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  • File : 1304724637.jpg-(50 KB, 376x530, templar armor.jpg)
    50 KB Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)19:30 No.14838352  
    Hail, /tg/!

    Summer break is finally upon me and the dread-lord finals hath been slain, which means one thing: IT'S FORGIN TIME! I So, my fine-bearded chums, what should I craft for my first project? I'm wanting to make at least one fine-looking weapon and a piece of armor (helmet), if not most of a complete suit, this summer. At the moment, I'm considering making rail-road spike knives; they tend to sell for a lot more than the raw materials and work put into them is worth.

    Aside from that, I'm sort of lost. I know that I can just get sheet metal for plate armor. Chain-mail and padded cloth for the lower layer. Swords? Can I use sheet metal that's been heated and folded to make them? Or is there a better way?

    Anyway, general Armor/Weapon/Smithing thread?
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)19:32 No.14838367
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    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)19:34 No.14838383
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    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)19:35 No.14838396
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    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)19:36 No.14838404
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    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)19:38 No.14838419
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    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)19:39 No.14838429
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    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)19:40 No.14838432
    don't forget the heat treatments!
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)19:52 No.14838513
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    Heat and cool, heat and cool, heat and cool, right? From what I'm gathering, I should be using olive/vegetable oil to douse it in? Is that right?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)20:08 No.14838630
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    >>14838352 Can I use sheet metal that's been heated and folded to make them?
    If you want a functional sword I doubt that's a good way to go, unless you happen to be really fucking superb at forge welding.

    >>Or is there a better way?
    Bar stock, forge out the blank and finish by grinding, or just grind all the way.

    For armour, get a copy of "Techniques of Medieval Armor Reproduction" and then head over to http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/ for inspiration and help.

    That depends on what steel you're using. Assuming a simple standard high carbon steel you first normalise the blade (removing residual stress, lessening the risk of it warping or shattering when you quench it) To do this heat it, IIRC to perhaps 600-700 C, and then let it cool slowly.

    Second step is hardening. First heat to about 750C, let it sit there for a short period of time (this changes the crystalline lattice in the steel to one called austenite, only asutenite can be hardened the way we want to). Then quench it, vegetable oil probably works ok (this turns the austenite into martensite, the hardened form of steel).

    As-quenched the sword will most likely be hideously brittle. Drop it and it may shatter like glass. To fix this you anneal the sword, which trades a little bit of hardness for a lot of toughness. To anneal the sword, keep it at a few hundred C for a few minutes or so.

    Most steels sued for swords will have similar demands on the heat treat, but more highly alloyed variants can be drastically different.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)20:14 No.14838685
    quench and temper, motherfucker.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)20:18 No.14838725
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    Ah, yes, sorry. Complete fucking brainfart there. Annealing is similar to normalisation, it strips any hardening, residual stress, and all such from the material, and leaves it as soft as it'll get.

    What I described, and what you should do post-quench, is tempering. So generally the right advice there, but entirely wrong on the name for it.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)20:19 No.14838741
    How the fuck does one get into this sort of thing?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)20:26 No.14838795
    Obviously, you need a degree in MatSci.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)20:31 No.14838834
    Nah, just read this one and you'll know all you'll ever need about heat treating steel: http://www.mediafire.com/?idihdcwz2td

    And there's usually fact sheets and simple step-by-step instructions available for most steel types, regarding target temperatures, soaks times, etc.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)20:34 No.14838863
    Well where would you go to actually do this, unless you actually have a forge in your house

    (note: that would be cool but considering my finances and the world economy I'm more likely to have badgers eat my face than ever own an actual house)
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)20:39 No.14838915
    In an apartment?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)20:56 No.14839065
    what sort of equipment do you have for manufacturing, is the first question.

    time-wise, I would'nt like to be on you making more than a few peices. but spaulders and the likes are'nt impossible. with limited kit.

    Sword-making as you ask? not a hope.
    I'll explain more on that later.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:05 No.14839142
    rough list of what you'll need for *basic* armouring in plate:

    Eye protection. Safety Glasses.
    Hand Protection. from heat, or from sharp edges. I use thin leather, some use fabric or welder's gloves.

    Metal. well. duh. 18ga and 16ga mild steel are the bog-standard starting materials. if you have access to heat-working, you may want to think about 20ga 1050 / EN9 carbon steel sheet. look in local listings for metal stockists. remember, steel sheet will slice you fingers, land on toes and take 'em off, rip your car seats like a wildcat on steroids, and all manner of headaches to get it to your working location.

    Stump. get a tree stump. at least 6 inch diameter, and gouge chisel or chainsaw and cut it into a bowl-shaped depression.

    Hammers. ballpein, several from 1/2lb up to 4lb, maybe even a 6lb in some cases.

    Hammers, Ballpein. same as before, with the faces polished to a mirror finish for planishing.

    Rivets. you need solid rivets, not pop rivets. I can reccommend a supplier if you're in the UK. elsewhere, no idea.

    Steel cutting. you'll need at minimum a good pair of aviation sheet cutters. Stanley make good models. anything more than 18ga mild is tough, 16ga is very hard to cut. for that, you'll need a big lever shear. the best is a Beverley B-2. if you've got a bev, you're laughing. if not, you'll wish you did.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:10 No.14839182
    We want to hear moar of your expertise!
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:17 No.14839235
    sir I request your UK supplier (not the person you were talking to but why doesn't anywhere stock decent rivets anymore?)

    and I've used pop-rivets for metal-working in the past, and they look truly awful on everything they're used in, so why are they everywhere and nice solid rivets are so hard to come-by?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:18 No.14839248

    Leather. you'll need good quality vegetan leather for strapping and similar in armour. Again, I can reccommend a british supplier. US, you might get it in a tandy, I gather.

    Damn good to have. easy for dishing shapes into, quieter too. a leather sandbag is better still.

    Heat source. Propane gas mapp torch, Oxy-acetaline, pet dragon, small forge. anything to heat up metal. something to do spots is useful. that's not so much used to make metal red-hot and pound it into shape (though raising is done like that) but to heat and than cool gradually, to anneal and soften the metal as it work-hardens. particularly of use with carbon steel, instead of mild, where workhardening is a real hassle.

    Fire extinguisher.
    because you will set something on fire. oh yes.

    Bench Grinder. with replaceable wheels.
    this will be modified with flap sanding disks for helping with polishing, and with mops with polishing compound. that, and planishing will help turning your kit from a bagfull of marbles to gleaming steel.

    First Aid Kit.
    Grinders feed on human flesh. Remember this. Remember it well. you do not want to be in the way when a polisher grabs a peice of thin-edged steel and flings it toward your face, or testicles. Always stand to the side of the grinder. Always wear eye protection.
    Hand protection should be soft enough to easily tear away. you do not want your glove getting snagged in a 7000rpm bench grinder and pulling you into it.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:19 No.14839260
    I now request your UK suppliers for everything that you have posted and will post in future.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:27 No.14839319
    Drills. a centre-punch will be useful to ensure proper placed holes. type of drill is down to choice. I prefer a hand-cranked drill. some like a pillar press drill with 2hp behind it. drill slow, and clamp down your work. drills can snatch and turn your peice of steel into a spinning guillotine.

    Drill bits. and replacements.

    Alternatively, a Roper-Whitney no.5 punch will save you hours of hassle, if you can afford one.

    Files. flat, bastard, 1st and 2nd cut. Half-round, tri-square, and round. Never underestimate the value of a good file.

    More Files.

