)
Cost: 2MP
Duration: 4 Rounds
Range: 20 Meters
All undead creatures within range are dazed for 4 rounds or until attacked, whichever comes first.

Probably has problems with bosses.... Undead enemies typically have paradoxically large HP, don't they?

>>15479108
That cleared things up perfectly, thank you. Now the only question I have is what happens when the numbers in a roll are the same. For instance, if the bokoblin rolled a 5, 4, and 4 instead. 6 to 5, 5 to 4, and 4 to 4. Does the 4 to 4 cancel out?

>>15479854
The wiki says ties go to the defender.

>>15479869
yeah, but logically they should probably go to the attacker. the defenders rolls set the target numbers for the attacker, so a tie on an opposed roll would be the same as the attacker rolling the the target number which would be a success. unless we're doing it the other way around and the attacker sets the target number for the defender to successfully defend, but that would be backwards from every other system I know of as well as logically backwards because the attacker is the one initiating the action and thus rolling to succeed at that action.

>>15479909
Makes sense

>>15479909
Yes, much like the same way rolling a 16 against an AC of 16 is still a hit. But yeah, now I have a much better understanding of the dice system. Thanks fellas!

>>15479909
Speaking as one who's been here since thread 1, we decided ties go to the defender based on Risk (since it's the most well-known game that uses linear comparison), and for the sake of making combat slightly less lethal. But you're right, compared to how other games work, this is kind of backwards.
We should probably give ties to the attacker until playtesting proves this would be too much.

>>15478054
I agree with this guy -- there's a pretty significant difference between the ideas behind armor and non-armor defense, so having unarmored defense work just like armor doesn't really make sense. Boosting your defense rolls makes much more sense, especially if we're going under the assumption that successes on the attack reflect how direct and hard the hit is -- the fluff of the proposed tech as written could stay exactly the same, and still fit the crunch just fine.
This seems like it might work well as a repeatable tech, like the Lore technique that's on the wiki.

Are we going to need art for every creature?

If so, I could help out with a bit of that.

>>15480279
I don't know if we "need" it per se, but it would certainly be appreciated!

>>15479349
This might be a little too powerful; the current rough draft of the Sun Song on the wiki paralyzes for 2 rounds, which seems pretty reasonable to me, and I don't think daze is sufficiently less debilitating than paralysis to justify the longer duration.

>>15480417

That would be great, and it wouldnt go to waste.

Sorry, my last post was aimed at >>15480279.

>>15480673
Keese as an example.

>>15481035

I like it, any plans on coloring it?

Why dont you try an octorok next.

Ok, so I've got some ideas in my head for some mid-to-high level techs for Shiekah which I have labeled "Sheikah Secret Techniques". Now I've gotten most of the ideas in my head for how they should work, but there's one detail about the fluff that would change the mechanics one way or another. Here's my question:
Are a Sheikah's powers actually magically based (i.e. actually turning invisible or projecting an illusion), or do they only appear to be magic due to high mobility, deception, and misdirection (i.e. throwing a deku nut, ducking and feinting around the opponent to confuse them)? Or is it a combination of the two?

>>15477567
>>15478054
I agree with the anon in this case. It would be best to have a simple +1k1 to defensive rolls when not wearing armor and make it able to be taken multiple times (perhaps with increasing XP cost with each purchase?)

>>15482896
There weren't that many that were shown in game IIRC.
Just Shieks smoke bomb (possibly aided by magic, since Zelda).
And maybe the Shadow Temple, but that's probably more standard magic.

As for items that are associated with Shiekah:
The Lens of Truth
The Mask of Truth
The Stone of Agony
All of them have to do with showing the truth/finding secrets.

>come on, captcha, missingno. isn't a word

Red and blue octoroks. Red ones are the land ones you encounter anywhere, while blue ones hang around in and around water, and have better defense.

>>15483163
It's... beautiful...

>>15483074
It's clear at the very least they are capable of making magical items to aid in their endeavors, but my question is if they use the magic themselves, in combat. It seems really lame to have the royal family's personal body guards only capable of finding secrets with their magic. I think they should be able to become a secret themselves.
I just got done reading the zeldawiki about the Sheikah and I found this section:

"The Sheikah seem to put their magic to even greater use both in technology as well as combat. For example, the Sheikah have been notable for their creation of such powerful magical artifacts as the Mask of Truth, the Lens of Truth and their race's Gossip Stones, as well as their ability to use magic to improve their stealth skills, such as their ability to vanish in a bright flash of light without a trace, giving them an edge in dangerous situations."

Now that I think about it, it might be better to have the secret techniques be "spells" and treated like an item instead of a tech. I had already thought of having one of the prerequisites be "Must be taught by a Sheikah who knows the technique". So, it could be that someone learns the secret tech from a scroll (an item instead of a tech).

I realize that I answered a lot of my own questions, but putting it here in the board made it clear in my head. Of course, I am open to hear more opinions on the subject.

>>15483163
Awesome.
Maybe try some more standard monsters next? Like what, one of those spinning plant thingies or the jumping spiders?
I don't remember the names though. Sorry.