    Some more files. bigger ones. and some smaller ones.
    I just did a count. I have 35 files sitting on the workbench here as I type. They're just the smaller ones. there's another 20 or so in the main workshop.

    As a note, cheap files are a false investment. they lose their edge, and become blunt rapidly. I strongly reccomment F.L Grobet, swiss gunsmith's files, but will also use Bahco, from Sweden, of Nicholson in the US.

    other things you'll need. marker pen. several of them. the bastards always run off when you need it.

    A metal waste bin for metal offcuts. they will make you bleed like a stuck pig.

    A vice.
    armourers have many vices. some clamp metal. others clamp nipples. Do not ask an armourer about his little vices.

    An Anvil.
    yes, an anvil is that far down the list of things you'll need. one is useful, but a nice flat surface is'nt nearly as heavily used as you'd expect. what is used much more are stakes - balls and tubes clamped in a vice, or mounted in a hole in the dishing stump.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:34 No.14839370
    holy shit, apprentice french blacksmith here, man, you are awesome (also cool, have two third of the list already in my garage)

    Also, how do i archive thread in suptg ?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:34 No.14839373
    UK suppliers:

    Leather: Le Prevo Leather, Newcastle:

    several members of their staff are reenactors. they will know what you mean, and what you need better than you. leatherworking is a black art in itself... and the names they use are weird. but the staff know tht you want a vegetan single butt, not a columbo kip. and so on.

    Sapphire Products, Ltd, Birmingham.
    their website is a trainwreck. if you can navigate it, you're doing better than I ever did.
    however, they supply small batches. as they've said to me on the phone "we supply in batches up down to 1. we could do batches of 0, but the software does'nt like it when we do that"

    in particular you will want these:
    and of those, the main ones you'll need are "round" and "mushroom" rivets. many armourers make the mistake of buying rounds - they're not historically accurate. mushroom rivets are actually closer to the shape of most medieval armour rivet heads.

    you may also find you need to make blanking holes for assembly holes etc. I reccomment 1/8th mild steel rod from this company:

    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:38 No.14839393
    Annnnnnnnd it's time for some delicious blacksmith porn !
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:42 No.14839415
    last few bits you'll need.

    screws and bolts.
    small - 3.0mm shank diameter, 15mm long cheesehead screws are used for assembling armour plates for test-fitting before rivets are used. you can unscrew a nut, a rivet you need to grind and drill out. check twice, rivet once.

    Sandpaper. Black emery, or the red aluminium oxide paper. lots of it, in everything from P60, to P1200 grades. Sanding blocks are very useful too. a power drill with sanding flap wheels, sanding sponges, and similar materials will be useful for difficult-to reach areas.

    Safety note, if you have long hair, and use a drill, always tie hair back. if you can wear a bandana, do so. you do not want a power drill with a wire brush attachment catching in a lock of hair that falls out of your hairband, wrapping round the wire brush, and pulling the drill at speed into your face and head. before ripping a chunk of hair away.

    Trust me on this. this is an experience I do not want to repeat a second time.

    Say it again, children. "Power tools feed on human flesh".
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:47 No.14839459
    and that's all you need for the equipment.

    I'll now take a break as my hands hurt.

    take breaks regularly. I'm only an amateur armourer, I work professionally making swords and similar weapons.
    the reason I'm an amateur armourer is that I already have RSI damage in my hands from my old job. Hammering steel plate is *very* damaging on your body, and will cause RSI injury, tendonitis, shoulder damage, tennis elbow, and a whole load of other harm. its better to rest and take breaks, than push yourself to destruction.

    I'll be back in a bit to make notes on techniques etc, once my hands are aching a little less.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)21:49 No.14839473
    that porno music...
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)22:02 No.14839585
    Shit, I just requested the archive, didn't read all of your post. Oh well, what's been posted thus far has been amazing and I applaud and thank you for it!

    For those interested, the thread has been archived at the following address:

    Hopefully they decide it's worth keeping in the archives :)
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)22:07 No.14839617
    mm.perfect music for the work.

    now. techniques.
    your first skill is to learn to read: this takes three forms.

    to read the human body and anatomy - you must understand how the metal moves over the body, to make it work.

    second, you need to read the internet. specifically the Armour Archives, who will teach you more than I ever could, and guide your first steps.

    Thirdly, you want to read TOMAR, or Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction, by one Brian Price.
    I strongly reccommend searching for a copy of this book and stealing it. Brian Price, owner of "chivalry bookshelf" was recently revealed to be a theiving scumbag bastard cuntrag, who has failed to pay the authors of the books he prints *any* royalties for up to 6 years, who has stolen other artist's castings and reproduced them, and a whole host of similar underhand business practices. Payback's a bitch, but karma's a great friend, so its only appropriate that Price gets a taste of his own medicine.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)22:11 No.14839628
    the archive will update an active thread every 2 hours or so.

    not an armorer, but mech engineer here if anyone has any other questions about metals. also, my crazy uncle does leather armor and other stuff for ren faires, if there's any interest in that.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/11(Fri)23:01 No.14839733
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    given the posting went down, I'll not be adding much more tonight, as its 4am, and I need a shower from an evening spent in the workshop sawing boxwood....

    but I shall be around tomorrow, 'cos I have nothing better to do while making things than refresh /tg/, since I'll not be off doing longsword training this week.

    so I'll explain a little bit of what's needed for techniques and mindset, I'll probably post some examples of simple-ish stuff you can do, and I'll also explain a little of the black art of swordsmithing and cutler's work. not all though. dont want to give away all my work secrets.

    Ask a load of questions to bump the thread, and I'll answer 'em in the morning.
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/06/11(Fri)23:51 No.14840085
    Thanks! I'm curious, what are some of the topics that smiths keep secrets about? Were you taught them by a master, or did you find them yourself?

    Now, for some questions, hopefully non of them are too stupid :P

    1) Aside from neglecting safety, what's the largest mistake beginners make when crafting?
    2) For most of us posting, since this is a hobby that can yield profit, do you have any guidelines for selling your work? What kind of scale do you use to grade your work when determining its value?
    3)I've gathered that a lot of people use old car springs and just car parts, in general to use as raw material. Is this just a simple way for people to get 'fun' metal for costume-quality arms/armor, or is their quality of the metal good enough to make battle-ready product?
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/07/11(Sat)00:38 No.14840525
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    >Thirdly, you want to read TOMAR, or Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction, by one Brian Price.
    I strongly reccommend searching for a copy of this book and stealing it. Brian Price, owner of "chivalry bookshelf" was recently revealed to be a theiving scumbag bastard cuntrag, who has failed to pay the authors of the books he prints *any* royalties for up to 6 years, who has stolen other artist's castings and reproduced them, and a whole host of similar underhand business practices. Payback's a bitch, but karma's a great friend, so its only appropriate that Price gets a taste of his own medicine.

    Well, in that case....would you folks prefer a mediafire or scribd of his book?
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/07/11(Sat)00:57 No.14840679
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    Fuggit, torrent link here:

    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)01:47 No.14841096

    You're not also known as Metal Steve in some parts, are you?
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/07/11(Sat)02:26 No.14841472
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/07/11(Sat)06:08 No.14842901
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    One bump to keep it alive for the kind anon answering questions and for the random night-owls on /tg/ who may be interested. G'night, folks!
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)09:54 No.14843883
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    >1) Aside from neglecting safety, what's the largest mistake beginners make when crafting?

    you cant raise a helmet in 3 passes. trying means using far too much force, heavy hitting, and deforming the metal. it instead ends up with what's called the "bag full of marbles" effect - lumpy, uneven, really scrappy.
    Take your time, take lots of passes to slowly build the shape.

    >2) For most of us posting, since this is a hobby that can yield profit, do you have any guidelines for selling your work? What kind of scale do you use to grade your work when determining its value?

    It'll never be very profitable. if you work by hours, for what most will pay, you're better off in a burger joint flipping meat.
    Charge what is acceptable to you, for the effort you put in.
    also, for doing it to a good quality, it costs a huge amount in equipment. Remember, that list was the basics...

    >3)I've gathered that a lot of people use old car springs and just car parts, in general to use as raw material. Is this just a simple way for people to get 'fun' metal for costume-quality arms/armor, or is their quality of the metal good enough to make battle-ready product?

    Technically, a leaf spring is good enough material. there's little difference in the actual alloy, or the heat-treat used.
    in reality, a leaf spring's been curved to a shape, so re-tempering it will often make it twist back into its old shape. it also tends to result in SLOs that are overweight and badly balanced, just as the leaf springs tend to be over-thick, and people dont understand the details of swordmaking.... more on that in a bit.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)10:08 No.14843946
    I love this thread.

    I'd like to get into this stuff. I need my own place and my own tools first though.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)10:10 No.14843952
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    the secrets most dont talk about...

    the first one is simple. Historical study. you have to get your grubby mitts on originals in museums. Study them up close, take measurements of the blade dimensions - particularly the thicknesses and cross-sections.
    You cant make real swords, without having seen the real thing. that's like a virgin giving sex tips...

    In parralell to that, you need to be able to learn how they were used. you cant make a rapier feel right, if you've only ever fought with rattan sticks. if you're making for a specific artform, you need to know how it'll be held, the way its moved. Italian longsword needs a longer hilt than a german one, for example, and prefers the use of a round pommel, while german ones are often scent-stopper pommels. (usually. exceptions in both cases, of course)

    Distal taper. the thickness of the blade. this is the big one. its easy to get a photo of a profile of a sword. but you need to bet the thickness right, to control where the metal is, how stiff the blade is, what its performance in the cut is, if its good for thrusting, etc.
    a lot of people are surprised to discover how thick the strong (hilt end) of a sword can be. I've seen a few that are easily 8mm thick. they're also surprised by how thin the weak is. I've seen cutters that are clearly designed for unarmoured targets which are only about 1.8mm thick 60-70mm from the tip. I've seen thrusting swords which are 3.5mm at the same place, though, which handle totally different.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)10:13 No.14843969
    It's good stuff. I started out with an old anvil I found in a scrap yard and a couple books on blacksmithing. I never turned back.

    These days I got a pretty good setup and a lot of free time and money to spend on it, I've never regretted it.

    ....Except for the one time I burnt all the hair from my head playing with my furnace just before senior prom. I would probably take that month back. But, you live and you learn.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)10:42 No.14844158
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    More secrets that arent really secrets.

    Heat treatment is the most important element of all. quite simply, the best steel alloy on the planet badly heat-treated is worse than a plain simple 1050 carbon steel, well-treated. Getting the right balance of heat-treatment for hardness, and temper for springiness is the work of a lifetime.

    for a cutting blade, you want a hard edge. for a reenactment one, you want a little more give, as they tend to take a lot more impact punishment over their lives, and its better to allow some of that to be absorbed, deforming the edge and workhardening it. of course, too soft, and you get something like a hanwei which gets chewed up in a year.
    for reenactment, you also want to modify the designs to be slightly broader tangs, to take some of the strain. a real sword, energy is dispersed over a longer period, as it cuts through. a reenactment sword the energy is dispersed rapidly with a harder stop, as it does'nt cut - so the wider tank helps prvent breakage.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)11:31 No.14844518
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    hey guys, i made a war hammer!
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)11:42 No.14844610
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    crude, but it does the job perfectly.
    if you want it to look great, I'd reccommend sanding and polishing the metal up, and usinga plane on the haft to make it octagonal cross section. then coat the wood in linseed oil, and it'll look lovely.

    do that, and it'll look spot on.

    I meanwhile, want to know what kind of batshit insane maniac makes a warhammer like this pic. (sadly, dead for 450-odd years, so I cant say "why?" to them)
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)11:50 No.14844687
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    the same that gets a skull and puts a blade in it, then yellow stuff in the eye sockets, now look at my picture and prepare to be disappoint.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)12:04 No.14844788
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    aye. not so ideal there. looking at it.

    though you could use an angle grinder, take off the straps on it, then make a pair of langets that go over it, make a new haft that's the right sort, and just use the head for the face and spike.

    I've seen cruder ones in museums.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)12:07 No.14844800
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    I wish I had something to contribute to this thread, for it is awesome. Alas, I live in third floor apartment, and cannot forge.

    I do know more than a bit about sewing and some period dress (mostly prior to the 14th century clothing revolution, but not entirely), so if people have questions about padded armour or arming doublets, I can answer.

    And cheers for the rain chappe outline from before, chaps.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)12:21 No.14844887
    I may make another one as you suggest but using my delicious stolen fencing once i get a forge that can get hot enough (it appears 6 by 12 by 2.5 inches is too small) and an anvil
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)13:17 No.14845238
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    technically, you should'nt need any more heat-working on that to get it right.

    erm, rough CGI for the model to show what I'm meaning:

    Take what you have, (1), and grind off the langet extensions, and then do some polishing work to smooth off the faces. Triangular files are great for incising lines on the sides to give some defination to the shapes, btw.
    once you've cleaned it up, drill a hole through side to side (2)
    Then take a strip of mild steel about 20mm wide, maybe 1.2mm thick, and drill holes through it, and bend it to go over in a upside-down square U shape. (3)

    Then take a square haft (ash is good), and plane the corners to octagons (4)

    use a chisel to make the metal strips flush with the wood. then take a bolt and grind the head into a square instead of a hex shape. tapering to a pyramid is good, and tht goes through the langets on the head (5)

    Then assemble the head into place, put the bolt into position, and put nails through the holes into the langets, into the wood (pre-drill 'em) and bingo - no.6, you've got a perfect, accurate war-hammer out of your work, no more forging or heat-work needed.

    easily done.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)13:19 No.14845257
    hope this is usefull


    Making a break Drum Forge

    Making Charcoal

    Basic Metallurgy

    The Quick and Dirty on Anvils

    Beeswax Coating for Metalsmiths

    Using the Blacksmith's Third Hand For Riveting
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)13:26 No.14845313
    Where can you get railroad steel from?
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)13:30 No.14845339

    of for anyone into smithing, I can strongly reccommend the following companies for bits.

    Vaughan's (Hope Works)

    Very good planishing hammers, Some very good small stake anvil peices, and excellent forge equipment.

    The Iron Dwarf:

    some fantastic mini-anvils, stakeplates, armouring stakes - particularly ball stakes, and anticlastic section stakes.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)14:22 No.14845745
    a railway
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)16:21 No.14846740
    i love this thread and want to bump it
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/07/11(Sat)17:30 No.14847283
         File1304803819.jpg-(87 KB, 700x700, steampunk inspector.jpg)
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    Sweet! Some basic information and some links would be appreciated.
    You can buy spikes online and I believe you can contact your local Railroad Commission, or whatever it's called, to get their junk parts.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)18:49 No.14848054
    and since I'm back in from the workshop, and making the boxwood hilts for 16th C dudgeon daggers (goddamnit, that wood is beautiful... and tougher than hell itself), anything else I can contribute?

    what sort/date armour was OP wanting, for instance?
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)19:41 No.14848430
    can you tell me of mail, and scale (i know it is incorrect but, dat rhyme). I've often wondered one gets around the vulnerability to upward thrusts of it?
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)20:13 No.14848692
         File1304813619.jpg-(166 KB, 800x600, 4336.jpg)
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    I'm not him, but...