>>15483163
actually I don't like that hump on the red one, so I fixed it.

>>15483258
>I realize that I answered a lot of my own questions, but putting it here in the board made it clear in my head.
Hey, that's what these threads are here for -- they're a place for everyone to bounce ideas off each other and such.

Personally, I think Sheikah should be able to do their thing through either magical or mundane means, depending on preference. The more magically inclined would of course apply their magic toward stealth and whatnot, but there could also be those who use very little magic, if any, relying primarily on mundane methods.

>>15483258
While invisible bodyguards are cool, I'd prefer ones that can see invisible stuff and tell if someone is telling the truth.
They're bodyguards, remember. Not assassins. Or at least I don't think so.

But yeah, a lot of ninja moves. Take some inspiration from real shinobi as well, and not just the stereotype.

>>15483679
A very good point. My current secret techs are more battle oriented, but there should be a "Zone of Truth" type ability as well. I'll think about that.

Alright here we go:

Sheikah Secret Techniques - all of these techniques must be learned from a Sheikah who knows the technique or from a scroll written by such a Sheikah. Each technique is a combination of magic and subtle manipulation to achieve the desired outcome. (I believe it should be very difficult for a non-Sheikah to be able to obtain these techniques. Please note that even though I called them 'Techniques', I have treated these like spells, so they have no XP cost.)

Secret Technique: Invisible Throw (Wisdom)
Actions: 1
Prerequisites: |Magic| 3, |Ranged| 2, Wisdom 3
MP: 4
Range: Same as thrown weapon
Duration: Instant
When a Sheikah throws a non-explosive ranged weapon, he may make the thrown weapon become invisible until it reaches the target. The target may not use passive defense against this technique. The target must be aware of the attack to use active defense against it. If the Sheikah is hidden, the attack does not reveal his position.

>>15484113
Secret Technique: Counter (Wisdom or Courage?)
Actions: 2
Prerequisites: Previous knowledge of 1 Secret Technique, |Magic| 3, |Melee| 3, |Stealth| 3, Wisdom 3 (Or Courage?)
MP: 6
Range: 1 square
Duration: Until the beginning of the next round or until a counter-attack is made
The Sheikah makes an image of himself where he is standing and turns invisible (hidden and able to sneak attack) for the duration of the technique. If the image is attacked during the duration of the counter, the image dissipates (no damage is taken, since it’s just an illusion) and the Sheikah may immediately appear at any square surrounding the attacker and make an attack against him at +2k0. The Sheikah may not do anything except prepare to counter during this technique.
Secret Technique: Armor Pierce (Wisdom)
Actions: 1
Prerequisites: |Magic| 1, |Melee| 3, |Perception| 3, Wisdom 3
MP: 4
Range: 1 square
Duration: Instant
If a target is wearing medium or heavy armor, the Sheikah may make an attack against him that avoids armor bonuses of the target. The Sheikah makes a |Perception| check (difficulty 4) to find weak points to attack. The Sheikah may then make a |Melee| attack to avoid 1/2H of armor for every success of perception.

>>15484122
Secret Technique: Perceive Lies (Wisdom)
Prerequisites: |Magic| 2, |Perception| 3, Wisdom 3
MP: 4
Range: Within sight or hearing, whichever is applicable.
Duration: Sustained – 4MP per minute of magical perception
When this technique is used, a Sheikah is able to magically and intuitively find the lies of others, whether they be lies of falsehood or lies of omission. The Sheikah must be able to understand the language of the subject being monitored.

Ultimate Technique: ??? (Haven’t gotten to this one yet. I’m thinking about a limited instant-death technique).
Prerequisites: Previous knowledge of 3 Secret Techniques

I’m thinking that perception of illusions shouldn’t be a secret technique (spell), but just a racial technique purchasable by anyone who meets the prereqs.

>>15484113
So. It's an instant hit for max damage.
Perhaps change it so that they can use Passive Defense if they are aware of it.
That makes it more of a ranged-while-hidden thing.

Also, what rules do we have for throwing weapons? You should be able to throw stuff like a Darknuts sword, since that's in the games, but I don't know how to balance that with the current infinite inventory.

>>15484122
So with Counter, why do you mention turning hidden if you can't do anything other than preparing Counter?
Could you give an example of it's use?

Armor Pierce is awesome.

>>15484137
Percieve lies is good but I'm not too sure on Ultimate Technique.

A suggestion: Secret Techniques can be learned by anyone who finds a scroll, but Shiekah don't like teaching outsiders. (Zelda being an obvious exception as part of the royal family.)
Then again, Shiekah tend to be near extinction in the games. But if the Impa in Adventure of Link is the same one as Impa in Ocarina of Time, they might be able to live a very, very long time.

>>15484448
On invisible throw, I think your right. Passive defense is a reaction to an attack, so if they are aware of the attack, they should be able to at least try to dodge. I'll say that the opponent gets -2k2 to the defense roll against the attack unless they use active defense, in which case its -1k1. However if they're not aware, they're only protection is their armor bonus.