    First of all, the typical fantasy scale armour is, well, fantasy. First for definitions, in antique armour studies, scale is usually meant as armour made form a number of plates attached to the outside of a backing material (fabric or leather). Put the scales on the inside and it's (usually) brigandine. Attach the scales to each other directly instead of to a backing and you get lamellar.

    Proper scale armour is rather on the rare side, so I don't really know how things are "usually" done there. For the other variants though, if you're really worried about thrusts from one direction (above or below), simply overlap the scales accordingly. However, regardless of which way they overlap, getting a thrust in between them might not be all that easy, requiring a thrusts that is very near parallel to the body to slide in. This won't just be hard as hell to pull off, it will also have a very hard time getting deep enough into the target to cause any major damage (especially once the arming coat underneath is taken into account), odds are that it'll also take some doing to penetrate in between the scales, as the scales themselves may be stuck together pretty well, there may be tough leather or silk straps that must be cut, etc.
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/07/11(Sat)21:07 No.14849243
    Love bump for other fa/tg/uys.

    Also, would bluing be practical or needed for armor/swords, or is that just taking things too damned far?
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)21:36 No.14849537
         File1304818592.jpg-(97 KB, 556x480, 1290048804416.jpg)
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    bluing is very practical.

    usual method is heat-bluing. heat up witha torch, paint on linseed oil. add more layers if you want it blacked.

    pic related. note how many of the harnesses of armour in the pic are silver-white.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)21:38 No.14849552
         File1304818716.jpg-(51 KB, 500x375, 1256655167950.jpg)
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    other corrosion protection: painting - inside surfaces were commonly painted. firescale can be left on, and painted over, for a very hard, rustproof, but matte finish, as per this black sallet..
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)21:40 No.14849571
         File1304818839.jpg-(68 KB, 600x550, 1302654258193.jpg)
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    very little has survived intact, but painted surfaces were quite often covered with fabrics - particularly velvet, as per this 15th C italian celata.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)21:41 No.14849579
         File1304818867.jpg-(153 KB, 428x567, paintedbreast ca1480-1500.jpg)
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    For sword blades I wouldn't bother, but for both hilt furniture and armour it can be good looking, practical, and useful (the last bit especially for armour, keeping hilt furniture from rusting isn't so hard). Historically it seems that a number of hot and cold bluing/blacking/browning techniques have been used, in addition to simply painting it. Unfortunately they wanted their old armour bright and shiny in the 19th century, meaning there's very little left of such original finishes.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)21:46 No.14849650
    Hey, smith guys if you were going into a potentialy lethal fight what armor would you prefer?
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)21:53 No.14849716
         File1304819623.jpg-(738 KB, 1500x2132, BSB_Cod_Icon-393-2_P377.jpg)
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    bluing of sword hilts was quite common. blacking, likewise. russeting was sometimes used, and of course, gilding and silvering were used too.

    bluing of blades was fairly uncommon, but happened more often in the 18th C. partly, as any bluing on the blade will be worn away in use.
    that said, its theoretically possible, if you have a kiln that can sit at exactly 295 degrees C for an area big enough to do a swordblade, its possible to do a heat soak for tempering which will turn the blade a vivid peacock blue...
    but if any area is 10 degrees hotter, it'll start to turn grey-blue. 10 degrees colder, it'll be a purple. I'm sure you can imagine how hard it is to do this on a longsword blade.
    here's an illustration shoing a gilded sword and gilded and blued armour, from Paulus Hector Mair, though.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)21:55 No.14849730
         File1304819746.jpg-(27 KB, 532x800, G28075 France 19th.jpg)
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    >>14849716 but happened more often in the 18th C. partly, as any bluing on the blade will be worn away in use.

    ...and how the fuck I forgot about those. Guess I was thinking too much of functionality instead of decoration or something.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)21:57 No.14849747
         File1304819852.jpg-(250 KB, 1200x1793, Battle armour for Archduke Cha(...).jpg)
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    probably be split between 16th C foot, and mid-late 15th C english. possibly with brigandine for the body on the 15th C, as I find brig is slightly better for comfort and fit.

    something along these lines though would'nt go amiss...
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)22:09 No.14849844
    there's a definite lack of codpiece on that.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)22:13 No.14849867
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    that's 'cos its designed for horseback, and you have a 3 inch wooden block witha steel plate in front of your knackers.

    hence my comment about foot armour, which generally has a lower fauld which covers the cods.

    ie, this example. lower fauld and deeper-set tassets
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)22:14 No.14849870
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    You wear something along these lines under it.
    >> Anonymous 05/07/11(Sat)22:16 No.14849889
         File1304821018.gif-(969 KB, 420x717, Arming_Knight-Animated.gif)
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    that's more mid 14th C to early-mid 15th. by the late 16th, voiders were tiny, if they were used at all.

    pic related, english armour of the mid to late 15th.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)00:45 No.14851106
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)06:58 No.14854144
         File1304852290.jpg-(18 KB, 150x211, mailmaker.jpg)
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    Mail InfoBump.

    Ok, we're going to cover useful chainmail. Chainmail is a Victorian-ish coined term, but I'm using it because mail can be confusing, and maille suggests I'm in the SCA and pronounce "Ye Old-E Shop-p-E". Useful chainmail means the links aren't butted. Butted chainmail means the circles of wire ("links", again potentially confusing terminology on the net )are just formed and left there with a tiny gap. It's a lot easier than trying to secure the links, and therefore used by many reenactors, larpers etc because it's cheaper. But it's weak - the links will open and the chainmail fall apart. Especially if you've been stabbed, but also just under the mail's own weight, especially on a big free hanging section. Reenactors call it "mail moths"
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)07:10 No.14854204
         File1304853034.jpg-(370 KB, 800x639, eMuseumPlus.jpg)
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    The links in a "real" piece of mail are going to either be butted, solid, or riveted. Solid means the links are a solid piece of metal - historically, it seems they were either cut out of a sheet of metal via two disc punches, one slightly smaller than the other, or else a wire link was overlapped and forge-welded.

    Riveted is the useful one, since joining two solid links together can only be done by magicians :P So you normally (for 4-in-1, the overwhelmingly common European pattern for chainmail) have one riveted link looped through four solid ones. And each solid link has four riveted ones through it.

    To rivet a link, you flatten at least the overlap of the link and put a hole in the overlap. Use a drift, not punch, for the hole or you'll lose material and strength. Then you stick a rivet through, and apply pressure via a hammer or a pair of pliers, until the rivet's set.

    There are historical all-riveted pieces of chainmail, too.

    Rivetting switched from being done with round rivets (like tiny, short shanked nails) to wedges (little triangles, with slits in the link to rivet through) in about the fourteenth century.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)07:18 No.14854228
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    So, the useful stuff. What mail's like, and how you can do better with it than most.

    It's like cloth, especially with half-decently sized (i.e. under 10mm diameter) links. It folds, it almost pours, which can make a shirt in your hands easy to drop. This makes it very comfortable compared to a piece of sheet armour that's not quite fitted to you.

    It is very good at stopping sharp hurty things. Ignore Deadliest Warrior and the SCA. It's not invulnerable, but historical mail is tough stuff, and will stop a lot of even piercing attacks.

    What would I like to see more of with chainmail? Decent tailoring. Fewer sleeves hanging off people's arms by a foot, and less blousing. Since chainmail will open or close up to fit people's torsos under gravity, people seem happy to ignore fit. Which makes sleeves look ridiculous.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)07:52 No.14854368
    I would definitely be wearing a good belt to distribute the weight and some decent padding underneath too. But I agree - there is a reason chainmail was used for so long by so many people. Stuff bloody worked.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)08:09 No.14854443
    This is a question I'm sure a lot of people are asking:

    Mr. Smith, where's a good place to begin forging for the curious? I'd like to become a Dabbling Armourer in addition to being Competent Book keeper and Organiser.

    I'd like to make a bevor and sallet someday.
    I have very basic knowlege of woodwork, and I've made models, as has every fa/tg/uy.

    Go step by step.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)08:14 No.14854474
         File1304856855.jpg-(122 KB, 533x640, wallace collection.jpg)
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    Couters, son, couters. The little shoulder-pad things. Need minimal work, but let you get the basics of cutting, dishing and shaping, and finishing (planishing, polishing, heat treatments if you wanna) done.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)08:39 No.14854622
    Did you start with leather or proceed directly to metal?
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)08:45 No.14854681
    Pro tip
    dont try to make swords
    Make flanged maces, they are superior to swords in every way
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)08:59 No.14854751
    Metal, since leather armour is basically only for LARPers.

    You're probably going to need to learn a little leatherworking for strapping plates together though.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)09:07 No.14854795
    but... swords are so pretty
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)09:21 No.14854873
         File1304860876.jpg-(68 KB, 550x680, badass.jpg)
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    When you're facing multiple, unarmoured opponents with a variety of weapons then a longsword (or for that matter a quarterstaff) is awesome. Suddenly those wide cuts and wierd Italian guards come in useful.

    Actually, fuck that. Pole-axes. Pole-axes everywhar.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)09:22 No.14854885
    pole axe with longsword hidden in haft
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)09:24 No.14854893
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    "Techniques of Medieval Armor Reproduction" is widely available in Yarrrrr format. I would feel bad about this. But fuck Brian R Price.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)09:27 No.14854905
         File1304861258.jpg-(14 KB, 530x421, Combination_Mace_an_157921s.jpg)
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    Now you're thinking in humours.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)09:32 No.14854932
    Forever Poleaxes. Still, we must assume that swords (in all their designs and used in all their styles) were useful because we wouldn't have kept using them if they weren't. Always take the right weapon for the right job - and sometimes that weapon will be a sword.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)09:43 No.14854985
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    I get where you're coming from, but I'll just add a few qualifiers. Sometimes the reason why people kept using things was because they functioned as a status object, rather than because they expected that they'd be using them as a weapon (I'm looking at you, C18th japanese swords).
    Also, you won't always know what that situation will be, and so you might consider getting a weapon that you know will be ok in most, like a longsword. And you've also got to take into account things like cost, ease of getting one, the difficulty of having it repaired, maintenance, depth of training and so on.

    Which is why I maintain that the quarterstaff (also known as the fairly long stick) is one of the most overlooked weapons in Historical European Martial Arts. I think it's Silver who says something along the lines of 'You want to learn how to fight with a longsword? Well, you know how to fight with a quarterstaff, and you know how to fight with a sworde. Put the two together and anything that you can't work out isn't worth knowing unless you're in a fencing school.'
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)09:44 No.14854989
    But yeah. Opinions are like arseholes.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)10:28 No.14855197
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    Dat ass
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)10:29 No.14855201
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    >Couters, son, couters

    I think you mean Spaulders.

    the couter is the elbow. and they're tricky bastards to make.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)10:38 No.14855238
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    1. Cut out the plates.
    2. Punch the holes that are marked on the patterns.
    3. Finish the plate edges and corners.
    4. Dish the shoulder plate
    5. Shape the first lames to fit the shoulder plate and the other lames to fit in the one before it.
    6. Heat Treating (Optional)
    * The outside surface of the plates should be fairly smooth before doing any heat treating. Put a medium (around a 220 grit) finish on the outside of any plate that has any marring on it.
    * Heat each plate to 1575F/860C in a kiln and quench them in water. You need to quench the plates within a few seconds of opening the kiln.
    * If you want a polished finish or a blackened (fire scale) finish then skip this step. If you want to heat blue the plates then put a medium (around a 220 grit) finish on the outside of the plates. This assumes that you would like to leave the fire scale on the inside as a rust barrier.
    * Heat each plate to 600F/315C in a kiln for 30 minutes to temper the plates so they will be somewhat flexible and not crack when struck. It is very important that the temperature stays within 10 degrees or so of what you set it to. If you don't know for sure that the temperature control works correctly on your kiln then you will want to check it with an oven thermometer that can measure to 650F/350C (don't over heat the thermometer).

    # If you want a polished finish on the plates you should do that now.
    # Rivet the shoulder plate and the lames to the leather straps. Be sure to use washers between 1/2" and 3/4" in diameter.
    # Add the straps and the holes at the top for tying the spaulders on. Grommets on the holes used to tie them on will help keep the ties from breaking.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)10:41 No.14855251
         File1304865683.jpg-(119 KB, 1123x400, Spaulders.jpg)
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    and the finished result:
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)10:50 No.14855308
         File1304866259.jpg-(185 KB, 1010x1200, European_Helmets_1000-1600.jpg)
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    personal notes on making this sort of armour:

    round washers on the leathers are technically ahistorical. originally, they used square sections of steel - offcuts of the metal from the parts.

    Rivetting: use a pair of strong bolt-cutters/snips/pliers, and snip the rivet very short. you only need 2mm poking up at most. then use a ball-pein (or a share pein) on one edge, then on the opposite edge, to splay the rivet. you dont want a long rivet shank poking up, as it'll bend and deform instead of musrooming down. Common mistake.

    for your first pair of spaulders, just use mild steel. Hell, use aluminium sheet, and just practice the hammering to dish the shoulder peice smoothly. then do mild. once you've got the skills to shape it, you can think about using heat treatment on carbon steel.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)11:20 No.14855526
         File1304868053.jpg-(25 KB, 800x600, rondeldaggertod.jpg)
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    As we're feeling creative, I'm going to tell you how to make the best rondel dagger simulator that having no money can buy, for sparring, drilling and associated HEMA.