On counter, I said they are hidden really just because it's required for sneak attack. I say that they can't do anything except counter to prevent them from abusing the invisibility (that should be a spell by itself). I want using the counter to be a gamble: if the enemy doesn't strike, you just wasted 6MP and a whole turn. Should the enemy get a chance to see through the illusion and then use perception to find the hidden Sheikah? Regardless, here's an example of it's use as it is now:
>Impa the Tall spends a whole round to prepare a counter (making an illusion and standing nearby, invisible). A darknut tries to attack Impa, but instead strikes through the illusion. Impa appears behind the darknut and makes an attack while the darknut's defenses are down (+2k0). Impa has a |Melee| roll of 5k4 (+2k0) with a dagger (1/4H w/ 1k0), and the darknut has a passive defense of 4k4 with Darknut Full Plate (3/4H). Impa rolls 6,4,4,4,3,2,1,1. Darknut rolls 6,4,3,1. 6->6 tie, 4->4 tie, 4->3 Impa, 4->1 Impa. Impa scores 1/2H damage X2 for being a sneak attack for a total of 1H.
It seems that daggers aren't meant for armored foes :P
continued in next post

>>15484448
I think you're right about the Ultimate Tech, it should be something very useful, but something not so cliched as a death technique.

I also agree with your idea about the scrolls and teaching. Maybe only have scrolls around if the Sheikah are nigh (or completely) extinct?

>>15485002
Or make it so that , since the Shiekah probably have a huge, ancient library of scrolls, you need to find scrolls from the dead body of some unfortunate Shiekah adventurer.
Yet another thing you can give players in dungeons!
I like these free quasi-techniques. As a GM this gives me the ability to choose what the players can do, and as a player it lets the entire party know how to do something awesome! (even if they aren't physically/mentally capable of it.)

The ultimate Technique would be something adhering to the very core of Shiekah philosophy, whatever that may be. See, But Don't Be Seen? Protect Innocents?
I can't help but see Shiekah as some mixture between Ninja and the Assassins from AC, though, so I'm not that reliable for information related to Shiekah.

All this technique creation and such is way over mein head, so I guess I've been demoted to drawfag. Speaking of, yo TMM, what exactly did you want for your Twili? I remember there being some physical details in your request but I can't remember exactly what.

>>15471597
Increeedibly delayed, but I had pictured the Darknut's one-hander as a Power-based Melee weapon, not a Heavy... but whatever.

If Armor's role is being reduced in importance, does it still warrant a skill? What Techniques would have Armor prerequisites? Only ones I can picture are things that reduce penalties to physical finnesse, and some sort of "Armored Momentum", that ADDS armor's mass to the movement for a charge instead of subtracting.

>>15487399
Armor as a skill got cut aaaaages ago. Pretty much the only reason it was there as a skill in the first place was because of the idea that was being thrown around early on of having skill prereqs for items, which was abandoned pretty quickly. Without that, it doesn't make much sense for there to be an |armor| skill.

>>15487443
This is what I get for having my internet die for more than a week; I'm going to go reread the wiki and see what I missed.

Bored drawfag here: what sort of things still need illustrations? I'd imagine a lot of people already have the various races covered, and I saw one fellow in here doing some monsters.

>>15487786
I don't think we have many drawings of magic. Perhaps a wizard (race of your choice) using the fire rod on a Redead?

>>15487786

Well, i think that the next step would be drawing some character archetypes doing things like casting a spell, or attacking a monster. Kind of what CZ did with his stealth check pic.
Maybe you could draw a goron performing his rolling attack, you could even go further and add an axe in one of his sides so it looks like the wheels in the roman chariots races (Wheels with blades protuding at the sides).

>>15488032

You could also draw goron performing a suplex to a wolfos if you dont feel like drawing a goron rolling attacking.

>>15488003
>>15488032

Funny thing, before either of you posted I had already started on a female Deku Scrub using Fire Rod.

Requesting a Terminan mask maker again.

>>15480187
Speaking as the guy you were replying to here >>15479909, someone who has also been here since thread one, and the person (or at least one of the people) who originally suggested that ties go to the defender, I agree with your last statement. Way back when I suggested ties go to the defender, what I posted >>15479909 had not yet occurred to me

Hope this isn't getting too bogged down. In any case, keep up the good work. I want to playtest this as soon as I can.

>>15488896

The hell, the color's all fucked up.

The greens on her "hair" and the rose aren't supposed to be that bright, somewhat less so for her cap.

Doesn't look that way in photoshop, even on the .jpg file.

>>15488921

Oh durr. Forgot about CYMK. Fixed version here, deleting old one.

>>15487399
>Speaking of, yo TMM, what exactly did you want for your Twili? I remember there being some physical details in your request but I can't remember exactly what.

I assume it's a given, but she should be a tall one like Midna and Zant. Warrior-mage style attire with padded leather armor, mostly black I guess. Haircut like the pic and the usual orange color. Either clashing swords with a Darknut or standing with a sword in her right hand and teal colored magic fire in the other.

>>15488931
Forgot to say in my last post, nice work on the pic.

Morning Bump

>>15488931

Congrats, it really came up very nice and very detailed too, hopu you can contribute to the proyect more