    Step 1: Decide how long you want it to be. According to Wikipedia, they can be anything from 20-50cm. Personally I find that anything as long as your fore-arm is pretty unweildy.
    Step 2: Get a piece of wood, plastic or something else fairly study, about two-fingers wide and about two-thirds as long as the length of your dagger-like-object. Make sure that there are no sharp edges on it. For this I use broken bits of Shinai, sand-papered down.
    Step 3: Get a newspaper. Personally, I use the campus rag, but I suppose that the ideal building material would be a broadsheet, if you read the Torygraph.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)11:21 No.14855534
         File1304868099.jpg-(340 KB, 854x1241, Codex-I-6-4-2-74v.jpg)
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    Step 4: Roll the Newspaper around the stick, to slightly longer than the length you want. Then use duct-tape to secure it. Take one end, and fold it in or over to form a cap on the tube. Secure this will with duct-tape. Take the other end, where there will be a space of a few inches in the tube where there isn't the stick. Get a bread-knife, or whatever's to hand, and slice down the length of the tube. Rough it the fuck up, so you're not stabbing someone with a structurally sound cylinder. Then fold the bits of ripped paper in, and duct-tape it securely.
    Step 4: By this stage, you have what we call in the trade a 'Dong-like-object'. To make it more dagger like, use silver rather than black duct-tape, and different tape for the grip. Now take a tsuba, one of the rings that form the guard on the smashed shinai you used earlier, or another ring of hard material, and slide it down your dong-like-object. When there's enough room for a grip, and possibly a bit more, secure it in place with moar duct-tape. Secure everything with duct-tape. That stuff is awesome. Try and make sure that you don't have any sharp folds sticking out through. Oh, and in a pinch parcel-tape will work too. The emphasis is on cheap.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)11:22 No.14855535
         File1304868145.jpg-(129 KB, 1472x1200, daggertrainers.jpg)
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    I don't have a camera at the moment, so prepare for awesome scanning powers. And awesome writing-with-a-mouse skillz.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)11:23 No.14855546
         File1304868190.jpg-(77 KB, 600x450, rondeldagger.jpg)
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    Congradulations. You know have a training tool which is safe to stab, as the tip is squishy. It's also fairly sturdy, so you can do blocks or locks with it, unlike rubber training daggers. If you're going to full on sparring, you might want to put a mask or goggles on, but otherwise it's safe as fuck. If the other guy is wearing a mask, put on gloves, otherwise the mask will cheese-grater your knuckles.Eventually the solid core will tear through the newspaper and be in danger of stabbing someone, so keep an eye on that and be prepared to re-build them.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)11:28 No.14855588
    i love you
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)11:39 No.14855669
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    I love you too, anon. No homo.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)12:02 No.14855839
         File1304870525.jpg-(18 KB, 300x198, talhoffer dagger length.jpg)
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    I've had good results with just newspaper. Makes me happier to play hard without a mask or gloves. Of course, eventually it breaks down and you're out 0p for the Metro and 2p's worth of parcel tape.

    p.s. I tend to like on a little longer than my forearm + hand grip, but I'm aware that's longer than most.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)12:24 No.14856015
    well done you guys.
    you just re-invented the millwall brick.

    personally, I just use a 18-inch ash wood dowel, with a bit of shaping on it to make it pretty, and leather rondels.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)12:35 No.14856095
         File1304872525.jpg-(150 KB, 1363x895, messer.jpg)
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    Not really. A brick's designed to be folded as tight as possible so it can hurt someone. Ours was designed to collapse before, say, a rib :P

    Stand by for photos of the messer guard I've been mocking up for a rattan stick :P
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)12:36 No.14856102
    Re-invention is the mother of all necessity.
    Oh, wait.

    Personally I'm not too bit a fan of dowels. I like to actually be able to stab people when you're practicing stabbing, and equally want to try a technique against the correct stimuli (ie, a block against a committed attack).
    I mean, with dagger's there's no reason not to train with aliveness and intent. Training it 'dead' for safety reasons ends up with bullshido, martially unsound interpretations like

    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)12:53 No.14856224
         File1304873625.jpg-(240 KB, 2660x1212, messersim1.jpg)
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    So, what do you get when you combine a 28" escrima baston, some washing machine hose, a small amount of cardboard, and a packing peanut?

    A terrible messer simulator, but it'll at least help with blade alignment, and it cost about a fiver apiece.

    Pictured before it was covered in ducttape with five pennies attached to the "pommel"
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)13:06 No.14856338
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    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)13:39 No.14856646
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)14:37 No.14857275
    how do you make slots for your (s)haft to go into, as on an arrowhead or bill hook?
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)14:40 No.14857313
         File1304880044.jpg-(66 KB, 720x480, 208801_10150553851775386_74921(...).jpg)
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    For a socket:

    Forge it into a flat sheet, then roll it into a tube.
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/08/11(Sun)16:34 No.14858428
    Bump for a thread that's lasted three days and remained awesome the entire way through!

    Let's raise our tankards to /tg/!
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)16:44 No.14858509
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    here have a cloak
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)17:32 No.14858942
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    cant do without a hat to go with it.
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/08/11(Sun)18:37 No.14859575
    I gotta say, the thought of a suit of armor with a helmet that incorporates a metal top-hat is just..awesome.
    >> one-eyed hermit 05/08/11(Sun)18:39 No.14859599
         File1304894345.jpg-(496 KB, 900x600, 1299296036881.jpg)
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    we shall fight them with cannons!
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)18:43 No.14859638
         File1304894602.jpg-(111 KB, 724x1000, BokkoVol01Chap06Page134.jpg)
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    the page is from a manga about a man who was part of a group dedicated to defending citys from any attacker. This page shows his answer to not having enough metal for proper spearheads.

    do you think this would work?
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)19:20 No.14859922
    Might work better than just sharpened wooden sticks, but probably nowhere near as good as a proper spearhead.
    >> Anonymous 05/08/11(Sun)23:18 No.14862830
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)06:03 No.14866181
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    Bump for a thread of epic win.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)06:43 No.14866343
    It'll work better than diagonally cut bamboo, that's for certain. Any tip is better than no tip.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)07:45 No.14866650
         File1304941538.jpg-(218 KB, 1000x1583, (MS Dresd.C.93 C.94)_Page_431_(...).jpg)
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    We do not sow.

    But we do reap.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)07:58 No.14866708
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    So, what's your preferred "style" of historical armour? I've been thinking about the distant future, when I'll have time and money to kit up, and I've decided that as cool as it is, I don't want a c.1450 suit of gothic or English plate. Largely because all my WotR reenacting friends have them :P

    Instead, I want either a c.1510 Nuremburg suit (aka the medieval iron man owl-faced sallet black suit in Glasgow) or a c.1290 coat-of-plates, mail, flat topped kite and great helm kit. Probably the latter for cost reasons :(
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)08:26 No.14866867
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    Doesn't want a gothic harness because everyone's doing it.

    Goddam medieval hipsters...
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)09:04 No.14867028
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    Bump for JUSTICE!
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)09:24 No.14867125
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    You have my sword...
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)09:32 No.14867174
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    And my bow...

    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)09:53 No.14867338
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    personally, I rather like later 16th C foot harnesses. but I like brigandine too.

    I'm not insane enough to make the 16th C brigs like this though
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:02 No.14867393
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    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:08 No.14867443
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    Scotland reporting!
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:09 No.14867453
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    WotR re-enactors, reporting in!
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:10 No.14867462
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    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:13 No.14867484
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    well up on my list of "things I need to make" are more pollaxes...

    for those in the UK, one really good supplier for hafts for pollaxes: John Lewis department stores. among the assorted pine tat, they sell straight-grain ashwood poles for curtains, etc - and its *damn* good wood. if you're only trying to get hold of 1 haft, I'd reccommend taking a look in there. comes in 1m 50 and 1m 80 lengths, 30mm dia, perfect to be planed down to an inch square.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:13 No.14867487
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    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:16 No.14867506
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    >stash of originals on tables.

    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:16 No.14867508
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    Life plan:
    Graduate into unemployment.
    Make pole-arms from department store furnishings.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:18 No.14867524
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    I think I've just found the evil guys for my next campaign.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:23 No.14867549
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    The Towton anniversary thing. Right building ID, though :P
    >> Inconspicuous Steve !!Yxt3tGtGN/W 05/09/11(Mon)10:28 No.14867584
    Crowbars and large broom handles, all day, every day.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:32 No.14867616
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    Ah. thought I recognised the tables.

    God, I need to get out more.

    I'm just wondering, if I'm insane enough to sit with a block of wax (or clays) and sculpt up a pollaxe head with a hammer face, and a backspike that's a gargoyle/grotesque sticking its tongue out. could be fun to do.

    when I finish the replica of this rondel.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:47 No.14867732
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    >Life plan:
    >Graduate into unemployment.

    ah, so you're a fine art student?

    perfectly qualified, then. :P
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)10:51 No.14867758
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    Humanities ;P
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)11:20 No.14867935
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    oh, the huge manatee.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)11:24 No.14867962
    Best finish I've ever seen on an SCA kit :P

    SCA: Because why else would hauberks come in XXXXL?
    (but yeah, there are enough fat vikings in Euro reenactment too)
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)11:32 No.14868020
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    that was pretty much what I thought on first seeing that - "oh, look, the SCA'ers finally have a historical precedent for their waddling mountains of blubber"

    I mean, ok, the SCA does have some great elements - its ability to be open and inclusive for so many people to just get involved is something I wish european reenactment could have... but god, they have some right lardy bastards. Cant see 95% of them fitting into this.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)11:48 No.14868128

    In part, it comes from not having to run around much, even when fighting.

    And besides, there were plenty enough tubby buggers in armor back in the day. It's just that there were far fewer suits (and fewer of them) than there was people who actually needed to fit and fight in armor...which generally was slimming the old-fashioned way. Sweat and labor.

    Being a LARPfag who has to run around in his armor, I tend to appreciate the lighter stuff.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)11:53 No.14868164
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    Speaking of the SCA, http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=133693 manged to put me entirely off their LARPing. I mean, I have nothing against dressing up in armour, pretending to be knights and walloping eachother with sticks, but DAMN there seem to be major dickheads in that organisation.

    The principles it origionally developed from, that of sixties hippies having a laugh, seems cool. It's just a shame that the organisation's weight seems to have warped the American medieval re-enactment/HEMA scene around it.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:04 No.14868227
    all oganisations have dickheads.
    WMA? John Clements.
    SCA? well, read that thread for a few of 'em.

    and so on.

    people are arseholes all over the world.
    Better to go along, enjoy yourself, and laugh at the cunts, and enjoy the company of the good people.
    or at least, that's my philosophy. Had enough of politicking from LARP'ers years ago, and turned my back on that crowd.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:04 No.14868228
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    >there were plenty enough tubby buggers in armor back in the day.
    >The male lay-elite of Western Europe during the medieval and renaissance periods were physically unfit when of militarily active age

    FTFY, and citation needed. Hell, Henry VIII was still fit into his late thirties, it's only when he stopped competing and dancing, while keeping up the 5k+ calorie intake he used to be able to justify, that he balooned out.
    Sir Tubsalot on the battlefield is a modern invention.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:07 No.14868242

    And I got my fill of reenactors politicking.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:13 No.14868267
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    Eh, John Clements has been ostracized by the rest of the HEMA community for over a decade and has people leaving his organisation in droves, while the people in that thread run around with titles. Hell, I don't know of any WMA groups that organise their leadership according to who wins at competitions either.

    But yeah, politics. If you want to engage with the community of people engaged in the same hobby then you have to deal it to some degree or another. But that's part of the reason why the fech/tg/uy threads exist, so people can vent with relative anonymity.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:15 No.14868272

    Actually, your average SCAdian won't even consider themselves as LARPing- they predate the term. "LARP" in the USA = kids whapping each other with poorly made boffer weapons to the average SCAdian.

    (The ones that actually LARP know better.)
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:24 No.14868347
    Right. I don't have the time, money or energy to invest in a proper "workshop" of sorts or to make an entire suit of armour at this moment in my life (even though i'd LOVE to) so here's what i'm thinking.

    If I can make a single gauntlet, I'm satisfied. It doesn't have to be beautiful or shiny whatever. Can I make it work by using regular tools (hammers and pliers from dad's toolbox), a simple makeshift forge and junk sheet metal? I understand it won't be anywhere near professional by a longshot, I just want to make a goddamn gauntlet.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:25 No.14868352
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    *shrug* People pretending to be knights, hitting eachother with pretend weapons. Is it role-playing? Yes. Is it Live Action? Yes. Then to me it's LARP, regardless of whether the SCAdians like that term.

    Hell, nothing against LARP either - it looks like fun. I consider lots of re-enactors to be LARPers with a dedication to period material culture. I'm a neck beard posting on 4chan - that shit looks like fun and I'd love to give it a go.

    But it strikes me that the SCA has everything I dislike about LARPing, together with none of the things that I like about HEMA, it isn't focused on the side of re-enacting I admire, and has some pretty heavyweight twats in it.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:39 No.14868451

    With the right steel to start with, you can even cold forge it. It won't be as sturdy as tempered steel in the end, nor as easy to manipulate as hot steel, but it's doable.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:43 No.14868474
    I see... Doesn't sound so difficult, just best prepare myself to have my gauntlet kindof ugly, a wee bit flimsy and annoying to make.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:49 No.14868510

    I look at it this way- the SCA in a lot of ways originally was a compromise- they wanted "tournament melee" combats, but the idea of clubbing each other with what (at the time) were prohibitively expensive pieces of gear was right out.

    Wooden clubs were historically accurate enough (and heck, still are) for that sorta thing, and it also meant people could use lighter materials without getting mangled.

    The problem is that over time, necessity became tradition, and tradition bred traditionalists. Those are your overblown asses that take things WAAAAAY too seriously and don't call a spade a spade.

    I'm OK with SCAdians calling their stuff what they want to. They came before LARPing, and if they want to see what they do as something different, I understand completely. SCA events really ARE a different animal from the LARPs I've done for decades, and people that don't do both already are often confused by those differences.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:50 No.14868517
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    it'll be tough with pliers - they're not used.

    what you'll need is snips to cut metal out. I actually made a few of my first practice peices from the sides of PC cases that were to be thrown out for re-cycling. cheap steel, but does the job when you're just practicing. wont hold up for actual reenactment combat, but for larp or making for fun, fine.

    for rivets, you can use small mild steel nails cropped short at a pinch.

    you need a ball-pein hammer, though, so you can curve metal. a flat faced hamemr wont do that. Pic related. will cost you all of £4-5 tops.

    sandbag for dishing into is the easier approach, quieter too.

    getting gauntlets to work first time out, though is hard.

    I'd strongly reccommend taking a look at the pattern for spaulders posted up earlier. use that to learn to dish shapes. then go to the armour archives and look around for patterns for gauntlets, and with the skills from making spaulders, it'll be easier.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:54 No.14868561
    Noted! Thank you!

    Question about rivets though, I do have nails obviously but (this might be a full-retard question) how do rivets work? a small bar of metal you hammer to flatten to ends to the plates lock together while still being able to move?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:58 No.14868595
    check out

    specifically http://www.armuredube.com/armuredube.com/Gantelet_vid%C3%A9o.html

    he uses rivets on the articulations of the finger plates of the gauntlets (I apologize if I fucked up the terminology there)
    But they are essentially what you described, a basic hinge post that you flatten with a hammer to secure.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)12:59 No.14868597
    That link upthread to TOMAR. Go find it. Read it. have questions answered :P
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:01 No.14868610
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    depends on how you rivet it.

    rivets work by deforming. you start off with a mushroom shape - a head on a shaft. sort of a T shape.
    when you hammer into the end of the shaft, that end gets splayed out, so its bigger than the hole in the two peices, and it holds then together - sort of becoming an H shape.

    if you hammer it down hard, that locks the two peices together, solid.
    hammer it lightly, and they get held together by the rivet, but will pivot around it.

    in more advanced parts, like gauntlets, and later arms, you make one of the two parts to rivet not a hole, but a slot, so the rivet (and the plate its attached to) can slide a little bit. that's how you have a little bit of side-to-side movement in gauntlet wrists, etc.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:01 No.14868611
    Yep. Imagine that you want to join two bits of metal together, before nuts and bolts were easy to make. You make two holes, and put a rivet through - think of it as a blunt nail, or an unthreaded screw. You then turn the pieces over, and smash down on the other side of the rivet, flattening it. The two pieces can rotate about the join, but are securely connected.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:04 No.14868646
    Fantastic. I'll hunt down some items and material and start reading a bunch of stuff.

    All I want is a gauntlet. I've always wanted to be a Knight ever since I was a little boy, but my primary school teacher laughed in my face and told me I was born a few hundred years too late.

    But I haven't given up. This gauntlet will be a symbol. A symbol that I am now a Squire, on the way to Knighthood.

    >tionlia England
    Quite, Captcha. For Britannia!
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:07 No.14868667
    Thank you both as well! Looking forward to this. Might make smithing a hobby later in life. Something tough and manly.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:09 No.14868690
    you need a teacher to be a squire.
    plus, you need a willingness to be used as a carrier and cleaner for all the armour, weapons, etc, for the years till you are good enough to be a knight on your own stature.

    Been there. Done that. got the backache.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:11 No.14868710
    Ok fine, I'd consider myself a MODERN Squire. All I have to do is learn horsemanship, historical swordfighting and develop a haughty attitude and make and maintain my own armour.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:12 No.14868719
    Son, I am so proud.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:14 No.14868736
    psh. you're never going to learn if you dont have a teacher. and n teacher's going to have a squire who's not available to be exploited for everything they can do while you rest in a a hot tub with three girls who liked what you were doing in the reenactment display earlier....

    (I might be exaggerating on this, btw :) )
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:16 No.14868756
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    Go and hunt down your nearest re-enactment group, or Historical European Martial Arts group, or SCA group, or that gnarly old biker with the workshop under the embankments. Be perfectly open about what you want, they should be about whether they can help you achieve that. Take up carpentry, learn how to work leather, learn how to sew and make yourself a gambeson.

    Go, be alpha as fuck.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:20 No.14868796

    Heh. "Squire" is a title for someone who's studying under another person, who learned in turn from an elder, and so on down the line. Knight is a title of respect given by others who would be your brothers, thus the term "peerage".

    Not that there aren't folks who end up Sir so-and-so by bootstraps and brow sweat alone, but it's a lot tougher.

    (Whether that's the SCA or any other organization/re-enactment group that has a system of knighthood.)
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)13:32 No.14868892
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    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)15:01 No.14869715
    bumping to keep this thread alive
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)15:13 No.14869840
    Make some Flails

    what you need:
    >Bolt cutters
    >Bolts & Nuts
    >metal pipes


    I made one yesterday, I'd post pictures if my cam worked, it took me 4 mins to make it
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)15:48 No.14870151
    how would one make lamelar armour? I'm sorry, but i want to look like one of the rohirrim. On top of this i think this will be easiest to make with my limited resources, along with chainmail.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)15:54 No.14870207
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    me want look like this, how do basic armour-decoration
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)16:20 No.14870413
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    Got a Laser cutter?

    if not, you're in for a long job.
    effectively, you need to just a few thousand plates of the sort of shape in this pic (pick one you like) in 0.8mm spring steel, or 1.2mm mild steel.
    take each one, and dremel/file the holes so they're smooth edged - run a peice of string through them and see if it catches. if it does, it needs more smoothing.

    then do a search online for how to lace lamellar, and you lace up through each one, with leather thonging, or, if you're a cheat, modern paracord.

    its a long job if you dont have a laser cutter. if you have a laser cutter, use the pattern here, set it to do as many as you can fit in a steel sheet, and you're laughing, as it will smooth the edge being cut.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)16:24 No.14870429
    ouch. talk about running before you can walk!

    erm, best way I can suggest for that is start off making leather bracers for wrists and the likes, for larpers. larpers love leather bracers. get natural vegetan leather, or saddle leather, and learn to work it wet, and then google around for leather tooling. you'll find ways to shape the surface, to emboss it with patterning. it will take a lot of practice to be good - and it'll teach you to work with leather. at that point, you'll likely be ready to start thinking about copying that style.

    if you can, you'll have an order book of larpers wanting copies for years to come though.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)16:26 No.14870441
    Reminds me of a nunchuck my brother made once. Broom handle, chain, 2 curtain hanging hooks.

    It fucking hurts when you get whacked in the face with it (I should know). Perhaps I can turn a broomhandle into a rapier..

    >feeling. egusta
    Indeed cpatcha. this thread makes me feel "ME GUSTA" as well.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)16:28 No.14870459
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    IIRC the decorations there are mostly tooled/embossed leather panels attacked (glued?) to metal armour. Some engraving on the wrist-guards as well by the look of it. Plus whatever they did with the scales, partial gilding perhaps, or just stamping the scales with decorative patterns (some raised decorations on those could probably be good for the protective qualities as well, by increasing the stiffness of the scales).

    A site that goes into making Japanese-style armour, much of which would be lamellar: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)17:23 No.14870790
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    bumping with art
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)17:36 No.14870853

    Or if you're more into actually assembling the armor rather than the parts, Ringlord sells scales.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)17:43 No.14870887
    Ringlord does scale, not lamellar.

    different thing.
    techncally, their scales are pretty iffy too on the historical front.

    you could try

    for laser-cut lams, but they 'aint cheap.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)18:23 No.14871103
    How do I make a Lucerne Hammer?
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)18:29 No.14871144
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    Make sure the shaft goes through the head (like in this pic, behind the big, decorative washer), not the other way around.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)18:34 No.14871166
    Oh, that makes more sense than I imagined it.

    I'm going to make one with 5 spikes on the end and shine it up nice and purdy and call it Lucille.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)18:45 No.14871237
    5 foot - 6' haft. Ash. possibly oak. cut 28mm 1 1/8th" square, then plane it down, towards each end, tapering it to 22mm / 7/8ths" on each end.
    then chamfer the edges of the square, putting chamfers about 6-7mm (1/4inch) wide along each edge.
    make an end-cap with spike, and chisel a step into the base. a modern endcap can be made from a pipe screw endcap, ground to shape. cast/forged in steel is better. Affix it with pinning.

    Head, you want to use forge-work for the end-spike. shape it up, and have two strips of steel hang down from it, peirced for nails. straight square shape nails are best. one of those on each side of the shaft, going through to just before the other side. a rivet going straight through side-to-side is a less effective option.

    forgework or cast a head. des'nt need much material at all in a head, less in the backspike. if its spiked, heat treat and harden, does'nt need that on a hammer face really.

    follow >>14871144 's notes (nice photo btw.) on overlap etc.

    cross-pin is usually a screw bolt.

    a rondel guard is an option, if so, make 4 L shape braces, and dish a 75mm / 3 inch disc. peirce the centre and saw/file out to size. slip it down, mark where you want it to go. take it off, and rivet the braces ot it, then slip back on, and use pins thorugh holes on the brace.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)19:37 No.14871777
    Okay. I am drunk.

    Where in the UK/Europe can I source bone or antler, for a hunting knife handle.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)19:39 No.14871808

    there you go. selection might be a bit limited till october. you're at the wrong end of the year to get antler atm.
    >> Anonymous 05/09/11(Mon)20:04 No.14871923
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